[HN Gopher] Why a plane turned around when a passenger lost a ph...
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       Why a plane turned around when a passenger lost a phone midflight
        
       Author : bookofjoe
       Score  : 61 points
       Date   : 2025-03-30 12:50 UTC (10 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.washingtonpost.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.washingtonpost.com)
        
       | bookofjoe wrote:
       | https://archive.ph/x1d1c
        
       | mysterydip wrote:
       | Is the risk of a phone overheating and exploding the battery less
       | if the owner knows where it is?
        
         | mitthrowaway2 wrote:
         | Yes, because if you know where it is, you likely also know it's
         | not wedged into a seat hinge getting crushed as you attempt to
         | recline.
        
         | jyounker wrote:
         | I think the fear is that the user's phone is in the checked
         | luggage.
        
           | protimewaster wrote:
           | At least in the USA, cell phones are allowed checked luggage.
           | However, they are supposed to be powered of and "protected up
           | prevent unintentional activation or damage".
           | 
           | I realize this was an Air France flight, but I suspect the
           | checked rules are nearly the same.
        
         | op00to wrote:
         | Overheating? Maybe. Preventing explosion? Absolutely.
        
       | potato3732842 wrote:
       | Once you know about something you have to "do something" even if
       | that something is stupid.
        
         | barbazoo wrote:
         | There is definitely truth to that. Example: Post 9/11 security
         | theatre.
        
       | bilsbie wrote:
       | How did they know the phone was lost?
        
         | Polizeiposaune wrote:
         | Presumably a passenger came to them and asked for help
         | extracting their phone from a crevice in a seat.
         | 
         | If this keeps happening, providing an on-board toolkit and
         | cross-training flight attendants in proper seat disassembly and
         | reassembly could well pay off.
        
           | bookofjoe wrote:
           | Insurance companies and legal departments will nip that idea
           | in the bud.
        
             | eqvinox wrote:
             | Turkish Airlines did exactly that (partially disassemble
             | the seat) on a flight I've been on a little while ago.
             | (Someone lost their phone in a business class seat.)
             | 
             | The risks seem to be lower than the ones associated with
             | landing with a device stuck somewhere.
             | 
             | What I don't understand is why they don't construct the
             | seats for less chances of things getting lost in them. Some
             | seats have _huge_ holes to lose things in...
        
               | burnished wrote:
               | Huge holes are a lower risk since objects simply pass
               | through
        
               | eqvinox wrote:
               | Except these holes open into the seat electromechanics,
               | where moving the seat can easily catch and crush a
               | phone...
               | 
               | (Business class seats can adjust themselves with a person
               | sitting in them, quite sure that's enough force to 'fold'
               | a phone)
        
       | jongjong wrote:
       | It's crazy to think that anyone could, at no cost to themselves,
       | cause a large commercial plane to be turned around and wipe out
       | maybe $1 million dollars of value from the economy; if you count
       | fuel costs, staff costs, lost hours of hundreds of passengers.
        
         | Quarondeau wrote:
         | Airlines have hugely benefited from moving travelers from paper
         | tickets to the use of their phones, where everything is done in
         | the airline's app. Even if a few flights get turned around now
         | and then, that seems trivial compared to the benefits:
         | 
         | - No need to print/distribute physical tickets
         | 
         | - Check-ins via the app reduces the need for ground personnel
         | 
         | - They can push inflight menus, shopping items, promotions etc.
         | 
         | - Flight updates and other notifications can get pushed to your
         | device
         | 
         | - Integration of loyalty systems like airmiles
         | 
         | - They get to track various user behaviors
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | Passengers have benefited as well. Traditional tickets
           | weren't quite like cash but they were a big hassle to replace
           | if lost.
        
         | rlpb wrote:
         | This sort of thing happens all the time, just less obviously.
         | For example in my city it's not unusual to hear that a major
         | tram line is stopped during the morning commute due to a car
         | driver blocking it inconsiderately or colliding.
         | 
         | Once amortized against successful journeys the overall cost per
         | passenger isn't significant. When it is, that's when we start
         | seeing liability moved to the instigator.
        
         | happytoexplain wrote:
         | This train of reasoning goes to some very sick places very
         | quickly. A more reasonable version of this is "it's crazy to
         | think that anyone could _be put in a position to_ etc etc ".
         | I.e. we live in a big complicated world - if an individual
         | drops the production table, almost certainly something else was
         | wrong besides that person making a mistake.
        
           | NoahZuniga wrote:
           | I don't think the parent comment is saying that this
           | passenger is at fault, just that there is a lot of potential
           | for abuse.
        
             | shawabawa3 wrote:
             | "upgrade me to business class or I won't remember where my
             | phone is as we'll have to go back"
        
         | franktankbank wrote:
         | Wipe out 1 million dollars from the economy?? Au contraire mon
         | frere they just added 1 million dollars to GDP!
        
         | yaris wrote:
         | While the point is valid, I can't help but think about "A
         | hacker in a restaurant", english version found here:
         | https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hacker-restaurant-alexander-s...
         | (it's not mine and I'm in no way affiliated with the
         | owner/author of the page).
        
         | _ph_ wrote:
         | It is the only sane way to handle things like this and I think
         | it is the reason air travel is so secure that most regulations
         | and practices make sense.
         | 
         | You want the crew to be fully in charge of security. If they
         | think the plane should turn around, it turns around. In the
         | long term it is way cheaper to eat those costs then to start a
         | whole industry about litigation for events like these, probably
         | causing everyone to buy additional insurance etc.
         | 
         | You definitely don't want to give any incentive to anyone to
         | "overlook" possible problems.
        
       | OutOfHere wrote:
       | I strongly advise buying and always using a "phone lanyard" to
       | tether your phone to your belt loop. A well-working example is
       | ASIN B07ZSDFY85. With it, your phone won't get lost or get left
       | behind. Even if the risk of losing the phone is just once in ten
       | years, it still is worth it. If it drops with the tether, you can
       | just lift the tether cable to get it back. If you're tall, you
       | may need two, or something longer. Note that the tether works
       | only with a compatible phone case to hold it in place.
        
         | LeifCarrotson wrote:
         | Bluetooth from a smartwatch or BLE locator beacon in your
         | keys/wallet/bag works almost as well and is way more
         | convenient.
        
           | OutOfHere wrote:
           | I have a smartwatch, but it won't help at all when leaving
           | your phone in an Uber/Lyft which takes off. You will then be
           | left with the awareness of having just left your phone rather
           | than actually your phone.
        
             | bookofjoe wrote:
             | From Apple Support -- https://support.apple.com/en-
             | us/101593
             | 
             | >With your Apple Watch, in the Find My app, or on the web
             | at iCloud.com/find, you can play a sound to help find your
             | device if it's nearby or find it on a map.
        
               | OutOfHere wrote:
               | It can be tracked but that is entirely different from not
               | losing it in the first place, which is what a lanyard
               | does. Imagine leaving it on a public bus... good luck
               | ever getting that back.
        
               | macintux wrote:
               | When I left my wallet on Boston's subway, I was able to
               | retrieve it the next day with its contents intact. I was
               | pleasantly shocked.
        
         | tiahura wrote:
         | I recommend a good pocket protector to accompany the phone
         | lanyard. Here's a nice leather option. B08S6KMCGM
        
           | girvo wrote:
           | Well _I_ thought your reply was both amusing and technically
           | relevant...
           | 
           | I'd never be caught dead with that lanyard haha so it's
           | amusing to see it recommended, though I don't blame others
           | for using one!
           | 
           | I've not considered it, but with the rise of phones and e-ink
           | and so on, I assume pocket protectors are even less common
           | than they were prior?
        
         | _qua wrote:
         | I would lose 5 phones before I wore that embarrassing thing
        
         | diffxx wrote:
         | Here's my countervailing advice for keeping your phone safe:
         | don't use a case or any protection at all. This trains you to
         | take care of it.
        
           | Spooky23 wrote:
           | That doesn't work for current gen iPhones, whose screens you
           | can scratch seemingly with pocket mint.
        
             | Dylan16807 wrote:
             | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZzZatxb9KQ
             | 
             |  _One thing I do appreciate about Apple is their new
             | ceramic shield material on the 6.1-inch screen. It actually
             | does appear to be more scratch-resistant than other
             | smartphones. Working our way up through the Mohs scale of
             | hardness, usually I can feel the level-6 pick grab the
             | glass and start scratching, but with this latest generation
             | of ceramic shield, it still feels pretty smooth--even with
             | that sharp level-6 pick. The marks are still appearing, but
             | they 're so faint and subtle that I almost can't say
             | "scratches at a level-6, with deeper grooves at a level-7"
             | anymore. Almost._
             | 
             | You can get more scratch-resistant screen protectors, but
             | as far as the builtin glass I don't think Apple is falling
             | behind anywhere.
        
           | boomboomsubban wrote:
           | I use this method and have only broken one phone in ten years
           | because of it...
        
           | kjkjadksj wrote:
           | This little experiment lasted for about 6 weeks for me before
           | I broke front and back glass and cracked the camera lens in
           | one go on a cement floor. I'll take the $6 rubber case now
           | and save me some grief.
        
       | JoelMcCracken wrote:
       | Thank you to whoever changed the title to omit the question mark.
       | Question marks at the end of non questions drives me crazy. I've
       | tried to accept it and accustom myself to it, but I still always
       | trying to parse it multiple times
        
         | bookofjoe wrote:
         | That was me. I'm the idiot who originally added it to the
         | published headline before I realized it and removed it.
        
         | facile3232 wrote:
         | Any statement can be a question with the right tone. I actually
         | have the exact opposite stance: we expect formal questions when
         | in most cases it makes more sense to simply state something
         | with a lilting tone. But maybe it's just me?
        
       | Jhsto wrote:
       | I was on a flight where we had a fire inside of the cabin because
       | of some mobile device. What I found weird was the only piece of
       | communication being that "we are returning", around 15 minutes
       | after the plane had turned back. I was able to smell the smoke at
       | that point.
        
         | cedws wrote:
         | What airline was it?
         | 
         | I've never been to the US but seen a lot of random videos and
         | pilots in the US sound kind of unprofessional. They don't seem
         | to communicate clearly and use very casual language. For
         | instance I saw a video recently where the pilot refused a plane
         | because he "wasn't feeling it" or something.
        
           | ocdtrekkie wrote:
           | If the pilot isn't feeling the plane, I don't want to be on
           | it either, so I'm not sure that's an "unprofessional" issue.
        
           | verzali wrote:
           | No, that's a standard part of flying safety. If you are not
           | in the right mental state to fly you shouldn't, and
           | especially not if the lives of hundreds of people depend on
           | you.
        
             | cedws wrote:
             | That isn't the point I was making. Read again.
        
           | Spartan-S63 wrote:
           | In that particular instance, that pilot also mentioned there
           | were issues with engine oil pressure, IIRC, and the fuel
           | filter was scheduled to be replaced after the long haul
           | flight over water. Those concerning data points were what led
           | to him not "feeling it." That type of casual language, IMO,
           | makes it easier for people to empathize with the conclusion
           | based on hard facts.
        
             | cedws wrote:
             | Still I've never heard a pilot communicate like that. On
             | the European airlines I've flown on the pilot would
             | concisely and professionally explain the situation and then
             | make a formal apology.
        
               | burnished wrote:
               | OK, Karen
        
               | jerlam wrote:
               | This probably happens on American airlines, but it won't
               | make the news so you won't know about it unless you were
               | on the plane.
        
               | DAGdug wrote:
               | The language of the corporate meeting room in America is
               | also a lot more casual than in Europe. It has zero
               | bearing on actual professionalism (defined, " the
               | competence or skill expected of a professional") given
               | the results of American corporations (or the strong
               | safety record of US pilots). So, while I can literally
               | understand your point, I can't see why it's material to
               | anything.
        
           | Jhsto wrote:
           | It was United.
        
           | dghlsakjg wrote:
           | That video was noteworthy because it was such unusual
           | phrasing.
        
           | 6SixTy wrote:
           | The pilot in command can refuse an aircraft because of
           | unresolved mechanical or technical issues, and sometimes
           | issues that for example are fine on a clear calm day can just
           | not be in weather. Remember that the pilots themselves are
           | responsible for the safety of the aircraft and all passengers
           | for the duration of the flight, so it's up to their judgement
           | to make sure that a flight is safe.
           | 
           | But a fire on a plane is pretty much the most dangerous event
           | you can have on a flight. Especially lithium battery fires
           | since aircraft don't have the right extinguisher for them,
           | and staff are generally trained to quarantine the fire just
           | long enough so it can be taken care of on the ground.
        
             | elcritch wrote:
             | Seems like a "lithium fire box" or perhaps fireproof bag
             | capable of containing lithium fires and smothering them
             | would become standard on planes. Most personal electronics
             | are fairly small as well.
        
               | 6SixTy wrote:
               | The official training video by the FAA outlines that crew
               | should extinguish the fire with onboard equipment and
               | keep it cool with water to prevent it from thermal
               | runaway again. In one outline, FAA doesn't endorse
               | putting it in a bag or touching it any further than it
               | needs to be, and another in response to commercial "FAA
               | approved" products for lithium battery fires, does not
               | endorse nor discourage using such products.
        
         | cactacea wrote:
         | Why do you feel that is weird? Keeping the passengers informed
         | isn't really a priority in a situation like that. They told you
         | when you needed to know.
        
           | Jhsto wrote:
           | I thought that even the cabin crew did not know what's
           | burning. There's also the feeling of helplessness -- you know
           | something is wrong but you are not told that something is
           | wrong. The hysteria at the back of the plane could have been
           | alleviated by telling that the situation is under control.
           | When the plane was landing, I could see fire trucks, an
           | ambulance, and police of some sort driving in parallel to the
           | plane to rush in. I only found out about the reason from the
           | news later.
        
             | maccard wrote:
             | You are helpless, the cabin crew know what's going on but
             | aren't telling you, and the hysteria at the back of the
             | plane won't be alleviated by telling them there's a fire in
             | the cabin, you're making an emergency landing and to
             | prepare for an emergency response unit upon landing.
             | 
             | There's nothing you can do other than stay in your seat and
             | keep out of the way.
        
           | IshKebab wrote:
           | What? Keeping passengers informed is zero effort, a nice
           | thing to do, and probably a good idea. Why would you _not_
           | say  "we are returning due to a battery fire. The fire has
           | been contained but we must return because X y z" or whatever.
        
             | mschuster91 wrote:
             | > Why would you not say "we are returning due to a battery
             | fire. The fire has been contained but we must return
             | because X y z" or whatever.
             | 
             | Because as soon as you mention "fire" you'll get a bunch of
             | dumb fucks panicking themselves so hard they're going to
             | behave completely irrationally (like attempting to rip open
             | the emergency doors which IS possible at low enough
             | altitudes) - or manage to induce legitimate medical
             | problems. Heart attack for the older folks, dyspnea up to
             | actually going unconscious from hyperventilation for the
             | younger folks.
        
               | IshKebab wrote:
               | Ugh yeah that's why you tell them it's been put out.
        
               | sowbug wrote:
               | "Wait, did they just say batteries can start fires?"
        
               | mschuster91 wrote:
               | Bold of you to assume they'll continue to listen after
               | the keyword "fire". In the worst case, they'll actively
               | _doubt_ you and, worse, start doing so in a very public
               | way ( "they're just claiming the fire is out").
               | 
               | And yes this shit has happened in the past. Panicked
               | people are uncontrollable and in a critical situation,
               | priority #1 is to avoid panic to rise _at all costs_
               | because panicked people can turn a critical situation
               | into outright disaster.
        
               | perihelions wrote:
               | - _" panicking themselves so hard they're going to behave
               | completely irrationally (like attempting to rip open the
               | emergency doors which IS possible at low enough
               | altitudes)"_
               | 
               | The Denver airport fire this month was an object lesson.
               | A panicking mob apparently ignored instructions and went
               | out the wrong emergency exit door, onto the airplane
               | wing, where they stood over the flaming jet-fuel smoke
               | with no way down.
               | 
               | (The other doors had slides).
        
             | girvo wrote:
             | Because passengers panic, and that makes the job of the
             | crew harder?
        
         | y33t wrote:
         | Just curious, were they able to purge or scrub the smoke from
         | the cabin? Seems like a battery fire in a closed space like
         | that would be a lung hazard.
        
           | jerlam wrote:
           | Airliners have touted in the pandemic that planes have HEPA
           | filtration which remove 99.95+% of particles in the air,
           | which includes smoke particles.
           | 
           | Battery fires will also produce other bad stuff in the air,
           | but it's still a minor consideration compared to a fire which
           | can bring down the plane.
        
             | aeternum wrote:
             | The issue is how quickly they cycle the full cabin air
             | volume.
        
         | KineticLensman wrote:
         | > What I found weird was the only piece of communication being
         | that "we are returning"
         | 
         | Aviate, Navigate, Communicate
        
           | Dylan16807 wrote:
           | Can you elaborate on how that is relevant?
           | 
           | It's hard for me to imagine how the urgent aviation and
           | navigation involved in turning the plane around takes two
           | people 15 uninterrupted minutes, let alone the portion
           | _after_ turning around needing 15 uninterrupted minutes.
        
       | icegreentea2 wrote:
       | For a sense of scale, the FAA has been tracking battery related
       | incidents, and you can take a looksie here:
       | https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/resources/lithium_batteries/incid...
       | 
       | You can click through to see specific incident summaries. It
       | looks like a significant amount (if not majority) of events are
       | inflight on passenger flights (as opposed to on the ground,
       | tarmac, ground handling, or freight operations). There were 85
       | total incidents in 2024 (there were some 9 million passenger
       | revenue departures to give another sense of scale).
       | 
       | Lost phone is a problem because:
       | 
       | * Could be in a place that increases risk of thermal run away to
       | begin with - classic example would be caught in the seat hinge.
       | But even being stuck surrounding by cushioning could increase the
       | risk of overheating
       | 
       | * Decreased visibility. The faster you can react (ie, try to dump
       | the thing into a thermal protection bag / get it away from other
       | flammables) the better. If you read the incidents, you'll see
       | time after time the sequence "passenger notified flight
       | attendant, who then placed it in a thermal containment bag,
       | flight completed normally".
       | 
       | I could see changes to rules that will begin to prohibit storing
       | batteries in overhead compartments (which aside from the pinch
       | problem, actually has all the same risks of losing a phone). Or
       | perhaps mandatory/routine pre-emptive use of thermal containment
       | bags.
       | 
       | The airliners know there's no going back. They must accommodate
       | for batteries, so they'll seek the right balance.
        
         | lsllc wrote:
         | If you've ever had to fly with (cordless) power tools the rules
         | allow this but the batteries must be in carry on and not be in
         | the checked baggage (the tool itself must be checked!) and
         | there's a limit on the max battery size (160 Wh), although I
         | don't think there's a limit on how _many_ you can carry-on.
         | 
         | For example, with DeWalt 20V batteries, 160Wh is an 8Ah (which
         | is one of the larger sized batteries), but if you have 60V
         | FlexVolt tools (circular saw) you are probably out of luck as
         | they start around 6Ah (and @60V, 160Wh is only 2.6Ah), going up
         | to 15Ah (which would be 900Wh).
        
           | lesuorac wrote:
           | > although I don't think there's a limit on how many you can
           | carry-on.
           | 
           | Correct. So long as it's for personal use.
           | 
           | > [1] Quantity limits: None for most batteries -- but
           | batteries must be for use by the passenger. Batteries carried
           | for further sale or distribution (vendor samples, etc.) are
           | prohibited. There is a limit of two spare batteries per
           | person for the larger lithium ion batteries described above
           | (101-160 watt hours per battery).
           | 
           | [1]: https://www.faa.gov/hazmat/packsafe/lithium-batteries
        
           | andrewaylett wrote:
           | I assume this is because the thermal containment bags they
           | have are only rated to a certain limit, but distinct
           | batteries hopefully won't ignite at the same time and can in
           | any case go in different bags?
        
           | johnwalkr wrote:
           | For the 60V flex volt battery, which is actually 3x 20v
           | batteries which the tool can configure in series, the
           | advertised capacity in Ah is almost certainly measured at
           | 20V. And 20V is also a marketing term, with nominal voltage
           | being around 18.5. So the 6Ah battery is probably around
           | 111Wh and the 15Ah battery is probably around 278Wh. So only
           | one of them is oversized but you should find a data sheet
           | that clearly shows capacity in Wh.
        
       | 1970-01-01 wrote:
       | Now we're losing international flights to lost phones? Sodium
       | batteries can't come soon enough.
        
         | inejge wrote:
         | I can't blame them, an in-air cabin fire is no joke. This[1]
         | happened on the ground and destroyed the plane. Another very
         | recent one[2] was in the air and thankfully extinguished. But I
         | don't see sodium batteries in portable devices any time soon:
         | too bulky for the capacity. LFP, perhaps.
         | 
         | [1] https://avherald.com/h?article=523644ed&opt=0
         | 
         | [2] https://avherald.com/h?article=525739ed&opt=0
        
       | thih9 wrote:
       | > After checks by the maintenance teams, the device was found
       | 
       | Do we know where the device was found?
        
       | smeej wrote:
       | I feel like I'm having some sort of Mandela Effect moment, but
       | maybe I'm missing something a lot more obvious?
       | 
       | I've had portable charging battery packs for at least a decade. I
       | wasn't special. They were common. But it's only in the last few
       | years that I've been hearing any concern about the batteries in
       | consumer electronic devices causing aircraft fires.
       | 
       | I remember hearing about the ones in hoverboards, and then there
       | was one version of a Samsung device that had problems, but nobody
       | generalized to " _all_ such electronic items must be in the cabin
       | with you, and if you lose track of yours, we 're turning the
       | plane around."
       | 
       | Did something maybe change about battery chemistry that I don't
       | know about? Or did the design change, such that the batteries
       | aren't protected anymore or have enough more capacity that
       | they've become dangerous?
       | 
       | I can't imagine there were actually widespread battery fires for
       | as long as I remember never having heard not to put a battery in
       | checked luggage, so what else changed such that this is such a
       | major issue now when it wasn't before?
        
         | aoanevdus wrote:
         | https://apnews.com/article/russia-poland-germany-sabotage-ca...
         | 
         | November 5, 2024
         | 
         | > WARSAW, Poland (AP) -- Western security officials suspect
         | Russian intelligence was behind a plot to put incendiary
         | devices in packages on cargo planes headed to North America,
         | including one that caught fire at a courier hub in Germany and
         | another that ignited in a warehouse in England.
         | 
         | > Poland said last month that it has arrested four people
         | suspected to be linked to a foreign intelligence operation that
         | carried out sabotage and is searching for two others.
         | Lithuania's prosecutor general Nida Grunskiene said Tuesday
         | there were an unspecified number of people detained in several
         | countries, offering no elaboration.
         | 
         | People have been sending explodey batteries by air freight. In
         | that context, requiring batteries on a plane to be in the cabin
         | where they can be located, accompanied by the owner of the
         | battery could be a good deterrent.
        
         | op00to wrote:
         | My wild ass guess: prices dropped, causing battery packs to get
         | bigger and increase availability to people who may not
         | understand or care about the risk. Additionally, with lower
         | base cost of lithium ion batteries, you get more cheap crap
         | that is not engineered well.
        
         | muststopmyths wrote:
         | > never having heard not to put a battery in checked luggage
         | 
         | Maybe not conventional batteries, but you've been disallowed
         | from putting lithium batteries in checked luggage for at least
         | 16 years. I remember being dragged into the bowels of an
         | airport by security to open my checked bag because I'd
         | forgotten a device in it. That was in 2009.
         | 
         | When you check in bags they ask you to make sure there aren't
         | any rechargeable devices or battery packs in them and this has
         | also been going on for a long time.
        
           | sroussey wrote:
           | I still send my AirTags in checked luggage. But they are
           | small!
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | Checked baggage is actually one of the better use cases for
             | AirTags.
        
             | josephg wrote:
             | AirTags also don't use rechargeable lithium batteries.
        
               | LoganDark wrote:
               | Aren't non-rechargeable batteries still at least a little
               | dangerous, though?
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | Yeah, I've been aware of this for ages. That said I'm sure
           | lithium batteries in checked luggage are super-common in
           | things like electric razors and tooth brushes and a ton of
           | other things we never think about.
           | 
           | It's like airplane mode. How many cellphones on a given
           | flight are actually in airplane mode?
        
             | lxgr wrote:
             | A phone not in airplane mode and a high capacity lithium
             | battery are not comparable at all.
             | 
             | Airplane mode is largely pseudoscience/an abundance of
             | caution/solving a different problem than a safety one.
             | There's approximately zero chance of a phone interfering
             | with avionics, especially modern ones, with their very low
             | transmission power.
             | 
             | Supposedly the real reason has always been that mobile
             | network operators don't like the interference high-altitude
             | phones can cause: They're in view of potentially many base
             | stations, some of which might be using the same frequency
             | (which is possible since far-away regular-altitude phones
             | are below the radio horizon and therefore not an issue).
             | 
             | Some evidence for this theory: The "mobile phone ban" is an
             | FCC regulation, not an FAA one, and many (non-US) airlines
             | have been offering on-board microcells for decades without
             | any issues.
        
               | I_dream_of_Gen1 wrote:
               | "the real reason has always been that mobile network
               | operators don't like the interference high-altitude
               | phones can cause: They're in view of potentially many
               | base stations". This makes zero sense: the aircraft is on
               | the ground and not moving when the ban is put in place.
               | The ban is removed at altitude, when, you say, that the
               | phones are potentially 'in view' of many 'cell towers'
               | (not base stations). In fact, the plane is essentially a
               | Faraday cage at altitude, and a phone has almost zero
               | chance of connecting to a tower, even shoved into a
               | window pocket.
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | > The ban is removed at altitude
               | 
               | Not in the US, where it applies throughout the flight.
               | 
               | And at least in Europe, the ban is due to the risk of
               | distraction/disorientation in case of an emergency, in my
               | experience.
               | 
               | > the plane is essentially a Faraday cage at altitude,
               | and a phone has almost zero chance of connecting to a
               | tower
               | 
               | Counterpoint: I have a whole collection of "welcome to
               | <place>, your roaming charges will be <exorbitant>" text
               | messages on my phone from countries I've only ever
               | overflown at 30k feet.
               | 
               | This is from flights that do permit in-flight phone
               | usage, but I believe my network has no roaming agreement
               | with the microcell operator, so it keeps scanning and
               | sometimes catches a bidirectional link to some long-range
               | tower. (They're specifically optimized for that in the
               | North Sea and Atlantic for fishing boats, as far as I
               | know, so for regular modern towers it's probably less
               | likely, but that separation hasn't always existed.)
        
             | Reason077 wrote:
             | Small Li-ion batteries installed in a device are allowed in
             | check luggage.
             | 
             | Loose/spare Li-ion batteries that are not installed in a
             | device, and large batteries over 100-160 Wh are banned in
             | checked luggage.
        
               | ghaff wrote:
               | It's unclear to me what the official requirements are.
               | For example this is from the TSA's site:
               | 
               | "Devices containing lithium metal or lithium ion
               | batteries should be carried in carry-on baggage. Most
               | other consumer electronic devices containing batteries
               | are allowed in carry-on and checked baggage."
               | 
               | Taken literally, this is of course widely ignored. There
               | are also various requirements around spare batteries that
               | do include capacity limits.
        
           | therein wrote:
           | > When you check in bags they ask you to make sure there
           | aren't any rechargeable devices or battery packs in them and
           | this has also been going on for a long time.
           | 
           | Literally never once have I been asked that and I flew
           | internationally 6 times a year for more than 5 years.
           | 
           | The only thing I can think of is maybe you look like the kind
           | of person that would have rechargeable devices and battery
           | packs in his luggage? :)
        
             | grepfru_it wrote:
             | Before you accept your plane tickets you get asked question
             | about illegal hazards you are flying with. Lithium
             | batteries are clearly noted. Maybe you are just skipping
             | that notice because you assume you are not a hazard? :)
             | 
             | This definitely happens stateside. Usually during check-in
        
             | TrainedMonkey wrote:
             | I see a warning about rechargeable batteries in checked in
             | luggage almost every time I check into a flight. I wonder
             | what explains our difference of experiences. Maybe it's the
             | fact that I mostly do electronic checkins vs just showing
             | up at luggage drop off.
        
               | girvo wrote:
               | Luggage drop-off asks the same question, here in
               | Australia anyway
        
             | muststopmyths wrote:
             | I do get pulled aside for "enhanced screening" consistently
             | while transiting Europe :-)
             | 
             | I'm sure you didn't actually mean it that way though :-)
             | 
             | A sibling comment made me recheck the rules and it does
             | seem like phones and other small rechargeable devices are
             | allowed in checked baggage.
             | 
             | Maybe I've been unconsciously extending "power banks and
             | rechargeable batteries" to also mean device when
             | questioned.
             | 
             | Except that one time in Latin America where they would only
             | let me put my ultra-compact camera in checked baggage if I
             | took out the batteries.
        
           | Reason077 wrote:
           | > _"you 've been disallowed from putting lithium batteries in
           | checked luggage for at least 16 years."_
           | 
           | This rule only applies to loose (spare) Li-ion batteries, not
           | batteries which are installed in a device.
           | 
           | Batteries over 160 Wh (in some cases, 100 Wh) are banned
           | whether they're in a device or not, but that's far bigger
           | than any phone battery: an iPhone 16 Pro Max battery is about
           | 16 Wh, and typical laptop batteries are around 60 Wh.
           | 
           | IATA Li-ion battery fact sheet: https://www.iata.org/en/iata-
           | repository/pressroom/fact-sheet...
        
             | SllX wrote:
             | Notably the 16" MacBook Pro (every model since 2019) goes
             | right up to the 100 Wh limit.
        
             | numpad0 wrote:
             | (100Wh / 3.7V ~= 27000 mAh, 160Wh / 3.7V ~= 43000 mAh. Wh
             | represents theoretical total energy, used as a normalized
             | comparison, and Ah is used to practically determine max
             | safe charge/discharge rates)
        
         | Spooky23 wrote:
         | Devices are smaller and portable batteries are treated roughly.
         | Also, many devices have batteries with custom-ish shapes that
         | may be better or worse than standardized designs that were
         | popular before devices get thinner.
         | 
         | The other thing is that consumers won't be aware of risks for
         | semi-disposable batteries. I found out a few days ago that a
         | high capacity Anker battery that I own was recalled last year.
         | Would such a thing even happen for a random battery sold at
         | CVS?
         | 
         | I was in a leadership role for an org with about 95k laptops.
         | We had, on average 4-6 significant battery incidents with an
         | ignition per year. Anywhere from 30-250 reported battery
         | swelling events annually. It's enough that we provided kits for
         | safe storage of at risk batteries to every field office.
         | 
         | Now that's a pretty low risk of an incident, but in an airline
         | environment the impact of that risk is very high.
        
         | renewiltord wrote:
         | It's just that when something hits a process there's a massive
         | step change as everyone normalizes processes around it. Until
         | that moment, rare events are all that you see.
        
         | rsynnott wrote:
         | > I can't imagine there were actually widespread battery fires
         | for as long as I remember never having heard not to put a
         | battery in checked luggage
         | 
         | This was pretty much the initiating incident, 15 years ago now:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UPS_Airlines_Flight_6
        
         | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
         | _> one version of a Samsung device that had problems_
         | 
         | The best GTA mod: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IVk8PsSgEI
        
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