[HN Gopher] Repairable Flatpack Toaster
___________________________________________________________________
Repairable Flatpack Toaster
Author : t-3
Score : 770 points
Date : 2025-03-03 21:19 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.kaseyhou.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.kaseyhou.com)
| MisterTea wrote:
| This brings a smile to my face after just rough assembling laser
| cut sheet AL which forms the enclosure for a water circulating
| pump system I built. Same style of raw sheet metal and external
| screws. It just needs to work and look decent.
|
| edit: I'd buy one of these.
| kibwen wrote:
| I hope the comments here don't end up quibbling about the
| practicality or economics of this toaster specifically, because
| the point here is the process. This project involves reverse
| engineering, designing from scratch, manufacturing, developing
| beginner-accessible documentation, and performing real-world user
| studies. We should be encouraging people to do more of this!
| josephwegner wrote:
| But I am actually interested in the economics! The author
| mentions sending her designs out to a factory - I would expect
| this is astonishingly expensive for a single prototype!
| Wouldn't that be thousands of dollars? Is anyone familiar how
| to get good factory-made parts like this at DIY budgets?
|
| Not that that takes away from the article at all. This project
| has many merits, and although cost may not be one of them, it's
| still interesting!
| eitally wrote:
| No, it wouldn't cost thousands. There are plenty of shops
| that specialize in prototypes and small pilot runs and
| there's nothing complicated about the design or material of
| this product.
| jdietrich wrote:
| SendCutSend offer surprisingly inexpensive sheet metal parts
| in single quantities.
|
| https://sendcutsend.com/
| Beijinger wrote:
| I have ordered stuff here: https://www.schaeffer-ag.de/en/
| stevage wrote:
| Whoa that looks really fun.
|
| Great website, love the video demo of using the siet.
| _whiteCaps_ wrote:
| They're a great service. I've done some laser cut
| aluminum bits for projects, and the quality is fantastic.
| bruckie wrote:
| OSH Cut (https://oshcut.com/) provides similar services.
| Their automated DFM analysis software is pretty impressive.
|
| Perhaps more interesting to the audience here is that Caleb
| Chamberlain, the CEO (and a college acquaintance of mine),
| writes a series of articles about running the business for
| the trade publication The Fabricator. You can find them
| here: https://www.thefabricator.com/author/caleb-
| chamberlain. He covers both business (operations, strategy)
| and technical aspects of running a highly automated small
| job metal fabrication shop.
| rtsang1 wrote:
| It looks like off the shelf electronics with custom sheet
| metal parts.
|
| Are far as low volume prototyping goes, sheet metal is as
| cost efficient as it gets for large metal parts. If you're
| sourcing from China, I'd estimate 500 bucks per prototype
| (with two sets in case one breaks).
| nancyminusone wrote:
| I build things like this in similarly low quantity - you are
| probably looking at a grand or two toaster kit there, 95% of
| which is the custom parts - if it was done locally. The time
| for someone else to do it is what your paying for. It can be
| done exceptionally cheap in dollars if YOU do it, but you'll
| still pay with your time, and you'll still need machine
| access.
|
| Cheap and easy "factory" quality is probably PCBWAY or
| similar in China - they do more than PCBs these days. Call it
| "prototype" budget - several hundred dollars of parts instead
| of thousands.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| My experience is that PCBWay and similar usually offer
| _better_ quality than doing it yourself. They get their
| costs down by automating everything they can. They 're
| usually competitive at initial samples than many of the big
| houses too for essentially the same reason.
| TylerE wrote:
| The other big insight here is that often making 50 doesn't
| cost much more than making 1, as much of the cost will be
| in programming and setup charges, not actually running the
| part. Sheet steel is pretty cheap, too.
| michaelmior wrote:
| > sending his designs out
|
| sending _her_ designs out
| josephwegner wrote:
| Thank you. It's too late to edit, but goodness am I
| embarrassed now. Very sorry, Kasey!
| dang wrote:
| I've taken the liberty of doing a s/his/her/ in your
| comment above; I hope that's ok.
|
| (Edit: er, I mean s/ his/ her/. The thises are all
| intact.)
| michaelt wrote:
| It all depends on what you ask the factory to do.
|
| This project seems to take its heating elements, clockwork
| timer and knob from a classic Dualit 2 Slice toaster - so
| those parts are all available off-the-shelf.
|
| Other than that, this design needs some laser cut and bent
| metal, and some wooden feet. If you're able to bend the metal
| yourself and find some off-the-shelf feet, you could probably
| get the flat sheets of stainless steel laser cut and shipped
| for less than $100.
|
| On the other hand, if one wanted a factory to do more
| demanding production processes, with more worker time or more
| machine setup - you're right that it would cost a good deal
| more.
| MobiusHorizons wrote:
| There are also services that can do the sheet metal bending
| for you if you have the cad designed. Of course shipping
| can get pricey, but I think it's not prohibitively
| expensive.
| tomgp wrote:
| On the subject of Dualit toasters: I've picked several up
| on the street over the years, cleaned them up and replaced
| a few parts (heating elements and/ or timers) and for about
| PS10 effectively had a new toaster to give away/ sell.
| Dualit toasters aren't the best but I wholeheartedly
| recomend them from the point of view of DIY repair and
| maintainence. Our current model is 20 years old this year.
| crispyambulance wrote:
| Yeah, the knob and the lack of automated pop-out made me
| think that they at least deeply evaluated dualit models.
| I have 2 dualits. Both inherited, both well over 20 years
| old. There really is not much to repair with these
| things.
|
| I will say the OP's design looks cool, it's certainly an
| interesting exercise and portfolio item.
| Retr0id wrote:
| The last one I picked up off the street had no problems
| whatsoever, except for the fact that the power cord had
| been cut off. Presumably someone had cut it off
| deliberately, which is infuriating - but hey, free
| toaster.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >Presumably someone had cut it off deliberately
|
| People usually do that to specifically indicate that it
| has a problem of some sort, so someone else doesn't
| assume it's working. Although with a toaster, just the
| act of flipping it around to cut the cord might dislodge
| whatever toast bits were causing it to smoke and such in
| the first place.
| reeddavid wrote:
| In my experience, desperate people cut the cords off of
| perfectly good appliances to sell the copper as scrap.
| Copper wire fetches something like ~$1/lb as scrap. It's
| infuriating when they cut it right at the connection to
| the appliance, making it too time consuming to test.
|
| A label of "Broken" or "Works" or "Missing X" is so much
| more helpful for appliances left out.
| Suppafly wrote:
| Good point, if it was just sitting by the curb, a metal
| scraper might have just cut the cord instead of taking
| the whole thing. I've noticed that different scrapers
| have different criteria for what they'll take. Some will
| take the whole thing and break it down or just sell it as
| unsorted metal and others are more particular and will
| pick through and just take what they know they can get
| the most/easiest money for.
| organsnyder wrote:
| I once had to cut the power cord off of an appliance (a
| dehumidifier, in this case) as part of the process to
| claim a recall. They company didn't want me to ship back
| the entire unit (annoying, but understandable given the
| weight of it), but they wanted to ensure that it wouldn't
| still be used, since it was recalled for being a fire
| risk.
| lostlogin wrote:
| I'm like this with Mazzer grinders. It's a niche kink,
| but I'm addicted to them.
|
| People claim they break, but I'm yet to find one that
| wasn't fixed fairly easily. With the intention of
| selling, I sand and paint them. But then they are so
| beautiful I can't.
|
| Best are the models 'Major' and above. The air vents look
| so good. Who needs to grind 20kgs of beans per day? Not
| me, but I can do this 5 or 6 times over.
| sizzle wrote:
| Isn't this the perfect type of project/product for
| Kickstarter?
| serviceberry wrote:
| Perfect in what sense? Kickstarter is useful if you're
| thinking of doing something capital-intensive and need
| money and customers beforehand. This comes with downsides:
| deadlines, shipping, cranky customers, etc.
|
| This is a hobby project and there's nothing to suggest that
| the author wants to get in the business of selling toasters
| for a living... or that it would be wise for them to do so.
| cogman10 wrote:
| The target, though, is particularly bad.
|
| My parents literally have a toaster from the 70s that they
| still use. I have a toaster I bought 20 years ago. Toasters
| (usually) don't have e-waste. They are incredibly simple
| machines that are easy to buy without so much as a single
| diode. That's because they are really simply just a box with
| heating elements.
|
| If you want to battle e-waste like the article suggests, maybe
| pick a product that doesn't already have a 50-year service life
| without the need for repairs.
| hatthew wrote:
| Modern toasters are generally way less reliable than older
| toasters. I think it is very difficult to buy a new toaster
| today that you can be confident will have a 50-year lifespan.
| turnsout wrote:
| Also true, but how many people are buying toasters in 2025?
| I would bet that air fryers and toaster ovens outsell
| toasters 10:1.
|
| Still, I think this is a great portfolio piece. The
| designer should keep going, and amass a little collection
| of simple repairable appliances.
| davidmurdoch wrote:
| Me! I bought one last year.
| esseph wrote:
| Ours died and I just bought a new 4 slice toaster to
| replace it.
|
| I haven't seen a toaster oven big enough for my family,
| and we otherwise have an excellent oven with convection
| features.
| mhb wrote:
| How big is your family? A normal Breville toaster oven
| can hold 4 slices. And there are bigger ones.
| ajb wrote:
| Not everyone has a big American kitchen where you can try
| new appliances and not worry about space. I've been
| thinking about getting an air fryer but it's not an easy
| decision because I'd have to remove something else that I
| use; and I know others in the same position.
|
| It wouldn't replace the toaster, because that fits on the
| windowsill and an air fryer would not.
| mc3301 wrote:
| yeah, our toast is toasted in a frying pan.
|
| Tiny kitchen here. I'd like to try an air-fryer, but for
| now my one table-top appliance is a instant pot. It is
| used daily.
| turnsout wrote:
| I hear you--I also have a tiny kitchen, but there
| happened to be a carveout for a microwave, which we
| replaced with a toaster oven. But I grill all my bread on
| the frying pan, because it this is the objectively
| superior method. :)
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Isn't an air fryer already the poster child of a "can't
| have a regular oven because I have no space in the
| kitchen, I'm renting the apartment, or both" appliance?
| regularfry wrote:
| I'm lucky enough to have space for both. They do
| different jobs - there's overlap, obviously, but I don't
| bake bread in the airfryer and I don't cook chicken wings
| in the oven.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >Isn't an air fryer already the poster child of a "can't
| have a regular oven because I have no space in the
| kitchen, I'm renting the apartment, or both" appliance?
|
| I suppose it's that for some people but everyone I know
| with one also has a fullsized oven. They are used for
| different purposes and often you don't want to heat up
| your whole oven to warm up some fries for 10 minutes.
| crazygringo wrote:
| But that's the whole point.
|
| A toaster does only one thing and takes up space.
|
| An air fryer or toaster oven does lots of things, and
| also makes toast.
|
| That's why toaster oven makes very little sense for
| anyone _except_ if they have a "big American kitchen"
| and want to fill their countertop.
| rnewme wrote:
| I just bought one today, heh.
| protocolture wrote:
| I bought one in 2017, lasted 2 years before 1 of the
| heating elements died. We struggled along with 2/4 slices
| until we replaced it during covid with a 2 slice toaster.
| I dont really trust its going to last 50 years or
| whatever.
| alias_neo wrote:
| Depends where you're from. Lots of people use toasters in
| the UK.
|
| I'm due to buy a new one, because the supposedly decent
| one I bought less than 5 years ago isn't toasting
| properly, and either burns the toast or does nothing
| despite adjusting the dial.
| tomgp wrote:
| Every single kitchen I've ever visited in the UK has a
| toaster and a kettle. Just because things aren't popular
| in the US...
| crazygringo wrote:
| Are air fryers and toaster ovens not popular in the UK?
|
| If you have one of those, they (can) replace your
| toaster.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >Also true, but how many people are buying toasters in
| 2025? I would bet that air fryers and toaster ovens
| outsell toasters 10:1.
|
| More houses probably have toasters than all the others
| combined, but toasters don't really wear out all that
| often. You buy one for $10 when you setup your household
| and it lasts a decade or more.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >Modern toasters are generally way less reliable than older
| toasters. I think it is very difficult to buy a new toaster
| today that you can be confident will have a 50-year
| lifespan.
|
| On the flip side, modern toasters cost $10 and last nearly
| as long. Not everything needs to last forever, but I've
| never had a modern toaster wear out. You only think the old
| ones were reliable because they cost enough that people
| would pay to have them repaired. That and a huge helping of
| survivorship bias.
| forgetfreeman wrote:
| > On the flip side, modern toasters cost $10 and last
| nearly as long.
|
| This claim can only be meaningfully examined in like 60
| years, minimum, and I have my doubts. I've yet to see a
| 70s era toaster die, and have personally watched four
| modern toasters go into a dumpster in the last 25 years.
| Old toasters were reliable because consumers of the day
| wouldn't tolerate disposable crap which informed every
| aspect of material selection and design.
| yitchelle wrote:
| While not discrediting your observation, what would be an
| example that could be investigated by a small team?
|
| I was thinking about an electronic toothbrush, or a kettle?
| cogman10 wrote:
| Definitely something with parts that fall. I wouldn't do a
| kettle because those are toaster simple.
|
| An electric toothbrush would be good. There are a few parts
| that could fall, the battery in particular.
| nicbou wrote:
| If you want to battle e-waste, buy a used toaster.
| berkes wrote:
| Another -often overlooked- benefit of buying used
| appliances, is that they have proven to be sturdy, and/or
| repairable.
|
| Cheap temu-junk doesn't end up in thrift stores. Or, if it
| does, is easily filtered out. If I see a toaster that looks
| well used and/or aged, I can be certain it has at least
| proven to last a while and actual use.
|
| It's also why I buy refurbished washing machine,
| refridgerators, etc: a refurbisher commonly won't refurbish
| stuff that's hard to repair: their economics prefer stuff
| that's sturdy, easy and cheap to repair. Win win win.
| InDubioProRubio wrote:
| Have a privileg toploader - happily doing its chores. Its
| all the years old.
| protocolture wrote:
| I can walk and quibble about economics at the same time.
| geoffeg wrote:
| That's a lot of JS for a static site. For some reason it hijacked
| my keyboard shortcuts for back and forward.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| same. wtf?
| quesera wrote:
| Welcome to Squarespace.
|
| Fortunately, these sites often work fine with only CSS and
| images allowed. No JS required.
| htunnicliff wrote:
| I'd love to buy one of these.
| blagie wrote:
| I would definitely buy one, assuming there was some guarantee
| on parts availability "for the lifespan of the company up to X
| decades" or some similarly long time.
|
| I would doubly do so if the design were open-source.
|
| I would triply do so if I could have all my new home appliances
| this way. I tossed my last fridge and my last washing machine
| over parts which would have been in the single-digit dollars to
| manufacture.
|
| If the author is not commercializing this, the design and
| instructions should be open-sourced (and, ideally, advertised
| to a Chinese discount company).
| toast0 wrote:
| > and, ideally, advertised to a Chinese discount company
|
| Do you need to provide the documentation to the discount
| company? I was always under the impression the best way to
| get a product made was
|
| a) make a compelling video
|
| b) post to a crowdfunding site and make a lot of PR noise
| elsewhere
|
| c) wait for the knock offs, if it takes a while, write up
| some posts about how you're having trouble finding production
| partners
|
| d) if the knocks offs are decent, send a good knock off to
| the backers, otherwise refund their pledges.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| I have the same $30 no-name toaster that my now-ex purchased
| shortly after we were married in 2010. I open it up every few
| years to deep clean the crumbs, and I've changed the cord twice.
| Thing is an absolute tank.
|
| I try to be a BIFL type of person and am willing to pay a premium
| for items that will last. Occasionally I hit up against something
| like this toaster, though, which runs completely counter to my
| expectations of what makes an indestructible kitchen appliance.
| nemomarx wrote:
| How hard is replacing the cord? That seems like it goes a long
| way to extending the life already, though.
| dmoy wrote:
| Replacing: usually not hard. Open the thing, unscrew the
| things holding the ends of the wire on, remove old cord, put
| new cord's wires in, screw down, close thing back up.
|
| (Often "open the thing" and "close the thing" are the hardest
| - modern devices with plastic clipped on plastic and needing
| delicate shimming to pry stuff open)
|
| Depending on the level of fix you're going for and where the
| break is, it can be anywhere from very simple and a few
| minutes, to much more involved.
|
| If the break is actually at the plug end, you can often pop
| off the plug housing, trim the wire back, and do basically
| the same as above.
|
| If the break is in the middle of the cord and you're not
| squeamish about the final fix having electrical tape on bare
| wire, then cut, strip, twist, tape, and ... don't fuck it up?
| dmoy wrote:
| I would also personally not do this with an American
| ungrounded toaster, even though I have an EE degree and
| have done a lot of wire stripping, re-assembling wires,
| electrical tape, soldering, etc stuff.
|
| A new toaster is cheap. House fires are not.
| brudgers wrote:
| With experience, there is nothing hard about changing a cord.
|
| Without experience, it is harder. Removing the strain release
| requires mechanical sympathy; desoldering/soldering requires
| soldering skill; etc.
|
| If it was your job, you'd pick it up in a day or few. If it
| is not your job, the learning curve is spread across the time
| between jobs and there's relearning if the jobs are
| infrequent.
| TOMDM wrote:
| Is there good data on goods that are the largest contributors to
| e-waste?
|
| A toaster is a great test case for learning about repairable
| design, but I can only imagine most people will only buy on
| average 1 or 2 toasters in their life.
|
| Framework seems like they're tackling laptops, which to my gut
| feel like they're largely responsible for consumer waste.
| Neikius wrote:
| I'd say mobile phones are worse, many more produced so even
| considering phone size. And harder to take apart even though
| laptops are getting worse. But this is all anecdotal, don't
| have any hard info.
| mattlondon wrote:
| Probably a lot in generic household appliances - washing
| machines, microwaves etc. They've all get electronics in these
| days.
|
| In my limited experience, things that get hot and or wet as
| part of their function tends to break more often than those
| that don't. So basically anything in your kitchen or laundry.
| ShinTakuya wrote:
| Not sure where you people are getting these multi decade
| toasters, I need to replace mine every 5-10 years. Obviously
| not the worst case of e-waste either way but 1 or 2 seems like
| a severe underestimate but that could just be my own
| experience.
|
| Usually a heating element dies or similar. If it were easier to
| replace the heating elements I'd think it'd help reduce waste,
| but as you and others have noted, that wasn't the point of the
| article.
| Mister_Snuggles wrote:
| I've only bought two toasters in my life.
|
| The first was a two-slice Kenmore (RIP Sears) which still
| works. It cost $20 and was purchased close to 25 years ago. I
| only used this a couple times a week and now the usage is
| very sporadic, but it always works when I need it to.
|
| The second was a Cuisinart toaster oven, which is not exactly
| a toaster but has ended up being our primary toaster. I have
| no idea how old it is since we bought it at a garage sale for
| $5 about 5 years ago. This is used almost daily, sometimes
| multiple times a day, and for a lot more than just toast.
|
| I can see buying one more toaster, meaning a toaster oven, in
| my life, but it will probably be to get new functionality
| (e.g., air fryer, larger capacity, etc) instead of replacing
| something broken.
| xp84 wrote:
| I, too, would bet that your Cuisinart is likely to outlast
| you and me. That's what I have, and it's been in daily use
| for close to a decade now. Other than the silkscreened
| buttons losing their labels (easy fix: cut out some clear
| labels made with the P-Touch) it's as good as when it was
| new. We like it so much that we still kept it when we got a
| drawer-based air fryer 2 years ago which is my favorite
| kitchen purchase of all time.
| mrweasel wrote:
| We have a toaster with a built in FM radio. That thing is
| pushing 15 years now. Obviously adding an FM radio to a
| toaster is idiotic and we don't use that feature, but the
| toaster part just works. It was a Christmas present from my
| wife's employer, so I can't imagine it being all that
| expensive.
|
| But I see your point, we've had multiple other toasters, some
| toasted themselves to death by melting their own plastic
| casing.
|
| The saddest failure was a Krupp coffee maker, that thing was
| amazing, made the best coffee. Sadly I melted the power cord
| on a stove top. This was before I had a proper set of tools,
| so I gave up trying to remove the "security" screws, that
| would have let me open it and replace the cord.
| xp84 wrote:
| For contributors to e-waste in terms of quantity of items, I'd
| assume somewhere in the top 10 you'd for sure find vape pens,
| cell phones, tablets, and all manner of computers.
|
| By weight there is probably a lot of large appliances, since
| their PCBs and chips are so unreliable, usually only lasting a
| couple of years, and people feel like suckers spending the
| ~$500-700 of labor and parts (mostly labor) that every repair
| costs on these, both because they feel like 'this one must be
| an especially bad design, so maybe I should buy a new one / a
| different brand' and because it seems insane to spend like
| 70-100% of the purchase price on a repair. So the whole thing
| is chucked in the landfill. Of course, the replacement will be
| a P.O.S. too, but what choice do we have?
| mauvehaus wrote:
| 1-2? I'm on 6 or 7, and I'm hoping to get another few decades
| in. I've spent as little as $10, and as much as $50. When the
| last one died, I gave serious consideration to the Dualit, but
| the slots aren't long enough for my usual bread. So I went with
| Wirecutter's $30 recommendation and fully expect it to die
| within the decade as well.
|
| Admittedly, I eat toast for breakfast at least 340 days a year,
| but I do sort of wish someone would sell a toaster that lasts
| so I could quit putting crappy ones in the landfill.
| protocolture wrote:
| Based on my experiences in eWaste:
|
| Tech thats not getting properly recycled is LCD Monitors, was
| CRT's but they became profitable to mine for copper and gold.
|
| People are too sensitive to scratches on their screen and just
| throw it out. Once a monitor hits an eWaste bin that only gets
| worse.
|
| But the much larger problem with eWaste is packaging. Theres
| more packaging, with different grades of plastic, than there is
| shit inside of it that can be repaired or recycled.
|
| Phones are collected and recycled. Batteries are collected,
| sorted and recycled. Ancient Desktop computers are often marked
| as scrap, "recycled" to a developing country where they are
| suddenly reborn as... desktop computers and live a third or
| fourth life. Otherwise desktops are fairly recoverable, they go
| straight to "ex government" style stores, ebay, what have you.
|
| Laptops are pretty bad too, because of the integrated screen.
|
| Hard drives, some people like to destroy instead of wipe for
| security reasons. But the metals are fairly recoverable.
|
| Networking gear tends to live on in someones home or study lab,
| or it goes to developing nations.
|
| I actually find that appliances were quite unlikely to even hit
| an ewaste bin, likely going to landfill instead.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| >Two participants changed their views about toasters in general
| because how toasters work was not as complicated as they first
| thought
|
| We really do need to acknowledge that spending time taking things
| apart is a critical life skill. If you don't do it, you're
| forever a slave to buying new things.
| _carbyau_ wrote:
| Agreed. I take apart stuff that is dead, partly to see how it
| comes apart and gain skills in finding hidden screws(under
| stickers et al) or non-destructively popping plastic clips (80%
| success rate...).
|
| But also once it's apart to see how it functions, what good
| design choices were made vs what was a bad choice because it
| broke. How could it be improved? Are all the design choices for
| the consumer? etc etc
|
| Aside: I have a lot of HDD platters sitting around.
| hinkley wrote:
| The thing is with something like this, if you're clever with the
| design you could make a device that packs flat, but isn't
| entirely flat.
|
| So imagine you make the depth of the toaster greater than the
| height (easy with those feet). You put a quarter inch radius on
| the top plate, make the front and back plate a half an inch
| shorter so they nest inside the top plate in the box. And in fact
| if you put locking tabs on the two plates to keep the front from
| oil canning, those would also fit in if you flip the plates the
| right way 'round in the box.
|
| You can tell from the bolts in the picture that there are already
| right angle bends in the sheet metal. So they're already using
| the third dimension just not with as much flair.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| I had similar thoughts. It's already quite handsome for a
| project of this nature but there's still a lot of low hanging
| fruit for aesthetic improvement without negatively impacting
| other aspects.
| unraveller wrote:
| it's not just aesthetic, you don't want to encourage misuse
| with a large flat top surface to place things on.
| hinkley wrote:
| I didn't even think about that. But when I started reading
| your response I had a sudden flash of cutting my forehead
| with a falling can of beans and suddenly wishing that cans
| weren't so sharp.
|
| Sharp edges on appliances aren't that good either.
| rssoconnor wrote:
| Can someone draw what hinkley is talking about?
| hinkley wrote:
| I tried to find pictures of boxes with rounded corners and
| they're all rounded on the vertical corners, like a box of
| mints. Or the polar opposite of a bread box with a lid with a
| >4" radius of curvature on the lid.
|
| But look at the lid on a metal tin. The lip around the edge
| is often not a perfectly sharp bend. There's a small radius
| to it. So imagine the 'lid' was a single piece and the other
| sides were flat pieces that bolt together. If you size the
| pieces right they should fit into the 'lid'.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| Funny, my first thought in seeing this headline was The Toaster
| Project by Thomas Thwaites: http://www.thetoasterproject.org/
| (~2010) - more of a reflection about globalism and what is
| possible to create from scratch.
| https://www.ted.com/talks/thomas_thwaites_how_i_built_a_toas...
| krisoft wrote:
| What I don't like about Thomas Thwaites's Toaster project is
| that I feel the end product intentionally looks bad. I feel the
| artist could have chosen different paths and could have created
| a practical toaster just with a little bit of care. The artist
| just choose to not do that because if the toaster would look
| practical and usable that would undermine their message about
| globalism, and the supposed impossibility of the task. Because
| in a project like this "man sets out to build a toaster, and
| actually succeeds" does not sounds good. And that just feels
| like learned helplessness.
| jdietrich wrote:
| He's an artist, not an engineer. I'm willing to believe that
| the toaster genuinely is his best effort. I know that I could
| do far better, but I have a lifetime of experience in herding
| atoms. I suspect that my attempt at oil painting would be
| equally risible.
| iamwil wrote:
| You should try it. I'd love to see what an engineer could
| do with building toasters from scratch.
| krisoft wrote:
| > He's an artist, not an engineer.
|
| He is by training an industrial designer.
|
| But also, there is no clear boundary between being an
| artist and being an engineer. There are artist who show
| great mastery of engineering in their art work. Either
| because they studied engineering, or because they picked up
| enough relevant skills practically to achieve what they
| want to achieve.
|
| I have a particular taste and not everyone will agree what
| is and isn't art. But i consider for example David C. Roy's
| wooden kinetic sculptures both art and engineering.
| Similarly Jacob Tonski's Balance from Within (a victorian
| sofa balancing on a single leg) incorporates both art and
| excelent engineering. Or Thea Ulrich's aerial moon
| sculpture. Where the physical manufacturing of the
| sculpture is the engineering component, while the aerial
| dance performed on it is the art component. In each of
| these they could have said "hey I'm just an artist, you
| can't possibly expect my thing to work" or "hey i'm an
| engineer, you can't possibly expect my thing to have
| artistic value". But they were not satisfied with either of
| those, and pushed themselves, their art and their craft
| until they got something wonderfull.
|
| Where there is a will there is a way. And where the will is
| to make the object look shitty, you will get that result.
| Which is fine. But i have heard people draw the conclusion
| from his work that somehow this is the best anyone can do.
| And that is not fine with me.
| rnewme wrote:
| I, too, would like if his product was built as well as
| possible, ideally all shiny and almost too perfect to
| belive it was made in such a way.
| croisillon wrote:
| and strangely none of the past posts have any comments
| https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
| timerol wrote:
| Try https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=673035. The project
| itself didn't get traction, but an article about the project
| did
| croisillon wrote:
| good find! (i have the book)
| louwrentius wrote:
| My parents are using an electric hand mixer that is 45+ years
| old. It's still fine.
|
| Products of the past did last longer because they weren't as
| cost-optimised yet. It seems similar to the story of the vastly
| over-build Volvo red block engines.
|
| Yet, we don't live in a (global) society that cares about living
| consciously, to build things that last. If something lasts, we
| don't consume. And that's our true purpose. To consume the things
| that are produced.
|
| Do we need 20+ brands of peanut butter? Why do brands even exist?
| Why can't we just but 'peanut butter'?
|
| The word and our society is actually so strange, if you _really_
| think about this. By the way, did I mentioned yet, I really miss
| David Graeber?
| atrus wrote:
| Products of the past did not last longer.
|
| Products of the past for the same price point as today (adj for
| inflation) _especially_ did not last longer, if they even
| existed at that price point.
| convolvatron wrote:
| that's strictly not true, at least for many segments. my
| 1960s Kitchenaid mixer has been used since..the 60s, and if
| you buy a new Kitchenaid today, don't expect that plastic
| gear to last very long if you actually take it out and use
| it.
| beacon294 wrote:
| I had a 60s kitchenaid and it was super loud, possibly over
| 90 db. Additionally, it had square corners where stuff got
| stuck, couldn't handle some solids well, and to wash it you
| often had to remove the blade and gasket.
|
| One interesting thing was a gimmick about heating soup with
| the blender using solely friction.
|
| I eventually bought a modern plastic refurb which has been
| a dream. I do think it is a shame that it won't last 50
| years.
| mhb wrote:
| A Kitchenaid K5-A mixer cost $159 in 1960. That would be
| $1,700 today. I'll bet you can get someone to make you a
| replacement metal gear for something less than $1,000.
| atrus wrote:
| I found an 1969 ad for a kitchenaid mixer. It's cost $125
| in 1969 dollars. That's over $1000 in todays dollars.
| You're comparing a mixer that costs _half_ as much. And,
| believe me, fixing the skimp issues that kitchenaid
| introduced to give the execs a bigger bonus can be fixed
| for a lot less than $500.
|
| Furthermore, you probably can buy a mixer for $1000 that
| has a similar chance of surviving 60 years for $1000.
| pjsg wrote:
| MY first job (in the last 70s) was working in a TV rental store
| doing small item repair. In particular, repairing toasters was
| probably my #1 activity. Essentially the failure was nearly
| always the same -- one of the three toasting elements failed,
| and so I would replace all three elements, and the customer got
| a working toaster back.
|
| It was never clear to me (at least I don't recall it being
| clear) _why_ the heating elements failed. It could be from
| someone sticking a hard tool into the toaster when trying to
| remove a small item (and breaking the element). It might be
| that a piece of bread gets stuck to a portion of the element
| and catches fire at that point -- maybe that weakens the
| element at that point. This was, of course, long before
| toasters got electronics in them!
| toast0 wrote:
| The heating elements in a toaster are essentially the same as
| the heating elements in a lightbulb. Eventually, enough heat
| cycling, the metal fatigues or melts at a certain point, the
| circuit opens, and your toaster stops lighting up the room.
| Of course, trauma is always an option too.
| rndmize wrote:
| This is excellent work. I like everything about this project -
| user assembly and repair (repair is much easier not only if the
| item is designed to be repaired, but if the user assembles it in
| the first place); flat pack for efficient shipping/storage; the
| overall focus on reuse and waste reduction. Perhaps, with more
| projects like this for a wider range of items, it'll be possible
| to pull manufacturers to a more right-to-repair, cradle-to-grave
| kind of world.
| pyrolistical wrote:
| When I see repairable I also think moddable.
|
| Can it run doom by toasting a new frame per slice?
| shreddit wrote:
| Any toaster can do this. If you reduce "frame" to "pixel"
| amenghra wrote:
| Back in 2001, Robin Southgate's toaster ran Java
| (https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/just-
| javatm-2/013148211...) and could probably have been able to run
| doom, one frame per slice!
| jasongill wrote:
| I designed an automotive part that is fabricated out of sheet
| metal and this article resonates with me because while the
| completed product looks very simple, the process of getting to
| the completed product is very complex and has dozens of
| iterations of designs, failed prototypes, mistakes, etc.
|
| That's what is so infuriating when my products get copied by
| sellers from China or similar - they are taking all of the
| hundreds of hours of work that I put into a design and skipping
| that, going straight to the easy part of producing the finalized
| part.
|
| Making the thing is the easy part - making up the thing is the
| hard part!
| mattlondon wrote:
| Apparently you can use LLMs with tools like OpenSCAD now and it
| not be utterly terrible, so that might save you some time :)
| xbar wrote:
| Nice!
|
| I know a good recipe for toast.
| ang_cire wrote:
| > Repairable flatpack toaster
|
| Good bad so-so
| Arch-TK wrote:
| PAT isn't exactly a particularly sophisticated benchmark.
|
| But then again, toasters aren't exactly idiot proof (neither are
| most things in the kitchen) so I guess as long as that case has a
| low impedance path to the earth pin, and there aren't any exposed
| single insulated wires, I'd also be happy.
| brudgers wrote:
| My first thought was "is it UL listed?"
|
| Then I saw the PAT, looked that up, and it is not near
| equivalent. Here is a 20 year old version of UL 1026 _Electric
| Household Cooking and Food Serving Appliances_ for comparison.
|
| http://u.dianyuan.com/bbs/u/31/1121404214.pdf
| nickcw wrote:
| Having mended a few toasters in my time I salute this effort.
| Cheap toasters are very difficult to take apart and mend. The
| toasting mechanism on this one looks great.
|
| Cheap toasters only last a few years before dying. Usually
| because someone jams it up then clumsily unjams it while damaging
| the element.
|
| After going through a few toasters in quick succession I finally
| bought an expensive Dualit one. It's still going 25 years later.
| I changed the timer mechanism once which was a joy, and you can
| easily buy spare parts.
|
| The Dualit cost over 10 times more than the cheap toasters
| though. I don't regret that purchase though and it has actually
| saved me money over the years and made much less landfill.
|
| Funnily enough the toaster in this article looks quite like the
| Dualit. I don't suppose that is a coincidence!
| gavanm wrote:
| Having recently done a timer replacement on a Dualit, I think
| that might literally be a Dualit timer module. Looks identical
| in the packing box photo. It wouldn't surprise me if the
| heating elements were the same as well (haven't checked) though
| those are probably more commonly available as generic items.
| hgomersall wrote:
| They look the same to me:
| https://www.dualit.com/collections/toaster-spares
|
| It seems slightly disingenuous to use the repair parts from a
| toaster on the market without crediting them.
| vile_wretch wrote:
| Dualit "Classic" toasters are the only toasters I'm aware of
| with heating elements that can be replaced. Every cheap toaster
| I've owned has died from the wire in one of the heating
| elements burning out. The only two toasters I'd buy these days
| are a Dualit or a vintage Sunbeam Radiant Control toaster.
| Dualit wins for the modern slot widths though.
| janfoeh wrote:
| My Italian Milantoast has everything replaceable as well:
| https://www.milantoast.com/en/products/spare-parts/
| Waterluvian wrote:
| The problem as I see it is that 99% of toaster owners don't know
| where to find the parts in this toaster and/or how to replace
| them.
|
| That's where I'd love to see more experimentation.
|
| There's a maker space in my old town where you can just take
| _stuff_ and they'll nerd out over helping you fix it. I wish
| there was that, but in a store format.
|
| I want to live in a world where it's just common parlance to say,
| "my toaster broke so I have to stop at the FixIt on my way home.
|
| Yes yes, fixing it is too expensive to support this business
| model. I want to dream, okay?! Maybe a toaster like this makes it
| much more reasonable for cheaper appliances to be fixed by the
| summer student from high school who will learn invaluable skills
| for $15/hr. I would have killed to make min wage taking apart and
| doing basic repairs on stuff.
|
| I mentor high school students who can CAD and fabricate plastic
| and metal parts. Surely we could fabricate more young people like
| that too.
| atrus wrote:
| I've toyed around with a similar idea. A pizza shop style
| manufacturing/fixit hub that would pick up and deliver locally
| manufactured items like that.
|
| I even think that repairing items at a loss could work out,
| because you'd get valuable customer data on what items they
| used enough to break, and what parts broke, giving you an
| insight to make your own product lines that didn't break in
| that way.
| pragma_x wrote:
| I was immediately reminded of this old gem:
| https://makezine.com/article/craft/a-homemade-toaster-built-...
|
| No idea what it is about toasters, other than their simplicity,
| but I really love the effort with the flatpack version.
| lelandfe wrote:
| So cool. From 2009 so there's been some link rot; they had a
| Tumblr that seems fully disappeared from the web.
|
| Most current site: https://www.thomasthwaites.com/the-toaster-
| project/
|
| Older site: http://www.thetoasterproject.org/page2.htm
|
| Some videos: https://vimeo.com/3162229
| https://vimeo.com/3186135 https://vimeo.com/3186840
|
| They also did a TED talk on it:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ODzO7Lz_pw
| KolyaKornelius wrote:
| My toaster is from the 1950s and works fine. Also it's not ugly
| as sin.
| an_aparallel wrote:
| How do you give out a mains powered toaster with assembly
| instructions just like that?
|
| My experience with diy electronics is that most kit designers are
| super wary of even giving instruction on mains anything...so as
| not to be held liable.
| debacle wrote:
| You could make a USB toaster, it would just take a lot
| longer...
| NBJack wrote:
| Nonsense. We just need...about 10-15 USB-C laptop charging
| blocks rated at 100W each. I'm sure can find a 1:10 USB
| charge splitter (heck, maybe we just need to get creative
| with a few 1:4s) on Temu.
|
| What could possibly go wrong?
| xp84 wrote:
| Brilliant comments like this make me miss Slashdot
| moderation. +5, Funny
| debacle wrote:
| For starters, that USB splitter would be single use,
| assuming it didn't melt before your toast was done.
| alnwlsn wrote:
| Or, in the pre-USB-PD days, you do this[0]. Only 30 USB
| ports required. I swear I remember this being a toaster
| instead of a hot plate, but I guess you would need around
| 300 USB ports for a toaster.
|
| [0] https://hackaday.com/2022/12/01/throwback-usb-hotplate-
| used-...
| analog31 wrote:
| Just cook the toast from the flames of the battery.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| With 240W power delivery now available, you'd just need 6
| ports to get near max allowed power.
| nancyminusone wrote:
| The British used to sell appliances without the plug attached -
| it was just bare wires. Buying the plug separately and knowing
| how to attach it was just a basic skill you were expected to
| know.
|
| Not sure what changed, as I understand it they don't really do
| that anymore.
| WWLink wrote:
| I remember the mr bean skit where he buys a tv and jams the
| cord into the plug and somehow this works LOL.
|
| I didn't realize they sold them that way intentionally!
| jdietrich wrote:
| It wasn't uncommon for people to just jam wires into the
| outlet in a pinch, to the extent that public service
| announcements warned against it.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH0Kxjx0sEM
|
| Britain had two common standards for electrical outlets (BS
| 1363 and the older BS 546) plus a few less-common
| proprietary types. BS 1363 became the preferred standard
| for new installations in 1947, but the other types remained
| fairly common for decades. Appliances were not required to
| be supplied with a fitted plug until 1994, by which time BS
| 1363 had become dominant (if not quite ubiquitous).
| scotty79 wrote:
| Thank you for this context. I couldn't guess why would
| anyone sell a device that's supposed to be plugged
| without a plug. But if there were different standards it
| makes some sense.
| Terr_ wrote:
| > The British used to sell appliances without the plug
| attached - it was just bare wires. Buying the plug separately
| and knowing how to attach it was just a basic skill you were
| expected to know.
|
| I'm having flashbacks to moving back to the US from the UK-o-
| sphere, and re-splicing plugs for appliances that supported
| both voltages.
| gweinberg wrote:
| My understanding is that selling appliances without plugs was
| done to make work for the electronic shops. People attaching
| their own plugs would seem to defeat the purpose.
| pjc50 wrote:
| https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1994/1768/made mandates
| that appliances must be sold with the plug attached.
| Apparently moulded-on plugs aren't mandated, but seem to be
| the default now.
| nickcw wrote:
| After going through all the appliances in my Grandad's
| house and re-wiring them to have the correct mains plug
| pinout I can understand the reason for that law!
|
| It is actually quite difficult to wire up a UK mains plug
| really well!
| andrelaszlo wrote:
| Flashbacks to my ex's dad drilling the "missing" holes in his
| Ikea computer desk (pieces in the wrong place) makes me wonder
| if consumers are ready for DIY electronics. Love the concept
| and industrial look of it though.
| FerretFred wrote:
| Maybe a toaster made up of modular parts fitting together
| like Lego? They'd only fit one way so as to avoid assembly
| errors. Modular construction means that failing parts could
| be easily replaced.
| andrelaszlo wrote:
| That sounds like a really cool way to get both safety and
| maintainability!
| YuccaGloriosa wrote:
| Come on, this is basically what a Dualit Classic is. I really
| don't see this is much more than an exercise. The problem is
| asking people to spend 5x to 10x the price of cheap mass produced
| unmaintainable tat.
| krisoft wrote:
| The goal of reducing e-waste is commendable. I really like the
| idea that if people built their own toaster then they will know
| how it works and they will feel more comfortable repairing it if
| something goes wrong with it.
|
| That being said I would have started a project like this with
| researching why toasters end up in the trash. Is it because they
| break? (and if so which part?) Or is it because people get bored
| with the old design and want something new which fits their
| kitchen decoration better?
|
| My suspicion is that there are garbage toasters not built to
| last. And then there are good quality toasters where the toaster
| probably could serve for decades. Maybe even hundreds of years
| with part replacements. But changes of taste, and design is what
| limits the lifetime of the second kind of toasters in reality not
| breakage.
| i80and wrote:
| I have a toaster from the 70's. It's a nice toaster, but has a
| big problem I didn't expect when I bought it:
|
| Apparently most grocery store bread is _significantly_ more
| wide now than in the past! Most bread won 't fit!
|
| If the inputs to a device change, that can also cause
| obsolescence.
| jdprgm wrote:
| Cool project, also curious about the economics. Have been
| thinking recently with the increasing quality and affordability
| of 3d printers and assistive benefits of LLM's it would be cool
| to basically have the equivalent of lego builds kits for all
| kinds of consumer goods.
| nancyminusone wrote:
| On the subject of toasters, if you want one that lasts then grab
| an old toastmaster or Sunbeam (the kind with the chrome sides)
| and spend a weekend doing a deep clean. They are held together
| with screws, not bent over tabs. You might be up against decades
| of baked on grease, so you'll have to break out the sodium
| hydroxide. You should probably replace the asbestos cord with a
| rubber one too. The toaster will then last the remainder of your
| life.
|
| The main downside is that the slots are usually to narrow for
| bagels.
|
| There aren't any infinite number of old toasters out there, but
| there's enough out there for everyone who wants to do the above.
| hondo77 wrote:
| I bought one from 1965 last year. Got it cheap on eBay. Seller
| said it didn't work. Seller just didn't know how to turn the
| knob on the side. I have to buy bread that isn't as wide as I
| was getting but it's totally worth it. Perfect toast every
| time.
| convolvatron wrote:
| got a 1930s toastmaster single slice for $30 on eBay. new
| carbon switch contacts, new nichrome wire, new cord. functions
| great and really looks nice. there are a lot of broken toasters
| in the world.
| jkestner wrote:
| Even other more complex appliances get tossed too easily. My
| spouse's desire to get rid of our 15yo microwave was replaced
| a while ago by the satisfaction of being able to keep it
| going. I've fixed it twice with a few bucks of parts
| (waveguide cover, door switch).
| cogman10 wrote:
| Have you ever had one fail? Mine is the $10 plastic special
| from 20 years ago still toasting it's heart out.
|
| The simpler a toaster is, the more likely it is to have eternal
| life. If you can buy a modern toaster that's just the knob and
| levers (no digital controls or whatever) then there's really no
| reason it won't last decades.
| midnightclubbed wrote:
| Tempting fate here but I don't see any reason why my cheapo
| spring loaded toaster won't give me another 10 years of life.
| There's nothing to go wrong if used correctly.
|
| Back when I was a kid in the 80s toasters would break because
| we shoved in hacked up pieces of bread or bagels where the
| food touched the elements and caught fire. And knives were
| poked inside to extract burnt remains from the heating
| elements.
|
| I was shocked to see there are toasters with motorized
| lifting mechanisms. Is there any practical reason why this is
| better than a spring?
| AyyEye wrote:
| > Is there any practical reason why this is better than a
| spring?
|
| People are propagandized to pay more money for them, then
| do it again when they break.
| qiqitori wrote:
| Actually toasters need to be able to switch off a huge
| current, which causes arcing. This arcing may slowly burn
| the PCB and desolder the metal contact mounted on the PCB.
| At least that's what happened with my last toaster after >5
| years. Repaired it once, then after a year it broke again,
| but this time the PCB through hole was severely burned and
| it wasn't trivially fixable anymore.
|
| Motorized mechanisms... hmm. Well, sometimes toasters pop
| up toasts too hard making them land on the floor.
| alwayslikethis wrote:
| > switch off a huge current, which causes arcing
|
| This isn't really true. The heating elements are pretty
| much entirely a resistive load, which do not cause arcing
| when switched off. What desoldered your PCB might be the
| heat itself.
| erikpukinskis wrote:
| There's no need for a PCB in a toaster.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| The nice thing about AC is that 120 times a second there
| is no current. Shutting off at that point is as easy as
| using a thyristor.
| masklinn wrote:
| > there any practical reason why this is better than a
| spring?
|
| Depends what you mean by "practical". Motorised avoid the
| jump scare and don't risk launching light pieces out of the
| toaster.
|
| I'd also assume (but don't know as I've never been much of
| a toaster person) they can have a longer movement range and
| limit crumbing through lower acceleration stress.
| thangalin wrote:
| Technology Connections' review:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OfxlSG6q5Y
| hobs wrote:
| If you want that specific toaster (not a generic one, but the
| automatic one) its going to cost you north of 250 bucks last
| time I checked.
| Washuu wrote:
| I bought my Sunbeam in 2022 for $44, brand new. The secret
| is to buy them in Japan off the flea market sites.
| Apparently in my case the owner bought it have around as a
| piece of Americana. -\\_(tsu)_/-
| jonah-archive wrote:
| The control knob looks like the one off a Dualit toaster (their
| Classic model is also extremely repairable), as do the heating
| elements: https://www.dualit.com/collections/toasters
|
| (I bought a Dualit after using one at a B&B many years ago -- I
| absolutely love it, though it really is a little overkill for
| making a few slices of toast each day. But it's a pleasure to
| use.)
| slyall wrote:
| When I was a kid we had an two-slice electric "Side door Toaster"
| when we stayed in our caravan on holiday.
|
| It had two spring-loaded fold-up doors on each side which you put
| the toast on. Then they folder vertically to put the toast near
| the elements. Half way through you pulled down the doors, flipped
| the slices over and toasted the other half.
|
| https://www.ronebergcairns.com/2006onwards/home06_026.html
|
| Probably easier to construct that a pop-up
| someothherguyy wrote:
| common to see that in conveyor toasters as well
| vanderZwan wrote:
| Nice! Although I hope the next project will be a repairable
| panini grill, those are way more versatile than toasters.
| ElijahLynn wrote:
| This looks awesome, I definitely want one! Are you selling these
| too?
| d3rockk wrote:
| A post worthy of Hacker News Hall of Fame.
| xp84 wrote:
| I feel that the real thing that this guy is getting at, which I
| am also a fan of, is "How could we as a society, shift the
| culture away from disposability and consumption to sustainability
| and repair?"
|
| As someone without all the answers, it seems like only a
| heavyhanded degree of regulation could have any chance (e.g. high
| taxes on whole categories of devices with low/no repairability).
| Though perhaps in a trade apocalypse situation that may happen
| sooner than we think (such as total breakdown of trade with
| China) perhaps repair will suddenly be relevant. This is why, as
| I understand it, basically every car owner in Cuba is also a
| mechanic.
|
| Of course, they had the benefit of having 1950s cars when trade
| barriers went up. We've got houses full of devices built and
| purchased with the understanding that you throw away anything
| with a plug or a battery within 5 years max!
| crabmusket wrote:
| Minor point: lots of commenters here are defaulting to male
| pronouns for the author. In this Dezeen article, for which they
| spoke to Kasey, they use she/her pronouns.
| https://www.dezeen.com/2017/07/20/kasey-hou-reduce-electrica...
| ggm wrote:
| We had an old toaster which was swinging plates to hold toast
| against the elements as a central core. Want both sides toasted?
| flip the toast. It was a 1920s design. Very functional, few parts
| to break (springs, hinges mostly) and it burned toast very
| effectively. It also did not accrue crumbs the way modern sealed-
| box toasters do.
|
| I think if I was making a toaster I'd be looking to this model
| rather than the slot model, simply because its simpler. Or,
| placing toast on a flat bed with a reflecting heat plate behind
| the element. That would work for far thicker toastable objects,
| and also refreshing pita &c.
|
| So many ways to die. Very cool project btw.
| nosrepa wrote:
| I wonder when teenage engineering will sell a 2000 dollar version
| of this.
| saltybytes wrote:
| Trying to reduce eWaste as well and was wondering if anybody
| could recommend repair meetups around NYC, maybe in Westchester?
| jamesriso wrote:
| am I the only one who read this headline and thought it was a
| random three-word identifier?
| twic wrote:
| I would definitely confuse this with my NAS and put a couple of
| hard drives in it.
| botswana99 wrote:
| This is great. I have personally gone through a half a dozen
| toasters. It such a waste.
|
| I want to buy one for my lifetime
| afdslfslkfdsk wrote:
| https://stackoverflow.com/questions/79454372/get-solana-wall...
| camwhite wrote:
| I love this because it is making a practical, everyday item more
| accessible.
|
| I know the toaster is not explicitly open source but I've been
| lamenting the fact that such an incredible amount of energy is
| spent making things more accessible but most of those things are
| not what 'normal people' actually need.
|
| For example I think there is a greater need for more open source
| couches, bikes, houses, clothing, etc than the need for, say,
| software that helps us coordinate containerized web
| infrastructure (from a social good perspective)
| johntitorjr wrote:
| Agreed on the social good of open source everyday items. I'd
| love to go to a build-it-yourself store/workshop where they
| have tools, materials, experts, and open source designs
| available.
|
| The social good of open source software is at an inflection
| point. Stallman has always been right, but for decades it's
| been an 'yeah, but so what' situation. In today's consumer
| tech, surveillance is pervasive and manipulation getting more
| effective. Of course, that's only a problem if we lived in a
| fascist state where the government could force companies to
| work against our interests. Or lived in a network state run by
| a software company.
|
| The only prudent options are moving to open source SW
| infrastructure running on personally controlled HW, or moving
| to an off-grid cabin in the woods. I'm incredibly grateful to
| the folks that create software like immich and jellyfin that
| allow me to degoogle w/o losing capabilities that I've come to
| rely on.
| robertfrank wrote:
| I don't mean this in an overly judgmental way, but how much
| utility is there to open source physical objects for most
| people if they don't also include some sort of cost benefit?
| What's the utility of an open source t-shirt you can make for
| $30 when a 5 pack of shirts from Walmart is $10? I like the
| idea in concept, but how does a normal person implement open
| source physical good production?
| rnewme wrote:
| Companies pick it up and start selling the open source
| product. Since it's open anyone can fix it, modify it,
| upgrade it etc. Prices go down, both for devices and parts.
| Even if no new parts are available you still have giant used
| market.
| jacknews wrote:
| Look at say washing machines.
|
| How many different models/brands are on the market?
|
| I estimate many hundreds, if not thousands.
|
| Each model/brand comes with some degree of custom design and
| engineering, documentation, etc, etc. All for fragmented
| production runs, all to try to gain proprietary advantage.
|
| Why do we need so many? We really don't actually, maybe just
| a dozen or two to address various niches.
|
| If companies just picked up an open source design (which
| would be constantly improving, just as with software), they
| could save many of those costs, and potentially even more by
| scaling up volume of production.
| smm11 wrote:
| Do it for 'smart' TVs now.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| I guess I'm the only one who thinks it's just not a very good
| design. Right off the bat there is no excuse for all those
| screws, and those trays block all the radiation from the elements
| from reaching the bread! It's a terrible design for accomplishing
| the task.
| scotty79 wrote:
| What's wrong with the screws? Screws are the king of
| repairability.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Screws are the king of parts count, manufacturing process
| (for the screw itself, and it's nut, as well as then using
| the screw), and falling apart later.
|
| Having the thing be held together by screws is not
| necessarily the problem, it's having so many instead of
| having interlocking pieces that need only a couple screws, or
| maybe none.
|
| The alternative doesn't have to be glue or rivets or welding,
| just folds and tabs and slots.
|
| And some amount of welding or rivets isn't necessarily anti-
| repair either, it just depends what, where, & why.
| billfruit wrote:
| If you have an Airfryer, it is possibly the most consistent
| method to make toast. 150 degrees at 3 minutes makes perfectly
| crunchy toast.
| cricalix wrote:
| Perhaps it depends on your air fryer. Mine just dries the bread
| out, and toasts one side sorta..
| chrismatheson wrote:
| I have not found the air fryer to cook in the same way as my
| toaster.
|
| The AirFryer is essentially still an oven (at least mine is)
| with the heat coming predominantly from the top, leading to
| some form of "double baked" bread, which IMHO isn't the same as
| toasted (where the bread can be crisp on the outside but still
| soft in the middle)
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| Air fryer dries out the entire bread to a coaster.
|
| A toaster blasts the outside of the bread with massive
| radiation, with thin wire element that goes from dead cold off
| to 100% instantly, so that the outside gets toasted before the
| inside gets dry.
|
| Air fryer is way too slow and the moving air makes it even
| worse.
|
| Larger toaster-oven air fryers are even worse. Way too slow to
| heat up and way too much of the wattage wasted radiating away
| in other directions being just 2 or 4 quarts tubes inches away
| from the bread, and with splatter shields covering them
| besides, instead of a veritable cage of thin wire filaments all
| around the bread and right next to it.
| astrostl wrote:
| flatpack | 'flat,pak | noun 1 Electronics a package for an
| integrated circuit consisting of a rectangular sealed unit with a
| number of horizontal metal pins protruding from its sides.
| quesera wrote:
| That is not the correct meaning in this context.
|
| This is the much more commonplace "packs flat for shipping,
| assembly required by end user" meaning.
| tvb12 wrote:
| I've always wanted toasters to have a lid to keep dust out.
| That's one thing I would add to their design.
| Animats wrote:
| There's a video.[1]
|
| - Toast is toasted on one end, un-toasted at the other.
|
| - Control is just a timer, so the second time you use it twice in
| succession it will be hot at the start and will need a shorter
| time, which you have to figure out.
|
| Check out the Sunbeam Radiant Control Toaster (1949-1980), which
| is still considered the peak of toaster design.[2] It's
| repairable, too. Now replicating that would be a good project.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKbUNDPXCWk
|
| [2] https://www.theverge.com/22801890/sunbeam-radiant-control-
| to...
| perihelions wrote:
| [2] is remarkably interesting:
|
| - _" And that mechanism doesn't just wear out after nearly
| three-quarters of a century of use: there's a single screw
| underneath the crumb tray to adjust the tension of the wire,
| and it alone is enough to bring many aging toasters back to
| life."_
|
| edit: There's other HN threads about it,
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29342936 (232 comments)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38868753 (76 comments)
| sejje wrote:
| In the photo of the Sunbeam, it's also got un-toasted areas
| AngryData wrote:
| I find this thread fascinating because even people's "long-term
| durable" idea of a toaster is way below my experiences and
| expectations. I would expect even cheap ones to last atleast 20
| years. And whats with people replacing their toast cords? What
| are you doing with the cord that it doesn't last decades?
|
| I wonder if this is a case where spending more money results in a
| worse product because the cheapest versions are essentially a
| solved design without any gimmicks or unproven design changes
| made to try justify a higher price/markup.
| hnhg wrote:
| You bring up a good point in that at one point it is also about
| ensuring the quality of materials and construction processes so
| that everything lasts by default. On top of that, repairability
| is another factor. I have a fancy kettle that I am sure will
| not last five years, and I regret buying it.
| awhitby wrote:
| One obvious thing is that some people are probably toasting a
| slice a week and others half a dozen a day. The parts don't
| time out, they _wear_ out, so that really matters.
|
| Another is that being cheap, there's probably quite variable
| quality.
|
| So it's not that surprising that experiences vary.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| "Wear" is exactly right; most toasters have a pretty crude
| design involving hot glowing wires, springs and an
| electromagnet that jolts the whole thing pretty violently
| when it's finished. Just the glowing wires will fail after a
| while, even if you make them extra thick.
|
| (That said we have a basic model secondhand toaster that gets
| used multiple times a week for the past six years and it's
| still fine... although some of the glow wires don't work).
| MisterTea wrote:
| Toasters are one of those appliances you unplug when not in use
| (classically, anything that gets hot must be unplugged when not
| in use or supervised). They are a large source of fires, my
| mother knows someone who just lost their house to a toaster
| fire. So all that cord manipulation can take a toll on it.
| urban_winter wrote:
| If you want repairability then you can buy a Dualit. They are
| unreasonably expensive but very easy to fix. Mine is 25 years
| old. I replaced one of the elements a few years ago. It's held
| together with screws and bolts - totally user-repairable.
|
| Fun project, nice write-up, but not solving a problem that needs
| to be solved.
| jalk wrote:
| I recently replaced the timer dial in a Dualit. Super easy
| since wires have crimped connectors. The replacement part could
| have been cheaper (~15% of new toaster)
| seu wrote:
| My toaster broke a week ago. I tried repairing it and found out
| exactly what the post says: almost impossible without breaking it
| (or seriously bending parts just to take them apart). After
| realizing that I wouldn't be able to, I decided to buy a used
| one, but couldn't find any on offer around my area that looked in
| good enough shape. Ended up paying 25EUR for a new one, which
| will arrive by post any time soon. I find the whole experience
| extremely unsatisfying and would love more of this (repairable
| and self-assembly-able electric appliances).
| ddmf wrote:
| Howdee doodilly doo! It's begun.
| nopelynopington wrote:
| It's a fantastic idea and I love the concept of user assembly and
| repair of household appliances.
|
| I think the author has done something wonderful and thoughtful
| here.
|
| However, I think a toaster is probably the least complex and
| least risky kitchen appliance. There are quite a few kitchen
| appliances that I would not feel comfortable using if I had
| assembled them myself. Anything with spinning blades for example.
| Also I don't think anyone should be assembling a flat pack
| microwave, where doing it wrong could end in radiation leakage.
|
| But still, it's a great idea for less risky things. I look
| forward to open source hair dryers. Those things burn out in no
| time
| jeffreygoesto wrote:
| Similar idea for a grill https://boxgrill.de/
| fnord77 wrote:
| I don't understand. Toasters go bad regularly? I am using a Krups
| toaster I bought in 1995. I guess I should get it a birthday
| cake.
| titchard wrote:
| This reminds me of this book I read a few years back
| -https://www.thomasthwaites.com/the-toaster-project/
|
| How much work actually goes into the cheapest toaster the chap
| works to make every element from scratch into a toaster.
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| A TV and/or video projector would also be a great target for flat
| packing!
| pjc50 wrote:
| .. have I missed something, because TVs are already the
| flattest consumer durable that isn't, say, flooring?
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| The idea is to make reparable and part of the circular
| economy.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| You could split a TV into a couple parts, but I'm skeptical
| about how much that would improve repairability over the
| status quo. If you're able to fix those parts, you can get
| the TV open.
|
| Getting some manufacturers to use standardized control
| boards and power supplies, and listing them in the spec
| sheet, would do a lot more than any ease of access.
| juliangmp wrote:
| Honestly I would buy that. The design just looks cool.
| dirkc wrote:
| I find it incredibly frustrating if something breaks and my
| experience from attempting to repair it is that it's impossible
| to disassemble. I'm currently sitting with a broken coffee
| grinder that I can take apart with a brick :(
|
| I frequently dream of openly licensed appliances that are
| repairable!
| zombot wrote:
| What is "Flatpack" then?
|
| https://haleystrategic.com/flatpack
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flatpack_(electronics)
|
| I'm clueless.
| socksy wrote:
| Assuming this comment is made in good faith, it's referring to
| the fact that it can be delivered in a "flat package", so to
| speak, and has to be assembled by the customer. Flat being a
| relative term, rather than a specific width.
|
| This is the relevant wikipedia article:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ready-to-assemble_furniture
| Freak_NL wrote:
| Also see: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/flatpack
|
| (First sense.)
|
| It's a fairly common word in English.
| jjice wrote:
| The concept of things like this is excellent, and I don't think
| that even at massive scale that you could get the average
| consumer to go along with it, unfortunately. Even if this thing
| is 30% more expensive than a non-repairable toaster, I bet many
| consumers would pick the cheaper one, despite it probably not
| being the long term financially optimal decision. There are valid
| reasons for it, but even people with means would skip over this,
| I'd imagine.
|
| I know so many people in my life that can afford the better
| quality version of something, but instead opt for the cheaper,
| shittier version. When the shitty one dies, they get a new shitty
| one. I think it comes down to the short term impact of cost,which
| is a valid choice if the cost is the main constraint currently,
| but I repeatedly see this even in cases where the additional cost
| isn't an issue.
|
| My ranting aside, this is an incredibly cool project and I'd love
| things like this in my life. Partially for the fact it's
| repairable and better for the environment, but partially because
| it's just neat to have a modular version of your household
| appliances.
| 8bitsrule wrote:
| >I know so many people in my life that can afford the better
| quality version of something, but instead opt for the cheaper,
| shittier version. When the shitty one dies, they get a new
| shitty one.
|
| Where I once lived in the midwest this was called the 'Kame-
| apart mentality'.
|
| But I don't why this toaster can't cost more or less the same,
| and it comes with that non-purchasable accessory, bragging
| rights.
| lostlogin wrote:
| This has me thinking of the guy who made a toaster from scratch.
| 'Made', as in, made the wires etc.
|
| https://www.thomasthwaites.com/the-toaster-project/
|
| https://gizmodo.com/one-mans-nearly-impossible-quest-to-make...
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-03-04 23:00 UTC)