[HN Gopher] Apple has locked me in the same cage Microsoft's bui...
___________________________________________________________________
Apple has locked me in the same cage Microsoft's built for Windows
10 users
Author : beardyw
Score : 65 points
Date : 2025-03-12 10:00 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theregister.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theregister.com)
| fsflover wrote:
| > Will we have just two mobile OSes?
|
| We already have an alternative. Sent from my Librem 5 running
| GNU/Linux.
| ThePowerOfFuet wrote:
| > Sent from my Librem 5 running GNU/Linux.
|
| Or is that Systemd/Linux?
| officeplant wrote:
| Unfortunately my Pinephone is rather dusty at this point.
| WillAdams wrote:
| This was one of the reasons I bought into the recent Raspberry
| Pi 5 tablet the Pilet on Kickstarter --- I'm hoping it, or a
| Raspberry Pi connected to a Wacom One or Wacom Movink 13 will
| work as a general-purpose device.
| 42lux wrote:
| Yet, another I've bought a tablet but should have bought a laptop
| to replace my old laptop "article". It's not ready, why apple
| does it like this we don't know... but pretending that we don't
| know it despite talking about it for 10 or more years is
| disingenuous and fails the debate at hand.
| fsflover wrote:
| > It's not ready, why apple does it like this we don't know
|
| What is not ready? A tablet today can surely run a full OS
| without restrictions [0]. Apple doesn't want it, and it's worth
| talking about it.
|
| [0] https://puri.sm/products/librem-11/
| 42lux wrote:
| That's not really the discussion. We know that iPadOS is
| shit. On windows and Linux there are form factors that fit
| the users use case perfectly but they don't want these
| products. Instead of adapting to those system they decide to
| rant about apple not doing what they want... yet we only see
| these posts from apple users that talk like there is no
| alternative.
| Closi wrote:
| Windows OS is bad for a tablet compared to iPadOS.
|
| iPadOS is bad as a laptop compared to Windows.
|
| Nobody yet has been able to fully square the two different
| paradigms.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| I recommend the starlite if you don't depend primarily on
| battery power. Personally won't be going back to Apple's
| golden handcuffs, and would never consider the user-
| hostile MS.
| vinceguidry wrote:
| I have one, and switched to a Framework in a Cooler Master
| case, I carry around a portable screen to connect it to.
| Reason is power. Even if you get enough RAM, the CPU will peg
| at the slightest provocation.
| dangus wrote:
| Yeah but is the Librem 11 any good?
|
| I already made that mistake with Linux phones. They were
| unusable crap.
|
| Immediately I can tell you that $1000 for a tablet with an
| Intel N5100 (Celeron) is not a good buy at all. The processor
| you get in the iPad Pro is 7x faster at multi-core operations
| and 4x faster in single thread (PassMark).
|
| You can play recent AAA games like Resident Evil 2 (Remake)
| on an iPad Pro. It looks very similar to a home console in
| terms of level of detail in graphics.
|
| The 3DMark Wild Life Unlimited benchmark is a difference in
| performance score of 12x
|
| You're also getting a tandem OLED display that's essentially
| the best display on the market.
|
| These are not even in the same class of device. I have to
| seriously question what the Librem 11 is actually good at?
| What is the target audience going to do with it? Being able
| to become root and fuck around in the terminal on a potato
| device isn't a use case. I can just go do that on a laptop or
| desktop which will be a much better device for doing those
| kinds of tasks.
|
| If things that tablets are good at and intended for like
| drawing, viewing content, and any tablet workflows (e.g.
| digital audio produciton or film editing) or games involving
| high performance are all _literally_ 10x better /more
| performant on an iPad, what is the Librem tablet supposed to
| be good at that isn't going to be a better experience in
| something like a Framework or even just a Dell/Lenovo laptop
| with Linux installed?
|
| People don't buy devices to read the source code.
| fsflover wrote:
| It all depends on your use case. I'm using Librem 5 as a
| daily driver.
| dangus wrote:
| Isn't that kind of a cop out answer?
|
| I'm sure it's a great daily driver for someone who wants
| to do almost nothing on their phone.
|
| I mean we are talking about a $800 phone with no 5G
| modem. That's already a dealbreaker just from a carrier
| spectrum allocation aspect alone. This is a phone that
| will not get as good of a connection to do basic things
| like make calls and exchange texts/images/vidoes compared
| to any other device on the market.
| alp1n3_eth wrote:
| I think there's a difference between Microsoft refusing to
| support completely operational hardware for their new OS, and
| Apple not adding extra features / support into a pre-existing
| product just because the underlying tech is now more powerful.
|
| It sounds weird, but going OS #1 -> OS #2, you don't expect your
| hardware to impact it from a computer point of view. But going
| from iPad #1 -> iPad #2, why would it all of a sudden have a
| completely different OS and support when iPad #1 is even still
| receiving updates?
|
| We've reached the age where you need 16GB ram to even keep some
| tabs open on Mac + Windows, and in terms of versatile computing
| and gaming I think cloud-based Linux really is the answer. Once
| it comes time for my next gaming computer upgrade, I'm pretty
| confident with just using a game streaming platform vs. paying
| $500 for a new graphics card + anything else (since my current MB
| doesn't support Windows 11...). Same goes for coding, just
| connect the IDE to your dedicated cloud box and away you go, all
| the power and scale you could ever need from $10/mo and up.
| johnisgood wrote:
| "cloud-based ... is the answer", please, I hope not.
| gerdesj wrote:
| In my attic is a Dell PowerEdge T320 - it used to run VMware.
| That got as far as ESXi 6.5 and then it went out of support
| completely by VMware.
|
| Last year I migrated all my VMs to Proxmox. I have two RAID
| volumes on it, so I moved the lot to the second volume, wiped
| the first one and installed Proxmox on it. I migrated the VMs
| over to QEMMU and binned the second volume (save power!)
|
| The real point of this diatribe is that my attic server is
| fully supported once more by the OS vendor(s). They give a shit
| about me - Debian and Proxmox. Perhaps you might contrast that
| with your discussion about Microsoft and Apple's approaches to
| hardware and systems support.
| axpvms wrote:
| >Will we still have just three operating systems to choose from -
| of which only two are really suitable for a worker's desktop?
|
| That's going to go down poorly with the Linux enthusiasts
| archontes wrote:
| I'm not even a Linux "enthusiast". I simply find Windows to be
| a terrible product and Linux to be a better product. I simply
| use the least terrible option.
| dangus wrote:
| Heck, that's going to go down poorly with those who will
| correctly point out that not only are there a gazillion Linux
| desktop environments which equates to a lot more than 3
| "operating system" choices ("Linux" is just the kernel and a
| set of included/bundled/related technologies) but that there
| are also other systems you can daily drive like FreeBSD that
| aren't even Linux.
| pjmlp wrote:
| As former Linux enthusiast, I am alright with it, I rather
| game, watch hardware accelerated videos, got access to the
| tools I need, and I need to reach out for GNU/Linux, can always
| start a VM.
| linguae wrote:
| Unfortunately many people rely on proprietary software packages
| that don't run on Linux, such as Microsoft Office, the Adobe
| Creative Suite, and other desktop software tools that serve
| various niches like CAD, music, video production, desktop
| publishing, etc. There are often FOSS alternatives that run on
| Linux, but sometimes these alternatives have shortcomings that
| hinder adoption, such as lacking necessary features, having
| imperfect file format compatibility with proprietary file
| formats, having a less intuitive UI, etc.
|
| With that said, the desktop Linux ecosystem has come a long way
| over the past 20 years that I've been following it, and I think
| desktop Linux serves the needs of people who are not reliant on
| the Windows and Mac ecosystems.
| tombert wrote:
| Even if the alternatives were just as good or better, their
| workflow is likely entirely different. Different keystrokes,
| different ways of doing everything, slightly different quirks
| than the "brand name" software.
|
| I like some of the Linux alternatives more than the "brand
| name" software, but I don't work in media or document
| creation. If I had all the keystrokes for Adobe Premiere
| memorized, it would be a pretty tough sell for me to drop
| that to move to something like Lightworks or something.
| Gualdrapo wrote:
| The thing is that they're just tools. Having some
| keystrokes memorized does not mean you can't learn new
| keystrokes or, in some cases, you can't change them.
|
| When I worked at uni I saw people rescinding when applying
| for a web design job because the computer they gave to them
| didn't had Photoshop installed - not that it was required
| to do anything super special, they just needed to crop
| images and export them to a given size. People, specially
| in the media sector, are incredibly dependent on "brand
| name" software.
| tombert wrote:
| I don't disagree, people _can_ learn new keystrokes and
| workflows, but it just makes it a tougher sell.
|
| Imagine that you've been using Windows for twenty years.
| You have been doing paid professional work with Adobe
| Premiere for twenty years. You have a workflow with the
| two that has worked for about twenty years. Linux might
| be better, but it's probably not _that_ much better than
| the setup you have right now, and the applications you
| have built your business on don 't exist on that
| platform, and there would be a pretty steep learning
| curve to pick up the new stuff.
|
| I can't speak for anyone else, but I probably wouldn't
| move to Linux at that point.
|
| Now, if I were already using the Windows version of
| Lightworks or Resolve, that might be different; a lot of
| my knowledge would transfer over, and that might be
| enough for me to change over.
| bgnn wrote:
| luckily the software I need to use works only on RHEL.
| tombert wrote:
| I mean, unless you work in software or extremely high-budget
| movies, Linux is a pretty tough sell.
|
| A lot of the "mainstream" apps simply do not exist on Linux.
| LibreOffice isn't so bad, but most people simply want Microsoft
| Office. Lightworks is decent software, but most people want
| Adobe Premiere. Gimp is alright but most people want Photoshop,
| etc.
|
| This isn't to say that Linux software "worse", I actually like
| Lightworks more than Premiere, and there are some applications
| that are competitive with the "brand name" applications like
| Krita, but "having good software available" is only half the
| battle. People get used to certain workflows, and if Linux
| doesn't support that workflow most people aren't going to think
| it's worth it to switch over.
|
| I _do_ work in software, and I run NixOS, and I like it a lot,
| since programming tools on Linux are generally very good
| (especially if you work in server-land like I do). I 'm just
| saying that I don't really blame people who don't want to
| switch over.
| rs186 wrote:
| That's why I am still using iPad Pro from 2018. There is nothing
| in their new iPads that is interesting to me. I don't think I'll
| upgrade unless any of the following happens: (1) the iPad dies
| (2) it stops getting any updates and cannot install any apps (3)
| it can rust Python/Rust/Go/vscode natively at raw performance,
| without all those stupid, unnecessary sorcery just to make things
| run at a fraction of real hardware power.
|
| Voting with my wallet.
| nkotov wrote:
| I have two iPads Pros. I still can't figure out where I can use
| them. I realize that they are overpowered entertainment devices
| for me now.
| SOLAR_FIELDS wrote:
| I see visual artists and musicians having some decent use cases
| for them. Everyone I know who has an iPad that isn't one of
| these professions is usually using it as an expensive portable
| streaming device
| widforss wrote:
| I think pastors and politicians have quite some use of them
| as well.
| fragmede wrote:
| Or anybody that stands a lot without a desk handy, that
| doesn't want to use https://a.co/d/aqI3SvI and try type
| into a laptop.
| dlachausse wrote:
| I use mine all the time for taking notes, keeping up with my
| calendar, and just for staying organized in general. The Apple
| Pencil is so smooth and natural.
| anon7000 wrote:
| They are solid for audio production too, with a lot of fairly
| powerful DAWs. (Like AUM or Loopy Pro.) you can even connect
| MIDI instruments from other apps into the DAW and then play
| them with a connected midi controller, add USB audio interfaces
| for multitrack recording and live performances, etc.
|
| Or it can be a glorified PDF reader for sheet music (with a
| nice pencil to boot)... and it's also great for drawing.
|
| They're very powerful devices. Sure, iOS is limited, with poor
| multitasking workflows. But you can still write very powerful
| apps for iOS.
| pjmlp wrote:
| My Samsung tablet replaced my dead netbook, it is perfectly
| fine for the occasional computing needs I had during travel,
| that I originally bought the netbook for.
|
| I get to watch hardware accelerated videos, that the Linux
| distros on the netbook never managed to after Flash was gone
| never managed to get VAPI working.
|
| I get to play games, designed for Android, without needing to
| translate Windows/DirectX on the go, because studios can't be
| bothered to port Android/NDK into GNU/Linux.
|
| I get to read ebooks and take notes with the pen.
|
| The detachable keyboard is good enough for short sessions of
| writing documents, sheets, travel planing, playing with shader
| code, python and C# development snippets on the go.
| hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
| Care to share your preferred e book reader application that
| supports notes?
| kcplate wrote:
| I am an avid iPad Pro user (on #3) but it took me making a
| concerted effort to unlearn over three decades of my
| understanding of what a computer is to me, my old standby app
| favorites, and to be willing to force myself to use the new
| instead of leaning on the comfortable old. Prior to that I'll
| admit that it was an entertainment device. Now it can basically
| serve all of my computing needs.
|
| What caused me to make the switch is the portability, battery,
| immediacy, and cellular option. For me it provides the utility
| of a smartphone and laptop, but with a better form factor
|
| I hated it at first but its use quickly became second nature.
| Caveat here is I no longer write code or require total
| configurability into the bowels of the machine...and to date,
| for me, I haven't found a computing task that I need or want to
| do that it cannot handle.
| jmull wrote:
| I guess this kind of article always gets attention, but they
| always seem so stupid to me.
|
| A thing exists that I don't want.
|
| I could:
|
| (1) ignore the thing; or (2) complain that the thing isn't
| something I want
|
| (1) seems so obviously the right thing to do. This goes double
| when _the thing you do want does, in fact, exist_.
|
| But, no, the internet opts for (2). I guess complaining just
| feels good, even when it's about something that has zero actual
| effect on you (or on anyone, even).
| dangus wrote:
| The author literally just bought the wrong device for their
| needs.
|
| Probably 95% of people who own computers do not need root
| access and should not have it, possibly ever. The iPad is a
| great device for all the people who need what it offers. It's
| an amazing graphical tablet, it's a cheap way to watch movies
| and play games, and it's an amazing system to use while
| standing without a desk (e.g., for retail and outdoor
| situations). All of these use cases have nothing to do with
| gaining root access.
|
| Heck, I don't even think most of my development tasks on a real
| desktop computer involve elevating into root privileges. I'd
| sure like the ability to but if it was taken away from me I'm
| not sure it would affect me all that much.
|
| _" I don't consider any system without root access to be a
| real computer. So anyway, I decided to buy a Roku streaming box
| as my main computer and it sucks! What's wrong with the world
| today!?"_
| pjmlp wrote:
| Some folks seem to be in the fashion that everything with a
| CPU can get a monitor and a keyboard attached to it,
| regardless of the original design purpose.
| Apocryphon wrote:
| Why not?
|
| https://www.youtube.com/@BringusStudios
| pjmlp wrote:
| Personally I rather buy hardware fit for purpose.
| pessimizer wrote:
| The hardware isn't keeping a keyboard or monitor from
| connecting, unless it was specifically designed to
| prevent that.
| Daishiman wrote:
| There is no reason apart from Apple's closed-source
| restrictive software policies that the device is nowhere
| near as useful as it could be.
| linguae wrote:
| Agreed. The iPad, from a hardware point of view, is a
| close approximation to Alan Kay's Dynabook concept
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynabook). It's a shame
| that iPads are so locked down; I'd love to use an iPad
| with an unrestricted operating system.
|
| I have a Microsoft Surface 7 Pro. Even though Windows is
| not my favorite operating system, I enjoy using the
| hardware. I'm also looking forward to Framework's
| upcoming 12" convertible tablet; I also have a Framework
| 13 laptop.
| pjmlp wrote:
| If it doesn't fit you, don't buy it only to complain.
|
| There are other vendors with more open experiences.
|
| If those vendors actually get enough market share, maybe
| even Apple might adopt them.
|
| Exactly like they did with keyboards, pen, and windows
| management, that came before on PC and Android tablets.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| > Probably 95% of people who own computers do not need root
| access and should not have it, possibly ever
|
| But they should be able to take it to someone else who can
| use root access to fix it
|
| The idea that a person should not have any access to be an
| admin of a physical device that they own is ridiculous
|
| They might not need it, they might not ever use it, but they
| should absolutely be able to if a situation calls for it
| api wrote:
| Unfortunately if you give non-technical users root you are
| also giving root to the phishing site or fraudster that
| cons them into giving it root.
|
| It's hard for technical people to get their heads around
| just what a hostile environment the modern scam and hustler
| riddled slop and spam infested Internet is. Using the net
| as a non-technical user is like walking around a dodgy high
| crime area of some third world city at night as an unarmed
| sixteen year old girl there on holiday.
|
| Tech folks get so good at ignoring and skipping all that
| nonsense that they stop noticing it. I get three or four
| phishing or scam attempts a week, some of which look
| convincing if you don't know how to examine an e-mail
| domain or a URL. It's a hellscape.
|
| An exercise for readers who don't believe me: get on a
| Windows machine and try to use regular web search to find
| and download a piece of software outside the App Store.
| Pretend you are non-technical and just looking for
| something to get something done. Be sure you do this from a
| VM you can delete after it becomes compromised, assuming
| you can actually get to a download at all behind all the
| popups and scam "your PC is infected!" sites.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Most techies not only know many, many people who aren't
| technical, they are also the ones who are called on when
| their family and friends get suckered. It is not
| ignorance that makes technical people think that everyone
| should be able to get root access to the things they
| "own," it is experience.
|
| This is so much "you support free speech because you're a
| good person, but if you heard what some people say..."
|
| > An exercise for readers who don't believe me
|
| With the number of actual Windows installations I, and
| other technical people, have cleaned the slime off of,
| this isn't persuasive. People who use Linux generally
| aren't ignorant of Windows, although some extreme Apple
| partisans might be.
| belorn wrote:
| If ignoring the thing would work then people would do that. The
| problem is not that anti-consumer products exist along side
| pro-consumer products. It is that anti-consumer products out
| compete pro-consumer products to the point that all that
| remains (within reasons) are anti-consumer products.
|
| There are market reasons for this behavior. Asymmetric
| information in markets (lemon markets), true cost obfuscation,
| hidden terms, platform capture, manipulations in form of anti-
| patterns, monopoly behavior, to just mention a few of the very
| large ones.
| jmull wrote:
| How would ignoring the ipad not have solved OP's problem?
|
| They could have just replaced their old macbook with a new
| macbook.
|
| Not that there's anything wrong with trying something new,
| IMO. But if you do so without doing any research, and it
| turns out to not be what you expected, there's nothing to
| complain about. Hopefully OP just returned the ipad and got a
| macbook upon realizing their mistake.
|
| You seem to be suggesting something deceptive is going on
| here, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of that.
| Daishiman wrote:
| You are literally adding even less value than the article by
| commenting on how a supposedly useless article is useless.
|
| And I don't agree. Those of us who know that markets have
| network effects and who believe that open computing is a value
| for humanity and closed systems opposite understand that it is
| value for new readers to know that things could be better, so
| as to steer at least some of the consumer choice away from
| these toxic, disposable products.
| hansvm wrote:
| This article seems a little ranty, but you could definitely be
| forgiven for thinking that iPads are general-purpose computing
| devices. There aren't any hardware limitations, and for years
| (haven't checked the last year or two), Apple was heavily
| advertising them as being just that, especially with keyboards
| and other add-ons. If you weren't intimately familiar with the
| goings-on, had brand loyalty from a MacBook that previously did
| what you wanted, and only spent an hour or three of research (a
| few hundred dollars of your time, or a 10-30% tax on this
| upcoming purchase) after seeing those ads, an article about how
| you were swindled would be appropriate.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Rants == clicks.
|
| No one really cares about folks extolling the virtues of stuff.
| They want good, meaty, abuse.
|
| I used to like _Mr. Cranky_ , a lot more than _Siskel and
| Eibert_.
| nottorp wrote:
| Yes? The iPad is a "content consumption" device. With the
| exception of a few graphics workflows, you're better off with a
| laptop/desktop.
| jauntywundrkind wrote:
| Add a Bluetooth keyboard, & then the two being separate
| products becomes a farce.
|
| I love the new MacBook Air's looks, but I can't help but
| constantly imagine how much better it would be as a detachable,
| or as a 2-in-1 convertible.
|
| The thing is, the laptop is just a bad format period. Ideally
| you don't want to be looking just above where you type: good
| ergonomics requires distance between those two. An elevated
| tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard is a far far better option.
|
| But Apple has these market segments that prevent actual good
| from being possible.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| > The thing is, the laptop is just a bad format period.
| Ideally you don't want to be looking just above where you
| type: good ergonomics requires distance between those two. An
| elevated tablet with a Bluetooth keyboard is a far far better
| option.
|
| I bring a laptop to the office, put it on a stand, plug two
| external screens and a USB-C hub with a keyboard and mouse.
| But I can also use it on a train, at an airport, on a ferry
| without all that extra gear. In the latter configuration the
| distance from where I type to where I look is bigger than on
| your default iPad.
|
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
|
| I do also like my 64GB RAM, 1TB drive, and 12 cores.
|
| The laptop is a perfect form for me. I'm sorry it doesn't
| work for you. The only thing for me "ideally" would be to be
| able to plug two more screens in (so... it's time to upgrade
| to macbook m4 max...)
| Gigachad wrote:
| People really need to just accept this. Apple might market the
| ipad as being a laptop replacement, but their actions is that
| it clearly isn't and won't be at least any time soon.
| fastaguy88 wrote:
| I am very puzzled. Apple has locked you in a cage because you
| bought an iPad to replace a MacBook? What is the cage, and why
| weren't you the jailer?
| frosting1337 wrote:
| I mean the author explains his thoughts in the article, you
| should read it again.
| protocolture wrote:
| iPad is a product segment, its not really comparable with legions
| of windows 10 machines not getting windows 11, which is vastly
| the same operating system as 10 with TPM2 and secure boot
| becoming hard requirements.
|
| Yeah it sucks apple doesnt give you root access to your tablet.
| And it does suck that microsoft wont let us upgrade our PC's. But
| they are different unique variations on sucking for largely
| different reasons.
| znpy wrote:
| I don't know if the author realised they proved Apple's point:
| they have paid money for an ipad but they will pay more money for
| an m4 macbook air anyway.
| lenkite wrote:
| Author has not tried WSL - its pretty amazing on windows and is
| the designated cage breaker for Windows. I run nearly everything
| inside WSL and all apps runs faster!
|
| Thanks to Windows security not scanning files inside WSL, the
| laptop fan doesn't start spinning up when doing I/O intensive
| work. Can actually rest the laptop on my lap without wincing.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-03-12 23:00 UTC)