[HN Gopher] Glubux's Powerwall (2016)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Glubux's Powerwall (2016)
        
       Author : bentobean
       Score  : 338 points
       Date   : 2025-04-01 15:49 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (secondlifestorage.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (secondlifestorage.com)
        
       | koolba wrote:
       | While very interesting, that seems like it would be one hell of a
       | fire hazard as well. Especially for the ones that are tightly
       | packed in the middle of each bundle.
        
         | misnome wrote:
         | Yeah, my first thought on reading the article was that it
         | didn't detail his fire control systems..
        
           | extrapickles wrote:
           | They keep the power pack in a shed away from anything too
           | flammable. They could lose the shed, but it would be unlikely
           | to take the house with it.
        
           | rtkwe wrote:
           | That's the neat part about lithium fires you just can't,
           | they're self oxidizing so there's not much you can do to
           | definitively put them out the best option is usually to flood
           | them with water to cool them down and contain the damage they
           | cause.
        
             | em3rgent0rdr wrote:
             | Yeah. Commercial home solar battery power as I understand
             | is done with safer chemistries, such as lithium _iron_
             | phosphate, which while they have a lower energy density
             | (which is not a big downside for a stationary building) don
             | 't have the thermal runaway issues that labtop lithium ion
             | batteries have. I wouldn't want to live next door to the
             | DIY labtop battery array enthusiast.
        
               | rtkwe wrote:
               | He seems to be doing it fairly safely by having it housed
               | in a building a whole 50m away from the main dwelling. A
               | fire from there could spread to the house or elsewhere
               | but it's no longer a metal fire so it's a lot easier to
               | deal with and just contain the fire in/around the shed.
               | I'd probably add a nice gravel buffer around it to help
               | that and live in a reasonably well hydrated part of the
               | country so there's not as big a fire risk from embers.
        
               | em3rgent0rdr wrote:
               | Great if you are a skilled electrical engineer who owns a
               | bunch of land somewhere that doesn't have any fire risk.
        
         | johnisgood wrote:
         | > Despite being an unusual system, with recycled and homemade
         | components, no major problems have been reported, such as fires
         | or swollen batteries, which is a common issue with some second-
         | hand electronic devices.
         | 
         | That said, one should be prepared for it.
        
           | rtkwe wrote:
           | AFAIK 18650s like he's using never swell as they're in hard
           | metal shells not pouches like most consumer electronics, so
           | they don't have the ability to swell until they're
           | catastrophically damaged. He's built a small building 50m
           | away from his house to hold it anyways so it can probably be
           | safely allowed to just burn, it's not like fire departments
           | have much better options than waiting for it to burn out and
           | hoping it doesn't reignite anyways.
        
             | bigfatkitten wrote:
             | > AFAIK 18650s like he's using never swell as they're in
             | hard metal shells not pouches like most consumer
             | electronics, so they don't have the ability to swell until
             | they're catastrophically damaged.
             | 
             | They do swell, but they swell at the terminals rather than
             | at the sides.
        
         | tomxor wrote:
         | They don't look tightly packed compared to the constraints of
         | being inside laptops and phones where they are given
         | millimetres to expand.
        
         | theandrewbailey wrote:
         | > This growth forced the creator to build a separate warehouse,
         | located about 50 meters from his home, to store the batteries
         | and the new charge controllers and inverters.
         | 
         | The hazard appears to be accounted for.
        
           | TheBlight wrote:
           | Yeah wind has never been known to blow fires 50 meters.
        
             | Sharlin wrote:
             | Or toxic exhaust for that matter.
        
             | timbit42 wrote:
             | How do you know the prevailing wind direction in his
             | location?
        
               | PhunkyPhil wrote:
               | How do you know that a favorable wind direction will
               | eliminate the risk of a fire hazard?
        
         | elif wrote:
         | My thoughts as well, and that's coming from someone who sleeps
         | directly above 2 powerwalls
        
           | bee_rider wrote:
           | Sounds like it is out in a shed.
           | 
           | Also the guy who made this battery pack has the incentive to
           | not burn down his house, whoever made yours has the incentive
           | of one more day on the assembly line... I dunno, wouldn't
           | judge him too harshly.
        
             | em3rgent0rdr wrote:
             | Commercial solar home battery use safer battery chemistries
             | which don't experience thermal runaway like lithium ion
             | labtop batteries do..
        
       | ge96 wrote:
       | If you like this stuff Jehu Garcia on YT does this
       | 
       | Those scooters in the streets get discarded/buy em in bulk and
       | re-use the batteries for ex
        
         | RajT88 wrote:
         | Where can I get one? I have seen that the Chinese manufacturers
         | who made the scooters for Bird, etc. have been taking advantage
         | of the discarded units by selling conversion kits to turn them
         | into normal eScooters.
        
           | ge96 wrote:
           | I'm not sure where, I've just seen some of his videos where
           | he takes apart scooters
        
           | tecleandor wrote:
           | From what I've seen, some people buy them from Police or city
           | auctions. Scooters that are "towed" because they're left in
           | an inappropriate place, often are not picked by the companies
           | that own them, so they're left for the city to auction them
           | or whatever.
        
         | silisili wrote:
         | Sitting congressman Massie also has a few videos on YT about
         | buying a wrecked Model S to scavenge its battery to power his
         | house. Not quite the same as it's just one big battery, but
         | cool idea nonetheless.
         | 
         | They are rather short and show the setup more than the
         | construction and nitty gritty, IIRC
        
       | moffkalast wrote:
       | 1000 years is pretty old for a battery, I'm surprised they still
       | work /s
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | I wonder if we've had to re-learn how to make batteries like
         | they did in the 11th century similar to how we had to re-learn
         | the Roman concrete formula.
        
       | thecosas wrote:
       | Anyone have links to some of the actual posts this person made?
       | The article is a bit light on actual details, sourcing, etc.
       | beyond citing their username/alias.
        
         | jerlam wrote:
         | The link in the article to the forum is broken, here's the
         | correct one:
         | 
         | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/glubuxs-powe...
        
         | xnx wrote:
         | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/glubuxs-powe...
        
       | twalla wrote:
       | Link to the primary source because the article is light on
       | details and has a broken link:
       | 
       | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/glubuxs-powe...
        
         | thecosas wrote:
         | Thank you for finding this :-)
        
         | metadat wrote:
         | Much better read than TFA, the submitted link seems written by
         | an LLM with pronoun confusion, swapping between "he" and "it".
         | 
         | The tail end of the thread is particularly interesting:
         | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/glubuxs-powe...
         | 
         | I'm curious what prevents the whole contraption from certain
         | eruption into flames over time:
         | 
         | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?attachments/image_rv...
         | _(image)_
        
         | fnordpiglet wrote:
         | What's even better is that's an entire community of people
         | doing this. Some of those power walls are astounding.
        
         | due-rr wrote:
         | The whole thread is so wholesome. Recommended reading :)
        
         | dang wrote:
         | We've since changed the URL (see
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43552105).
        
       | hidelooktropic wrote:
       | So not an April Fools joke?
        
         | timbit42 wrote:
         | Not unless it's an 8 year long one.
        
       | scott113341 wrote:
       | "I made 14 kWh more during lockdown"
       | 
       | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/glubuxs-powe...
       | 
       | ^ has a wild picture of full setup
        
         | MrBuddyCasino wrote:
         | Everything worth doing is worth over-doing. He should start
         | doing mad scientist experiments and produce ball lightning, the
         | amperage could be sufficient.
        
         | orbital-decay wrote:
         | That fire extinguisher looks ridiculously useless for a setup
         | like this. Good thing it's a separate shed, at least.
        
           | sethhochberg wrote:
           | Not gonna do you any good if the batteries themselves start
           | going off, but if something else has ignited in the cabinet
           | and the batteries are not yet on fire... you'd be glad to
           | have the extinguisher, I bet
        
           | timewizard wrote:
           | The fire extinguisher is in the wrong place entirely. If the
           | setup is on fire are you really going to reach _in there_ to
           | grab the extinguisher?
           | 
           | There's no protection over the bus connections. Any falling
           | conductive item is now a spark hazard.
           | 
           | Using spring loaded alligator clips as test leads apparently
           | for monitoring. I hope that's not a permanent configuration.
           | 
           | Everything is bolted down and I see no inline disconnects or
           | even any fusing except on low voltage sections.
           | 
           | There are exhaust fans but I can't tell if there's inlet
           | fans.
           | 
           | From this one picture, which may not be fair, this is not a
           | safe setup. I would feel uncomfortable with this on my
           | property.
        
           | dgfitz wrote:
           | I experienced a 400v DC lithium ion battery catch on fire
           | once, it was very scary. That fire extinguisher won't do much
           | at all, even if it is placed in a more logical spot.
           | 
           | The firemen ended up putting the battery, half melted, into a
           | big drum of water and it hook hours to cool off. The concrete
           | was still warm to the touch where it burned for ~30 hours
           | after the situation was sorted out.
           | 
           | The smoke was just absolutely unbelievable. Made me
           | reconsider buying an EV. That fire was no joke.
           | 
           | The MV contactor wasn't even closed, it had 24v powering it
           | for the internal cell balancer from the vendor, that was it.
        
             | bmicraft wrote:
             | Even though it might not seem like it because reporting on
             | burning cars is very selective, EVs do catch fire a lot
             | less than gar powered cars - even when adjusted for how
             | many there are on the road. Additinally, many new EVs use
             | cheaper LFP batteries now that are almost impossible catch
             | on fire.
        
               | dgfitz wrote:
               | I hear you and appreciate your point, I just don't think
               | they're for me. Maybe when my kids are grown. Scary does
               | t begin to describe what happens, the amount of energy is
               | mind-boggling.
        
           | function_seven wrote:
           | What _would_ be an appropriate suppression system here? That
           | 's a lotta batteries all arranged like a boy scout arranges
           | kindling logs for a campfire.
           | 
           | A roof-mounted water tank with a thousand gallons ready to
           | dump into the shed? A drum of baking soda?
           | 
           | Or maybe rebuild the shed out of cinder block and clear any
           | overhanging vegetation?
           | 
           | Maybe this whole setup is on desert dirt with plenty of
           | clearance. The fire plan is "run away and wait."
        
             | belval wrote:
             | A ton of sand, but that's the main issue with those systems
             | and why it's genuinely impractical as anything but a
             | hobbyist project. They need constant monitoring as all of
             | those cells are from laptop and risk thermal runaway at
             | some point. Even with the best matching possible some cell
             | in his configuration will have higher internal resistance
             | and create heat. "Real" large off-grid systems all use
             | LiFePO4 and are unlikely to just catch fire. That being
             | said from the forum post he seems well aware and he
             | probably has individual fuse for each cell.
             | 
             | You could also just bury it so that the worst of the
             | explosion is mostly mitigated. I've also seen small
             | container setup which would probably work better than his
             | (seemingly) wooden shed.
        
             | jszymborski wrote:
             | You can see the shelter here [0] and it is apparently 50m
             | from the house [1].
             | 
             | Would be better if the ground was paved around the shed,
             | but it seems to be far enough from other free standing
             | structures.
             | 
             | [0]
             | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/glubuxs-
             | powe...
             | 
             | [1]
             | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/glubuxs-
             | powe...
        
           | philipwhiuk wrote:
           | The only purpose of a fire extinguisher is to allow you to
           | get out. They do not contain enough water to adequately put
           | out any real life fire (especially not an electrical one like
           | this).
           | 
           | If he can't reach to grab it because it's too hot, he should
           | have already left.
        
             | rkagerer wrote:
             | I hope it doesn't contain any water at all!
             | 
             | Dry Powder or CO2 is what you need for energized electrical
             | equipment. And considering there's potential lithium
             | involvement, you might want something more specialized
             | (e.g. F-500 Encapsulator Agent). I agree anything more than
             | a small-scale incident you're just getting the heck out of
             | dodge. I'd have built something along the lines of a
             | concrete bunker, with an automated suppression system to
             | buy time.
        
       | pftburger wrote:
       | In other news: Man burns down house using 1k old laptop battery
       | (cells)
       | 
       | Thank the powers that be no one will give my neighbours a permit
       | for that.
        
         | downboots wrote:
         | They should also have enough skill for a fire suppression
         | system
        
       | iancmceachern wrote:
       | This is so dangerous, and not covered by insurance.
        
         | function_seven wrote:
         | All the best things in this world aren't covered by insurance
         | :)
        
         | iancmceachern wrote:
         | I design hardware for a living, it's a objective fact.
        
         | rsync wrote:
         | I can only speak for the United States, but, generally,
         | homeowners insurance "covers stupid" as they say in the biz..
        
       | ianferrel wrote:
       | >the solution came with rearranging and adjusting the cells to
       | ensure the packs worked more efficiently.
       | 
       | >Glubux even began disassembling entire laptop batteries,
       | removing individual cells and organizing them into custom racks.
       | This task, which likely required a great deal of manual labor and
       | technical knowledge, was key to making the system work
       | effectively and sustainably.
       | 
       | This kind of thing is cool as a passion project, but it really
       | just highlights how efficient the modern supply chain is. If you
       | have the skills of a professional electrician, you too can spend
       | hundreds of hours building a home battery system you could just
       | buy for $20k, but is less reliable.
        
         | supportengineer wrote:
         | There HAS to be a way to automate this process and make it work
         | at scale.
        
           | potato3732842 wrote:
           | But will the scale justify the huge investment?
        
           | joshvm wrote:
           | You would be amazed how many battery packs are multiple
           | 18650s in a trenchcoat. Even EV battery packs use them.
           | Though it does raise the question - wouldn't an old EV
           | battery be a better solution than stripping apart laptops?
        
             | ianferrel wrote:
             | Probably, but EV batteries are large enough that there
             | might be an industrial recycling process for them, while
             | old laptop batteries are basically free because it's too
             | much labor to extract useful value from them.
        
               | edaemon wrote:
               | I'm pretty sure most industrial recycling methods for
               | lithium batteries involve grinding them up, so pack size
               | isn't as much a factor as sheer volume. I think there
               | just wasn't much juice for the squeeze until demand from
               | EVs made recycling worthwhile.
               | 
               | Here's a video inside a recycling plant:
               | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2xrarUWVRQ
        
             | Workaccount2 wrote:
             | >You would be amazed how many battery packs are multiple
             | 18650s in a trenchcoat
             | 
             | $50 of 18650s in a $500 trenchcoat with DRM protection. So
             | wasteful.
        
               | HPsquared wrote:
               | "Cheaply made, not cheap to buy!"
        
               | 0_____0 wrote:
               | When battery packs that have a non-zero chance of
               | literally killing your users are commonplace, it actually
               | does make sense to vendor-lock the battery. Believe it or
               | not there is actual engineering that goes into making
               | batteries beyond spot welding them to an interconnect and
               | stuffing them into $.50 of ABS enclosure.
        
               | Workaccount2 wrote:
               | The "actual engineering" you are referring to is a $1.00
               | BMS board.
               | 
               | We are well past the point where we should have
               | standardized batteries. We have bunch of standardized
               | wall outlets that accommodate an array of "non-zero
               | chance of literally killing your users" end products. No
               | reason for battery packs to not be standardized (other
               | than vendor lock in).
        
               | znpy wrote:
               | > When battery packs that have a non-zero chance of
               | literally killing your users are commonplace, it actually
               | does make sense to vendor-lock the battery.
               | 
               | Linus from Linus Tech Tips made a few episodes on
               | building a battery out of individual 18650 cells, and one
               | of the thing he stressed (as in, underlined) a lot on is
               | that spot-welding cells is extremely dangerous and there
               | aren't easy ways to put out a lithium fire.
               | 
               | Water is not only not going to help you, it's going to
               | make things worse.
               | 
               | You __have__ to have a bucket of sand with you and if
               | anything goes even slightly wrong you just toss
               | everything in the bucket of sand and bring the whole
               | bucket outside.
        
             | 0_____0 wrote:
             | There's a lot that goes into manufacturing battery packs
             | beyond the cells. How's your thermal path to ambient in
             | your home wall battery? How is the inter-cell thermal
             | isolation? Is there a path for gas discharge in the event
             | of a cell failure? Is the pack appropriately fused at the
             | cell or module level? When a cell fails, does it take the
             | whole pack with it, catch someone's apartment building on
             | fire and kill a family of 5, or merely become stinky with a
             | hotspot visible on IR?
             | 
             | How good is your cell acceptance testing? Do you do X-ray
             | inspection for defects, do ESR vs cycle and potentially
             | destructive testing on a sample of each lot? When a module
             | fails health checks in the field, will you know which
             | customers to proactively contact, and which vendor to
             | reassess?
             | 
             | Yeah lots of batteries are 18650/26650 in a trenchcoat. The
             | trenchcoats run the gamut from "good, fine" to "you will
             | die of smoke inhalation and have a closed casket" in
             | quality and I think that bears mentioning.
        
               | lifeisstillgood wrote:
               | I get that the trenchcoat needs to be well designed and
               | tested, but I am still flat out amazed that you both
               | agree with "meh, most battery packs are made up of
               | rechargeable domestic batteries you find in a kids toy"
               | 
               | I just assumed there was ... special stuff in there
        
               | kadoban wrote:
               | There's a lot of risk in creativity when you're selling
               | crap to the public at scale. Way better to just use what
               | everyone else is using.
        
               | hnuser123456 wrote:
               | For a highly engineered battery like a premium EV, there
               | are coolant channels, temp monitoring, voltage
               | monitoring, etc.
               | 
               | Soldering some connectors onto some random cells and
               | knowing they shouldn't go over 4.2v is one thing, but
               | measuring cell health via internal resistance,
               | programming a controller to do temp shutoff and wiring up
               | temp sensors, keeping cells balanced, is a lot of extra
               | work, but critical if you at all care about not
               | potentially burning down wherever they're stored.
               | 
               | Keeping the cells small and just using a hundred of them
               | in parallel (and a hundred of these parallel packs in
               | series to get up to the hundreds of volts needed), thus
               | using ~10,000 cells, in EV batteries limits the maximum
               | damage from one cell going worst-case, assuming your
               | enclosure can contain it.
               | 
               | That being said, it seems there is a slow movement
               | towards larger cells, from 18650 to 26650 or similar. But
               | each cell on its own is still a dumb can of chemicals
               | ready to go boom if you mistreat it.
        
               | bmicraft wrote:
               | There are some pretty huge cells now like the 4680s
        
               | pests wrote:
               | I used to joke with my buddy back when he first got his
               | Tesla that we were driving around on "over 7000 vape
               | batteries!", as that was the fad at the time and where
               | most normal consumers recognized them.
        
               | ericd wrote:
               | Where would you put this battery in that trenchcoat
               | gamut? Inside a server rack, fwiw.
               | https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-v2-lithium-
               | battery...
               | 
               | Was definitely one of the harder parts of our solar
               | install to get comfortable with.
        
               | Shog9 wrote:
               | Bigger, fewer, more chill cells, fairly robust
               | trenchcoat.
               | 
               | (IIRC, these packs are 16 100ah LiFePO4 cells in a steel
               | case w/ built-in fuse, breaker, and BMS that monitors
               | individual cell health and pack temperature, w/ automatic
               | cut-off if any of that goes out of spec. The weakness is
               | primarily the MOSFETs on the BMS potentially failing
               | shorted. Fortunately, they've added some sort of
               | additional fire suppression beyond just "steel case" in
               | recent-ish versions of these packs)
        
             | vel0city wrote:
             | FWIW a lot of EVs use prismatic cells, not cylinder cells.
             | Tesla, Rivian, and Lucid use cylindrical cells. Hyundai,
             | Volkswagen, BMW, GM, Ford, and BYD all use prismatic cells.
        
             | znpy wrote:
             | > You would be amazed how many battery packs are multiple
             | 18650s in a trenchcoat
             | 
             | Also laptop batteries used to be many (usually three or
             | six) 18650s in a plastic trenchcoat.
             | 
             | You could literally rebuild your battery when it died, and
             | pick the cells you liked the most. In theory you could pick
             | higher-quality cells than those you find in the batteries
             | sold on ebay from chinese stores. In theory.
        
             | mmcwilliams wrote:
             | That depends on the problem you're trying to solve. If it's
             | only to build a home power system, sure, but if the goal is
             | "I want to prevent these laptop batteries from ending up in
             | a landfill" then using an old EV battery doesn't really
             | help you much.
        
           | hermitShell wrote:
           | The problem is likely cost effectiveness compared to just
           | replacing a whole group of cells, compared to one single
           | cell. The unit economics of getting the remaining life from
           | single used laptop battery are not very good. There's
           | certainly lots of potential value for someone willing to do
           | the work, if they can afford the opportunity cost, or if a
           | business can source extremely dirt cheap cells and cheap high
           | skilled labor.
        
           | beAbU wrote:
           | Yes, with cheap third world labour, the same way many other
           | technological marvels of the modern era are "automated".
        
             | harvey9 wrote:
             | This can't be done remote so you will need to bring that
             | labor to where the work is.
        
               | kowabungalow wrote:
               | There's already a pipeline sending old electronics to
               | cheap labor for possible refurbishing, recycling and/or
               | incorrect disposal. A small percentage they repackage
               | into replacement laptop batteries and ship back, but they
               | could also send more of them back as a value UPS with
               | different value add parts.
               | 
               | Personally, I expect there to be a massive conversion to
               | USB-PD as the primary power in the cellphone only
               | regions.
        
               | lifeisstillgood wrote:
               | Does USB-PD mean USB power distribution ?
               | 
               | And yeah - some LEDs and a usb wire around the ceiling
               | solves lighting a house more sensibly than a three-phase
               | converter under the stairs and enough power going through
               | a light switch to kill me ...
        
               | bmicraft wrote:
               | It means USB Power Delivery and is a standard for
               | negotiating custom-other-than-5V voltages from a USB
               | Type-C power supply and communicating to the device how
               | much current it is allowed to draw.
               | 
               | It's why you can charge your phone with your laptops
               | power brick without anything exploding, and why most
               | laptops can charge (very slowly) from pretty underpowered
               | phone chargers now.
        
               | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
               | Building large battery arrays out of old recycled cells
               | does not require bringing the workers to the battery
               | cells, any more than building iPhones requires you to
               | bring the workers to where they mine ore. Large-scale
               | product development often involves shipping materials and
               | half-finished products around the world multiple times.
        
           | Workaccount2 wrote:
           | There is a lot of liability in sticking your name on a hodge
           | podge of random used lithium cells.
        
             | dheera wrote:
             | I feel like for home battery backup there needs to be some
             | kind of lower energy density solution that has zero fire
             | risk.
             | 
             | Weight is not a factor for home energy storage, there is no
             | need for lithium cells.
        
               | tinbucket wrote:
               | _Weight is not a factor for home energy storage, there is
               | no need for lithium cells._
               | 
               | That depends on your living situation. I live in a third-
               | floor apartment, so weight is very definitely a factor.
        
               | bmicraft wrote:
               | Weight always is a factor since heavy batteries cost more
               | to transport, period. It's always relevant, not least for
               | the installation too.
        
               | dheera wrote:
               | We're talking on the order of millions of kilograms for
               | the building materials that needed to be transported to
               | build it. The batteries needed for backup power for its
               | occupants won't come anywhere close to that, even at far
               | lower energy density than lithium.
        
               | dheera wrote:
               | The apartment building can have unified power backup in
               | its foundation/basement.
               | 
               | If you reduce the energy density by a factor of 10, the
               | weight for power backup needs will still be far lighter
               | than the concrete.
        
               | etskinner wrote:
               | It seems unlikely that there's any practical chemical
               | batteries with 0 fire risk.
               | 
               | But I do think there should be home energy storage that
               | doesn't involve chemical batteries. Where are all the
               | pumped hydro, flywheels, and compressed air storage for
               | consumer use?
        
               | mulmen wrote:
               | There's no perfectly safe energy storage. The danger
               | comes from the concentration of energy. Water can cause
               | flooding or you can drown in it. Flywheels can
               | disintegrate into shrapnel. It's always risk management.
        
               | ianburrell wrote:
               | Currently, that is LiFePO4. It is cheaper than LiPo packs
               | used in electronics, half the energy density, twice as
               | many charge cycles, and doesn't burst into flame. The
               | lithium is flammable but requires external ignition.
               | 
               | Larger batteries, including some electric cars, have
               | switched.
        
               | bmicraft wrote:
               | LiFePO4 (LFP) is overwhelmingly safe and cheap. Lithium
               | isn't the problem here exactly.
        
           | idiotsecant wrote:
           | You would never do this in a production product. You need
           | batteries with similar internal impedances or undesirable
           | things happen. This is the battery equivalent of the guy who
           | welds two car front ends together and drives it around. It's
           | cool and quirky but not a useful product for most people.
        
           | jsight wrote:
           | From what I've heard, it is more economical to recycle the
           | raw materials than to reuse small packs.
           | 
           | Reuse of vehicle sized packs seems to be pretty common,
           | though. I'd guess that a DIY home backup could be built
           | pretty easily from used vehicle batteries.
        
             | garciasn wrote:
             | The dude has a warehouse/workshop to do this work and house
             | the system. I'm super impressed by what he's accomplished,
             | don't get me wrong; but, what he's done just isn't viable
             | for 99.99999999999% of people.
             | 
             | Give me an array and battery system that can pull off the
             | grid and/or array and power most of my home without me
             | having to think a whole lot or pay a vendor thousands to
             | install while making the total cost under $1000 and I'll do
             | it.
             | 
             | Until then, it just isn't financially viable when my
             | electricity costs are well under $70/month average across
             | the year.
             | 
             | Recouping the costs for install of solar systems are
             | estimated at 30-40 years as of 4 years ago when I
             | researched it. I'm sorry, but that's just not worth it for
             | me and most others.
        
               | speerer wrote:
               | I enjoyed noticing that your percentage (1x10-13) was so
               | precise that it excluded the man himself (he is 1 in
               | 8x109).
               | 
               | I don't want to detract from your point. I just wanted to
               | appreciate the hyperbole.
        
               | garciasn wrote:
               | It's April Fools, so you have to pay close attention
               | today; glad you caught my hilarious joke.
        
               | jsight wrote:
               | Sure, but it does get a lot simpler if you start from
               | modules instead of cells. Nothing will get around the
               | requirement to have electrical knowledge.
               | 
               | Cost is always an issue. These rarely make sense from a
               | pure $$ sense, as everything in electrical is expensive.
               | You could burn up that $1000 budget just to get a
               | subpanel installed.
               | 
               | Usually the value proposition is some combination of
               | savings, combined with the ability to backup critical
               | loads. A generator could do that too, but a proper
               | generator setup isn't cheap either, and it wouldn't save
               | $$ at all. Battery solutions sometimes beat that.
        
               | garciasn wrote:
               | When I priced out solar, it was never sold as a backup
               | solution; it was apparently intended as a 'sell back to
               | grid' solution. To add a battery effectively doubled the
               | cost.
        
               | em3rgent0rdr wrote:
               | Unfortunately, that 'sell back to grid' price is often
               | only a small fraction of the ~17 cent/kWh purchase price
               | from the grid. The battery is less for backup but is
               | instead to help make economic sense for your home, by
               | storing the excess you produce when it is sunny...
        
               | jsight wrote:
               | When I had solar, ~10 years ago, it was similar. We had
               | net metering, no batteries, and zero backup if the grid
               | went down. This was in an area where that rarely happened
               | anyway, so I didn't really care. It'd be easy to add
               | batteries, though.
               | 
               | But net metering is becoming less common, and if you
               | can't sell to the grid at retail, then it'd make sense to
               | store it locally. In some cases, it can also make sense
               | to use batteries even without solar. A good sized battery
               | can keep your refrigerator running for days, which is
               | useful for areas prone to weather related outages. It can
               | also easily fully power the electronics on a gas oven for
               | a long time. And honestly, a big battery these days isn't
               | even that expensive.
               | 
               | And if that isn't enough, some batteries can be topped up
               | with the power from a large battery EV. DCFC tends to
               | come back before a lot of residential power, so this can
               | be really useful.
        
           | raincole wrote:
           | Of course, but you will also 'scale' the safety implications.
        
           | dehrmann wrote:
           | Isn't the problem with parasitic charging? Suppose you had a
           | bunch of used 18650 cells. To scale the electronics, they'll
           | be wired up in parallel and/or series so the charging logic
           | can be shared, but since the batteries are wildly mismatched,
           | it results in parasitic charging.
        
             | sightbroke wrote:
             | That is why you sort them.
             | 
             | Some recent research into that:
             | https://www.sae.org/publications/technical-
             | papers/content/20...
             | 
             | You can also consider maintaining packs together to avoid
             | complicated disassembling processes.
        
               | dehrmann wrote:
               | > maintaining packs together
               | 
               | (This might already be happening, but I haven't heard
               | about it) The big thing EVs need right now is
               | standardized battery packs. It reduces replacement cost,
               | takes away anxiety that a replacement will exist when you
               | need it, and enables down-cycle uses like stationary
               | storage.
        
           | rolandog wrote:
           | Standardizing battery packs would probably help with the
           | automation; like with USB-C.
        
           | numpad0 wrote:
           | Buying a used Nissan Leaf and using V2H feature in CHAdeMO is
           | it. Or you can remove and use its well-reverse-engineered
           | minimum nominal 24kWh semi-removable battery. But no one
           | wants a Leaf, so there's that.
        
         | cjbgkagh wrote:
         | $20K for a home battery backup for someone capable of doing DIY
         | would be far larger than what I assume he has built here. AFAIK
         | the cheaper end is around $340 (2016) per kWh at 20 kWh that
         | would be $6,800. In 2025 at $100 per kWh it would be $2K. If
         | it's worth it would largely depending on a persons post tax
         | required rate of return and how long it would take.
        
           | gwbas1c wrote:
           | I spent almost as much as that for a 2 Powerwalls and
           | installation in 2019. (Granted, I got a 3rd back from various
           | incentives that probably weren't available for DIY.)
           | 
           | DIY (like this project) is only "worth it" if the person
           | doing it enjoys the work or values the lessons.
        
             | cjbgkagh wrote:
             | There is a spectrum of DIY and the sweet spot depends on
             | the person. Since I'm good with electronics my sweet spot
             | is buying premade packs.
        
           | adamhartenz wrote:
           | If you took that same time, and invested it in working at
           | Target, or Amazon etc, would you have more or less money than
           | it would cost to buy an off-the-shelf battery? There are
           | obviously other pros and cons.
        
             | Transfinity wrote:
             | I think Target isn't the right comparison here - the skills
             | required for this project are worth much more than minimum
             | wage bagging groceries. If you assume something like $50 an
             | hour (on the low end for a skilled electrician), you get to
             | the $6800 number in the parent post pretty quickly.
        
               | t-3 wrote:
               | Getting certified and hired as a skilled electrician is a
               | lot more complicated and much harder than acquiring the
               | knowledge to be a skilled electrician. There are many
               | people working Target-level jobs with that level of skill
               | in some area.
        
               | cjbgkagh wrote:
               | That number was from 2016 is useful in determining if it
               | was worth it but not useful if it will be worth it
               | staring today as the number has changed in the
               | intervening 9 years. The number will keep changing with
               | an estimate of $80 kWh by 2030.
        
             | cjbgkagh wrote:
             | Of the three options, DIY battery packs, premade 100aH
             | battery packs, or white glove powerwall a minimum wage
             | earner would likely not have the skills to DIY the battery
             | packs nor the money to pay for the powerwall.
             | 
             | Battery packs are an efficient market commodity and that's
             | pretty hard to beat for value for money.
             | 
             | Once full installations become more of a commodity then DIY
             | with premade packs becomes less worth it.
        
             | neuralRiot wrote:
             | It all comes down to what makes you happy.
        
         | facile3232 wrote:
         | > but it really just highlights how efficient the modern supply
         | chain is
         | 
         | This "efficiency" relies on the assumption of writing off the
         | entire battery set at sale. That's not impressive at all.
        
         | pbasista wrote:
         | > spend hundreds of hours building a home battery system
         | 
         | That is, in my opinion, the worst feature of this entire
         | project. It is cool and nice and fun. But it takes a lot of
         | time to research, acquire skills, get tools and build.
         | 
         | > you could just buy for $20k
         | 
         | I agree with a broader point but that particular price is
         | extremely high and far from reality.
         | 
         | A reasonably good 18650 cell has a capacity of ~12 Wh (~3300
         | mAh * ~3.7 V = ~12.2 Wh). The battery mentioned in the article
         | consists of "more than 1000" such cells. Let us assume 1200
         | cells. That would mean it has a capacity of ~14.4 kWh (1200 *
         | 12).
         | 
         | It is possible to get a pre-assembled steel battery case on
         | heavy-duty wheels for 16 LiFePo cells, with a modern BMS with
         | Bluetooth and wired communication options, a touchscreen
         | display, a circuit breaker and nice terminals for ~ $500. And
         | it is also possible to get 16 high quality LiFePo cells with a
         | capacity of ~300 Ah each, like EVE MB31, for significantly less
         | than $100 each. This means that for less than ~$2000, it is
         | possible to get all components required to assemble a fully
         | working ~15 kWh LiFePo battery.
         | 
         | - That assembly would take a few hours rather than weeks.
         | 
         | - It will have new cells rather than used ones.
         | 
         | - It will be safer to use than a battery with Li-Ion cells.
         | 
         | - It will likely take much less space.
         | 
         | - It will be easy to expand.
        
           | fragmede wrote:
           | > - It will have new cells rather than used ones.
           | 
           | This is _not_ a feature. Our Earth is a limited resource, and
           | being able to reuse batteries instead of discarding them to
           | the trash is a desirable property.
        
             | beacon294 wrote:
             | There's even more to the riddle. Lithium recycling, cost of
             | the power loss in old cells. Power transmit cost. Cost of
             | power generation on site.
        
           | ianferrel wrote:
           | Thanks for the all the specifics! I admit that my $20k number
           | was a very rough "I'm sure it must be less than this"
           | estimate because I wanted to make sure I erred on the high
           | side for the point I was making.
        
           | brador wrote:
           | The parable of the fisherman and the banker:
           | 
           | https://travis.vc/mexican-fisherman-parable/
           | 
           | Sometimes the doing is the fun part.
        
           | volkl48 wrote:
           | Now.
           | 
           | I will point out that in 2016 when they started this project,
           | the cost of new batteries would have been multiple times
           | higher than it is today, so it would have been a moderately
           | more "sensible" thing to do than it currently seems.
        
             | autobodie wrote:
             | Now what?
        
               | Cyphase wrote:
               | The costs their parent mentioned are the costs now, not
               | back when the system was originally built.
        
               | wholinator2 wrote:
               | It's likely just a statement of emphasis, though the
               | correct usage would be something like, "now, something
               | something something..." with a comma instead of a period
        
               | neotek wrote:
               | "Now" as in "all of those things are true now, but they
               | weren't when this project started ten years ago."
        
           | aftbit wrote:
           | 300 Ah * 3.2 V => 960 Wh ~= 1 kWh
           | 
           | $80 per cell (before shipping) on the top Google product
           | result for EVE MB31.
           | 
           | That's a good bit cheaper even than when I looked last, in
           | early 2021.
        
           | mbesto wrote:
           | You can get 15 kWh for $1,3000 if you pick up in Texas (these
           | use EVE MB31 which usually end up testing at ~310 Ah): https:
           | //www.apexiummall.com/index.php?route=product/product&...
           | 
           | It just keeps getting cheaper and cheaper every year...
        
             | jamiek88 wrote:
             | 13k or 1.3k?
        
         | immibis wrote:
         | You can read it the other way around: with labour and
         | knowledge, you can save $20k.
         | 
         | And with even more passion and commitment and with business
         | skills, you could earn $20k at a time.
        
       | nottorp wrote:
       | > A man powers home for eight years using a thousand old laptop
       | batteries
       | 
       | ... a single charge for each?
       | 
       | And speaking of applications that are too smart for their own
       | good, why does Firefox start a drag operation when I click on a
       | link instead of allowing me to select the text?
        
       | recursive wrote:
       | A thousand old laptop batteries _and bunch of solar panels_. The
       | headline is a touch nonsensical as-is.
        
         | Sharlin wrote:
         | I was thinking maybe he had a _very_ low-energy home.
        
           | brewtide wrote:
           | Somewhere in his posts I think I read that his house at
           | 'idle' is drawing like 30watts. That seems pretty low energy
           | to me!
        
             | recursive wrote:
             | Not low enough to run for 8 years without a recharge.
        
       | louwrentius wrote:
       | I would highly recommend not to go this route but to buy LFP
       | prismatic cells. Much safer, stable chemistry that isn't as
       | sensitive to heat.
       | 
       | Look at Off Grid Garage (Andy) or Will Prowse YT channels for
       | more info.
        
       | EGreg wrote:
       | Why not just dig a hole in the ground and make a gravity battery?
       | Would be much more reusable without all the lithium garbage ...
       | and also probably more efficient...
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity_battery
       | 
       | And the most efficient way would probably be to just have credits
       | with the rest of the city grid. Sell electricity to them when you
       | have a surplus (from solar) and then pay for electricity when you
       | need it. These credits are a lot more efficient than storing the
       | actual electricity in a battery hehe
        
         | tecleandor wrote:
         | But how expensive would be to dig a, I don't know, 1000 by 6
         | feet hole in the ground? I have no idea of an equivalent
         | gravity battery...
        
           | thfuran wrote:
           | The average US household uses about 10,000 kwhr per year.
           | That's roughly equivalent to the gravitational energy of
           | dropping ten tons down a 200 mile hole.
        
         | numpad0 wrote:
         | holes in the ground are just wells, and gravity batteries are
         | just dams. don't reinvent the square wheels, please...
        
       | passive wrote:
       | My sad brain keeps insisting this headline contains the phrase
       | "thousand year old laptop batteries", which said brain also
       | assures me is impossible.
        
         | not_a_bot_4sho wrote:
         | I came here to either find this comment, or make it myself.
        
         | dredmorbius wrote:
         | Your brain is not alone.
        
       | lenerdenator wrote:
       | Something tells me his home insurance agent didn't know about
       | this.
        
       | system2 wrote:
       | I like how the article only shows a blurry RC battery charging
       | station instead of the real stuff he did.
        
       | ferguess_k wrote:
       | I wonder if there is a more practical tutorial to route a power
       | generator into the house with sort of a power switch. I don't
       | know the exact phrase but basically I can route a few things like
       | the fridge or the lights to this switch so they switch to the
       | generator when there is an outage.
       | 
       | I know it can be done because I asked an electrician. But I
       | dropped the idea when he said it could cost a lot (if done by a
       | professional).
        
         | BrandoElFollito wrote:
         | This is not difficult - you need to dedicate a few circuits
         | (cables) and have them end on the generator (or UPS for some).
         | It requires planning but the cost is not especially high (more
         | cables must be used)
        
           | ferguess_k wrote:
           | Thanks. I think I got the name of the device, it's called ATS
           | (Automatic Transfer Switch). Is this the things I should
           | install?
        
             | eldaisfish wrote:
             | take the other person's advice - get an electrician.
        
         | bigfatkitten wrote:
         | > I know it can be done because I asked an electrician. But I
         | dropped the idea when he said it could cost a lot (if done by a
         | professional).
         | 
         | If you have to ask, this is absolutely not the sort of work you
         | should do yourself. Use a licensed electrician.
        
         | quickthrowman wrote:
         | Hire an electrician please, I sell and run electrical work and
         | a generator installation is not something you should take on
         | yourself.
         | 
         | If you want to have a few electrical loads on a generator
         | backed panel, you have an electrician install the generator,
         | automatic transfer switch, and a subpanel that is fed by the
         | automatic transfer switch, which is fed by both utility power
         | (from a breaker in your main electrical panel) and generator
         | power. If you're using natural gas or propane to power the
         | generator, a pipe fitter will need to run the gas line.
         | 
         | Then you tell the electrician to move the circuits you wanted
         | backed by a generator from your main panel to the subpanel fed
         | by the ATS. The subpanel receives power from the utility until
         | the ATS detects an outage, which fires up the generator and
         | transfers the power feeding the subpanel to the generator.
         | 
         | Generators can use gasoline, diesel, natural gas, or propane,
         | or a combination of any of the aforementioned fuels. Ideally
         | you'd have a multi fuel generator hooked up to a natural gas
         | utility with a backup propane tank in case the natural gas
         | service goes down.
         | 
         | You can also get a whole house generator and have the ATS feed
         | your existing electrical panel, you'll need a 24kW 120/240V for
         | a 100A service or 48kW 120/240V for a 200A service
         | 
         | I'd recommend a Generac generator if you do get one, Costco
         | sells them and will connect you with an installer.
         | 
         | If you want to get crazy, you could add a 50kva single-phase
         | 120/240V UPS and the UPS would keep the power on while the
         | generator starts up but that would be serious overkill (and
         | tens of thousands of dollars).
        
       | yapyap wrote:
       | That is gangster!
        
       | ChuckMcM wrote:
       | It's all fun and games until one of those thousand batteries
       | decides to go exothermic :-). This is a really amazing story and
       | I'm impressed by the diligence and amount of effort they put into
       | recovering and reusing all of these batteries. A couple of
       | dendrites though, a lightning strike, there are things outside of
       | their control that could turn the building holding this
       | collection of batteries into a very impressive incendiary device.
       | If you've ever seen a fire at a battery factory, it is both
       | fascinating and scary af. People are still trying to assess the
       | long term damage from the Moss Landing grid scale battery fire in
       | California.
        
       | elicash wrote:
       | Folks are correct this is dangerous. But you could imagine a
       | world where batteries were required to be built in a way that
       | this type of tinkering of individual cells and matching them was
       | safer.
       | 
       | If it could be done, would certainly would be better than turning
       | batteries into "black mass."
        
       | Kaytaro wrote:
       | The 2nd quote is when I realized this article was written or
       | assisted by AI. Not that it's a big deal, that's our world now.
       | But it's interesting to notice the subtle 'accent' that gives it
       | away.
        
         | dartos wrote:
         | What about it gives off the AI smell to you?
        
           | endtime wrote:
           | Nice try, ChatGPT.
           | 
           | More seriously, for me it's the "likely".
        
             | ziddoap wrote:
             | Using "likely" is indicative of AI now...?
             | 
             | Absurd.
             | 
             | The only thing as annoying as people using AI and passing
             | it off as their own writing is the people who claim
             | everything written not exactly how they are used to is AI.
        
               | cyral wrote:
               | > This task, which likely required a great deal of manual
               | labor and technical knowledge, was key to making the
               | system work effectively and sustainably.
               | 
               | This is obviously AI. The writer should know that it
               | either required manual labor or it did not, not maybe (AI
               | loves to not "commit" to an answer and rather say
               | maybe/likely). It also loves to loop in some vague claim
               | about X being effective, sustainable, ethical, etc
               | without providing any information as to WHY it is.
               | 
               | That and it being published on some blog spam website
               | called techoreon.
               | 
               | Edit: For fun, I had o1-mini produce an article from the
               | original source (Techspot it looks like), and it produced
               | a similar line:
               | 
               | > This ingenious approach likely required significant
               | manual effort and technical expertise, but the results
               | speak for themselves, as evidenced by the system's eight-
               | year flawless operation.
               | 
               | What these sites are doing is rewriting articles from
               | legitimate sources, and then selling SEO backlinks to
               | their "news" website full of generated content (and
               | worthless backlinks). It's how all those scammy fiverr
               | link services work
        
               | ziddoap wrote:
               | At least this is a better effort at explaining why you
               | would believe it is AI than the other poster who just
               | says it's AI because they used the word "likely".
               | 
               | I still find it very annoying that in every thread about
               | a blog post there's someone shouting "AI!" because
               | there's an em dash, bullet points, or some common
               | word/saying (e.g. "likely", "crucially", "in
               | conclusion"). It's been more intrusive on my life than
               | actual AI writing has been.
               | 
               | I've been accused of using AI for writing because I have
               | used parenthesis, ellipses, various common words, because
               | I structured a post with bullet points and a conclusion
               | section, etc. It's wildly frustrating.
        
               | cyral wrote:
               | > because I structured a post with bullet points and a
               | conclusion section
               | 
               | I do understand that this is frustrating, because in the
               | last few months I see posts with these features
               | everywhere. It's especially a problem on reddit, where
               | there are numerous low effort posts in niche subreddits
               | that are overdone with emojis, bolded sections/titles,
               | and em dashes. Not all of these are AI but an
               | overwhelming majority are to the point where if the
               | quality of the content is low (lots of vague sayings),
               | and it exhibits these traits, I can almost say for
               | certain it's AI.
               | 
               | What is also less talked about is now AI models are
               | beginning to write without exhibiting these issues. I've
               | been playing around with GPT 4o and it's deep research
               | feature writes articles that are extremely well written,
               | not exhibiting the traits above or classic telltale AI
               | signs. I also had a friend ask it to write a fictional
               | passage on a character description and the writing was
               | impeccable (which is depressing because it was better
               | than what she wrote). Soon we are not going to have any
               | clue what is real and what isn't.
        
               | fragmede wrote:
               | The kids ask ChatGPT to rewrite it using the diction of a
               | 9 year old, so it doesn't look like it was AI generated.
               | If you have a big enough corpus of writing, you could use
               | yourself as the input style to emulate. Unfortunately I
               | think we're going to has get over generated vs not as the
               | technology improves. we'll have to judge a work based on
               | its own merits and not use any tells. Quelle horrer!
        
               | ziddoap wrote:
               | > _What is also less talked about is now AI models are
               | beginning to write without exhibiting these issues._
               | 
               | It will be great when I continue to write the way I have
               | for decades, continuing to be accused of being AI, while
               | actual AI writing exceeds my ability and isn't accused of
               | being AI.
               | 
               | Get me off this ride.
        
               | zahlman wrote:
               | As someone who "detects" AI frequently: it's often
               | difficult or impossible to explain where the sense comes
               | from. It can be very much a matter of intuition, but of
               | course it's awkward to admit that publicly. I don't fault
               | others for coming up with an overly simple explanation.
        
               | buttercraft wrote:
               | How do you know how accurate you are? How do you know
               | when you're wrong?
        
               | ifyoubuildit wrote:
               | I think this is an excellent question and one people
               | should be asking themselves frequently. I often get the
               | impression that commenters have not considered this.
               | 
               | For example, whenever someone on the internet makes a
               | claim about "most x", e.g. most people this, most
               | developers that. What does anyone actually know about
               | "most" anything? I think the answer "pretty much
               | nothing".
        
               | cyral wrote:
               | Yes, this is an important point. Insert the survivorship
               | bias plane picture that always gets posted when someone
               | makes this mistake on other platforms (Twitter). We can
               | be accurate at detecting poor AI writing attempts, but
               | not know how much AI writing is good enough to go
               | undetected.
        
               | numpad0 wrote:
               | Someone should run a double blind test app, there was an
               | adversarially crafted one for images and still got 60% or
               | so average accuracy. We all just can glance the data and
               | detect AI generation like how some experts can just let
               | logs run and say something.
        
               | zahlman wrote:
               | If I'm being entirely honest, in the general case _I don
               | 't_.
               | 
               | But I don't particularly care, either. After a couple
               | tries I decided it's better not to point at object
               | examples of suspected LLM text all the time (except e.g.
               | to report it on Stack Overflow, where it's against the
               | rules and where moderators will use actual detection
               | software etc. to try to verify). But I still notice that
               | style of writing instinctively, and it still
               | automatically flips a switch in my brain to approach the
               | content differently. (Of course, even when I'm confident
               | that something was written by a human, I still e.g. try
               | to verify terminal commands with the man pages before
               | following instructions I don't understand.)
               | 
               | Of course, AI writes the way it does for a reason. More
               | worryingly, it increasingly seems like (verifiably) human
               | writers are mimicking the style - like they see so much
               | AI-generated text out there that sounds authoritative,
               | that they start trying to use the same rhetorical
               | techniques in order to gain that same air of authority.
        
               | numpad0 wrote:
               | Exposure to AI output itself triggers and trains rage
               | response in lots of people. Blame AI for it, regular
               | people have no control over.
               | 
               | Asking for cause or thought processes is just asking them
               | to hallucinate. They don't know why, they just know that
               | they saw it and that it deserves hate.
        
               | soulofmischief wrote:
               | I've been approached to build a few of these sites now.
               | No thanks.
        
               | yellowapple wrote:
               | > (AI loves to not "commit" to an answer and rather say
               | maybe/likely)
               | 
               | Well fuck, I might very well be an AI, then ;)
        
               | mrguyorama wrote:
               | LLMs had way more "average internet commenter" training
               | material than it had "good journalism" training material.
               | 
               | Keep that in mind when people make them write journalism.
               | It's like at an 8th grade level, maybe.
        
               | drysine wrote:
               | It's likely.
        
               | ToValueFunfetti wrote:
               | Techspot:
               | 
               | >However, in this ingenious setup, Glubux took those
               | individual cells and assembled them into their own
               | customized racks - a process that likely required a fair
               | bit of elbow grease and technical know-how, but one that
               | has ultimately paid off in spades.
               | 
               | Either this is also AI, or saying that it likely required
               | a lot of manual labor is not indicative
        
               | cyral wrote:
               | I wasn't going to get into that but I got the same
               | feeling about the techspot article ironically
        
               | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
               | But using "likely" _is_ obviously AI in this context, or
               | at least it 's really, really shitty reporting.
               | 
               | This is supposed to be a news article, not someone who's
               | hypothesizing about something that could have been. I
               | mean, it either required a great deal of manual labor and
               | technical knowledge or it didn't - no guessing should be
               | required. If the author doesn't know, they can do proper
               | research or simply ask the subject.
               | 
               | FWIW this article didn't immediately scream AI to me
               | either, until the commenter pointed out the use of
               | "likely". When you think about it, it absolutely becomes
               | a fingerprint of AI _in this context_ - it 's not just
               | that "likely" anywhere means it's AI.
        
               | ajkjk wrote:
               | Your inability to tell when things are AI doesn't mean
               | other people can't.
               | 
               | Same phenomenon happens all the time with food or wine.
               | One person thinks everyone is making up the subtle flavor
               | profile comments and sneers at them. Everyone who can
               | tell rolls their eyes. You can't convince someone that
               | there's something they can't perceive besides just
               | telling them.
               | 
               | I've had this experience with records: as a kid I rolled
               | my eyes at people wanting to listen to music on vinyl
               | cause obviously it was the same; as my hearing has
               | improved I have found I can clearly tell the difference
               | and definitely prefer it.
        
               | ziddoap wrote:
               | > _Your inability to tell when things are AI doesn 't
               | mean other people can't._
               | 
               | I didn't even comment on whether this article is AI or
               | not. My point is that it is absurd to point at a single
               | word as proof of something being written by AI.
        
               | ajkjk wrote:
               | well it's that phrase, not just the word, although the
               | word is a tell. And it's not absurd. It is absurd to
               | think it's absurd. You are being ignorant.
        
               | ziddoap wrote:
               | It's absurd to think a single word (the comment didn't
               | even say phrase), or even a single phrase, is evidence of
               | AI.
               | 
               | > _" If it's interesting and/or you already have a
               | relationship, which their publisher _likely_ does, it's
               | pretty easy to get an article written."_
               | 
               | Woah, you must be AI. You used "and/or" and "likely"!
               | (See how absurd that is?)
        
           | realprimoh wrote:
           | this part: "key to making the system work effectively and
           | sustainably".
        
           | zahlman wrote:
           | Because it's presenting a bunch of smooth prose that utterly
           | fails at logical continuity.
           | 
           | 1. What point is the author trying to make? Leading off
           | "Glubux even began" implies that the effort was extraordinary
           | in some way, but if this action was "key to making the system
           | work effectively and sustainably" then it can't really have
           | been that extraordinary. The writing is confused between
           | trying to make the effort sound exceptional vs. giving a
           | technical explanation of how the end result works.
           | 
           | 2. _Why_ , exactly, would "removing individual cells and
           | organizing them into custom racks" be "key to making the
           | system work effectively and sustainably"?
           | 
           | 3. How is the system's effectiveness related to its
           | sustainable operation; why should these ideas be mentioned in
           | the same breath?
           | 
           | 4. Why is the author confident about the above points, but
           | unsure about the level of "manual labor and technical
           | knowledge" that would be required?
           | 
           | Aside from that, overall it just reads like what you'd expect
           | to find in a high school essay.
           | 
           | Edit: after actually taking a look at TFA, another thing that
           | smells off to me is the way that bold text is used. It seems
           | very unnatural to me.
        
         | kubb wrote:
         | How can you even tell?
        
         | Vegenoid wrote:
         | I'm not on board with accepting AI-written articles. This is an
         | article with little to no human input, farming clicks for ad
         | revenue, that doesn't even link to the forum post, which is far
         | more interesting and has pictures:
         | https://secondlifestorage.com/index.php?threads/glubuxs-powe...
         | 
         | The article contains little detail, and has lots of filler like
         | the quote in the parent comment. It's highly upvoted on HN's
         | front page, which is surprising to me because I think there is
         | quite a bit of distaste here for low-effort content to drive
         | clicks.
         | 
         | The thing the article is referencing _is_ interesting, but the
         | article is trash.
        
           | facile3232 wrote:
           | > I'm not on board with accepting AI-written articles.
           | 
           | I haven't been on board with the "journalism" of the last
           | fifty years, but this hasn't exactly prompted it to improve.
           | Newspapers still have advertisements. Subscribers still have
           | no say over editorial staff. The board still has say over the
           | editorial staff. It's all fucked unless we can punt private
           | ownership out of the equation.
        
             | organsnyder wrote:
             | What changed fifty years ago? You're pointing out issues
             | that have existed for centuries.
        
             | namaria wrote:
             | 80% of everything is crap. This isn't a very insightful
             | position to take. One of the reasons I like Hacker News is
             | it helps me find good stuff to read. Which this article
             | isn't. So I will respectfully rebuff your rebuttal.
        
           | zonkerdonker wrote:
           | @dang, maybe we can get the link updated? This forum post is
           | better in every way
        
           | dang wrote:
           | Agreed. We changed the URL to the original source from
           | https://techoreon.com/a-man-powers-home-8-years-laptop-
           | batte..., and banned the latter site. Thanks!
           | 
           | Edit: We also changed the title (submitted title was "A man
           | powers home for eight years using a thousand old laptop
           | batteries")
        
         | immibis wrote:
         | I think a giveaway is:
         | 
         | > This task, which likely required a great deal of manual labor
         | and technical knowledge
         | 
         | If you were a human writing this, you might consider asking the
         | man how much labour and knowledge the task took. Writing AIs
         | don't ask questions.
        
         | dang wrote:
         | We detached this subthread from
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43549073 (after changing
         | the URL - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43552105)
        
       | zeroq wrote:
       | modern day coal mining
        
       | swiftcoder wrote:
       | Aside from the obvious fire risk, is this approaching the size
       | where one would have to be concerned about arc flash?
        
       | neuroelectron wrote:
       | This is silly and clearly fake.
        
       | OkGoDoIt wrote:
       | A man powers home via _solar panels and_ a thousand old laptop
       | batteries. Makes a big difference! My first thought on seeing
       | headline here was confusion, I thought maybe he was using
       | residual charge from used laptop batteries or something.
        
         | dang wrote:
         | We've since changed both the URL and the title (see
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43552105)
        
       | hoockernews wrote:
       | _scott 's tots groan_... but wait they're lithium!
        
       | jms703 wrote:
       | These April Fool's jokes are getting ridiculous. Almost had me
       | for a moment.
        
       | djmips wrote:
       | Slop
        
       | blatantly wrote:
       | Don't try this at home kids. I'd at least keep those batteries at
       | least in a dedicated steel structure 100m from the house.
        
       | em3rgent0rdr wrote:
       | Why are lithium ion phone and labtop batteries still legal
       | considering their saftey risks? There are safer battery
       | chemestries that aren't quite as energy-dense. But phones and
       | laptops were capable-enough 15 years ago and performance-per watt
       | is constantly improving. Sure, we might not be able to light up
       | all the pixels on our screen and stream gigs of data constantly
       | and won't be able to train AI models when our labtop is not
       | plugged into the wall, but we sufficed just fine on the
       | performance of last-decade's mobile devices.
        
         | reassess_blind wrote:
         | Phones and laptops were not capable enough 15 years ago for
         | what we expect of them today.
        
       | voidmain0001 wrote:
       | Here's a 2017 page from Vice https://www.vice.com/en/article/diy-
       | powerwall-builders-are-u... that refers to Glubux as being
       | French. Since the posted article doesn't say, I wanted to know
       | the climate where Glubux lives and the loads he has on the
       | system. I guess I can find more about Glubux from the
       | secondlifestorage.com site.
        
       | bsoles wrote:
       | I am a DIY electronics enthusiast, but the Internet made me
       | scared of line power applications.
       | 
       | If one of those batteries develops a short circuit and the house
       | catches fire, no insurance company on Earth would pay for
       | damages, so they say.
        
       | gridder wrote:
       | .
        
       | jakonl wrote:
       | The installations public statistics are interesting to look at.
       | Seems there was a recent addition of a generator not mentioned in
       | the article or the forum. I'm curious for an update from Glubux:
       | 
       | https://vrm.victronenergy.com/installation/13552/dashboard
        
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