[HN Gopher] We are the builders
___________________________________________________________________
We are the builders
Author : ChrisArchitect
Score : 305 points
Date : 2025-02-21 22:07 UTC (53 minutes ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wethebuilders.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wethebuilders.org)
| breakitmakeit wrote:
| This is an initiative I want to support, but after reading both
| stories - you're making the mistake of having a good-faith
| argument with bad faith actors, comparing approaches as if you
| are chasing the same objective from different principles.
|
| DOGE is not trying to find efficiency. DOGE is trying to funnel
| money from the people to the powerful. DOGE is actively part of a
| project to destroy the government. DOGE does not give a damn.
| mmastrac wrote:
| I don't think they are trying to have a good-faith argument
| with DOGE -- I think they are trying to appeal to the
| hopefully-still-extant, sane, slight majority of Americans.
| pineaux wrote:
| This is not boasting, this is truthing.
|
| DOGE in all forms of the name be it crypto or the "government
| agency" is a scam
| paulgb wrote:
| DOGE is not the audience of this.
| bvrlt wrote:
| How long will this stay up?
| jakelazaroff wrote:
| It's not an official government website. The TLD is .org, not
| .gov, so there's not really anything they can do to take it
| down (short of legal action).
| paulgb wrote:
| I think OP means stay up on HN, the controversy catcher will
| probably be triggered by comments / flags soon.
| fritzo wrote:
| > Follow us on Instagram
|
| When Elon bought twitter, I didn't immediately see the conflict
| of interest. Now it's clear.
| vasco wrote:
| I get the position that someone in government or in such
| special advisor or whatever position he has probably shouldn't
| be able to own a major newspaper, TV channel or major social
| media platform. I agree to that. But didn't he buy it much
| earlier? In these cases I guess they could be forced to have
| someone else run it sort of like a blind trust but I'm not sure
| how well that works in practice.
| eggnet wrote:
| The trust would have to divest and reinvest everything.
| Otherwise it's not blind. Simpler to just have people like
| that not qualify for office when they have clear conflicts of
| interest.
| klipt wrote:
| The neat thing about oligarchy is, none of those decorums
| matter anymore. The oligarchs just do what they want.
|
| Trump funneled US taxpayer money (and foreign government
| money) into Mar-a-Lago his whole first term and still got
| reelected.
| qwertox wrote:
| > But didn't he buy it much earlier?
|
| Probably around the time when he came up with the idea of
| registering "United States of America Inc." and "Group
| America LLC"
| gdubs wrote:
| Feels like Bluesky would be a good home for an org like this
| moshun wrote:
| Agreed, that said, if you're going for fast and wide reach
| that's not Twitter, Instagram makes good sense.
| ants_everywhere wrote:
| when he bought Twitter it was clear (to me at least) that his
| motivation was he wanted Trump to win the election. That was
| rather predictable from the timing.
| alexjplant wrote:
| > There is a fundamental truth motivating the U.S. Digital
| Service that sets it apart from many other government agencies:
| You cannot build an app the same way you build a boat.
|
| In my time in government contracting almost nobody understood or
| wanted to acknowledge this (at least in the Navy). You could
| practically play bingo with non-technical PMs talking about
| "increments" and "milestones" on the way to "fielding a complete
| capability" as though it was a weapons system that'd be stuck in
| the field for 30 years instead of the CRUD app that it _actually_
| was. Any attempt to expediently deploy a thoughtfully-engineered
| vertical slice to iterate upon was stymied by year-long
| compliance processes and deployment procedures rooted in the year
| 2004. The culture is used to building tangible physical products
| (airplanes) and fails to comprehend that software is just bits
| and bytes that can be changed at will and automated. Even worse,
| any attempt to introduce a more sane process resulted in
| something that strongly resembled the status quo being repackaged
| and disingenuously branded "Agile" or "SecDevOps" or some other
| buzzword.
|
| I'm certainly not in the "move fast and break things"
| npm/Xitter/Google camp but it shouldn't take 18 months to get a
| web app in front of beta testers. It's a real shame that the USDS
| is being gutted because I was very impressed with what I saw of
| their work and think that it's the path forward to cost savings
| in government software development.
| nathan_douglas wrote:
| I'm not a USDS employee, but I'm a federal contractor working
| alongside USDS employees, some of which I count as friends, and
| some of which have been fired. My views are my own, and take
| them with a grain of salt; I'm kind of an idiot.
|
| The USDS is wonderful. Unfortunately, there are a couple
| factors that might have impacted its lifespan. I think the USDS
| has been a bit quiet about its accomplishments. One reason for
| that is the common public view of the government agencies as
| ossified and of government employees as slothful, ineffectual,
| and arrogant (which has not been my general experience). I
| think the USDS has been very willing to give its partner
| agencies the lion's share of the credit in order to assure
| future cooperation and avoid any public controversy, to refuse
| to play into that narrative.
|
| Unfortunately, without a lot of publicity, I think there has
| been a faintness in the public perception of what the USDS
| does, and how well it does that.
| ferfumarma wrote:
| > Follow us on Instagram: @alt_USDS
|
| Are you kidding me? Instagram is part of the tech bro cult that
| is supporting the authoritarian shift. Why would a tech savvy
| team make this choice? Crazy.
| bitpush wrote:
| Dont the founders of this very site show some bias for a
| certain party?
| hoten wrote:
| good way to shoot themselves in the foot. They want people to
| see this and share where a majority of Americans are.
|
| purity tests just cede more control to those who don't care
| about being ethical.
| jrowen wrote:
| It also happens to be where a lot of regular people are. Unlike
| whichever turbonerds-only alternative you're likely to suggest.
|
| This tech savvy team, to their benefit, might also be culture
| savvy.
| watwut wrote:
| > Unlike whichever turbonerds-only alternative you're likely
| to suggest
|
| Genuinely made me laugh.
| bnchrch wrote:
| Seems pretty clear to me.
|
| The masses aren't on Bluesky, they're on instagram and twitter.
|
| And while both are owned by "tech bro cult" people, only one is
| owned by the head of the department you see as a problem.
|
| Doesn't take a rocket scientist to see the (sound) reasoning
| here.
| wedn3sday wrote:
| So Im sure this topic would be contentious in the extreme, but Im
| legitimately curious about how the HN community is split in
| regards to DOGE. Seems like a very polarizing topic, and from
| reading comments I have no idea how the community at large feels.
| camilo2025 wrote:
| Because HN is a software-focused social site. Software
| developers have always loved Elon because Randroids and
| Libertarians are over-represented here.
| least wrote:
| I think there is just more viewpoints tolerated here as long
| as they're not clearly inflammatory, at least when you
| compare it against other social media websites like reddit.
| It might seem over-represented since a lot of viewpoints are
| suppressed elsewhere.
| bombcar wrote:
| HN can't even agree on if Rust is good, very good, insanely
| good, or overhyped.
|
| Expecting them to agree on politics is a fool's errand.
| DustinBrett wrote:
| But they agree that it should be used to replace all JS
| tooling.
| CrimsonCape wrote:
| It's the same situation with Rust in the Linux kernel. People
| keep upvoting the outrage wanting more Rust, but if you look
| at any other non-kernel related Rust discourse it's just a
| giant mixed bag.
| indy wrote:
| It's certainly polarizing, the quality of discourse on Hacker
| News has plummeted in the past few weeks.
| Etheryte wrote:
| I agree with you, many of these discussions take a very
| strong us vs them turn very quickly, even here on HN where
| it's usually better than elsewhere. Perhaps this shift is
| easier to notice when you don't directly have a horse in the
| race? But then again, US politics affects pretty much every
| country to some extent.
| DustinBrett wrote:
| Few months or years, and it's become political.
| badgersnake wrote:
| Not at all, DOGE is pretty obviously bad. If you haven't
| figured that out, pay more attention.
| cmrdporcupine wrote:
| There is no single HN community, so you're asking for a bit
| much.
|
| I am afraid having a civil discussion about this is not going
| to very likely at the moment.
| jiggawatts wrote:
| My $0.02:
|
| DOGE is one of those things where the stated concept _sounds_
| good, but is almost impossible to pull off in a hurry, and the
| way they 're going about it looks very disingenuous.
|
| It's _suspicious_ of the highest order that DOGE is
| prioritising programs and agencies that Musk personally
| ideologically opposes. He has had a falling out with a trans
| daughter that no longer speaks to him, and he 's had personal
| issues with DEI because he would much prefer to hire white men
| than be "told" that that is racist and sexist by outsiders.
|
| Allowing billionaires to be in charge of the government is
| insane when its the government's job to keep them in check.
| It's like letting criminals run the police department.
|
| _Of course_ , the guy with the $2M Lamborghini is going to get
| rid of all speed cameras the instant they get to be the head of
| the department of transportation! Of course they're going to go
| on TV and justify their self-interest with some bullshit made-
| up story about speed cameras.
|
| Look.
|
| You can make a legitimate argument that speed cameras are
| merely a revenue-collection device and not a safety device. You
| can make arguments that speed cameras in some locations can
| _increase_ accidents because drivers look at the speedometer
| more than the road. You can do studies, run A /B experiments
| with and without speed cameras, etc...
|
| But if the repeat-offender caught doing 150 in a 60 zone that
| has racked up tens of thousands in fines they haven't paid
| bribes their way into power and immediately fires everyone in
| the fine collection agency and the speed camera maintenance
| department, it can't be thought of as anything other than naked
| self-interest.
|
| In the case of DOGE and Trump's general policy, it looks an
| awful lot like a bunch of very right-wing politicians have been
| itching to use states' rights to enforce their Christian vision
| for America, but have been blocked by federal government
| agencies. They now have their chance to gut those agencies so
| that they can ban abortion, teach "Christian values" in their
| public schools, and put women and gays back in their place. Add
| to that some capitalists that can finally get rid of the EPA,
| OSHA, and the like so that they can profit in peace, unbothered
| by pesky little matters such as the environment and workers
| limbs not being cut off on a regular basis.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| I'm honestly baffled by how there's even a debate. A private
| citizen and his geek squad accessing and interfering with
| government systems _regardless to what end or for what reason_
| , because he donated a quarter of a billion to an election is
| banana republic stuff.
|
| It shouldn't even be a politized topic in the sense that the
| consensus in a democratic Republic should be that private
| entities cannot usurp the institutions of the state.
| sschueller wrote:
| DOGE is not a legal entity that has any authority to do what it
| is trying to do.
|
| The cause may have merits but the method we should all agree is
| illegal and unconstitutional.
|
| You may not like it but congress needs to make these decisions.
| gitfan86 wrote:
| How can you have a functional democracy where the person who
| was elected to lead the executive branch and who also
| campaigned on increasing efficiency is not allowed to do
| that? Especially after the judicial branch has OKed it.
| mpalmer wrote:
| Counterpoint - how can you have a functional democracy when
| citizens(?) have such a poor understanding of our system of
| government?
| kelseyfrog wrote:
| DOGE = Curtis Yarvin's RAGE from his butterfly revolution blog
| post. Curtis Yarvin is socially relevant to Peter Thiel, Elon
| Musk, and Marc Andreessen among others in the tech world.
|
| I'd implore readers to catch up what Yarvin's ideals are
| because it helps frame what's happening and the ultimate goal
| in plain terms rather than making us work backwards divine
| intentions from the news.
| gitfan86 wrote:
| HN has attracted a lot of Woke people over the years, but also
| still has a lot of OG tech nerds.
| idopmstuff wrote:
| I applaud the idea of DOGE - we have this issue in government
| where once you create something (a process, organization, law,
| etc.), it's exceedingly difficult to get rid of it. That's
| really bad! Even if something proves to be obviously very
| stupid once it's implemented, it stays around forever and
| creates an ongoing tax on society.
|
| California's Prop 65 is the perfect example of this. It seemed
| like a good idea at the time (put a label on anything that
| could cause cancer), but it turns out when implemented that you
| have to label so many things that people just completely ignore
| it. Businesses are still required to put on these labels that
| serve absolutely no purpose, though. It should be deleted, but
| we'll probably be stuck with it forever.
|
| At the federal level, I'm incredibly supportive of killing
| NEPA. Good idea, but in the end more detrimental to the
| environment (by slowing/blocking/increasing the cost of good
| projects) than helpful to it. Ideally they'd take the lessons
| learned from what went wrong and craft something better, but
| given the choice between keeping NEPA and killing it, I think
| killing it is right.
|
| That said, DOGE's execution has been very poor. Just look at
| the people they've fired (nuclear safety, people actively
| working on the bird flu epidemic, etc.) and then rehired. That
| is clearly incompetent execution.
|
| Also, Musk's approach of cut, cut, cut and then add back when
| you realize you cut too much clearly has problems when applied
| to government. Cutting all the various science funding meant
| that research had to be stopped, and even if it's restarted
| later, there will be damage from stopping that can't be
| recovered.
|
| So yeah, as with all things from this administration I am
| attempting to think positively (largely for my own mental
| health). There is probably tremendous value to getting rid of a
| lot of the bureaucracy that has built up over the last 250
| years, and I greatly hope that value exceeds the damage that's
| done with the ham-fisted execution.
| cyberax wrote:
| To give you an example, DOGE killed the IRS Direct File program
| that allowed people to avoid using expensive proprietary tax
| filing software. It's still going to be available for this
| season, but likely not after.
|
| And this is literally an example of government efficiency, a
| simple cost-effective solution that benefits actual people. The
| kind of things that DOGE is supposed to supercharge.
| InsideOutSanta wrote:
| Giving the richest person on earth unsupervised root access to
| the only remaining superpower's government, good or bad? I
| guess we'll never know.
| Teandw wrote:
| So they've launched this site without providing a singular
| example?
| moshun wrote:
| Worked for Musk.
| qwertox wrote:
| Only a matter of time until NOAA's data will be inaccessible. It
| was great while it lasted.
| IshKebab wrote:
| > If they really wanted to know how to use technology to build a
| more efficient country, they would ask us.
|
| Yeah... but they _didn 't_ ask you. That's kind of the point.
|
| Also in my experience you don't get good answers on how to make
| things better from people who have been working on that thing for
| a long time - they're too invested in the way it currently works
| and too used to its flaws.
|
| Elon is a dick, but I still think bringing in outside people _who
| have a mandate from the top_ is probably the best way to fix all
| the obviously archaic systems in government.
|
| Example from the UK: I booked my first doctors appointment online
| this week. Until now I've had to phone and wait in a queue every
| single time. This should have been done _20 years ago_. Obviously
| there were techy people in the NHS that knew that, but nobody was
| asking them. You need someone to come in at the top (or to wait a
| really really really long time).
|
| (Btw conspicuously absent from this is how many people "we" is.
| Presumably just one guy.)
| ks2048 wrote:
| I hate to break it to, but this administration is not out to
| "fix all the obviously archaic systems in government" - they
| are there to destroy it.
|
| Think stripping out the copper wiring rather than doing a
| remodeling.
| badgersnake wrote:
| > I booked my first doctors appointment online this week.. blah
| blah blah stupid selfish rant
|
| You asked yourself how would the system work best for you. Not
| how would the system work best for everyone. Elderly people
| make up a large proportion of GP appointments. 20 years ago
| they weren't going to be booking anything online. Even today
| there are many that won't.
| javiramos wrote:
| Not a good analogy or comparison to what is going on.
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > Obviously there were techy people in the NHS that knew that,
| but nobody was asking them.
|
| Obviously someone did since there was "Choose and Book"[0]
| which was supposed to be live in 2005[1]. But, as anyone could
| have predicted, farming the contract out to consultants did not
| (and has continued to not!) work.
|
| Also pharmacists were calling for themselves being able to
| electronically book GP appointments for (patients?
| customers?)[2]
|
| An ICO report[3] also implies there were plans for online
| appointment bookings in 2006.
|
| [0] Ok, not strictly GP appointments but NHS appointments
| nonetheless.
|
| [1] https://www.digitalhealth.net/2005/01/e-booking-to-miss-
| its-...
|
| [2] https://www.digitalhealth.net/2005/12/pharmacists-call-
| for-g...
|
| [3] https://ico.org.uk/media/about-the-
| ico/documents/1042390/sur...
| mpalmer wrote:
| Your experience is irrelevant if you make nonsensical points.
|
| No one has been working on the USDS for a long time. It was
| created in 2014 to _improve archaic systems_. That was its
| mandate, and it came from the top.
|
| Elon's not doing anything special or respectable. Decisive
| action and moronic flailing are not mutually exclusive.
|
| And I'm not an expert, and maybe you're not in England, but NHS
| England has supported online appointment booking for about a
| decade. Can't imagine it's that different elsewhere in the UK
| based on a quick search.
|
| https://www.england.nhs.uk/gp-online-services/about-the-prog...
| morgante wrote:
| The efficiency comparison is interesting, since it starts
| relatively evenly but quickly dismisses the value of the DOGE
| approach. Everyone I know who worked at USDS has been talented
| and well-meaning, but I can't help but feel they've been
| hamstrung specifically by
|
| 1. Methodical improvements mostly work to improve processes as
| they are. They don't delete processes that shouldn't exist.
|
| 2. Agency "empowerment" often means working with a lot of
| incumbent teams that are simply not suited to digital work and
| sinks way too much time/energy into stakeholder management.
|
| USDS has done good work, but could have done a lot more if they
| were actually empowered.
|
| [1] https://www.wethebuilders.org/posts/a-tale-of-two-
| effiencies...
| aqueueaqueue wrote:
| But DoGE is more like a PE firm that fires a bunch of people.
| It is less like a careful founder who hand crafts tough
| microdecisions that make everyone more efficient. DoGE cares
| about the balance sheet not the operations.
| kevingadd wrote:
| Are sweeping layoffs without any serious attempt to retain
| critical talent going to empower the remaining staff to do
| their best work? We've seen lots of examples of DOGE cutting
| loose important people and then flailing to hire them back.
| What happens when that one person who makes the whole team able
| to do their jobs gets cut loose? Are you empowered and
| productive then suddenly?
|
| If DOGE were serious about increasing efficiency they'd be
| focused on process reforms. Instead they're randomly cancelling
| contracts, cancelling leases, and letting people go without
| doing the hard work of analyzing processes or analyzing
| organizations to figure out where the problems actually are.
|
| It's like their philosophy is "if we cut one of the dog's legs
| off it'll suddenly become a more efficient runner".
| LoganDark wrote:
| > It's like their philosophy is "if we cut one of the dog's
| legs off it'll suddenly become a more efficient runner".
|
| I think their philosophy is to replace the dog's legs with
| ones that run (only) where they want it to run.
| kevingadd wrote:
| No replacement has happened yet. No improvement has
| happened yet. They're just firing people, cancelling
| contracts, and cancelling leases.
| morgante wrote:
| That's not true.
|
| Look at USAID: they canceled everything, but there was a
| significant outcry about PEPFAR specifically. Now PEPFAR
| is back, and likely to stay.
| morgante wrote:
| I'm not here to defend DOGE, but you're making the same
| mistake as the article of assuming the DOGE approach has no
| merit.
|
| Deleting processes somewhat randomly, then listening for the
| pain, is a pretty well-known technique for understanding and
| cleaning up legacy systems. Of course, it should only be used
| on systems where (temporary) failures are tolerable.
|
| There are parts of the government where that is true, and
| parts where it is dangerous. The problem on both sides is
| assuming the same techniques should be applied across the
| entire government, when some services are indeed life-and-
| death and others absolutely should be deleted.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| To me, what's happening in the US now looks very much like the
| wave of hostile-takeovers that destroyed British industry
| through the 70s and 80s. Adam Curtis "Mayfair Set" documents it
| well [0].
|
| "Efficiency", which is an empty and practically meaningless
| word if you really examine it [1], was the cause celebre then
| too. And many of the perpetrators were charismatic and quite
| loved (Stirling was an archetypal British hero) up until the
| damage had been done and the trickery exposed.
|
| [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mayfair_Set
|
| [1] https://cybershow.uk/blog/posts/efficiency/
| aqueueaqueue wrote:
| What are the odds of the doggies axing this, or more likely
| cutting staff then mandating a new mission?
| klipt wrote:
| Already done, USDS is what was renamed to DOGE.
| dahdum wrote:
| Could be interesting once they have content but so far there is
| nothing there. The "Contact Us" page is a 404.
| deathanatos wrote:
| > _The "Contact Us" page is a 404._
|
| It's a mailto: link with a typo.
| nerevarthelame wrote:
| They have 2 articles posted that lay our their thesis quite
| well: https://www.wethebuilders.org/posts/what-is-us-digital-
| servi... https://www.wethebuilders.org/posts/a-tale-of-two-
| effiencies
| ein0p wrote:
| Protecting government fraud and waste is a weird hill to die on.
| kevingadd wrote:
| Got examples of fraud and waste DOGE got rid of to cite? Like,
| actual examples? I've been paying attention and I haven't seen
| anything vetted and verified yet, but I've seen lots of
| examples of them firing critical people - like from that one
| nuclear management agency, or the bird flu people they're
| trying to hire back - or cancelling contracts that are actually
| needed, like canning a Thomson Reuters Westlaw deal because
| they hate Reuters [1]. Or misreading a $8m deal and calling it
| 8 billion dollars of fraud/waste because they (or the AI
| they're using) can't count zeroes or tell the difference
| between a decimal point and a comma [2]...
|
| At this rate they're going to need to find a whole lot of fraud
| and waste to make up for the havoc they've created.
|
| EDIT: Added a couple links for the harder to find examples.
|
| 1:
| https://bsky.app/profile/bradheath.bsky.social/post/3lijt5eh...
|
| 2: https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/19/politics/doge-canceled-
| contra...
| ein0p wrote:
| How about 226M for DEI bullshit that's just incomprehensible
| word salad: https://x.com/doge/status/1892350446456500349.
| Just for starters. Is that "building" or "fraud" in your
| opinion?
| kevingadd wrote:
| DOGE saying "we saved 226m by cutting 18 contracts" isn't
| very convincing given the 8 billion example I provided. I'd
| love to see someone dig into those contracts they cut - or
| even exactly one of them - and explain what it was for and
| why it's wasteful.
|
| Because what I've seen is a lot of keyword searches that
| cut stuff that's actually important.
|
| For example, "transition care" for disabled kids getting
| cut because it contains a naughty transgender keyword. Or
| the word "inclusion" getting grants or contracts cut even
| though it's regular-ass english used in areas that have
| nothing to do with DEI.
|
| I want to see actual rigor and substance, not Elon Musk or
| one of his reports coming out on stage and telling me they
| saved 50 billion dollars and that I'm going to get a $5000
| check any day now. The guy's been saying robotaxis are a
| few years away for over a decade now, hasn't he? Why should
| I take him at his word?
| ein0p wrote:
| That's because your $8B figure itself is a lie as well:
| https://x.com/DOGE/status/1892318654827524297. It was
| never used when calculating the totals.
| chriscrisby wrote:
| I've been in government contracts. Been on the teams that built
| the websites or whatever. It's always some massive Fortune 500
| company with a VP that was college roommates with a politician or
| went to West Point with a general. Of course when government guys
| give big congrats they immediately get booked as a very well paid
| speaker at some useless conference.
| DustinBrett wrote:
| Looks like they messed up the Contact Us link.
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(page generated 2025-02-21 23:00 UTC)