[HN Gopher] Mozilla launching "Thundermail" email service to tak...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Mozilla launching "Thundermail" email service to take on Gmail,
       Microsoft 365
        
       Author : bentobean
       Score  : 143 points
       Date   : 2025-04-02 20:01 UTC (2 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.techradar.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.techradar.com)
        
       | theandrewbailey wrote:
       | This is the best news I've heard of Mozilla in a long time.
        
         | jmclnx wrote:
         | Yes, and maybe timely with many Countries looking to wean
         | themselves off US based.
         | 
         | I wonder if this service can be segregated by region ?
         | 
         | For example, can people in Europe use a service that is fully
         | based in Europe.
        
           | KomoD wrote:
           | You know Mozilla is American right? There's no way for it to
           | be "fully based in Europe" when Mozilla runs it.
        
             | jmclnx wrote:
             | Yes, but I would think there could be multiple services and
             | storage.
        
           | tmtvl wrote:
           | Something like Kolab Now, you mean?
        
           | basisword wrote:
           | >> For example, can people in Europe use a service that is
           | fully based in Europe.
           | 
           | As long as it's still owned by Mozilla it's subject to the
           | whims of the US government.
           | 
           | There are already many good European mail services (e.g.
           | Proton Mail).
        
         | sfRattan wrote:
         | I'm cautiously optimistic. It's certainly the most realistic
         | business plan their leadership has put forward in a long time.
         | 
         | And a Mozilla/Thunderbird based email service is well timed.
         | Microsoft's upgrade (read: downgrade) of the newest version of
         | Outlook, making it a glorified web app, has pissed of a lot of
         | users who aren't the sort to browse hacker spaces but do have
         | to use serious email and calendaring every day for their work.
         | 
         | Even if those folks don't see Thunderbird as an alternative to
         | what Outlook/Exchange was, it'll absolutely be an alternative
         | to what Microsoft is turning Outlook into... [1][2][3]
         | 
         | And there's something devilishly funny about the fact that,
         | because DDG uses Bing on the backend, when I search for
         | articles to cite... Everything that comes up trashing the new
         | Outlook is from MSN.
         | 
         | [1]: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/the-new-outlook-
         | fo...
         | 
         | [2]: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/other/windows-11-takes-
         | small-...
         | 
         | [3]: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/even-microsoft-
         | s-a...
        
           | zie wrote:
           | I thought MSN was not owned by MS anymore, but turns out I
           | was wrong. It's MSNBC that MS divested ownership in. MSN is
           | still 100% owned by MS.
           | 
           | At least they aren't filtering out bad MS news on MSN I
           | guess.
        
       | devwastaken wrote:
       | i would not get an email for a domain that will be up for sale in
       | 10 years. mozilla is not a sustainable org and has lost its core
       | principles. Mozilla best serves people by shutting down and
       | letting younger and better orgs replace it.
        
         | Loudergood wrote:
         | Once I can bring my own domain, I'll be more interested.
        
           | jxjnskkzxxhx wrote:
           | Why does this matter?
           | 
           | I can't pick my own domain when using Gmail, and still works
           | just fine.
        
             | ivanmontillam wrote:
             | It matters because on your own domain you control the MX
             | records (Mail eXchange) servers.
             | 
             | So, if Mozilla Thundermail were to disappear, you can
             | switch servers on the MX record to another email provider
             | with little downtime if done correctly.
             | 
             | You also become the sovereign of your email. Should your
             | Google account get banned (a news like these hit HN once a
             | month), you are left to start over changing email address
             | in every service you use.
             | 
             | Not to mention dead accesses to SSO, because the Google
             | account would be inaccesible by then.
        
             | progman32 wrote:
             | Can't speak for op, but for me it's a question of control.
             | If this service ends up closing or otherwise loses me as a
             | customer, I have to update every single contact and account
             | before I can stop using it. That's not practical. If I
             | bring my own domain, I can switch providers much more
             | easily.
             | 
             | Some people might be ok with losing contact with the long
             | tail after an email provider migration, but I'm not one of
             | those people.
        
             | cosmic_cheese wrote:
             | Owning the domain your email address uses gives you a
             | greater degree of ownership over that email address and
             | makes you service provider agnostic.
             | 
             | Using an @gmail.com address for example, if you decide to
             | move to another service provider at some point or
             | especially if your Google account gets banned, you're stuck
             | manually migrating over however many things you have
             | attached to your address (some of which may not be easy or
             | possible without access to the original address).
             | 
             | In contrast, if your address is on a domain you own, the
             | provider becomes moot. It doesn't matter if you migrate or
             | get banned, you still have your email address, and after a
             | small blip between providers all is as it was.
        
             | RegW wrote:
             | > I can't pick my own domain when using Gmail, and still
             | works just fine.
             | 
             | I do. I've used my own domain with GMail for many years. I
             | moved it there from another provider when Google were
             | giving such things away for free to beta users.
             | 
             | Perhaps I should move on again and avoid the big data
             | kleptomania.
        
         | xandrius wrote:
         | Mozilla is a no-profit foundation, not a company which needs to
         | be sustainable or be profitable.
         | 
         | I agree Mozilla lost its way but I would still hope in them
         | improving over time than trusting yet another for-profit to
         | serve us in the long-term.
        
           | Pharaoh2 wrote:
           | NPOs still need to be financially sustainable/viable. They
           | still need to pay their employees and pay their vendors.
        
             | Y_Y wrote:
             | I think you and GP are saying the same(-ish) thing. A non-
             | profit which has no money cannot continue, and so if it
             | spends more than it takes in then eventually it will have
             | to stop. This may be ok if it's part of the mission, or if
             | they're hoping that a big donation randomly shows up. A
             | normal business whose mission is to make money hasn't got
             | those options.
        
           | Rebelgecko wrote:
           | I might be misunderstanding the org chart but Thunderbird is
           | operated by MZLA Technologies Corporation, which is for-
           | profit (although I guess it's owned by the non profit
           | Mozilla, similar to how openai was?)
        
           | x0x0 wrote:
           | Sure, but this sort of thing (email, plus likely mostly
           | shitty calendaring and contacts) is a very ok business. The
           | fastmail people make a fine living at it (their product is as
           | good as anything outside gmail. If you haven't, you should
           | try it! I'm a happy decade-long customer). But it's not the
           | sort of business that supports the massive employee count
           | that Mozilla has.
        
         | micromacrofoot wrote:
         | sounds more like google to me
        
         | mjrpes wrote:
         | They are using stalwart, another open source product, for the
         | backend stack. So you should be able to host your own server
         | instance with custom domain when it gets built out. Stalwart
         | itself just received a European funding grant to build out the
         | features needed. From Thunderbird announcement:
         | 
         | > Thundermail is an email service. We want to provide email
         | accounts to those that love Thunderbird, and we believe that we
         | are capable of providing a better service than the other
         | providers out there, that aligns with our values. We have been
         | experimenting with this for a while now and are using Stalwart
         | as the software stack we are building upon. We have been
         | working with the Stalwart maintainer to improve its
         | capabilities (for instance, we have pushed hard on calendar and
         | contacts being a core piece of the stack).
         | 
         | https://thunderbird.topicbox.com/groups/planning/T437cd854af...
         | 
         | https://stalw.art/blog/nlnet-grant-collaboration
        
           | Y_Y wrote:
           | > we have pushed hard on calendar and contacts being a core
           | piece of the stack
           | 
           | Imagine maintaining a useful piece of FOSS and then Mozilla
           | shows up and "pushes hard" for some feature they want for a
           | service that's missed the boat by a decade and doesn't even
           | elicit much hope from loyal users (including myself).
        
             | Avamander wrote:
             | That's a bit negative. There are plenty of people that want
             | a full OSS alternative to Gmail, Outlook, Yahoo and others.
             | That includes calendar and contacts.
        
             | mjrpes wrote:
             | Stalwart is unique I think. The whole thing was built by
             | essentially one developer in rust, and it's quite amazing
             | how he has done it in just a few years. He's expressed
             | interest in expanding the software beyond email in the
             | past, and contacts/calendar/files shouldn't be too hard of
             | a challenge for him.
        
       | stirlo wrote:
       | https://thundermail.com
       | 
       | Site is here with waitlist signup. It's also titled "For Those
       | Who Know" and says: >> status beta_signup.is_open=true so perhaps
       | theres a CLI or hidden way to signup immediately?
        
         | hnuser123456 wrote:
         | There's an input field for an email address below that block
         | for me
        
           | Kirby64 wrote:
           | I had to disable uBlock Origin for that to show up.
        
           | mystraline wrote:
           | Turns out, in Firefox mobile, the email submission block
           | isn't present.
           | 
           | I had to open Chrome Mobile to see it.
           | 
           | I hope this, err, 'oversight' isn't indicative of the quality
           | of using Mozilla products.
        
             | riquito wrote:
             | Using Firefox mobile too, it's visible. Could be one of
             | your extensions
        
               | mystraline wrote:
               | Probably Ublock Origin, which is why I use FF mobile.
        
               | Larrikin wrote:
               | It is just you if its not appearing.
               | 
               | I'm using Ad Nauseum which is just UBO but improved with
               | added features and it appears just fine.
        
           | stirlo wrote:
           | Yep. You might need to disable Adblock to have it appear.
           | 
           | I was still hoping for something more than a simple email
           | waitlist signup however. But I didn't find anything obvious
           | hidden in the page that would allow immediate signup
        
         | mvdtnz wrote:
         | That is without a doubt the worst landing page I have ever
         | seen.
        
       | munchler wrote:
       | I've tried to use Thunderbird multiple times over the years, but
       | I always end up with a corrupted mailbox after a week or two, so
       | I go back to Outlook. Is TB finally reliable enough to try again?
       | I'd love to ditch Outlook, but I don't want to be a sucker.
       | 
       | Update: OK, I'm trying it again.
        
         | vasachi wrote:
         | My coworker uses thunderbird since time immemorial, and I don't
         | think it ever corrupted his mailbox.
        
         | spacechild1 wrote:
         | I have been using Thunderbird myself for years and never had
         | any such problems.
        
         | timbit42 wrote:
         | I've used Thunderbird for years and know half a dozen other
         | people using it, including one who has folders with tens of
         | thousands of emails, and have never heard of any data
         | corruption.
        
           | Avamander wrote:
           | The only issue with "large" mailboxes is that Thunderbird
           | tends to become really slow. But this issue plagues other
           | desktop clients as well.
           | 
           | I would love to find an actually performant email client. It
           | shouldn't take like seconds to sort like 100 000 emails. It's
           | a puny number. The time it takes one can read all the emails
           | from disk a thousand times, it's sad.
        
             | rendx wrote:
             | Hate to admit but Apple Mail is the only one I know that
             | has fast (albeit simple) local search even for large
             | mailboxes.
        
             | voltaireodactyl wrote:
             | On Mac I've found MailMate to be excellent in this regard.
        
               | Avamander wrote:
               | I'll check it out, thanks!
        
           | abdullahkhalids wrote:
           | I have used Thunderbird for over a decade.
           | 
           | I have never seen any corruption, but if I have threading on,
           | emails get attached to the wrong thread quite often. It's
           | quite annoying.
        
         | Remnant44 wrote:
         | Thunderbird is my daily driver email client for all my business
         | email for over a decade.
         | 
         | I've never had a single corruption problem in that time, with
         | probably hundreds of thousands of emails. Take that for what
         | its worth.
         | 
         | The only complaint I've ever had is when they redid their UI a
         | year or two ago it got unbearably slow - which improved over
         | the next few iterations until its now fine again.
        
       | brunoqc wrote:
       | Mozilla, let me directly fund Firefox instead please.
        
       | mentalgear wrote:
       | Rooting for mozilla and their privacy-focused services. Been
       | using the email-masking feature (generate forward email
       | addresses) for a while and really like it.
        
         | JadeNB wrote:
         | > Rooting for mozilla and their privacy-focused services. Been
         | using the email-masking feature (generate forward email
         | addresses) for a while and really like it.
         | 
         | I don't know how the privacy of this one will shake out, but
         | the privacy focus on the browser includes allowing them to
         | share your data, so that makes me way less enthusiastic about
         | continuing my investment in their ecosystem.
        
       | ice3 wrote:
       | i wonder what the price will be and if it supports custom domains
        
       | sylens wrote:
       | I hope this service will use JMAP and push the Thunderbird client
       | itself to adopt it
        
         | cycomanic wrote:
         | Yes! I'm a fastmail user and every couple of months I do a
         | survey of JMAP support and come back disappointed.
         | 
         | Speaking about thunderbird, I liked their UI redesign, but it
         | seems they are taking away quite a bit of plugin capabilities,
         | e.g. there used to be the possibility to run firenvim (a plugin
         | to run neovim in the compose window), but that's not possible
         | anymore.
        
         | adduc wrote:
         | > The final launch will be Thundermail, an email hosting
         | service using the open-source Stalwart stack. Users will be
         | able to pick between thundermail.com and tb.pro domains.
         | 
         | If the article is correct, Thundermail will be built using
         | Stalwart[1], which appears to support JMAP
         | 
         | [1]: https://stalw.art/
        
         | hs86 wrote:
         | Is it just JMAP, or why does Fastmail's web app feel so fast? I
         | have moved away from all locally running mail apps to Fastmail
         | and even fetch/alias all my other mail accounts to them because
         | of the much better experience.
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | Earlier: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43554197
        
       | n42 wrote:
       | is there a future where Mozilla buys Kagi and becomes the privacy
       | Google?
        
         | technocratius wrote:
         | Just use Proton
        
           | Avamander wrote:
           | Proton says they care about security and privacy but at the
           | same time makes it impossible to use your own keys or
           | properly export the original emails from your inbox. I really
           | can't take this suggestion seriously.
        
             | kowabungalow wrote:
             | That's not a good argument. The easiest way to undermine
             | security of everyone is to allow portability of keys
             | features. Look for example at where Signal fails and for no
             | benefit to a normal user.
        
               | Avamander wrote:
               | Current email encryption schemes provide no forward
               | security, it's nothing like Signal. Key management has to
               | work totally different.
               | 
               | You're also wrong in the aspect that it would undermine
               | something, you can absolutely export keys from
               | Protonmail, you just can't use your own keys properly.
               | You can't remove all the keys they have generated, you
               | can't use your own client with your own keys, the bridge
               | literally mucks it up. The defaults can be what they are,
               | it's not mutually exclusive in any way.
               | 
               | In the end this restriction undermines the security and
               | privacy for everyone that want to use secure hardware
               | storage. Which is absolutely insane for a service that
               | boasts about these things.
        
               | kowabungalow wrote:
               | I didn't critique their security model, I said you
               | wanting greater convenience to exfiltrate keys and
               | documents, even if its to a system that is more secure
               | for you, is not arguing for better security and privacy
               | in their product.
        
               | Avamander wrote:
               | Your comment makes no sense. You can already export all
               | the keys Protonmail generates (which I don't want to use
               | and neither should I be forced to use). Not allowing the
               | user to use their own provides absolutely no resistance
               | to any kind of exfiltration.
        
         | bigstrat2003 wrote:
         | I certainly hope not. I like Kagi and I don't want Mozilla
         | messing with it.
        
       | ttoinou wrote:
       | Make thunderbird supports a local database with 100k emails with
       | proper search ! Make us pay for that optimization if needed.
       | Email is a big tool of communication for all businesses, Pros who
       | make money daily through emails need to handle tons of emails,
       | we're ready to pay for that
        
         | Avamander wrote:
         | I mentioned the same problem in one other subthread as well.
         | Current hardware is certainly performant enough not to become
         | this sluggish at just 100 000 or so emails. There's actually no
         | reason it shouldn't work well with say a million emails in one
         | inbox.
        
           | xnx wrote:
           | I haven't used Thunderbird in a long time, but regularly used
           | Outlook with multi-gigabye .pst files. Surely sqlite on an
           | SSD would be up to the task of handling at least million
           | emails of average size.
        
             | mmooss wrote:
             | > Outlook with multi-gigabye .pst files
             | 
             | What has been your experience? Mine in trying to use and
             | support it is that Outlook is an Exchange client; PSTs are
             | hacks to meet demand, though they work well enough in
             | limited circumstances. Especially PSTs over a LAN
             | connection are a disaster.
        
               | xnx wrote:
               | The Exchange server hardware was so underpowered (or the
               | software so ill-designed for large mailboxes) that
               | Exchange powered searches would fail, but ones run on the
               | local pst would complete successfully (if slowly). This
               | was on an HDD. SSD would be much faster.
        
               | mmooss wrote:
               | > This was on an HDD. SSD would be much faster.
               | 
               | OT but is that right? SSDs have many advantages but
               | sequential read isn't necessarily one of them. SSDs seek
               | is much faster, but this is ~one file. Throughput can be
               | much faster due to the better interfaces, but is
               | throughput the bottleneck for this kind of search?
        
               | xnx wrote:
               | Good question. Property benchmarking would be required to
               | know for sure. It's probably rare that a multi-gigabyte
               | file would be contiguous on disk, so lots of seeking
               | would probably be required anyway.
        
           | kjkjadksj wrote:
           | Tell that to apple mail. Makes no sense how an app seemingly
           | unchanged since the tiger days when I started using it could
           | still be as performant as it always was on far better
           | hardware. In fact I frequently find it to be the culprit when
           | I wonder what the hell could be spinning my fans on this m3
           | pro just churning over the database.
           | 
           | Iphone version is arguably worse because it also has
           | performance issues but doesn't support inbox rules. Then
           | again those inbox rules often fail to filter emails anyhow.
        
         | isaachinman wrote:
         | We're building what you want.
         | 
         | https://marcoapp.io
        
           | Avamander wrote:
           | Your link does not work?
        
             | isaachinman wrote:
             | Apologies, on mobile. Fixed.
        
           | mmooss wrote:
           | I'd love it - email could use serious tools and refinement -
           | but so many questions: Is it local or hosted? What is the
           | story with privacy? Do you use an existing application (like
           | a Thunderbird fork) or something you created?
           | 
           | Can you / will you integrate other messaging such as SMS,
           | even WhatsApp, etc.? RSS?
        
           | corndoge wrote:
           | It says "all platforms" but does not list Linux. Is Linux
           | support planned?
        
           | scosman wrote:
           | How does it compare to Apple Mail? That's my reference local
           | email client.
        
         | Koffiepoeder wrote:
         | I have a (non-published) plugin that I'm using that is capable
         | of using elasticsearch for indexing & search from within
         | Thunderbird. I never bothered publishing it, since I never
         | really wanted to maintain it/build a business out of it. Would
         | this be something you are interested in, potentially for a
         | small fee?
        
           | ttoinou wrote:
           | It might not work for me for various reasons, but pay a fee
           | to release the source code in the wild for anyone (me or
           | others) to pick it up, yes why not ! Safer if you put a way
           | to contact you on your profile
        
         | RachelF wrote:
         | Use Betterbird. They upgrade Thunderbird and fix bugs.
        
         | miles wrote:
         | > Make thunderbird supports a local database with 100k emails
         | with proper search
         | 
         | Currently working with a Thunderbird database which contains
         | over 300,000 messages and search works quite reliably (once in
         | a blue moon have to switch from "Search Messages..." to "Global
         | Search"), though the emails are stored in Maildir format rather
         | than the default mbox:
         | https://tinyapps.org/blog/202207100700_thunderbird_mbox_to_m...
         | .
        
       | inetknght wrote:
       | So... after the Mozilla/Firefox EULA and TOS fiasco... there's no
       | way in Hell that I'd touch this.
        
       | the__alchemist wrote:
       | As far as I can glean, this is a "me" problem, but does anyone
       | else find Thunderbird's search to be mostly-broken? I.e., will
       | not find emails that should turn up in a query.
        
         | climb_stealth wrote:
         | It helps to sort the results by date rather than relevance.
         | Relevance is the default and the results are all over the place
         | and it does indeed feel utterly broken :)
        
         | cycomanic wrote:
         | I agree, the search is quite bad.
         | 
         | The UI is bad and the results seem to be poor. I don't
         | necessarily have the issue that emails are not in the results,
         | but more that results are too numerous and the only way I can
         | narrow down results is putting more constrains in the UI. What
         | often happens for me is that I search using a several terms or
         | some specific phrases and the search returns tons of results
         | (does it just do an OR between words in the search) and I then
         | end up clicking (why can't the time constraint be a slider?!)
         | through different months (based on what I recall about the
         | timeframe of the email) until I find the email.
         | 
         | When I was using notmuch I recall results being much better.
         | 
         | Another annoyance is that Thunderbird only seems to search
         | locally, i.e. if I don't have some folders downloaded it will
         | not do a server search as well as a local search (maybe there's
         | a setting for it?)
        
         | Avamander wrote:
         | I run grep on Thunderbird's storage directory and it's
         | significantly faster than anything Thunderbird itself attempts.
         | (It also allows finding exact matches, fuzzy search without
         | language "awareness" is disgusting to use.)
        
           | mmooss wrote:
           | That's kind of the point of the Unix text stream philosophy?
           | TB stores as text, and then you can use the best text search
           | tool you have.
           | 
           | Do you use mbox or maildir, out of curiosity?
        
             | Avamander wrote:
             | > That's kind of the point of the Unix text stream
             | philosophy? TB stores as text, and then you can use the
             | best text search tool you have.
             | 
             | To some extent, yes. Though emails are structured text and
             | a bare string search is far from an optimal search
             | strategy.
             | 
             | > Do you use mbox or maildir, out of curiosity?
             | 
             | Whatever the Thunderbird default is.
        
               | mmooss wrote:
               | Thanks and good point about the structured data.
               | 
               | I ask about mbox (one file system file per Thunderbird
               | folder - e.g., one file named Inbox containing all its
               | messages) or maildir (one folder per TB folder,
               | containing one file per message) because it affects
               | search using outside tools that don't understand that
               | folder structure.
               | 
               | I'm wondering how efficient they are: When you search,
               | does grep return an Inbox mbox file at a certain line
               | number, or a maildir file?
        
         | kayson wrote:
         | I've been pretty happy with its search and have never had
         | issues finding emails. The UI isn't great and theres a lot of
         | cruft to filter through but it does work...
        
         | abdullahkhalids wrote:
         | I have found that "Quick Filter Bar" is often much better at
         | searching if you know which folder the email is in.
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | Sounds like Apple Mail so maybe no one gets it right.
        
       | intellectronica wrote:
       | Is this an April Fools leftover?..
        
         | sandyarmstrong wrote:
         | Gmail was also announced on April Fools'...
        
       | timeon wrote:
       | Where are the servers located?
        
       | Y_Y wrote:
       | > >> philosophy
       | 
       | > open_source & privacy_focused & user_controlled
       | 
       | Is their philosophy a bit string? Or maybe this simple mistake of
       | using a bitwise AND is what's gotten Mozilla's mission so
       | corrupted these last many years.
        
       | gruez wrote:
       | The article is pretty light on details so I'm going to ask: why
       | should I get this compared to something like fastmail or
       | protonmail? Does it at least have end to end encryption? Is this
       | just going to be a case of Mozilla partnering with another
       | service provider (eg. mullvad for mozilla vpn), slapping their
       | logo on it, and collecting a royalty?
        
       | pgt wrote:
       | Never forget Mozilla's stance on deplatforming & censorship
       | (since scrubbed from Mozilla's blog):
       | https://web.archive.org/web/20210108215449/https://blog.mozi...
        
         | mvdtnz wrote:
         | Thank you for sharing this, I was completely unaware that this
         | was Mozilla's stance. This is shocking and disappointing to me.
        
         | DecentShoes wrote:
         | Jesus Christ. Maybe I will give in and switch to Chrome.
        
       | sunshine-o wrote:
       | Unless they pull out something really cool and revolutionary this
       | is probably just a fax machine.
       | 
       | Outside of the corporate world email is almost a legacy protocol.
       | Like phone numbers we have one because we need to but do not
       | really use it that much anymore.
       | 
       | I believe email was de facto replaced by WhatsApp, iMessage,
       | Social media and OpenID almost 20 years ago.
       | 
       | Just ask a gen Z or Alpha when was the last time he sent an
       | email.
       | 
       | Now they are gonna try to ride the wave of the Big bad tech
       | escape but Proton has a 10 years lead here.
        
         | mod50ack wrote:
         | OpenID certainly hasn't replaced email. Young people still all
         | need email to sign up for ~anything online - not to mention
         | things like job/school applications or plenty of other real-
         | world things.
         | 
         | What email has become is an identifier and a receptacle for
         | notices. It's not a social platform for young people. But it's
         | very much a thing!
        
       | evolve2k wrote:
       | A few months ago I would have been excited and telling my
       | friends. But no longer. I had long been an outspoken Firefox
       | advocate in my city. Fix your trust issue.
       | 
       | Trust once lost is not easily regained.
        
         | mmooss wrote:
         | That's not my point of view at all, and I have little issue
         | with what happened and have no concern about Mozilla and
         | privacy.
         | 
         | The endless repetition of these comments is becoming spammy -
         | they have nothing to say but the exact same thing again. We get
         | it; you don't need to repeat it. It's like someone writing, at
         | every opportunity, 'I don't trust Meta' and adding nothing
         | more.
        
           | olyjohn wrote:
           | I probably say this too much too, but it feels like just a
           | justification to keep using shiny Chrome. Even though the
           | recent ToS fiasco basically had the same language as Chrome's
           | ToS, and wasn't really as bad as everybody freaked out about.
           | People still just find whatever excuse.
           | 
           | Like fine if you like Chrome, just admit you love Chrome
           | because it's shiny.
        
       | mmooss wrote:
       | I hope for the best but plan for the worst:
       | 
       | I don't think people want to change email addresses very often.
       | How do I know Mozilla will still be doing this in 5-10 years?
       | (Edit: Others have pointed out that, if we can bring our own
       | domains, technical users can retain their address. However, for
       | non-technical users that's not an option.)
       | 
       | Also, I'm not sure about charging a fee at the start (except for
       | TB contributors) and providing a free tier later - reverse of the
       | usual way of launching a product. Maybe this is a soft launch to
       | shake out the bugs and build a little momentum, and you can pay
       | if you want to take part?
       | 
       | Mozilla could do something awesome here. I hate to say it, but
       | here is a chance to start fresh and make big, legacy-breaking
       | changes to Thunderbird. The new audience - which should become
       | the vast majority if they are successful - won't care if it's not
       | like the old Thunderbird (possibly unlike many on HN). Here is a
       | chance to do something special and the mail client is all most
       | users see or understand.
        
         | fracus wrote:
         | Do people still use Thunderbird client? I would guess 99% of
         | people use their browser.
        
         | ferfumarma wrote:
         | I'm deeply skeptical as well.
         | 
         | If firefox doesn't have enough compelling ideas and features in
         | its primary domain of the browser, then how are they going to
         | develop a new mail competency in such a complete way that they
         | can take on gmail?
         | 
         | Whether they succeed or fail, this will sap resources from the
         | browser team. And it seems _overwhelmingly_ likely to fail.
        
         | mdasen wrote:
         | > I'm not sure about charging a fee at the start and providing
         | a free tier later
         | 
         | I think this is a smart move. Email isn't a platform where you
         | need to conquer the world to be successful. Hey has been doing
         | great business with an only-paid model. Might as well serve the
         | paying customers first and build up revenue.
         | 
         | Also, whenever you're launching something new, you generally
         | need to limit onboarding. Google did it with Gmail, Bluesky did
         | it with their service. You can't have a flood of 10 million new
         | users all at once before you've had a chance to scale things.
         | Seems reasonable to let paying users in first given that email
         | doesn't have network lock-in effects.
         | 
         | I think there is reasonable skepticism around how committed
         | Mozilla is to this. However, I think that starting with the
         | paid tiers is a smart move given that they'd have to limit
         | signups initially anyway.
        
         | palata wrote:
         | > I don't think people want to change email addresses very
         | often.
         | 
         | You probably know this already, but people should have their
         | own domain. Then they can change provider without changing the
         | address.
        
       | evolve2k wrote:
       | A few months ago I would have been excited and telling my friends
       | and community. But no longer. My long term endorsement is over.
       | 
       | Trust once lost is not easily regained.
       | 
       | Fix your trust issue.
        
       | 9283409232 wrote:
       | Mozilla should've been what Proton. A company that sells privacy
       | focused services. They went off chasing too many geese and now
       | they are panicking. I don't think I would trust this service at
       | this point.
        
       | varispeed wrote:
       | Mozilla is American and with what's going in the world, we need a
       | service like Gmail served by non-US entity.
       | 
       | Many businesses are looking away from US based services.
       | 
       | If Mozilla moved headquarters to Switzerland, UK or Norway, then
       | maybe it would make sense.
        
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