[HN Gopher] Kagi Is Bringing Orion Web Browser to Linux
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Kagi Is Bringing Orion Web Browser to Linux
Author : ulrischa
Score : 214 points
Date : 2025-03-08 18:04 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.omgubuntu.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.omgubuntu.co.uk)
| superkuh wrote:
| I tried out paid kagi for a 3 months (even if you pay in bitcoin
| they still require your address). One thing you might want to
| know before going in is that Kagi does not return many search
| results. It never returns more than two short pages of results
| (~100). It is impossible to use Kagi like you'd use a search
| engine from 1995-2015 to 'surf' the web and find things by
| accident. That said, google only ever returns <400 results and
| Bing only ever returns <900. So there are no real options for
| search these days.
|
| I thought paid Kagi would be a real search engine. But it's not.
| And Kagi's browser is closed source so that's a no go too.
| yesfitz wrote:
| I'm a happy Kagi customer, but that's an interesting use case
| for a search engine that I hadn't previously considered. Is
| there a "golden era" of search engines returning results for
| discovery?
|
| I use forums, wikis, and content aggregators (e.g. Reddit) to
| discover related topics. If a search engine returns too many
| results, I refine my search terms.
| alabastervlog wrote:
| In my mind, the three eras of search engines are:
|
| 1) Before Google.
|
| 2) Google before '08.
|
| 3) Google after '08.
|
| 1 and 2 were both pretty good for just exploring.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| I think Google after around 2022 is also another phase,
| where it became completely unusable.
| gazook89 wrote:
| Have you tried kagi small web?
|
| https://kagi.com/smallweb/
|
| It's not "browse search results" but more "curated
| stumbleupon".
|
| You can also change your search lens from just generic "web" to
| "small web", "forums", "academic" etc or create your own
| lenses.
|
| I don't think these answer your particular browsing pattern,
| but I for one am happy that it doesn't return hundreds of
| results. I feel like that is kind of the point, even. I'd
| rather get fewer, but better, results and have it just say
| "look buddy, there isn't anything else". Plus, I'm not stopped
| from just adding `!g` to the query and getting 1000 garbage
| Google results if I want.
| 8organicbits wrote:
| Can you explain your use case? Looking at hundreds of results
| from a search query doesn't strike me as "finding things by
| accident", but I'm curious to know more.
| dcminter wrote:
| I used to do this too - it used to be that after you passed
| the first couple of pages of results from the
| major/mainstream sites the rest would be minor personal
| websites, forums, and similar. Find one good article on one
| of them and it was often worth adding to your bookmarks or
| RSS collection to ensure you saw the writer's later
| additions.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| They probably need your address for tax purposes. Especially
| the EU is really strict on charging us VAT for foreign
| purchases.
|
| It does completely kill the anonymity though, I agree. It's
| strange that in this case they're worse than something like
| duck duck go. Because they don't require payment they simply
| have less data on you (especially confirmed data). I'm sure
| kagi protects it but the data you don't even have is even
| better protected.
| colingauvin wrote:
| You can detach searching from any association with your paid
| account:
|
| https://help.kagi.com/kagi/privacy/privacy-pass.html
| ravetcofx wrote:
| you may like to try https://marginalia-search.com which is
| great for finding things unexpectedly and much more from the
| small internet. https://stract.com is great too
| lurk2 wrote:
| Even when Google was good I can't really recall ever browsing
| beyond 100 results unless I was looking for a post in a forum,
| so I don't know that this is really a knock against them given
| that their value proposition is that you pay them and they
| don't collect your data. I do find it surprising that so many
| people in this thread seem to be excited about Orion; I'm not
| interested in using anything proprietary to browse the web.
| jacekm wrote:
| https://millionshort.com/ might be the search engine you are
| looking for.
| dogman123 wrote:
| Orion on iOS has been life changing for me.
| Volundr wrote:
| As a Linux Firefox user who is Orion-curious I'd be interested
| in hearing more about how.
| kemotep wrote:
| Full manifest v2 ublock origin on an iOS browser is pretty
| amazing.
| teruakohatu wrote:
| You got me excited and I installed it but uBlock Origin
| does not work and is not supported on iOS.
|
| If you have it installed and it appears to be working, it's
| probably the default native ad blocker that's doing the
| work.
|
| https://orionfeedback.org/d/9145-ublock-origin-not-
| existent-...
| worble wrote:
| Wait... so they browser says it's supports manifest v2
| and lets you install v2 extensions, but then they just
| silently don't work? That's pretty confusing behavior.
| Why even offer them if they're blocked on an OS level?
| knowitnone wrote:
| can you expound on this "life change"?
| throwaway743950 wrote:
| Not who you are responding to, but it properly blocks ads. I
| can actually view things like recipes on mobile. It's great!
| (Blocks YT ads too.)
| dogman123 wrote:
| It allows Firefox and chrome extensions!
| brendoelfrendo wrote:
| Being able to set my default browser to Kagi was enough. I'll
| deal with Orion's bugs for now because I don't want to go
| back.
| Mossy9 wrote:
| I've been loving Kagi search and am really looking forward to
| Orion being available outside Apple land. You can join the email
| list here: https://kagi.com/changelog#6479
|
| I'm a bit worried that Kagi might be over-extending here. Instead
| of focusing and capitalizing on search, they're expanding to the
| difficult business of browsers. I'm always hesitant when
| companies try to do everything everywhere all at once, since that
| might cause a loosening of focus on the original product.
|
| I hope them all the best nonetheless - people actually paying for
| software is due a comeback!
| 42lux wrote:
| They started with Orion.
| Mossy9 wrote:
| Oh really? I did not know that. Sounds a lot better than the
| other way around
| jmbwell wrote:
| Trying to use Kagi with other browsers lays bare the depth of
| collusion between browser makers and search providers. Getting
| out from under all that makes Kagi a whole lot more seamless
| and useful.
|
| It's ironic that it is its own tight collusion, with the
| difference that you can use Orion just as well with any other
| search providers as with Kagi.
|
| So yeah, it seems like a departure from search, until you
| consider that for the features that make Kagi a worthwhile
| search product (privacy, neutrality, etc), "you can't get there
| from here" with the other browsers.
| lurk2 wrote:
| > (privacy, neutrality, etc)
|
| It's proprietary. There's no way of knowing that it's
| private.
| chias wrote:
| This is something I don't understand. Kagi has been my only
| search engine since they dropped the price to $10/mo. I've
| only ever used Kagi with Firefox, and I use it on Linux,
| Windows, and Mac. I just add it to my search engines and set
| it as default, which takes about 15 seconds.
|
| Everything seems to just work seamlessly. Searching in
| private windows works without any configuration or token
| juggling.
|
| I have never tried the Orion browser or the extension because
| I don't understand the problem that they allegedly solve.
| malnourish wrote:
| I use Kagi at work in Firefox and Edge with no issues. I
| use it at home with Firefox and Chrome (Windows 10) and
| Iceraven on Android. No issues.
| brightball wrote:
| My guess is that they realize the opportunity created by
| Mozilla's sudden change in privacy terms.
| colonial wrote:
| I think this is correct. I refuse to touch Chromium with a
| ten-foot pole, but there aren't really any other options on
| Linux. (Yes, there is LibreWolf and other forks, but I doubt
| any have the resources to "go it alone" should Mozilla fold
| or go completely turncoat.)
|
| The closest extant option is something like GNOME Web (also
| based on WebKit like Orion) but the lack of extension support
| and poor performance makes it a non-starter.
|
| As someone who already pays for Kagi _search,_ Orion will
| definitely be on my radar. I 'll gladly volunteer $5/mo if I
| can just copy-paste my extensions unchanged and keep
| browsing.
| Crontab wrote:
| Doesn't Kagi Search just regurgitate Google's search results?
| jasonvorhe wrote:
| Never seen that happen and I've done hundreds of comparative
| searches by now.
| amelius wrote:
| Relax, they didn't write the entire browser. It's webkit based.
| poetril wrote:
| Kagi has been one of the biggest value adds to my online life in
| a long time. Paying for the Kagi ultimate plans gets me access to
| the latest LLM models, and an incredible customizable search
| engine with a large focus on privacy. The Orion browser has been
| my favorite to use on iOS, I'm not sure if I'd use the desktop
| version because of its web kit base. But I'm glad to see it's
| moving forward.
| vvpan wrote:
| I keep being confused by this. People mention that Kagi has all
| these features but I never see them, do I have to up my
| subscription plan?
| galleywest200 wrote:
| It seems that a lot of them are sort of "off" by default to
| keep search focused on search. If you want to get an LLM
| summary of a search, for example, end the search with a
| question mark. Example: "what is gravity?" instead of "what
| is gravity".
|
| The summarizer lives at a different page, here:
| https://kagi.com/summarizer/
| vvpan wrote:
| Oh I see. I knew "lenses" existed but as you say it's a
| multi-step process to use them and not from the browser
| search bar.
| i_love_retros wrote:
| Can also click the quick answer link on existing search
| results page.
|
| And each search result item had a menu that includes an
| option to summarize the page.
| radicality wrote:
| I use that super often, probably in vast majority of
| searches. It's basically an llm synthesized version of
| the results. You can also get it by the shortcut `q` on
| the results page, or by ending your query with a `?`
| i_love_retros wrote:
| You need the ultimate plan to get the assistant which gives
| access to lots of llms
| frizlab wrote:
| Using a non-chromium browser is actually the only thing we can
| do nowadays to promote an open web. Also I have next to no
| issues using webkit on the web currently. It's a good engine
| now.
| lurk2 wrote:
| > Using a non-chromium browser is actually the only thing we
| can do nowadays to promote an open web.
|
| Orion is closed source.
| pyrophane wrote:
| I believe the above is just referring to diversity of
| engines. If 99% of everyone uses Chromium then there's no
| incentive to support open standards that work across all
| browsers.
| perihelions wrote:
| Primary source:
|
| - _" We're thrilled to announce that development of the Orion
| Browser for Linux has officially started!"_
|
| - _" Register here to receive news and early access opportunities
| throughout the development year:
| https://forms.kagi.com/?q=orion_linux_news "_
|
| https://bsky.app/profile/kagi.com/post/3ljqsgjmkpk2n
|
| (I interpret that to mean there's a closed beta?)
| edent wrote:
| I wish there were a Webkit based browser for Android.
|
| There are dozens of Firefox- and Chrome-based browsers, but
| nothing else. Wonder why?
| c0balt wrote:
| Because a browser is not just the engine (JS, Wasm, ...). A
| chrome/Firefox derivate is far easier to create because you can
| piggyback on their integration work (and maintenance) around
| these components.
| mappu wrote:
| Igalia are doing an Android port of webkit named WPE-Android[1]
| including a mini browser shell. There is an APK you can run[2].
|
| 1. https://blogs.igalia.com/jani/bringing-webkit-back-to-
| androi...
|
| 2. https://github.com/Igalia/wpe-android/releases/tag/v0.1.3
| edent wrote:
| I caught my fish! Thank you :-)
| dooglius wrote:
| What exactly is the benefit over Waterfox or Ungoogled Chromium
| here? The FAQ https://kagi.com/orion/faq.html#firefox seems to be
| things that are specific to Mac or have privacy features already
| offered by open-source alternatives.
| Mossy9 wrote:
| I would say it's the business model. Customers paying you to
| provide a good service is straightforward for both parties
| c0balt wrote:
| Fwiw, it's a webkit-based browser. Another alternative browser
| engine in a usable browser is a plus for the Ecosystem.
|
| On the other hand, it promises to be a simple yet usable
| (builtin adblock + privacy) browser. Ime, brave is probably the
| closest however it has a lot of nagging around their crypto and
| ads.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Kagi has crypto now too? I thought that was just brave.
| yurishimo wrote:
| The comment you replied to is also saying that they find
| the Brave crypto annoying.
| ashton314 wrote:
| Kagi does not have crypto
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| For the Mac version, one of the "features" is that it's built
| with the native UI toolkit and tries to blend into the desktop
| instead of setting itself apart with "branded UI" like browsers
| tend to do these days. Presumably the Linux version (which I'm
| assuming is built with GTK) would similarly adhere to GTK
| desktop (mostly GNOME) conventions.
| james_pm wrote:
| Orion for macOS is still pretty buggy and, in my experience, a
| bit too frustrating to use as my default browser. I want to use
| it and pay the $5/month even though I don't use it all the time.
| It's close to being good, but not quite there yet.
| nicce wrote:
| Some bugs are pretty bad. There was one that drained my battery
| in 30mins. But I know it is difficult for a small team.
| throwaway743950 wrote:
| How long ago was that? I've been seeing consistent progress
| on bugginess.
| nicce wrote:
| This was actually just last week. I guess GitHub made that,
| but I could not yet reproduce it.
| 12_throw_away wrote:
| Yeah, I basically give orion a try every few months, I think
| the _idea_ is fantastic. But it just hasn 't ever hit the level
| of bug-free reliability that I would need, especially with
| extension compatibility. (Can't say this is surprising at all -
| making a web browser would be a ton of work even if the web
| wasn't a moving target)
|
| It does seem like their long tail of issues is going down -
| each time I check in, it _is_ clearly improved. So fingers
| crossed it continues to get better ...
| jmbwell wrote:
| Counteranecdata: I use Orion every day as my daily driver on my
| work machine, together with Bitwarden for passwords and a
| couple simple extensions. I can't remember it crashing or
| failing to render a page, and at least on my apple silicon
| machine, it has been very polite with resources.
| grahamj wrote:
| I've been full-timing it on iOS lately and yeah, pretty buggy.
| It comes with uBlock but doesn't seem to work, and neither does
| bookmark/fave syncing.
| lawn wrote:
| I'll chime in that Kagi has been an incredible improvement over
| Google and DuckDuckGo search wise.
|
| I'm glad that we're seeing more alternatives in the web browser
| space and Orion being a paid option is believe it or not a
| selling point for them. I'm interested to see where it ends up.
| trostaft wrote:
| Very interested, their search tool has been good for me, just
| haven't been able to try the browser.
| konart wrote:
| Kagi is still buggy as hell for me though.
|
| Text selection jumps all around even on hacker news (I say even
| because HN is pretty has pretty simple html\css\etc). Any web
| site with non-english letters and complex layot kills it.
| CGamesPlay wrote:
| I assume you mean Orion. Does that still happen if you enable
| compatibility mode? I don't have the same problem, but I've
| reported several problems on the feedback forum and had some
| luck with getting them resolved.
| drdaeman wrote:
| I wonder if it is going to be proprietary-licensed (like their
| macOS version) or Free Software?
| CodeCompost wrote:
| Kagi is cool and all but...
|
| I'm in Europe. I'm busy disengaging from US based services.
|
| Any good EU alternatives?
| xandrius wrote:
| https://european-alternatives.eu/category/search-engines
| pjerem wrote:
| I'm in the same boat but for Kagi it's a little different : I
| don't pay them because they are privacy friendly (or at least
| that's another reason) but because the search quality is better
| than everything else, including Google.
|
| However fwiw, Startpage is nice.
| dustyharddrive wrote:
| Keep in mind that Startpage is owned by an American
| advertising company: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/System1
| freehorse wrote:
| There is no good alternative right now. Even eu-based ones use
| google's or bing's search indexes, essentially being a
| different frontend for google and bing, so imo it does not make
| much difference. Kagi sort of does sth similar, but much better
| imo, which is also why I use them.
|
| There is a common initiative by ecosia and qwant to build their
| own index [0], which is hopeful though, and something to look
| forward to.
|
| [0] https://blog.ecosia.org/eusp/
| alchemist1e9 wrote:
| > I'm busy disengaging from US based services.
|
| Can you explain why? From privacy and free speech perspectives
| aren't US services now better?
|
| Kagi now probably has the best search privacy features in the
| world after recent upgrades with Privacy Pass and even a ToR
| endpoint.
| upcoming-sesame wrote:
| Because the recent trade war has started a trend of "buy
| European' across the continent
|
| buy-european-made.eu
| alchemist1e9 wrote:
| Before these trade war escalations the US imposed an
| average tariff rate of about 3.5% on EU goods, notably
| lower than the EU's 5.2% on US goods, and lacked the high,
| sector-specific tariffs seen in the EU. While the US
| maintained a relatively uniform rate, 2.5% on cars and
| slightly higher on food and chemicals--the EU targeted
| certain US sectors with very steep tariffs, like 32.3% on
| dairy.
|
| We should also mention VAT. The EU's 21% VAT jacks up
| prices, a EUR100 item hitting EUR121 will slash demand.
| This provided around EUR1 trillion revenue for EU
| governments in 2024. While the US's typical 7% sales tax
| keeps a $100 item at $107, hurting demand less, total about
| $457 billion in 2024. This gap makes US goods pricier in
| the EU (27.7% markup with tariffs) versus EU goods in the
| US (10.8% markup), acting like an extra trade wall for
| American exports, while the EU's VAT refund on exports
| gives their firms a edge.
|
| Notice we haven't even mentioned defense spending yet ...
| Phelinofist wrote:
| Do you understand that stuff made in Europe and sold in
| Europe is also subject to the VAT?
| berdario wrote:
| it seems he also overlooked, in his tirade against EU
| VAT, that almost the whole world has VAT.
|
| It's just an handful of countries like USA and Malaysia
| that are the weird ones, and don't implement a VAT tax
| rc_mob wrote:
| America under Trump is the least free that America has ever
| been. Your freedom argument is outdated, The USA has a
| fascism problem right now and we are trying to fight it.
| sanbor wrote:
| https://leta.mullvad.net
| lxgr wrote:
| Seems to be based on Google and Brave, both US companies.
| areyourllySorry wrote:
| extra salt in the wound because they pay google for the
| queries. at least when searching yourself you pay with
| data, which may or may not be less profitable for them
| quinncom wrote:
| Two ongoing projects to solve this:
|
| Qwant and Ecosia, two European search engines, announced on
| October 24, 2023, a partnership to develop a European search
| index to lessen their dependence on US tech giants Google and
| Microsoft. https://insidetelecom.com/qwant-and-ecosia-are-
| building-an-i...
|
| For the OpenWebSearch.eu initiative, 14 renowned European
| research and computer centers from 7 countries have joined
| forces to develop an open European infrastructure for web
| search https://openwebsearch.eu/
| crystal_revenge wrote:
| > I'm in Europe. I'm busy disengaging from US based services.
|
| It's worth pointing out that you're going to struggle with
| this, and it's because (as all software engineers know) Europe
| has never supported a strong tech/software developer friendly
| culture. To be clear: I am not saying there are not fantastic
| devs in Europe (in fact, most of the devs I respect the most
| are European), but the EU has _always_ struggled to pay
| competitively and grow its local software community. In fact,
| all the amazing software engineers I know in Europe.. work for
| US companies, making US software products (and making US total
| comp).
|
| Here's a quote of Alan Kay talking about this is in _1997_
|
| > [Dijkstra] once wrote a paper--of the kind that he liked to
| write a lot of--which had the title On the fact that the
| Atlantic has two sides. It was basically all about how
| different the approaches to computing science were in Europe,
| especially in Holland and in the United States. In the US,
| here, we were not mathematical enough, and gee, in Holland, if
| you're a full professor, you're actually appointed by the
| Queen, and there are many other uh important distinctions made
| between the two cultures. So, uhm, I wrote a rebuttal paper,
| just called On the fact that most of the software in the world
| is written on one side of the Atlantic.
|
| The time to address this, unfortunately for Europe, is not
| today, but 30-40 years ago.
| sebazzz wrote:
| You can't generalize the EU. It are dozens of completely
| different countries.
|
| > In fact, all the amazing software engineers I know in
| Europe.. work for US companies, making US software products
| (and making US total comp).
|
| What is an amazing software developer if it is not someone
| who delivers business value? Because there are a lot of
| software development companies in the Netherlands for
| instance, or teams part of companies, and they surely deliver
| business value or they wouldn't exist.
|
| By now I would also bet that of the small subset of
| developers considering emigrating to the States, sure think
| they've now dodged a bullet.
| Smithalicious wrote:
| Very convincing quote.
| init2null wrote:
| Fair enough, but I want the best possible searches. So that
| means Kagi, which includes Google, Bing, Brave, Yandex, and its
| own small web indexer. Pure European search is just unrealistic
| right now. Not unless you prefer the Eastern European flavor of
| Yandex alone.
| sunshine-o wrote:
| I am seeing this a lot recently, people trying to switch to EU
| based alternatives.
|
| I am not sure exactly what are your motivations but if it is
| privacy and trying to fight some sort of tyranny, I am afraid
| this might be a bit naive and maybe counterproductive.
|
| The EU is as much influenced by the interests of Big tech than
| the US. Maybe even more in a way. The regulations and fines you
| hear about are kayfabe.
|
| It is looking more and more like the net of regulations the EU
| is rolling out is turning Europe into a digital Gulag.
|
| Right now they only really met a resistance for that
| ChatControl one [0] but they have been trying for years over
| and over again, and will probably win at the end.
|
| The irony is if you want and EU alternative you might need to
| defeat the EU first, who has been preventing the emergence of
| alternatives for decades now. Or just selfhost as much as
| possible at home for now.
|
| - [0] https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/posts/
| imbnwa wrote:
| I've liked things about macOS Orion but some key extensions
| basically only work with Chromium browsers. That's not really on
| the Orion team, Chromium has a bunch of stuff neither WebKit nor
| Gecko support specifically around the file system and in-memory
| blob sizes
| shipp02 wrote:
| I would've thought that Windows would be the next platform to
| port to given its larger user base.
|
| Maybe the decision speaks to the distribution of Kagi users
| across operating systems.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| WebKit for Windows is not in a particularly well-maintained
| state, where WebKit-GTK (which is probably what Orion for Linux
| is built with) is in reasonable shape since it's already used
| by GNOME Web (aka Epiphany). That might have something to do
| with it.
| stevage wrote:
| I use Orion a bit on Mac. The blocker for me is that it doesn't
| support Ublock Origin. They claim that their built in ad blocking
| does 90% of what you need, but I really just want to be able to
| remove page elements at will.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Orion has a native element remover, just click the paintbrush
| icon in the toolbar.
|
| uBlock Origin support is at least partial because whenever I
| click an analytics-redirect link in my email and it opens in
| Orion, I get a uBlock "tracker blocked" page.
| vulcan01 wrote:
| This is kind of surprising. For me, uBlock Origin works
| perfectly on Orion (installed from the Firefox store), and the
| element zapper / eyedropper in uBlock Origin works as well. I
| haven't seen any difference between uBlock Origin on Firefox vs
| Orion.
| BrawnyBadger53 wrote:
| I'm using Orion with ublock origin right now?
| 7thpower wrote:
| Orion was a letdown for me. I've tried multiple times to switch
| over but basic things like autofill not working consistently were
| dealbreakers.
| mary-ext wrote:
| the decision to stick with WebKit for Linux is interesting, I
| haven't had a good time with WebKitGTK as it provides a subpar
| experience, so I wonder if Orion is going to be different in this
| regard
| bryanhogan wrote:
| Great to see them leave the Apple cage.
|
| But wondering why they would chose Linux before Windows and
| Android? Wouldn't these markets be much more relevant?
| realo wrote:
| If anyone from the Kagi team is reading this:
|
| Why does Orion on iOS not support Bluetooth Web BLE ?? That would
| really set it apart from Safari...
| sebazzz wrote:
| Nice, if it runs on Linux it can run on Windows through WSL.
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