[HN Gopher] It's not mold, it's calcium lactate (2018)
___________________________________________________________________
It's not mold, it's calcium lactate (2018)
Author : ilikepi
Score : 292 points
Date : 2025-03-31 14:49 UTC (8 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thephcheese.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thephcheese.com)
| karaterobot wrote:
| > Generally speaking, calcium lactate will be found on the
| outside of a cheese (usually a cheddar), and tyrosine or leucine
| crystals will be on the inside. Calcium lactate can also form on
| the inside of cheese, but tyrosine and leucine crystals cannot.
|
| ... Cannot form on the outside, presumably.
| borski wrote:
| Correct.
| geetee wrote:
| How long until cheese makers start adding the crunchy crystals to
| give the appearance of quality without the actual quality?
| borski wrote:
| Aside from cheddar (or similar), the crystals are always
| _inside_ the cheese, so the appearance is nearly the same as
| those without the crystals.
| geetee wrote:
| Sure, replace "appearance" with "impression" for a more
| accurate representation of my intent.
| borski wrote:
| Fair enough! I just meant they'd have to stick it on the
| label or something, since you wouldn't be to able to
| obviously tell the difference just by looking at it, that's
| all.
| IneffablePigeon wrote:
| This happens already, at least it does in the UK. Most cheaper
| brands of "extra mature" supermarket cheddar have added
| crystals. I don't actually mind that much - I do think it is a
| genuinely slightly more enjoyable product with the crystals.
| geetee wrote:
| Is this something they disclose on the packaging? I'm curious
| how to identify this in the cheese I buy.
| jb1991 wrote:
| There are also fake ways of accelerating aging to create this
| effect, like the Old Amsterdam cheeses you'll find in the
| Netherlands. That particular brand has a lot of fake
| qualities to it that creates these effects.
| facile3232 wrote:
| Is "fake" really the right word here if people get the
| flavor, nutrition, and texture they want? I don't really
| give a damn if they figured out a way to bypass aging to
| achieve this.
| zidad wrote:
| Fake as in, they're not allowed to call it "old cheese"
| because it's a protected term for cheese of a minimum
| age. But it might even be preferred by some because the
| texture is still a bit softer. I like it, but as with a
| good single malt, I wouldn't pay the same price if it's
| artificially aged.
| SyzygyRhythm wrote:
| The article says that the crystals don't affect the taste
| or scent. The crystals are a signal that you have a good
| cheese, but not the cause of a good cheese. Adding them
| to a bad cheese won't make it a good cheese, so in that
| sense I'd call it a fake.
|
| There is some gray area in that they affect the texture,
| which is a part of the whole experience. But that's again
| mostly signaling--we like the crunch because we associate
| it with good cheeses, not because there's anything
| inherently better about it.
|
| There are some interesting philosophical questions here.
| If you put a fake label on some wine, and people perceive
| it as higher quality than it is, is it really fake? On
| one hand, obviously yes. And yet there was a real effect
| on the perceived quality.
| facile3232 wrote:
| > The article says that the crystals don't affect the
| taste or scent.
|
| That seems hard to believe, frankly.
| borski wrote:
| Visited Gouda in the Netherlands and learned this. Best cheese
| I've ever had.
| jajko wrote:
| Old aged gouda is the best cheese I ever laid on my tongue. We
| live in Switzerland next to French border, so there is no end
| to universe of fine aged original Gruyeres, Beaufort or even
| Cheddar (but that one probably worse than what one can get in
| UK), plus all AOC Italian ones. Simply hard cheeses with grain,
| there are hundreds to choose from.
|
| I love them all, but that gouda taste is something else to me
| and my wife. French shops just around the border luckily import
| some of it, I never saw it in Switzerland shops.
|
| One way to upmark any cheese for us to put ie black truffles or
| wild black garlic in it.
|
| Talking about gouda, gotta get me some slices before kids munch
| it all again.
| borski wrote:
| Same, tbh. I love cheese. But that aged Gouda is absolutely
| memorable. I can literally taste it now haha
| goosejuice wrote:
| L'amuse will blow the mind. One of the best cheeses out there
| and I've had hundreds.
|
| Challerhocker is another great one in your neck of the woods.
| genewitch wrote:
| I've had most Dutch cheeses, and my personal favorite is
| smeerkaas, in the little gold cups.
| clmul wrote:
| People in the Netherlands are usually not at all proud of
| their cuisine, but the cheese is definitely a nice aspect (as
| someone who eats the >1 year ripened stuff almost daily)
|
| Although for me some of the French cheeses are the best. Just
| what you're used to I guess :D
| dfxm12 wrote:
| I think when someone thinks of the Platonic ideal orange
| cheese, they taste aged gouda on their tongue.
| shrubble wrote:
| Costco sells the Coastal cheddar which has a lot of this kind of
| crystals.
| stevenwoo wrote:
| The Kirkland blocks of sharp cheddar can also have these on the
| outside.
| xattt wrote:
| Tangential, but I recently noticed that natamycin, an antifungal
| agent, is being used in packages of shredded cheese as a
| preservative.
|
| I was a little taken aback on seeing it, given that antibiotic
| stewardship has been pushed so much in the last decade.
|
| I realize that natamycin is an antifungal and not an antibiotic,
| and that mechanisms of developing resistance are likely different
| between eukaryotes and prokaryotes. However, I'm still somewhat
| concerned what long-term low-level exposure will mean.
| hart_russell wrote:
| "True, fungi cannot survive if its host's internal temperature
| is over 94 degrees," says Neuman. "Currently, there are no
| reasons for fungi to evolve to withstand higher temperatures.
| But what if that were to change? What if, for instance, the
| world were to get slightly warmer? Now there is reason to
| evolve."
| ronyeh wrote:
| Thanks for reminding me to rewatch it before the new season
| comes out (soon).
| mmastrac wrote:
| When you're re-watching the first episode of the first
| season, look out for the bearded guy in the map room with
| Merle Dandridge that's upset because everyone died, that's
| me. :)
|
| I got a call to be an extra and figured what the heck, was
| totally worth it. Got to very briefly meet Craig Mazin too.
| ronyeh wrote:
| Congrats! I love that the producers worked so closely
| with the game's creators. It really shows.
| fhdkweig wrote:
| Fungi can grow inside the body. A man who was used to
| injecting heroin decided to try magic mushrooms. So, he
| expected the high to be better if he injected them too.
|
| https://www.livescience.com/magic-mushroom-injection-case-
| re...
|
| https://www.vice.com/en/article/man-injects-magic-
| mushrooms-...
| robocat wrote:
| Google. "systemic mycoses" or "mycosis internal organs". It
| isn't just the {lungs, skin, mouth, throat, urinary tract}
| that can grow molds or yeasts.
|
| A few related medical words: Cryptococcal meningitis,
| Mucormycosis, Blastomycosis, Histoplasmosis.
|
| Hopefully your brain is warmer than 34degC - perhaps avoid
| trusting zombie HBO shows for medical knowledge.
|
| I'm guessing they were riffing on the zombie-ant fungus:
| https://wikipedia.org/wiki/Ophiocordyceps_unilateralis
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Now you have me wondering if natamycin could be useful as an
| anti-fungal pesticide in my vineyard/orchard :-)
| throwway120385 wrote:
| It might not be good for the fungi in the tree roots.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| Very intense fungicides are sprayed all over these places
| already. Though most of them break down in sunlight and
| rain after a couple days.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Whiskey fungus apparently doesn't.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| Tangent on tangent - in addition to the antifungal there is
| also anticaking agent (nothing crazy, often some type of flour)
| that noticeably changes the mouthfeel of cheeses that come pre-
| shredded. If you notice a grainy texture in your food, try
| grating it off a brick instead!
| xattt wrote:
| I have been shredding my own for a while, since it's
| typically cheaper. It just happened to be that I was feeling
| lazy one particular day and bags of shredded cheese were on
| sale.
| oangemangut wrote:
| We always have blocks of hard cheese and cheddars in the
| fridge and I feel fine cutting off any moldy bits. With the
| shredded stuff, I'll forget about it and we end up binning
| lots since its impossible to tease out the bad from the
| good.
| kadoban wrote:
| Yeah, especially for things like cheese sauces I find that
| it's better to just grate it yourself. It will _not_ melt
| correctly otherwise, and the additives mess with sauces more
| than you'd think.
| silisili wrote:
| Agreed. I went down this rabbit hole last year, going as
| far as even buying sodium citrate that's supposed to help
| it melt together, with mixed results and awful taste.
|
| Never came close to anything resembling a well melted, good
| tasting sauce.
| goosejuice wrote:
| I wouldn't do this in a restaurant but a quick cheese
| sauce for something like nachos. Just pop some shredded
| cheese in the microwave with some heavy cream or half and
| half. Adjust to taste / texture. Stir well.
|
| Mornay, citrate, and evaporated milk approaches work but
| I'm lazy so I just do the cream approach for "queso".
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| Honestly for a quick cheese sauce for nachos I don't
| think you can beat Velveeta. It doesn't get easier, and I
| prefer the flavor of American cheese for things like
| that.
| goosejuice wrote:
| If you like Velveeta I guess. I can't stand it and prefer
| to use whatever melty cheese I have on hand.
|
| I always have cream and some kind of melty cheese. Buying
| Velveeta would be a specific purchase, for me, rather
| than hmm what can I make with what I have.
| superb_dev wrote:
| Melt together some velveeta and a salsa for a pretty good
| cheese dip
| silisili wrote:
| It's a bit heavy for my liking, but add some breakfast
| sausage and sour cream and you have basically every party
| queso.
| kadoban wrote:
| Velveta on its own is pretty rough (imo), but if you
| start adding anything to it, it helps a lot. Like salsa
| is the easy one.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I too have experimented with sodium citrate.
|
| I ended up with something reminiscent of movie-theater
| nacho sauce.
| jandrese wrote:
| I got a nice texture when I tried it, but it make the
| cheese too salty.
| hansvm wrote:
| Still buy your cheese in blocks and hand grate, but
| sodium citrate is better made at home for sauces I think.
| Titrate baking soda with a tart citrus juice (e.g., lime
| or lemon, whatever fits with the dish) over medium heat
| till incremental juice doesn't induce extra bubbles.
| You'll have a roughly neutral pH, citrus-flavored
| solution of sodium citrate suitable for nacho cheese and
| a variety of other dishes.
| Stratoscope wrote:
| That sounds fun and easy. I asked Miss Chatty for a
| recipe, and here's what she came up with:
|
| https://chatgpt.com/share/67eb161a-316c-8012-a9b0-95cb186
| dc8...
|
| Does that sound like it's in the ballpark, or do you have
| any comments or suggestions?
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| Pre-shredded cheese melts just fine, although I've never
| tried it in a straight cheese sauce (for those I just dice
| a block of cheese because it's easy and cheaper). But I use
| it in things like lasagna or other casserole type dishes,
| and I've never had an issue with its ability to melt
| properly.
| astura wrote:
| People are super religious about this but I've never been
| able to tell pre-shredded cheese from cheese I've shredded
| myself and I don't think anyone else can tell the difference
| in a blind taste test.
| happyopossum wrote:
| taste is subjective, so I won't argue that point (although
| I do disagree with it), however if you're going to melt the
| cheese, it's very easy to tell the difference side by side.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| The anticaking agent doesn't have an effect on taste
| afaict, but it really is a large difference in texture.
|
| Some people key more on olfaction/taste, I have nervous
| system quirks that cause me to key heavily on texture.
| kube-system wrote:
| Are you buying cheese that's shredded at the deli or
| something? The processed stuff in the bag seems to be
| plainly noticeable to me...
|
| e.g.
|
| https://www.health.com/thmb/weSqKiqtCDqtEK3nJ5HWrViwQNM=/15
| 0...
| Suppafly wrote:
| >The processed stuff in the bag seems to be plainly
| noticeable to me...
|
| Sure, when you're eating it by the handful, but when it's
| melted in a dish (the thing people typically use it for)
| you aren't going to notice.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| I wonder if there's a confounding factor here, because
| that's precisely where I tend to notice it the most. The
| anticaking agent lends a grainyness to an otherwise
| smooth foodstuff.
|
| Are you thinking more of a cheese sauce, or cheese that
| gets melted into e.g. a burrito?
| Suppafly wrote:
| My family eats a lot of shredded cheese, pre and home
| shredded, I've never noticed in anything melted nor in
| anything where it's only half melted like tacos. Any
| graininess that might be present would be far offset by
| the other ingredients, but honestly I've never tasted any
| graininess. The anticaking stuff isn't even grainy, so
| why would the resulting cheese be grainy? You can lick a
| piece of pre-shredded cheese and the anticaking stuff
| flavorlessly dissolves in your mouth. I honestly believe
| most of this "graininess" is imagined after people read
| about it on the internet or hear about it from cooking
| shows. People have convinced themselves that cellulose =
| wood (notice it's mentioned in this thread several times)
| and somehow lose the ability to critically think about
| it. While cellulose is an anticaking agent, I don't think
| I've ever seen it used for cheese. Typically you see
| cheese using a modified corn starch. The anti-caking
| agent can cause some issues if you're making cheese
| sauces specifically, but generally if you're making a
| cheese sauce you're mixing in other ingredients and then
| dumping it over macaroni or potatoes or something anyway
| and it won't matter.
| kube-system wrote:
| > While cellulose is an anticaking agent, I don't think
| I've ever seen it used for cheese. Typically you see
| cheese using a modified corn starch.
|
| I've seen potato, corn, and cellulose. I suspect the
| ideal choice depends on the type of cheese.
|
| Here's shredded parmesan with cellulose for example:
|
| https://i5.walmartimages.com/asr/42642acb-1802-40dd-
| bfa6-795...
| Suppafly wrote:
| parmesan is pretty much the only one i ever see with
| cellulose
| kelnos wrote:
| > > _While cellulose is an anticaking agent, I don 't
| think I've ever seen it used for cheese._
|
| > _parmesan is pretty much the only one i ever see with
| cellulose_
|
| Can you stop, please? You keep contradicting yourself,
| and I don't really see the purpose in repeating, over and
| over, the assertion that because you can't perceive a
| difference in something, no one else can either. That's
| pretty arrogant, and ignores, well, basically everything
| about how humans work.
|
| These subtheads here are just noise, and are distracting
| me from the rest of the interesting conversation.
| robocat wrote:
| I think you are generalizing from your own tastes.
|
| Just because you don't notice something doesn't mean that
| others don't.
|
| I started to notice this when I was hanging out with a
| very smart friend who worked as a restaurant cook. They
| just noticed heaps of stuff I didn't if we went out for a
| meal. I wasn't sure if it was training or natural
| ability.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >I started to notice this when I was hanging out with a
| very smart friend who worked as a restaurant cook. They
| just noticed heaps of stuff I didn't if we went out for a
| meal.
|
| Or they were being pretentious to try and impress you. I
| suspect even they can't tell if melted cheese within a
| dish started out pre-shredded or not.
| robocat wrote:
| You are making up stuff.
|
| Skill and pretentiousness are independent variables.
| Assuming that one is correlated with the other is a sign
| of poor judgement. I know people that fit would fit in
| each of the four quadrants {skillful-pretentious,
| unskilled-pretentious, skillful-humble, unskilled-
| humble}.
|
| Anecdotally cooks are not usually pretentious - perhaps
| in your circles or in your city things are different?
| Personally I've got little time for pretentious people.
|
| > I suspect even they can't tell if melted cheese within
| a dish started out pre-shredded or not.
|
| I didn't say that. But
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43537461 did say
| that.
|
| You can deny the reality of other people all you like. A
| more open-minded scientific approach is to listen to
| other people's experiences. People have some weird
| skills. And they believe some weird things. But yeah, it
| is hard to truly judge the skills of others.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >Anecdotally cooks are not usually pretentious
|
| Not saying they are, but the types of folks that
| constantly point out little details that only they
| themselves can seem to distinguish often are.
| robocat wrote:
| You've just made the the mistake I complained about. Let
| me edit your statement:
|
| types of folks that constantly point out little details
| that only they themselves can seem to distinguish often
| are _highly skilled_.
|
| I'm sure there plenty of things that you notice, that
| others just ignore you about (for the same reason you're
| ignoring them).
|
| Hang around some cooks, and pay attention to what they
| notice. I also know some cooks that bullshit, so it isn't
| easy.
| kelnos wrote:
| Just because you're ignorant of something, it doesn't
| mean that something isn't real, or that others can't
| perceive it.
|
| And just because someone knowledgeable shows you
| something you hadn't noticed before (and then you start
| noticing it all the time), it doesn't mean it's just all
| in your head. Being discerning about things can be
| taught. (And sometimes knowing can be a curse!)
| josephg wrote:
| Training is massive for our senses. I've been learning
| the piano lately and I'm starting to notice I'm getting
| more information from listening to music. It's really
| weird - like, I'll play an old piece I've listened to a
| thousand times. But now I can separate out the different
| parts of the song in my head now. It's obvious - how
| could I not have heard it before?
|
| I think foodies are like that. I knew one girl years ago
| from a foodie family. Anything she ate, she could list
| out all the ingredients and tell you how it was prepared.
| It was uncanny. I don't think she had a special mouth.
| Just, she came from a family which bonds through cooking.
| Their family goes on hikes where everyone cooks a fancy
| gourmet meal one night for the camp. She's been training
| her palate since she was a toddler. It shows. The
| difference is insane.
| kube-system wrote:
| > when it's melted in a dish (the thing people typically
| use it for)
|
| There are plenty of dishes that include unmelted shredded
| cheese. Salads and tacos are extremely common uses of
| shredded cheese here in the US.
| Suppafly wrote:
| Sure, and I also doubt people's ability to tell the
| difference in a blind taste comparison. People claiming
| to do so visually see the anti-caking agent, they don't
| taste it. It doesn't taste grainy. You can taste a bit of
| corn starch or cellulose directly and tell that it
| doesn't taste 'grainy' or even have much of a flavor at
| all.
| kube-system wrote:
| The point of the anti-caking agent is to prevent the
| cheese from sticking to itself, which inherently affects
| the texture of the cheese in your mouth... it doesn't
| stick to itself the same way freshly shredded cheese
| does, particularly if the cheese is soft and sticky like
| processed american cheeses. Although it is likely less
| noticeable for dryer and harder cheeses.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >The point of the anti-caking agent is to prevent the
| cheese from sticking to itself, which inherently affects
| the texture of the cheese in your mouth
|
| It does so by keeping the cheese 'dryer' than it normally
| would be. Putting it in your mouth basically undoes that.
| You're only going to notice if you're eating it by the
| handful, not when you're using it in actual food dishes.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _It does so by keeping the cheese 'dryer' than it
| normally would be. Putting it in your mouth basically
| undoes that._
|
| That's not how chemistry works.
| josephg wrote:
| You seem very certain that you know how my mouth works. I
| promise you, you don't.
|
| I'm a super taster. I did a test when I was 20. You take
| a macro photo of your tongue and count the taste buds in
| a 1cm square spot. From what I read at the time, the
| average person has 25 taste buds per sq cm. I have 40.
| Some people have as few as 10. Imagine how different food
| must taste to all of us!
|
| And flavours don't just "scale up". Some flavours are way
| too strong for me - like, spinach is super strong. If
| spinach is on pizza, all I taste is spinach. I can't
| taste anything else and I may as well be eating a salad.
| I can't eat dark chocolate - it tastes like a punch in
| the mouth with wood ash. And I've never been able to
| drink coffee.
|
| One of my all time favorite meals is plain pasta with
| butter and grated Parmesan. So simple. So yummy. But pre
| shredded cheese doesn't melt the same way on pasta - and
| the difference is obvious to my mouth. Shredded Parmesan
| cheese has a much weaker cheese taste - even from the
| same brand. And the texture is all wrong.
|
| Maybe your mouth can't tell the difference. But don't
| claim to know how my mouth works. I suspect if we could
| trade mouths for the day, we'd both be shocked.
| rdlw wrote:
| > It does so by keeping the cheese 'dryer' than it
| normally would be. Putting it in your mouth basically
| undoes that.
|
| By this logic, shouldn't croutons and cubes of fresh
| bread be indistinguishable?
| kelnos wrote:
| Maybe _you_ don 't notice, but I notice that it doesn't
| melt properly with those anti-caking agents in it.
| parliament32 wrote:
| Perhaps the best example is parmesan. You should buy a
| small brick and shred it, then compare to the Kraft tube we
| all know -- the difference is massive.
| kadoban wrote:
| Is that Kraft parmesan even cheese? It seems like mostly
| filler, it barely tastes like anything.
|
| Not sure that's necessarily a fair test if people are
| otherwise talking about shredded cheese that at least you
| can see what the bulk material is and that it vaguely
| resembles cheese.
| voidmain0001 wrote:
| 2016 report from Bloomberg on what "cellulose" means in
| grated Parmesan cheese. https://archive.ph/I3OuD
| craftkiller wrote:
| I've had both and I'm going to have to disagree with you
| here. For the other cheeses, buying a brick is always the
| right choice. For parmesan, if its going on pasta I'm
| picking the green plastic tube of presumably mostly
| filler 100% of the time. Brick parm lacks the proper
| texture and has too strong of a flavor. Green tube
| mystery powder I can pour onto my pasta in mounds that
| then absord the butter making a soft delicious wet sand.
| Sometimes if I'm looking for a snack I just pour the
| green tube mystery powder directly into my mouth.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| This, I think, is a case of Different Thing Same Name.
|
| The same way that coffee runs the gamut between the
| gnarliest of instant coffees to 3rd wave single-origin
| craft brews. Almost every step of the production chain is
| different, and while they're all technically coffee,
| they're basically different products, that get enjoyed in
| different contexts. Weirdly, I enjoy a 80s style black
| coffee when I'm at the greasy spoon around the corner -
| it just feels right.
|
| Your Green Tube Mystery Powder is a product sold under a
| name that is probably technically correct (Parmesan) but
| the "real thing" is a product that behaves completely
| differently and doesn't meet your wants or needs.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Totally agree. Green tube powder is awesome on cheap
| pizza and cheap pasta.
|
| Real parm is awesome shaved in salads, mixed in fancy
| pasta or risotto, etc.
|
| But they are as different as cheddar and mozzarella. They
| taste nothing alike.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| > Brick parm lacks the proper texture and has too strong
| of a flavor.
|
| That's exactly why I use Parmesan from a block of cheese.
| It has so much more flavor, and I find that far superior.
| That doesn't make you wrong, of course... taste is
| subjective. Just thought it was funny that we have
| opposite views on the stronger flavor.
| bityard wrote:
| I'll buy parm wedges if I'm making a sauce or salad
| dressing, but where/when I grew up, you weren't living
| unless you dumped at least a half cup of Green Tube
| Mystery Powder on top of your plate of spaghetti.
| kelnos wrote:
| Huh, that's funny. I _love_ the flavor and texture of
| parm from a brick. I am usually far too lazy to grate my
| own though, and do use the pre-grated stuff often. But on
| the occasion where I do grate my own, or am in a
| restaurant where it 's done for me, I resolve to grate it
| myself more often.
|
| This is all just a matter of taste, though. Sounds like
| maybe you grew up with the green tube mystery powder, and
| developed a liking for it, and that's "parm" for you. You
| never developed a taste for the "real" stuff, and that's
| fine! We all like what we like, and no one should tell us
| that we're liking it wrong. (I, too, grew up with the
| green tube mystery powder, but my tastes changed. It
| happens.)
|
| > _Sometimes if I 'm looking for a snack I just pour the
| green tube mystery powder directly into my mouth._
|
| This made me chuckle; I used to do the same thing when I
| was a kid (despite the disapproving look from my mother).
| I've tried it as an adult though, and now I don't like it
| (not quite "gross", but not something I enjoy).
| 91bananas wrote:
| Actual Parmesan Reggiano and kraft tube are not even
| meant to be compared...
| dghughes wrote:
| Kraft brand Parmesan has cellulose in it too I don't
| think many people read the ingredients. It's funny more
| than anything.
|
| I started buying real block of Parmesan cheese and it's
| certainly different more sour. The crystals closes to the
| rind are where the flavour is. Kraft may not even be
| Parmesan US laws allow other types of cheaper cheese and
| lots of cellulose sometimes 40%. edit: I should note the
| crystals theory is from a Parmesan factory documentary.
| Is it true? They seem to believe it is.
|
| I think it's to the point now where Kraft and real
| Parmesan are close to the same price especially if you
| factor in less cellulose in the real stuff.
| crazygringo wrote:
| The cellulose isn't there as filler, it's to prevent
| clumping. You need it.
|
| And the finer the cheese is grated, the more surface
| area, so the more cellulose you need.
|
| It's not optional.
|
| (Also no idea what crystals you're talking about, but you
| don't eat the rind. You can save it to add flavor to
| soups though, taking it back out at the end. That's just
| more about not wasting it since it's inedible though.)
| s0rce wrote:
| I find the pre-packaged parmesan and a block of imported
| cheese are fundamentally different products and not
| really interchangeable. They both work well in their own
| way and I will enjoy them depending on what I feel like
| eating.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Sure, but that's more to do with the quality of the
| Parmesan to begin with. Not the shredding.
|
| If you want a proper comparison, use a consistent cheddar
| or mozzarella from the same brand. When preshredded it
| tends to be drier, but melted there's little difference.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| I dont know if I can tell on taste but the difference in
| mouth feel is huge. The shredded version has wood dust on
| it to keep it from sticking and you can definitely feel it
| against the cheese in the mouth vs much more smooth/liable
| to clump together hand shredded off the block cheese.
| astura wrote:
| I bet you can't feel it in a blind taste test.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >People are super religious about this but I've never been
| able to tell pre-shredded cheese from cheese I've shredded
| myself and I don't think anyone else can tell the
| difference in a blind taste test.
|
| This. In actual dish, I doubt most could taste any
| difference. You only really notice when it's not melted
| fully or not melted at all.
| wholinator2 wrote:
| That's actually crazy to me. Like, a sealed, generic brand
| bag from the cold section of a chain grocery store vs a
| block purchased from the deli and shredded by hand? The
| difference is massive! Taste will vary between the two
| anyways but the texture difference is categorical. The pre
| shredded has grainy flour like stuff all over it, the
| manually shredded is completely smooth with no graininess
| at all. I can 1000% tell the difference in any kind of test
| you want to do.
|
| Where are you buying cheese that this comparison isn't
| noticable?
| gambiting wrote:
| >>The difference is massive!
|
| Like...in what way? If I buy a block of Aldi's cheddar
| and Aldi's pre-shredded cheese it tastes the same once
| it's mixed into something - except the block saves me
| like 20p and wastes 10 minutes of my life on grating and
| cleaning up afterwards.
| kelnos wrote:
| > _Like...in what way?_
|
| GP literally told you the ways in their post: texture.
| Taste will vary regardless of the anti-caking agent, of
| course.
| gambiting wrote:
| Well, I can't tell personally, but good on OP for being
| able to tell.
| dwighttk wrote:
| most of my pre-shreded cheese has no such grainy flour
| like stuff all over it... Harris Teeter, but Kroger
| before that... I think I can remember _once_ getting a
| bag with _some_ noticeable anti-caking agent... in my
| life.
| s0rce wrote:
| I typically find the anticaking agents are very obvious,
| you can often feel them with your fingers and see them in
| the appearance of the product.
| tombrossman wrote:
| I was taught to use a little cornstarch sprinkled over
| freshly grated cheese, and to me it is undetectable
| (served hot or cold) and works amazingly well. The shreds
| never clump together and are easy to scatter evenly.
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| it's wood pulp. sawdust derivative. aka cellulose.
|
| don't buy pre-shredded cheese unless you like replacing up to
| 10% of your cheese with essentially sawdust at a premium.
|
| https://www.eater.com/2016/3/3/11153876/cheese-wood-pulp-
| cel...
| happyopossum wrote:
| A) Sometimes it's cellulose - corn starch and other anti-
| caking agents are also used
|
| B) it's legally limited to 4%, not 10%
| wahnfrieden wrote:
| That's fine to say it is so on paper however the legal
| limit is not respected with several common household
| brands testing at 8-9% in last results I can find.
| They're incentivized to pad the product with anti caking
| agents to reduce cost, and it is essentially unenforced.
| Expect this to worsen as FDA is undergoing planned
| dismantlement.
| 0xffff2 wrote:
| Can you link to some of this testing?
| whyenot wrote:
| Please provide a link to back this up. The Eater.com
| article you linked to elsewhere is from 2016 and refers
| to a specific enforcement action where a company plead
| guilty to food adulteration for adding excessive
| cellulose to parmesan cheese. Not a great example of
| something being "essentially unenforced."
| lupusreal wrote:
| Cellulose is literally not sawdust. It could be made from
| sawdust, but would be heavily processed and refined,
| removing lignin/etc.
| bityard wrote:
| Nope, the shredded cheese I buy uses potato starch. And
| it's definitely a trace amount, not 10%.
| whyenot wrote:
| Cellulose is not "wood pulp" or "sawdust." Only about 50%
| of sawdust is cellulose. The rest is hemicellulose, lignin,
| resins, and oils. Any plant material that you eat contains
| cellulose. It's just about the most benign thing you could
| add to food as an anti-caking agent. ...not matter what the
| eater.com article with the attention grabbing headline that
| you linked to might say.
| CGMthrowaway wrote:
| Anti-caking agent can be either cellulose ("sawdust"), potato
| starch, or calcium sulfate
| whyenot wrote:
| I know you put it in quotes, but only about 50% of sawdust
| is cellulose. The remainder is hemicellulose, lignin,
| resins, and oils. Some shredded cheese use pure cellulose
| as an anti-caking agent, not sawdust.
| CGMthrowaway wrote:
| Natamycin was discovered in 1955 has been widely used as a food
| preservative ever since.
|
| Especially cheese and bread, but also fruit, meat and peanuts.
|
| Typically adds between 1 week and 1 month of shelf life to
| products in the typical doses
| GloamingNiblets wrote:
| Given our developing understanding of the importance of the
| human microbiome, which includes fungi (the mycobiome), I
| steer clear of anti fungal preservatives in my food
| personally.
|
| Just because something has been used since 1955 doesn't mean
| it's all good.
| almosthere wrote:
| If you look, you can still find shredded cheeses without this,
| but it's usually pretty rare now.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >If you look, you can still find shredded cheeses without
| this, but it's usually pretty rare now.
|
| You're quite correct. Thankfully, my local has me covered
| with that![0][1]
|
| The stuff without preservatives definitely doesn't last as
| long, but the difference in taste/texture makes all the
| difference.
|
| [0] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-87892
|
| [1] https://shop.wmarketnyc.com/s/1000-1052/i/INV-1000-89151
|
| Edit: Fixed link formatting.
| hettygreen wrote:
| All the more reason to Make America Grate Again..
|
| I'm here all night folks.
| foxyv wrote:
| Cheesy jokes on Hacker News? I approve.
| matheusmoreira wrote:
| Antifungal resistance is actually a thing. Fungi can evolve or
| acquire resistance mechanisms against antifungals, just like
| bacteria and antibiotics.
|
| Arguably it's an even bigger problem than antibiotic
| resistance: fungi are eukaryotes, just like us, and in practice
| this means we have less chemical weapons to fight them with.
| Losing the relatively small arsenal we have would be quite
| bothersome to say the least.
|
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5587015/
| foxyv wrote:
| I stopped buying pre-shredded cheese a decade ago. Block cheese
| is cheaper, lasts longer, and cooks better. Pre-shredded is
| just worse in every way aside from convenience. Using a cheap
| rotary grater like they have in restaurants makes this almost a
| non-issue.
| m463 wrote:
| anything shelf-stable, hydrogenated peanut butter, highly
| processed milk, etc
|
| I'm starting to wonder if convenience =
| 1/healthy
|
| hopefully not bananas though.
| tcdent wrote:
| bananas are a socioeconomic catastrophe
| josephg wrote:
| My partner read a book on food recently. They made an
| obvious point I'd never thought of before: Food is eaten in
| our stomachs by bacteria. If the bacteria in our stomachs
| can't (or won't) eat something, that means it's not
| digestible. That means it's not food.
|
| If something is shelf stable, that's because the bacteria
| can't or won't eat it. If bacteria doesn't want to eat
| something, it's not food. And you probably don't want it in
| your stomach.
|
| Some things are shelf stable by physically keeping the
| bacteria out of it (eg canned food). That seems fine. But
| how do they make shelf stable cheesy / creamy products?
| Bacteria loves cheese. They do it with weird additives and
| substitutes that - by design - bacteria hates. But that
| also means our bodies can't really eat it either - since we
| use the same bacteria in our stomach to digest things.
|
| Plenty of healthy things are convenient. Like, apples! But
| healthy food is rarely shelf stable. Almost by definition.
| tabular wrote:
| That sounds like an extremely pseudo-scientific book. For
| the real explanation, see
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity
| celeritascelery wrote:
| I am not very well read on this topic, but it seems like
| there are other ways to make shelf stable food that
| doesn't necessarily make it harder to digest. For example
| high salt or sugar contents, or removing most of the
| water. These make it harder for bacteria in the
| environment but don't pose a barrier when mixed up in
| your gut.
|
| Granted, you can't do that with shredded cheese. which is
| why it has to be refrigerated and will eventually go bad.
| Xylakant wrote:
| But that's not really true. Humans have for thousands of
| years tried and succeeded to make food not palatable to
| bacteria. Drying stuff is comparatively simple, but
| salting, smoking it, by either adding acid or fermenting
| (which makes the bacteria produce the acid that inhibits
| them), by adding alcohol (or again, letting the bacteria
| produce the alcohol), by introducing organisms that
| produce bactericides - namely fungi (cheese mold) that
| produce antibiotics. By adding sugar. Honey is shelf
| stable beyond your wildest dream. There's a lot of ways
| to get things shelf stable that use natural ingredients
| only and are - at least in reasonable amounts - perfectly
| safe to eat.
|
| Your body will do a lot of work on food before it is in
| the end absorbed. It adds enzymes that break up molecular
| bonds. It will use acid on it. You will mash it with
| physical energy. It will be watered down and mixed and in
| the end, the molecules will be absorbed by your body.
|
| That doesn't mean that you should eat just about
| everything, that's not true. But I believe making the
| connection via "bacteria won't eat that, it's not good"
| doesn't make a good point.
| askvictor wrote:
| Generally you're either killing _all_ of the bacteria the
| sealing the product to prevent new ones entering, or
| creating an environment that's too hostile for them to
| live (environments high in salt, sugar, acid, or fat, or
| low in moisture, all make achieve this)
|
| Also, our stomach is full of acid, the purpose of which
| is to kill bacteria. Later on, in the intestine, you have
| a colony of microbes.
|
| Pickled or fermented food is very healthy, and shelf
| stable. We've been doing that for millenia to preserve
| food.
|
| It's not as simple as you suggest.
| dwighttk wrote:
| >But how do they make shelf stable cheesy / creamy
| products?
|
| pasteurization and keeping further bacteria out is one
| way to do it
| hollerith wrote:
| >Food is eaten in our stomachs by bacteria. If the
| bacteria in our stomachs can't (or won't) eat something,
| that means it's not digestible.
|
| Both of these are false. Bacteria are not needed for the
| proper function of the human stomach (or the small
| intestine). The human body produces digestive enzymes,
| HCl and bile (and maybe bicarbonate) which combined will
| digest most foods without any help from bacteria.
|
| Bacteria _are_ needed in the large intestine to convert
| fiber into short-chain fatty acids (SCFAs), but a person
| can live for many years without any of these SCFAs '
| being produced in the large intestine, although the
| person probably would be less healthy.
| josephg wrote:
| There's more and more content these days talking about
| "the new science of gut bacteria" and talking about how
| important it is to our health and wellbeing.
|
| Do you think all that is bunk / pseudoscience?
| hollerith wrote:
| Gut bacteria in the _large intestine_ are generally
| considered (including by me) important for human health
| although again you would not starve to death or die of
| malnutrition if they all went away because the vast
| majority of the calories a person in the developed world
| gets are from foods that bacteria is not needed at all to
| digest and make use of those calories. Our ancestors
| 1000s of years ago however probably went through lean
| periods in which most of their nutrition came from very
| fibrous plant material with very little starches and free
| sugars in them, and in that situation, the calories from
| the SCFAs produced by gut bacteria might have often made
| the difference between survival and starving to death.
| bc_programming wrote:
| We don't digest food exclusively with bacteria. They play
| a role, of course, but our digestion is done through
| things with hydrochloric acid and various enzymes
| produced by the stomach. The bacteria in our stomach is
| pretty much strains that can both survive the acidic
| environment and can consume things we cannot digest at
| all. Various fibers, for example. They help as they
| consume it and shit out stuff we can digest. Often the
| things they consume that are indigestible to us are the
| result of our own breakdown of other compounds; making
| the process symbiotic.
|
| Also, the environment on a kitchen counter is wildly
| different than the environment inside out stomach, so
| airborne bacteria- even if we were to presume these were
| the exact same kinds of bacteria present in our stomach -
| being uninterested in foods in the open air doesn't
| really translate to the idea that the food is
| indigestible. Many gut bacteria rely on us to break down
| foods into the things that they can digest, so a colony
| couldn't start on the surface of the same food(s) in the
| open air.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Yeah no this is nonsense powdered by pseudoscience and a
| wrong premise. Food is not eaten in our stomachs by
| bacteria, please look up some basic biology and consider
| correcting your post accordingly. At least your incorrect
| post isn't dangerous per se.
| tshaddox wrote:
| Isn't the convenient version of something always worse in
| every way aside from convenience than the less convenient
| version of the same thing?
| twojacobtwo wrote:
| Definitely not "always" and "in every way".
|
| Random example. I buy a meal made by a professional chef
| and have it delivered. It's more convenient and it's a much
| better meal than I could make. It's more expensive, sure,
| but that's not 'in every way'
| djtango wrote:
| But within the same example its not as good as if you ate
| the exact same meal freshly served - things won't be as
| hot and certain textures will be lost in delivery (eg
| crispy things going soggy)
|
| You mentioned a chef which is less specific but I
| generally consider restaurant food less healthy than what
| I'd cook for myself due to differing incentives which is
| another dimension for convenience
| twojacobtwo wrote:
| Indeed, but that's a different choice than the original.
| If leaving my house isn't an option for me, the
| subsequent options entailed are then off the table, so to
| speak. The OP said "always" and "in every way", and I was
| pointing out that there are many exceptions, depending on
| many factors.
| lynx97 wrote:
| That example actually underlines parents point. Because,
| yes, delivered food is convenient. However, at least in
| my experience, delivered food from a professional chef is
| always inferior to what I'd get if I actually visited the
| same restaurant. Yes, packaging has improved and fried
| stuff isn't as gross at it used to be, but it is still
| not the same level of quality compared to actually going
| there.
| twojacobtwo wrote:
| Yeah, if you break it down further into the set of all
| possible options, but it depends what my
| criteria/realistic choices are. If I'm not going to or
| can't leave my house, then the more convenient option is
| still the better one.
|
| My exception was to the terms "always" and "in every
| way".
| xp84 wrote:
| With the caveat that the ways it's "worse" can easily be
| irrelevant compared to the convenience.
|
| For instance, I buy way more shredded cheese than blocks.
| It removes an annoying step that creates a dirty utensil
| that isn't trivial to clean (grater). If I'm making 3
| quesadillas a day for picky children to eat at different
| snack or mealtimes, I don't want to own 3 shredders, nor to
| have to carefully scrub the cheese off it 3x per day.
|
| I haven't noticed any important difference in the cheese
| besides saving me like 15 minutes a day of fussing with
| cheese graters.
| foxyv wrote:
| My parents bought pre-grated as well. It's a great option
| for someone with kids.
|
| However, I would recommend grating a block for a couple
| days worth at a time and keeping it in the fridge in a
| food storage container. That way you don't need 3
| shredders or to spend all your time cleaning shredders
| every time you want a quesadilla. An electric rotary
| shredder or a kitchen-aide attachment makes it trivial.
|
| Also, try adding a little canned Red Enchilada sauce to
| your quesadilla or egg and cheese burritos. It's life
| changing!
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| I dunno, to be pedantic, cheese is a convenient version of
| milk. I like both though.
| foxyv wrote:
| Restaurants are usually better than home cooking. However,
| I have rarely found the more convenient option to be
| cheaper and it is usually worse. It's a bit of an iron
| triangle. Cheap, convenient, good.
| Animats wrote:
| > Block cheese is cheaper, lasts longer, and cooks better.
|
| Is this a promotion for the National Cheese Stockpile?[1] The
| US has about 1.5 billion pounds of cheese in storage in a
| cave in Missouri. Really. There's a USDA welfare program for
| dairy farmers, and they have to put the excess milk
| somewhere. So it's made into cheese and stored.
|
| [1] https://modernfarmer.com/2022/05/cheese-caves-missouri/
| xp84 wrote:
| Funny, the same US that is in a stupid trade war where
| dairy is one of the disputed areas, is doing absurd
| subsidies of dairy. What an incongruous set of policies.
| foxyv wrote:
| You can't really buy "Government Cheese." It used to be
| given out as part of food assistance programs in the US. I
| guess it was pretty okay cheese too. I think it's mostly
| given out as food assistance to other countries now since
| we moved over to SNAP debit cards.
| niemandhier wrote:
| Obligatory reference to the excellent book: The Science of Cheese
| by Michael H. Tunick.
|
| This book is an in depth scientific introduction to, exactly,
| cheese. A great read, you can feel the passion the man has for
| his work!
| stevenwoo wrote:
| I'm now kind of upset at myself that I have thrown out perfectly
| good Cheddar in the past due to white spots.
| sphars wrote:
| I actually did this yesterday to a block of cheese and now I
| regret it
| coldpie wrote:
| For firm & hard cheeses, the bad molds very rarely penetrate
| the surface. If you get some questionable looking mold on the
| outer surface, you can cut off the outer couple of mm and enjoy
| the remainder just fine. For rustic/home made cheeses, handling
| the "bad" mold on the outer surface is a normal part of the
| aging process before it makes it to the customer anyway.
| https://cheesemaking.com/blogs/learn/how-to-bandaging-chedda...
| tacitusarc wrote:
| No, that is most likely mold. Not all white spots are positive,
| especially if they are on old cheese in the fridge (as per the
| article).
| stevenwoo wrote:
| It does give a method of testing at home at the end, though,
| with hard being crystal and soft being mold.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Even if it is mold, just remove it off the surface. It
| doesn't penetrate far on hard cheeses like Gouda.
|
| Also the reason why I don't buy pre-grated cheese, it doesn't
| age well. It also tends to be lower quality to begin with.
| ahartmetz wrote:
| Also, if you get bright white(!) spots on cheese like Brie
| (which is made with white fungus), it's usually just the cheese
| "reactivating". You - theoretically - don't even need to cut
| off anything.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| I've eaten brie weeks after sell by date. It just turns into
| a firmer cheese by then no striking difference in taste
| really.
| ahartmetz wrote:
| Yeah, not much seems to happen to Brie - it stays fairly
| mild. Unlike Camembert, which gets significantly stronger
| and runnier over time.
| Agingcoder wrote:
| It depends on the Brie - pasteurized or not, from
| Meaux/Melun/etc. I find Unpasteurized Brie de Melun to be
| very strong.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| I remember having a brie-like cheese cut in half and left
| forgotten in the fridge for more than a month. The mold had
| reformed completely, as if it they were made like this in the
| first place.
|
| It tasted fine, no one got sick. Kind of underwhelming to be
| honest, but it wasn't particularly tasty to begin with:
| industrial cheese, pasteurized milk. It fact, that it still
| had some life in it surprised me.
| ahartmetz wrote:
| Fun! I've never let it come that far. Was it somehow fuzzy
| or really like the firm, white skin that it has when you
| buy it?
| dekhn wrote:
| Cheese crystals are umami. Many of them are glutamate crystals. I
| am curious if the other amino crystals have a similar flavor
| profile.
| jsbg wrote:
| In the sense that they contribute to umami taste, yes. But most
| commonly the nucleotides inosinate (from meat and fish) and
| guanylate (from dried mushrooms) are the other molecules that
| provide umami flavors.
| facile3232 wrote:
| Also MSG, obviously.
| sophacles wrote:
| The G in MSG is glutamate, so not an "also"... as its been
| covered by OP.
| facile3232 wrote:
| Ah, I found the phrasing quite confusing.
| rbrownmh wrote:
| The umami flavor of cheese, especially hard cheeses, is
| incredibly under appreciated. And I'll never understand the
| popularity of pre-shredded cheese...
| frereubu wrote:
| Me either, but a relative who worked in processed foods told
| me the reason it exists isn't just lazy consumers, it's made
| from the oddly-shaped (by supermarket standards) offcuts that
| they can't sell otherwise.
| dekhn wrote:
| Umami is a lot more present that people recognize. I've built
| up an intuition for this over the years, and also sort of
| trained my tongue.
|
| What we call umami is a subjective experience that has an
| underlying molecular cause, but it's complicated: more than
| one molecule contributes to the sensation, different foods
| have different molecules, many people can't recognize it on
| its own, etc.
|
| The most easily recognized umami tastes seem to come from
| hydrolyzed soy protein and yeast extracts- both are added to
| tons of food. The canonical example is Doritos, which are a
| masterpiece of modern food industrial optimization. Doritos
| are mostly corn, but they also add whey (cheese derived
| umami), MSG (molecular, isolated glutamate in salt form),
| buttermilk (multiple flavors including umami), romano cheese
| (more umami!), tomato powder (umami), inositate (umami). It's
| basically an umami bomb.
|
| From what I can tell, the best umami flavors come from a
| combination of several different molecules combined with some
| salt. the combination seems to potentiate the flavor
| significantly. You can also saturate out your receptors- if
| you drink a highly concentrated broth, you'll see there's
| some upper limit to the amount of umami you can taste and
| after that, additional aminos are just wasted.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| > I'll never understand the popularity of pre-shredded
| cheese...
|
| If spending too much time in eve online taught me anything,
| it's that convenience is worth money. People are inherently
| lazy, and there's plenty of ways to exploit that.
|
| The next level of pre-grated cheese is frozen pizza, for
| example.
| WillPostForFood wrote:
| I've always loved the crunch in a good Gouda, and it's really fun
| to read some details about tyrosine crystals that cause it.
| jinushaun wrote:
| Like adding acid to fake sourdough...
| 7speter wrote:
| Was proud I planned out buying a couple of pounds of cheddar from
| the supermarket and keeping it in our spare fridge for a year and
| had aged cheddar for Thanksgiving baked mac and cheese last
| November.
| floren wrote:
| If you're ever in Pullman, Washington, stop in at the WSU dairy
| store and get a few cans of Cougar Gold cheddar. Cheese in a
| can sounds weird, but it's delicious, made by the students, and
| it ages really well -- I've got some cans in my fridge which
| are coming up on a decade old now. It's kind of a waste to use
| an aged can for mac and cheese, but I used part of a younger
| can for mac & cheese and it came out beautifully.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| As a Penn State grad I feel like WSU and PSU need to have a
| creamery-off for charity or something.
| talkingtab wrote:
| It seems wrong to me that most of what people now call cheese is
| not at all like what I think of as "real cheese". I have ended up
| making cheese and it is both fascinating, productive and tasty.
| While there are many "recipes" for cheeses, they are mainly
| focused on preparing the cheese for aging. These are often
| techniques, like washing the curd (gouda) or cheddaring
| (cheddar).
|
| The aging part takes more work. I converted a 7.5 CU refrigerator
| using an Inkbird temp controller. That works surprisingly well.
| Currently I'm attempting to improve the humidity control with a
| humidity version of the Inkbird.
|
| But highly recommended. I have everything I made (even the
| failures) with the exception of one of the first attempts.
| anamexis wrote:
| What do you think of as "real cheese"?
| talkingtab wrote:
| In Europe, and at gourmet cheese stores, you get a slice from
| a wheel. It is alive, in the sense that it has not been
| "treated" to increase shelf life. A wheel of cheese is like a
| little biome or green house or garden in a bottle. The rind
| of the cheese is the wall. It allows the cheese to breathe,
| but in a way that preserves the life inside it. Once the
| wheel is cut, the bottle is broken, and while the cheese can
| be kept for a time, it will start to degrade. The humidity
| (~80-85 %) is important so the cheese does not dry out and it
| does not become a nice home for unwanted mold, bacteria and
| fungus. The temp of ~55 F is also important so that the
| little things can live but don't start over growing.
|
| If it comes from a wheel where it was aged, almost any cheese
| is good - depending on your particular taste. The aged ones
| with crystals are great, especially Dutch ones, but "local"
| cheese is almost always wonderful.
|
| I was in Colby, Wisconsin a couple of times and I found the
| local Colby cheese to be good. Many locally made cheese are
| good, but again if they are bagged in plastic then they do
| not compare with the "real" thing.
| eric-hu wrote:
| Thank you for sharing your experience!
|
| This is something I've been curious about. Can you speak more
| about how you got into it? What kind of research did you do
| before getting started? Did you know anyone else who had done
| it before you got into it?
| xandrius wrote:
| These "most" people might be country specific.
|
| I make cheese myself (both fresh and year-long aged ones) and
| virtually all the people I met knew what real cheese was.
|
| If it is the "ultra-processed" cheese what you are referring
| to, that might not be liked by some but that's still cheese,
| regardless of its plastic-y feel.
| khazhoux wrote:
| > It seems wrong to me that most of what people now call cheese
| is not at all like what I think of as "real cheese"
|
| Not sure at all what you're referring to. Surely it's not
| "american cheese", which has been the punchline of obvious
| cheese jokes for decades. Or the powder in mac & cheese boxes,
| which is its own thing.
|
| From where I stand, I see grocery stores in the USA stocking
| large varieties of cheddars, fontina, gouda... all "real
| cheese."
| brundolf wrote:
| Until early adulthood the only cheese I really knew was kraft
| slices, kraft parmesan powder, bags of pre-shredded, etc.
| Literally buying cheese by the block turned my world upside
| down
| Tade0 wrote:
| I spent a couple of months in Switzerland for a project and
| supermarkets there often have this booth that me and my friends
| referred to as the "Kingdom of Cheese".
|
| The Kingdom of Cheese is a climate-controlled enclave with just
| cheese - the person there is happy to help you decide because
| they know you'll be back eventually as indeed the products there
| have those crystals.
| EA-3167 wrote:
| Back eventually? I'd personally set up a little tent in the
| foyer and live there year 'round, like an increasingly portly
| mouse.
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