[HN Gopher] Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital...
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Volkswagen reintroducing physical controls for vital functions
Author : zfg
Score : 211 points
Date : 2025-03-08 07:25 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.autocar.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.autocar.co.uk)
| BrenBarn wrote:
| We can only hope it's the start of a trend. I can't think of a
| single car feature I would want on a touchscreen instead of a
| physical control, except I guess something like GPS (which I
| don't really consider a car feature, but maybe that's just
| because I'm getting old and curmudgeonly).
| precommunicator wrote:
| Any feature that you have to fully stop to activate and is not
| often used IMO would be fine on a touchscreen, e.g disabling
| ESP.
| amelius wrote:
| The upside of a touchscreen is that you can make the buttons
| disappear if they go out of context.
| nottorp wrote:
| Who decides the context?
| phatfish wrote:
| Random know-it-alls on the internet obviously.
| bipson wrote:
| The point is that those "essential functions" never go out
| of context.
| amelius wrote:
| It's easy to end up with something like this though:
|
| https://phonewire.com/wp-
| content/uploads/2019/01/ne210_kx_nt...
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| What's wrong with that? The optimal UI for anything
| remotely complex arguably includes both physical and
| touchscreen controls.
| ano-ther wrote:
| I'd be interested in an economic comparison. How much does it
| actually save to replace physical controls with a touchscreen?
| NullPrefix wrote:
| Save? Where are you getting this idea from? Move from buttons
| to touchscreen raised the price because touchscreens are
| expensive. Return to buttons will raise the price once again
| because buttons are extra parts.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| The touch screen is there for other reasons (setup,
| navigation, ...) anyways and won't go away.
|
| (Not) Having physical buttons then is a cost factor.
| afiori wrote:
| Price is different from cost
| jqpabc123 wrote:
| Hyundai for the win.
|
| They do use touch screen functions --- but mainly for setup and
| configuration --- not for basic controls while driving.
|
| It's illegal to use a touch screen phone while driving in many
| areas --- and for good reasons. So why is it ok and legal for
| manufacturers to mandate the use of their built-in touch screen
| while driving? Seems contradictory to me.
| LightBug1 wrote:
| Yep - people think of Tesla first for EV's, but (for the
| overall package) Hyundai are far ahead.
|
| Emphasis on 'overall package'
| Izikiel43 wrote:
| Mazda as well
| kgermino wrote:
| Tho most of the "physical buttons" on my Hyundai are non-
| tactile, capacitive buttons.
|
| I love my Ioniq I think a lot of ways it's a better package
| than Tesla's but I still miss the physical buttons from my
| Honda. I can't get close to a button and find the right one by
| feel when it's a capacitive panel
| jqpabc123 wrote:
| I haven't driven an Ioniq yet but it sounds like they too may
| have taken a turn down the wrong path.
|
| I regularly drive a fairly new Elantra where all the
| essential driving controls are still physical with tactile
| feedback.
|
| My favorite is the environmental control. A single, big easy
| to find knob to adjust the temperature without your eyes
| leaving the road. Turn left (counter-clockwise) for colder,
| right for hotter. The car takes it from there and selects
| heat or a/c as needed with an appropriate fan speed. You can
| still adjust manually but I rarely do so.
| sschueller wrote:
| This whole thing started with Tesla. Re-inventing the wheel
| because they think they know better. Musk's MO.
|
| Other car makers only see the initial sales and jump on the wagon
| to copy and undo what was learned over many years to be safer
| only to then creep back many years later.
|
| Same thing with Apple and removing the ESC key in favor of the
| touch bar or only having USB-C ports on a power user laptop with
| video over USB-C still being uncommon in conference rooms.
|
| So much wasted time and resources.
|
| Soon we will have removable batteries in phones and there will be
| people that have never seen this before...
|
| At least no one died not being able to plug in their laptop in a
| conference room but someone probably did die operating the AC and
| hitting a deer because they had to look down.
| lm2s wrote:
| Interestingly almost everything VW will reintroduce is already
| physical on Tesla, no? The only thing with no physical buttons
| on Tesla are the temperature and fans. Or am I missing
| something?
| pja wrote:
| > Interestingly almost everything VW will reintroduce is
| already physical on Tesla, no? The only thing with no
| physical buttons on Tesla are the temperature and fans. Or am
| I missing something?
|
| The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful turn
| buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.
|
| Fine for (most of) the US market but wildly impractical for
| anywhere you need to use the turn signals mid turn. Anywhere
| the road system uses roundabouts for instance.
|
| To some extent this is just US parochialism leaking out into
| the rest of the world, but it's typical of Musk style design
| to not really think through the reasons for existing design
| choices.
| amarcheschi wrote:
| Not having tactile feedback on turn indicators by stock is
| absurd imho
| nottorp wrote:
| > The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful
| turn buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.
|
| I've driven one with an indicator stalk.
|
| > Fine for (most of) the US market but wildly impractical
| for anywhere you need to use the turn signals mid turn.
| Anywhere the road system uses roundabouts for instance.
|
| ... but it was "smart" and didn't physically move and it
| was useless except for 90 degree turns. I call this the
| "designed in California" disease.
|
| Incidentally, we should be glad Apple abandoned their car
| plans too.
| blendergeek wrote:
| > I've driven one with an indicator stalk.
|
| Yes. Teslas used to have a proper indicator stick.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Model Y still has an indicator stalk.
| darkwater wrote:
| > The steering wheel on modern Tesla's has those godawful
| turn buttons instead of a proper indicator stalk.
|
| They now reverted that back in the Model Y refresh. Just
| the indicator stalk (the rest are still gone)
| jqpabc123 wrote:
| "Traditional" auto controls have been refined by over a
| century of trial and error and real world testing.
|
| It takes a special combination of hubris and immaturity to
| just cast much of that aside without very careful and
| thorough consideration. The results of doing so speak for
| themselves.
| nixass wrote:
| Tesla absolutely botched on so many things when ti comes to
| making cars safe. What is even more mind boggling is how people
| accepted it and don't see anything wrong with that.
| bayindirh wrote:
| They moved fast and broke things. Incl. but not limited to
| bumpers, windshields, bones, necks and families.
| ozim wrote:
| As much as Tesla hate is now being popular.
|
| It was not Tesla that started it, they just went all in on
| stuff that was already happening in industry.
|
| Capacitive and touch interfaces were supposed to be much
| cheaper because you can the same thing and then software
| define the function.
|
| Every auto maker wanted to have one widget for all
| functions.
| bayindirh wrote:
| > As much as Tesla hate is now being popular.
|
| I do not like Tesla since they began making cars, and
| declared that "8 cameras should be enough for everybody".
| While I like trains a lot, I don't prefer hype trains and
| popular lines.
|
| > It was not Tesla that started it, they just went all in
| on stuff that was already happening in industry.
|
| They went all in because they needed velocity, and
| everybody panicked and copied them without understanding
| the problems. Even Ford (the company which has a special
| simulator to measure cognitive loads of the dashboards
| they design) did the same mistake, without looking for
| the problems first, like Radon water jugs.
|
| > Capacitive and touch interfaces were supposed to be
| much cheaper because you can the same thing and then
| software define the function.
|
| > Every auto maker wanted to have one widget for all
| functions.
|
| I know. It's _always_ about the _monies_ , not the
| consumer or technology or whatnot. Enshittification, IOW.
| mihaaly wrote:
| Masses buy crap if it is famous and shiny and have bells and
| whistles a lot.
|
| If it is expensive too, then they become a fanboy!
|
| How else could the industry pour out bigger and bigger crap
| with huge earnings otherwise? Poeple love shiny and famous
| crap!
| exar0815 wrote:
| Working at a large Tier 1 Automotive supplier for most European
| OEMs but Tesla as well, it was a not-complete-joke to make show
| prototypes that massively hinted at Tesla or had some
| misleading branding and leave them accidentally lying around,
| when you wanted to increase your chances of selling it to any
| other OEM. Also, when you sold something to Tesla, you could
| already prepare RFQs for all others basically the day it would
| be released. Stopped since Musk went Bananas, now noone wants
| to be associated with them. At all.
|
| Edit: Clarified "them"
| boneitis wrote:
| I don't have much experience with non-tactile driving HUDs, but
| what always gets me is how, with every major version of
| Android, all the basic, essential functions take increasingly
| more screen tap counts in different places on the digitizer as
| they get buried deeper into submenus, calling for ever more
| amounts of your sensory bandwidth.
|
| These workflows, from quickly adjusting lcd brightness or
| toggling bluetooth to utilizing functionality in the Maps app,
| have devolved from almost-total muscle memory with one or two
| taps to multiple times that and all over the place on the
| smartphone display.
|
| People are obviously going to use their phones and heavily
| navigate with Maps while driving, no matter how much PSAs and
| campaigning happen. It's sort of like the developers are
| causing car accidents in the name of shipping off their users'
| engagement metrics back to the mothership.
| mmackh wrote:
| There is a large burden that smartphones have to carry by
| having to facilitate, or be in some way involved, in every
| aspect of our life. And at the same time, industries involved
| in producing these products, have to stay busy and employed.
| So we end up in a situation where everything stays in
| constant flux.
|
| Updates break older apps, change the UI/UX, it's really an
| interesting situation we're in at the moment.
| jmholla wrote:
| > I don't have much experience with non-tactile driving HUDs,
| but what always gets me is how, with every major version of
| Android, all the basic, essential functions take increasingly
| more screen tap counts in different places on the digitizer
| as they get buried deeper into submenus, calling for ever
| more amounts of your sensory bandwidth.
|
| Very much this. My favorite is so small, but so, so silly.
| Google Play used to have a search bar at the top of the home
| screen. If you click it now, a little message pops up saying
| search has moved to a different tab. So you click that tab
| and STILL have to click the same area of the screen to
| perform a search. So many moronic design choices at these
| companies.
| nytesky wrote:
| Loyal at the back door manual operation. So dangerous in
| emergencies. Need to remove a panel to operate??
| croes wrote:
| I doubt they thought it would be better, it just cheaper
| because you can fix it later in the software.
|
| The rest is just PR to sell inferiority as a feature.
| bloopernova wrote:
| Certainly people have died because their electric windows
| wouldn't work when the car was submerged in water. If I were
| world dictator, I'd mandate manual override levers for electric
| windows.
|
| Everyone should own a car window breaking tool, like a resqme.
| https://resqme.com/
|
| Tesla arrogance was shown with their semi truck design with the
| drivers seat in the middle of the cab.
| indexerror wrote:
| I have always assumed that I could just kick the window to
| break it open in a situation like this.
| victorhooi wrote:
| Car windows are probably harder to break than you
| think...lol. Also - consider the situation where the car is
| in, or partially in water, and pressure differentials.
|
| (There was actually another HN thread about this recently -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39691780).
|
| I keep a Resqme in the car glovebox - my other half used to
| do a lot of interstate driving, and I was always worried
| she'd be trapped in the car. The Resqme has both a seat-
| belt cutter, and also a centre-punch for easily breaking
| the side windows.
| bluGill wrote:
| windows are normaly tempered glass. You can't kick them
| out.
| fatboy wrote:
| When I was a kid I worked in a double glazing factory. Some
| of the old timers demonstrated just how hard it is to break
| a piece of toughened glass to me by whacking one with a bit
| of wood right in the middle of the pane, really really
| hard. Nothing happened. Then the dude tapped it really
| quite gently with a glass breaker in the corner (where it
| can't flex as much he said) and the whole thing exploded
| into those little cubes you see on the ground in dodgy car
| parks.
| aequitas wrote:
| There is a mythbusters episode about exactly this that is
| definitely worth the watch.
| amelius wrote:
| Those tools often don't work because the glass in many cars
| consists of layers of glass and a polymer. That gives it some
| nice properties but it's unbreakable even with a
| sledgehammer. I don't know about Teslas but I wouldn't be
| surprised if they again threw safety out of the window here
| literally.
| throwaway494932 wrote:
| People have died because their Tesla had electric doors and
| they couldn't open them after an accident [1]
|
| [1] https://futurism.com/the-byte/four-die-trapped-burning-
| tesla
| bloopernova wrote:
| holy crap, their _doors_ won 't open without power?!?
|
| How does that ever get past safety standards?
| mihaaly wrote:
| I recently bought an iPad as the previous one was probably 10
| years old and the screen died. The button on the front is
| dearly missed. Having that new damn thing on the dedicated
| shelf and I casually touch the button one handed to bring it to
| life is not there anymore. Have to hold it down for that damn
| side button. Also never be sure anymore what way is up and
| which volume is up and down. It it worse than a fussy child
| always want to be picked up, to be used two handed. All, the,
| time.
|
| They sacrificed usability for stupid and superficial
| appearances, those idiots!
| xattt wrote:
| I appreciate that automakers are not doubling down and creating
| capacitive touch pedals.
| euroderf wrote:
| Speaking of which... driving barefoot is a different
| experience; give it a try if it's legal in your jurisdiction.
| porridgeraisin wrote:
| > if it's legal
|
| It's illegal in some places?
|
| I'm in India and I learnt to and mostly always drive
| barefoot. If I try to drive with shoes it just doesn't feel
| right. I can't get the tactile feedback right. Have to get
| used to it I suppose. But then I don't really wear shoes that
| much (slippers do just fine for most of my day)
| nottorp wrote:
| Send some indian weather over :)
|
| Or go on a long trip to somewhere more northern and you'll
| have to either learn to drive in thick boots or freeze.
| bipson wrote:
| _Very_ illegal in most of the EU AFAIK
| technothrasher wrote:
| A quick search showed that it is illegal in Spain, but
| not Germany, France, or the UK, and nothing really
| showing up either way about any other European country.
| Though I didn't dig down enough to find legal advice I
| would actually trust.
| bipson wrote:
| It's not that clear cut it seems.
|
| For private drivers it is not illegal per se. _But_ if
| you have an accident, they (police, prosecution,
| insurance) will quickly blame it on unfit shoewear.
|
| There is (legally accepted) consensus in Germany and
| Austria that a regular, closed shoe without heels gives
| you best control.
|
| Barefoot is IMHO treated unfairly, _if_ you 're used to
| drive barefoot. And living in a country where people wear
| shoes most of the time, they will assume you're not used
| to it.
| technothrasher wrote:
| It's a common urban legend in the US that it is illegal to
| drive barefoot, but it isn't true. There are no state or
| federal laws prohibiting driving barefoot. I don't know
| about the rest of the world.
| SanjayMehta wrote:
| Driving barefoot is safer than driving with chappals
| ("flipflops"), at least your feet won't come off and get
| stuck in the pedals.
|
| For the hills I use shoes with a soft sole to "feel the
| road."
| teddyh wrote:
| It's apparently legal everywhere in the US:
|
| <https://web.archive.org/web/20040403224019/http://www.urbanl
| ...>
| lttlrck wrote:
| I was taught to drive manual barefoot - by an instructor. To
| get better pedal feel.
|
| (And decades later I simrace barefoot where there is
| essentially no useful pedal feel... in VR, so all physical
| interactions are completely blind - no touchscreens!)
| euroderf wrote:
| Power brakes took away some of the utility of driving
| barefoot. A definite loss of feedback. But then again, in
| the ealy 21st century in the West is there _any_ car that
| does _not_ have power brakes ?
| svelle wrote:
| A feel like people are missing that this change isn't just for
| the touchscreen but especially for the abysmal capacitive buttons
| on the steering wheel VW introduced with the Golf 8 and the id
| models. One of the worst design decisions I've yet to see in a
| car. Right next to their decision to put a capacitive slider for
| volume and/or heating right below the touchscreen where you'd
| usually rest your fingers when using said touchscreen while
| driving.
| technothrasher wrote:
| The Porsche Macan's whole center console went capacitive touch
| a few years back. It is atrociously bad compared to the earlier
| cars with physical buttons. It's impossible to find any of the
| "buttons" on the expanse of smooth surface without taking your
| eyes off the road.
| yakshaving_jgt wrote:
| I have a 2012 Cayenne and the cockpit is truly a thing of
| beauty. It feels like being a pilot. I hope they bring the
| buttons back. Photo attached for context.
|
| https://www.instagram.com/p/CKb34qtg0cf/?igsh=MTc3Y3Jpc2gwbD.
| ..
| AceyMan wrote:
| +1 your Cayenne
|
| We just got a clean 2013 Honda CR-V (loaded LX-L model) and
| it's got buttons & knobs (and dial gauges!). Really nice
| car, it feels like a Lexus inside.
|
| There is a small touchscreen, but it's mainly for the XM
| radio & Nav.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| >the volume, the heating on each side of the car, the fans and
| the hazard light - below the screen,"
|
| Not mentioned: wipers, shifter, and signals. Everyone here should
| consider these vital to driving the car.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| This is great.
|
| Dedicated buttons are far easier and faster to operate. Plus if
| your tablet cracks open you can still control most features. (I
| think).
|
| For a while I drove some bigger pickup trucks. (Long ago). They
| often bragged that the knobs and buttons were big enough to be
| operated with gloves on.
|
| Pretty great when it is cold out. and really easy to operate too.
|
| Modern cars do need a lot more buttons so making them smaller is
| nessescary.
| riz1 wrote:
| This news brought joy back to my life. I live in Berlin and often
| rent these Miles car share cars. The ID3 is an absolute joy to
| drive, way better than the Tesla's out there. But for me, those
| touch buttons are an actual nuisance.
| mnahkies wrote:
| It's great to see this change in direction.
|
| I had the opportunity to drive a Tesla recently, and I was pretty
| blown away by how hostile the ux was. Even the indicator stalk
| has no tactile feedback leading to me indicating left then right
| multiple times after completing a simple lane change (as I pushed
| it slightly too far for the lane change mode so it didn't shut
| off automatically). Don't get me started on things like the AC
| and window wipers being behind the touchscreen, it's like they
| designed it to require a copilot.
|
| It's driver aid features also get easily tricked leading to
| random steering corrections and slamming on the brakes. I'd love
| to know if anyone's analyzed the rate of rear end collisions
| compared to older/simpler cars, as I suspect it could be
| statistically higher.
|
| It was also fairly amusing parking it in the garage - it seemed
| to mistake our dog for a motorbike and the other vehicle as a
| truck with the 3 of us colliding, glad it didn't try and
| automatically phone in the "collisions"
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I drive a Model Y almost every day, and I don't feel
| inconvenienced by any of the digital controls, except the lack
| of volume knob if you have a passenger and they want to control
| the volume. I simply don't need to adjust anything except
| music.
|
| And lack of CarPlay, especially due to how convenient SharePlay
| is with other car passengers.
|
| Autopilot has also been sufficiently good for the price at
| which the car is sold at. At $40k, I did not find a competitor
| with a better version of lane assist.
| porphyra wrote:
| Honestly, it seems like people who clamor for physical
| controls are a vocal minority --- Teslas sell very well [0]
| and owner satisfaction is very high [1] despite the loud
| complaints from non-Tesla drivers online. It seems most
| people who actually drive Teslas are happy with them, and
| even controversial things like steering buttons take 5
| minutes to get used to.
|
| [0] https://www.visualcapitalist.com/ranked-the-worlds-best-
| sell...
|
| [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/car-reliability-
| owner-s...
| 42lux wrote:
| Citation needed.
| nixass wrote:
| > Teslas sell very well
|
| Someone's been sleeping for last 12 months
| redeux wrote:
| Maybe it's part of the reason that Teslas are involved in
| more fatal accidents than any other car manufacturer.
|
| https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a62919131/tesla-has-
| highes...
| porphyra wrote:
| That study was already debunked. They had underestimated
| the number of miles traveled by a large margin.
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/electricvehicles/comments/1gyznd
| a/t...
| redeux wrote:
| The study was debunked by a Tesla exec posting on X and
| reposted on Reddit. Excuse me if I view that with a very
| healthy amount of skepticism.
| porphyra wrote:
| The Tesla exec has access to the actual figure for miles
| traveled and why should he lie about something like that?
|
| And just from visual inspection, it is evident that there
| are numerous surprises with the iSeeCars study that are
| difficult to explain. For example, why is there such a
| huge difference between Model 3 and Y fatality rates even
| though the cars are similar in most respects?
|
| Another thing to note is that the number of fatalities is
| only a handful, often under 10 in a year. The standard
| deviation of the Poisson distribution would already give
| error bars of 30% at least, making direct comparisons
| between models meaningless.
|
| Finally, if you read the accident reports, most of the
| fatalities are head on collisions with drunk drivers and
| not wearing seatbelts. Having physical controls for hvac
| or whatever has absolutely nothing to do with it.
| kadoban wrote:
| > The Tesla exec has access to the actual figure for
| miles traveled and why should he lie about something like
| that?
|
| Because money?
| forgetfreeman wrote:
| > why should he lie about something like that?
|
| Nobody's that naive.
| stfp wrote:
| Do we believe that "people buy them and they like them"
| should be the end-all argument to judge everything? I think
| it's a datapoint but it doesn't mean that the thing is good
| for society or people themselves.
|
| Like 40% of people used to smoke. 40% of people are obese
| today. I'm not comparing these things to teslas in terms of
| harm (though funding musk is societal harm) but they prove
| that consumers can make very very bad choices and IMO do
| all the time
|
| The vocal minority acts as a valid canary, probably most of
| the time.
| jjcob wrote:
| People buy them and might still hate the touch screen. I
| know I hate my car's touch screen.
|
| Just because people buy something doesn't mean they love
| every aspect of it.
| tapoxi wrote:
| I have an ID4 around that price, it keeps the lane and has a
| lane change assist. Is there any special sauce to autopilot?
| nixass wrote:
| > Is there any special sauce to autopilot?
|
| Yes, copium
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I will be the first to say Elon is a Nazi and shouldn't
| be in a leadership position.
|
| But it's crazy to claim Model 3 and Y are not
| competitively priced products that are usable for many,
| many people.
|
| And I will also say I would not currently pay extra for a
| high end Tesla. But on the cheap end, and with the far
| superior buying experience without a stealership in the
| middle, it is welcome competition to the incumbent
| automakers.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| ID4 was at least $10k more expensive in Oct 2024, with
| worse driving performance.
| korisnik wrote:
| ID4's price seems to be $42k in the US? How much is the
| Model Y? Or did ID4's price decrease to $42k recently?
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| They added a new tier and dropped some and increased
| some.
|
| https://www.carscoops.com/2025/02/vw-ditches-
| base-2025-id-4-...
|
| I was comparing a 3 row model Y AWD with tow hitch to AWD
| Pro ID.4 and ID.4 was coming in close to $50k, both with
| the federal tax credit. And the ID.4 lacked the 3rd row
| seating. I am also biased against European vehicles
| because I assume they will be more maintenance/expensive.
| I had a bunch of people recommend Model Y to me, and I
| trusted Tesla's electric vehicle making experience more
| than VW.
| speedgoose wrote:
| Not really but it works nicely, also with less than ideal
| road conditions.
|
| Obligatory disclaimers:
|
| - Tesla is from USA and its CEO Elon Musk appears to be a
| nazi.
|
| - Mobileye, the company that sells driving assistance
| equipment to many car manufacturers including VW, is from
| Israel.
| whoitwas wrote:
| Windshield wipers, turn signal, heat? I feel like you're
| being dishonest or just accustomed to the hostility.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| Wipers and turn signals are physical controls, I don't find
| them much different than any other car.
|
| I haven't had to change heat/cool settings, I have it set
| to 70F and I haven't had to adjust it.
| whoitwas wrote:
| See. I'm a hacker. I need to control things. I bought the
| car and want access to it.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| There's an API and even third party buttons.
|
| I don't think there's any other modern car getting so
| much scrutiny. Ironically it is making it so much better
| than competitors they basically have no chance to catch
| up.
| yurishimo wrote:
| If they live in SoCal, 2/3 you listed might not be
| relevant. Paired with the battery degradation in cold
| climates...
|
| I also don't see much reason to buy a Tesla in 2025. There
| are better quality interiors for less money. The only thing
| Tesla has going for them is acceleration (if you pay!) and
| that is only relevant on a racetrack to push the car to
| it's limits. Any normal EV is plenty quick for daily
| driving.
| sz4kerto wrote:
| I've looked around (Europe), and there's nothing
| comparable at the price, except maybe Ioniq (but I didn't
| like the ergonomics, not saying it's objectively bad,
| just didn't fit me). Kia is way more expensive,
| Volkswagen is way more expensive at the same trim level,
| etc.
| csa wrote:
| > The only thing Tesla has going for them is acceleration
| (if you pay!)
|
| Tesla base (no extra cost) acceleration is _really good_
| for anyone but speed junkies. I've had plenty of people
| (non-gear heads, non-speed junkies) white knuckle when I
| showed them what my model y is capable of.
|
| The best part is that the acceleration is punchy all the
| way from 0 to about 105-110mph.
|
| Other than that, I think the "religious wars" over Teslas
| give folks a warped view of reality. My comments to
| anyone who is thinking of getting one:
|
| - Test drive one for yourself -- this will be the most
| telling. Sometimes the showroom will let you borrow one
| over night. I knew I was getting mine after about 2
| minutes of a test drive.
|
| - Learn about the controls. Reading the manual helps when
| you get one... there are tons of cool, functional
| features.
|
| - Try to go in with an open-but-critical mind. If you
| test drive with an overly negative disposition, you will
| almost certainly hate it. If you go in with an overly
| positive disposition, you will be blind to potential
| faults (e.g., for me, a yoke steering wheel that some
| models have is a no-go).
|
| Note that refreshed model y is coming out in May or so,
| and it seems like the options they chose are fairly
| optimized.
| f001 wrote:
| Or live somewhere with no weather and moderate temperatures
| so no need for any of them minus the turn signals. It's my
| pet theory of why tesla's auto wiper setting is so bad:
| they're located somewhere without rain/snow or without
| varying amounts of rain/snow.
| csa wrote:
| > Windshield wipers, turn signal, heat?
|
| On my model y and (I think) the new model y releasing in
| May:
|
| 1. Physical controls (stalk button and scroll wheel)
|
| 2. Stalk
|
| 3. Voice or top level of screen, although the auto-temp is
| good for me 99% of the time
|
| The extent to which some folks fixate on these issues (at
| least for the model y) makes me think "religious war" or
| "neurodivergent". It's unnecessary fear-mongering.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| You are severely misinformed. Heat is a finger flick away.
| Rest are physical controls.
| porphyra wrote:
| Wipers have physical controls on the wheel/stalk.
|
| You never need to touch the AC controls when driving thanks to
| auto mode. In the worst case you can use voice control, which
| you can again trigger from a physical control.
|
| The 3D visualization is completely separate from the code that
| actually runs FSD, auto park, and other driver assist features,
| so just because it shows something wonky like a motorbike
| doesn't mean that it's what the car "thinks" it is.
| ForTheKidz wrote:
| For those of us who don't own a tesla, what on earth is "auto
| mode"?
| porphyra wrote:
| You set the temperature and the hvac adjusts the fan speed
| and turns on the air conditioner or heating as needed.
|
| Honestly, after setting my car to my preferred temperature
| months ago, I never had to touch the hvac ever since. No
| idea why people keep wanting to fiddle with theirs.
| cpursley wrote:
| Ah, so just as terrible as auto mode home thermostats. I
| miss the days of simple rotary dials where you twist to
| the temp you want right now then forget.
| AngryData wrote:
| That is one of my most hated features of modern cars.
| People don't feel hot or cold based just on ambient
| temperature, and everything with auto controls makes
| "blow hot air" far more complicated than just turning a
| knob.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| No it doesn't. Flick your finger and it's colder. Stop
| your narrative...
|
| I do need to control it depending if it's sunny or
| cloudy. Otherwise it is perfect.
| AngryData wrote:
| It hasn't been that easy in any car ive used. Maybe yours
| is different, but it is far from average.
| neogodless wrote:
| The car knows better than you what you want your climate
| settings to be.
| al_borland wrote:
| This is one of the main reasons I don't think I'd buy a Tesla.
| Even the car I have now, I bought at the end of a model year,
| before a major redesign, because a lot of tactile controls were
| going away.
|
| I really dislike using a touch screen while driving, as it
| makes me take my eyes off the road more than I'd like. I also
| just like how physical controls feel and make more sense. I was
| gifted the book, The Design of Everyday Things by Donald
| Norman, back in college and it really stuck with me how
| unintuitive many physical controls are in cars, as well as
| poorly designed doors on/in buildings (Norman doors as they are
| often called, in honor of the book).
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| That book is incredible...
|
| https://youtu.be/QEE_-C0Nwjw?si=wZsabQ_0cqGlxORL
| anon373839 wrote:
| Teslas are 100% about cost-cutting. Flimsy, cheap,
| uncomfortable - but they do make those goofy spaceship noises!
| The lack of normal knobs, buttons, and stalks is just more of
| the cost-cutting.
|
| It baffles me that they were ever considered "luxury" cars
| except as to price.
| api wrote:
| Tesla's claim to fame _was_ being the longest range fastest
| EVs. They were pioneers in this era. Then they started
| investing in weird niche vehicles like the Cybertruck and
| dubious AI stuff instead of improving their regular cars, and
| the rest of the auto industry caught up with EVs.
|
| Not surprisingly, companies that have been making cars
| forever are pretty good at making cars. Cars have always been
| a very competitive market, so you didn't have the kind of
| absolute stagnation you see in some other industries. Tesla
| just gave them a kick in the butt to make electric cars.
| anon373839 wrote:
| > Tesla's claim to fame was being the longest range fastest
| EVs
|
| That's true, and they are insanely fast. But I will never
| forget when the Model S was released and was competing
| against flagships like the 7 series and S class. When I
| tried one out, my overwhelming first impression was: this
| is it? And that was 2012. And it's still basically the same
| car!
| api wrote:
| I've heard it described as the most advanced drive train
| in the world with the body of a 1990s Kia on top.
| jjav wrote:
| But a 1990s Kia had proper physical controls for
| everything.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Tesla is premium segment. Stop spreading misinformation.
|
| Sit in a Toyota and you'll understand what is cheap.
| eitland wrote:
| People still choose to drive around in 20 or 30 year old
| Toyotas.
|
| If price and fuel wasn't a consideration (diesel cars and
| fuel have crazy taxes around here) I'd end with Toyota
| 10/10 times.
| bdangubic wrote:
| I own two Teslas and they are great! But definitely not
| premium. you are paying for brand, they are "premium" only
| because people have been willing to pay high price for a
| brand. car itself is as far for premium as it gets compared
| to other actual premium cars in the same price range
| Lio wrote:
| I'm sure not you're really describing the premium segment.
|
| I'll take a Toyota Century over a Tesla any day of the
| week.
| beezlewax wrote:
| It really isn't
| Diti wrote:
| It really is. I don't know what kind of electric vehicles
| you have been using, but the Renault Zoe, Peugeot E-308,
| and Hyundai IONIQ I've been using before Teslas are a
| PAIN to use and recharge (especially the Peugeot). Tesla
| still (unfortunately) is years ahead because of the
| Superchargers. The competition needs to step up.
| forgetfreeman wrote:
| Sit in a VW Golf for a minute and then tell me more about
| how premium Tesla is. It is bizarre how polished the
| ergonomics and interior fit and finish is, especially given
| the price.
| msy wrote:
| I mean the price is but the fit and finish is offensively
| bad for the money vs a BMW/Merc/Lexus/Volvo.
| joshribakoff wrote:
| I am lemoning my second Tesla in a couple hours. Part of
| the criteria was that they have attempted to fix rattles
| and squeaks multiple times and the issues keep returning
| and they keep causing additional issues when they attempt
| to repair the original issue. The vehicle keeps also
| falling apart. The wheel covers keep falling off because
| the clips keep breaking, even though there has been no
| damage that should have caused it. On the previous one they
| were about seven or eight repair attempts for the window
| failing to roll up so I was unable to secure the vehicle
| and they kept failing to provide loaners when it was in for
| service.
|
| By the way, if you would like to lemon your Tesla, please
| read your purchase agreement for the email to send your
| request. You get back all of the interest, payments, tax,
| registration and everything.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Tesla is excellent, what are you on about?
|
| I had a chance to drive MB van recently. Steering wheel has 12
| buttons with 28 positions. It was a nightmare. CarPlay maps are
| garbage. Changing radio station was 4 swipes and taps on
| touchscreen. Jerking off little joystick to navigate over
| complex menu's is far worse than 1 tap on touchscreen.
|
| Buttons vs touchscreen isn't the problem, it's how they are
| implemented.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Does this mean they've given up dissolving infotainment(nav) into
| the rest of the car as a product? Or something else?
| thih9 wrote:
| I don't think anyone ever wished for non-physical controls.
|
| I can understand them in phones, tablets or other small and
| generic devices, trading ergonomy for portability; the net effect
| on UX could be positive. But in the context of cars (i.e. large
| and specialized) I see only net negative UX.
| Vinnl wrote:
| Presumably like other auto makers will also do, with Euro NCAP
| giving lower ratings to those who don't?
|
| https://arstechnica.com/cars/2024/03/carmakers-must-bring-ba...
| porphyra wrote:
| Yeah people are acting like car manufacturers have turned over
| a new leaf when in fact they are just gaming the regulations as
| usual.
| alberth wrote:
| Years ago I had a Saab.
|
| Everything was a button/knob.
|
| Probably the best car instrument panel I've ever used/seen.
|
| https://i0.wp.com/saabblog.net/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sa...
| lb1lf wrote:
| And night mode! A killer feature I've missed on any car I've
| driven since.
|
| (Quite simple - kills all instrument lights except speedo. If
| something happens which requires your attention, the relevant
| instrument comes back to life. Makes driving in the dark much
| less exhausting)
| alberth wrote:
| I totally forgot about that, yes - was amazing!
|
| IIRC, the instrument panel was design by Saab aerospace
| division.
| dismalaf wrote:
| Saabs had amazing design, especially the interior "cockpit".
| Miss them.
| b0ner_t0ner wrote:
| SAAB (Svenska Aeroplan AB) started out making airplanes.
| dismalaf wrote:
| I'm aware. And they still make planes.
| abruzzi wrote:
| I don't know if they still do it, but I loved my old Saab 99
| with the ignition switch in the console between the front
| seats. Intead of locking the steering, it locked the
| gearshift in reverse. It didn't make anything work better,
| but it made the end user experience feel different/special.
| gloxkiqcza wrote:
| It was sometimes mocked but I actually really like the 1st gen
| Porsche Panamera center console full of buttons as well
|
| https://cdn.elferspot.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/10/16/ABE8...
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| Amen. And if anybody mocks my Gen2 Macan with 100+ physical
| buttons and controls within reach of the driver, they will
| get mocked _right the fuck back._
| m000 wrote:
| Early '00s was the peak of car dashboard UX. After that it has
| been mostly regressions, sold as "innovation".
| pjmlp wrote:
| Finally!
|
| At least in Europe most Ford models also have kept most of their
| physical buttons.
| throw7 wrote:
| I also don't want huge monitors. Hopefully the return of buttons
| and dials reduces those console monstrosities.
| whoitwas wrote:
| Thank fuck. A company actually responds to demand instead of
| forcing the most profitable solution onto consumers. It's how
| markets can work if we let them.
| timbit42 wrote:
| No. It is responding to regulation.
| whoitwas wrote:
| It's smart regulation. The article suggests it's in response
| to consumer demand.
| nsbk wrote:
| Nice! I drive a 2005 Audi with all physical controls. I intend to
| keep it for as long as it keeps running, so if the trend
| continues and more manufacturers join it I may be able to skip
| the whole huge touchscreen madness altogether
| interloxia wrote:
| I like the touch sensitive controls on my ID4. It's a bit better
| than some of the "real" buttons on the steering wheel on some of
| their older cars which were terrible to use. I get the hate but I
| find it a bit one sided.
|
| That said. It would have been nice if they had made the plastic a
| bit more premium. The cheap shiny chreaking plastic isn't great.
| The redeeming feature is the swipe feature for me.
|
| Good buttons will be better.
|
| Cheap plastic crap will review well but won't necessarily be any
| better to use for me, at least for the steering column buttons.
| larusso wrote:
| Back in 2021 this was the major reason to not go for a VW but a
| Skoda. The ID.4 has these ugly touch buttons on the steering
| wheel and even for the window controls. Skoda uses the same tech
| but combined with oldschool buttons. They have kept the skoda
| like third column stock for the cruise control. Still not perfect
| mind you. Modern cars have so many settings and knobs and
| features. Don't get me started on EU regulations that have to be
| implemented but are guarded by model year. Example: I can
| permanently turn off the warning sound in case I'm driving over
| the speed limit in my car. Newer cars are required to reset
| everytime the car starts. Same for settings like driving modes.
| But that all depends on the model year. Since its software they
| could roll this out to older models. It makes it a weird
| experience when driving a newer model which suddenly doesn't
| remember its settings ;)
| sorenjan wrote:
| I think people here should look up a video of Xiaomi SU7 (for
| instance Doug DeMuro's [0]) They have a big touch screen, but
| they also have an option of attaching a row of physical buttons
| underneath, for those who want it. It seems like an overall very
| good car for a reasonable price, and really shows quite well how
| overvalued Tesla is. Xiaomi announced that they would start
| making cars in 2021, in 2024 they sold 135 000 SU7.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX3rRntdyYc
| karmakaze wrote:
| The physical buttons are so flat and edgeless (except for the
| raised 3-across row), it's like their listening but not
| understanding.
|
| 'Apple' aesthetic is the worst thing to have happened to
| industrial design.
| instagib wrote:
| Next get rid of glass roofs or option them out.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| How about no?
|
| Does no work?
|
| Fine, it's settled, no it is.
| mobilene wrote:
| I own a 2024 VW Jetta GLI. The haptic steering-wheel "buttons"
| are sloppy and uncertain. I applaud the return to real buttons.
|
| At least my GLI has a physical volume knob and physical heater
| controls.
| hinkley wrote:
| The main thing that kept me from getting an Ioniq was the stupid
| display and no buttons. If it had been cheaper I would have
| gotten it anyway, but the pundits guessed the sticker price about
| 10% low and I was not going to bother paying more than I had
| anticipated and deal with UX rage every time I drove my vehicle.
|
| For some of us a car ride is how we zen out. If you make them
| anti-zen you will lose customer goodwill.
|
| I'm still a little mad at VW for dieselgate but real buttons puts
| them back on the list.
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