[HN Gopher] Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Dataminr tracked Gaza-related protests
        
       Author : jbegley
       Score  : 116 points
       Date   : 2025-03-17 17:25 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (theintercept.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (theintercept.com)
        
       | ryandrake wrote:
       | Headline is kind of clickbaity. They could have just as easily
       | used "LAPD Surveilled Gaza Protests Using A Tool Called
       | Dataminr". Bonus: The tool name is in the URL itself!
        
         | xmprt wrote:
         | I'd change it to "A Social Media Tool called Dataminr". On its
         | own, the name of the tool is meaningless.
        
       | rqtwteye wrote:
       | Unless there is a massive rethink of a lot of laws we are running
       | into a surveillance state worse than Orwell could have come up
       | with. "No expectation of privacy in a public space" made sense
       | when there were no databases that could record and analyze
       | everything that's going on and people didn't live half of their
       | lives on the internet. And tech is only going to accelerate the
       | ease of total surveillance.
       | 
       | I think Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every
       | 19 years. I think he had a point there. Instead of viewing the
       | "Founding Fathers" as the ultimate source of wisdom we should
       | accept that they made decisions that made sense during their time
       | but times have changed so some decisions should change.
        
         | Aurornis wrote:
         | > I think Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire
         | every 19 years. I think he had a point there. Instead of
         | viewing the "Founding Fathers" as the ultimate source of wisdom
         | we should accept that they made decisions that made sense
         | during their time but times have changed so some decisions
         | should change.
         | 
         | These ideas sound great when you imagine ideal politicians
         | doing exactly what you want.
         | 
         | They're not so appealing when you remember that on a long
         | enough timeline you'll get some political leaders who would
         | abuse such a power to no end: Rewriting the constitution to
         | give the president unchecked power or remove term limits would
         | be more likely targets than anything you're imagining working
         | in your favor.
        
           | krapp wrote:
           | ...and simply not including the 19 year expiration in the new
           | version because _why would you?_
        
         | geodel wrote:
         | Why wait for 19 years? Lets change constitution along
         | administration change in DC.
        
           | baggy_trough wrote:
           | You can! Just have to get the votes.
        
           | gs17 wrote:
           | Jefferson wanted 19 years to make it something each
           | generation gets the chance to do, based on life expectancy at
           | the time.
           | 
           | >And the half of those of 21 years and upwards living at any
           | one instant of time will be dead in 18 years 8 months, or say
           | 19 years as the nearest integral number. Then 19 years is the
           | term beyond which neither the representatives of a nation,
           | nor even the whole nation itself assembled, can validly
           | extend a debt.
           | 
           | >[...] On similar ground it may be proved that no society can
           | make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The
           | earth belongs always to the living generation. [...] The
           | constitution and the laws of their predecessors extinguished
           | then in their natural course with those who gave them being.
           | This could preserve that being till it ceased to be itself,
           | and no longer. Every constitution then, and every law,
           | naturally expires at the end of 19 years. If it be enforced
           | longer, it is an act of force, and not of right.
        
         | _bin_ wrote:
         | > Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19
         | years.
         | 
         | This is a terrible idea, actually. The risks of opening the
         | door to majorly modifying the Constitution are very, very high.
         | There are a lot of core freedoms (speech, arms, press come to
         | mind) that would likely come off worse, not better, were we to
         | do so. Which get hit hardest would depend mostly on who's in
         | office at the time, which is extra bad.
        
           | johnisgood wrote:
           | You could always make sure it could only increase and not
           | decrease privacy or what have you.
           | 
           | Similarly, the "expire every 19 years" must always be
           | included and must never be removed.
           | 
           | Gotta keep this small though, because then what's the
           | point...
        
             | krapp wrote:
             | >You could always make sure it could only increase and not
             | decrease privacy or what have you.
             | 
             | How could one "make sure" of this, and with what authority?
             | 
             | >Similarly, the "expire every 19 years" must always be
             | included and must never be removed.
             | 
             | Again, says who? The constitution has expired, and with it
             | any legal basis for such a requirement.
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | Enforcement is always an issue either way though.
               | 
               | So whoever does it today, or would do it either way in
               | our hypothetical scenario.
        
               | gs17 wrote:
               | I don't agree with the idea (and technically by
               | Jefferson's logic it should now be a much longer period,
               | which shows it would need to be more flexible), but
               | whatever process approves the new Constitution (probably
               | involving a Supreme Court-type entity) would have to
               | require these changes. Future Constitutions would both
               | have "this document expires in 19 years" and "the
               | successor of this document must include this clause, and
               | the clause 'this document expires in 19 years'", and
               | another for privacy (which would be up to whatever court
               | allows the new Constitution). Enforcement is still
               | "difficult", but that's kind of inherent in the process.
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | Thanks, you put it better than I could. :)
        
               | JumpCrisscross wrote:
               | > _future Constitutions would both have "this document
               | expires in 19 years" and "the successor of this document
               | must include this clause, and the clause 'this document
               | expires in 19 years'", and another for privacy (which
               | would be up to whatever court allows the new
               | Constitution)_
               | 
               | You haven't abolished the Constitution, then, you've just
               | forcing a recurring, streamlined amendment process. Given
               | the song and dance SCOTUS nominations have turned into,
               | I'm sceptical it would work out how you think it would.
        
         | eej71 wrote:
         | While Jefferson is an understandably venerated figure in the
         | foundation of America, he was not active in the creation of the
         | constitution. He of course wrote The Declaration of
         | Independence and while having misgivings about the strength of
         | the executive branch, he went on to become a hugely influential
         | president.
         | 
         | On the filp side, it took him a while to come around to see the
         | folly that was the then French Revolution whereas his political
         | critics - notably Adams, Washington, and the frequently
         | maligned Hamilton, were quick to keep their distance from it.
         | 
         | I like Jefferson but he sometimes seems to have an overly rosy
         | and romantic view of revolutions. Tearing down is easy.
         | Building up is very hard.
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | > _Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19
         | years. I think he had a point there_
         | 
         | You want every state to come up with its own way of determining
         | how to send delegates to a convention literally unbound by any
         | law?
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | > _Jefferson proposed to let the constitution expire every 19
         | years. I think he had a point there_
         | 
         | Good idea, wrong institution.
         | 
         | "In 1857...reformers in the New York State capital of Albany
         | created a new Metropolitan police force and abolished the
         | Municipal police, as part of their effort to rein in the...New
         | York City government" [1]. Maybe start with abolishing and
         | rebooting enforcement agencies from time to time.
         | 
         | [1]
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_New_York_City_P...
        
       | lenerdenator wrote:
       | Is this really surprising to anyone?
       | 
       | If you're out in public and using public websites to organize
       | protests, it's a given that data will be mined about that.
       | 
       | The trick is to make it unattractive for those doing the
       | enforcing to act upon their analysis of that data.
        
         | Teever wrote:
         | It is unfortunately surprising to a lot of people.
         | 
         | For what ever reason many people lack the ability to understand
         | the casual connections between things that happen online and in
         | the real world.
        
         | tdb7893 wrote:
         | I think that while not surprising it's still interesting and
         | useful to know exactly how they are doing it and what tools
         | they are using. In the US protests are a constitutionally
         | protected right and visibility into how they are monitoring and
         | reacting to them is important.
        
           | shadowgovt wrote:
           | If we remove the tech from the story and consider the old
           | "colonial village test":
           | 
           | A man walks up and down the street either shouting about, or
           | handing out flyers, that say "We should get together and
           | blockade main street in protest of the illegitimate taxes
           | Congress has passed on our whiskey." Is it legal for the cops
           | to stop him? Probably not.
           | 
           | Is it legal for the cops to move their plans around to show
           | up on main street that day? I can't see why it wouldn't be.
        
             | tptacek wrote:
             | It's more than legal for the cops to do that; it's a
             | longstanding norm. In fact, at many protests, it's
             | something you actively want to see, because counterprotests
             | can get rowdy and dangerous.
        
             | mmooss wrote:
             | > If we remove the tech from the story
             | 
             | If we remove the tech from the dropping of the atomic
             | bombs, what's the big deal?
             | 
             | You can't remove the tech; it is intrinsic to the issue.
        
         | CalChris wrote:
         | This is surprising. Why are the police monitoring
         | constitutionally protected activity?
        
           | shadowgovt wrote:
           | For the same reason they use ancestry databases to narrow the
           | field of potential serial killers to a few that can be
           | investigated through legally-admissible means.
           | 
           | There is a _vast_ gap between what the cops can do in general
           | and what holds up in court, but to a first approximation: the
           | things they aren 't allowed to do because it would taint the
           | case are in general explicitly spelled out, and if it isn't
           | spelled out it's legal to use as a stepping stone to
           | conventional, more-understood-protections police tactics.
           | Thus arresting someone for a general Twitter post is probably
           | off-limits (the incitement-to-riot or sedition laws are
           | narrowly tailored), but taking someone online who says "Hey
           | let's all get together and do a riot" seriously, and
           | allocating police resources to prepare for it as if they're
           | telling the truth about their intentions, is almost certainly
           | legal.
           | 
           | (This is _the_ battleground that the ACLU fights on in this
           | day and age).
        
           | Mountain_Skies wrote:
           | Because protests, even over mundane things like being able to
           | turn right on red, can quickly turn into something ugly.
           | Protests over issues like Gaza have a high probability of
           | turning violent, even if the protesters themselves are
           | peaceful. Keeping protests from turning into destruction is
           | one of the responsibilities of the police. The trick is for
           | them to do it in a way that doesn't favor or stifle any
           | group's ability to be seen and heard.
        
             | giraffe_lady wrote:
             | How many gaza protests have there been in the US alone in
             | the past two years and how many of them had any violence at
             | all? I wouldn't call it a "high probability."
        
               | mschuster91 wrote:
               | MANY Gaza protests in Germany escalated into violence,
               | especially against the press - the local RSF section
               | posted about this a few months ago [1], and in numbers
               | more journalists are attacked at Palestine rallies than
               | at far-right rallies [2], and that one is a legitimate
               | challenge to achieve given how many attacks against
               | journalists came from that wing.
               | 
               | No matter one's stance on I/P, the pro Gaza crowd is
               | absurdly militant.
               | 
               | [1] https://www.reporter-ohne-
               | grenzen.de/pressemitteilungen/meld...
               | 
               | [2] https://taz.de/Angriffe-auf-Journalisten/!6072709/
        
               | giraffe_lady wrote:
               | I specifically constrained it to the US because I'm aware
               | that the dynamics and tactics of these movements are
               | highly regional and I simply don't know what it's like
               | elsewhere.
               | 
               | Sometimes I get annoyed how US-centric the conversations
               | can be on here but given the subject is american police
               | using a US-made surveillance tool against protestors in
               | the united states I think it makes some amount of sense
               | this time.
               | 
               | Thanks for the info about another area though, it is
               | interesting to me.
        
               | mschuster91 wrote:
               | For what it's worth, German pigs are just as bad when it
               | comes to surveillance of (at least) Twitter during
               | protests. I myself earned a nasty letter after a live-
               | reporting from a Nazi rally a few years ago.
        
               | giraffe_lady wrote:
               | Yeah I know I've lived in three countries and the details
               | vary but the police suck shit in every one. I assume it's
               | universal.
        
               | bluescrn wrote:
               | Depends whether you see vandalism of property as a
               | violent act, or have the idiotic 'it's only property,
               | it's insured' attitude.
        
               | giraffe_lady wrote:
               | I've been to three dozen of these things and I haven't
               | even seen small-scale protest vandalism like paint on the
               | roads or fire extinguishers sprayed on cars.
               | 
               | All the violence I've seen has been from police, and one
               | case of counter-protestors throwing clods of dirt. Which
               | continued for hours since the police did not stop it and
               | the pro-palestine protestors did not escalate or even
               | fight back.
        
             | mmooss wrote:
             | > Protests over issues like Gaza have a high probability of
             | turning violent
             | 
             | What is the probability? I'm not saying it never happens,
             | but a 'high probability'? Let's see some data!
             | 
             | Maybe there's a bias based on what you see in the news -
             | they naturally cover the violent ones (and then depict them
             | as the entire protest instead of something that happened
             | off to the side that most people didn't even know
             | occurred).
        
           | tptacek wrote:
           | When the police watch you walk down the street they are also
           | monitoring constitutionally protected activity.
        
             | text0404 wrote:
             | a police officer observing you briefly with their eyes is
             | quite different than an entire police department
             | outsourcing surveillance of protected activities to a third
             | party which monitors your online activity over time.
        
           | CodeWriter23 wrote:
           | Acts in public are not protected. This, however is:
           | 
           | "The right of the people to be secure in their persons,
           | houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches
           | and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall
           | issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or
           | affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be
           | searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
        
             | stvltvs wrote:
             | Posting on a publicly accesible website is the legal
             | equivalent of standing on the street corner having a
             | conversation. A police officer doesn't need to search
             | anything because it's out in the open.
        
               | sixothree wrote:
               | Yes. But you cannot follow a person around indefinitely.
        
               | CodeWriter23 wrote:
               | That's the thing about exigency, it is temporary.
        
               | sixothree wrote:
               | Then the metaphor is broken. So find a new metaphor.
        
               | CodeWriter23 wrote:
               | Nah, that's a malfunction of your reading comprehension.
        
               | ImJamal wrote:
               | Maybe as an individual you cannot, but I don't see why a
               | group of people (cops) couldn't.
        
               | potato3732842 wrote:
               | A conversation is ephemeral unless someone specifically
               | goes out of their way to record it. That is not true by
               | default for just about anything involving a computer and
               | we all know it. Where's the line between obtuse and
               | lying?
        
               | rabidonrails wrote:
               | but in this case (to keep with the comparison) the people
               | having the conversation are recording it themselves and
               | posting it publicly.
        
           | lenerdenator wrote:
           | They do it more than you'd think. There're a ton of pictures
           | of La Cosa Nostra members walking around in Brooklyn taken by
           | FBI agents. They even made sure to get the good side of Casso
           | and Gotti.
           | 
           | Walking around and talking to each other? Constitutionally
           | protected.
        
             | mmooss wrote:
             | Very possibly those people were named subjects of active
             | investigations for crimes; the protestors are not named
             | (it's a dragnet), not subjects of investigations, and are
             | suspected of no crimes.
        
           | imperfect_light wrote:
           | Police in my city go to pretty much every protest and take
           | video and photos (with big zoom lens) from the roofs of
           | nearby buildings. It's always surprising to me that more
           | people don't notice.
        
             | bluescrn wrote:
             | The troublemakers go prepared, plain dark clothes and
             | masks.
        
         | prophesi wrote:
         | It's not surprising to me because The Intercept regularly
         | reports on the use of Dataminr by various US agencies.
         | 
         | https://kagi.com/search?q=dataminr+site%3Atheintercept.com&r...
        
       | jeffbee wrote:
       | It is not "surveillance" when the cops see your tweets.
        
         | giraffe_lady wrote:
         | Judging by the cops I see around chicago their main
         | responsibility is reading tweets actually.
        
           | bavent wrote:
           | Or eating Portillos. Or napping in their cars.
        
         | unethical_ban wrote:
         | Does surveillance need to be covert? Historically, if the
         | police are observing you or your event specifically, that's
         | surveillance.
        
           | nickff wrote:
           | I mostly agree with you, but there's a difference between
           | using a non-covert method of communication like telephone or
           | SMS, and a social media post, which is designed to be relayed
           | and amplified.
        
             | Tostino wrote:
             | What legitimate reason would the police have for monitoring
             | everything on social media that is protected by the
             | Constitution?
        
               | nickff wrote:
               | That really depends on which police you're talking about,
               | and one's views on the Constitution. State and local
               | police have fairly broad powers, and I don't know much
               | about California's laws, so I'm not in a position to
               | judge this.
        
         | tptacek wrote:
         | It technically is! The ACLU has a model ordinance called CCOPS,
         | which it encourages municipalities to pass (I got my own muni
         | to pass a version of it last year), and it includes an
         | expansive definition of "surveillance" that definitely includes
         | tools that read public posts on social media.
         | 
         | Importantly, CCOPS doesn't forbid surveillance; it simply
         | requires new instantiations of it to be approved at an open
         | board meeting. Things like Dataminr would almost certainly
         | pass.
        
           | jeffbee wrote:
           | As you say, expansive. As in: it _expands_ the definition of
           | surveillance in a way that isn 't widely accepted.
        
       | bgschulman31 wrote:
       | This seems like mostly a nothingburger. If you want to
       | communicate privately there are plenty of pieces of software that
       | allow for that.
        
         | mmooss wrote:
         | How do you communicate with the public and attract to a protest
         | people you don't already know?
        
       | delichon wrote:
       | Imagine the reverse: A police department vows not to use social
       | media to help predict where to deploy their forces to protect
       | public safety. That sounds like malpractice. A commitment to
       | civil rights doesn't restrict them from gathering real time
       | public intelligence, a.k.a. situational awareness, to do their
       | job.
        
       | bastardoperator wrote:
       | LAPD and LASD are going to bankrupt Los Angeles. They're more
       | concerned with being a paramilitary police force versus stopping
       | or preventing neighborhood crime.
        
         | tharne wrote:
         | > They're more concerned with being a paramilitary police force
         | versus stopping or preventing neighborhood crime.
         | 
         | Didn't they pull back on enforcement of quality of life crimes
         | when the previous DA stopped prosecuting criminals? You can't
         | expect the police to arrest criminals knowing full well the DA
         | is immediately going to drop or reduce charges and let them
         | loose.
        
           | MegaButts wrote:
           | > You can't expect the police to arrest criminals knowing
           | full well the DA is immediately going to drop or reduce
           | charges and let them loose.
           | 
           | You can't expect the police to do their jobs?
        
             | tharne wrote:
             | > You can't expect the police to do their jobs?
             | 
             | Imagine you're a programmer, or a chef, or a carpenter,
             | really anything. Now imagine you go to work every day, put
             | in 8-10 hours a day working hard, and at the end of each
             | day someone in a more powerful position than yourself
             | throws out, ignores, or otherwise destroys all of your work
             | for that day.
             | 
             | And this happens every day, day after day. No matter your
             | work ethic or how much you care about your job, sooner or
             | later after enough of your work is sabotaged, you're going
             | to give up.
             | 
             | So no, I do not expect the police to "do their job" as you
             | put it, when a chief prosecutor publicly and vocally
             | undermines that work each and every day. If you can't
             | understand that very fundamental human reaction, then I
             | don't know what to tell you.
        
               | MegaButts wrote:
               | Whenever you feel like not doing your job, just tell your
               | boss "I don't want to" and see how that goes for you.
               | 
               | I understand how motivation works. Sometimes doing a job
               | sucks. That's part of why you get paid to do it.
               | 
               | It sounds to me like those police officers don't want to
               | do their jobs. I'd encourage them to quit instead of
               | wasting tax dollars. Of course the real issue is they
               | want the money without the work, and the respect without
               | having to earn it.
        
               | throwaway9191aa wrote:
               | But that isn't what appears to be happening. Their "boss"
               | (the DA) is the one saying "I don't want to". When your
               | boss gives you clear incentives, like not prosecuting
               | (throwing out) portions of your work, you are going to
               | stop that work and focus on other things.
        
               | MegaButts wrote:
               | The DA is not their boss. Cops are supposed to enforce
               | laws. The DA is supposed to prosecute them. The cops are
               | just using the DA as an excuse to not do their jobs. And
               | once you normalize the cops not arresting people, now the
               | DA has an excuse for prosecuting fewer criminals - at
               | that point how do you decide who's to blame? Now you have
               | two dysfunctional organizations, each pointing the finger
               | at the other, and you've already normalized at least one
               | of them. Even if you think the cops shouldn't be
               | arresting people because of the DA, at the very least
               | this skews data on crime as police are making fewer
               | arrests independent of crime levels.
               | 
               | This is like me saying I don't want to do my job because
               | those other guys in the other department aren't going to
               | do anything with it, so I'm just not going to bother. I
               | think almost everyone can relate to lazy/incompetent
               | coworkers - does that mean you should also be
               | lazy/incompetent? The way to fight laziness is with hard
               | work, and the way to fight incompetence is with
               | competence. What you're advocating for just normalizes
               | dysfunction.
        
               | asacrowflies wrote:
               | I know if I refused to do my work or even hinted I
               | wouldn't do it...no matter if the boss destroyed it... Id
               | be fired faster than those police lighting up a suspects
               | vehicle with bullet holes.
        
               | throwaway9191aa wrote:
               | Why are these comments saying that not doing a small part
               | of a job that your boss doesn't want you to do is means
               | for dismissal?
               | 
               | If something you are doing is being thrown away, you
               | should change focus (like pulling back on quality of life
               | arrests, and focus on real crimes).
               | 
               | If your boss is destroying all your work, you're going to
               | get fired for not producing anything. I'd recommend you
               | figure out what your boss cares about.
        
               | gusgus01 wrote:
               | Not to be flippant, that sounds like working at a lot of
               | big tech companies nowadays. More conceptually, you have
               | the constant churn of in house tooling meaning what you
               | wrote last year needs to be rewritten to work with the
               | new version of X (be it the ticketing system or the new
               | process to store secrets or the new frontend framework
               | that will fix everything). And even more concretely,
               | there are teams that will fully get sunset when a new
               | product or service deprecates them or beats them to
               | market. Famously, that was how the iPhone was developed,
               | with teams competing internally in Apple.
               | https://9to5mac.com/2017/06/28/iphone-creation-click-
               | wheel-t...
        
               | shadowgovt wrote:
               | So I'm an employee at any grocery store or pre-prepared
               | meal place (fast food, Starbucks, what have you) who does
               | their job in compliance with a health code?
               | 
               | ... that could, actually, explain a little bit of the
               | work ethic (though I'm pretty sure it's "scraping along
               | the bottom of minimum wage" that explains most of it).
        
               | bastardoperator wrote:
               | Welcome to having a job/career. We've all put time and
               | effort in to projects that never materialized. Do you
               | expect every one of your ideas to be adopted and
               | implemented by others? Surely not...
               | 
               | LAPD is a bastion of terrible police work. They have a
               | rich history of killing, beating, racism, and organized
               | crime. Maybe they're still doing bad police work, ever
               | considered that? This budget is to protect them from
               | civil rights lawsuits they're losing on the regular...
               | which actually makes them the law breakers.
        
           | skrtskrt wrote:
           | LAPD has never been anything but a violent gang, and the DA
           | didn't "stop prosecuting criminals"
        
             | tharne wrote:
             | > the DA didn't "stop prosecuting criminals"
             | 
             | The voters of California certainly think he did:
             | https://calmatters.org/justice/2024/11/george-gascon-
             | pamela-...
        
               | skrtskrt wrote:
               | yeah because there were tens of millions of dollars spent
               | on right wing reactionary ad campaigns to convince people
               | of that
        
         | dragonwriter wrote:
         | > LAPD and LASD are going to bankrupt Los Angeles.
         | 
         | LAPD and LASD aren't both part of any single entity called "Los
         | Angeles" (the city and county of that name being separate
         | entities).
         | 
         | > They're more concerned with being a paramilitary police force
         | versus stopping or preventing neighborhood crime.
         | 
         | That's pretty much true (and foundationally so) of all American
         | local general-jurisdictions police forces.
         | 
         | LASD and LAPD may have problems beyond those endemic to
         | American police agencies, but that isn't one of them.
        
       | whatshisface wrote:
       | Here's an interesting thought about how preferential surveillance
       | can lead to repression even when it's public and not itself acted
       | on:
       | 
       | 1. Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at
       | about the same rate (things like parking violations and music
       | piracy).
       | 
       | 2. However, people who are being watched will be caught more
       | often.
       | 
       | 3. The end result is that people in the "wrong" crowd on average
       | are punished more than people in the "right" one at an equal
       | level of misbehavior.
        
         | amarcheschi wrote:
         | Just today I was preparing some slides for a course that makes
         | the student participate and show some topics we're interested
         | in regarding social and ethical issues in compsci
         | 
         | I googled a bit and I found a hn comment that talked about an
         | article which explains what you say
         | 
         | Basically, they estimate drug use in the population, and they
         | draw a map, and black and white people more or less have the
         | same habits in drugs use. They draw a map of the past arrests
         | by the police for drug crimes and they're skewed towards the
         | black neighborhood. There's a bit more about it since the
         | article dealt with predictive policing and Ai but the gist is
         | what you're saying, and this causes a self reinforcing feedback
         | for the police (which in turn arrests more black people and the
         | loop goes on)
         | 
         | https://rss.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.1740-...
        
           | jimbob45 wrote:
           | Sounds like that estimate is doing all of the heavy lifting
           | and cannot, by definition, ever be verified.
        
             | amarcheschi wrote:
             | Yeah, that's quite a strong assumption. Basically, they're
             | assuming that the local drug use is similar to the national
             | one. While not perfect, they provide some other cases in
             | which these data were deemed more trustworthy than police
             | reports. at least to me it is quite crystalline that a
             | system relying on past police data to predict future crime
             | will be inherently biased by the fact that the police data
             | itself is biased towards certain demographics
        
         | coolspot wrote:
         | > Every demographic commits petty crimes and code violations at
         | about the same rate
         | 
         | Do you have data backing this claim? For example, homicides
         | (that are not a subject for reporting bias) don't follow a
         | uniform distribution, so I would expect other crimes to also be
         | non-uniform.
        
           | Centigonal wrote:
           | I remember, back when cannabis was illegal in most states, a
           | common argument was that white and black people reported
           | using cannabis at the same rate when surveyed. However, many,
           | many more black people ended up in prison for it.
           | 
           | Here is a survey of US youths that supports this premise:
           | https://monitoringthefuture.org/data/panel/demographic-
           | subgr...
        
             | Aloisius wrote:
             | I'm confused. That doesn't appear to show the same rates
             | between demographics.
             | 
             | It appears to show generally more frequent use in men than
             | women, younger than older and until somewhat recently,
             | white than black or hispanic.
        
             | coolspot wrote:
             | > people reported using cannabis at the same rate when
             | surveyed. However, many, many more black people ended up in
             | prison for it.
             | 
             | As I understand it, people went to prison mostly for
             | selling or possessing amounts that are implying selling.
             | Which might explain the difference. Would you go to prison
             | for possessing a single joint back then?
        
         | deepsun wrote:
         | 1. Bogus claim. I'm pretty sure Swiss drivers run red light way
         | less than Lebanese, for example.
        
         | Aloisius wrote:
         | _> 1. Every demographic commits petty crimes and code
         | violations at about the same rate (things like parking
         | violations and music piracy)._
         | 
         | What? The rates of parking violations and music piracy vary
         | dramatically with age and gender.
        
       | blorkusmelorkus wrote:
       | Twitter started as TXT2MOB for organizing protests, and now it
       | and social media have become surveillance tools. The irony.
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | > _Twitter started as TXT2MOB for organizing protests, and now
         | it and social media have become surveillance tools_
         | 
         | Propaganda, communication and surveillance vary only inasmuch
         | as the sender and/or receiver are cooperating. When done in
         | public, communication necessarily empowers the other two.
        
           | Centigonal wrote:
           | This is a really great piece of wisdom. Thank you!
        
       | ngruhn wrote:
       | Don't you have to register protests in the US? So if there
       | registered the police already knows about them, right? And if not
       | they are illegal, no?
        
         | JumpCrisscross wrote:
         | > _And if not they are illegal, no_
         | 
         | Usually not, no. At least not until lawfully ordered to
         | disburse.
        
         | sureglymop wrote:
         | This isn't a statement about these specific protests (that I'm
         | not informed enough about) but don't you find "registering" a
         | protest at least a little bit laughable?
        
         | 7402 wrote:
         | It depends where you are and the circumstances. You certainly
         | need a Parade Permit if you will be marching down a city street
         | blocking traffic, e.g, for New York City:
         | https://www.nyc.gov/site/nypd/services/law-enforcement/permi...
        
       | fortran77 wrote:
       | It would be malpractice if Law Enforcement didn't track
       | terrorists and terrorist sympathizers gathering to support
       | terrorist regimes.
        
         | swores wrote:
         | You're confused - this story is about tracking people
         | protesting for peace, not tracking either the IDF or Hamas.
        
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