[HN Gopher] Anime fans stumbled upon a mathematical proof
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Anime fans stumbled upon a mathematical proof
        
       Author : classichasclass
       Score  : 481 points
       Date   : 2025-03-06 16:37 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.scientificamerican.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.scientificamerican.com)
        
       | layer8 wrote:
       | Previous discussions:
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18292061
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23968618
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39325146
       | 
       | See also:
       | 
       | https://mathsci.fandom.com/wiki/The_Haruhi_Problem
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpermutation#Lower_bounds,...
        
         | Izkata wrote:
         | The image in the upper-right of the Fandom link was how it was
         | posted in the 4chan thread, little disappointing it's left out
         | of most posts about it.
         | 
         | The character is actually from _Steins;Gate_ , not _The
         | Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya_ : https://steins-
         | gate.fandom.com/wiki/Kurisu_Makise
        
           | Hamuko wrote:
           | Kurisu in front of a whiteboard with "You should be able to
           | solve this" is a fairly famous post format.
           | 
           | https://www.google.com/search?udm=2&q=%22You%20should%20be%2.
           | ..
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Wow I had no idea. Thanks! Macroexpanded:
         | 
         |  _Unscrambling the hidden secrets of superpermutations_ -
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39325146 - Feb 2024 (8
         | comments)
         | 
         |  _Mystery math whiz and novelist advance permutation problem_ -
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36191831 - June 2023 (92
         | comments)
         | 
         |  _An Anonymous 4chan Post Helped Solve a 25-Year-Old Math
         | Puzzle (2018)_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23968618
         | - July 2020 (7 comments)
         | 
         |  _Nobody knows how to cite 4chan mathematicians who solved an
         | interesting problem_ -
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18292061 - Oct 2018 (198
         | comments)
         | 
         | If anyone can find other threads in this set, let me know and
         | I'll add them here.
        
           | nash wrote:
           | I hope there is a specific order we should look at these
           | threads.
        
             | shric wrote:
             | You can read them in any order
        
               | jeanlucas wrote:
               | Oh no
        
               | app13 wrote:
               | Fear not, there is a handy proof we can use here...
        
             | yccs27 wrote:
             | Let's try them all and see which order is the best.
        
       | nazgulsenpai wrote:
       | It could have been a mathematician , you never know with that
       | Anon guy.
        
         | hiccuphippo wrote:
         | If they were mathematicians, they would have published it, no?
        
           | groby_b wrote:
           | Maybe. Writing a publication is a lot more work than a post
           | on 4chan, even if it's a good post.
           | 
           | If it's not your field you might well not bother to write the
           | paper. (After all, it's not your field, somebody might have
           | solved it since it didn't seem _that_ hard, and do you really
           | want to do an exhaustive literature research for a fun puzzle
           | you worked out?)
        
           | Barrin92 wrote:
           | A chess club I played at was frequented by a guy who used to
           | work as mathematician but got fed up by it at some point and
           | started to work as a chess trainer. Still did maths and
           | blogged regularly but never bothered to publish academic
           | work.
           | 
           | There's a lot of people like that in maths. Very talented but
           | dropping in and out of it or doing it recreationally.
        
             | rincebrain wrote:
             | I think Grigori Perelman, who solved the Poincare
             | conjecture and declined the Fields medal and Millennium
             | prize money for it, then said he has retired from
             | professional mathematics to avoid the fame, might qualify
             | as the most famous in recent memory.
        
               | forgotpwd16 wrote:
               | Interestingly, his seminal papers on (alongside other
               | major contributions) solving the Poincare conjecture
               | weren't published in a journal but were simply uploaded
               | on arXiv. Moreover, similar to GP's mathematician may
               | say, Grigori quit professional mathematics not just to
               | avoid fame but also due to disappointment over the field
               | ethics.
        
           | notpushkin wrote:
           | Even without considering the reasons already mentioned...
           | isn't it more _fun_ to be cited as an Anonymous 4chan poster?
        
         | VVilhelmsen wrote:
         | Well it was posted on the science and math board so there's a
         | good chance. Headline is a bit clickbaity
        
       | tocs3 wrote:
       | I have, for a long time, dismissed Scientific American as a
       | pointless work of marketing. This article, on the other hand,
       | makes me think I may be missing some things. The problem is
       | stated in an interesting way that might be broadly understood and
       | enjoyed. It gives some results that are explained well and easily
       | understood. It also leaves some open questions that can be
       | explored, letting the explorer dream about settling some famous
       | open problem. The perfect sort of thing for high school math (and
       | an old guy killing some time).
       | 
       | Thank you Manon Bischoff (author), Daisy Yuhas (editor), and
       | Scientific American for giving me this to think about.
        
         | tombert wrote:
         | I've never really done it at any advanced level, but I think
         | good "science communication for the masses" is just a _really_
         | hard problem. I say that because it seems like there 's an
         | overwhelming amount of really bad science communication out
         | there.
         | 
         | You have creators like Veratasium on YouTube, who I think do
         | really great jobs making a lot of science and mathematical
         | topics interesting to nearly everyone, but there's also a lot
         | of articles that are either very boring, incorrect,
         | overpromising, or some combination of the three.
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | My main issue is when the author assumes the reader knows
           | much more about a topic and just glosses over salient details
           | on that assumption. It's not necessarily intentional by the
           | author, and is more of an editorial problem. When you're
           | speaking with someone or a group, you can see the looks on
           | people's faces if you're losing them, or they interrupt
           | asking for more details. In a written piece, that is not
           | possible and a target base level needs to be set with details
           | for that level to follow along. It's up to the editor to go
           | back to the author for that information if things are being
           | glossed over.
        
             | ziddoap wrote:
             | https://xkcd.com/2501/
        
             | tombert wrote:
             | It's a fine art; if you were to go into detail about every
             | single thing mentioned by your article, your article would
             | be hundreds of pages long and probably a pretty boring and
             | dry read, but if you don't go into enough detail you risk
             | it being difficult for most of the population.
             | 
             | I agree it's up to the editor to figure out where to draw
             | that line, and a lot of them aren't terribly good at that.
        
           | JTbane wrote:
           | > I think good "science communication for the masses" is just
           | a really hard problem.
           | 
           | Not only is it hard, but there are tons of examples of hoaxes
           | that spread like wildfire. The latest I can remember were the
           | room-temperature superconductor papers.
        
             | tombert wrote:
             | Yeah, I'm still disappointed by that one. I was super
             | excited by the LK99 stuff; I don't know if that was a
             | "hoax", but it was definitely bad science that took the
             | media by storm.
             | 
             | I think that the problem is that there's effectively an
             | infinite amount of science and it changes and updates all
             | the time, so it's impossible to be truly "caught up" with
             | everything, and most studies are already in pretty specific
             | niche subjects that require a lot of understanding on that
             | niche subject. Most people doing science communication
             | can't possibly learn it all, and most certainly aren't
             | equipped to call out fraud of bad science in a paper, so
             | they have to take the papers at their word.
             | 
             | I mean, before I dropped my PhD, I was studying formal
             | methods in computer science. I got reasonably good with
             | state machine models in Isabelle, so you'd think I'd be
             | competent with "formal methods" as a concept, but not
             | really. If I were try and read a paper on, I don't know,
             | "Cubic Type Theory with Agda", I would have to do a _lot_
             | of catching up, almost starting from scratch, and I think I
             | 'm probably better equipped than the average software
             | engineer for that. Even if I got to a state of more-or-less
             | understanding it, I would certainly not be equipped to call
             | out bad science or math or fraud or anything like that.
        
         | 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
         | I used to be a subscriber for years a long time ago. I'm not
         | sure where you got this opinion unless you are basing things on
         | recent years. There was always something interesting in them.
        
           | kelipso wrote:
           | It's kind of the default opinion in academia. Same goes for
           | most popsci stuff I guess.
        
           | tocs3 wrote:
           | I used to enjoy the magazine and am basing my negative
           | opinion (expressed above) on reading experience on more
           | recent readings. I used to enjoy the amateur scientist and
           | mathematical recreation the most. Then those sections
           | disappeared. I have not been reading it recently so maybe
           | things have changed some.
        
             | wrs wrote:
             | You are not wrong. Check the archives before the 2000s and
             | it's a very different magazine. A while back, the editorial
             | direction changed. It used to be aimed at scientists who
             | might be in a different field from the article, or
             | amateurs/nonscientists who were at that level. Then it
             | became more for nonscientists who are somewhat interested
             | in the topic. The new editors seemed to wish it was
             | Discover magazine, and now it basically is.
             | 
             | Bear in mind this is a magazine that published complete
             | plans for building an argon laser in your garage. Including
             | the glassblowing.
        
               | 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
               | I only had a subscription during the early 2000s. I think
               | it was still a good magazine. There were still some
               | interesting articles and things to learn.
        
             | 2muchcoffeeman wrote:
             | Yes, I fully agree. It's 2025 now, so it's actually been
             | bad for a while.
             | 
             | I do sometimes wonder if I should get a current
             | subscription to get access to the archive though.
        
           | sumtechguy wrote:
           | Sometimes magazines change management/ownership/other. On the
           | outside they look similar but they lose that 'something' that
           | made them interesting to read. For example For me this
           | happened with both Dr. Dobbs and MSJ (renamed to MSDN). Both
           | had large management changes and became very quickly
           | something else. Not nearly as engaging or interesting. I
           | realized I had not looked at either in a year. Skimmed them
           | for anything I wanted to read and found nothing. I dropped
           | the sub.
        
         | fastball wrote:
         | Eh, this is kinda blogspam. It's been well-covered by others in
         | the past.
        
       | tombert wrote:
       | There's something unbelievably funny to me that actual
       | mathematical papers have to cite a 4chan post.
       | 
       | It does make me wonder how much hidden knowledge is hidden in
       | parts of the internet; maybe this is the only genius mathematical
       | thing we've _found_ on 4chan...
        
         | bloomingkales wrote:
         | If you were to ask an LLM trained on just scientific data to
         | solve this problem, it would either solve it really quickly
         | because it has seemingly irrelevant 4chan data or it would not
         | solve it at all. It's _a_ argument against non-general LLMs,
         | and very low-key shout out to liberal arts degrees.
        
         | dylan604 wrote:
         | > It does make me wonder how much hidden knowledge is hidden in
         | parts of the internet
         | 
         | That was the shining hope of the internet. "Information wants
         | to be free" and now it could be available to anyone with a
         | modem vs just in university or municipal libraries. Now, we
         | have megasites that dominate the web's attention with very
         | trivial and banal content that makes looking for that
         | information nearly impossible.
        
           | acureau wrote:
           | Well, it's not as if that promise didn't come true. We do
           | have the world's knowledge at our fingertips. It's more of a
           | curation problem, and a natural result of a decentralized
           | web. Wikipedia could be considered a "megasite", but I'd
           | argue it's more valuable than a million independent sites.
        
             | tombert wrote:
             | Yeah that's kind of what I was getting at.
             | 
             | Who knows what kind of weird mathematical or scientific
             | things have been discovered by hobbyists and posted on some
             | obscure forum thread or abandoned blog that wasn't
             | appreciated by anyone?
             | 
             | Like, if someone had a proof for the Goldbach Conjecture,
             | and for whatever reason posted about it on the WatchUSeek
             | forums (just as a throwaway example), it could just lay
             | dormant for who knows how long? The audience on WatchUSeek
             | might not realize the significance of a such a discovery,
             | and maybe not even the poster, so it doesn't get any
             | recognition and just never gets picked up.
             | 
             | I mean, going with the example in the original post, I
             | don't know much about Superpermutations (only a little
             | _after_ this post went viral), so if I had seen this 4chan
             | post in the wild, I would just assume it 's some guy doing
             | a bit of math that I wasn't familiar with. I wouldn't be
             | able to spot that this was actually a _contribution_ to
             | anything.
        
               | bee_rider wrote:
               | Is it better if there are lots of hidden gems tucked away
               | on obscure websites? Actually I think that is a sort of
               | interesting question. The world is a more interesting
               | place if there are hidden bits I guess. And there will be
               | some hidden pieces of info, so maybe it is good if
               | there's enough out there to incentivize exploration.
               | 
               | On the other hand, it is nice and convenient if
               | everything is indexed.
               | 
               | I dunno. Conflicted.
        
               | dylan604 wrote:
               | It's kind of like that one scroll tucked away in some
               | catacomb which nobody has looked at for hundreds of years
               | that has the one bit of information that answers so many
               | questions. The information is technically there, but you
               | first need to know where to look. Discovery is always a
               | problem.
        
               | wombatpm wrote:
               | Just to clarify: all perpetual motion machine videos on
               | TikTok are fake or using the stored energy of magnets
               | over time.
        
               | johnnyanmac wrote:
               | Pretty sure if anyone found true perpetual motion that
               | I'd be hearing about it all month on HN. It'd be a
               | discovery on the level of Newton's laws.
        
               | dylan604 wrote:
               | This is how I feel about AI/LLM discussions, except it's
               | all a perpetual motion machine demo that people _are_
               | falling for it. Kind of like crypto
        
               | crummy wrote:
               | But Copilot exists and people seem to be happy to pay for
               | it.
        
               | DrillShopper wrote:
               | (Some) people are also happy to pay to have someone piss
               | on them, too. Do you think Microsoft should offer a
               | Golden Shower tier of Copilot, complete with Trickle
               | Down?
        
               | notpushkin wrote:
               | I'm sure that's negotiable in their Enterprise offerings.
        
               | tombert wrote:
               | They already have this service, it's called "CosmosDB".
        
               | tombert wrote:
               | Oh, to be clear, there's a _lot_ of bullshit on the
               | internet, that might be the majority of stuff on the
               | internet. Perpetual motion stuff is an example of
               | bullshit.
               | 
               | Still, I do wonder what cool (and real) stuff on the
               | internet that people don't really know about is actually
               | significant.
        
               | moi2388 wrote:
               | Which is strange, because it's rather trivial. You make
               | your machine inside out. Now the entire universe is on
               | the inside of it, so all energy it gets from external
               | sources is technically on the inside.
        
           | arkh wrote:
           | The worst are the information blackholes created by apps like
           | Discord or Slack.
           | 
           | Lot of technical communities are there nowadays, lot of ideas
           | are just out of view from anything public.
        
             | h2zizzle wrote:
             | One must hope that the spirit that compells malicious
             | actors to archive private p*rn Discord servers on a
             | publicly-accessible site eventually finds itself to people
             | with access to technical servers. I get that everyone wants
             | their secret hangout, but not everything needs to be a SCIF
             | wannabe. Publish those logs.
        
         | ziddoap wrote:
         | Not only cite, but listed as the first author!
         | 
         | https://oeis.org/A180632/a180632.pdf
        
         | thomassmith65 wrote:
         | TO BE OR NOT TO BE THAT IS THE GGGZORNONPLATT
        
           | selimthegrim wrote:
           | Zalgo, your parole is still in effect.
        
         | ydnaclementine wrote:
         | you mean unbelievably based
        
         | bawolff wrote:
         | I always found it interesting how serious computer security
         | papers commonly cite random stuff on the internet.
         | 
         | Phrack probably has hundreds or maybe thousands of citations to
         | it at this point.
        
         | Oarch wrote:
         | I recommend watching the Internet Historian's video series on
         | He Will Not Divide Us for similarly ingenious buffoonery.
        
           | kikokikokiko wrote:
           | The He Will Not Divide Us saga teached me, really early, to
           | never leave any personal information on the web, and above
           | all, to never piss off groups of male teenagers/early adults
           | with a lot of free time on their hands and a penchant for
           | doing anything for the lolz.
        
             | pelagicAustral wrote:
             | "male teenagers/early adults", pretty big assumption there.
        
         | anal_reactor wrote:
         | Not many, probably. As in, why would this happen.
        
           | iforgotpassword wrote:
           | Because why would you think this is of any relevance? You're
           | making some estimate and go like "welp I guess that's good
           | enough" and assume that there must be a proper mathematical
           | approach to this.
        
             | anal_reactor wrote:
             | Yes but if you have the skills to do something like that,
             | then you're probably aware that this is a new solution to a
             | problem.
        
         | ErigmolCt wrote:
         | What other accidental discoveries are buried in meme threads
         | and forgotten forums?
        
         | Cthulhu_ wrote:
         | What comes to mind is TempleOS, I'm confident there's a lot of
         | really interesting code decisions and algorithms in there.
         | 
         | Of course the other factor is your own comprehension powers; I
         | can't comprehend math or complex algorithms, so I don't
         | actually know if there are any that I could apply to my usual
         | software development problems.
         | 
         | (I doubt it, it's high level front end stuff, all the complex
         | bits are lower down)
        
           | tombert wrote:
           | I asked a question years ago about trying to make a "real"
           | operating system out of TempleOS [1], because I agree there's
           | probably some more to it than just a meme.
           | 
           | I don't know enough about operating systems to really know if
           | there's anything clever in there, but that gets to your
           | point; part of the issue comes down to the ability to
           | understand what you're reading, as you pointed out.
           | 
           | If I had seen the original 4chan post back when it was new, I
           | wouldn't have thought much of it, because I don't know
           | anything about superpermutations or combinatorics. If I had
           | seen the post, I would have thought "oh there's some math I
           | never learned, cool" and moved on, not realizing its
           | significance.
           | 
           | [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14075795
        
       | Modified3019 wrote:
       | Non-paywall link: https://archive.is/i140b
        
       | _trampeltier wrote:
       | Should not the de Bruijn sequence work somehow for this problem?
       | 
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_sequence
        
         | ball_of_lint wrote:
         | That would give you some string that contains all the
         | permutations, but definitely not the shortest such string.
        
       | AdmiralAsshat wrote:
       | Loath as I am to give 4chan credit for anything positive, I feel
       | like the article subject is slightly dismissive with its use of
       | the phrase "stumbled upon." The anonymous 4chan user clearly _did
       | the work_ , it's not as though they came upon a proof written in
       | the sand. For all we know it was a grad student with an ABD in
       | Statistics who just happened to like anime.
       | 
       | But the phrasing almost implies it's not a true accomplishment
       | because "scientists" didn't discover it.
        
         | asddubs wrote:
         | i took it to mean that they stumbled upon it in the sense that
         | they didn't try to make a novel contribution to the field of
         | mathematics or think they were doing that, but just solving a
         | specific problem
        
           | AdmiralAsshat wrote:
           | I suppose in my head, when the phrase "stumbled upon" is
           | used, it would imply that someone was solving a problem that
           | they weren't intending to solve, or via a method that they
           | weren't intending. A hypothetical headline might be "Food
           | scientist stumbles upon cure for cancer while refining
           | process for fish oil": the scientist wasn't _trying_ to solve
           | the problem of cancer, they were trying to solve the problem
           | of extending fish oil shelf-life, and incidentally found the
           | former.
           | 
           | But you would find it strange if the article said,
           | "Oncologist stumbles upon cure for cancer while testing new
           | colon cancer treatment." Because in that case, the scientist
           | is seemingly doing what he set out to do--it was not
           | unintentional.
           | 
           | It seems like the 4chan poster knew enough about mathematics
           | to recognize the stated problem as a mathematical problem and
           | write a proof for it. That already demonstrates a degree of
           | specialty and intention that makes "stumble upon" seem
           | dismissive, to me. The fact that they didn't know they were
           | solving a a more general, already-known problem is
           | irrelevant, IMO. It would almost be like denying them credit
           | because they didn't fill out the paperwork correctly.
        
             | Arnavion wrote:
             | "Stumbled upon" is used for mathematicians discovering
             | something by working it out all the time.
        
             | thaumasiotes wrote:
             | > But you would find it strange if the article said,
             | "Oncologist stumbles upon cure for cancer while testing new
             | colon cancer treatment." Because in that case, the
             | scientist is seemingly doing what he set out to do--it was
             | not unintentional.
             | 
             | I wouldn't really find that strange. Finding a cure for
             | cancer is not an expected outcome of testing a cancer
             | treatment and certainly isn't what the oncologist is trying
             | to do. It's directly related to what you _were_ trying to
             | do, and better, but it 's still a lucky find that you
             | weren't looking for.
        
               | johnnyanmac wrote:
               | I don't know how related colon cancer is to general
               | cancer treatment, but sure. If they end up making a
               | general formula while researching a specific one, many
               | people in the field would say they "stumled upon" gold.
               | Even if they were looking for silver to begin with.
        
               | thaumasiotes wrote:
               | > I don't know how related colon cancer is to general
               | cancer treatment
               | 
               | Doesn't matter; that's not relevant to my point. When we
               | attempt to find cancer treatments, we don't expect to
               | find cures. (That's why we say "treatments"!) The goal of
               | research into colon cancer is not to find a cure for
               | colon cancer. It's to get the amount of remission that
               | patients can expect to enjoy higher. Eliminating the
               | cancer entirely is a completely different kind of result,
               | and it would be the goal of a different kind of research.
        
         | hilsdev wrote:
         | 4chan has a large cesspit, but it gathers a lot of intelligent
         | people who can ignore the noise. For any interest, there's
         | someone somewhere who made a half decent thread on the topic.
         | There's decent barriers too (as in the less talked about boards
         | are more thoroughly moderated than the ones that make the news,
         | much like Reddit)
        
           | Der_Einzige wrote:
           | Shhh!!! Don't tell them that 4chan is the best origami/paper
           | craft website on the internet!
        
             | jjmarr wrote:
             | one letter off from the alt-right!
        
             | TyPepakura3 wrote:
             | They taught me how to model and how to transfer models to
             | pepakura. It's really amazing how everything was just in
             | place and you could ask a person something and have the
             | answer by the next day.
             | 
             | Reddit has shades of this, but it was never truly focused.
             | The upvote system kills small discussions.
        
           | rat9988 wrote:
           | Most popular websites gather a lot of intelligent people.
           | Nothing specific to 4chan.
        
             | johnnyanmac wrote:
             | 4chan was very early, if not close to first of what we'd
             | describe as a "forum" and persisted through the decades.
             | That's the notable factor, outside of all the "noise"
             | described above.
             | 
             | But yes, the noise was also a part of the surprise factor
             | here. Many people have this perception that intelligent
             | people are dignified, studious,and fancy in their demeanor.
             | So someone like that hanging out on an "anime forum" can be
             | shocking to some.
        
               | bawolff wrote:
               | > 4chan was very early, if not close to first of what
               | we'd describe as a "forum" and persisted through the
               | decades
               | 
               | That feels untrue. 4chan was launched only in 2003.
               | Forums are much older than that.
               | 
               | Especially if you count forum-like things that aren't
               | called forums, like usenet or bbs.
        
               | pimlottc wrote:
               | CompuServe used the term "forums" going back at least to
               | the late 1980s
        
               | extraduder_ire wrote:
               | It's a natural term to use for it. Since about the time
               | of the Romans.
        
               | dragonwriter wrote:
               | > That feels untrue. 4chan was launched only in 2003.
               | Forums are much older than that.
               | 
               | Web forums are basically as old as the web; I have
               | accounts that are older than 4chan on forums (what I
               | believe is the oldest forum that I have an account on,
               | which also has my oldest continuous forum account [though
               | not my _first_ forum account] launched in 1996 -- I didn
               | 't join until 2002.)
               | 
               | Online forums, more generally, are _older_ than the web,
               | whether you are talking about email listservers, nntp
               | groups, or CompuServe forums.
        
               | ryoshu wrote:
               | Usenet was great until the spammers arrived.
        
               | tstrimple wrote:
               | I've still found a lot of use for it from a "free
               | content" platform and haven't seen anything at all from
               | the spammers. Maybe it's a matter of the indexers I use?
               | What form does usenet spam take?
        
         | ecshafer wrote:
         | > Loath as I am to give 4chan credit for anything positive
         | 
         | Why, whats wrong with 4chan? Outside of /pol/ and /b/ its just
         | an image board with many different users.
        
           | lukas099 wrote:
           | Kinda with you, but outside of those two there is still a
           | bias towards antisemitism and misogyny among other uncouth
           | worldviews.
        
             | russelg wrote:
             | And those people are rightly called out as tourists, and
             | told to go back to the hole they came from.
        
               | tstrimple wrote:
               | Yes, once I was naive enough to believe that all the
               | 4chan regulars were just being ironic and it was just the
               | uninformed visitors who took the degeneracy seriously.
               | Unfortunately we all have to grow up at some point.
        
               | KennyBlanken wrote:
               | Ahem, you were bullshitting something?
               | 
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement
               | 
               | ...also, a _huge_ number of mass shooters have been 4chan
               | regulars...
        
           | TyPepakura3 wrote:
           | And /v/. Basically, if it would attract a child, it does, and
           | you stay away.
           | 
           | The issue is it's not a fun website. The creative spark is
           | gone.
        
           | KennyBlanken wrote:
           | Not even close. A long time ago I spent a decent amount of
           | time on 4chan and left because of the incessant bigotry,
           | which was pervasive.
        
         | onetimeusename wrote:
         | This story resurfaces every few years but the original post was
         | on the /sci/ board in 2011. That was a loooooong time ago and
         | although no one back then would have said 4chan was good (it
         | was never good), it also doesn't surprise me it was originally
         | posted there at that time. I don't think it would happen now.
        
           | johnnyanmac wrote:
           | 4chan was great, but it very much was one of the oldest
           | proprietors of the so called "normie filter". The biggest
           | most offensive boards caused 95% of the trouble the site is
           | known for.
           | 
           | the smaller boards and threads could get some interesting
           | stories and content (of all were of course, of reasonable
           | falseness and potential homosexuality). The vibe was fine as
           | long as you avoided the modern attitude and approach
           | everything with hostility. Unlike say, modern twitter,
           | everyone in 4chan was in agreement that they were full of
           | shit. It was never trying to be this platform of serious
           | debate. Understanding that ironically enough frees you of a
           | lot of inhibitions.
           | 
           | ----
           | 
           | All the "elites" were definitely gone by the middle of the
           | 2010's, though. Probably to less controversial and more
           | popular platforms. It's nearly impossible to replicate this
           | nowadays.
        
             | anal_reactor wrote:
             | 4chan became the normie
        
             | somenameforme wrote:
             | There's something great about enforced anonymity. It gets
             | rid of people saying what they _think_ they should say, and
             | instead simply what they think.
             | 
             | It reminds one of the wisdom of the masses experiments. If
             | you take a bunch of people and ask them how many peas are
             | in a jar, the average will come out _extremely_ close to
             | the right answer. But if you let those people collaborate,
             | debate, and try to pick the smartest answer - it tends to
             | be far less accurate.
             | 
             | It's part of the reason that I think decentralize
             | everything is the way to go. You'll never reach the utopic
             | highs that a perfect centralization might offer, but you'll
             | also never reach the dystopic lows that a flawed
             | centralization can impose.
        
               | tstrimple wrote:
               | > There's something great about enforced anonymity. It
               | gets rid of people saying what they think they should
               | say, and instead simply what they think.
               | 
               | No it absolutely does not. It enables people to hold
               | whatever positions are immediately expedient regardless
               | of personal beliefs. There is no way to call an anonymous
               | person a hypocrite when you cannot connect their directly
               | contradictory statements due to their anonymity. 4chan is
               | a perfect example of group think overriding other
               | opinions.
        
               | somenameforme wrote:
               | And does calling a person a hypocrite make them go 'Oh
               | gosh, you're right. Let me immediately change my
               | opinion.'? No, even the most justified ad hominem does
               | nothing more than encouraging self censorship, which is
               | completely contrary to what's desired when the goal is to
               | understand what people truly think and believe.
               | 
               | Humans are not consistent. We hold conflicting views, and
               | in a decade we'll think a good chunk of what we believe
               | today is idiotic. It's all fine and normal.
               | 
               | I would also add that in many cases claims of hypocrisy
               | are themselves somewhat disingenuous, because scarce (and
               | perhaps even undesirable) is the human that holds any
               | given view as absolute dogma. We all hold views and
               | values on a spectrum. For instance utilitarianism and
               | taking the 'intuitive' solution to the trolley problem
               | are not mutually exclusive, because one's adoption of
               | utilitarianism is often of the nature of simply generally
               | preferring utilitarian solutions, rather treating it as
               | the be all, end all, of decision making.
        
               | t-3 wrote:
               | So what? Hypocrisy is part of the human condition. We can
               | only rid ourselves of it by actually expressing and
               | exploring our true beliefs and reflecting on them in the
               | context of our actions. Carefully curating a public image
               | to match what the blob expects doesn't assist in that at
               | all.
        
             | KennyBlanken wrote:
             | The smaller boards still had plenty of racism, homophobia,
             | misogyny, etc. It's just that people went full Bigot on
             | /b/.
        
         | finnthehuman wrote:
         | >Loath as I am to give 4chan credit for anything positive
         | 
         | I love the fact we have somewhere unambiguously lowbrow on the
         | internet. It's fun to watch how highbrow places talk about it.
        
           | mjr00 wrote:
           | As the saying goes, most social media is stupid people
           | pretending to be smart; 4chan is smart people pretending to
           | be stupid.
        
             | lukas099 wrote:
             | I wouldn't say 4chan's smarter than other social media. I'd
             | say "stupid people not pretending".
        
               | fastball wrote:
               | The median user definitely seems smarter on 4chan (at
               | least that is how it felt 10-20 years ago).
        
               | tstrimple wrote:
               | I think median is the wrong term here. There are some
               | absolute freak geniuses on 4chan, but it's not the norm.
               | It's the exception. The median is just as fucking stupid
               | as they present themselves to be.
        
           | make3 wrote:
           | does it still exist? this is an old story
        
             | WJW wrote:
             | You can literally type in the url mate. Just go and check
             | for yourself instead of having to ask HN.
        
               | make3 wrote:
               | I mean, do people still use it in large amounts, is it
               | popular, don't be so literal
        
           | dokyun wrote:
           | implying hacker news is highbrow
        
             | seanw444 wrote:
             | I tend to enjoy the banter on 4chan more than here.
             | Everyone is expected to dish it and take it there. Peoples'
             | biases are obvious, because they make it clear who they
             | dislike fairly often. Nobody actually takes any real
             | offense to it all. It's quite pleasant compared to the
             | sanitized world of... literally anywhere else.
             | 
             | Of course, if seeing the N word makes you obsessively
             | clutch pearls, then it's not the place for you. If you can
             | let stuff roll right off you, it's fun, and there can be
             | dialogue of interest here and there. /g/ being most similar
             | to here, of course.
        
               | dokyun wrote:
               | An issue I have with imageboards is that use of images
               | invites low-effort posting because it makes it easy to be
               | as annoying as possible, whereas with pure text making
               | inflammatory remarks at least takes some forethought, and
               | it invites unique forms of creative writing. Anonymous
               | textboards I think have the best forms of banter, but
               | they're dying out these days. Over here people have
               | incentives to appease others by gathering upvotes, so
               | they feign this type of altruism that keeps them from
               | being too inflammatory and makes them resort to stupid
               | shit like tone indicators instead of being clever enough
               | to write it that way.
        
               | hatsunearu wrote:
               | My experience is that 4chan is obscure and annoying
               | enough to browse and participate that it keeps the lowest
               | of low effort posts down. Like if you look at websites
               | that are easy to participate, like Facebook or reddit,
               | you're just gonna see the worst of the worst.
        
               | seanw444 wrote:
               | The low-effort posting (AKA shitposting) is part of what
               | makes it great. It's kind of an acquired taste, but
               | there's a certain humor to it.
        
               | KennyBlanken wrote:
               | "If you can ignore the rampant homophobia, misogyny,
               | racism, organized harassment campaigns, doxxing, and high
               | level state official kidnapping conspiracies, it's a
               | great place to hang out!"
               | 
               | ...or I can just participate in communities which are
               | still plenty irreverent but doesn't have any of that?
               | 
               | Goddamn people - stop romanticizing 4chan or acting like
               | it somehow gives us something special or unique.
        
               | seanw444 wrote:
               | You just described why it's unique, and then claimed it's
               | not unique. It's clearly not your cup of tea.
        
           | KennyBlanken wrote:
           | You mean the place that has generated numerous mass shooters
           | and the "boogaloo movement" which among other things tried to
           | kidnap a governor?
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boogaloo_movement
        
       | votiv wrote:
       | @gwern was it you?
        
       | rootsudo wrote:
       | Woah, Haruhi is now considered classic.
        
         | trothamel wrote:
         | The anime will be 19 years old next month, so it's probably not
         | wrong to consider it such.
        
           | ziddoap wrote:
           | It reinforces that I'm getting old, though.
        
         | t-3 wrote:
         | Calling Haruhi classic isn't that bad - I've seen people on
         | this site referring to 2010s-era hardware as "retro".
        
           | cyborgx7 wrote:
           | When the AVGN started out, the SNES was roughly as old as the
           | PS3 is now.
        
             | HeckFeck wrote:
             | Didn't need to read that! I've often thought I will truly
             | feel my age when they start calling the Xbox 360 'retro'.
             | Not far off if we're not already there.
        
         | GolDDranks wrote:
         | It was a huge hit, and those tend to turn into classics with
         | age. Gotta admit that it's making me feel old.
        
       | bntyhntr wrote:
       | At one of my old jobs, the bathroom was locked with a 4 digit
       | code followed by the key symbol. We jokingly made up "Bathroom
       | Code" as an interview question/to nerd snipe each other instead
       | of working, which was "assuming you don't have to press key, and
       | that the bathroom door will unlock if the correct 4 digits are
       | entered in order at any time, write the code to print the
       | shortest possible test sequence to guarantee you entry".
       | Obviously we didn't give this to any candidates but it's amusing
       | to think that the problem is a lot more interesting than we gave
       | it credit for.
        
         | OscarCunningham wrote:
         | If the code is allowed repeats then the problem is much easier:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Bruijn_sequence.
        
           | Out_of_Characte wrote:
           | Superpermutation must repeat all possible combination in the
           | shortest number possible. De Bruijn sequence places a lower
           | bound on the length of superpermutations but shorter
           | sequences are possible. De bruijn is also cyclical, which
           | superpermutations in the literature are not.
        
         | slazaro wrote:
         | Given that you just care about 4 digit codes (so you don't
         | actually care about a generic algorithm that's not super slow
         | in asymptotic time), can't you just solve it with an easy to
         | code bruteforce algorithm? Or is the combinatorial explosion so
         | big that it's actually intractable that way?
        
           | dumbfounder wrote:
           | Think about this. You need to calculate the number of
           | permutation for 4 digit codes. Then you need to arrange them
           | in every order possible to brute force. So that's 4!!. That's
           | a lot: roughly 620000000000000000000000 combos.
        
             | genewitch wrote:
             | Or it's 10000?
        
               | SamBam wrote:
               | That's the number of possible codes. Not the number of
               | possible ways you could arrange all 10000 codes to see
               | which ordering contains the most shortcuts.
        
               | genewitch wrote:
               | i have a python script running through that right now to
               | find "the shortest" and it's been burning a single core
               | for at least 6 hours. So it looks like you are right and
               | i am wrong ;-)
               | 
               | i assume my pc on a single core can do ~1billion
               | permutations per second, this will take 19,647 millennia.
               | AFK.
               | 
               | what do you think the chances are, if i let this run,
               | that it would find a shorter solution than 625
               | keypresses? the naive De Bruijn algorithm popped that out
               | in like 2 seconds.
        
             | somenameforme wrote:
             | If you're not making some joke that I'm missing it's just
             | 10^4 = 10000, which is a just a fancier way of saying
             | 0000-9999.
        
               | fc417fc802 wrote:
               | 10^4 permutations. Which you then permute _again_ except
               | the second time you 're overlapping them to search for
               | the shortest possible sequence.
        
         | genewitch wrote:
         | You know Ford/Lincoln had those buttons / touch strip in the
         | door with the buttons labelled like [1|2] [3|4], and so on to
         | [9|0]?
         | 
         | There's a permutation list claimed to be the shortest that I
         | used to carry in my PDA to impress friends that had one of
         | those sorts of cars. If I recall, it was guaranteed to open the
         | door in something like 32 button presses, but it may have been
         | less.
         | 
         | It was because there was no "start" or stop to the sequence,
         | the computer would unlock if the sequence appeared intact
         | anywhere. So a code 3,4,5,6 would trigger with
         | 8,2,7,3,4,5,6,0,2
        
           | ChoGGi wrote:
           | And in other fun knowledge, the f150 2016 has no way to
           | disable that keypad. Short of taking apart the door and
           | disconnecting it.
        
           | lupire wrote:
           | 3+5 _4_ 3 _2=123, so 4 digit code would require at least 134
           | key presses.
           | 
           | Even 3 digit code would require over 60 keypresses.
           | 
           | We're there other constraints on valid codes?
           | 
           | Did the door unlock in a valid _non-consecutive* subsequence
           | like 3,4,5,0,6?
        
             | genewitch wrote:
             | No, but it would unlock with 3355 or 3455 or 3365 or 4466
             | or
             | 
             | there's 5 buttons, and the code is four of those 5 in an
             | arbitrary order. at least to my memory. it could have been
             | 5 buttons in an arbitrary order. It's been 20 years!
             | 
             | 5 pick 4 = 120, so that's an upper bound for my
             | recollection. I remember it being fewer than that, but the
             | original "paper" was a sheet of graph paper that had been
             | scanned, i just transcribed it to my palm pilot.
             | 
             | oh. It isn't 120 * 4 keypresses. Because the thing that
             | decided if the code was valid didn't have start/stop/reset
             | states, so 1234523413452 would trigger 1234, 2345, 3452,
             | 4523, 5234, 2341, 3413, 4134, 1345, and 3452. that would
             | take "40 keypresses" in the OP "game", whereas it only
             | takes 13 keypresses on these code pads.
             | 
             | so the paper was "an" shortest permutation that covered
             | every possible combination.
             | 
             | edit: python gave a 625 keypress answer, i replied to a
             | sibling with the full list of numbers.
        
           | windward wrote:
           | Is this a mean trick to snipe HN users into thinking about
           | algorithms for hours? I have a friend who wants to know.
        
             | genewitch wrote:
             | python assures me this is a valid solution:
             | 
             | >1112111311141115112211231124112511321133113411351142114311
             | 44114511521153115411551212131214121512221223122412251232123
             | 31234123512421243124412451252125312541255131314131513221323
             | 13241325133213331334133513421343134413451352135313541355141
             | 41514221423142414251432143314341435144214431444144514521453
             | 14541455151522152315241525153215331534153515421543154415451
             | 55215531554155522223222422252233223422352243224422452253225
             | 42255232324232523332334233523432344234523532354235524242524
             | 33243424352443244424452453245424552525332534253525432544254
             | 52553255425553333433353344334533543355343435344434453454345
             | 53535443545355435554444544554545555
             | 
             | 625(?) presses, i was way off. :-( It's still a lot fewer
             | than trying all 10,000 individual 4 digit possibilities
             | that the keypad implies are there.
             | 
             | Also this is possibly not the shortest, according to some
             | sibling comments to mine, above. This could be the upper
             | bound?
        
         | ErigmolCt wrote:
         | Funny how these kinds of "just messing around" problems
         | sometimes turn out to have deep mathematical roots
        
         | Cthulhu_ wrote:
         | I'm no mathematician or leetcode expert and probably don't
         | understand "shortest possible test sequence", but it sounds
         | like this is just bruteforcing 0000-9999. You can't guess what
         | would be closer to the correct solution, so at best I'd propose
         | making a list of choices and randomizing the tries in case you
         | get lucky.
         | 
         | It's different if the keypad gives an indication that one
         | number is correct though, then it'll be 40 tries at most.
        
           | fuglede_ wrote:
           | The point is that if you input, say, 00001, then you will
           | have tested both 0000 and 0001.
        
           | CJefferson wrote:
           | If the code is either 0000 or 0001, then entering 00001 will
           | open the door, as you just need the four digits in order.
           | 
           | That shows how you can do a shorter sequence by using
           | overlaps.
        
           | Biganon wrote:
           | Have you read the article we're commenting on? Obviously
           | mathematicians know that n! * k, with k the length of the
           | code, would work. The idea is to superpose the end of a code
           | with the start of the next, so you don't have to test nearly
           | as many combinations.
        
         | albrewer wrote:
         | > creat[e] a graph where each permutation is a vertex and every
         | permutation is connected by an edge. Each edge has a weight
         | associated with it; the weight is calculated by seeing how many
         | characters can be added to the end of one permutation (dropping
         | the same number of characters from the start) to result in the
         | other permutation. [...] Any Hamiltonian path through the
         | created graph is a superpermutation, and the problem of finding
         | the path with the smallest weight becomes a form of the
         | traveling salesman problem.
         | 
         | From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superpermutation
        
       | evanmoran wrote:
       | This is always how it works. Large fan bases are filled with
       | extremely capable people with vastly different specialties so I
       | have no doubt this 4chan user had a very strong math background
       | and just couldn't resist solving it for real.
        
       | trothamel wrote:
       | Oddly, the image that Scientific American chose to illustrate
       | their article isn't from any of the Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya
       | projects, but from Aokana - Four Rhythms Across the Blue, a much
       | more obscure title.
        
         | Frotag wrote:
         | Not to mention they occupy totally different mediums (anime vs
         | visual novel). Kind of like using a random movie cover when
         | you're talking about a music album.
        
           | windward wrote:
           | Both have anime adaptations, neither are anime original.
        
         | endless8 wrote:
         | They also close with an example for Harui's show and earlier
         | try to explain its premise too... Completely ignoring the fact
         | that fans don't care to watch the whole show in any order, but
         | only the "Endless 8", the 8 episodes actually stuck in a time
         | loop.
         | 
         | And even making an example out of 8 episodes would be stupid,
         | as the 8th episode in the Endless is meant to be the very final
         | piece of the loop. It's arguable for the very first, you could
         | in theory watch it out of order too, but it has the most setup
         | of the bunch.
         | 
         | So they only cared for the superpermutation of 6.
         | 
         | Critically abysmal research on the article's part.
        
           | prophesi wrote:
           | True to an extent; there's the broadcast order versus the
           | actual chronological order versus the source material order
           | that all differ a good bit[0]. Broadcast order being the main
           | outlier. It's an episodic series, with some that span more
           | than one episode, along with Endless Eight. If anything, I'd
           | say the permutations should be separated out by the first
           | season and the endless eight it encompasses, as there's no
           | sense in watching an endless eight episode in the midst of
           | the rest.
           | 
           | [0] https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JWY_VFaF_NAxlmPkY
           | sOA...
        
           | kyorochan wrote:
           | If you actually check out the original 4chan post you can
           | clearly see that it's about the first season. I'm not sure
           | where you got the idea that it should be about the Endless 8,
           | since you even admit yourself that it would make no sense.
        
           | Maken wrote:
           | The entire Haruhi series is famously randomly scrambled, so
           | neither it's airing order nor their episode number follow the
           | chronological order of events.
        
             | trothamel wrote:
             | It's been a while since I saw it, but from what I remember
             | the original airing was fairly intelligently scrambled. You
             | have a spine of episodes that consist of the original light
             | novel, which occur in the same order they did in that book.
             | This introduces the characters and the main plot, and ends
             | in a climax that has to be at the end.
             | 
             | You then have a series of one-shot stories from the books
             | (and one original episode contributed by the creator of
             | Full Metal Panic!) that get scattered throughout, as there
             | wasn't enough content for a full season, and it would be
             | weird to have the climax occur mid-season.
        
         | Two4 wrote:
         | You seem well versed in anime - can I give you a few math
         | proofs to work out?
        
       | lqet wrote:
       | I am not surprised that the author of this great article is Manon
       | Bischoff. I have been reading her articles on Spektrum.de for
       | years now, and they are always excellent. Here is a list of all
       | her articles:
       | https://www.spektrum.de/profil/bischoff/manon/1486871
       | 
       | Selected articles get translated and published by SciAm:
       | https://www.scientificamerican.com/author/manon-bischoff/
        
         | cloudbonsai wrote:
         | I am more surpised that the other amateur mathematian appearing
         | in this article is Greg Egan (He has a personal website on
         | https://www.gregegan.net/).
         | 
         | He is one of the best contemporary hard SF writers in the
         | world.
        
           | barbazoo wrote:
           | Wow. Any recommendation where to start?
        
             | jamiek88 wrote:
             | All of them but I personally love Permutation City.
        
               | lupire wrote:
               | Apropos to today's topic
        
               | barbazoo wrote:
               | thank you
        
             | asystole wrote:
             | Schild's Ladder is my personal favourite.
        
               | barbazoo wrote:
               | thank you
        
           | senderista wrote:
           | He also must be one of the best recreational mathematicians
           | in the world, as anyone who follows his work on his website
           | and Mastodon knows.
        
             | hackernewds wrote:
             | sometimes on HN, I cannot tell which posts are AstroTurfing
             | because the praise often is so niche and unrelated and
             | superlative
        
               | turtleyacht wrote:
               | Sometimes it's alright. I got motivated to dig and found
               | a list of Greg Egan's non-fiction books:
               | 
               | https://www.gregegan.net/BIBLIOGRAPHY/Bibliography.html#N
               | onF...
               | 
               | Waiting for the series _Winning Ways for Your
               | Mathematical Plays_ (various authors) gets a little
               | cheaper.
        
         | ErigmolCt wrote:
         | This is a talent to just make complex mathematical concepts
         | feel accessible and engaging. Also thanks for sharing the
         | links!
        
       | perching_aix wrote:
       | 2011 in the title would have been nice. Of course it's the Haruhi
       | problem.
        
         | asqueella wrote:
         | Surprisingly there's no explanation here or in the TFA of what
         | the problem actually is:
         | https://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/s/2nHDIOfnBX
        
           | SamBam wrote:
           | From TFA:
           | 
           | > If you want to watch a series in multiple arrangements--
           | perhaps to figure out which sequence of episodes makes the
           | most sense--you need a superpermutation. This is a sequence
           | of all possible permutations. Imagine a marathon showing
           | where you watch the first episode, followed by the second,
           | and then watch the second episode, followed by the first
           | (1-2-2-1). To avoid watching the second episode twice in a
           | row, a shorter superpermutation would be 1-2-1; you would
           | only have to watch three episodes to still have every
           | possible order covered.
           | 
           | > Mathematicians have also calculated the shortest
           | superpermutations for a series consisting of n = 4 and n = 5
           | episodes (33 and 153 episodes, respectively). Beyond that,
           | however, they are in the dark. The shortest superpermutations
           | for n > 5 are not known.
        
       | layman51 wrote:
       | It is funny that the article linked is from this month, but the
       | actual anonymous post seems to be from 2011, and it looks like
       | the research paper itself is from 2018.
        
         | fastball wrote:
         | Yeah, this has been fairly well-covered in the past, not sure
         | why they decided to re-hash now.
        
       | robswc wrote:
       | Yea, that absolutely checks out.
       | 
       | Being able to apply your work to something you enjoy is a
       | discipline and motivation multiplier.
        
       | throwaway81523 wrote:
       | "Permutate"?
        
         | userbinator wrote:
         | The opposite linguistic construction to an indention.
        
       | babuloseo wrote:
       | This was done by 4chan.
        
       | photonthug wrote:
       | Now with our new understandings of super permutations, perhaps
       | David Lynch's rabbits can finally make sense.
        
       | wut-wut wrote:
       | Missed an opportunity to mention she was a god and the episodes
       | were already out of order.
        
       | not2b wrote:
       | I was impressed with how tight the known bounds are. For length
       | 30, the upper bound is 1.0000397 times the lower bound. For 40
       | the ratio is 1.0000164 and it quickly approaches 1.
        
         | ErigmolCt wrote:
         | Makes me wonder if a full solution is just around the corner or
         | if there's some sneaky mathematical trick still waiting to be
         | discovered
        
       | ErigmolCt wrote:
       | This is honestly one of the coolest "internet accidentally
       | advances math" stories I've seen
        
       | wodenokoto wrote:
       | Clicking around the previous discussions, it appears that the
       | original question was posted on /sci/, a science and math board
       | on 4chan, and not an anime board, as everybody who writes about
       | this states.
       | 
       | This is apparently an archive of the original post:
       | 
       | http://4watch.org/superstring/
       | 
       | It's a question to a math community, using an anime meme template
       | and referencing another anime. The discussion is very much not
       | some anime fans having fun with a silly question, not knowing
       | they are dealing with frontiers of math. Instead it is math
       | enthusiast having a go at what they know is a difficult problem.
       | One even links to a stackexchange question, stating that this is
       | an open problem, and the poster of the link says that if they
       | solve it, they should post it to arxiv.
        
         | VVilhelmsen wrote:
         | Indeed. I would even dare to say most of /sci/ don't want to be
         | associated with anime at all.
        
           | swarnie wrote:
           | Unlike sites like Reddit where an overarching hivemind will
           | dominate the entire site to the point where your cooking,
           | gardening and Reality TV subs will all contain American
           | politics for some ungodly reason, 4chan still seems to be
           | siloed in to specifically focused communities.
           | 
           | Ignore /b/, /pol/, r9k and all the weeb stuff and you can
           | find some properly good communities which remind me of the
           | old internet. /sci/, /mu/, /biz/ and /fit/ can all have their
           | moments from time to time.
        
             | lmpdev wrote:
             | Some of the content that pops up on /t/ are extremely
             | interesting from a data hoarding/lost media perspective
             | 
             | I vaguely remember a poster having digitised his entire
             | niche Serbian breakfast cartoon collection
             | 
             | A lot falls through the rather wide cracks in legal
             | distribution methods
        
             | ChrisRR wrote:
             | > Ignore the weeb stuff
             | 
             | Good luck doing that on 4chan
        
             | mahoho wrote:
             | > Ignore the weeb stuff
             | 
             | Go away
        
               | swarnie wrote:
               | I'd ask the boring Israeli/US boycott Muppets get off my
               | graphics card benchmark sub but alas, we dont all get
               | want we want.
               | 
               | Until then you can use some 4chan boards if you ignore
               | all the weeb shit.
        
             | yifanl wrote:
             | I can very confidently state /biz/ does not have its
             | moments.
        
               | Winmillion wrote:
               | the rise of crypto broke that board
        
           | tempaccount420 wrote:
           | It's an anime website though.
        
             | Sharlin wrote:
             | How so? It's a very general-purpose image board and has a
             | been for a long time.
        
               | corimaith wrote:
               | The two aren't contradictory, it's more that due to
               | historic traditions as an offshoot of 2chan and cross-
               | board culture, "otaku" culture still exerts a strong
               | influence on most of the boards.
        
           | Arnavion wrote:
           | The original intent for all the boards was for anime fans to
           | talk about something within their group (ie with other anime
           | fans) that wasn't /a/nime itself. There's a screencap from an
           | old /g/ thread on the same topic (someone complaining about
           | all the weebs shitting up their board; meanwhile the board is
           | literally named that because of "gijitsu"). But over time
           | many of the board cultures shifted to the extent that they
           | have / want very little association with anime.
        
         | robinhouston wrote:
         | I fear I'm responsible for this misconception. At first we
         | didn't realise the proof had originated on 4chan - Nathaniel
         | Johnston originally found the proof on Wikia, and the 4chan
         | archive was only discovered later.
         | 
         | When I tweeted about it, I said "The best known lower bound for
         | the minimal length of superpermutations was proved by an
         | anonymous user of a wiki mainly devoted to anime.", by which I
         | meant Wikia (which was pretty anime-centric at the time).
         | 
         | I think, combined with the fact that the problem was posed to
         | 4chan in terms of Haruhi, and because it makes a funnier story,
         | that the anime angle has been a bit exaggerated.
         | 
         | Having said that, the author of the proof is not (to the best
         | of my knowledge) a mathematician, nor does he have any apparent
         | desire to publish his result in a conventional form, so it's
         | still a pretty unexpected place for such a result to originate.
        
           | throwaway37725 wrote:
           | >At first we didn't realise the proof had originated on 4chan
           | - Nathaniel Johnston originally found the proof on Wikia
           | 
           | >by an anonymous user of a wiki mainly devoted to anime.", by
           | which I meant Wikia (which was pretty anime-centric at the
           | time).
           | 
           | The Wikia in question is the official 4chan /sci/ Wikia.
        
             | robinhouston wrote:
             | I know. My description was aimed at people who had never
             | heard of Wikia, and certainly didn't understand its
             | substructure. But I realise it sounds wrong to people like
             | you who do understand that, and I wish I'd worded it more
             | carefully.
        
         | MangoCoffee wrote:
         | 4chan has more valuable information than Reddit. Reddit has a
         | lot of echo chambers with useless information
        
         | ergl wrote:
         | Calling 4chan an anime board is probably accurate, it started
         | as a copy of 2chan, which was anime-focused. Taking a cursory
         | look at the catalog of most boards on the site will confirm
         | this, you will find an anime reaction pic with high
         | probability.
        
         | Arnavion wrote:
         | The archive of the post is linked in the mathsci.wikia.com
         | page: https://warosu.org/sci/thread/S3751105#p3751197
        
       | wodenokoto wrote:
       | Slightly offtopic: Has anyone tried watching Melancholy of Haruhi
       | Suzumiya in a random order?
       | 
       | Does it tell a story with a beginning and an end? Or is it more
       | like season 1 of the Simpsons, which you could also watch in any
       | order you want.
        
       | junon wrote:
       | > The researchers posted their mathematical work to the Online
       | Encyclopedia of Integer Sequences that same month, and the first
       | author is listed as "Anonymous 4chan Poster."
       | 
       | I love the internet.
        
       | a1o wrote:
       | Any recommendations on how to write stories where the chapters
       | could be read in any other? I am curious how such thing could
       | work.
        
       | dealbreaker wrote:
       | I haven't seen any Haruhi references in about as much time yeah,
       | it was insanely popular back in the day.
       | 
       | Haruhi, 4chan, been a while.
        
       | lupire wrote:
       | Misleading rehash of (2011-2018) story.
        
       | 1oooqooq wrote:
       | isn't this solved even on ancient east asian texts? and several
       | other times on recent history?
       | 
       | i even found this much more interesting use searching for the
       | name of the proofs https://hackaday.com/tag/ford-securicode/
        
       | phkahler wrote:
       | I played around with a related problem - find the shortest string
       | containing every binary number of length n. There are 2^n
       | substrings, and I seem to recall being able to to do it in 2^n +
       | n - 1 bits. In other words, perfect overlap was possible at least
       | up to n=10.
       | 
       | I was interested in this because it's an optimal way to plot
       | Julia sets by running the iteration backward and choosing one or
       | the other square root. To visit all parts of the outline you'd
       | want to apply every sequence of root selection (positive or
       | negative) up to some length. Doing it at random is cool, but for
       | a fixed number of points you want one of these sequences.
        
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       (page generated 2025-03-07 23:01 UTC)