[HN Gopher] What Killed Innovation?
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       What Killed Innovation?
        
       Author : speckx
       Score  : 72 points
       Date   : 2025-03-25 13:26 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.shirleywu.studio)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.shirleywu.studio)
        
       | Avshalom wrote:
       | Unremarked is that while those examples are visually impressive,
       | they're also unhelpful.
        
         | rqtwteye wrote:
         | Exactly. I see a lot of graphs and animations that look cool
         | but when you take a closer look, they convey not much
         | information .
        
       | findthewords wrote:
       | Low interest rates.
        
       | 0xbadcafebee wrote:
       | Innovation is never constantly increasing. It usually appears in
       | bursts, and stops around the point that humans don't need it as
       | much, or development hits a ceiling of effort. But it's always
       | slowly simmering. Usually it's research or yak-shaving that,
       | after years, suddenly appears as if out of nowhere as a useful
       | product.
       | 
       | I am hopeful that in my lifetime, the web will die. It's such an
       | insanely stupid application platform. An OS on an OS, in a
       | document reader (which, due to humans' ability to go to any
       | lengths to avoid hard work, literally all new network protocols
       | have to be built on top of).
       | 
       | You want cool visualizations? Maybe don't lock yourself into
       | using a goddamn networked document viewer. Native apps can do
       | _literally anything_. But here we are, the most advanced
       | lifeforms on the planet, trapped in a cage of our own making.
        
         | mjevans wrote:
         | In HN spirit / guidelines, I'm going to presume the best.
         | 
         | Did you mean: "the web (as an application platform) will die" /
         | once again swing back from mainframe / thin client to powerful
         | local computing platforms?
         | 
         | In the spirit of empowering the user, I too hope the average
         | user once again owns their destiny, the storage, computation,
         | and control of their data. Though I think the web as a
         | publishing media does empower that user if there are open
         | platforms that promote the ability to choose any fulfillment
         | partner they desire.
        
         | billyp-rva wrote:
         | > Native apps can do literally anything.
         | 
         | That's just as much a downside as an upside. You're putting a
         | lot of trust in a native app that you aren't putting in a
         | website.
        
           | nullpoint420 wrote:
           | What about sandboxed native apps? If the browser can do it,
           | why can't native apps do it as well?
        
           | treyd wrote:
           | We have sandboxing technology on every modern operating
           | system.
        
         | fumar wrote:
         | I am exploring an alternative browser-like platform concept
         | that would allow for near native performance. However
         | established web protocols are hard to overcome.
        
         | pphysch wrote:
         | Stagnation in viz design has pretty much nothing to do with the
         | shrinking native<->web capability gap, and the web is here to
         | stay.
        
         | feoren wrote:
         | > An OS on an OS, in a document reader
         | 
         | Versus an interpreted language executed in a runtime running on
         | a virtual thread of an OS running on top of a BIOS over a
         | glorified calculator!? Insanity! Whatever happened to good old-
         | fashioned pen and paper!?
         | 
         | There's nothing wrong with the model of delivering your
         | software as a small program to run in a sandboxed browser
         | environment. WASM, canvas, WebGL -- you can do nearly as much
         | on the web as native nowadays, with a dead-simple deployment
         | model. One of the only type of programs that's much harder to
         | make in a web application is malware. Calling a modern browser
         | a "networked document reader" is as silly as calling a modern
         | computer a calculator.
        
           | collingreen wrote:
           | The DOM seems fair to call a networked document reader.
           | You've suggested a different build target for what would have
           | been native apps - I think you and OP meet in the middle a
           | bit; you get the power of non-html app development. OP
           | laments the overhead of having to shove that into the
           | existing web model designed for documents; you appreciate the
           | sandboxing.
           | 
           | I think you have similar opinions that mostly overlap,
           | regardless of insults about statements being silly.
        
         | slt2021 wrote:
         | >>Native apps can do literally anything
         | 
         | like hack your banking account or steal your password...
        
         | ericmcer wrote:
         | The web is just a convention that gained rapid adoption so now
         | browsers dominate software. As far as conventions go, it is not
         | bad compared to some of the stuff humans have landed on. Better
         | than paving over everything so we can drive and park cars all
         | over, better than everything being single use and disposable.
         | Web has it's ups and downs but it is decent based on our track
         | record.
        
         | ryandrake wrote:
         | > I am hopeful that in my lifetime, the web will die.
         | 
         | I'd like to see the www go back to its roots as a way to share
         | and browse documents, hyperlinked together. The web _worked_
         | when it was just documents to render and click on links. It is
         | terrible as an application platform.
         | 
         | It's been 30 years since JavaScript was invented. Imagine what
         | we'd have today, if instead of making the WWW into this half-
         | assed application platform, those 30 years of collective
         | brainpower were instead spent on making a great cross-platform
         | native application development and delivery system!
        
           | scarface_74 wrote:
           | Native for Windows, Macs, Linux, iPhones and Android devices?
           | 
           | Now imagine trying to update all of those native apps across
           | a large enterprise or multiple large enterprises.
           | 
           | Since I do use multiple devices, when everything is on the
           | web, you also don't have to worry about syncing or conflict
           | resolution like you do with semi connected scenarios.
        
             | ryandrake wrote:
             | > Native for Windows, Macs, Linux, iPhones and Android
             | devices?
             | 
             | > Now imagine trying to update all of those native apps
             | across a large enterprise or multiple large enterprises.
             | 
             | With the tools we have now, it would absolutely not work.
             | In my post I was imagining a parallel alternate universe
             | where native development tools got all the brainpower and
             | innovation over the last 30 years, instead of the web tools
             | getting it.
        
               | mjevans wrote:
               | The web got it because for some _insane_ reason, websites
               | were able to convince IT departments to allow scripts to
               | run.
               | 
               | That left the barn door unlocked. Suddenly the download
               | everything every time (or hope some is at least cached)
               | environment of JavaScript / ECMAScript became the ONE
               | place a user could 'for sure' 'install' (run someone
               | else's unapproved) program.
               | 
               | -
               | 
               | Websites, _really_, should work just fine with zero
               | scripts turned on. Possibly with the exception of a short
               | list of trusted or user approved websites.
        
               | scarface_74 wrote:
               | As opposed to native apps like the parent poster is
               | proposing with no sandbox and that need to be created for
               | each platform?
        
               | bobthepanda wrote:
               | Native development's story has been, for the longest
               | time, the native way or the highway, which is precisely
               | why it failed in favor of web where everyone begrudgingly
               | supports a common feature set. No one wants to implement
               | the same feature in five different native idioms.
        
           | MaxBarraclough wrote:
           | We have JavaFX and Qt, and they're both better than ever, but
           | they don't see much use. With JavaFX you can build and
           | distribute a portable .jar file, and I think it can be used
           | with JNLP/Java Web Start for distribution if you prefer that
           | approach. With Qt, you're likely to be delivering self-
           | contained native application packages in the target
           | platform's native form.
           | 
           | (JavaFX has been carved out of the core JVM, which is
           | annoying, but if the target machine has a JVM installed that
           | bundles JavaFX, you're all set.)
        
           | sunrunner wrote:
           | The web as it was originally conceived - readable (but not
           | interactive) content with linked resources - feels a far cry
           | from the web of today, a platform for interactive
           | applications that seems to grow asymptotically towards
           | feature-parity with native applications (UI, input handling,
           | data processing, hardware access) while never quite getting
           | there, encompassing the fundamental things that make
           | 'applications' work.
           | 
           | If the modern web _did_ reach feature parity in some way the
           | real question would then be 'What makes it different?'. As
           | linked resources doesn't seem like a particularly strong
           | unique feature today the only other things I can think of are
           | the simpler cross-platform experience and the ease of
           | distribution.
           | 
           | So then the questions are 'What would make for a better
           | cross-platform development experience?' (Chromium embedded
           | framework not included) and 'How do we make app distribution
           | seamless?' Is it feasible or sensible to have users expect to
           | access every application just by visiting a named page and
           | getting the latest version blasted at their browser?
           | 
           | And I guess that's how we got Chrome OS.
        
             | bobthepanda wrote:
             | The web gained traction as a development platform because
             | for the most part, it broadly works the same on every
             | device due to the web standards, and so it's very easy to
             | develop something that works consistently on all the
             | different devices. Purists may bemoan that things no longer
             | respect the "native look and feel" but that is a feature,
             | not a bug, for the vast majority of users and developers.
             | As an example, I absolutely hate that my work email on
             | Outlook does not have the same feature set on Windows vs
             | Mac vs whatever, and even in scenarios where application
             | developers want to deliver the same features everywhere the
             | minutiae of the native development patterns make it like
             | herding cats.
             | 
             | It is basically the electrical plug of our era, in that it
             | is a means to an end, never mind if 110V 60Hz is
             | necessarily the most efficient way to deliver power in the
             | home in North America.
        
       | LikeBeans wrote:
       | MBAs and MVP (Minimum Viable Product)
        
         | officialchicken wrote:
         | No doubt due to structural tax changes that changed R&D into
         | OpEx
        
         | Zigurd wrote:
         | The question I always ask clients is "What's your hypothesis
         | for this being viable?" Many are shocked that the 'V' part
         | exists.
        
       | vinyl7 wrote:
       | Quarterly profit over long term growth
        
       | fullshark wrote:
       | The economics don't support innovative web visualizations, a
       | slight engagement boost for a day is the return on investment. If
       | you're lucky it goes viral on social media, but there's far
       | cheaper ways to accomplish that (e.g. inflammatory rhetoric).
        
       | kappasan wrote:
       | Perhaps it's just that data visualization has simply matured, and
       | the field has converged on a narrow set of designs that are
       | proven to work? The earlier, "experimental" examples given by the
       | author are indeed beautiful, but I'm not really sure all the
       | fancy animations help me grasp the underlying data.
        
       | chiffre01 wrote:
       | This basically sums it up:
       | 
       | "Some information will always be best conveyed in a
       | straightforward bar or line chart, particularly for audiences
       | that don't have time to engage deeply"
        
       | jeffreyrogers wrote:
       | When a new technology comes along no one knows what ideas are
       | good and what ideas are bad, so people try a bunch of things and
       | most of them aren't very useful and the few that are become
       | standardized. In the case of UX stuff like visualizations users
       | also learn the grammar of the technology and get used to seeing
       | things done in certain ways, which makes it harder to do things
       | differently.
       | 
       | So basically there's less innovation in data visualization
       | because we mostly figured out how to solve our data visualization
       | problems. If you look at the history of printed visualizations I
       | think you'd find a similar pattern. The only somewhat recent
       | innovation I can think of there is the violin plot, which became
       | possible due to advances in statistics that led to probability
       | distributions becoming more important.
        
         | kusokurae wrote:
         | My irrational side really laments where many parts of modern
         | life are in this process and how...standardised things have
         | become. When I look at e.g. old camera designs, they are so
         | much more exciting to see evolve, and offer so many cool
         | variations on "box with a hole and a light sensitive surface in
         | it". Seeing how they experimented and worked out different ways
         | to make an image-making machine with that requirement, I feel
         | like I'm missing out on a period of discovery and interesting
         | development that now is at a well-optimised but comparatively
         | homogenous dead end.
        
         | ARandumGuy wrote:
         | Sometimes something is a "solved" problem. There hasn't been a
         | lot of innovation in say, firearms, because we pretty much
         | figured out the best way to make a gun ~100 years ago and there
         | isn't much to improve.
         | 
         | Not everything _needs_ innovation, and trying to innovate
         | anyway just creates a solution in search of a problem.
        
           | garciasn wrote:
           | They said the same thing about hash tables. Innovation from a
           | single individual blew away (no pun intended) all prior
           | expectations and opened an entirely new baseline
           | understanding of this.
           | 
           | Just because we THINK we've solved the problem doesn't mean
           | coming at it from an entirely different angle and redefining
           | the entire paradigm won't pay dividends.
        
             | ARandumGuy wrote:
             | That's true enough. We don't know what we don't know, and
             | there's always the potential for some groundbreaking idea
             | to shake things up. That's why it's important to fund
             | research, even if that research doesn't have obvious
             | practical applications.
             | 
             | But this sort of innovation comes from having an actual
             | solution that makes tangible improvements. It does not come
             | from someone saying "this technology hasn't changed in
             | years, we need to find some way to innovate!" That sort of
             | thinking is how you get stuff like Hyperloop or other
             | boondoggles that suck up a lot of investments without
             | solving any problems.
        
             | dredmorbius wrote:
             | What's the history here?
        
               | garciasn wrote:
               | https://www.quantamagazine.org/undergraduate-
               | upends-a-40-yea...
        
       | damnitbuilds wrote:
       | Correct title: What Killed Innovation in the Pretty Diagram
       | field?
       | 
       | I keep seeing books with interesting titles like "The evolution
       | of clothing" and then see a subtitle like "In Wisconsin. Between
       | 1985 and 1986."
        
         | badc0ffee wrote:
         | "From jean vests to jean jackets"
        
       | praptak wrote:
       | Even a small amount of data literacy makes you aware that
       | visualizations can deceive. Pie charts make humans overestimate
       | large percentages, nonzero axis is borderline fraud, choice of
       | colors can totally warp color scales.
       | 
       | I think that in this context it is expected for data literacy to
       | make people suspicious of complex visualizations.
        
         | garciasn wrote:
         | Data literacy should come down to the data itself, not only the
         | visualization of those data. Sure pie charts are the bane of
         | Tufte's existence but even the best data visualizations of a
         | particular segment of data can be misleading due to
         | misrepresentation of the data underneath from collection to its
         | analysis.
         | 
         | People should be far more skeptical of what they are fed. Data
         | narratives are often misleading with manipulation of the data,
         | its aggregation, visualization, and especially the
         | interpretation within context. Data literacy needs to address
         | all of these, not simply the how it's visualized; that's simply
         | the final step in the entire data and information lifecycle.
         | 
         | I'm not saying "do your own research;" instead, folks should
         | think critically about what they're seeing and attempt to
         | understand what's presented and put it inside the appropriate
         | context before taking anything at face value that they're
         | shown, by any organization.
         | 
         | e: just formatting
        
         | Analemma_ wrote:
         | > nonzero axis is borderline fraud
         | 
         | This is an outrageously reductive meme that has long
         | outstripped its actual usefulness and needs to die. The axis
         | and scale should represent the useful range of values. For
         | example, if your body temperature in Fahrenheit moves more than
         | 5 degrees in either direction, you're having a medical
         | emergency, but on a graph that starts from zero, this would
         | barely be visible. Plotting body temperature from zero would
         | conceal much more than it reveals, which is the opposite of
         | what dataviz is supposed to do.
        
           | matkoniecz wrote:
           | this is a very rare case where nonzero axis is justifiable
           | 
           | nevertheless >99% of cases where I am encountering nonzero
           | axis it is misleading
           | 
           | > The axis and scale should represent the useful range of
           | values
           | 
           | this should not be confused for "range of values present in
           | data"
           | 
           | often actually useful visualization would show that value
           | barely changed - but it makes for more truthful and boring
           | news, so is avoided
        
           | teddyh wrote:
           | The only reasonable zero-value for temperature is 0K, which
           | unfortunately leads to unreadable graphs. (All other
           | temperature scales are completely arbitrary.) So for the
           | specific case of temperatures, it is in fact completely
           | reasonable to have a nonzero axis. But most graphs are not
           | temperatures.
        
         | roenxi wrote:
         | Pie charts are just as unreadable for medium and small
         | percentages. They encode values as angles. Human perception is
         | not suited to estimating angles relative to each other.
        
       | WaitWaitWha wrote:
       | I have to make presentations on my teams status to boards and
       | alike.
       | 
       | No matter how cool solution my team uses and presents, it will be
       | rejected.
       | 
       | It will be rejected, because only static reports in two forms are
       | accepted by the readers - PowerPoint slides or a PDF.
       | 
       | I would love to get away from pie charts, line, and bar graphs.
       | Alas, I am mostly stuck in this.
       | 
       | Any suggestions? I have to show present and over time things.
        
         | edflsafoiewq wrote:
         | > I would love to get away from pie charts, line, and bar
         | graphs.
         | 
         | Why?
        
       | adamnemecek wrote:
       | Jack Welch.
        
         | geye1234 wrote:
         | Great answer. One of the most destructive people of the 20th
         | Century.
        
       | hagbard_c wrote:
       | Maturation killed what is considered innovation in this article.
       | Many if not most of the visually impressive but didactically
       | confusing innovations fell by the wayside. We're currently in a
       | new wave of 'innovation' with LLM-generated summaries and
       | 'helpful' suggestions being added here there and everywhere. Most
       | of those will disappear as well once t becomes clear they do not
       | add real value or once terminal devices - browsers etc - have
       | such functionality built-in using locally executed models which
       | are trained on user preferences (which will be extremely enticing
       | targets for data harvesting so they better be well-protected
       | against intruders).
        
       | qoez wrote:
       | There was probably a core of 50 people mainly responsible for
       | these (with hundreds of thousands in awed aspiration/inspiration)
       | who've since retired or moved on to other interests or got
       | distracted by politics in the meantime after 2016, or any other
       | similar reason. It was probably Mike Bostock's departure from the
       | scene in 2017 that was the core catalyst.
        
       | janalsncm wrote:
       | Innovation in data visualization? From a purely utilitarian view,
       | the purpose of data visualization is to present data in a way
       | people can understand it. If you're constantly changing the
       | method of visualizing the same thing it's harder to do that.
       | Sometimes a bar chart is best.
       | 
       | As far as cool visualizations go (that are better served as
       | nonstandard visualizations) there are two recent ones that come
       | to mind:
       | 
       | https://youtu.be/TkwXa7Cvfr8 (Especially around 16:56)
       | 
       | https://bbycroft.net/llm
        
         | marginalia_nu wrote:
         | I'd also argue that even if all else is equal, a flashy
         | visualization is worse than a conventional one, as you
         | generally do not want to draw attention to the presentation if
         | your aim is to convey information.
        
         | borgdefenser wrote:
         | I love data visualization but it very much reminds me of shred
         | guitar playing, something I also use to very much love.
         | 
         | What non-guitar players are complaining about the lack of
         | innovation in shred guitar playing? It is just not something
         | that non-guitar players really care much about. Good shred vs
         | bad shred is all going to sound the same to the non-guitarist
         | anyway.
        
         | NooneAtAll3 wrote:
         | I thought the youtube link would be this
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwIyd_gsGWA
        
       | ralferoo wrote:
       | Just looking at that "512 paths to the white house graphic", and
       | I'd argue that it's more confusing than useful. Why is Florida at
       | the top? Consider the point where it's "Obama has 255 ways" and
       | "Romney has 1 way". What's the point of the massive arrow to
       | Florida and then taking a very specific route to success? This
       | would only make sense if there is a pre-determined order in which
       | the results must come.
       | 
       | The way it's been done in the past in the UK, for instance, is "A
       | needs X more seats to win, B needs Y more seats to win, Z more
       | seats remain". Simple, clear, and no flashy graphics required.
       | 
       | I know the situation in the US is a bit more complicated with
       | different numbers of representatives per state, but it's still
       | not especially useful to prioritise one state over another in the
       | graphic, because what's important is the relative difference
       | between the totals so far received.
       | 
       | I get that there could be some more presentation towards uncalled
       | results and the expected outcome, but it doesn't look like that
       | graph gives that, which would be far more useful than this thing
       | with arrows.
        
         | phendrenad2 wrote:
         | The US news covers the US elections from a really strange
         | angle. They act as though even as the votes are coming in, and
         | there is nothing more the candidates can do to change the
         | outcome, that they are still "looking for a path to victory"
         | and they list all of the "paths to victory" that could be
         | possible. As though we're watching them stumble through a dark
         | forest.
        
           | lxgr wrote:
           | I had the exact same thought here:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43473149
           | 
           | Really bewildering from an epistemic point of view, even if
           | it's "just a metaphor". (And do people really generally
           | understand it to be just that?)
        
         | LegionMammal978 wrote:
         | > Why is Florida at the top?
         | 
         | As you mention, the number of electors per state varies by
         | quite a bit. E.g., in the 2012 election covered by the chart,
         | Florida had 29 electors, Ohio had 18 electors, and North
         | Carolina had 15 electors, which is why those three states
         | appear at the top.
         | 
         | The main important effect is that (with only some small
         | exceptions) if a candidate wins a simple majority of the votes
         | in a state, then they receive all of that state's electors.
         | E.g., if a candidate wins 50.01% of the Florida vote, they get
         | 29 electors, but if they win 49.99% of the vote, they get 0
         | electors. See: the 2000 election, where the overall outcome
         | depended on a few hundred votes in this way.
         | 
         | This means there's a lot of focus on 'flipping' states one way
         | or the other, since their electoral votes all come in blocks.
         | What the chart is showing is that if Romney won Florida, he
         | could afford to lose a few other contested states and still win
         | the national election. But if Obama won Florida (as he in fact
         | did), then Romney would need every other state to go his way
         | (very unlikely!) if he still wanted to have a chance.
         | 
         | That is to say, Florida really was extremely important, given
         | the structure of U.S. presidential elections: it would make or
         | break a candidate's whole campaign, regardless of what happened
         | in the rest of the country. And similarly, the remaining states
         | are ordered by decreasing importance.
         | 
         | Of course, while results are being counted, you also see
         | simpler diagrams of the current situation. The classic format
         | is a map of the country with each state colored red or blue
         | depending on which way it flips. This is often accompanied by a
         | horizonal line with a red bar growing from one side, a blue bar
         | growing from the other side, and a line in the middle. But
         | people are interested in which states are more important than
         | others, which creates the imagery of 'paths to win'.
        
       | disambiguation wrote:
       | The wave of innovation starts with "ooh shiny new thing" and ends
       | with camps of made up minds. In the case of data visualization,
       | you have the no frills analyzers in one camp who only see visuals
       | as distractions at best and sleight of hand at worst, and short
       | attention span info-tainment consumers in the other camp that are
       | not only easy to please but may even find your overly elaborate
       | data driven stories annoying. What remains is a vanishingly small
       | venn diagram of data-savvy readers and practitioners.
        
       | __MatrixMan__ wrote:
       | The loss of function in favor of form. Examples include
       | needlessly complex data visualizations and vague clickbaity
       | titles.
        
       | lxgr wrote:
       | Is it just me, or is this "paths to victory" metaphor for
       | presidential elections commonly used by US media a pretty strange
       | way to "narrate" an election outcome, all things considered?
       | 
       | The outcome is effectively fixed, although unknown, once the last
       | polling stations close, so what's with all the evocations of
       | physical phenomena ("blue wall", "battleground states" etc.) when
       | everything that's still happening is a gradual discovery of a
       | completely determined outcome?
        
         | fullshark wrote:
         | It's a way to make sense of chaos and generate a narrative to
         | follow, also how millions of individual votes get reduced into
         | large scale trends (gen alpha men want X, Boomer women living
         | in suburbs want Y, etc).
         | 
         | People are invested in the outcome and want to know if things
         | are headed in the direction they desire.
        
           | damnitbuilds wrote:
           | I think the parent is trying to point out that it's not "are
           | headed", it's "were decided, over 5 hours ago".
        
       | Ragnarork wrote:
       | I'm not sure about this. Why do we constantly need new ways of
       | presenting data?
       | 
       | My main concern is that eventually it becomes easy to read and
       | interpret data, especially for people that are not used to it,
       | that are less data- or science-savvy in a way. That it's
       | accessible.
       | 
       | It's good to try to find _better_ ways to present certain cases,
       | but also it 's only needed as far as it's useful, and otherwise I
       | feel consistency is way better instead of keeping churning out
       | new ways to look at it that require an effort on the consumer
       | part (no matter how beautiful / well presented this is) to figure
       | out what they want to know out of it.
       | 
       | Innovation for the sake of usefulness is good. Innovation for the
       | sake of innovation feels... definitely not as good (although I
       | wouldn't discard it completely).
        
         | nine_k wrote:
         | Have we already achieved the absolute optimal ways to visualize
         | data? Maybe in some simple cases, yes, but not necessarily in
         | all practical cases.
         | 
         | Should new and better ways to visualize data look drastically
         | different from what we're used to? Maybe, but likely not very
         | often. Revolutionary changes are rare, and incremental
         | improvements are important.
        
       | arscan wrote:
       | Good ones are expensive to create and turns out there isn't that
       | much money in it. It wasn't clear this was the case early on when
       | HTML5 came out and really enabled these experiences. But after
       | you make a few and realize how much goes into creating them, and
       | how hard it is to extract value from them, it doesn't make that
       | much sense.
       | 
       | Also, that us election needle from 2016 really turned a lot of
       | people off of to the whole genre, I think.
        
       | yawnxyz wrote:
       | well, Mike Bostock left to create Observable, and in its latest
       | iteration Observable Plot https://observablehq.com/plot/ is
       | amazing.
       | 
       | This makes the old data viz examples from NYT accessible to the
       | rest of the population who aren't D3.js / canvas / svg whisperers
       | like Mike
        
       | jrm4 wrote:
       | In _this_ field? The answer is easy. Data, even pretty data --
       | maybe ESPECIALLY pretty data -- is not  "information," and
       | especially not "wisdom."
       | 
       | At the risk of using an odd term -- it's like -- "Data porn?"
        
       | dematz wrote:
       | From https://worksinprogress.co/issue/how-madrid-built-its-
       | metro-... contrast Madrid's train stations, copy and pasted as
       | much as possible, vs London's, where each has its own interesting
       | and complex architecture. The article claims simple, consistent
       | Madrid stations were easier to build. Idk if it's true or not,
       | but it's an appealing argument that architects are interested in
       | architectural uniqueness and complexity which adds costs.
       | 
       | Similarly, the data viz architect sort of assumes more complex
       | visualizations would be helpful if the public wasn't so phone
       | addicted and inattentive: "some data stories are just too complex
       | and nuanced to be aggregated in bar charts and line charts.
       | Surely, they'd be curious about more complex visualizations"
       | ...well where's the discussion of if visualization complexity is
       | actually good for data stories? If everyone knows how to read a
       | bar chart and a line graph, that's a point in favor of standard
       | copy and paste visualization.
       | 
       | The one case where imo fancy visualizations actually help is
       | maps. Not only is the example of facebook friendships in 2010
       | cool, a world map really is the best way to show where
       | people/connections are (ofc maybe it's just a heatmap ie
       | https://xkcd.com/1138/ idk if they divided by how many people
       | live there but still cool). So there are probably lots of stories
       | a map visualization helps tell by showing where stuff is.
       | 
       | But yeah in general I felt like the article spoke to data viz
       | only as art to wow data connoisseurs. There was no defense of why
       | complex stories getting a new data format each time conveys
       | information better than standard bar chart/line graph.
        
         | dematz wrote:
         | Part 1 of this post
         | https://www.shirleywu.studio/notebook/2025-02-client-comfort...
         | probably speaks more to why it's good to do visualizations more
         | creative than people are used to. I still get the sense of the
         | architect who has more interest in complexity than the client
         | (who's both uninterested and disinterested) though.
        
       | Joel_Mckay wrote:
       | Steve Jobs discussed "Content vs Process" years ago:
       | 
       | https://youtu.be/TRZAJY23xio?feature=shared&t=1770
       | 
       | While I didn't agree with a lot of his ideas, this one has proven
       | true over time.
       | 
       | If you meant innovation in a scientific/startup context, than the
       | reasons are as follows:
       | 
       | 1. Space: Rent seeking economies create commodities out of
       | physical locations used to build high risk apparatus. Even
       | university campus space is often under synthetic scarcity.
       | 
       | 2. Time: Proportion of bureaucratic and financial investment
       | pressure constrain creative resources actually used to solve some
       | challenge.
       | 
       | 3. Resources: Competition and entrenched manufacturing capacity
       | asymmetry. Unless one can afford to play the Patent game...
       | people will simply steal/clone your work to fragment the market
       | as quickly as possible. Thus, paradoxically degrading technology
       | markets before it may mature properly through refinement.
       | 
       | 4. Resolve: Individuals focused on racketeering and tying as a
       | business model generally case harm to the entire industry through
       | naive attempts at a monopoly.
       | 
       | 5. Respect: Smart people do not choose to be hapless, and simply
       | vote with their feet when their communities are not longer
       | symbiotic.
       | 
       | There are shelves full of technology the public won't see for
       | years, as there is little incentive to help rip off consumers
       | with Robber Baron economics. This is why "we" can't have nice
       | things... and some people are 10 years into the future. =3
        
       | nitwit005 wrote:
       | These are an innovative way to sell New York Times subscriptions,
       | but most of us aren't making charts for interactive marketing.
       | 
       | These sorts of animations are cool, but my experience has been
       | that if you have to deal with them daily, you'll want a way to
       | turn them off. People will jam a bunch of charts with
       | considerable data onto the page, and the animations will barely
       | work due to the strained performance.
        
       | mncharity wrote:
       | > So what next?
       | 
       | LLM discussion of visualizations?
       | 
       | I did guerrilla usability testing around teaching scale, which
       | included this video[1] (stop-motion animation using CO
       | molecules). _Lots_ of people asked  "What are those ripples?".
       | IBM even had a supplementary webpage addressing this (which I no
       | longer see, even on archive). People could easily ask this with
       | me standing beside them, but not so much if viewing the content
       | online. Which raised the UI question of how to encourage such.
       | 
       | With LLMs, perhaps people will be able to ask questions of a
       | visualization? _What is that? Why is that? What about ...? I don
       | 't understand ... Does this mean ...?_
       | 
       | [1] IBM's _A boy and his atom_
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSCX78-8-q0 Making of:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA4QWwaweWA
        
       | tech_ken wrote:
       | The point of data presentation is to gist the most salient
       | trends; an interactive chart where you can zoom in to the lowest
       | granularity of the data basically defeats the purpose of the plot
       | in the first place. Similarly most animation in charts doesn't
       | really add any meaningful visual data, it's just distracting. I
       | think most consumers of data journalism got pretty bored of
       | scrolling through some massive viz after only a few minutes, and
       | why would they not? People read the news to have the critical
       | points surfaced for them. They don't want to dig through the data
       | themselves (and if they do they're not going to be satisfied with
       | the prebuilt animation). These kinds of things are IMO more fun
       | and interesting to build, rather than to actually try and learn
       | something from.
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | > That was the year I realized I was experiencing scrollytelling
       | fatigue.
       | 
       | She nailed it.
       | 
       | The people who really, really have to look at graphs of numbers
       | all day have a Bloomberg terminal. The graphics are visually
       | unexciting but useful.
        
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