[HN Gopher] ARPA is funding cheap community-owned gigabit fiber ...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       ARPA is funding cheap community-owned gigabit fiber to neglected
       neighborhoods
        
       Author : hn_acker
       Score  : 132 points
       Date   : 2025-02-24 14:48 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.techdirt.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.techdirt.com)
        
       | hn_acker wrote:
       | The full title is:
       | 
       | > ARPA Is Quietly Funding Cheap ($50-$65 A Month) Community-Owned
       | Gigabit Fiber Access To Long Neglected Neighborhoods
        
         | madeofpalk wrote:
         | Title made it sound like ARPA is comitting up to a whopping $65
         | to fibre, which doesn't sound like enough.
        
       | not_your_vase wrote:
       | I get it, the US is big, but I just can't understand still why
       | the government itself doesn't invest heavily in fiber
       | connections. Most of Europe did this since the early 2000s, and
       | here I am, writing this from my home connection which is
       | symmetric 10Gbps (frankly, I can't really measure it, because
       | it's faster than my 2.5Gbps Ethernet card, so I just believe it)
       | for less than $50/month. And it doesn't matter which country I
       | am, because this is common in most countries.
        
         | bediger4000 wrote:
         | My answer to that: it's a combination of a belief and lobbying.
         | 
         | The belief: the federal government can't do anything correctly,
         | and wastes taxpayer money.
         | 
         | The lobbying: Comcast, and regional telephone oligopolies lobby
         | to keep all governments, local, state, national, from providing
         | internet services. The motives here vary, but probably come
         | down to keeping a local or regional monopoly.
         | 
         | An unfortunate synergy, essentially.
        
         | relax88 wrote:
         | The US has 1/3 the population density as Europe. I'm sure that
         | helps to explain it somewhat.
        
           | yetihehe wrote:
           | But it has some biggest cities. Is such fast fiber available
           | there?
        
             | kjkjadksj wrote:
             | If you live in the right neighborhood where they installed
             | fiber lines for residential connection already. Most I get
             | is coax internet fwiw although fiber is available in
             | certain parts. I asked my telecom about fiber they said it
             | would cost like a couple thousand running the line to me.
        
               | bombcar wrote:
               | What I've noticed is that nobody is running new
               | coax/copper anymore. It's all fiber for new developments,
               | and any plant replacement is with fiber.
               | 
               | Which makes sense, fiber has all sorts of advantages.
        
           | dingnuts wrote:
           | this also always gets forgotten when high speed rail comes
           | up. Air travel makes a LOT of sense for the way the US
           | population is distributed. Rail makes more sense when you
           | want to have stops along the way, but in the US, there's a
           | lot of nothing between distantly located cities.
        
             | 0_____0 wrote:
             | Even in places where it makes all the sense in the world,
             | we don't have quality rail. It's more expensive and slower
             | to take the train than to drive from Boston to NYC, and
             | that's a perfect length of trip for rail. The whole North
             | East Corridor seems to run ancient track, and the "High
             | Speed" Acela service doesn't even count as such in locales
             | with modern HS services.
        
               | Polizeiposaune wrote:
               | If it was just the matter of replacing track in the
               | existing right-of-way they would have done that.
               | Unfortunately, much of the NEC right-of-way between NY
               | and Boston -- particularly in Connecticut -- is too
               | curvy. Bulldozing a new, straighter right of way across
               | CT is not politicaly feasible -- it would most likely
               | require massive amounts of property seizure by eminent
               | domain that nobody has the stomach for. If there were
               | real breakthroughs in low cost tunnel boring machines
               | there might be a way but it's not going to happen at or
               | above ground.
        
               | 0_____0 wrote:
               | The old rich folks in CT who don't want the NEC alignment
               | don't care if it's in a tunnel (folks still came out to
               | oppose the new alignment near Old Lyme even when the
               | proposal changed to allow for a tunnel so they didn't
               | have to see or hear the thing).
               | 
               | If there was true HS service on the NEC between Boston
               | and NYC you'd easily get a far larger share of the BOS-
               | NYC pax trips made. Estimates are about 15MM trips/yr
               | with rail being about a third of that. Is getting an
               | extra 5 million car trips off the road worth
               | inconveniencing some of the most affluent communities in
               | the US?
               | 
               | BOS NYC, driven is about 2 micromorts, the drive is about
               | 140kg CO2. So, napkin math, if half the people traveling
               | by car and plane switched to train, you save 5 lives per
               | year and 500,000 tons of CO2 emission. That's a (shittily
               | calculated, admittedly) estimate of the cost of inaction.
        
             | mapt wrote:
             | Specific corridors in the US are quite populous and quite
             | ready for modern infrastructure. We just aren't in the mood
             | to pay anything for it, unless it's more highway lane-
             | miles.
        
               | tabony wrote:
               | At least in my area, we also don't build new highways. We
               | only widen existing ones.
               | 
               | Right of way seems to be the biggest driver of cost and
               | seems to be a major blocker for transportation progress.
        
             | bombcar wrote:
             | One attempt to do that (in CA) picked a not-great corridor,
             | and hasn't done much in a decade. It's really turned people
             | off it, even if there are much better places to try.
        
           | wheelerwj wrote:
           | Also the ridiculous lobbying by the major telecomm companies.
        
         | georgemcbay wrote:
         | > I get it, the US is big, but I just can't understand still
         | why the government itself doesn't invest heavily in fiber
         | connections.
         | 
         | Massive corporate lobbying.
         | 
         | It isn't even just that they don't proactively invest in public
         | Internet infrastructure, they (primarily though not exclusively
         | the Republicans) also work to make it illegal at the local
         | level as a protectionism racket for the telecom companies. The
         | same telecom companies who have proven time and time again they
         | have zero interest in actually competing and instead have
         | mostly just carved up what amount to regional monopolies for
         | broadband services.
         | 
         | https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/02/gop-plan-for-bro...
         | 
         | https://broadbandnow.com/report/municipal-broadband-roadbloc...
         | 
         | https://broadbandbreakfast.com/sen-cruz-leads-gop-effort-to-...
        
         | renw0rp wrote:
         | In the peripherial Europe, like the United Kingdom, fiber optic
         | became available only in the last couple of years, definitely
         | not early 2000s. There are still places within 80KM from
         | London, near main train lines, where you can't get more than
         | 50Mbps, so while probably most of the population of Europe has
         | access to fast Internet, your statements are not entirely true.
         | In 2012 average internet speed in the UK was 7Mbps and now it's
         | probably around 75Mbps.
        
           | madeofpalk wrote:
           | On the otherhand, fibre is now a requirement for any new
           | dewllings in the UK. I have a friend outside of London who
           | just upgraded to 2.5Gbps fibre today.
        
         | xyst wrote:
         | I blame national ISPs using their money to buy up lobbyists and
         | cozy up with the legislators. I know in Texas it's outright
         | illegal for cities/municipalities to setup an ISP. They have to
         | rely on national providers to pick up the slack.
         | 
         | In reality, these companies have under the table deals with
         | each other to avoid competing in a vast majority of regions,
         | largely rural areas. Leaving them with shitty and unreliable
         | internet service.
        
         | Aurornis wrote:
         | > And it doesn't matter which country I am, because this is
         | common in most countries.
         | 
         | I've spent a lot of time hiring and working with people across
         | Europe and I can assure you that cheap 10Gbps symmetric fiber
         | is absolutely not common across Europe.
         | 
         | In some of the countries where we hired we had difficulty with
         | people getting any reliable connection at home, let alone high
         | speed fiber. (Company supported WFH but reliable internet was a
         | requirement).
         | 
         | I think you're probably projecting from your own local
         | experience into the entire EU, which is not accurate.
        
         | firesteelrain wrote:
         | Where I am at which is around 598 people per square mile, fiber
         | optic is being installed or has been installed for several
         | years by AT&T allowing up to 1Gbps symmetric link. To put it in
         | perspective, New York has a density of about 27,000 people per
         | square mile. Rural areas have about 100 people per square mile.
         | So where I live, I am between low and moderately dense with
         | fiber. It's not that bad.
        
         | Tijdreiziger wrote:
         | In 2023, only 64% of EU27 households had access to FttP
         | (although 79% had access to gigabit-capable networks, and 93%
         | to 'next-gen' networks (VDSL/DOCSIS 3/FttP)).
         | 
         | 'Gigabit connectivity for all by 2030' is an EU policy goal.
         | 
         | Ref: Broadband Coverage in Europe 2023: Mapping progress
         | towards the coverage objectives of the Digital Decade (2024).
         | URL: https://digital-strategy.ec.europa.eu/en/library/digital-
         | dec...
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | The real reason it hasn't happened is because the vast majority
         | of the USA has "good enough" Internet service.
         | 
         | As long as Netflix works, and email sends, people don't care
         | too much.
         | 
         | WE love symmetric gigabits and spend all day downloading and
         | uploading Linux ISOs, but the average American doesn't.
         | 
         | Even in places, like where I am, where fiber has appeared, it
         | hasn't really changed how people use the Internet.
         | 
         | Or to put it another way, there's not yet been a killer app for
         | symmetric gigabit connections, so there's not a terrible amount
         | of demand.
        
           | superjan wrote:
           | The consumers that I know of don't have a clue what they
           | need. They don't understand that the upstream network is
           | rarely the bottleneck. They're prepared to pay a 30-40%
           | premium to triple their network speed. Smart ISP's bundle
           | their upgrade with new Wifi mesh routers, because that is
           | more often the issue. This is in NL, not the US, so there
           | still is _some_ price competition here.
        
         | overstay8930 wrote:
         | 5G home internet is good enough for 90% of people, so nobody
         | cares to spend money for a product almost nobody is asking for
        
         | bityard wrote:
         | Most of Europe has a culture of government-owned utilities and
         | infrastructure, correct?
         | 
         | Here in the US, that does exist but is less prevalent. Some
         | government programs end up costing too much while delivering
         | too little, these get a lot of media attention and become the
         | focus of too much political debate, and now nobody trusts the
         | government to get anything done. (Despite all the government
         | programs that do get run well.)
         | 
         | That said, I've long thought that the ideal arrangement for
         | last-mile Internet should be that the local government (perhaps
         | county) owns the fiber, contracts service and maintenance to a
         | local company, and sells access to the fiber and customers to
         | companies like AT&T and Comcast. Then companies can compete on
         | service and price rather than which board members they can
         | bribe.
         | 
         | But that's quite a bit more work than just telling Comcast that
         | they can have exclusive access to all of the homes and
         | businesses in the township and charge whatever they like.
        
         | kingnothing wrote:
         | The government did exactly this. The telecom companies took the
         | $400B and never delivered.
         | 
         | https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-book-of-broken-promis_b_5...
        
       | moralestapia wrote:
       | This is really good!
       | 
       | In this time and age, fast and reliable access to the internet
       | should be a given, particularly on developed countries.
        
       | jpm_sd wrote:
       | This is American Rescue Plan Act (ARPA) not Advanced Research
       | Projects Agency (ARPA, DARPA, ARPA-[E|H|I], etc.)
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARPA#Acronym
        
         | ThinkBeat wrote:
         | Thanks
        
         | DidYaWipe wrote:
         | They seriously hijacked a well-known longstanding government
         | acronym?
         | 
         | Technically-ignorant legislators strike again.
        
           | throwup238 wrote:
           | At this point I doubt any of our legislators are actually
           | writing*, or even reading the title of, any of these bills.
           | They spend the vast majority of their time fundraising,
           | either for themselves or their party.
           | 
           | * I assume the Office of Legislative Counsel actually does
           | that, when it's not brought to the legislator by a lobbyist
        
             | DidYaWipe wrote:
             | Yep. Can you imagine showing up at your job totally
             | ignorant of what you're implementing... and that's A-OK?
             | 
             | Just realized that I likened Congress to Severance.
        
           | HumblyTossed wrote:
           | > Technically-ignorant legislators strike again.
           | 
           | While fair point, look at how many non-technically-ignorant
           | developers hijack common names for projects. It's a disease
           | anyone can catch.
        
             | DidYaWipe wrote:
             | You are, of course, right. I mean... Amazon named their
             | digital assistant after the best-known cinema camera in the
             | industry.
             | 
             | And VW named one of its cars after the last 30+ years of
             | Canon cameras.
             | 
             | Huh, my entire litany of two other examples involves
             | cameras...
        
           | dboreham wrote:
           | Perhaps it's a cloaking device designed to make it Musk-
           | resistant? I'm guessing he's familiar with the real ARPA.
        
         | neilv wrote:
         | This is a bad name collision, given the domain (Internet).
         | 
         | I saw the headline, and immediately thought "Huh, what's their
         | angle? Surveillance?"
        
         | ape4 wrote:
         | Not the ARPAnet
        
       | tptacek wrote:
       | In the muni where I serve on our telecoms commission, we built
       | (before I got there) a fiber network with the anticipation of
       | potentially offering it to tenant ISPs. We wanted the network
       | anyways for internal municipal needs. But the economics of
       | building an ISP on top of that fiber in a place already served by
       | AT&T and Comcast are not great: you target a certain amount of
       | uptake to break even, and you're not going to get it.
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | The trick, which is hard to do, is to get AT&T and Comcast to
         | realize that they can serve the customers better and faster
         | over your network.
         | 
         | But that involves negotiation and there can be lots of finger-
         | pointing, so companies don't like it.
        
       | threemux wrote:
       | Cool! So where is the funding going to come from for the hard
       | stuff like long term upgrades and maintenance? Are the citizens
       | of Oswego County going to accept a tax increase down the line, or
       | will maintenance be deferred indefinitely until they need to be
       | bailed out by the state?
        
         | oneplane wrote:
         | If you read the article, and then read the referenced report,
         | you can see that long term planning is included, which also
         | covers maintenance and upgrades. None of those are new issues
         | or unsolved problems. It's not core to the issue of broadband
         | access at all.
        
           | threemux wrote:
           | I read every word of the article, please follow site
           | guidelines regarding comments like that and quote where it
           | says anything about future maintenance. The link to the
           | Oswego County project links to a New York press release which
           | is all about initial connectivity.
           | 
           | A single lump sum is never sustainable, so if you have
           | evidence of commitment in an ongoing way, please provide it.
        
             | eightysixfour wrote:
             | > Oswego County will own the broadband network and make it
             | available for lease to internet service providers,
             | including Empire Access, on a non-discriminatory and non-
             | exclusive basis. _The revenue generated from these leases
             | will support the network 's ongoing maintenance and future
             | expansion._ This innovative public infrastructure model
             | ensures sustainable, affordable access while promoting
             | competition among service providers.
             | 
             | From the first link in the article.
        
               | asow92 wrote:
               | Subscriber to Empire Access here. They've been expanding
               | all over upstate NY. They have been a joy to work with.
               | Far better than the only other previous option being
               | Spectrum.
        
             | noelwelsh wrote:
             | "Oswego County will own the broadband network and make it
             | available for lease to internet service providers,
             | including Empire Access, on a non-discriminatory and non-
             | exclusive basis. The revenue generated from these leases
             | will support the network's ongoing maintenance and future
             | expansion."
             | 
             | https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/governor-hochul-
             | announces-2...
        
               | threemux wrote:
               | I see - so it depends on private companies profitably
               | providing service to rural residents.
        
               | hmmm-i-wonder wrote:
               | It would be a cost to those companies to lease the lines.
               | Whether those companies are profitable or not is up to
               | their business models. Those companies didn't/wont invest
               | in the infrastructure to start with, which is why this
               | initiative exists in the first place.
               | 
               | You think you have some sort of gotcha argument against
               | this but you keep missing it (largely from being
               | uninformed on the subject). Private companies aren't
               | investing to build the infra to remote areas due to
               | recovery cost timelines. The Govt is providing funding to
               | build the infra alongside private partnerships to fund
               | the maintenance and operation of the system.
               | 
               | There is very little downside here, if anything it avoids
               | monopolistic control due to infrastructure investments
               | required to service areas by providing the infra
               | companies can then leverage in their business model.
               | 
               | Very similar to roads, powerlines and other things we
               | take for granted daily that are fundamental to the
               | operation and success of private companies.
        
               | threemux wrote:
               | It's not at all similar to roads, the Dulles Greenway
               | notwithstanding. Not really similar to power either. I'm
               | aware of how this arrangement works and why government
               | would want to create and own the infrastructure in an
               | attempt to attract investment.
               | 
               | There is no attempt at a "gotcha" argument, just
               | dispensing with the Panglossian notion that this will
               | definitely work long term. It might!
        
               | hmmm-i-wonder wrote:
               | Its similar to roads in a lot of ways, one of the
               | important ones is that there is a civil/social utility in
               | ensuring even remote people are "connected" by road or
               | internet to the rest of the country/world, often at a
               | cost to the society outside of private profit.
               | 
               | So the idea that it needs to be self-sustainable or
               | profitable to be considered working is myopic. The
               | completion/connection of the people is the achievement,
               | the sustainability and integration with private companies
               | hopefully reduces the government burden and enables
               | innovation and competition without the need for vast
               | capital expenditures.
        
           | doctorpangloss wrote:
           | > It's not core to the issue of broadband access at all.
           | 
           | What is?
        
             | Arubis wrote:
             | Upfront capital investment. Right of way.
        
         | cavisne wrote:
         | FTTH infrastructure is very low maintenance once built, its
         | mostly passive fiber optic cables that don't degrade. The
         | electronics on either end last a long time too.
         | 
         | The issue with FTTH is the build can be very expensive, you
         | need to either work with an existing utility or dig trenches
         | through an entire neighborhood, and each end user install is a
         | mini construction project.
         | 
         | Thats why community FTTH makes a lot of sense, a small team
         | does that negotiation with the utility, and uses that to be
         | build a business case.
        
         | janalsncm wrote:
         | Privatizing the infrastructure doesn't solve that problem. It
         | only means that some entity will extract profits on top of the
         | maintenance cost. A publicly-owned service can operate at-cost.
        
         | adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
         | > So where is the funding going to come from for the hard stuff
         | like long term upgrades and maintenance
         | 
         | form the price of internet service. That said, one of the
         | really nice things about fiber deployments is that they need a
         | lot fewer upgrades than coax. Fiber has way way way higher
         | bandwidth, so once you've deployed it, the maintenance is
         | cheaper than coax where the ISP has to do a ton of work to
         | shuffle around bandwidth caps.
        
       | xyst wrote:
       | I'll never understand why municipal run internet is illegal in
       | some (most?) states. Maybe national ISP lobbyist groups are just
       | that powerful or have the right amount of propaganda to influence
       | the people in their direction.
       | 
       | One of the many benefits I see:
       | 
       | - local, high paying jobs across the board (linemen, network
       | engineers)
       | 
       | - money kept locally within the economy rather than used to fund
       | a C-level executives jet fuel costs
       | 
       | - strong motivation to improve the network and make it resilient
        
         | gruez wrote:
         | >- local, high paying jobs across the board (linemen, network
         | engineers)
         | 
         | As opposed to linemen telecommuting from the other side of the
         | country?
         | 
         | >- money kept locally within the economy rather than used to
         | fund a C-level executives jet fuel costs
         | 
         | True, although this could turn out to a wash. There's
         | operational efficiencies that can be obtained by a national
         | company (billing system, support, etc.) that city-scale ISPs
         | can't achieve.
         | 
         | >- strong motivation to improve the network and make it
         | resilient
         | 
         | The city has "strong motivation" to do a lot of things, but
         | based on how universal complaints about city services are
         | across the country (from potholes to clearing homeless
         | encampments), I don't think it's a slam dunk argument you think
         | it is.
        
         | kjkjadksj wrote:
         | It is due to isp lobbying for the most part.
        
           | nobody9999 wrote:
           | cf. The American Legislative Exchange Council's (ALEC)[0]
           | tactics[1]
           | 
           | [0] https://alec.org/
           | 
           | [1] https://www.prwatch.org/news/2014/02/12385/how-alec-
           | helps-bi...
        
         | bombcar wrote:
         | When nobody cares strongly about something, the lobbyist groups
         | have a much easier time.
        
         | dboreham wrote:
         | Because corruption.
        
       | thecleaner wrote:
       | Hide it before Doge gets wind ?
        
         | actionfromafar wrote:
         | Explain what you did last week or you're fired. Probably fired
         | anyways, sounds like a communist iniative.
        
       | xhkkffbf wrote:
       | Well, who expects a private company be able to compete with a
       | ARPA-funded system that gets an extra $26m to pull fiber optics
       | throughout the county?
       | 
       | The wording here is just a tad biased. Two companies, Charter and
       | Verizon, are said to be, "regional New York State monopolies".
       | Yet they're competing against each other. The county government,
       | on the other hand, is truly the only government there, yet when
       | it owns all of the fiber it is somehow encouraging competition.
       | 
       | I'm not saying that government ownership of a collective resource
       | is bad. Maybe it's the best option, especially in rural
       | environments, but the tone doesn't seem very fair. $26m is quite
       | a nice chunk of change, even today.
        
         | throwaway48476 wrote:
         | Its not economically efficient for both charter and Verizon to
         | lay fiber to the same buildings so some kind of government
         | mediated solution is always going to be required. Without
         | competition markets aren't free.
        
       | asow92 wrote:
       | I live near where the article talks about and the ISP it
       | mentions, Empire Access, is fantastic! I have $60/mo 1Gbps fiber
       | with 1 to 3 ms latency.
        
         | DidYaWipe wrote:
         | We the taxpayers gave the telcos hundreds of BILLIONS of
         | dollars to bring this to everyone, and they... just blew it off
         | and kept the money: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/the-book-of-
         | broken-promis_b_5...
        
       | ck2 wrote:
       | Easily predictable anything federal government funded that is
       | highlighted by the media as "quietly helping people" is about to
       | be nuked.
       | 
       | I get journalists want to write about stuff, but if they keep
       | this up they will likely cover their own imprisonment or
       | colleagues over the next year or two.
        
       | cj wrote:
       | Meanwhile, in my neck of the woods in NY, we have Archtop Fiber
       | who raised $350m from a private equity firm to build a fiber
       | network and get everyone in our area to switch away from Comcast
       | (only alternative). They're signing up entire neighborhoods for
       | about $60/mo (and installing the necessary fiber infrastructure
       | at the same time).
       | 
       | I was excited to see the local investment in fiber, especially in
       | such a rural area, but I'm a bit less excited now that I see it's
       | funded by private equity.
        
         | sammyteee wrote:
         | Do you mean in a sense that you'd like to see such service
         | provided as a necessity service and owned publically? I'm not
         | sure I understand the private equity part.
        
           | soperj wrote:
           | Private equity isn't in it to help people.
        
           | cj wrote:
           | Private Equity is well known for exploiting markets for
           | profits without regard for much else.
           | 
           | They will do things like enter a niche market, buy up all mom
           | & pop shops (or in the case of ISP, even replace an existing
           | monopoly), then once they own the entire niche, commercialize
           | the niche and extract as much money out of the niche as
           | humanly possible (usually at the expense of customer
           | experience, quality of product, etc)
        
           | foobarchu wrote:
           | Private equity is almost by definition profit driven. There's
           | a high likelihood that they're using the low introductory
           | cost to build out a network before jacking prices up and up
           | in a bid to become the new monopoly.
        
           | daveguy wrote:
           | Not to be glib, but private equity loves to enshittify for
           | profit. It's really bad in combination with necessary
           | services.
           | 
           | See also: dental, medical, veterinary
        
           | richwater wrote:
           | Everyone believes this weird narrative that the only thing PE
           | does is buy successful businesses, load them with debt and
           | then cause them to shutdown.
           | 
           | The reality is that PE does not buy successful businesses;
           | they are already struggling. No one else will touch it. Thus,
           | when it comes time to recoup the investment, there is
           | normally a sense of enshittification, which is reality was
           | either already destined to happen, or the business would just
           | close anyway.
        
       | deadbabe wrote:
       | I wish there was a news site that was dedicated only to reporting
       | these sort of "quiet moves", as they seem far more interesting.
        
       | DeepSpaceRadio wrote:
       | I am in a county that has been laying lots of fiber with ARPA
       | support. Prior to this, I could either use Starlink or a PTP
       | antenna on my roof for internet. Now I get gigabit FTTH for $100
       | a month. It's cheaper AND faster than my other two options.
        
         | black_puppydog wrote:
         | EUR40/month for a 8Gbit/s FTTH here in france. Private company
         | by the way. Just saying, while I do have preferences about who
         | builds infrastructure and how to regulate markets on that
         | infrastructure, I recognize that the presence of a market _as
         | such_ isn 't the problem.
        
       | blackeyeblitzar wrote:
       | Why not just subsidize consumers in these Areas using Starlink? I
       | feel like money invested in physical links in the past has
       | basically disappeared without much change to neglected areas.
        
         | whalesalad wrote:
         | The article touches on this. Starlink is not the answer. It's a
         | short term solution.
        
           | blackeyeblitzar wrote:
           | It doesn't say much, and to me it reads like an emotional
           | anti-Musk take:
           | 
           | > ignoring the LEO satellite platform's capacity constraints,
           | high prices, erratic leadership, and problematic
           | environmental impact
           | 
           | I think capacity constraints are nonexistent for most uses,
           | and capacity is increasing all the time. Clearly LEO has
           | enough capacity because there are many other large
           | constellations also launching. The price is not very
           | different than Comcast or whoever, but with much easier
           | installation, better speeds in most areas, and better
           | customer service. The "erratic" leadership has no effect on
           | the problem we're discussing, and in fact, Musk has done
           | amazing work with SpaceX and Starlink.
           | 
           | On the other hand we've already spent tens or hundreds of
           | billions on traditional broadband to neglected areas and got
           | very little for it. We would have been better off giving all
           | those people the money directly so they can pay for satellite
           | Internet.
        
             | michaelt wrote:
             | https://www.jeffgeerling.com/blog/2022/starlinks-current-
             | pro...
             | 
             | Capacity issues are a common problem for wireless internet
             | users, because the bandwidth provided by a base station /
             | cell / satellite is divided among its users. Corporations
             | have trouble resisting the temptation to over-sell their
             | capacity, as adding subscribers on the same equipment is
             | pure profit.
        
               | whalesalad wrote:
               | Not to mention - latency. So many people get caught up in
               | bandwidth but if your latency is in the toilet your
               | experience will be miserable. I would much rather see my
               | packets shoot through a glass tube with minimal latency
               | than literally travel into outer space and then back down
               | to earth (assuming no mesh routing is taking place
               | between the satellites). Literal latency nightmare.
        
               | Dylan16807 wrote:
               | When it comes to low orbit satellites, that thinking is
               | wrong. It's an extra 2 milliseconds or less, four times.
               | It's not enough to matter.
        
           | marcusverus wrote:
           | Per the article, Starlink is not the answer because:
           | 
           | > Capacity constraints
           | 
           | Take the author's word for it
           | 
           | > high prices
           | 
           | Odd criticism of Starlink, given this article cites a project
           | in Oswego County, NY as a success... even though they spent
           | $2,400 per connected household!
           | 
           | > erratic leadership
           | 
           | This is journo for "I don't like the CEO's politics"
        
             | onlypassingthru wrote:
             | >This is journo for "I don't like the CEO's politics"
             | 
             | Or, it's an accurate description of Elon's team using
             | blackmail to get what they want.
             | 
             | https://www.reuters.com/business/us-could-cut-ukraines-
             | acces...
        
               | marcusverus wrote:
               | > U.S. negotiators pressing Kyiv for access to Ukraine's
               | critical minerals have raised the possibility of cutting
               | the country's access to Elon Musk's vital Starlink
               | satellite internet system, three sources familiar with
               | the matter told Reuters.
               | 
               | "U.S. negotiators" (not Elon Musk) threatened to cut off
               | Ukraine's access to Starlink, ergo Elon Musk is erratic.
               | Insightful.
        
             | whalesalad wrote:
             | Doesn't really matter. Fiber is unequivocally better than
             | satellite. We should not be optimizing for "oh hey starlink
             | exists, fuck rural customers they can just use that" that
             | is the situation we have been in forever with Hughes.
             | 
             | There is no reason to not have fiber crisscrossing every
             | county in our nation.
        
               | marcusverus wrote:
               | > Doesn't really matter. Fiber is unequivocally better
               | than satellite.
               | 
               | Oh, word? How much of other people's money are you
               | willing to spend to give random people in rural New York
               | access to marginally better internet? $2,400 per
               | household is no problem for you, clearly. Where's the
               | ceiling?
               | 
               | > We should not be optimizing for "oh hey starlink
               | exists, fuck rural customers...
               | 
               | Please go back to reddit.
        
         | kingnothing wrote:
         | I used Starlink for 2 months after the hurricanes last year. If
         | it's the only broadband you can get, it's obviously better than
         | dial up, but it isn't very good compared to any modern wire
         | based services. The bandwidth rises and falls based on where
         | the satellites are, and I had at least a few times per day
         | where the service would cut out for a few seconds to a couple
         | minutes. Again, based on how good your view of the sky is and
         | where the satellites are. It might be absolutely perfect if you
         | live on a hill in a desert, but living in real world most-of-
         | America with hills and trees without a 100 ft tall tv antenna
         | structure to mount the dish on, it isn't all it's cracked up to
         | be.
        
         | mysteria wrote:
         | How about WISP technology for rural areas as something in
         | between Starlink and expensive fiber infra?
        
         | wmf wrote:
         | Long term (10-20 years) I think fiber will provide better
         | service per dollar. The hard part is the upfront cost.
        
       | Arubis wrote:
       | If they want to keep going down this route, they'll keep it
       | quiet. Now is a rough time to be doing work with the US Feds that
       | benefits the proletariat..._especially_ if it could compete with
       | something Elon is involved in.
        
       | Over3Chars wrote:
       | Don't let Elon hear about this. Whoops!
        
       | Vivtek wrote:
       | I think they might be rolling out here in rural Adjuntas, Puerto
       | Rico, which to be absolutely honest I would not have expected in
       | a million years.
       | 
       | Certainly a guy came by this week measuring for, he said, laying
       | fiber optic cable. Just to put this into perspective, our barrio
       | is the least populous in Adjuntas, which is the least populous
       | municipio on the island. For my own perception, as a displaced
       | rural Hoosier, it's still really densely populated, which means
       | it's probably a reasonable cable investment, all else equal, but
       | still. Astonishing to see it.
        
         | AnAnonymousDude wrote:
         | Claro has had the goal of rolling out fiber island-wide for
         | quite some time. We (In the rural foothills of Mayaguez) were
         | the some of the first customers to receive this expansion
         | several years ago. Are you sure it wasn't Claro?
        
       | 2jhrf09834 wrote:
       | when you have the gigabit, it is easier to notice that unwanted
       | data is being sent
        
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