[HN Gopher] Are electric cars that much cheaper to operate?
___________________________________________________________________
Are electric cars that much cheaper to operate?
Author : Pavlinbg
Score : 28 points
Date : 2025-02-18 16:11 UTC (6 hours ago)
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| LinuxBender wrote:
| _Charging Costs: Home charging is significantly cheaper than
| public charging options._
|
| Missing from this is the percentage of people that can charge at
| home. Younger generations may never be able to afford a home.
| Even if apartment complexes start adding chargers the renters may
| have to eat that cost as part of their rent for some period of
| time.
| lambda wrote:
| You can also charge at work, which is actually generally better
| as the grid moves to more solar as then the demand lines up
| with generation.
|
| Employers need to step up their game and start offering
| charging if they want people in the office.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| _You can also charge at work_
|
| Very true. I've seen some tech companies doing this in
| conjunction with adding roof solar to get tax breaks. Are
| other industries stepping up as well?
|
| Of course in hind-sight I recall we had about 16 chargers at
| the time we had over 20k employees. There were a lot of
| Tesla's in the parking lot but many of those people were
| older and had homes. Those chargers also caused a lot of
| drama. People would unplug other peoples cars, the other
| people would send videos from their Tesla to corporate
| security. I would just park my old ICE truck near the front
| door since I got to work early.
| vel0city wrote:
| > Are other industries stepping up as well?
|
| A lot of commercial office spaces around me (DFW) have
| charging stations in their parking garages as a building
| amenity.
| madcaptenor wrote:
| In 2014 or 2015 I worked with a guy who wanted charging at
| the office. We didn't have it, so he just started running an
| extension cord from his car into the building. IIRC they got
| mad at him not for taking the electricity but because he was
| leaving the door ajar to do it.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| Honestly, it's kind of blatantly transparent that corporate
| climate change initiatives are meaningless when they insist
| workers commute to the office when we just spent the last few
| years proving we would work from home. I'm thankful my
| employer still lets us WFH and it greatly helps our
| recruitment and retention.
| LinuxBender wrote:
| Agreed. I assumed the push for EV's was to buy the US and
| EU time to refine their processes around CNG refinement,
| storage and transport and to avoid dependence on Saudi (for
| US)/Russian (for EU) oil. That's nearly a done deal in the
| US. CNG not far from me is $2.25/gallon. No idea how far
| along the EU is or if the plan is for the US to sell CNG to
| the EU.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| All climate change initiatives that don't directly reduce
| either mass or reducing the distance the mass is moved are
| meaningless.
|
| Which means, the only initiative for climate change that
| ever needed to happen is a higher and higher taxes on
| fossil fuels, and everything would flow downhill from that.
|
| But that was never on the table, so it was always all just
| lip service.
| notpushkin wrote:
| > Even if apartment complexes start adding chargers the renters
| may have to eat that cost as part of their rent for some period
| of time.
|
| Why not charge EV owners directly?
|
| Also I'm not sure if chargers are that expensive in the first
| place, especially considering you don't necessarily need fast
| charging since you leave your car charging overnight anyways.
| maxehmookau wrote:
| This is _by far_ the biggest concern. I own a home, but it
| doesn't have a driveway much like the majority of Brits which
| means I rely on public charging for my EV.
|
| In the UK, electricity supplied to your home is charged at a 5%
| rate of VAT. You can also take advantage of cheaper overnight
| energy tariffs that keep the price per kWh down to PS0.03-0.05.
| Public chargers will charge a minimum of PS0.55 up to PS1 per
| kWh which includes 20% VAT.
|
| That'll need to change for mass adoption here.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| > Minimum of PS0.55
|
| Where are you getting this from? Just checked my nearest
| public charger and it's PS0.45
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Even if apartment complexes start adding chargers the renters
| may have to eat that cost as part of their rent for some period
| of time.
|
| Homeowners also have to eat the cost of installing a charger
| and paying for electricity.
|
| I think you're exaggerating the issue. Many people charge at
| apartments, rental houses, or work and it's only becoming more
| common.
|
| The claim that younger generations will never afford homes has
| also been extremely exaggerated. Millennial home ownership
| rates are actually quite high and growing, not far from
| previous generations. Houses are more expensive, but claiming
| entire generations won't afford homes is just doomerism.
| technol0gic wrote:
| receipts, please
| dangus wrote:
| You also don't need to own a home to charge a car where you
| live.
|
| I met an uber driver who drove a Tesla Model 3 and they
| charged at an apartment tower garage.
|
| The best part for them was the landlord offered it for free,
| no electricity charge.
|
| I also know someone who just ran an extension cord out to
| their parking spot in their apartment.
|
| It really isn't that hard to imagine a situation where street
| parking has overnight charging infrastructure. Streets where
| people live already have electricity running to all of them.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| > It really isn't that hard to imagine a situation where
| street parking has overnight charging infrastructure.
| Streets where people live already have electricity running
| to all of them.
|
| I've read that while this is true, the power capacity of
| this existing infrastructure is far, far from what would be
| required. Even the cable sizes are frequently
| inappropriate.
| jrajav wrote:
| > Millennial home ownership rates are actually quite high and
| growing, not far from previous generations.
|
| Incorrect. Millennial home ownership rates are 10-15% lower
| than previous generations. They are growing in absolute terms
| simply because millennials are reaching middle age and
| getting more accumulated wealth - but there has been and
| remains a gap. The gap widens for Gen Z.
|
| https://youngamericans.berkeley.edu/2024/01/breaking-down-
| th...
| quickthrowman wrote:
| It costs about $600 for a home EV charger and should cost
| around $800-1800 for installation, approximately $200 of
| material and 4-6 hrs of labor.
|
| A single commercial three-phase EV charger in a multi-tenant
| building plus installation costs at least an order of
| magnitude more when you include the electrical switchgear,
| charger, larger wiring, permit, conduit, utility costs, et
| anovikov wrote:
| I wonder what happens to the old homes. Are homes being razed
| on a massive scale? If the population almost doesn't grow
| anymore, and some houses are still being built, where the heck
| all those house disappear? Owners or renters, but SOMEONE has
| to be living there.
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| Tons of homes in the US are kept vacant, either because
| landlord( companie)s want higher rents that what's achievable
| by renters in the market, or because property is a reliable
| asset to hold that will increase value.
| vel0city wrote:
| > If the population almost doesn't grow anymore
|
| The overall population isn't necessarily growing very much.
| But populations of the different areas throughout the country
| are pretty different from even a few decades ago. Many old
| towns (and old homes) are just no longer economically viable
| after the industries that gave people jobs in those towns
| moved away.
|
| Lots of extremely cheap houses in certain places. Good luck
| getting decent city services or a well-paying job anywhere
| nearby.
| UltraSane wrote:
| Yep. I rent and for me that makes EVs not an option. I do see
| two people in my parking garage have plug in hybrids and charge
| from 120 volt outlets. I don't know if they actually have
| permission to use the outlets.
| dangus wrote:
| Sounds like EVs _are_ an option for you.
| UltraSane wrote:
| plug in hybrids are but a lot of EV purists despise them.
| entropicdrifter wrote:
| They have a lot of added mechanical complexity, which
| makes them likely to have shorter lifespans than pure
| EVs, but they can be quite good in the right
| circumstances
| UltraSane wrote:
| They make a lot of sense when the battery range is more
| than your round trip commute OR one way commute and you
| can charge at work.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| I know several people that charge their EV's from 120V
| outlets and do just fine. They planned on installing a faster
| charger, got an expensive quote for the installation so
| delayed and then just realized that 120V was good enough for
| them.
| coldpie wrote:
| We got our first EV last month (2025 Hyundai Ioniq 5) and
| we are currently doing this. It is just barely feasible if
| you don't drive much (< ~30mi / day?) and are home quite a
| lot (at least 10 contiguous hours daily, i.e. overnight).
| This describes us, and honestly probably a fair number of
| people. It also works if you are willing to stop by a fast
| charger for 20 minutes once or twice a month to top it back
| up.
|
| I was kind of expecting it to be more feasible, but after
| our experience, I think most people would be much happier
| with a L2 charger installed. We plan to have one installed
| once the weather warms up.
| UltraSane wrote:
| 120v is normally about 1 mile of range per hour which isn't
| great but is OK if you don't have to drive much. I have a
| 40 mile round trip commute to work.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| You should be able to get 3-4 miles of range per hour out
| of 120V.
| UltraSane wrote:
| I have never seen anyone say they get more than 1.5 miles
| of range per hour.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| We get 7km an hour of charging in the summer time at
| 120V. It's lower in the winter as some of the power goes
| to keeping the battery warm. It's not completely lost,
| though -- starting out with a warm battery results in
| much greater range than starting with a cold battery in
| the winter.
| itishappy wrote:
| 50 miles is the commonly quoted range for overnight level
| 1 charging. You're exactly the target demographic.
| ninth_ant wrote:
| Condominium complexes often have trouble pushing through new
| investments like this, as some residents will push back against
| any new expense.
|
| In my parents building the anti-EV expansion proposal was
| blocked in part by the people who already had chargers for
| themselves!
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| Yep, when I go to my annual hoa meeting for my condo complex,
| it's all _very_ old people that have absolutely no interest
| in paying a penny more. I even offered to pay the entire cost
| to have a charger put in for my parking spot but it was shot
| down over concerns of having to drop wiring out to it.
| legitster wrote:
| If someone can afford a brand new mid-range car, they are
| probably doing well enough to buy a home or live at a place
| with charging options.
| coldpie wrote:
| > Missing from this is the percentage of people that can charge
| at home.
|
| In the US[1], about 70% of homes are detached or attached
| single-family homes[2]. The vast majority of those will be able
| to support charging one or two cars at home. How to address the
| remaining 30% is definitely an issue worth discussing, but it's
| not an issue for the majority of people who live in the US. If
| we could get to 70% of cars to being EVs, that would be a huge
| dent in our emissions, still worth celebrating even if it
| doesn't work for absolutely everyone.
|
| > Even if apartment complexes start adding chargers the renters
| may have to eat that cost as part of their rent for some period
| of time.
|
| What I've seen around here (Twin Cities, MN) is apartments just
| have some charging company put about 4~8 of their fast chargers
| in their parking lot. I would guess those companies pay the
| installation costs and charge the users directly, so the
| apartment owners don't have to deal with it at all.
|
| [1] The article is about Europe, but I don't live there. Maybe
| someone else can find stats for Europe.
|
| [2] Source: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1042111/single-
| family-vs...
| jcranmer wrote:
| From https://www.eia.gov/consumption/residential/data/2020/hc
| /pdf..., out of ~80m non multi-unit homes, only about 50m
| have a garage, with about 30m without a garage and about 40m
| living in a complex where garages aren't expected.
|
| That's not exactly a vast majority that could support
| charging at home.
| coldpie wrote:
| Good find! Interesting data in that. I don't think a garage
| is a requirement to charging at home, but that's still a
| fair point and a lower number than I expected.
| ianburrell wrote:
| Garages aren't necessary for charging. There are outdoor
| car chargers that can mount on pole. It is a little harder
| to run the power to them but not that expensive.
|
| Similar chargers would work for apartment complex parking
| lots. It would even be possible to put chargers on street
| parking.
| jcranmer wrote:
| The way I interpret it, if you don't have a dedicated
| exclusive access to a parking space, you don't really
| have at-home charging, because the exclusive access is
| what gets rid of the need to negotiate with other people
| for access to the charger.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I expect almost all detached homes to have a driveway,
| even if they do not have a garage.
| vel0city wrote:
| There are a lot of houses near me without garages but with
| covered carports with space to park 1-2 cars. So, some
| percentage of those 30m without a garage would still be
| able to have at-home charging. No idea on what that
| percentage would be though.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| > In the US[1], about 70% of homes are detached or attached
| single-family homes[2].
|
| Wrong statistic. You need the percentage of the population
| that lives in such a home vs. other arrangements.
| xnx wrote:
| You would never want to buy an EV if you can't charge where you
| sleep.
| silexia wrote:
| The electric grid cannot support everyone driving EVs and even if
| it could, the electricity is usually produced by coal plants or
| rare earth mined renewables that have an even greater
| environmental burden, just shifted out of cities and out of
| sight.
| rehash3 wrote:
| The reason to use EVs is not just based on the source of
| electricity. In a traffic jam, the quality of air I breathe
| would be so much better if all vehicles were EVs.
| kylebenzle wrote:
| And all home heating used to be coal or wood but things seem to
| just keep changing.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| We're not going to instantly switch to 100% EV's. Even if every
| single car sold in 2025 was an EV, most cars on the road would
| be gasoline.
|
| Doing the math, you find that grid requirements will increase
| about 1% per annum for about 20 years on a switch to EV's.
|
| Which is less impact than air conditioning and crypto/AI.
|
| If we can't expand the grid 1% a year, we've got other
| problems.
| duxup wrote:
| My local electric company is advertising that they install
| chargers.
|
| I suspect they can handle any realistic levels of adoption.
|
| I'm not sure that a hypothetical of an immediate switch with
| all the required vehicle and charger purchases and deliveries /
| installs happening like magic over night ... means anything.
| namdnay wrote:
| https://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.php?id=427&t=3
|
| 60% of US electricity is fossil fuels, and that's one of the
| higher mixes. Canada is 60% hydro for example
|
| And even if it were 100%, the efficiency of a power plant +
| electric network + electric car is higher than equivalent
| petrol transport + petrol car
| colechristensen wrote:
| Coal is now the third largest energy source in the US behind
| nuclear and natural gas. Solar accounts for 60% of added
| capacity. It's just wrong to say that rare earth mining has
| more impact than energy production. And the grid needs
| shifting, so what? It needs to be updated anyway.
| cabirum wrote:
| As soon as burn cash and govt subsidies run out, with lithium
| and electricity demand rising, EVs will be far more expensive
| to operate.
| ben_w wrote:
| _Chinese government_ subsidies, even for their own citizens '
| (i.e. non-exported) cars, which are sold to Chinese people in
| China at about half the cost that Europeans pay for the same
| models when imported, which is still enough undercut local
| brands, and European cars are mostly cheaper than American
| cars?
|
| There's a _lot_ of room for cheap EVs even without subsidies.
|
| BYD Dolphin sells new in China for just under 100k yuan,
| which is about $13,800.
| sightbroke wrote:
| A. Do you believe that they are not researching and developing
| ways to improve the grid for an increase in demand from EVs?
|
| B. Coal has massively been replaced by Natural Gas. Regardless
| emissions outside of cities is better than emissions inside
| cities. There are growing alternatives that are either carbon
| neutral or produce no greenhouse gasses to generate
| electricity.
|
| C. How is mining material worse for the environment if it
| lowers the amount of greenhouse gasses emitted?
| lambda wrote:
| This is complete FUD.
|
| Even when charging on pure fossil fuels, generating in large
| plants with efficient turbines and delivering it to efficient
| electric motors is more efficient than pumping, refining, and
| delivering gasoline to millions of tiny piston engines.
|
| But we don't charge on pure fossil fuels. The grid is
| increasingly powered by renewables and nuclear, which are less
| harmful to the environment than fossil fuels. Anthropogenic
| climate change could lead to mass catastrophe if we don't get
| it under control; it's already costing us billions and killing
| people worldwide.
|
| And while our electric grid couldn't handle everyone switching
| to electric vehicles over night, the transition takes time, and
| we can invest in grid improvements as energy demand moves
| towards greater electric usage due vehicles.
| jamil7 wrote:
| > the electricity is usually produced by coal plants or rare
| earth mined renewables that have an even greater environmental
| burden
|
| Renewables don't typically rely on rare earths, maybe small
| amounts in some wind turbine magnets.
| pjc50 wrote:
| This is changing rapidly all over the world. UK hit a peak of
| over 90% renewable on one day last year, and that's only going
| to increase. Almost no coal generation left in the UK.
|
| https://www.greenintelligence.org.uk/news-and-resources/news...
| thinkcontext wrote:
| This is by far the most persistent piece of misinformation
| about EVs. In the US in 2020, on average, EVs co2 emissions
| corresponded to an average ICE vehicle that got 91mph. On the
| highest carbon intensity (ie dirtiest) grid in the country that
| figure was 44mph in SERC Midwest. The best was in upstate NY at
| 246mph. So, even in the worst case when driving like vehicles
| its a lot cleaner to drive an EV. It is true that the dirtier
| the grid the longer it takes to overcome the higher
| manufacturing emissions.
|
| The Union of Concerned Scientists had a study which shows the
| math on all this. Of course these are the 2020 numbers so
| everything is better now than it was then.
|
| https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/driving-cleaner
|
| https://www.epa.gov/egrid/power-profiler#/SRMW
| thebruce87m wrote:
| It's actually impressive to be this ill informed at this stage
| of the game.
|
| https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero/ele...
|
| > The simple answer is yes. The highest peak electricity demand
| in the UK in recent years was 62GW in 2002. Since then, the
| nation's peak demand has fallen by roughly 16% due to
| improvements in energy efficiency.
|
| > Even if we all switched to EVs overnight, we estimate demand
| would only increase by around 10%. So we'd still be using less
| power as a nation than we did in 2002, and this is well within
| the range the grid can capably handle.
|
| > In the US, the grid is equally capable of handling more EVs
| on the roads - by the time 80% of the US owns an EV, this will
| only translate into a 10-15% increase in electricity
| consumption.
|
| > More and more of our electricity now comes from renewable,
| green or clean energy sources, and zero-carbon power in
| Britain's electricity mix has grown from less than 20% in 2010
| to nearly 50% in 2021. With the growth in onshore and offshore
| wind farms and the closure of a number of coal plants,
| transport is now the most polluting thing the UK does as a
| nation.
| mdavid626 wrote:
| Don't forget, that EV-s can depreciate faster than ICE-s (mainly
| because of innovation and price cuts). So you can loose more
| money on EV-s than you think.
| nicce wrote:
| The value drop is huge and makes EVs pretty much never better
| economically. There are some edge cases but then those cars
| don't have range. Or don't survive in winter.
| mhandley wrote:
| Of course the flip side is that nearly-new low-mileage EVs
| can very good value economically.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| > makes EVs pretty much never better economically
|
| Then buy one of these "huge" depreciated ones and end up
| massively better economically? Why is this even an argument?
| nicce wrote:
| Because the car is worthless after the battery dies.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| Just as an ICE is "worthless" when the engine dies, I'm
| not sure where the argument is here unless you are going
| to claim they fail quickly in which case I'd be asking
| for data to back this up. Note that the data will have to
| show them lasting more than 8 years / 100,000 miles since
| that is a standard warranty these days.
| nicce wrote:
| Engine lasts usually longer than many other parts in the
| car.
|
| 100 000 miles is like 4 years of driving for anyone who
| drives a bit more. This is about 70% battery capacity in
| most cases. Your car is already useless in winter.
|
| With reduced capacity the cold hits even harder. And only
| way to fix it is to buy a new battery for a one-third
| price of the new car.
| namdnay wrote:
| I suspect innovation on EVs will also cause a lot of ICEs to
| depreciate. When the market is flooded with 5 year old teslas
| that will also drive down the cost of second hand corollas
| EA-3167 wrote:
| For context, there are a bit under 300 million IVE vehicles
| on the road in the US, compared to a bit over 3 million EV's.
|
| I'm sure the eventually there will be a shift, but I doubt
| it's going to be soon, and it certainly won't be a flood of 5
| year old Teslas.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| In the future, we're going to hit a point where most new
| cars sold will be EV's.
|
| At that point, most of the used cars available for sale
| will be ICE's. Do you think it's likely that the majority
| of new car drivers will prefer EV's but the majority of
| used car drivers will prefer ICE's? I don't. That effect
| should drive up the relative cost of a used EV relative to
| a used ICE.
| EA-3167 wrote:
| I agree that it's in the future, but the key is how far
| in the future? Because if it's 5 years in the future then
| it's very relevant to people buying cars today, but it's
| 20 years in the future... not so much.
|
| And as a purely academic point freed from the constraints
| of *when*, it's not interesting at all.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| The predictions for hitting the 80% EV mark range from
| 2028 - 2035.
| EA-3167 wrote:
| Well I think intuitively it should be obvious that we
| aren't getting from 3.3 million EV's in the US to 228
| million EV's in 3 years, so that really makes me question
| where you're coming from. Doubly so when ICE vehicles are
| still being sold at quite a pace, with 20 million more
| expected by 2030.
|
| Given all of that you'd need to see sales of EV's leap
| into the range of 23 million per year, every year from
| now until 2035 to reach 80% of what's on the road.
|
| If you just mean "x% of vehicles sold will be EV" then...
| it's a bit less absurd, but also much less meaningful in
| terms of the original discussion.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| I said "At that point, most of the used cars available
| for sale will be ICE's."
|
| So it should be obvious that I'm talking about the "X% of
| new vehicles sold will be EV" point.
| EA-3167 wrote:
| It's a less unlikely result, but you're still talking
| about going from around 7% of the market to 80% in as
| little as 3 years. That doesn't feel tethered to reality
| IMO. It seems to be a "line going up must continue along
| roughly the same slope" situation, which I don't think
| holds true in most cases.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Not in the US, no. But worldwide EV market share of
| annual sales is already over 20%. The rest of the world
| is much more cost sensitive than the US, so once EV's are
| cheaper than ICE I expect a rapid transition. It'll
| follow an S curve, and we haven't hit the second knee of
| the S curve.
|
| I doubt it'll be 3 years, but that seems a reasonable
| lower bounds to me.
| anovikov wrote:
| That indeed, is the biggest factor that hinders EV adoption
| today. People who bought electric cars 5 years ago, are massive
| bagholders today. And that could repeat with those buying
| today.
|
| Not a problem per se - it indicates a good thing: EVs are
| getting better and cheaper, quickly. But still doesn't help how
| badly it hits the owners' pockets.
| suraci wrote:
| as adoption of EV rises in society, there will be a time point,
| after that time, ICEs depreciate faster than EV
|
| the rapidly iterating EV market will severely impact the used
| car market
| nicce wrote:
| Funnily something odd happened in mid Covid and my diesel has
| lost only around 15% of its value over past 5 years. Now ten
| years old.
| mdavid626 wrote:
| It's funny to see how people jump on comments like this. Say
| something which goes against their religion-like beliefs and
| they have to proove that they are still right and the commenter
| wrong. ---- Of course in the long run this depreciation trend
| might change. Plus it's good for you if you buy an used EV. But
| still applies and should be said.
| nicce wrote:
| Used EV can be a decent risk gambling if the battery is out
| of warranty. But if you are lucky, it can be great.
| foobazgt wrote:
| I was originally worried about depreciation when I bought my EV
| six years ago, because I feared 5 years later all the cars on
| offer would have 500mi range and charge in half the time.
|
| I realized I generally hold my vehicles for life, (because it's
| the most cost effective thing you can do), and it really
| doesn't make any difference what happens as long as I'm happy
| with the features at the point I bought them. If you don't want
| to hold onto a vehicle for life, you should strongly be
| considering used or lease.
|
| Another thing to note is that EV depreciation is being wildly
| exaggerated. The resale value of my EV is right in line with
| other comparable ICEs (actually better, depending on the
| comparison). Most of the misleading reporting uses data from
| the COVID era where vehicle pricing was wildly whack. At that
| time I could sell my 3 year old car for more than I paid new -
| something I had never seen in my lifetime and suspect I will
| never see again.
| amimetic wrote:
| This article doesn't cover depreciation.
|
| Much harder to model but I'd assume quite important to consider.
| philjohn wrote:
| That's why the sensible buy their EV second hand. I got a 1
| year old demonstrator with low miles (3500 on the clock) for
| 30% less than buying a brand new one.
|
| With an OBD dongle to check the true state of the battery, it's
| not a risky proposition, and the 7 year warranty on the car and
| 8 year warranty on the battery means I have some peace of mind.
| slaw wrote:
| I bought a new vehicle for 25% off MSRP, 30% off for a used
| one is not a good deal.
| freediver wrote:
| Recent anecdote: I rented a Rivian R1S in Bay Area for a short
| trip to Santa Rosa. On the way back I charged at "Rivian
| adventure network" and the cost to charge was $0.68/kWh.
|
| Now, Rivian is a big car and this basically meant you are getting
| about 3 miles per dollar. A full 'charge' would have cost me
| nearly $100!
|
| But, an even bigger gasoline car - Lincoln Navigator - has 16
| MPG, and even with gas prices in CA (currently ~$5 per gallon)
| you are looking at 3.2 miles per dollar.
|
| I was shocked by that, especially knowing that CA has excess
| solar capacity. Why the heck is electricity for charging so
| expensive? (I pay around $0.15/kWh last time I checked for my
| home)
| DemPartyPooper wrote:
| It's all part of a "Green" scam? Do you really think ev'thing
| was about "the environment"? I have a bridge to sell to you.
| fooblaster wrote:
| rivian is overcharging a huge amount here versus base electric
| prices? I use L2 chargepoints for essentially all my charging
| and I average about 30 cents per kwh.
| nickphx wrote:
| Maybe the overhead of building and maintaining the
| infrastructure for vehicle charging?
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Why the heck is electricity so expensive?
|
| You're paying for charging, not electricity. They charge what
| the market will bear.
|
| Right now they can charge what they want because you don't have
| many alternatives.
|
| That said, CA electricity prices are high for a number of
| reasons. They have a lot of regulations for building anything.
| The red tape you have to work through to get anything built in
| CA is completely out of control, so anything requiring new
| construction (charging stations included) will have to pay off
| a lot of up front investment.
| amluto wrote:
| You're focused on entirely the wrong problem with California.
| The cost of electricity purchased from a private utility here
| is entirely out of control. That 68 cents is mostly going to
| a company like PG&E.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Tesla charges 45 cents and they are not subsidizing
| charging.
| csours wrote:
| Your comment is entirely consistent with the parent
| comment.
|
| 68/2=34
|
| If electricity costs 35c/unit then T could be making 10c
| and R could be making 33c.
|
| T could be choosing to take less profit.
| salynchnew wrote:
| 100%. The CPUC is a government entity and can technically
| dictate power prices. Unfortunately, state engergy
| conglomerates are very good at regulatory capture.
| amluto wrote:
| I did a bit of homework. PG&E publishes their rate
| schedules, of which they have many, and even a fairly
| cursory read strongly suggests that both the cost
| breakdowns and the times associated with time-of-use rates
| are, to put it mildly, divorced from any realistic
| estimation of actual costs. (Check out how inconsistent the
| schedules are from each other!)
|
| Here's the "Business Electric Vehicle" schedule, which
| appears to be the relevant one from EV charging stations:
|
| https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHE
| D...
|
| Roughly 38c/kWh peak and 16c/kWh "super off peak" plus
| $1.24/kWh monthly for maximum load. (So a supercharger
| would pay some $248/month for the privilege of being
| connected, and peak shaving can reduce this.)
|
| Here's the current residential schedule:
|
| https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHE
| D...
|
| Wow, 62c/kWh peak and 30c/kWh off-peak. At least the times
| kind of line up.
|
| Here's the legacy ones, with totally different off-peak
| times!
|
| https://www.pge.com/tariffs/assets/pdf/tariffbook/ELEC_SCHE
| D...
|
| Anyway, the morning-to-mid-afternoon rates in CA for public
| chargers are high but not outrageous.
| RangerScience wrote:
| a) doesn't track with how many Tesla chargers there are (and
| how quickly and frequently they've been being built over the
| last decade)
|
| b) considering how many fires have been started by power
| lines... yeah, please regulate
| sapiogram wrote:
| > and the cost to charge was $0.68/kWh.
|
| What in the world. In December, southern Norway had similar
| electricity prices for _two hours_ , and caused enough of an
| uproar that the government is still trying to live it down.
| Aurornis wrote:
| Charging prices are not the same as electricity prices.
|
| They're pricing it at what the market will bear for charging.
| They're recouping costs of building and running the charging
| station. Property and operational costs in CA are very high.
| UltraSane wrote:
| That isn't the price of electricity, it was the cost of using
| the charging point.
| lambda wrote:
| DC fast chargers tend to cost much more than level 2
| chargers. They have expensive equipment, more expensive
| electricity (intermittent high load is more expensive than
| more continuous lower levels, even for the same total power),
| and there tends to be a limited number of them so you want to
| encourage people to do level 2 charging when possible, and
| only DC fast charging on road trips when they really need it.
|
| So prices are much higher than for normal AC charging. Most
| of the charging you do should be AC charging at your home or
| work.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| I found it interesting because $0.68/kWh is roughly what EV
| charging has cost at charging stations here in Norway for the
| past few years.
|
| It fluctuates a bit though not much, and varies from network
| to network, but currently[1] the average is around $0.5/kWh
| if you exclude Tesla.
|
| Now, at home I pay about $0.1-0.2/kWh these days and less
| during summer.
|
| [1]: https://elbil.no/dette-koster-hurtiglading/
| fragmede wrote:
| For those of us not in your area in Norway, where does your
| electricity come from in the summer that it's that cheap?
| Ekaros wrote:
| Massive amounts of hydro. I am not sure about exact
| rates, but my guess is that purely for electricity it is
| somewhere in 2-4 eurocent range.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| About 90% of our energy production is hydro, and in
| addition our weather is such that few places are above
| 25C/80F during summer so it's not common to have or use
| AC.
|
| Hence not a lot of energy usage during summer compared
| with winter, as most heat their homes using electricity.
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| It's not, ladwp is ~20 cents per. Sounds like you used their
| charger and was taken for a ride, hah hah.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Aurornis gets to the point; there is a substantial cost (demand
| charges), from the utility, to ask for 200-400kw of current on
| demand when you plug in. Tesla uses Megapack batteries at some
| of their stations (Electrify America as well, using Tesla
| battereis) to "peak shave," whereby the batteries slowly
| charge, and then they blend output with utility power so the
| current demand peak is not so brutal when vehicles request fast
| DC charging.
|
| Renewable generated power is cheap, power delivery, control,
| and orchestration is not so much.
|
| https://www.utilitydive.com/news/eliminating-demand-charges-...
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/teslamotors/comments/ppgbxx/megapac...
|
| https://electrek.co/2020/09/17/tesla-batteries-60-electrify-...
|
| https://media.electrifyamerica.com/releases/48
| lgats wrote:
| charging near peak times impacts the price, especially in that
| area
| Someone1234 wrote:
| That seems problematic. If I am on a road-trip and need to
| charge up, am I meant to just park up for several hours until
| it is off-peak?
|
| EVs already ask more from drivers, namely around planning,
| and stopping times. But this is a whole other level of
| inconvenience.
|
| Gas stations don't do have peak/off-peak rates, even if they
| could.
| coldpie wrote:
| > If I am on a road-trip and need to charge up, am I meant
| to just park up for several hours until it is off-peak?
|
| No, you pay the extra $15 or whatever. If you're counting
| pennies, maybe charge as little as needed, so you can do
| more of the charge later during an off-peak time.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| My home electric bill just went up, with the utility company
| blaming it on their providers having increased prices due to
| increased demand.
|
| Apparently in some localities AI/datacenter electricity usage
| is already 10% of total usage, and expected to rapidly climb in
| coming years. It'd be nice if the cost of extra demand was met
| by those building the datacenters, but I'm not sure that's
| going to be the case.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| My electric provider recently silently raised our rates. My
| same usage was ~ $20 less a month last year. Honestly, I'm
| trying to get out of the 'scarcity mentality' of worrying
| about these sort of little day to day costs. I set my
| thermostat at a comfy level, and I game on my power hungry pc
| without restricting myself. It is what it is.
| iterateoften wrote:
| That is the part that I worry about the long term switch to
| everything electric.
|
| Already in SoCal where there is ample sun and plenty of room
| for cheap power, the electric rates have gone up 50% over 5
| years.
|
| Now natural gas is being phased out, gas cars are being phased
| out so electric companies have a monopoly to charge as much as
| they want unless there is competition for alternate energy
| sources.
|
| We are fast approaching in SoCal the average electric bill for
| non solar homes will be $500-$2000/mo
|
| And even if everyone gets solar the power company will just add
| fees so they retain the same profit so they can maintain
| infrastructure
| asdff wrote:
| They go up if you pay for private power. I pay like 16 cents
| for LADWP.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Fast charging market is a mess. Tesla is one of the cheaper
| ones but only slowly allowing other brands access.
|
| The rest of the competition is poorly maintained, new, under-
| deployed, under-utilized, or some combination of the 4, much of
| which results in awful pricing.
|
| Most EV owners home charge for most if not all charging. I have
| been driving EVs for 8 years and haven't used a fast charger in
| 18 months I think.
|
| If you home charge your operating costs are about 1/3 to 1/5 of
| ICE. So as a commuter option you can cut your operating costs
| vs gas by a lot with home charging.
|
| I pay $0.19/kWh in NY, which depending on your vehicle is 3-4
| miles in a decent sedan/hatch EV like Tesla 3/Y or Ioniq. So
| call it 18miles-per-dollar. Gas near me is running $3.49/gal,
| use some blending 25mpg for a sedan/hatch ICE and get 7miles-
| per-dollar.
|
| Obviously a different issue for renting vehicles, road trips,
| etc.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Rates vary depending on time, location, demand etc. I regularly
| charge my car all over the Bay Area on the Tesla network and
| it's between $0.45 to $0.55 per kWH. I have an electric home
| residential electricity plan and the cheapest I get electricity
| at home varies between $0.34 and $0.39 during off peak hours.
| During peak hours it's actually the same for meto charge at a
| supercharger as it is at home.
| schmookeeg wrote:
| I hope you understand that this anedcote is something like "I
| rented a car, I bought $9.50/gallon fuel, and then did the math
| on how many fewer miles that fuel got me vs when I buy fuel at
| home for sane prices" yeah? :)
|
| $0.68 is nuts. I am on my fourth EV, and currently I will
| expect 0.35-0.50 on my frequent road trips between CA and
| OR/WA. I also tend to favor the Electrify America stations
| since they're free for 30mn for me to use. In my car, that 30mn
| will take me from 20% charge to ~85% charge for $0.
|
| Once the free-charging sugar high is over for a lot of EV
| owners, I think they will start doing the math too and prefer,
| strongly, to charge at home. The other problem is there are no
| posted rates for the charge, and once you glide into a charger
| down to 30mi range, you're probably not going to pick up and go
| to a different one.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| To be fair, I have driven EVs exclusively for 8 years and I
| wouldn't really recommend them as a rental car in the current
| state to a non-EV driver.
|
| I don't even know if I'd rent one myself as an experienced EV
| users. I've done it once myself and found it quite stressful.
|
| There's just too many ways for it to go wrong with an
| unfamiliar EV in an unfamiliar area.
|
| Rental company gives you a slightly different model than you
| expected with lower range, battery at lower state of charge
| than anticipated, the guess-o-meter range estimate is overly
| optimistic and the car burns through range too fast, chargers
| in region are worse/busier/etc than you expect, etc.
| schmookeeg wrote:
| Yeah I've wanted to and the "bring it back fully charged"
| requirement is hopeless. I rent for convenience and have
| zero interest in solving this problem for the agencies.
|
| "bring back >80%" would be easier and tempt me on certain
| missions where I have the free time to navigate Plugshare
| and figure it out.
|
| In thinking about it this morning, this is probably where
| one could use the "prepaid fuel" upsell option. I might
| consider that next time I rent something away from home.
| There have been some really dirt-cheap "manager specials"
| that are apparently code language for "EV rental we can't
| rent out otherwise" -- like $6, $8/day cheap. :)
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Oh its not even the "bring it back 100% or 80%" or
| whatever for me.
|
| I rented a car in Europe , I had to drive 165mi exactly.
| I reserved what I expected to be a ~260mi range model -
| tons of buffer!
|
| They actually gave me a ~240mi range model that was maybe
| 70% charged. So now I'm thinking OK very very close but
| I'll charge along the route if needed.. there's a few
| rest stops on the highway!
|
| Unfortunately guess-o-meter was very optimistic, the in
| car nav did no charge routing plus gave zero "you aren't
| going to make it" warning, and finally a non-trivial
| factor - the local traffic was going about 75mph+ so
| after some spirited driving I realized I was in trouble.
|
| The local chargers were on charge networks that either
| didn't work via apps (required NFC cards I did not
| possess), or took credit cards directly but not US cards,
| or required pre-loading Euros into the app but gave
| obtuse app errors with US credit cards.
|
| The chargers themselves were in a sorry state and needed
| to be remotely rebooted. Finally on the phone with Ionity
| they remotely activated a charging session and gave me a
| courtesy charge so I could make it to hotel. The courtesy
| charge probably cost me 1 hour and $75 in overseas cell
| phone use.
|
| On return discussing with the rental agency they told me
| they do have NFC charging cards but customers had trouble
| so they don't give them out anymore, lol.
|
| Another fun fact for Americans - while Teslas in Europes
| use the same plug as non-Teslas (unlike here), in some
| countries they still maintain Tesla-only charging
| stations!
| KallDrexx wrote:
| Electrical charging on the road is expensive, because those are
| fast chargers, and not normal chargers a home would have.
|
| A ~7kw charger you'd install in a home or a business has is
| relatively cheap wiring electrically, and the stalls are not
| that expensive.
|
| Rivian adventure network uses chargers that have to output
| 220kw into the car. This requires significantly higher cost for
| getting electricity to each stall, the stall needs to be able
| to handle that much power transfer, and they must be actively
| cooled (since that much power causes a significant amount of
| heat). They also require a decent amount of maintenance.
|
| These stalls can cost upwards of $100k per stall for
| installation.
|
| This is all done so you can charge in ~20 minutes (as opposed
| to several hours it would take at a normal 7kwh one).
|
| That's why fast chargers cost significantly more. They also
| need higher profit margins to make back the installation and
| maintenance cost depending on utilization rates they expect,
| otherwise installing these chargers doesn't make a lot of sense
| for businesses.
| ooterness wrote:
| Please use correct units.
|
| Kilowatts (kW) measure energy per time. Fast chargers (i.e.,
| level 2, level 3) are rated in kilowatts.
|
| Kilowatt-hours (kWh) measure total energy. If you charge at 7
| kW for two hours, then that's 14 kWh in total.
| KallDrexx wrote:
| my bad, I'll update
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| > They also need higher profit margins to make back the
| installation and maintenance cost depending on utilization
| rates they expect, otherwise installing these chargers
| doesn't make a lot of sense for businesses.
|
| While I respect the right of the business to make its own
| decisions about what the payback time ought to be, I'd also
| guess that other than replacing the very cheap jack/socket
| and the payment tablet, these devices will last decades. The
| only reason they need high profit margins is a desire for a
| short payback time, much, much shorter than the likely life
| of the device.
| fragmede wrote:
| Given the fact that the other plug is basically the
| standard at this point and the fact that Rivan's doing the
| "Rivan Adventure Network" for Rivan vehicles, what's the
| usage? If they're only getting used 10% of the time, some
| back of the envelope math says charging $0.61 per kWh _is_
| the five year to payback timeline.
|
| What's an acceptable timeline to RoI for you that a
| business owner is allowed to have?
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| From my POV, if a business owner buys a piece of
| equipment that can entirely reasonably be expected to
| last 20 years, the timeline for ROI is on the order of 20
| years. Maybe 10, maybe 15.
|
| But I'm not insisting that this a hard and fast rule;
| rather, I'm suggesting that "a 5 year ROI" is also not a
| hard and fast rule.
| fragmede wrote:
| Is there anything resembling a guarantee Rivan will be
| around in twenty years? Not just a "yeah probably", but
| something solid that would make you feel good about
| placing a $100k+ bet on them being around?
| ballenf wrote:
| But shouldn't these fast chargers be doing much more "volume"
| of charges on a per-hour basis? I.e., if they can pump 3x the
| kWh shouldn't that somewhat alleviate the need to charge more
| per kWh?
| nemothekid wrote:
| No, for most people who own an electric car, its cheaper
| (ex. charging at off-peak, and slower) and more convenient
| to charge at home. I only use those super chargers on road
| trips which isn't my normal commute.
| chrisbolt wrote:
| > That's why fast chargers cost significantly more.
|
| Utilities also charge higher per-kW rates due to the high
| demand to be able to charge each car at 250 or more kW.
|
| https://pluginamerica.org/understanding-demand-charges/
| IneffablePigeon wrote:
| We are paying down the capex of installing chargers, grid
| connections, etc etc.
|
| It will come down over time.
| m463 wrote:
| People say you are paying for the convenience of fast charging.
|
| But that isn't all the picture. (in california)
|
| PG&E has honed its regulatory capture skills and has some of
| the highest electricity costs anywhere.
|
| The _average_ cost of electricity is 33c /kwh for california
| customers, and as you use more it can easily reach 50c/kwh.
| There are some areas where PG&E is not the electric company,
| and they top out at 14c/kwh for electricity.
|
| The ONLY good part I can contrive from this situation is that
| residential solar is "practical" and the demand is driving
| development of democratized power generation.
| seafoam wrote:
| Is this a PG&E thing or a California thing ?
|
| Put differently, where in California can one top out at
| 14c/kwh for electricity ?
| m463 wrote:
| > 14c/kwh
|
| santa clara, palo alto, etc
|
| EDIT: sorry 17.5 c/kwh? pg&e average is also higher:
|
| https://www.siliconvalleypower.com/residents/rates-and-fees
| waffletower wrote:
| Not all EV models depreciate at the same rate, compare a Tesla
| Model 3 to a Nissan Leaf and draw your own conclusions.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| It doesn't really make sense to bake depreciation into this
| sort of comparison. It's a loss on paper only until you realize
| it, so it should be its own separate item. That way you can
| factor it in (or not) depending on whether you plan to keep the
| car or sell it.
| ojbyrne wrote:
| After this sentence: "Are they truly the environmentally friendly
| option they claim to be?" I expected to see at least some
| comparison of the effect on the environment.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| They have gotten a lot more environmentally friendly as we've
| started to retire coal plants for natural gas, but the
| uncomfortable thing folks don't want to admit is that ICE cars
| have cleaned up their emissions a lot, and a big source of
| pollution generated from driving now days is actually
| particulates from the _tires_. That 's something that's at
| least as bad, if not worse with EVs given they weigh much more
| than your standard ICE vehicle and thus have more tire wear.
| ojbyrne wrote:
| I understand there are lots of factors involved in the
| comparison, I just found it weird that the article used that
| sentence, and then never mentioned anything about
| environmental comparisons after that.
| theandrewbailey wrote:
| The labels on all these charts are almost impossible to read in
| dark mode.
| UltraSane wrote:
| IMHO elective cars don't make sense to buy unless you can charge
| it at home almost always.
| duxup wrote:
| That's my plan. I don't really want one unless I can plug it in
| at home, but I also want a plug in hybrid van and ... neither
| Toyota nor Honda make one.
| dangus wrote:
| I keep hearing this as if everyone buys cars purely based on
| cost and economics.
|
| EVs are held to this higher standard as if no other types of
| cars are purchased out of want more than need.
|
| Do off-road trucks driven in suburban areas make sense to buy?
|
| Do suburbanites driving F-150s but not doing any work with them
| make sense when a minivan is more economical as a family
| hauler?
|
| Does a two door sports car make sense?
|
| Does a big SUV make sense when you don't take it to Home Depot
| every day and you would be just fine driving a small car like a
| Corolla?
|
| Do cars with extraneous features like massage seats and airbag
| suspension make sense?
|
| Jeep Wranglers? Ford Raptor? Dodge Charger Scat Pack?
|
| What if the owners just like to drive EVs and aren't buying it
| to save money on fuel cost?
| slt2021 wrote:
| some people have option to charge in office garage (often for
| free)
| bickfordb wrote:
| There are a lot of semi-consumable ICE components that these
| comparisons often omit: mass airflow sensors, oxygen sensors,
| gaskets/seals, emissions components, starter batteries. These
| often cost in the $100-500 range/ea and the labor to replace them
| is at minimum $100/hr in my locality.
| alphabettsy wrote:
| Those definitely can be issues, but I can't remember the last
| time, if ever, I had any of those other than a starter battery
| replaced before 100k miles.
| Ekaros wrote:
| Don't some electric cars also have 12V batteries? At least
| Porsche Taycan had one. And they can go bad and also might be
| drained more than on ICE.
| misiti3780 wrote:
| I have owned two different Teslas since 2020 and the only
| maintenance I have had to perform is new tires, tire rotation and
| adding wiper fluid.
| PTRFRLL wrote:
| > EVs typically require 30% less maintenance than their ICE
| counterparts. In terms of cost
|
| followed by
|
| > Consumer Reports conducted a comprehensive survey... their
| findings confirm that BEVs and PHEVs typically incur maintenance
| costs that are approximately half that of ICE vehicles over the
| first 200,000 miles.
|
| Those numbers seem at odds with each other.
|
| Anecdotally, after 20k miles with a Tesla Model Y, the only
| maintenance required so far has been windshield wiper fluid.
| ericpauley wrote:
| I have a Honda Civic. 50k miles in and I've only spent on oil
| changes (and related minor work), which have been less than the
| cost of new tires and inspections. The 30-50% range sounds
| reasonable in this context.
| PaulDavisThe1st wrote:
| 200k on a Honda Fit. Oil, tire, wiper changes. 1 repair which
| cost about $2600.
| everdrive wrote:
| Given this analysis it sounds like the sweet spot is getting a
| used-but-still good EV. EVs suffer from extraordinary loss in
| resale value, almost on the scale of luxury vehicles. This
| actually works out though, if you can get something like an old
| Nissan LEAF for approximately $10k or so. The aggressive
| devaluation in price tips the scales of this analysis -- but of
| course not everyone can go and get a good deal on a used EV. (and
| of course, they need to have a place to charge it at home.)
| slt2021 wrote:
| >EVs suffer from extraordinary loss in resale value
|
| do they? when I was shopping for EV, used Tesla mY were not
| much cheaper than new ones, especially in my needed
| configuration (3rd row seat). I ended up buying new to get
| federal and state tax credits that have made it no brainer to
| buy new.
|
| if you can qualify for tax incentives (federal and state) then
| buy new, otherwise buy used
|
| imo Teslas depreciate more based on the year (meaning features
| and design/hardware inside), not the actual mileage, because
| EVs dont have components with mechanical wear & tear
| entropicdrifter wrote:
| I picked up a used 2021 Kona EV in the Ultimate trim that had
| been a corporate lease previously. 28K miles on it. The
| original cost for it new was around $46K. I got it for
| ~$18,500 after the $4,000 federal used EV tax credit.
|
| I think part of the depreciation for the Kona in particular
| is due to its lackluster DC Fast charging top speeds, but if
| you plan to charge at home 99% of the time it's a phenomenal
| deal.
| everdrive wrote:
| Tesla and Nissan definitely are not equivalent in resale
| value, but you raise a good point; some brands are doing
| better than others in this case.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| This is a better analysis than most.
|
| Most analyses by Consumer Reports etc try to compare 5 year
| costs. But when you try and do that, your answer becomes
| dominated by the trade-in value of a 5 year old EV vs a 5 year
| old ICE. That's a really hard, highly political task.
|
| Lifetime cost eliminates that and gets down to true costs.
|
| The 5 year value of the car shouldn't be in the calculations IMO.
| It has no impact on lifetime costs -- since it's subtracted from
| the costs of the original owner and added to the costs of the
| second zero, netting to 0.
|
| Also, people buying 5 year old cars tend to be more cost
| sensitive than those buying new cars. The value of a used car is
| primarily in the cost savings, so as consumers become more
| familiar with the costs & benefits of EV's, the trade in value
| should converge on a price which makes lifetime cost analysis and
| 5 year cost tradeoff analysis give similar answers.
| frumper wrote:
| Nowadays, people probably haven't paid off their car in 5 years
| either. Average new car loan is 68 month term.
|
| https://tucson.com/news/nation-world/business/personal-finan...
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Anecdotally, many people start considering trading in their
| cars once their loan is no longer underwater, not after it's
| paid off. Myself, I'm hoping to enjoy not having car payments
| as long as I can...
| spicybbq wrote:
| Yes, the used EV market is still young. The oldest Model Ys are
| from 2020, and Model 3s go back to 2017. Consumers do not have
| much experience with used EVs, so they are cautious and prices
| are low. As time goes by, if older EVs prove to be reliable,
| used prices will go up. There is already evidence that battery
| replacement is rare:
|
| https://www.motortrend.com/features/ev-battery-lifespan-degr...
| garaetjjte wrote:
| They won't be when they will get taxed. Governments won't just
| give up revenue from fuel tax.
| OtherShrezzing wrote:
| >Average Mid-Range EV Cost: EUR45,000
|
| That's a fairly expensive mid-range EV.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| For me, it's not just a question of cost, it's also a question
| resiliency. I am totally willing to 'spend', making a financially
| sub-optimal decision if it means that I'm reducing my dependence
| on external inputs to live my life.
|
| When I think of my 'forever home' I intend to have enough solar
| capacity to cover my needs, even in winter, a battery bank, a
| simple, no frills, dead reliable ev (toyota get on this!), an
| ebike, and even stuff like a greenhouse and aquaponics setup.
| Think solarpunk show home, lol.
|
| Now, will the above have a financial return on investment?
| Probably not. Will it help me sleep at night, comfortable in the
| knowledge that I'm at least a _little_ more insulated from
| unexpected events than the average person.
| lolc wrote:
| I think reliability was one important part missed by the
| analysis. If the car has to go to the shop, no matter how cheap
| or insignificant the job, that's still half a day lost.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| One thing this article doesn't account for: American dealership
| model.
|
| I was fully onboard with buying a new ICE car because it was
| supposed to be cheaper. Enter the American car salesman.
| Dealerships refused to give you a final estimate without you
| walking in into the dealership. When you did, they often want to
| sell you cars that they have on the lot over what you want. The
| feature packages they have are designed to maximize money: want
| blind spot detector, you need to buy premium leather seats as
| well. Then finally once you decide on everything, the car is $10k
| more expensive and financing is very scummy if you don't do the
| math yourself.
|
| Compare that to Tesla. You can schedule an online test drive.
| When you arrive your car is prepared and preloaded with a route,
| you check in and someone will verify your id and. Answer any of
| your questions. Once you're done with the drive, you can order
| the car online. The price you see is the price you pay. They
| don't finance the cars themselves, they field quotes for you and
| get you the best APR. And occasionally they'll have 0% APR on
| financing.
|
| In the end, it cost me less money to buy a EV than an ICE, for
| the same amount of specs. All because of the American dealership
| model.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| The last time I bought an ICE car 15 years ago, I browsed
| online, found some cars I was interested in, emailed their
| sales team and said 'I'm choosing between x,y, and z, give me
| your best _out the door_ offer and you 'll get my business'. A
| couple dealerships tried to pull the 'come in and let's talk'
| but a few just gave me a price. We went back and forth for a
| day or so and I eventually got them to a price I was happy
| with.
|
| I then replied 'Ok, I'm coming this friday with a cashier's
| check, if the price isn't _exactly_ what we agreed when I get
| there, I 'm walking out the door'.
|
| Best car buying experience I've ever had. You just gotta set
| boundaries and enforce them.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Dealers right now would rather not sell than put up with
| boundaries. Unfortunately the experience has gotten only
| worse.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| Then they won't sell to me. My car is 18 years old, but I
| wfh and don't drive much. If my car died and dealers didn't
| want to play ball, I could easily manage. There are lots of
| options these days. I could buy something private party,
| swap a lease, or even just rent a car and take transit
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| I have done the same, but it still takes a few hours of your
| time.
|
| In comparison, you can buy a Rivian or Tesla from your couch
| in 15min on your phone, and picking it up at the service
| center is another 15min at most, with zero employees trying
| to screw you.
|
| I don't see the point in wasting my time dealing with a
| parasitic middleman in 2025. It would be nice if we could buy
| cars that cost less than $80k that easily and avoid a company
| led by a guy that makes Nazi salutes, though.
| legitster wrote:
| 140,000k to 200,000k to break-even just on operating costs is
| insane. That's much longer than I would expect. Keep in mind some
| of these models would also lose 60% in depreciation in that time.
|
| On the other hand, I would like a realistic cost-of-ownership for
| used EVs. You can pick them up cheap as chips and that would make
| the equation very favorable.
| dangus wrote:
| The article says kilometers, not miles. That's about
| 86,000-125,000 miles.
|
| I don't think that sounds insane. Every car I buy new I intend
| to keep for at least 100,000 miles. Otherwise, buying new is
| something of a waste of money in itself.
|
| And like you said, used changes the equation quite a bit.
| legitster wrote:
| Sure, but the difference is the selling feature is the
| economy!
|
| OP is presenting nearly identical cars. If you just step back
| and think of it as an upgrade that won't save you money for
| 8-10 years, and will make your car's resale value _lower_.
| Add in the fact that the average buyer is financing, the
| savings are going to get eaten by the interest.
|
| If you do the same math for a hybrid or PHEV, the numbers
| come out much better.
| xnx wrote:
| Article doesn't seem to mention tire cost or resale value at all?
|
| There was a much more detailed analysis (including insurance,
| etc.) of ICE vs. BEV on HN previously.
| frumper wrote:
| We have an ICE mid-sized SUV and a model Y. Costco installed
| tires are within a few dollars of each other. There were more
| options for the ICE vehicle was the main difference. There are
| a lot of variables to really make a detailed analysis, it's a
| personal thing. If you ask 100 people on HN how much
| electricity costs at their home, you'll probably get close to
| 100 different answers.
| xnx wrote:
| Good data point. Tire sets are similar prices, but EV tires
| tend to have to be changed more frequently because of vehicle
| weights and higher acceleration (driver dependent).
| fragmede wrote:
| Depends on the EV and how you want to compare. Tesla's are
| running 19's stock which are gonna be a whole lot pricier
| than, eg a Honda Civic's 14's, no matter the rating (of
| which the Tesla's is gonna be higher rates).
| waffletower wrote:
| Electricity costs vary region to region, as well as the
| proportion of clean energy sources that power the local grid. I
| am lucky to live in the US Northwest where there is a very high
| percentage of hydro-electric and wind powering our grid and our
| electricity costs are comparatively low (now ~$0.20 per kwh) --
| note the large number of data centers headquartered in Central
| Oregon. Also note, the region (Oregon and Washington principally)
| is a net exporter of electricity. I drove a Nissan Leaf for 8 1/2
| years, and have driven a Tesla Model Y for 4, and the cost of
| ownership for both vehicles are significantly less than any ICE
| vehicle I have ever operated. Surprisingly, the Tesla is actually
| somewhat more efficient in my experience than the 2012 Leaf,
| particularly on the highway, despite weighing considerably more.
| I almost always (95%+) charge at home. Admittedly, our
| electricity costs were significantly lower (~$0.12) for many
| years before the recent rate hikes.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| In Washington, at $0.10 per kWh, over 200k miles, the Model Y
| at $42k was the same cost as a Highlander or equivalent $50k to
| $60k car. Due to higher tire costs and depreciation. And
| Washington has some of the highest gas prices in the country.
|
| However, Model Y was still preferable to buy since it's so
| convenient to charge at home, and it is convenient to never
| have to do oil changes and all that crap. Plus it drives much
| better than a Highlander or equivalent ICE. If only it had
| CarPlay.
|
| But if my electricity costs were like California or NYC, I
| would easily opt for a hybrid ICE.
| jp191919 wrote:
| Some places in eastern Washington only pay $.02/kwh! I'm in a
| medium sized city in the northwest I pay $.08/kwh. It's
| substantially cheaper to operate my Model 3 than my previous
| BMW 335d ($.02/mile vs $.16/mile)
| vel0city wrote:
| > Some places in eastern Washington only pay $.02/kwh! I'm in
| a medium sized city in the northwest I pay $.08/kwh.
|
| Is that after delivery costs? Half my bill is paying for the
| delivery.
| throwaway_20357 wrote:
| Which geography was this analysis made for? It seems model market
| share is for the US while prices are listed in EUR in the first
| part and USD in the latter?
|
| A German perspective: Households pay between $0.30 and $0.40 per
| kWh, Diesel is at around $1.60-$1.70/l and it is safe to assume
| 6l/100km for a Diesel car. I was never able to consistently drive
| an EV at < 20 kWh/100km, in Winter it's more 25kWH/100km for
| certain ones (I look at you Mercedes EQB) it was closer to 30kWH.
|
| To account for the full cost of car ownership I can recommend the
| methodology of the ADAC (German Automobile Club, Germany only:
| https://assets.adac.de/Autodatenbank/Autokosten/autokostenue...).
| mtrovo wrote:
| I appreciate the discussion about total cost of ownership. My
| family is looking into our first EV mainly because of the
| impression of lower running costs. However, the more I read, the
| more I realize that a fair comparison is far more complex than
| just fuel savings.
|
| One thing I keep wondering, especially with the high break-even
| numbers, is what about battery life and replacement costs. That
| could really wreck any savings forecast, or am I missing
| something? Also, our family does not drive a huge amount each
| year, so figuring out if we would even hit that break-even point
| is still on the table.
|
| I also noticed depreciation for EVs can be more aggressive, so
| buying a 2-year-old car could, in theory, significantly lower
| your break-even point compared to a new one, without increasing
| maintenance costs too much.
| asdff wrote:
| The thing with EVs is that there is so much uncertainty in the
| platform. Is this an actual reliable car or will it crap out
| due to some byzantine electronics issue in 5 years?
|
| Meanwhile a 4 cylinder dead simple economy gas car is pretty
| much commodified by automakers at this point. You change the
| oil, timing belt, brakes, tires, and live somewhere where they
| don't salt the roads that car can probably run for half a
| century making 30mpg costing you pennies in comparison in
| insurance and registration because its small and slow. It is a
| known quantity. 4 cylinder ice with same old 4spd auto or 5spd
| manual is a solved science like a hammer or a tube amplifier is
| at this point.
| hgomersall wrote:
| Battery life seems to be looking good on modern cars - better
| than expected by all accounts. I've been looking at the UK
| second hand market for ~2-3 year old cars (mostly Autotrader)
| for Kia Niros, and the hybrid and electric variants are pretty
| indistinguishable on price, which makes EVs far more
| attractive. I don't know if this is true for other car types.
| philjohn wrote:
| Only problem with the Niro is that depending on which year
| you get, it's not possible to get a proper read on how much
| the battery has degraded with an OBD dongle - something the
| E-GMP based cars in Kia and Hyundai's lineup allow you to see
| quite easily.
|
| But yes, my car is now almost 2 years old (Kia EV6 AWD GT
| Line) and so far when its lost around 600Wh of capacity, so
| less than 1%.
| entropicdrifter wrote:
| I just picked up a used 2021 Hyundai Kona EV back in December.
| It had been leased for a corporate fleet and only had 28K miles
| on it. After the federal tax credit for used EVs ($4000, paid
| directly to the dealership so they just applied it like a
| discount), it was less than _half_ of the original price of the
| car.
|
| I reckon a good chunk of the depreciation is due to the
| original federal tax credit of $7,500 for new BEVs was also
| applied to the lease costs, so all-in-all roughly half of the
| ~$20,000 of depreciation was from tax credits in my case.
| system7rocks wrote:
| Maintenance is an interesting piece to consider to this. I also
| just love the quiet of my EV. Got it used and paid cash, still
| under $100k miles. We charge at home for the most part and have
| experienced broken charging systems.
|
| Some of these EVs are dead simple to maintain - are the tires
| inflated? Did you get the breaks checked? Is it charging okay?
|
| Obviously, if you start having electrical system problems, it can
| get pricey. Nice to have a warranty of some kind then.
|
| But the same is true of ICE vehicles if you start leaking oil,
| have electronics fail, and so on. I still remember spending so
| much time getting a motherboard component replaced in a 1994 Ford
| Thunderbird that was exhibiting bizarre behavior.
|
| Just had my trusted 2009 Mazda 5 blow a head gasket outside of
| Santa Fe over the winter break. I'm grieving. But no, I'm not
| going to buy a new engine for that car and probably had spent too
| much already on it over the years. Sigh.
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| _> Just had my trusted 2009 Mazda 5 blow a head gasket outside
| of Santa Fe over the winter break. I 'm grieving. But no, I'm
| not going to buy a new engine for that car and probably had
| spent too much already on it over the years. Sigh._
|
| ...why would you need a new engine if your head gasket fails?
| Did you keep driving after it failed?
| system7rocks wrote:
| We were on the interstate. It happened so quick. Coolant
| somehow mixed in with the oil, engine seized. The car had
| almost 180k miles on it. It is what it is.
| eightyfive wrote:
| Apples/oranges/not my car, but I had a similar situation in
| my 2011 Impreza and was staring at a $3500 repair bill for
| the head gasket. If you get the work done, there's a litany
| of other things you really ought to do while you're there
| (water pump, belts, etc). Sure, it's not a new engine, and
| it's certainly less than a new engine would cost, but either
| would be nearly as much or more than the vehicle is actually
| worth. For a 16 year old vehicle, almost any repair other
| than basic tires/brakes/etc can be "fatal" if you're not
| doing your own wrenching. If you do opt to pay, you're
| gambling on what _else_ might be lurking around the corner.
| salynchnew wrote:
| I know people hate electric-ICE combos, but charging at home for
| next to nothing, running 90% of local trips on battery only, and
| not having any charging downtime if we go somewhere that hasn't
| caught up with EV charging is pretty nice.
| schmookeeg wrote:
| I am on record as loving our BMW i3 and its Range Extender. :)
|
| The German over-engineering of stupid things has been it's
| primary downfall, not the ICE+EV combo. We are approaching the
| end of our extended warranty period, and we have had two
| failures -- electrically actuated rear trunk latch and our
| electrically actuated charge-port-cover latch. Both ridiculous
| and unnecessary. Both about $4K at the dealership, with no real
| viable alternatives. Unfortunately, we are likely to replace it
| due to the obscene repairs of minor and unnecessary components.
|
| I don't think there is anything else similar coming out. We
| won't be considering the RAMCharger, which is at least the same
| idea :)
| tashoecraft wrote:
| Whilst I understand the intention in comparing the average ICE to
| EV in order to get the larger upfront cost for the EV, I've never
| known anyone to shop like that. This argument was used against
| the Prius as well, "it's a 40k car where you could get something
| comparable for 25k, you'll never make up the cost of gas between
| the two". But that's not how the high majority of people shop for
| cars. They figure out their budget, then go around that. If
| you're in the market and can afford a 40k car, it's unlikely
| you'd go and get a 25k one, and vice versa, if you're looking for
| a 25k car, you're not going to go spend 40k because it's an EV.
|
| So while it's nice to known that a more expensive EV will recoup
| its costs compared to a lower priced IC, for most, they're
| looking at a 40kIC vs a 40k EV, (post savings, rebates, etc) that
| hit the monthly payment they're looking for, and in that
| instance, the EV is going to win 99% of the time.
| DamnInteresting wrote:
| I own a Chevy Bolt EV, one of the less expensive EVs on the US
| market (after tax rebates, it was about $30k USD). I purchased it
| in May 2017, so I've had almost 8 years with this car.
|
| I feel like a lot of these write ups overlook other advantages of
| EVs. Some of my favorite things about this car:
|
| * It is very quiet, inside and out
|
| * It is very torquey, moving instantly when I push the
| accelerator
|
| * One-pedal driving is very pleasant
|
| * Charging at home feels like an incredible luxury (which it is)
|
| Occasionally I am required to drive my wife's Corolla, and
| despite being in good repair, it feels like driving an old
| jalopy; it vibrates constantly, it smells vaguely of exhaust, it
| moves forward on its own when I release the brakes, and it
| doesn't slow down much when I release the accelerator.
|
| There is also the time factor. Stopping at the gas station costs
| time, oil changes cost time, etc. I had to refill the windshield
| washer fluid a few days ago, and the tires need to be rotated
| occasionally, but that's about it so far.
|
| It is true that EVs depreciate quickly, but for someone like me,
| who intends to drive it until the wheels come off, that's of
| little concern. Also, due to the battery's thermal management, I
| have not observed any meaningful loss in average range yet
| (though I did receive the battery replacement recall a few years
| into my ownership, so the battery is only ~5 years old).
|
| Your mileage may vary, as they say.
| the_gastropod wrote:
| I picked up a second-hand Bolt a few months ago, and couldn't
| agree more. It's such an underrated car. I paid $13k for a 2023
| base model. Couldn't be happier with it.
| variaga wrote:
| I have a 1.5-year old VW id.4.
|
| I cosign all of this (except the one-pedal driving - I prefer
| to leave mine in separate accel+brake mode), particularly the
| home charging - if you can get a home charger installed, it is
| a real game-changer. As compared to my previous (ICE) car, I
| never have to leave early because I'm low on gas & need to stop
| and fill up (or even have to go out of my way to fill up) and
| day-to-day I have _less_ range anxiety with my EV because I
| always leave the house with a full charge.
|
| After the one-time expense of getting a charger installed it's
| both cheaper and _more pleasant_ to operate than my old ICE.
| the_gastropod wrote:
| I don't have a garage, and the whole "getting a charger
| installed" thing was a bit of a deterrent for me getting an
| EV. But after getting one, I've realized Level 1 charging on
| a standard 110V outlet is more than sufficient for my needs.
| On the Bolt, you add ~4 miles per hour of charging. So if you
| drive, on average, under ~50 miles per day (which most
| Americans do), a level 1 charger should easily handle your
| needs.
| eckesicle wrote:
| I've also got an EV and I love it.
|
| I installed solar panels at home and the car is now pretty much
| completely free to drive during those summer months where I get
| enough sun to supply my house and the car. I think these panels
| had an ROI of around 4 years for me, which is crazy good.
| philjohn wrote:
| I bought a 1 year old low mileage Kia EV6 (AWD GT Line) - 3500
| miles on the odometer.
|
| This means I avoided the first year depreciation.
|
| But having an EV also allowed me onto the Intelligent Octopus Go
| tariff ... which gives the entire house electricity for 7p per
| kWh during intelligent dispatches (half hour blocks where the
| grid is greenest and if you're plugged in they'll charge your
| car) but also between the hours of 23:30 and 05:30.
|
| Because I have a PV array + battery storage, and can charge from
| the grid, in the winter I charge the battery overnight, and most
| days get to 23:30 with charge left in the battery because the
| Solar has been enough to keep me topped up during the day. So my
| cost for electricity over the winter, because I have an EV, was
| about 6.9p per kWh.
|
| This all factors in to make it a no-brainer for me. Driving for
| around 2p per mile (versus 20p per mile in my previous car, a 1l
| Focus Ecoboost), but also my household usage even in the winter
| is much cheaper. And then during the summer I build up a big
| buffer of credit by exporting excess Solar.
| jopsen wrote:
| Besides cost, joy, the environment, home charging, another often
| overlooked benefit is: resilience to an oil crisis.
|
| Unlike the US, Europe doesn't have a shale gas industry. What if
| there is a conflict in the middle east, or worse.
|
| Sadly, the world feels a lot less peaceful these days.
| okanat wrote:
| It can be significantly hard to get home charging in Europe,
| however. There is also a much better, more environmentally
| friendly option available in Europe: extensive public
| transport. Moreover cities are dense here. So a bike is more
| useful and much quicker than waiting in tens of traffic lights.
| Average income of Europeans is lower too. So I think it is way
| better to invest in better public transport is a much better
| deal for everybody.
| rfwhyte wrote:
| Another factor worth considering is that the cost of fuel is
| almost certainly going to go up substantially over the next
| decade due to dwindling oil supplies, ever increasing fuel taxes
| and possible global supply-shocks, but the cost per KWH of
| renewable power generation is effectively halving every year or
| two, so while the cost per KM traveled with an ICE vehicle will
| most likely range from remaining relatively the same to
| increasing substantially, the cost per passenger KM traveled of
| electric vehicles will likely range from staying relatively flat
| to decreasing substantially.
|
| Personally I'd much rather buy an (electric) vehicle that at
| least has the potential for operating costs to decline year over
| year, than an (ICE) vehicle that's almost certainly going to see
| operating costs increase year over year as fuel prices inevitably
| go up.
| m463 wrote:
| if you want a math-checks-out cheap EV, just get an older leaf.
|
| * less than $3k *
|
| use it around town for grocery-getting.
|
| It won't have the original range, but for convenience it is very
| nice. Never visit the gas station. charge with 110. You can leave
| the AC on while you're in the store. very few things to maintain.
|
| https://sfbay.craigslist.org/search/cta?auto_make_model=niss...
|
| EDIT: actually a couple years back ~2015 or so, a 3-4 year old
| leaf could go for $7-8k because people were afraid of used EV
| batteries.
|
| In comparison, used teslas seemed to hold their values better.
| But that was mostly because tesla understood and sort of propped
| up their used ev market. I think if tesla didn't buy back their
| cars, used EVs would have been less expensive all along.
| schmookeeg wrote:
| A Leaf was our first EV. I still maintain that if I had kids of
| driving-age, this would be my ideal first-car for them. Short
| leash, easy to drive around, room for friends, but not much
| scope to get into big trouble with.
|
| Holy cow they're cheap now. Note that they can be absurdly bad
| in cold/rainy weather -- which prompted the sale of ours in
| Portland. Our ostensibly "80mi" EV got about 22mi once before
| howling for a charge, and that spelled "Adios Sparky" for us :)
| MagicMoonlight wrote:
| Lmao where are you getting these figures? EVs basically don't
| need servicing. It's not 30% cheaper, more like 90% cheaper. My
| car's manual only has 5 components listed, and two of those are
| fluid changes.
|
| I bought a top spec 50k EV for 18k with 16000 miles. It averages
| 4 miles/KWh. Run the numbers on that and tell me I'm losing out.
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