[HN Gopher] Digital Echoes and Unquiet Minds
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Digital Echoes and Unquiet Minds
        
       Author : delaugust
       Score  : 159 points
       Date   : 2025-03-28 20:29 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.chrbutler.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.chrbutler.com)
        
       | gchamonlive wrote:
       | Byung-Chul Han in burnout society introduces the concept of
       | hyperattention, which is the kind of attention that seems
       | efficient at first, because it gives the impression of enabling
       | you to multitask, but in reality it robs you from any deep and
       | meaningful connection to anything around you.
       | 
       | That's is pretty much what happens with anything tech nowadays.
       | Because we see technology as a pure feat of rationality where in
       | fact what we consume are nothing more than cultural artifacts,
       | which will invariably reflect the fundamental problems of the
       | society in which these artifacts are forged. In our case, in the
       | Burnout Society, it's potentializing hyperattention.
        
         | l33tbro wrote:
         | Is he really saying anything new here with this concept? I've
         | read a few of his books, and I can't think of one original or
         | incisive idea or framework that is genuinely interesting or
         | provocative. Eg, he talks about us today being aspirational
         | subjects in a neoliberal world. I do agree, but this is not
         | exactly illuminating .
         | 
         | I don't mean to dump on him, but he's mentioned so often now
         | when subjects like this are brought up.
        
           | gchamonlive wrote:
           | Maybe he's just not for you. This is actually really unfair
           | to anyone writing philosophy these days. That the dude has to
           | revolutionize the way we think with some deep and original
           | insight otherwise his work is worthless. Is that really the
           | only value taken from philosophy? How about hermeneutics or
           | social communication? I believe Han excels in the latter and
           | is bringing more and more thinkers from different fields to
           | think about the fundamental problems of society, people with
           | technical and scientific backgrounds that would otherwise not
           | join the debate and help design a better society.
        
             | l33tbro wrote:
             | It's a fair question. I'm not sure that I need to have my
             | mind blown. There's certainly philosophy I read where
             | somebody will be writing broadly about a school of thought
             | or a niche aspect. I think what I find dull about Byung-
             | Chul Han is that he writes with the affect of gusto, but
             | there is no insightful pay-off to match. There's nothing to
             | grab on to, at least for me.
        
               | popalchemist wrote:
               | IMO this means that your internal "algorithm" is over-
               | trained for novelty.
               | 
               | The truth, once discovered, ceases to be new. Does that
               | mean the truth is not worth anything after an initial
               | moment of discovery? Or (this is rhetorical, obviously),
               | is it possible that the things that our mind tells us are
               | worth pursuing/engaging and those things that are
               | ACTUALLY worth pursuing/engaging are not always (or even
               | OFTEN) commensurate?
        
               | 9dev wrote:
               | The way I see it, engagement with concepts that you have
               | fully understood is meaningless in that you'll only
               | marvel at your ability to understand things, rather then
               | come up with a new insight from the engagement.
               | 
               | But most of the time, we don't actually fully understand
               | things, and intimately reflecting on something will often
               | yield new facets, insights you didn't have before, and
               | deepen your understanding.
        
               | l33tbro wrote:
               | Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough. I read all kinds
               | of philosophy (time permitting!) and it certainly doesn't
               | have to be novel. However, when a philosopher adopts a
               | rhetorical tone, I expect there to be some kind of
               | catalyzing payload to justify it. Is that not reasonable?
               | 
               | I'd say truth is always being either discovered and
               | recovered, and there's usually not too much difference.
               | There's rarely anything new under the sun.
        
               | facile3232 wrote:
               | You can just use simple, gut-level curiosity to justify
               | this. It's directly satisfying to check out things that
               | look interesting. No rationality or neuroticism about
               | truth necessary. I don't know why you're making new
               | problems to torture yourself with.
        
             | TimorousBestie wrote:
             | > I believe Han excels in the latter and is bringing more
             | and more thinkers from different fields to think about the
             | fundamental problems of society, people with technical and
             | scientific backgrounds that would otherwise not join the
             | debate and help design a better society.
             | 
             | He had one hit book fifteen years ago and now exists
             | primarily as a meme. One doesn't really see people deeply
             | engaging with his arguments; they tend to agree that
             | whatever the object of the new book is "a problem" and fill
             | in the details with their own ideology.
             | 
             | Or maybe I'm wrong! I'd be interested in a link to someone
             | actually taking him seriously, whether within or without
             | philosophy.
        
               | l33tbro wrote:
               | I think he's taken pretty seriously. He was tenured at
               | UdK for a while, which is a very prestigious European
               | university. But somehow he has pushed Chomsky off the
               | mantle to become the poster-boy for the criticism of
               | neoliberalism. This is really not helping him shed the
               | meme of being some kind of K-pop philosopher.
        
               | TimorousBestie wrote:
               | By "taking him seriously" I meant "engages with his
               | ideas/texts/critiques deeply, on more than a surface
               | level" which is different than "acknowledges him as a
               | competent, popular, professional philosopher."
        
               | -__---____-ZXyw wrote:
               | Geez, how did I miss this. I must be underexposed to
               | whatever medium this is happening on.
               | 
               | On which platform is Han considered to be Chomsky 2.0?
               | Any links to this, or to other "hip" critiques of
               | neoliberalism, from him or others? Memes welcome.
        
               | gchamonlive wrote:
               | Why do you need a proxy? Can't you just go read his
               | materials and see for yourself if you should take him
               | serious or not? Do the work if you are really that
               | interested, I think you won't be disappointed.
        
           | imska wrote:
           | If his notion of psychopolitics (as opposed to Foucault's
           | still dominant notion of biopolitics) is nothing new, than
           | what do you consider new? I also remember what he wrote about
           | AI and I have not heard anyone else bring a phenomenological
           | argument forward against the "AI can think" hype.
        
           | prisenco wrote:
           | Burnout Society came out back in 2010 so maybe it's a
           | _Seinfeld Isn 't Funny_ situation.
        
         | -__---____-ZXyw wrote:
         | I (somehow) hadn't came across this fellow. Thanks for
         | mentioning it. In spite of the dismissive nature some of your
         | repliers, I think he looks very interesting, and will be
         | investigating.
         | 
         | For anyone else who wants to read a bit about the man, I found
         | this very provocative:
         | 
         | https://english.elpais.com/culture/2023-10-08/byung-chul-han...
        
       | tines wrote:
       | > The "digital echo" is more than just the awareness of this; it
       | is the cognitive burden of knowing that our actions generate data
       | elsewhere.
       | 
       | I don't really feel any burden of this myself, I don't feel
       | weighed down by the data generated by my actions. If someone else
       | wants to clutter up their database with some useless info, that's
       | on them. I mainly feel the "direct" burden of distraction.
        
         | chuckadams wrote:
         | Just came from a thread where people are discussing Foucault's
         | literal panopticon (Bentham really but Foucault popularized it)
         | and it seems relevant here. Just knowing that someone is
         | watching changes how you behave.
        
           | ta8645 wrote:
           | But that is not always a bad thing, and it might not change
           | how people behave _enough_.
           | 
           | This one minute Youtube short, gives an example of a guy
           | dancing, without regard to being watched. And how a large
           | internet crowd reacted to him being shamed by others at the
           | dance.
           | 
           | https://www.youtube.com/shorts/n2rtYzzSgL0
           | 
           | I think we tend to focus on the negative effects of constant
           | surveillance, without giving a nod to the positive once in a
           | while.
        
           | tines wrote:
           | I guess that's what I'm saying: I don't feel like I'm being
           | watched. I don't feel as though some website recording my
           | clicks is burdensome to me. I leave them to their little
           | games and microoptimizations, and I don't take their bait---I
           | have much more important things going on.
        
             | saint_fiasco wrote:
             | Have you ever accidentally clicked on a YouTube video and
             | then had your recommended videos turn into pure garbage for
             | a little while?
             | 
             | It doesn't have to be a high stakes situation, sometimes
             | small annoyances can add up
        
             | -__---____-ZXyw wrote:
             | If someone grows up in some panopticon-like structure from
             | birth, they by definition cannot feel like they're being
             | watched - to even register the fact of being watched, one
             | must know the feeling of not being watched.
             | 
             | I don't mean that in any abstract or airy-fair way either,
             | just matter-of-factly. It's a major cultural change. Kids
             | often have no lived experience of privacy - privacy
             | sometimes simply means social non-existence for them, and
             | is thus deemed a non-option.
             | 
             | It's playing out in many areas now, as we've lots of people
             | who lived before the internet, and at the same time, loads
             | of human beings who _only_ know a world of constant
             | surveillance, a world of _views = value_ , a world of
             | constantly caressing your phone, pawing at it at every
             | available opportunity. A world of quiet buses, people
             | getting dressed up for their phone and pretending to go on
             | a night out but never leaving their bedroom, other people
             | at home in their bedroom on their phones liking that
             | "story", etc etc.
        
               | tines wrote:
               | I didn't grow up in the internet age so your point falls
               | flat a bit.
        
               | handfuloflight wrote:
               | It does seem you _grew into_ it?
        
           | hn_acc1 wrote:
           | Not even the fact that someONE is watching in the moment. I'm
           | 1/8E9 - there's too much concurrent data from all of us
           | "ants" for anyone to observe for me to care too much.
           | 
           | It's the fact that online my data isn't ephemeral and someone
           | COULD watch in the future, if they care - or deploy someTHING
           | to do their watching for them - and I'm unsure of what will
           | be cared about by "the powers that be" in the future. I'm
           | sure someone could dig up my embarrassing ideas about music
           | and religion from 30 years ago on usenet. But people probably
           | don't care enough, and that data may or may not still be
           | available. And there wasn't a ton of political discussion -
           | and certainly nothing about (now) current politicians.
           | 
           | But right now, if I say "A sucks", it's probably saved online
           | forever, and depending on where I say it, it's easily
           | available to LLM-derived bots. Including to those currently
           | tearing down civilization who might have taken a bribe from
           | "A" without my knowledge to punish anyone who dislikes them -
           | or who take a bribe from "A" in the future.
           | 
           | And "LLM agents" will be deployed to scour the 'net for such
           | sentiments, find those who they can easily connect to a real
           | identity, and possibly punish them retroactively.
           | 
           | At this point, I'm keeping my head "down" 100x more than I
           | did just 6 months ago. Heck, I worry if even this post is too
           | much and I'll regret it later.
           | 
           | I used to go online as a kid to "escape a not-so-great
           | reality" (geek/nerd, not a great athlete, not popular, etc).
           | These days, I long to "disconnect" to escape. But I'm a
           | software guy, and if I get off the "keep up with the latest
           | tech" treadmill too long, I risk losing my livelihood..
        
             | chuckadams wrote:
             | Whenever I post, I always have that Violent Femmes lyric in
             | my head: "I hope you know that this will go down on your
             | permanent record."
        
         | gchamonlive wrote:
         | I agree. It's less like treating data as something alien and
         | pathologic, and more like an extension of yourself and your
         | identity that's just harder to control and to maintain.
        
           | Aerroon wrote:
           | The problem isn't the data, it's how other people react to
           | it.
        
         | crawsome wrote:
         | This reminds me of when the news channels back in 2014 always
         | said "Harmless metadata" as damage control after the Snowden
         | leaks.
         | 
         | Compromised smart devices has been leveraged to hurt people all
         | around the world. Do you think you are immune?
         | 
         | A very low-key life would really help, but the next bored
         | hacker is waiting for the right metadata to be combined and
         | they will leverage it against you.
        
           | genewitch wrote:
           | My favorite was "hashed minutae of your biometrics"
        
         | gblargg wrote:
         | I often find myself relying on my "digital echoes" to piece
         | together something I did, and when. It's useful to make up for
         | one's lack of logging what they do.
        
       | doright wrote:
       | I think there is a more interesting point made by the essay than
       | "digital echoes," which are pretty abstract in comparison to day-
       | to-day distractions that tangibly reduces time.
       | 
       | It's that there's a notion of a device that has so many features
       | that it becomes "too useful." There is only so much time you can
       | devote to so many features. Yet it's clear, for example observing
       | the uptick in sci-fi computer interfaces in movies and such at
       | the time, that crossing a threshold of "enough features" at once
       | was useful at a certain point - having a pocket-sized Internet-
       | capable device with a small-format camera that didn't suck for
       | one thing.
       | 
       | There was also the essay posted recently that argued for a macOS
       | release focused on bugfixes and stability over the disruption of
       | new features with accompanying issues.
       | 
       | I've been wondering for a long time now, at what point will so
       | much innovation have already happened since the 90s-00s that
       | there won't be enough actually useful features to tack on to the
       | next release of X thing except ones that solve problems we didn't
       | have? Has that point already passed? I remember some iDevice
       | releases weren't as notable upgrades as their predecessors for
       | example.
       | 
       | In my opinion, if the AI revolution hadn't happened exactly when
       | it did a couple years ago, this problem of diminishing tech
       | returns would have been much more obvious than it is already. In
       | fact, I think the current LLM rampage of sorts acted as a flood
       | to fill the drought of incremental innovation that would have
       | otherwise occurred.
        
         | randmeerkat wrote:
         | > In fact, I think the current LLM rampage of sorts acted as a
         | flood to fill the drought of incremental innovation that would
         | have otherwise occurred.
         | 
         | We've been running on the remnants of research from the 50s -
         | 70s for awhile now. Businesses have slow rolled the tech as
         | long as they could, but the truth is, we're at the end of the
         | research that's been accomplished. Given that and the exodus of
         | researchers to go do things like optimize ads, I think the tech
         | landscape will be fairly flat for the foreseeable future.
         | Humans sailed for thousands of years before the steamship was
         | realized. Our level of advancement over the past 100 years has
         | been impressive, and there's a lot we can do with it, if we
         | don't wipe ourselves out, but I expect this to be humanity's
         | current limit for the foreseeable future. I believe the next
         | big breakthrough that is needed to realize a technical
         | breakthrough is a societal one. We need to value education,
         | research, and stop fighting with one another over every single
         | thing that exists. Whatever form of society that looks like,
         | will be when humanity finally breaks free of its limits.
        
           | ddq wrote:
           | >...if we don't wipe ourselves out, but I expect this to be
           | humanity's current limit for the foreseeable future. I
           | believe the next big breakthrough that is needed to realize a
           | technical breakthrough is a societal one. We need to value
           | education, research, and stop fighting with one another over
           | every single thing that exists. Whatever form of society that
           | looks like, will be when humanity finally breaks free of its
           | limits.
           | 
           | What mechanism is capable of driving such a societal paradigm
           | shift? It seems so abundantly obvious to so many rational,
           | intelligent, informed people that one is desperately needed,
           | yet it's seemingly impossible to imagine how we could
           | possibly achieve it before the current global system of
           | systems undergoes a full or partial collapse? The
           | acceleration toward cascading failure leaves little time even
           | to figure out _how_ to slow everything down, constrain the
           | powers that be, and begin to repair, let alone time enough to
           | actually make it happen. From what I 've observed, the
           | Cassandras warning of the clear dangers of our trajectory
           | have mostly resigned themselves to hoping they survive
           | whatever cataclysm first befalls us and rebuild afterward.
           | This seems ill-advised when the accelerationist elites hope
           | for the same thing and are planning and preparing far more
           | insidiously.
           | 
           | I feel like we're living in an era of mass derealization. As
           | consensus reality crumbles into post-truth, we collectively
           | disregard the sheer unfathomable risk we are taking by, on a
           | planetary and historical level, moving fast and breaking
           | things in prod with no version control. There is no planet B.
        
             | randmeerkat wrote:
             | > What mechanism is capable of driving such a societal
             | paradigm shift?
             | 
             | I don't know, if we had experienced it, we wouldn't be in
             | this conundrum...
        
               | upheaval wrote:
               | In the past, it was belief. Belief in there being more to
               | this world.
               | 
               | In the future, it will be the same. Cultures cycle.
               | 
               | Our magic bullet this time around is AI. The possibility
               | for it to create a unifying belief system that's like an
               | infinite venn diagram of all the best parts of past,
               | present, and future religions - and people are free to
               | pick and choose.
               | 
               | Point is people need their spirits back
        
         | nehal3m wrote:
         | >I've been wondering for a long time now, at what point will so
         | much innovation have already happened since the 90s-00s that
         | there won't be enough actually useful features to tack on to
         | the next release of X thing except ones that solve problems we
         | didn't have?
         | 
         | I think we've passed that point a while ago. 4K is a smidgen
         | beyond what most eyes can resolve, the smartphone has not seen
         | the revolutions the early years did for a long time (since
         | iPhone X I guess?), VR did not bring the Metaverse, NFT's
         | flopped. I suppose the cloud was a shift in how we do things
         | though.
         | 
         | Before I read your last paragraph I thought you were going to
         | comment on how AI was not the revolution that was promised.
         | There's some use cases and it's amazing that the tech works as
         | well as it does, but I just don't see the mass adoption in the
         | numbers or around me at all.
         | 
         | I used to be wide-eyed and excited for tech. I was an early
         | adopter of all manner of gadgets from the Palm Pilot to the
         | iPad, but the phenomenon described in the article as well as
         | enshittification and the constant hype trains have
         | disillusioned me. I buy a phone because it does everything I
         | need to do life admin and it takes nice pictures, but like the
         | article describes I wish it wasn't a data mine and an attention
         | draining rectangle. I feel like there's more people at work
         | trying to drain my brain and my wallet than building cool tech.
         | 
         | Back when not everything was connected to everything else by
         | default all the time, the avenues for stealing my attention
         | just weren't there and selling me a gadget had to be done on
         | its merits. Maybe that's why innovation in the sense of utility
         | is down and out.
        
         | c22 wrote:
         | I think the writing's been on the wall for a while. This is why
         | so much software is taking the 'as a service' route. You simply
         | can't rely on customers buying the next version of your
         | software because any new features are de minimus.
        
       | degun wrote:
       | I wonder if this is why BlackBerry phones (best ones ever made)
       | went extinct. Because the media used to grab attention more
       | aggressively, images and short videos essentially, are better
       | experienced on a bigger screen. That's why there are no more
       | iPhone minis. It's either convenient for Big Tech to keep us
       | engaged to that type of media, or just simply user preference.
       | Guess I'll never know, but I do miss smaller phones, and
       | especially a physical keyboard.
        
         | jgust wrote:
         | I've never been able to type on a touch screen as efficiently
         | as my blackberry 9000 keyboard. RIP
        
         | crawsome wrote:
         | >That's why there are no more iPhone minis.
         | 
         | I think the minis have a 5.4" screen, meanwhile the SE has a
         | 4.7" screen. I own and prefer an SE.
         | 
         | >I do miss smaller phones, and especially a physical keyboard.
         | 
         | There's these "Clicks" but it's a rubber slip case that has an
         | extended keyboard at the bottom. They're pretty hideous.
         | 
         | I also wanted a physical keyboard, so I waited and found on
         | EBay a Moguls Mobile iPhone 6 Keyboard case, which actually fit
         | the SE after I dremeled-out the camera hole a little! My rose
         | tinted glasses were a bit strong though, because swype is
         | faster than thumb physical qwerty.
         | 
         | I fondly miss when HTC was making innovative devices, when
         | everything was up in the air. I had the G1, a mytouch4g slide,
         | A Samsung Galaxy S relay. All QWERTY slider phones and all
         | amazing experiences.
        
           | smu3l wrote:
           | The last SE had a smaller screen but the actual device was
           | larger than the last mini (13 mini). Both are discontinued
           | now, sadly.
           | 
           | The 16e is the smallest phone in the current lineup, which is
           | bigger than both.
           | 
           | I really like the 13 mini, I had been on Android since since
           | maybe iphone 4. Not sure what I'll do when my current phone
           | dies, I don't like having a big phone in my pocket.
        
         | galaxyLogic wrote:
         | > a device that has so many features that it becomes "too
         | useful."
         | 
         | I don't think it is the features, it is that too much
         | information comes into the phone and then distracts us, because
         | the senders of the information really want to you to listen to
         | them.
         | 
         | If a "feature" is useful it is good to have it available when
         | you NEED it.
         | 
         | Consider the feature "flashlight" on my phone. It's great to
         | have it when you need it.
         | 
         | Or Clock. And Alarm. And Timer. I use them all the time.
        
         | phrotoma wrote:
         | I'm convinced BB went extinct because despite having first
         | mover advantage in their game changing blackberry messenger
         | app, RIM refused to make it cross platform. Instead of becoming
         | Whatsapp, they built a moat around themselves thinking it would
         | sell more handsets but instead everyone just walked away from
         | their castle.
        
       | stevenAthompson wrote:
       | The author is largely correct, and I've personally been doing
       | something similar to him for the last few year: purchasing
       | physical media, shunning unnecessary smart gizmos that I don't
       | directly control, and otherwise trying to just be disconnected
       | for a period of time each day.
       | 
       | Each time I find some small anachronistic way to be offline a
       | little more I can feel myself relax just a bit.
       | 
       | A well lived life is not an exercise in optimization, but our
       | phones lead us to live that way. So, I think I'm done looking for
       | the best way to do things for awhile, and I'm going to focus on
       | finding the most enjoyable way to do them.
        
         | jgust wrote:
         | Have you tried putting your phone in "grayscale" mode? Works
         | wonders for turning your smartphone back into a "tool" instead
         | of a "toy".
        
           | icedchai wrote:
           | Disabling or dialing back notifications for various apps also
           | helps a bunch. I'm fine with a Slack popup notification, but
           | I don't want a sound or vibration.
        
             | BeetleB wrote:
             | On Android I used to have an app that would just kill most
             | notifications. If you got a notification, the app would put
             | its own notification on the bar, and not turn the light on
             | or ping you.
             | 
             | So even if I got 3 text messages, 2 missed calls, and other
             | random notifications, the bar would show only _one_
             | notification, and I would not get a sound /light. You'd
             | have to click on it to see the actual notifications you
             | missed.
             | 
             | You could, of course, have whitelists to let certain
             | notifications through.
             | 
             | Best. App. Ever. It's great to be able to work or do
             | whatever for hours, knowing that your phone _can 't_
             | interrupt you (unless someone calls, which they rarely do).
             | 
             | Sadly stopped working after some Android update. I'm sure
             | there are similar apps, though.
        
               | Pyrodogg wrote:
               | At least apps have to ask permissions for notifications
               | now, and you can deny it outright from the start. In
               | years prior I remember trying to hack things with Tasker
               | and extensions, but it's just not needed to nearly the
               | same degree now.
               | 
               | And if the app is good, it will categorize it's
               | notification types in a user-centric way and allow you to
               | enable only specific categories.
        
           | stevenAthompson wrote:
           | I actually did try this for awhile, and it helped a bit. I
           | tried several other methods as well, but none were really
           | effective for me.
           | 
           | However, the thing that finally did the trick for me was
           | something called "brick" (https://getbrick.app/). It's
           | basically an nfc tag, that works with a tiny app that uses
           | Apples screentime API to either allow/deny list specific apps
           | or websites. Once "bricked" you have to physically scan the
           | NFC tag device to unlock those apps/websites. I used it to
           | block the things I found detrimental, but which were too
           | difficult to completely remove from my life. Then I put the
           | device in my car.
           | 
           | Keeping it in the car makes scanning it a bit of a chore.
           | Which means I have time to stop and think about it on the way
           | to the car. This forces me to make a conscious choice, rather
           | than automatically reaching for the phone every time there's
           | a dull moment.
           | 
           | I hear there's another similar device called Unpluq that has
           | more features, and works on Android as well, but I think it
           | comes with a subscription fee. Brick is more just a "thing
           | you buy once".
        
           | layer8 wrote:
           | That doesn't do much about the "echo" problem that the
           | article is pointing out, it only affects the "direct"
           | distraction.
        
       | mentalgear wrote:
       | See also: "How Phone Use Alters the Formation of Memories and
       | Makes Time Pass Faster".
       | 
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZi0fUocGyo
        
       | tamad wrote:
       | > It turns out I don't want a phone at all, but a camera that
       | texts -- and ideally one smaller than anything on the market now.
       | I know I'm not alone, and yet this product will not be made.
       | 
       | See the Light Phone III released this week.
        
         | pmg101 wrote:
         | Thanks for the tip, I went to investigate. I like everything
         | about it except for the lack of third party messaging. I need
         | to meet my friends where they are and that is on Signal or
         | WhatsApp.
         | 
         | Maps is also non negotiable, having maps in your pocket is one
         | of the true wins of a smartphone imo, giving you freedom to
         | explore.
        
           | tamad wrote:
           | No problem. 3rd party messaging does seem like the biggest
           | need being voiced by potential users right now. It does have
           | a navigation app, by the way, but don't know details yet.
        
         | handfuloflight wrote:
         | It does less but costs the same as those devices that do more.
         | I'll go with practicing self discipline, thanks.
        
       | HellDunkel wrote:
       | I agree to a lot of this. But there is something even more
       | disturbing than the constant surveillance. With the rise of AI we
       | can no longer be sure if what we devote our attention to is an
       | artefact of culture or just some derivative that has been
       | automatically created to keep our attention up. And we ultimately
       | have to ask ourselfs what the hell are we doing here? If history
       | is removed from the artefact it becomes meaningless but how do we
       | evaluate that and what is the consequence? Live music and theatre
       | plays instead of movies and video games?
        
       | garyrob wrote:
       | > The penultimate "smartcar" drives itself.
       | 
       | Er... the second-to-last one?
        
         | c22 wrote:
         | The ultimate smart car doesn't drive, it just advises you to
         | take the bus.
        
           | genewitch wrote:
           | I bet there are billions of people no where near a bus. I'm
           | one of them.
        
       | divan wrote:
       | > It turns out I don't want a phone at all, but a camera that
       | texts -- and ideally one smaller than anything on the market now.
       | 
       | RayBan Meta glasses is quite close to it, seriously.
        
         | divan wrote:
         | Also just saw Light Phone announcement yesterday:
         | https://www.thelightphone.com
        
       | makeitdouble wrote:
       | The "digital echoes" naming is perhaps the most attracting part
       | of this piece.
       | 
       | It's interesting that there is no parallel drawn to the more
       | bland and every effects of our actions, the non digital echoes,
       | where buying corn soup at the supermarket generates data on which
       | brand sold what to who (in particular if it was paid by credit
       | card or with a loyalty number attached). Or how public service
       | attendency is usually tracked in very rough numbers, so going or
       | not to your local library has rippling effects. Or how choosing
       | to bike instead of driving at a place will impact one's town
       | urban policies etc.
       | 
       | We' be always been part of an ecosystem, and our mere presence
       | has effects on it. Caring too much about it will becomes an
       | unsurmountable source of stress, and I feel that's where kids
       | getting a natural sense of it earlier on probably avoids these
       | kind of very late waking up to reality.
        
       | ronbenton wrote:
       | A dumb phone with good camera, texting, etc seems like a good
       | product idea. Has it been done?
        
         | netsharc wrote:
         | I feel like it would suffer feature-creep.
         | 
         | Personally I'd want WhatsApp and Google Maps.
         | 
         | And if you want to deal with QR codes that redirect you to a
         | restaurant menu or ticket ordering portal (I was visiting a
         | country once, it had a long queue for visas on arrival, but it
         | also had a QR code where I could get said visa online), it
         | would need to have a web browser, well there you go, a portal
         | to distraction has been opened.
         | 
         | And then there's a need to have the payment app for the WeChat-
         | esque "Scan QR code to pay" payment system that exists where I
         | live...
        
           | ronbenton wrote:
           | Yes this is what I was thinking too. Everyone's "must have"
           | features will be different. Once we add them all, we'll be
           | looking at an iPhone.
        
             | getnormality wrote:
             | So what we really need is good parental controls. This will
             | benefit not only parents but also adults who need to parent
             | themselves sometimes.
        
               | ronbenton wrote:
               | I actually do have some websites blocked on my iphone
               | using the "block adult websites" feature
        
         | tamad wrote:
         | Good camera is relative, but Light Phone III that launched this
         | week seems to fit this bill.
        
       | keybored wrote:
       | Digital information has affordances. One of them is potential
       | infinite permanence. You put something out there and it can be
       | perfectly replicated forever. In a conversation you have the ear
       | witnesses and just multiple levels of hearsay after that. Not so
       | for data. So now you are one copy-paste from leaking your diary
       | to the Wayback Machine.[1]
       | 
       | Everyone talks about this affordance in how it makes things
       | better. People also talk about how digital information is easy to
       | leak. But few seem to talk about it as a direct and irrevocable
       | burden.
       | 
       | Smartphones can do everything. So now you have to put in a lot of
       | effort for it to do less.
       | 
       | For smartphones though it is less inherent. You can make software
       | that limits it so that a million people don't have to go through
       | the same procedure. We could make a real concerted effort towards
       | that, as a society. But not right now. Because companies won't
       | make money from _less_ attention or less things bothering people
       | and whatever else. So we can't do it as a society. Because there
       | is no business model and that is what dictates what the projects
       | that ultimately impacts normal people should be taken on.[2] But
       | there will be projects though. There will be at least a dozen
       | projets on GitHub that only software enthusiasts will use.
       | 
       | We could make a better world if we put our minds to it. A better
       | world for normal people as well.
       | 
       | [1] Eight years from now some bot is going to connect this
       | sentiment I've shared here, find similar sentiments from other
       | accounts, cross-reference them with other similarities, and then
       | maybe ultimately find out who I "really am".
       | 
       | [2] Instead we can bicker about the usual anti-consumer topics.
       | They chose this. They bought the smartphones. Huh, if people
       | _really_ cared they would have bought a dumbphone. What, they
       | need a smartphone for work? To use their bank? Then they would
       | have bought a dumbphone as well for their analog (relatively
       | speaking) weekends.
        
       | nextts wrote:
       | A testiment to how broken it all is is trying to set up oncall on
       | my phone.
       | 
       | There is a tug of war whereby I want most things to be silenced
       | at night DnD. Even phone calls could be scammers and spammers
       | 
       | But I want the alert and only that alert to wake me.
       | 
       | A dumber phone in a simpler time would make this easy. Just leave
       | it on full volume and call my number!
        
         | jedimastert wrote:
         | I had this problem as well. "Luckily" for me, the Android work
         | profile on my phone seems to bypass do not disturb settings.
        
           | nextts wrote:
           | Mine does but it won't override silent mode. So I just need
           | to make sure I am not silent before going to sleep. But
           | getting this to work to that extent wasn't trivial and
           | require a phone call. An app from a different device profile
           | can't pierce it.
        
             | jedimastert wrote:
             | Also "thankfully" our on call system (Pagerduty) can be
             | configured to call you if you don't answer the notification
             | quickly enough
        
         | djoldman wrote:
         | Is this a situation where you are trying to set up a work app
         | on your personal phone? If so, does your employer offer
         | employer-owned phones?
        
       | 4b11b4 wrote:
       | I have been feeling this for some time. I think it is covered
       | tangentially here https://www.nateliason.com/blog/de-atomization-
       | is-the-secret...
       | 
       | by the term "atomization"
        
         | c54 wrote:
         | You may enjoy the book Atomized by Michel Houellebecq, he
         | coined the term in the late 90's in a similar vein of what Nate
         | is referencing in his post.
        
       | viveknathani_ wrote:
       | "interfaces that respect attention rather than constantly
       | competing for it" - beautiful!
        
       | j1elo wrote:
       | > _I hope to see operating systems truly designed around focus
       | rather than multitasking, interfaces that respect attention
       | rather than constantly competing for it_
       | 
       | I wish disabling automatic focus changes was a consistently
       | available feature. I'd want that emergent windows, pop-ups,
       | dialogs, or newly opened applications that had been loading in
       | the background, are NEVER able to steal the windows focus.
       | 
       | It's been an instinctive rejection since a child; opening an app
       | that takes some time to load, and during those seconds, keep
       | writing some text in a notepad, only to end up with half phrase
       | mistakenly written onto the program that finally loaded and stole
       | the windows focus. I've always despised that behavior, really.
       | Yeah, I'm _fast_ in my interactions with my machines.
        
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