[HN Gopher] AI-Generated Voice Evidence Poses Dangers in Court
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       AI-Generated Voice Evidence Poses Dangers in Court
        
       Author : hn_acker
       Score  : 109 points
       Date   : 2025-03-11 15:32 UTC (7 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.lawfaremedia.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.lawfaremedia.org)
        
       | fhd2 wrote:
       | Sounds like reasonable changes.
       | 
       | Generally speaking, I think evidence tampering is not a new
       | problem, and even though it's easy in some cases, I don't think
       | it's _that_ widespread. Just like it's possible to lie on the
       | stand, but people usually think twice before they do it, because
       | _if_ they are found to have lied, they're in trouble.
       | 
       | My main concern is rather that legit evidence can now easily be
       | called into question. That seems to me like a much higher risk
       | than fake evidence, considering the overall dynamics.
       | 
       | But ultimately: Humanity has coped without photo, audio or video
       | evidence for most of its existence. I suppose it will cope again.
        
         | mitthrowaway2 wrote:
         | I agree. The article didn't touch on this aspect, but we're now
         | at the point where even authentic recordings could be plausibly
         | denied and claimed to be fake. So the entire usage of
         | recordings as evidence will suffer a hit. We may essentially be
         | knocked back to an 18th century level of reliance on eyewitness
         | testimony. One wonders what the consequences for justice will
         | be.
        
           | Ukv wrote:
           | I wouldn't say we'd be quite back to pre-photo evidence days.
           | I feel a lot if not most of the value in a video/audio
           | recording is not just that the medium has traditionally been
           | difficult to edit, but that it's attesting to a lot of
           | details with high specificity. There's a lot to potentially
           | get caught out on with not a lot of wiggle room when
           | inconsistencies are spotted (compared to recalling from
           | memory). Document scans and static images are still useful
           | despite having long been trivial to edit, for instance.
        
           | datadrivenangel wrote:
           | Digital forensics will continue to be an in-demand skill!
        
           | nine_k wrote:
           | I can easily imagine a future where video evidence is only
           | acceptable in the form of chemically developed analog film,
           | at resolutions that are prohibitively expensive to model, and
           | audio recordings of any kind are not admissible as evidence
           | at all. Signatures on paper, faxes, etc are, of course,
           | inadmissible, too.
        
           | thereddaikon wrote:
           | There's already a process for this, its called chain of
           | custody. If you cant prove the evidence has a solid chain of
           | custody then it was potentially tampered with and isn't
           | reliable.
        
             | mrandish wrote:
             | Yep, "chain of custody." Came here hoping to see that
             | concept discussed since it's how the system already deals
             | with cases of potential evidence tampering. If the evidence
             | is of material importance and there's no sufficiently
             | credible chain of custody, then its validity can be
             | questioned. The concept started around purely physical
             | evidence but applies to image, audio and video. The good
             | thing about the ubiquity of deepfake memes on social media
             | is that it familiarizes judges and juries with how easy it
             | now is to create plausible fake media.
        
             | AnthonyMouse wrote:
             | The usual chain of custody goes something like: The store
             | has a video surveillance system which the police collect
             | the footage from, so the chain of custody goes through the
             | store and the police which implies that nobody other than
             | those two have tampered with it.
             | 
             | But then you have an inside job where the perpetrators work
             | for the store and have doctored the footage before the
             | police come to pick it up, or a corrupt cop who wants to
             | convict someone without proving their case or is accepting
             | bribes to convict the wrong person and now has easy access
             | to forgeries. Chain of custody can't help you in either of
             | these cases, and both of those things definitely happen in
             | real life, so how do you determine when they happen or
             | don't?
        
               | iamacyborg wrote:
               | Surely chain of custody applies if the accused has access
               | to the evidence? Perhaps I'm missing your point or I'm
               | overly optimistic about the legal system.
        
               | AnthonyMouse wrote:
               | Suppose the store manager is having a dispute with a kid
               | who keeps skateboarding in the parking lot, so the store
               | manager decides to commit insurance fraud by robbing the
               | store herself and then submits forged video of the kid
               | doing it to the police.
               | 
               | The store manager is in the chain of custody but isn't a
               | suspect, the accused is the kid. The kid doesn't even
               | know who actually committed the crime. How is the kid
               | supposed to prove this?
        
               | condiment wrote:
               | In this case, chain of custody needs to extend to the
               | capture device itself, and to any software that exists in
               | the supply chain for the video content.
               | 
               | There are some experimental specifications that exist to
               | provide attestation as to the authenticity of media. But
               | most of what I've seen so far is a "perjury based"
               | approach that just requires a human to say that something
               | is authentic.
        
               | _DeadFred_ wrote:
               | Chain of custody isn't real as long as the judiciary
               | gives the government a 'good faith' pass when chain of
               | custody isn't maintained/documentable in court. Go into
               | Lexus Nexus and look up 'good faith' related to 'chain of
               | custody'. Any 'protections' that can be waived away at
               | the judges whim when the standard isn't met by the
               | government are not actually real but pure theater to lend
               | legitimacy to the American judicial system that it
               | doesn't deserve.
        
             | LPisGood wrote:
             | This is unironically a usecase for blockchain.
        
               | adiabatichottub wrote:
               | Who needs a whole blockchain? Just basic public-key
               | cryptography would do the job.
               | 
               | Imagine if you will, that the NVR (recording system) has
               | a unique private key flashed in during manufacturing,
               | with the corresponding public key printed on it's
               | nameplate. The device can sign a video clip and its
               | related meta-data before exporting. Now, any decent
               | hacker could see possible holes in this system, but it
               | could be made tamper-resistant enough that any non-expert
               | wouldn't be able to fabricate a signed video. Then the
               | evidence becomes the signed video and the NVR's serial
               | number and public key. Not perfect, but probably good
               | enough.
        
             | _DeadFred_ wrote:
             | This is such BS. The government is ALWAYS deferred to when
             | the chain of custody is broken because 'good faith' is
             | applied. As long as 'good faith' is rountely dispensed
             | 'chain of custody' is nothing but propaganda for the
             | justice system not an actual tool used for justice.
             | 
             | As long as chain of custody ca be discarded because 'good
             | faith' whenever it becomes inconvenient it is not a real
             | thing.
        
           | AyyEye wrote:
           | > we're now at the point where even authentic recordings
           | could be plausibly denied and claimed to be fake.
           | 
           | We've been there for at least two years.
           | 
           | https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/04/judge-slams-
           | tesl...
        
       | dghlsakjg wrote:
       | How is AI voice faking any different than any other type of
       | faking? How is it different than a manipulated recording, or a
       | recording where someone is imitating another?
       | 
       | It is just as easy to fake many paper documents, and we have
       | accepted documents as evidence for centuries.
       | 
       | Photos can be faked, video can be edited or faked, witnesses lie
       | or misremember.
       | 
       | Is this just about telling lawyers that unvetted audio recordings
       | can be unreliable? Because that shouldn't be news.
       | 
       | Edit: this is a good faith question. I'm legitimately just
       | curious. Splicing and editing have been around since recording
       | was invented, I was legitimately curious why voice recordings
       | would have been given extra evidential weight when manipulating
       | recordings is a known possibility.
        
         | gdulli wrote:
         | "We've had projectile murder for centuries with arrows, how are
         | these machine guns and missiles any different?"
        
         | rout39574 wrote:
         | Presuming good faith here, faking recordings has been harder to
         | do, easier to detect, and less equivocal in the past than it is
         | now.
         | 
         | If it takes an FX house to generate a plausible recording of me
         | saying something I didn't say, that's a risky enterprise with a
         | lot of witnesses.
         | 
         | If my enemy can do it in their basement with an hour of
         | research, the exposure risk goes way down, and consequently the
         | expectation you'll see it in real life goes way up.
        
         | ceejayoz wrote:
         | Nuclear weapons require nation-state levels of resources. Now
         | imagine you can build one in your basement for $10k. Does that
         | change things at all?
        
           | dghlsakjg wrote:
           | I understand what you are saying, but my point is that I
           | could make plausible sounding recordings that did not reflect
           | reality by, for example, cutting recordings up with freeware
           | like Audacity, or even using a consumer level double tapedeck
           | before that. It wasn't Manhattan project levels of effort
           | before this.
           | 
           | This seems more like people losing their minds over 3d
           | printed guns, when hobbyists with a drill press have been
           | making guns in the garage for decades.
           | 
           | Yeah, its easier now to fake voice, but its not as if what
           | this article warns against wasn't possible before the latest
           | AI hype cycle. And it is also worth noting that voice
           | cloning/changing technology is not particularly new either
           | (I've been able to sound like Morgan Freeman using a phone
           | app for at least half a decade).
           | 
           | I agree that courts should be cautious around accepting voice
           | recording evidence, I just don't think that the ability to do
           | this is new.
        
             | ceejayoz wrote:
             | > I could make plausible sounding recordings that did not
             | reflect reality by, for example, cutting recordings up with
             | freeware like Audacity, or even using a consumer level
             | double tapedeck before that.
             | 
             | Sure, and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Hahn managed
             | to get quite a bit of nuclear material.
             | 
             | Being able to do it at scale, convincingly, in real-time,
             | for any arbitrary text, with just 30s or so of someone's
             | voice as a sample, changes the calculus a lot.
        
             | Majromax wrote:
             | > I could make plausible sounding recordings that did not
             | reflect reality by, for example, cutting recordings up with
             | freeware like Audacity,
             | 
             | Cutting up _what_ recordings, exactly? If you 're mixing-
             | and-matching, you need a pretty broad corpus of source
             | material with fairly consistent recording quality
             | (background noise, etc), and even still you're limited to
             | reproducing words that are already present. You can't cut-
             | and-splice together a recording of me saying 'Yes,
             | dghlsakjg, I embezzled $1 million and blew it on the
             | ponies' because there will be no recording of me saying
             | your username, 'embezzled', or 'ponies.'
             | 
             | The problem comes with the voice-cloning technology that
             | can construct entirely new sentences based on relatively
             | short voice profile samples.
             | 
             | > I've been able to sound like Morgan Freeman using a phone
             | app for at least half a decade
             | 
             | You've been able to sound like Morgan Freeman because of
             | specific, hard tuning work put into the voice changer. Now,
             | you can sound like your boss, or your neighbour, or your
             | ex.
        
               | gus_massa wrote:
               | I agree.
               | 
               | I edited the audio of a few math videos to upload to
               | YouTube and I had to fix "typos" like " _then one plus
               | zero is zero_ ". The problem is that there are no spaces
               | in the voice, so it sounds like "
               | _thenonepluszeroiszero._ "
               | 
               | So I had to look for a " _one_ " that is in a similar
               | context, after an "s" and before a ".", or at least a
               | similar one. And hope the speed matches, and adjust the
               | volume.
               | 
               | They were free videos, so it was not necesary to get it
               | perfect, but at least reduce the distraction caused by
               | mistakes.
        
       | carra wrote:
       | Wait some more time and photos or even video recordings will be
       | deemed just as dangerous. And then what? Even if there is real
       | evidence, it will have to be discarded unless it can't be
       | sufficiently validated. It will get very hard to prove anything.
        
         | paulnpace wrote:
         | If it goes that direction, one silver lining could be that they
         | also realize video conference tools used for court proceedings
         | should also go away.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | Or perhaps camera manufactures will start putting traces in.
         | Anyone who makes surveillance systems (like stores use) should
         | put some end to end things in so they can say "this camera took
         | that recording and we can see that it wasn't tampered with
         | by...". (if anyone works for a surveillance company please run
         | with this!) With encryption we can verify a lot of things, but
         | it sets the bar higher than someone took a picture.
         | 
         | Of course in a darkroom someone skilled could always make a
         | fake photo - but the bar is a lot lower with AI.
        
           | AnthonyMouse wrote:
           | Cryptography doesn't really fix it. There are a zillion
           | camera makers and all it takes is one of them to have poor
           | security and leak the keys. Then the forger uses any of the
           | cameras with extractable keys to sign their forgery.
           | 
           | Or they just point a camera at a high resolution playback of
           | a forged video.
           | 
           | This also assumes you can trust all the camera makers,
           | because by doing this you're implicitly giving them each
           | authorization to produce forged videos. Recall that many of
           | these companies are based in China.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | The point is the camera maker certifies in court under
             | perjury penalty that their cameras are not compromised and
             | that is their image. "Other camera systems are compromised,
             | but ours is not...".
        
               | AnthonyMouse wrote:
               | Cameras are an IoT device. The S is for security. What
               | good is having the company certify something that isn't
               | true?
               | 
               | It seems like it would just be a mechanism to lend
               | undeserved credibility to something that still isn't
               | trustworthy.
        
             | gs17 wrote:
             | > Or they just point a camera at a high resolution playback
             | of a forged video.
             | 
             | Exactly, it's just like DRM or cheating in video games.
             | Even if everything in software is blocked, there's always
             | the analogue hole.
        
         | Lanolderen wrote:
         | The smart encryption people will fix it. At some point it had
         | to be fixed anyway since LLMs have only made it less effort.
        
       | nottorp wrote:
       | So... those talking head "influencers" who leave multiple hours
       | of voice and video samples on social networking for anyone to
       | download and clone are the most at risk for an attack like this?
        
       | treetalker wrote:
       | I question the wisdom of setting the judge up as a superjury /
       | gatekeeper for this kind of situation. This seems like a
       | reliability / weight of the evidence scenario, not a reliability
       | / qualification of the witness scenario (as with an expert
       | witness).
       | 
       | Why would the judge be better qualified to determine whether the
       | voice was authentic, as opposed to the witness? And why should
       | the judge effectively determine the witness's credibility or
       | ability to discern, when that's what juries are for?
       | 
       | All that said, emulated voices do pose big problems for
       | litigation.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | I don't know what the latest is, but often judges are supposed
         | to not allow "expert testimony" without checking that the
         | person is an expert. However this is a really complex area.
         | Judges don't want to be the one deciding a case, but not
         | allowing some "expert" is in a way deciding the case.
        
           | hiatus wrote:
           | Isn't it up to the opposing party, and not the judge, to
           | impeach an expert?
        
             | ARandumGuy wrote:
             | If it was solely up to the opposing party, then they'd
             | strike down every single expert. The judge still is the
             | ultimate decider on what evidence (including expert
             | testimony) is admissible.
        
           | zusammen wrote:
           | There's a built-in design paradox. How does a judge assess an
           | expert in a field where he is not one? There's probably some
           | improvement that comes from experience but it's not perfect.
        
         | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
         | Excluding fake evidence is very much a responsibility of the
         | judge. In the age of Fox News, letting the jury decide for
         | themselves whether or not made-up bullshit is actual evidence
         | seems like a recipe for disaster, and not necessarily one that
         | errs on the side of caution.
        
           | treetalker wrote:
           | To the contrary, in US courts the jury determines whether
           | evidence (documentary, testimonial) is credible or not, and
           | what weight (if any) to assign it. (Experts, a la _Daubert_
           | etc., are a different matter because they give expert
           | opinions, not factual evidence based on personal witnessing
           | of the events in the case, so the judge does perform a
           | gatekeeping function, essentially to ensure the underlying
           | field /science is reliable.)
           | 
           | While certainly Fox News headlines would not reach the jury
           | in most instances, that is on account of hearsay, lack of
           | qualification, materiality, relevance, and similar rules. It
           | is not a prior credibility or weight determination by the
           | judge, as I understand TFA to be advocating. So: did the
           | witness hear a voice that he believed to be the one in
           | question? If so, jury gets to decide (unless unfairly
           | prejudicial or some other overriding rule comes into play).
        
             | pharrington wrote:
             | IANAL, and I am assuming you are a lawyer - I interpreted
             | @NoMoreNicksLeft as saying that it's a judge's
             | responsibility to determine whether or not evidence is
             | admissible - before it gets to a jury. And that's also what
             | the article is talking about - "The examples should
             | illustrate circumstances that may satisfy the
             | authentication requirement while still leaving judges
             | discretion to exclude an item of evidence if there is other
             | proof that it is a fake. "
        
             | NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
             | >While certainly Fox News headlines would not reach the
             | jury in most instances, that is on account of hearsay,
             | 
             | Nor should obviously fake evidence reach the jury. They can
             | judge for themselves whether testimony is credible, but
             | this is far different than admitting faked evidence. And if
             | you can't see the difference, I'm not sure I'm qualified to
             | explain it to you.
        
         | whywhywhywhy wrote:
         | Gell-Mann Amnesia effect comes to mind.
        
         | _DeadFred_ wrote:
         | You mean like expert witness polygraphers that were treated as
         | fact by the courts for years and still used to re-incarcerate
         | people on parole/probation?
         | 
         | Or gun matching (ballistics) that are no longer considered
         | conclusive but subjective?
         | https://www.mdcourts.gov/data/opinions/coa/2023/10a22.pdf
         | 
         | Hair and Fiber expert analysis that was wrong?
         | https://innocenceproject.org/fbi-agents-gave-erroneous-testi...
         | 
         | Or do you mean bite mark analysis that was again wrong?
         | 
         | Many of these forensic methods were used for decades and
         | presented/treated as conclusive evidence before being
         | challenged leading to wrongful convictions. But yes, let's have
         | 'certified' voice experts whose living is based on being hired
         | by the government and giving testimony to convict people.
         | Surely this time it will be altruistic and scientific.
        
           | klipklop wrote:
           | What always worried me is that nobody ever challenged these
           | methods. We just accepted it as fact. Endless crime tv shows
           | reenforce that these methods are infallible. People that
           | watch these shows then become jurors. Scary.
        
       | exe34 wrote:
       | On a related note, why oh why does Lloyds Bank insist on grabbing
       | my voice for login every time I call them? I have to keep saying
       | "no, fcuk off!" a dozen times until it gives up.
        
       | Lammy wrote:
       | In the future this stuff will get so good that the public will
       | beg to be surveilled at all times because it will be the only way
       | to prove what you didn't do. You will learn to love Total
       | Information Awareness. Consent status: manufactured :)
        
         | nostrademons wrote:
         | It could easily go the other way, where the public doesn't care
         | what people think they did or didn't do and just does whatever
         | they want, because they don't respect the state and believe the
         | social contract has been broken. "Fuck justice, talk to my
         | AR-15."
         | 
         | There's ample evidence that this is already happening, eg.
         | recent headlines about kids being radicalized at increasingly
         | younger ages, groups like No Lives Matter that embrace violent
         | nihilism, increased domestic terrorism, record high gun
         | ownership across both sides of the political spectrum,
         | authority figures that just do whatever they want and ignore
         | any form of law or accountability, etc.
        
           | bilbo0s wrote:
           | I don't know man?
           | 
           | We're already at a place where most people don't care what
           | other _people_ think of them.
           | 
           | Issue is, as long as the government has the big guns, what
           | the government thinks of you will still matter in a major
           | way.
           | 
           | In such an environment, most people are going to choose to
           | have some kind of way to prove to the government what they
           | did and what they didn't do. Not because they care what other
           | people think as you're implying, but rather because they very
           | much care that the government not get the wrong idea about
           | them. Because the government getting the wrong idea about you
           | can be fatal.
        
             | nostrademons wrote:
             | Government is based on the _threat_ of the use of force,
             | not the _actual_ use of force. If you 're a government that
             | is regularly using force against a significant proportion
             | of your citizens, you have problems, and probably will not
             | remain the government for long.
             | 
             | I suspect that we're saying the same thing but with
             | reversed causality. Both of us agree that non-deterministic
             | enforcement breaks down the incentives needed for pro-
             | social behavior. You're saying that this will cause people
             | to demand ways to improve the governments enforcement
             | abilities. I'm saying that this will cause people to adapt
             | their behavior to the new, lessened enforcement abilities.
             | In defense of my point, I'd point out that changes to
             | government are a coordination problem while adaptation of
             | behavior is an individual-only response, and it is _much_
             | easier to effect changes to your own behavior than it is to
             | convince 300 million people to agree on a solution and
             | implement it, particularly when the root problem is a lack
             | of enforcement ability.
        
               | bilbo0s wrote:
               | Keep in mind that being able to demonstrate your
               | innocence to the government is also just an individual
               | change in behavior. A person might not necessarily care
               | if _you_ use the tracking technologies or submit yourself
               | to all the cameras in society. But they 'll choose to do
               | it themselves just so that there's that record out there.
               | 
               | The government coming up with one way to track everyone
               | is not really necessary to get people to submit to
               | tracking. In fact, most of the law enforcement "watcher"
               | types wouldn't want that anyway. Not only is having a
               | myriad number of ways to track and surveil people is far
               | preferable to law enforcement, but it also allows people
               | to individually choose to set up all the Ring doorbells
               | and security cameras and GPS trackers and smart glasses
               | based body cams etc etc all on their own.
               | 
               | And they'll happily choose to buy all that stuff
               | voluntarily and without regard to what everyone else is
               | doing.
        
               | nostrademons wrote:
               | I think the issue demonstrated by this article is that
               | technology is getting such that demonstrating your
               | innocence to the government is _not_ an individual change
               | of behavior, and that there are ways to abuse the
               | demonstration mechanisms that effectively feed false
               | information to the government.
               | 
               | Imagine that the populace supports widespread
               | surveillance techniques, and so cameras are setup
               | everywhere. Some hacker group figures out how to hack
               | into the cameras and insert deepfakes in them. Now
               | members of that hacker group have a government-proof
               | alibi whenever they want it, and can commit crimes at
               | will, and get it blamed on others. Justice goes out the
               | window.
        
       | tgv wrote:
       | I'll say it again, even though it is rather unpopular here: there
       | has never been a need to develop these tools, nor one to make
       | them easy to deploy, nor one to make them easy to use. Yet all
       | this has happened, and now it may occur that someone is acquitted
       | because AI generated media is so good, the evidence might be
       | artificial. If that happens, and the suspect commits another
       | crime, it's on the conscience of the people that contributed to
       | this. You cannot create something and pretend its use has nothing
       | to do with you.
       | 
       | The tools aren't perfect yet, so it's not too late to stop. Stop
       | the ridiculous image and audio generation tools before it's too
       | late. Nothing of value is lost when these models are made private
       | again, and research is simply halted.
        
         | cootsnuck wrote:
         | It actually is too late for that. For anyone unaware, the open
         | source models are already more than sufficient enough for
         | imitations and deepfakes. For better or worse there's no going
         | back.
         | 
         | Personally, I'd rather we all know this tech is out there and
         | develop defense mechanisms rather than thinking hiding it away
         | will prevent harm.
         | 
         | The cyber security industry exists because of all the privacy
         | and security issues posed by all the tech we already have had
         | for the past several decades.
         | 
         | I'm confident the same will happen for AI simply because it is
         | a business opportunity and other businesses and institutions
         | are already talking about these issues.
        
         | bdangubic wrote:
         | _You cannot create something and pretend its use has nothing to
         | do with you._
         | 
         | has always worked with guns so it'll always work with anything
         | else :) and guns will kill more people that AI-generated shit
         | for foreseeable future
        
         | qwertox wrote:
         | I do want a computer which talks to me like a person, with that
         | agility. I am used to listening to voice.
         | 
         | I am tired of reading so much stuff which could well be spoken
         | to me. Like this comment here, which you now need to read.
         | 
         | It's only very recently that living beings on this world have
         | learned to read and write, it's not normal. It's normal to
         | communicate through sound.
        
           | krainboltgreene wrote:
           | What an incredible line to end on. "It's not normal to
           | read/write".
        
             | qwertox wrote:
             | I'm not aware of any other species which is capable of
             | reading and writing. But many can certainly hear and make
             | sounds.
        
               | MichaelDickens wrote:
               | I'm not aware of any other species with a >10,000 word
               | vocabulary, either.
        
         | educasean wrote:
         | Fatalities due to automobile accidents are a major drag. We
         | should've stuck with horses
        
         | a2128 wrote:
         | There is some use to bringing deepfakes to mass adoption. The
         | thing is that since the tech exists, powerful actors with lots
         | of resources will develop these tools for their own use either
         | way. The question is whether they'll be able to fool the masses
         | who are unaware that such realistic deepfakes can exist, or
         | whether they will have no effect as everyone and their mom have
         | already seen similar AI slop on their Facebook feed
        
       | recursive wrote:
       | Here's my plan.
       | 
       | 1. Cryptographically hash each piece of media when it's recorded.
       | 
       | 2. Submit the hash to a "trusted" authority.
       | 
       | 3. It will add a timestamp and sign the result.
       | 
       | 4. Now, as long as you keep the original, without re-compressing,
       | and you trust the authority, you have some evidence that the
       | media existed at a timestamp. On or before.
       | 
       | This doesn't prove authenticity, but in many cases, establishing
       | a timestamp would be enough. Forgeries probably wouldn't be
       | created until later, after the shit hit the fan.
       | 
       | Or maybe this doesn't work at all.
        
         | AnthonyMouse wrote:
         | Thieves are planning an inside job. They forge the surveillance
         | video ahead of time, do the theft and submit the forgery to be
         | timestamped while it's happening.
         | 
         | Also, a lot of surveillance systems are purposely kept offline
         | to prevent them from being compromised, but your system doesn't
         | allow that because they would need external connectivity to get
         | signatures.
        
           | lolc wrote:
           | Sure when you're controlling the source, you can fake it. But
           | requiring the fakes be prepared ahead of time locks the faker
           | into one story that may be contradicted by other evidence.
        
             | AnthonyMouse wrote:
             | That's pretty much what happens anyway. The police are
             | going to come collect the footage as soon as the crime is
             | reported and you can't change it after they do.
        
       | tiahura wrote:
       | Why can't objecting party ask to voir dire the witness and find
       | out if they can distinguish between AI and real recordings?
        
       | gortok wrote:
       | What shocks (and irritates!) me is that Charles Schwab keeps
       | wanting me to set up voice ID. Why would I want to set up a voice
       | ID for something that is now trivially spoofed?
        
         | alamortsubite wrote:
         | When was the last time you encountered this? I remember getting
         | nags up until around the end of last year, but not lately. I
         | like to think they dropped the program because I expressed
         | concerns about it to so many reps, but more likely I've just
         | been dialing in on a different number.
        
         | MichaelDickens wrote:
         | Schwab used to have an 8 character maximum on passwords
         | (although at least they changed that). They have never been a
         | paragon of good security practices.
        
       | belter wrote:
       | To avoid the scenarios like the one described in the court case,
       | setup a family password or keyword. The bot will not know it.
        
       | TeeMassive wrote:
       | I think we're going to see C2PA (https://c2pa.org/) being
       | mandatory for cellphones. At least when there's at least one
       | implementation and that all digital cameras has an integrated
       | TPM.
        
       | TriangleEdge wrote:
       | AI threatens all digital perceptions, not just voice. Images,
       | videos, recordings, ... I think soon enough proving things in
       | court beyond a reasonable doubt when the evidence is digital
       | media will be difficult/impossible.
        
       | PolieBotics wrote:
       | I've developed a novel approach to creating tamper-evident video
       | via cryptographic feedback loops between projectors and cameras.
       | The process works as follows:
       | 
       | 1. A projector displays a challenge pattern (derived from a
       | Perlin noise function of a hash) 2. A camera captures this
       | projection 3. The system hashes the captured image and uses it to
       | derive the next projection 4. This chain demonstrates true
       | temporal sequentiality that's difficult to forge
       | 
       | By incorporating random noise derived from Byzantine Fault
       | Tolerant networks and using these networks as timestamping
       | servers, the proofs inherit the network's decentralization
       | properties. ML then confirms that the feature distributions in
       | projection-photograph pairs match expected patterns from the
       | training dataset.
       | 
       | Demo video and GitHub repo available here:
       | https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliePals/comments/1j8qm2j/truth_be...
        
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