[HN Gopher] I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud
___________________________________________________________________
I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud
Author : HieronymusBosch
Score : 141 points
Date : 2025-03-24 17:09 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.jeffgeerling.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.jeffgeerling.com)
| mmmlinux wrote:
| Stuff like this is why I never really trust "Consumer Reports"
| reviews.
| quantified wrote:
| CR had some good vetting of stuff about 20 years ago, but has
| really missed the mark over and over recently and I would tend
| to just ignore them now. Sad, because their premise is very
| good.
| llm_nerd wrote:
| This submission made me chuckle. My last dishwasher purchase
| was a Bosch based upon Consumer Reports endless praise for the
| brand. Bought specifically the model they recommended, a big
| motivator being their "predicted reliability". It was not an
| expensive model, but it was more expensive than alternatives.
|
| Worst dishwasher I've ever owned. The control panel literally
| cracked in half in completely ordinary, if not even careful
| use. Everything about it seem designed to use the cheapest,
| smallest amount of material.
|
| It was actually the motivator for cancelling my Consumer
| Reports subscription. It really made me wonder what their
| incentives really are.
| bell-cot wrote:
| Legal Action Possibilities:
|
| - Product not as advertised, because it failed to disclose the
| need for a smart phone model supported by their app, and WiFi,
| and an internet connection, and etc.
|
| - Product is not ADA(?) compliant, because all that extra
| complexity makes using it too difficult for some disabled people.
|
| - Product is in violation of data security regulations of some US
| States, or countries, or the EU, because ...
|
| And in theory, any Cory Doctorow fan with the spare time could
| set up a web site to name & shame all the consumer products which
| had these "involuntary cloud" features, helping people avoid
| them.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| I think that's somewhat the intent of this wiki (though it's
| more focused on making things repairable, less on the IoT
| shenanigans): https://repair.wiki/w/Main_Page#gsc.tab=0
| MostlyStable wrote:
| I've been looking for a resource like that for a long time!
|
| -edit- It's currently preeeeeeeetty sparse. Hopefully it (or
| something like it) catches on in the future.
| alphan0n wrote:
| Appliance manufacturers are not required to manufacture ADA
| compliant appliances.
|
| Employers, state and local governments, businesses open to the
| public, commercial facilities, transportation providers, etc,
| are required to procure ADA compliant appliances where
| applicable.
| saaaaaam wrote:
| You don't need to use the app to operate the dishwasher. It
| works absolutely fine as a dumb dishwasher.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Competing brands offer the blocked features without any need
| for this sort of connectivity, so I'd say ''It works
| absolutely fine as a dumb dishwasher'' would not be a strong
| marketing slogan for Bosch.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| Every other dishwasher in the price range offers the same
| features hidden behind the app out of the box.
|
| This one would be fine as a 'dumb' dishwasher, but I wouldn't
| have paid $900 for a $400 dishwasher if I'd known all the
| nicer features (like Eco mode or self-cleaning) require an
| app.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Don't tell me what I need and don't need...
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| I suppose this means that in the future, when I shop for a home
| appliance, I'll have to download their manual first and scan for
| things like this.
| Avamander wrote:
| Unfortunately unavoidable unless you take the cheapest model
| and miss out on a lot of features you might otherwise like.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| My current dishwasher - purchased last year - doesn't require
| any internet connectivity for any of its features. I don't
| think it even has the option to connect.
|
| (Although it does have the shitty capacitative buttons that I
| can never tell whether I've pushed or not.)
| CharlieDigital wrote:
| I have a pretty high end LG washer/dryer combo that I
| purchased when I bought my current house (10 years old now,
| knock on wood; just been a workhorse). It has a steam cycle
| that has been used _maaaaybe_ 3 times in that period? Of
| course, it doesn 't work quite as well as just ironing...
|
| I inherited an old Maytag dishwasher with the same house that
| I never got around to replacing. It has like 5-10
| cycles...and we only ever use the 1. I have variously thought
| about replacing it because it is like car engine loud, but it
| runs a fast cycle and does a decent job and has been
| bulletproof so far.
|
| Honestly, a lot of these added features feel like weird
| gimmicks nowadays created by product and marketing teams to
| differentiate to the consumer shopping based on feature lists
| and not necessarily to actually add value.
|
| Who's making the workhorse stuff nowadays?
| Neonlicht wrote:
| I always think that if you have a very expensive dress
| you're better of bringing it to a professional dry cleaner
| service anyway.
| mmmlinux wrote:
| Sounds like you end up missing out on a lot of features
| either way.
| beardyw wrote:
| > miss out on a lot of features you might otherwise like.
|
| More like ... will never actually need.
| Spivak wrote:
| The design of dishwashers has been fundamentally the same
| since their invention. The only real differentiating feature
| is having a sanitize setting but even cheap dishwashers have
| that these days.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| Yeah... there was nothing on the product page on Lowes (it was
| after 10 pm on a busy Saturday, so I didn't have time to dig as
| deep as I would with a pre-planned purchase) and I thought the
| 500 series would be consistent from what I had read years ago.
| There was no indication that certain features (besides
| Alexa/Google Home integration, lol) would be locked behind the
| app.
| singleshot_ wrote:
| Failing to mention the material fact that the dishwasher
| barely works without the internet could qualify as consumer
| fraud round these parts. Private right of action; punitive
| damages available. (Offer varies by state).
| btbuildem wrote:
| In that near future, you should be able to use some kind of an
| AI Assistant to do this for you
| fpauser wrote:
| Just return that dumb dishwasher.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Small claims court too, for the aggravation?
| ta1243 wrote:
| What he wants is a dumb dishwasher
|
| What he has is a "smart" dishwasher
| Avamander wrote:
| And all this stuff could work directly locally, it'd even make
| alternatives possible and it'd be an immensely better experience.
| It would eliminate the latency it takes for the requests to reach
| halfway across the world and back. It would also eliminate a lot
| of the privacy and security concerns.
|
| What makes it worse is that these cloud connections also tend to
| be insecure and unreliable or both. I've seen multiple vendors
| (including Miele) make unencrypted connections to their cloud.
| (Try blocking port 80 outgoing on your firewalls.)
|
| I've also set up a bit of monitoring for a few appliance
| manufacturer's clouds - these cloud services have outages all the
| damn time. To an extent it makes sense given that nobody is
| explicitly paying for them. On the other hand it's a terrible
| omen for the longevity of such services. (I can't wait to buy an
| expired appliance manufacturer's domain.)
|
| I can't imagine a solution to this mess either besides
| legislation, like forcing some open access at least on EOL.
| ianburrell wrote:
| I'm hoping that the Matter protocol will help with local home
| automation. It is designed to work on the local network using
| IPv6 networking, with gateway between Wifi and Thread. The
| downside is that it is complicated from everybody involved in
| design.
|
| The goal is that device companies will want to get rid of cost
| of developing cloud software, and effectively outsource it to
| Apple, Google, etc.
| deadfece wrote:
| Netgear did a switcharoo on me after the fact with my Nighthawk.
| When I got it, I was able to just open the app and manage it
| locally. I don't remember what it was but the thing I was after
| definitely worked a lot better from the app. Then they updated it
| and required you to make a Netgear account to manage your local
| device. I was able to trick it into thinking I was offline for a
| while, and I found that would let me log in locally, but
| eventually that quit working too. I uninstalled the app and then
| just managed it from Firefox mobile. Their web UI wasn't remotely
| good, but it worked. Luckily I didn't have to make a ton of
| changes to it from there on out, since I was just using it as an
| AP at that point. When I moved, I got a much better AP for the
| new place.
| kulahan wrote:
| I am so done with accounts. I purposely use insecure passwords
| on sites that make me create an account just to view content. I
| don't give a shit if someone hacks into my Logitech mouse
| software account. I really don't. In fact, the pain it would
| cause the company would be very positive for me.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| > And on my GE Amana dishwasher, it started having weird power
| issues > like the controls would just not light up unless I reset
| the circuit breaker
|
| It was eerie to read that, because at ~10 years old my GE Profile
| dishwasher's logic board died and exhibited all those same
| behaviours. I followed great advice from techs but then faced the
| same issue: $400 to get another board, but why gamble?
|
| I purchased a KitchenAid (with front facing, well lit and
| described buttons) and it has been great, with no WiFi
| requirement, and I felt the Bosch models were overpriced.
| jmholla wrote:
| > When I posted on social media about this, a lot of people told
| me to return it.
|
| >
|
| > But I spent four hours installing this thing built into my
| kitchen.
|
| I sympathize with the author and what Bosch is doing here is
| ridiculous and I am fully against it.
|
| But, they're not going to care about your complaints. Returning
| it and hitting them in the pocketbook is really the only way
| consumers have to send messages that companies hear.
|
| It's a pain, but if you truly care about this, you, sadly, have
| to put in extra effort to fight back.
| kulahan wrote:
| If your audience is big enough, your complaints can end up
| hitting their pocket book.
| dawnerd wrote:
| Exactly. I'm in the market for a Dishwasher and was highly
| considering a Bosch based on all the positive reviews from CR
| and such. Now I'm not considering them at all.
| sitkack wrote:
| I look forward to Jeff inserting a "Bosch Sux" interstitial
| into his Youtube videos.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Would Bosch try to go the same route as German automakers and
| institute a fee for ongoing use of advanced features?
| ale42 wrote:
| Not sure if it will be Bosch first but I'm pretty sure someone
| will try to push subscriptions in this kind of devices... with
| only $3/month you can enable the fast cycle! And/or you'll get
| (for free this time) a screen that displays ads for detergent
| before you can start your dishwasher.
| Hackbraten wrote:
| Required reading: Unauthorized Bread by Cory Doctorow (excerpt:
| [0]; part of his book _Radicalized_ [1])
|
| [0]: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2020/01/unauthorized-
| bread-a-...
|
| [1]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicalized_%28Doctorow_book%2...
| saaaaaam wrote:
| I had this dishwasher in a rental property I was living in. The
| landlord fitted it a month or so after I moved in because the old
| dishwasher died.
|
| I was very skeptical of a WiFi connected dishwasher.
|
| Very quickly, I loved it.
|
| It's actually REALLY useful to be able to get a ping on my Apple
| watch that the dishwasher has finished.
|
| Once upon a time I had a dishwasher where the door popped open
| when it was finished. That was good too.
|
| But with the Bosch one I can do things like mute it (so it keeps
| washing but more quietly), or make custom programmes (spray
| harder on the bottom rack because I've been baking).
|
| When I moved I bought my own. And then bought a matching smart
| washer dryer.
|
| I was really really skeptical of internet connected appliances
| like this. I wouldn't return to a dumb appliance.
| nicolaslem wrote:
| I am willing to bet that these features you started relying on
| will stop working within five years.
| ryandrake wrote:
| I'd also make that but, but only at ten years. It's unlikely
| but possible that the manufacturer might actually keep the
| backend service running for 5-10 years without it failing
| from incompetence or doing a deliberate rug pull. But, I'd
| surely bet its gone in ten years.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| This highlights the need for open standards or some sort of
| government escrow cloud.
| goatlover wrote:
| Or a requirement that the devices don't need the cloud.
| It's a dishwasher. Why does it need to be online, other
| than to provide data for advertising and training models?
| You can live without being notified your dishes are done.
| cf100clunk wrote:
| Almost any washer and dryer on the market now has an audible
| signal (some adjustable for pitch and volume) when the cycle is
| done, but if you need your phone or watch to be pinged then I
| guess that's a selling point for you.
| saaaaaam wrote:
| My washer dryer lives in a utility room. And I'm pretty deaf.
| dpc_01234 wrote:
| > It's actually REALLY useful to be able to get a ping on my
| Apple watch that the dishwasher has finished.
|
| Most dishwashers will play a tune or something, and I can't see
| why would I want another digitalized distraction in my life
| instead. But TBH I can't imagine why I would want to wear
| another portable digital distraction source on my wrist, so
| maybe I'm just old fashioned.
|
| > Once upon a time I had a dishwasher where the door popped
| open when it was finished.
|
| This and everything else does not require network connectivity.
| Only notification does. Plus maybe remote start (already have
| that with a "delay" on the panel of mine), some UI for
| statistics. Gimmicks, if you ask me.
|
| Connectivity in devices would make sense for certain
| conveniences in a perfect world, where companies can be trusted
| to behave decently. In practice they will brick (on purpose or
| accident/hack), ransom it in one way or the other, demand
| sourcing consumables from them after the fact, sell your
| privacy who knows where.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| > I can't see why would I want another digitalized
| distraction in my life instead
|
| Preach. I love my smart devices, but they need to be quiet
| and dumb on outside, smart on inside. Cars where screens and
| beeps can be turned off, microwaves without beeps, washers
| without bops and gyms without forced music.
|
| I think Japan kinda gets it right tho their rice cookers have
| famously pleasant jingle once it's done cooking.
| HenryBemis wrote:
| > wear another portable digital distraction source on my
| wrist
|
| Oh but why? Everyone around me had an apple watch, I was the
| odd one out. And I said to my self "no more!!!"
|
| I bought a second-hand apple watch, I deleted all the garbage
| from it, I got a comfortable bracelet for it. Then I disabled
| Wifi/Bluetooth/Data. I got an Android phone, so connectivity
| is limited/shit anyway, but if you kill background
| processing, alerts, all transmissions, then the battery lasts
| forever!!!! (36hours tops). Now I am a cool moron like every
| other moron around me!
|
| The only sound I kept is the 'chimes' (so if I am
| 'available') I drop and do 10 push-ups. That's the ONLY
| useful thing about this watch.
| saaaaaam wrote:
| Do people who wear an Apple Watch think they are cool? I
| think that is maybe in the eye of the beholder, but if it
| makes you feel like a cool idiot that's nice, but I don't
| know anyone who got an Apple watch because it's cool. If
| you want to be cool you'd have a proper watch that every
| single other person doesn't have...
|
| For example I got mine because it has a sim in it which
| means I can leave my phone at home and walk my dogs and
| dictate voice memos or make calls while I am out.
|
| But if it makes you feel cool that's great!
| MostlyStable wrote:
| None of these features require the cloud (which was the actual
| complaint in the video, not just the wifi). All of them could
| be run locally. Unless you think it's important to get that
| notification on your wrist when you aren't home, then I still
| don't see why these features are _cloud_ features. And even
| then, _basic_ functionality like running a rinse cycle (again:
| the example from the video) shouldn 't require an app, local or
| otherwise.
|
| Yes, smart features can be a great convenience, but they
| shouldn't come at the expense of basic functionality, and they
| should only use the cloud when actually required. Very, _very_
| rarely are these smart features inherently a cloud feature.
| Exceptions being things like the stated in the video case of
| things like cameras /other home security devices.
| brailsafe wrote:
| I put up with a variety of shitty appliances because I'm a renter
| in 2025 who doesn't anticipate ever owning a home, but if I were
| in the business of outfitting my place with appliances, they sure
| as shit would not be the crap quality touch sensor microwave,
| oven, and dishwasher we currently use, or the dumbass laundry
| machines with stupid arbitrary labels for each setting. The
| fridge is fine, it has a door, that's all it needs to do. I want
| buttons.
| m463 wrote:
| renting nowadays is a nightmare if you dislike this stuff.
|
| You may be forced into:
|
| - "smart" door locks or garage
|
| - wifi connected thermostat
|
| - specific provider for building internet
|
| - various appliances: washer, dryer, fridge, stove, microwave,
| dishwasher
|
| - "package room provider" with cameras and privacy policy to
| photo/video of you, your address, your phone number (for access
| codes)
|
| - and of course the application process...
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Some things - I don't see value (yet).
|
| But others like coffee machine, lights, solar, AC, ventilation,
| robot vacuum, car charger, hot water heater, speakers are so
| obviously better when connected.
| dhosek wrote:
| I have this same dishwasher in my apartment (installed by my
| landlord). It's not just that it requires a cloud connection for
| the features, but that the setup is so janky and bug-ridden that
| I've been unable to successfully make it happen.
|
| So I just live without the extra features.
| bitwize wrote:
| All well and good until "wash dishes" is one of the features
| that require an app and cloud connection.
|
| Don't laugh. Some HP printers refuse to print, after an initial
| "free trial" of 25 pages, until you register the printer with
| the HP app.
| 4ndrewl wrote:
| I was pleasantly surprised when there was an update to my Flymo
| robot lawnmower app where they _removed_ the requirement to setup
| an account to use it. Seems most other companies are going the
| other way though.
| m463 wrote:
| I read that there used to be an activation requirement with
| smart glasses (xreal?) but they waived it if bought on amazon.
|
| I was wondering - maybe they have a deal with amazon that says
| what serial number was sold to who?
| btbuildem wrote:
| One thing I've learned when buying a full set of appliances
| couple of years ago: don't read consumer reports or reviews by
| randos on the internet -- instead, go to industry literature, and
| read reports by/for service and warranty providers. They have
| actual hard data on the types and frequency of problems across
| brands and models.
|
| But back to the main theme of the article: hell to the no was my
| initial attitude, and I went out of my way to make sure my
| appliances were as simple as possible. Still, three out of the
| five were "wifi-enabled" and promised a world of app-enhanced
| wonders. Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere
| near being set up, and I think I am lucky, all the normal,
| expected appliance features work without requiring these extras.
|
| The idea of remotely preheating my oven while I am not home still
| makes me shudder.
| odysseus wrote:
| Where can you find these service/warranty reports?
| m463 wrote:
| > Needless to say, none of these ever even got anywhere near
| being set up,
|
| I have an LG soundbar never set up, or connected to any wifi.
|
| and when my phone gets near it, it asks to connect to an
| airplay device.
|
| I think that might be a fatal flaw to even getting a wifi
| enabled device - maybe someone in the adjacent apartment can do
| the initial setup if you didn't.
|
| hopefully these devices have a physical component to initial
| setup, and are not succeptible to denial-of-service type
| attacks.
| NegatioN wrote:
| When buying a new washing machine and dryer, I actually spent
| hours extra to find models /without/ app requirements last
| summer. There were so few of them that did what I wanted, and
| also didn't require internet access that I'm worried the next
| time around there will be no more options where I can elect to
| keep them off the net. :/
| m4tthumphrey wrote:
| I purposely spend a lot of time ensuring that an appliance (such
| as dishwasher, fridge, oven etc) has no connectivity before I
| purchase. Even if it misses out on some of the "better features".
|
| Surely when all appliances go down this route it will not last
| long, purely down to the amount of breaches that will inevitably
| occur. Not to mention the backlash.
| klipklop wrote:
| I feel Jeff should have bit the bullet and just returned it. I
| know it's a waste of time, but these products have to be rejected
| at retail. Retailers will eventually get tired of the extra
| support burden and demand manufacturers drop stuff like this.
|
| They should all get hit with the open box problem from the
| returns.
| sitkack wrote:
| I agree.
|
| And Consumer Reports (which I am a "member") needs to call them
| out and hard for this.
| necovek wrote:
| While it's utterly true these features will simply get abandoned
| by the manufacturer, people seem to discount how hard (read:
| expensive) it is to develop local-first software, especially the
| one you want to just work with a mobile app that might or might
| not be on the same local network or subnet (try explaining that
| bit to your regular Bosch customer).
|
| Since we are, ultimately, such a minority, I am sure that not
| even returning the product would make the manufacturer understand
| that this is -- really -- unacceptable. The only way we can get
| this "fixed" is by mandating open APIs for local use by
| regulators, when we'll see the proliferation of custom apps.
| financetechbro wrote:
| How complicated of software does one need in a dishwasher?
| Feels like a solution looking for a problem
| AndrewDavis wrote:
| Or phrased another way, if local first software is so
| difficult why are we doing it at all when these devices
| worked BEFORE they had software.
|
| The worst washing machine I've ever had is my current one,
| and it isn't even a "smart" appliance. It has just enough
| software to be worse than my one with dials for everything.
| ReptileMan wrote:
| I see that the genius that decided that butonless car dashboards
| are a good idea, have found a new job, now that the car trend has
| reversed.
|
| For me the most egregious thing was online account to use my
| mouse.
|
| Also for dishwashers and washing machines - the eco and other
| bullshit modes are terrible. Let me waste tad more resources that
| I will gladly pay for and don't care how greasy the things that I
| throw in the dishwasher are.
| m463 wrote:
| thanks, I'll take Bosch off my replacement dishwasher list
| thombles wrote:
| I was pleasantly surprised that Yamaha flirted with this then
| backed off. My receiver is connected to the LAN since this is
| helpful for streaming, and it has a companion MusicCast app for
| controlling it on the WiFi or playing audio stored on your phone.
| No messing around with accounts, it just works. A year or two ago
| the app started regularly pestering you to register an online
| account. I, along with who knows how many other people, sent them
| an annoyed email promising that if an account ever became
| required my receiver would spend the rest of its days on OPTICAL1
| with a different smart frontend. Quietly, the in-app popups
| stopped. For now, life is good.
| pipeline_peak wrote:
| 2007 I won't connect my smartphone to your cloud
|
| 2012 I won't connect my tv to your cloud
|
| 2015 I won't connect my car to your cloud
| didgetmaster wrote:
| The only feature that would make me want to connect it to the
| cloud is if it would automatically load the dishes and then put
| them back in the cupboard when it finished cleaning them.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-03-24 23:00 UTC)