[HN Gopher] 670nm red light exposure improved aged mitochondrial...
___________________________________________________________________
670nm red light exposure improved aged mitochondrial function,
colour vision
Author : walterbell
Score : 304 points
Date : 2025-02-16 08:33 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| ankitml wrote:
| There are more than 1000 similar papers on red and near infrared.
| All pointing to its impact on mitochondria. Near Infrared (NIR)
| penetrates few cm, leading to its mitochondrial impact in muscle
| cells too.
|
| https://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0,5&q=near+i...
| nwienert wrote:
| I've looked into red light at least a handful of nights, I
| never can come away with a conclusion. It seems like it helps,
| but it also seems super likely it doesn't do much. I've added
| the super high intensity arrays to my cart even, before reading
| into various studies and anecdotes and just not being
| convinced.
|
| What's the most convincing argument for it?
| theoreticalmal wrote:
| You seem like you're hoping someone will convince you to try
| it. Why don't you get a cheap one and give it a shot and see
| if you feel any different?
| nwienert wrote:
| I typically don't buy things unless I feel they have some
| utility, and it seems the cheap ones likely don't do enough
| to notice.
| its-summertime wrote:
| Light is light.
| ben_w wrote:
| Some wavelengths don't penetrate so deep, and not all
| bulbs are the same brightness.
|
| I've seen obvious lies on some product descriptions on
| internet listings, therefore I wouldn't trust a
| specification claim like "x nm" or "y lumen", and unless
| I had tools to measure them I would not rely on them
| meeting those specifications.
| PeterStuer wrote:
| Lumen does not measure much red light.
| ben_w wrote:
| Lumens being perceputual brightness means any package
| listing it for IR is definitely lying; but that only
| makes it a first-pass filter, "no false positives" does
| not mean "no false negatives".
|
| e.g. even when it's about visible light, well, do you
| trust this claim of 500,000 lumen?:
| https://www.amazon.de/Shadowhawk-Rechargeable-Extremely-
| Wate...
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > do you trust this claim of 500,000 lumen?
|
| Having watched Torque Test Channel test[0] these[1]
| kinds[2] of claims, no, no I do not.
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pp8dumORMA0
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBPQKeeYTfo
|
| [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceA5xL6ggEw
| its-summertime wrote:
| Yeah but like, don't buy from temu or something, buy from
| digikey etc and just wire it yourself, its cheap enough
| to be able to fail 20 times without costing more than a
| burger.
| bethekind wrote:
| Build your own. But direct from Alibaba or mouser or
| digikey.
|
| The main science behind it is to hit the absorption peaks
| of a mitochondrial enzyme. You can make em bright, but be
| limited on how long you can use it, or dim and be forced
| to use it constantly for the same effect.
|
| Pulse width modulation is very important in this for
| penetration. High intensity allows for deeper
| penetration, but heats up cells causing stress. The ideal
| scenario is a really strong light, run at a really low
| duty cycle, allowing for both intensity AND low average
| wattage, this lessening thermal issues
|
| There might be other mechanisms of actions, as there are
| so many papers that say "light good", but until they can
| give a mechanism of action, I'm sticking with what I know
| Fethbita wrote:
| I have been wanting one of these and on multiple occasions
| tried to find some good quality lights. I have not been
| able to find one that I feel is trustworthy. Do you have
| any EU based recommendations?
| kenjackson wrote:
| I've used it for a while now on my knees and ankles. Seems
| like it works. But honestly its hard for me to tell if
| anything works. I even question Tylenol. All of it seems like
| it may work some, but its not something I feel has a very
| acute impact at all.
|
| Without a controlled study, as an individual, how can I tell
| if my sprain got better in 6 days but would've taken 9 days
| otherwise???
| anon84873628 wrote:
| You might want to look into BPC-157
| andreareina wrote:
| BPC 157 has little to no reliable data to say it works.
|
| https://open.spotify.com/episode/6WLUUia6qZjVredWBuOlr6
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| A fair amount of anecdotal data though, it has helped me
| and others that I know. While the effect is pretty mild
| it is positive. Having a lifelong chronic condition I'm
| very sensitive to changes and have no discernible placebo
| effect. I've tried so many things that my prior belief
| when trying something new is that it wont work, so it's a
| nice unexpected surprise when it does.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| Ghosts have a fair amount of anecdotal data. Homeopathy
| has a fair amount of anecdotal data.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| I am aware of survivorship bias but for that to apply
| BPC157 would have to be killing people, this peptide is
| widely used so if it was killing people we would know due
| to investigations into their deaths.
|
| People usually hear about this stuff peer to peer and
| they report back to their peers if it helped or not, so
| there is a before and after, and for those people there
| isn't a selection criteria biased on success. If people
| don't report back then others become very interested in
| why.
| monero-xmr wrote:
| Sleep on a firm mattress. Stretch daily. Lift weights 3x a
| week, for 2x upper body focus and 1x leg day. Cardio 3x a
| week on days you don't lift. High protein and low fat every
| day. Low sugar and carbs.
|
| Pain comes as you age. It isn't unique to modern man, other
| than we typically live longer than ancient man.
|
| If you do this plan you can still cheat. Drink, party, eat
| whatever. You invest effort so you can enjoy life when the
| moment arises.
| raffraffraff wrote:
| Actually the "drink plenty" thing, if you're referring to
| alcohol, isn't something I can do. I quit (or cut down to
| insignificant levels) after observing is effect on me via
| my Garmin stats. Everything goes bad: HRV drops, resting
| heart rate goes up and sleep scores is _terrible_. One
| beer or one glass of white wine with a meal around 6pm is
| ok. But a night out with the guys makes me look like a
| very sick 80 year old. Heart rate barely drops below 80
| while I 'm asleep. Normally it's 48-54 BPM through the
| night. And if I go for a light run the day after having
| two or three beers, my heart rate is at least 20 BPM
| higher. So I made a rule: no exertion after alcohol, no
| alcohol when I'm already compromised (eg: unwell, when
| those stats are already bad)
| beagle3 wrote:
| Which Garmin model do you use? Do you know if the
| measurements provided by an Apple Watch are as
| informative?
|
| Trying to decide which one to get.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| The accuracy isn't as important as the trend. Don't
| expect hospital grade ecg results but either can
| certainly tell you if things are better or worse since
| you're wearing the same sensor.
|
| I've got the AW Ultra and I'm quite fond of it, ability
| to use it without carrying my phone (even audible
| audiobooks) is the killer for me.
| zanybear wrote:
| I get the same values and trend after a glass of wine or
| rye and ginger. I have an Apple Watch.
| wright-goes wrote:
| I switched from a Garmin Instinct (several years ago)
| after having used Garmin GPS devices and watches while in
| the military to an Apple Watch Ultra now. The quantified
| scientist channel on youtube had some views that helped
| me decide (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YVhmzxpw5Gg).
|
| Hardware-wise they're largely similar, with some
| additional edge use cases (depending on who you are ofc)
| for fitness and outdoors with Garmin.
|
| On the Garmin side for software, one thing I really
| appreciated on Garmin was the "body battery", or estimate
| of your energy, as well as health trends, etc. Apple has
| caught up with many of the features in the last year, and
| has a little ways to go. Apps like Athlytic do a good job
| filling the gap, but Apple really is making that gap
| quite small. Garmin locks your workout data down to its
| garden somewhat limiting your exports and has it more
| readily cloud accessible than I'd prefer; I felt the
| Apple privacy protections were better after reading the
| TOCs and looking at how the data is stored on each
| service.
|
| What ultimately made me decide to go with Apple Watch is
| the above data consideration, the smooth functionality
| and integration with my iPhone, and the rapid pace of
| development Apple has had. Also, the cellular, texting
| (not saying it's the preferred method), Apple pay, etc.
| are all great to have on the Apple Watch and I can go for
| a run with only that.
|
| After I paid more attention to my body metrics, I also
| changed my habits and started focusing on hydration more,
| when I drank alcohol and how much, and I was able to make
| good choices that help me feel much better to tackle the
| next day.
| eitally wrote:
| I have a Garmin Epix Pro. I highly recommend the
| Epix/Fenix line, and these measurements / metrics are far
| superior to what you get with an Apple Watch (my wife has
| an Ultra). The differences become even starker if you are
| an avid athlete and use your Garmin to track your
| workouts/performances.
| Etheryte wrote:
| Ah yes, nothing like giving unsolicited advice without
| even knowing what medical condition the other person has.
| You mean well, but it's a crude oversimplification to
| think every problem is just a matter of just work out the
| same way I do. For some reason, this phenomenon seems to
| be common in people who found sports a bit later in life,
| I'm guessing it's had a big positive impact and they want
| everyone to experience the same. Coaches and athletes
| tend to be much less quick to give shotgun advice, as
| they understand there's considerable depth to the
| problem.
| PcChip wrote:
| Suggesting that people work out a few times a week and
| eat well is not the bad thing you are making it out to be
| Etheryte wrote:
| Suggesting lifting weights three times a week when all
| you know is the person has a problem with their joints is
| not only unhelpful, it can be downright detrimental to
| their health. It's like recommending someone morbidly
| obese go for a run. It might be fine, but it might also
| destroy their joints for the rest of their life, and you
| can't know which it is without knowing more about their
| situation and condition.
| cthalupa wrote:
| A wide variety of joint issues are improved by performing
| a slow and steady progressive overload with lifting
| weights. Not all of them, of course, and yes there are
| some issues that preclude lifting, but this seems rather
| pedantic. There are a trillion things that most humans
| can do with no detrimental impact that a small subset
| can't. Trying to couch every suggestion based on edge
| cases is silly.
|
| The overwhelming majority of people would benefit from
| doing resistance training 3x a week, cardio 3x a week,
| and shifting their diet towards more protein and less
| carbs and fat. People who fall outside of the large
| majority due to specific medical conditions need to
| understand their medical conditions and how they impact
| their daily life, because expecting everyone else to
| always take into account these issues is unreasonable and
| unproductive.
| noah_buddy wrote:
| > It's like recommending someone morbidly obese go for a
| run
|
| To be frank, this is a dumb point. The morbidly obese
| person probably can't even run for 30 seconds. It won't
| destroy their joints for the rest of their life.
| Suggesting activity over inactivity is good advice for
| basically every human alive.
| Etheryte wrote:
| Hardly so. I worked as a coach when I was younger and the
| number of people who hurt themselves this way is
| considerable, likewise for many completely preventable
| injuries at the gym. Usually people only turn to
| professional help once some damage is already done. To
| exemplify my point, the average BMI in the US is roughly
| between overweight and obese. If someone in that weight
| range decides that the treadmill is the way to turn their
| life around, they will most likely come away with serious
| injuries if they keep it up.
|
| Suggesting activity is good, yes, but suggesting someone
| should start with lifting specifically when they have
| issues with their joints without any further context is
| moronic.
| maeil wrote:
| You're framing a very opinionated (and hotly contested)
| take "high protein, low fat, low carb" presented as
| universal truth as just "suggesting to eat well".
| throwway120385 wrote:
| Actually sleeping on a softer mattress leads to more
| restful sleep for me. I used to sleep on a firm but my
| partner tries to get the softest mattress she can and
| I've found that it works a lot better for me than my old
| firm mattress did. The moveable bases, when adjusted
| correctly, also allow me to completely relax when I'm
| asleep and I rest a lot better under those conditions. I
| notice the difference now whenever I'm traveling because
| the hotel beds are usually rock hard. Mattress
| salespeople actually do know what they're talking about
| some of the time.
| codethief wrote:
| I don't know. Humans have slept on the ground for
| hundreds of thousands of years and now soft mattresses
| are supposed to be better? Call me unconvinced.
|
| (FWIW, to counter your personal experience with some of
| my own anecdotal evidence, I always sleep much better on
| firm mattresses.)
| jjk166 wrote:
| Humans suffered colds without antibiotics for hundreds of
| thousands of years. Just because we can endure certain
| circumstances does not make them optimal. Our ancestors
| certainly didn't avoid softer sleeping spots because of
| some benefit the firmness of the ground provided.
| 14 wrote:
| Tylenol is a pain reliever so may help with pain. Something
| like ibuprofen may be a better option, speak to your
| doctor, as it not only helps with pain but acts as an anti-
| inflammatory. The important thing to note is that it's
| effects do not happen instantly but something like several
| days later so if you have a knee issue, taking it regularly
| as directed by doctor or manufacturers instructions and not
| just when your knee hurts can really speed up recovery.
|
| As for your question well you basically just have to trust
| the science. At some point a rat in a lab probably was
| intentionally injured next to another rat in the same
| position and one would get the treatment and the other not.
| They would then see who healed faster. Things like
| Acetaminophen and Ibuprofen have been around a long time
| and studied extensively so they have a good understanding
| of it's efficacy.
|
| Lastly placebo effect seems to be a real effect so if you
| do something and you think it might help it might help.
| lazide wrote:
| Ibuprofen has some well known (and negative) side
| effects, including ulcers, increased risk of stroke and
| heart attack, and even significantly increased malformed
| sperm production [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a
| rticle/abs/pii/S00456...]
|
| Vitamin I is not, well, _actually_ a vitamin.
| LoganDark wrote:
| poor rat :(
| tristramb wrote:
| You need to sprain both knees or ankles at the same time
| and then use one as the control.
| differentView wrote:
| Both most people favor one side of their body, so the
| wear and tear would already be uneven.
| jjk166 wrote:
| Sprain both knees _and_ ankles and red light treat
| opposite ones (ie randomly select right ankle + left knee
| or the opposite pair).
| Ruthalas wrote:
| You may also have trouble applying the Aspirin to only
| one location.
| aghilmort wrote:
| most useful comment in thread like that H.pylori ulcer
| discovery
| unclad5968 wrote:
| Just go outside, there is lots of IR out there. If it feels
| good then get whatever gadget you want to emulate it inside.
| bethekind wrote:
| Most of the stuff online is overpriced and beyond the
| mitochondrial enzyme absorption spectrum, I can't find any
| reasonable mechanism for action.
|
| I think your hesitance is valid
| cowsaymoo wrote:
| A family member of mine is involved in research into using
| red/NIR light to improve brain injuries outcomes. Apparently it
| can also irradiate passing blood which then circulates with the
| same mitochondrial clean up signals, so it has some secondary
| effects on non-penetrated areas.
|
| I got to try a prototype LED helmet that blasts 90 watts of
| lensed, circumspaced NIR beams through the skull for 4 minutes.
| I can say that an hour later it leaves me feeling mildly
| buzzed. The main effect I can identify is a mild and general
| sense of stamina/energy. I used it before/after an all-nighter
| and didn't feel as impacted as I should have; analogous to how
| you feel the next morning after drinking at age 20 vs. age 30.
| All anecdotal of course.
|
| They took the helmet away to give to a kid with an recent brain
| injury, but swapped it with a hefty 2-foot, 1800W panel. It
| comes with tanning goggles and instructions saying to be nude
| and 12 inches away from it for 20 minutes per day--so a bit
| quacky. But it's apparently big in professional sports clinics
| for speeding tissue and joint healing.
| prododev wrote:
| I mean, it is kinda quacky to treat someone with that until
| it's demonstrated by science. I'm open to the idea that light
| is an important regulator, but that effect should be easily
| observable if it's truly effective.
| Etheryte wrote:
| The topmost comment in this comment thread starts with the
| fact that there are over a thousand studies on this
| already, no? Even if the whole effect isn't well
| understood, it seems like there is some science behind
| this.
| 0xEF wrote:
| One could argue that the research goes all the way back
| to Dr Frederick Cook aboard the Belgica during an
| Antarctic expedition I which they became trapped by the
| sea ice. The men suffered from multiple maladies, scurvy
| included, with one of the prescribed treatments being to
| stand nude near a blazing fire for an hour. If his notes
| are to be believed, the men saw some immediate changed in
| their overall health beyond simply getting warm. By some
| accounts, he became a bit of a fanatic about how much we
| humans need the sun, after that.
| Angostura wrote:
| Or it could be vitamin D, or sunlight killing ticks, or
| fungal pathogens, or it could be the release of
| endorphins due to mild sun burn, or any number of other
| things.
| 0xEF wrote:
| I'd say it's all those things, likely in different
| combinations based on the circumstances. Cook's notes
| indicate that he may have considered it a panacea of
| sorts, triggering a bunch of different stuff that helped
| overall health, but keep in mind this was something to
| tune of 150 years ago, so the information he was working
| with may have limited the scope of his understanding. For
| all his otherwise infamous reputation, his work aboard
| the Belgica was nothing short of pioneering for the time.
| His life after that expedition over-shadows any positive
| contributions to science he made, unfortunately.
| relaxing wrote:
| As placebos go, feeling toasty warm has to be way up
| there.
| Angostura wrote:
| There maybe a thousand studies.
|
| How many well-designed double-blind studies in humans?
| That's the question
| cowsaymoo wrote:
| I'm no expert but my gist is that light interacts with an
| enzyme in the electron transport chain (cytochrome c
| oxidase). CCO is embedded in the inner membrane of
| mitochondria, and nitric oxide binds to CCO which
| temporarily inhibits cellular respiration as a natural
| metabolic regulation to control oxidative stress. Red and
| NIR light can photodissociate NO from CCO with the right
| intensity and wavelength, which restarts cellular
| respiration and ATP production. The release of NO into the
| bloodstream can secondarily trigger other chemical pathways
| involved in vasodilation and reactive oxygen species
| management.
|
| Edit: found a wiki with more details:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-
| emitting_diode_therapy#P...
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| In general, with a very few exceptions, if the body has a
| regulatory mechanism there's at least some reason for it,
| and tinkering with it without understanding it can have
| unpredictable downsides.
|
| >as a natural metabolic regulation to control oxidative
| stress
|
| That sounds like something I'd be very wary of
| manipulating without a good deal of clinical trials.
| Isn't oxidative stress one of like three primary
| hypothesized mechanisms of aging?
| nine_k wrote:
| The body has regulatory mechanisms formed 100k to 1000k
| years ago, and some even older. The life was a bit
| different then, as was humans' mental capacity and
| knowledge.
|
| This is why humans have to actively overcome and
| sometimes subvert various mechanisms that presume the
| need to conserve the energy: they hit a gym which the
| body doesn't like, they limit sugars and fats which the
| body craves, they consume caffeine, nicotine, or even
| cocaine to trick the body into working harder and
| complaining less.
|
| Compared to that, hitting the body with some NIR
| radiation seems very benign. You can get a lot of that
| just by walking in the sun, and there are no known
| adverse effects of that, unlike, say the use of the
| chemical substances. If anything, it's a promising field
| of research.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| >You can get a lot of that just by walking in the sun,
| and there are no known adverse effects of that
|
| Other than sunburn and skin cancer?
| nine_k wrote:
| Sunburns and skin cancer are induced by UV, not NIR
| light. Put on the protective cream.
| bethekind wrote:
| I have so many questions about both apparatuses. 90W input or
| irradiated? Pulse width modulated/dimmed? Lasers? LEDs?
| 850nm? 830nm? 810nm?
|
| For the panel, 1800W is a LOT of power to put through 2 feet.
| Is it actually 1800W? What wavelengths? PWM?
|
| I've been using a NIR belt flipped inside out on my pillow
| the last few weeks. It's only 6W of 850nm, but I've been
| feeling less dumb recently. Not sure if it's correlated, but
| until I settle it for sure, I'm going to keep on using it.
| cowsaymoo wrote:
| The prototype came with a power supply that is set at 24V,
| 5A and consumes 90W when running. Not sure how the control
| circuits work but its pretty simply operated with a 3P2T
| switch for 650nm/Off/850nm. Each module contains a fan
| cooled array of LEDs behind a plastic lens. I think it has
| some thermal shut off protection circuit as well.
|
| I just dug out the spec sheet for the other device and
| you're right. It says "LED Power Class 1800W", but lists
| power consumption as 350W.
|
| I really like it's potential to improve the right kind of
| symptoms when applied correctly and I'm also wary of people
| with bottom line incentives filling in any scientific
| uncertainty with miracle cures. But I agree, it's
| definitely worth using. It's a one time purchase with no
| side effects, so the worst case risk is just
| disappointment.
| bbarnett wrote:
| Can light penetrate the skull bones though?
| energy123 wrote:
| Yes
| CyberDildonics wrote:
| Light is anything in the spectrum visible to people, with
| the exception of infrared being called light. What
| evidence do you have that this is true?
| Filligree wrote:
| Radio waves do with no trouble. Blue does not at all.
| Everything between is on a sliding scale; there are no
| qualitative changes until you get to ionising radiation.
|
| Though there's a bit in the middle where it matches the
| resonant frequency of water molecules, yes.
| lukeinator42 wrote:
| yes, and you can even use infrared spectroscopy to infer
| brain activity via the bold signal:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functional_near-
| infrared_spect...
| throwway120385 wrote:
| It would probably be 1800W continuously but is pulsed and
| the duty cycle probably limits the power to 350W.
| energy123 wrote:
| What is the distance of the LED from the scalp? I want to
| approximate the amount of irradiance (mW/squared area).
| cowsaymoo wrote:
| It sits right on the head with a ~1 inch foam spacer. The
| lens might change the fluence, which I think was a key part
| of the pending patent. Also 90W is the power draw for all
| the modules in the helmet. I can ask though what the
| targeted mW/area is and reply if I can get an answer.
| mlhpdx wrote:
| I have to wonder if sitting by a fire at night is analogous.
| inciampati wrote:
| Weirdly they didn't test nighttime exposure as an intervention.
| OK, "weird" means probably it was costly/hard to get people
| into a lab setting at 9pm... But it does make you wonder!
| hollerith wrote:
| A different study found that red light helps only if it
| precedes exposure to blue light, blue light and UV light
| being the main sources of (oxidative) stress on the retina.
| Knowing that is probably why they didn't bother testing
| night-time exposure.
|
| Some believe that the reason red light helps is that
| cytochrome C oxidase can use the red light to convert
| serotonin to melatonin and that melatonin is the most
| important anti-oxidant in the human body. (Under this model,
| melatonin cannot get into the mitochondria, but serotonin
| can.)
| 6510 wrote:
| A few decades ago I had this mysterious sunny morning with
| colors 10 times brighter than usual. I never managed to
| figure it out, now the only things I remember are that the
| curtains were open, the sun came in, I had a dark red box
| next to my bed that I must have looked at for 20-30 seconds
| because the color was so absurdly vivid, then I looked at a
| gold lamp on top and thought woah! The effect persisted for
| a while, everything in my house looked different. I've also
| noticed changes in my vision when sleeping in different
| places.
|
| What little I remember it sure fits your description. I
| might try hooking up a red heat lamp to a timer as an alarm
| clock to see what happens.
| zarzavat wrote:
| Sounds like Chimerical colors https://en.wikipedia.org/wi
| ki/Impossible_color#Chimerical_co...
| yazaddaruvala wrote:
| Not exactly a scientific experiment, but based on this video it
| seems like fire would have significantly less visible intensity
| for it to make a meaningful difference.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBL3NdIK4DI
| selcuka wrote:
| I remember reading somewhere that it is analogous to closing
| your eyes under the sun, as your eyelids only allow some
| wavelengths of sunlight. Not sure if that's accurate.
| mk_stjames wrote:
| The transmittance of light through the human eyelid is about
| two orders of magnitude greater at the start of the near-IR
| (~700) nm than it is at 450nm. [1]
|
| [1] "Measuring and predicting eyelid spectral transmittance"
| Journal of Biomedical Optics, Vol. 16, Issue 6, 067011 (June
| 2011) https://doi.org/10.1117/1.3593151
| bethekind wrote:
| It's quite analogous, especially for ideal intensity
|
| Bright enough to warm the body, but not thermally stress the
| cells.
|
| And yeah, closing your eyelids would block UV light from
| getting in and cross linking proteins and causing cataracts,
| while still allowing for NIR light to get in and speed up the
| mitochondria.
|
| Analogous for sure
| HumblyTossed wrote:
| So, to replicate the results of this study how long would a
| person have to do this each (morning?)?
| pier25 wrote:
| what about the sun?
| dexwiz wrote:
| I don't think people realize how much brighter the sun is
| than almost all other light sources in their life.
| fecal_henge wrote:
| What is sun?
| throitallaway wrote:
| LED headlights in some vehicles are a close second.
| bethekind wrote:
| Sun is good, but has limitations
|
| It has UV, which stresses out the cells You can't PWM the
| sun, it's hard to get full naked coverage in front of it.
| Doesn't perfectly target NIR or NIR-II biological windows.
|
| But for a base/starter, it can't be beat.
|
| Simply put, light is better than no light.
| bethekind wrote:
| I bought an infrared parabolic heater to test this out once, as
| a friend made a comment insinuating that more time in front of
| fire meant a better sleep. I ran it for a few days, but the
| results were mixed and inconclusive.
|
| I suspect because the longer IR wavelengths just heat the body
| up, it's hard to get enough of the more "useful" wavelengths
| without overheating
| tt7792 wrote:
| From my experience, fire infrared light can be stronger than
| the sun. I used to
|
| have occasional pain in my left knee, but resolved it by one or
| two really hot
|
| sessions at the chimney(I nearly burned myself lol so it has to
| be really hot in
|
| order to get rid of chronical pain). Knee pain is gone now. I
| have read a theory
|
| of the vagus nerve sending harmful substances produced by the
| microbiome in the
|
| bowels to the knee to prevent it going to the brain. The useful
| compounds get
|
| teleported to the brain(we got no clue how the vagus nerve does
| it, but if you
|
| lack a functioning vagus nerve the transportation ceases).
| bluechair wrote:
| Anecdotal, so take this with a grain of salt: I've used a pair of
| red light glasses from a Dr in the UK and saw noticeably improved
| vision.
| cenamus wrote:
| With those the same amount of red light would have hit your
| retinas anyways, no?
| AnthonBerg wrote:
| Yes, pretty much I'd think--but less of the other
| wavelengths.
|
| I imagine that this could serve as different enough input to
| matter. With the eyes being a very expensive and highly-
| strung instrument and all?
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| Probably the pupils dilate due to overall decrease in light
| intensity
| m463 wrote:
| I remember reading about this wrt red light improving healing of
| burn victims.
| jensenbox wrote:
| Can I do this with an LED strip and maybe home assistant in my
| office?
| trhway wrote:
| >A single 3 min 670 nm morning exposure to the eye at energy
| levels approximately a log unit greater than found in
| environmental light
|
| it sounds like getting up early and getting out like for a run
| can be beneficial in one more way.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Early-morning-6-am-relat... :
|
| "Early morning (6 am) relative irradiance of the sun is higher in
| the visible and NIR spectrum compared to midday exposure (noon)"
| mitjam wrote:
| Yes and before reading HN on a screen which is my habit,
| unfortunately.
| imp0cat wrote:
| Just need to redshift the screen. But the intensity will not
| be enough, unfortunately.
| khafra wrote:
| A single 3min 670nm morning exposure may be more valuable in
| latitudes where the sun does not rise until after 8AM.
| RomanPushkin wrote:
| I don't know wether it's true or not, but I liked the red light,
| and my spouse too. It helps - improves mood, heals minor pain,
| calms you down, and warms you up. It also helps with falling
| taking naps if needed, I fell asleep faster. Lots of joy for $70.
| I found vintage Kenmore red lamp with red bulb on eBay. I find it
| better than LEDs, since it emits heat as well.
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| I use a 10,000 LUX light therapy lamp in the morning and it
| does wonders for my mood. When I started, colleagues commented
| on my better mood without knowing about the lamp (obviously).
| It is amazing how large of an effect light has on us.
| imp0cat wrote:
| Is that a red one? Or one of those "simulate the sun" full-
| spectrum ones?
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| It is the full-spectrum one, not red. I should have been
| clearer in my comment.
| bethekind wrote:
| This is basically a mini grow light right?
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| Yes, I think so.
| taraparo wrote:
| I have one of those https://www.eye-power.co.uk/
|
| While I like the sensation using it I don't feel any noticeable
| effect.
| zanybear wrote:
| How old are you? What drove you to buy these?
| voisin wrote:
| Looks really interesting. Wondering if I would need special
| equipment like they describe in order to hit the intensity they
| describe specifically on the cornea or if it would be effective
| enough to buy a 670nm red light bulb and sit near it in an
| otherwise dark room in the morning?
| zellyn wrote:
| My head canon is that sitting around drinking tea and watching
| the sunset is what humans need most...
| riversflow wrote:
| for whatever it's worth, I have found a lot of meaning in
| sunset runs.
| ziofill wrote:
| Is this true only for vision? Mitochondria are in other places
| too
| crystaln wrote:
| There is a large amount of evidence for red light therapy for
| all parts of the body.
| pbmonster wrote:
| A large amount of mostly inconclusive evidence!
|
| I don't know why the people running red light studies hate
| control groups so much. If you do that many studies, varying
| wave length and intensity for some of them should be trivial.
| Yet somehow they almost never do that.
|
| So: 90W mask or 1500W panel? Infrared, red light, or does
| yellow work just as well, maybe?
|
| The people doing near-UV therapy for skin conditions managed
| to do all that. There's a know effective wave length (it's
| always 311nm), there's dosage plans. There's licenced medical
| devices doing the irradiation. IR people seem less interested
| in all that.
| pjs_ wrote:
| I like to read book in the dark with the red LED on my headtorch
| (so as not to bother gf) before I go to sleep. It's prob 630nm
| not 670 but I get about two pages in and fall instantly asleep.
| Can recommend
| profsummergig wrote:
| Could you please link to the product. I have trouble sleeping.
| Am interested in trying this technique. Thanks in advance.
| pjs_ wrote:
| Here is the recipe. Don't skip any steps
|
| - Your room must be cold. If you stand around in the room you
| should feel kind of chilly
|
| - Your room should be quiet. If you have loud A/C which turns
| on and off that's a problem c.f. step 1 -- think hard about
| how to meet both requirements given your personal
| situation/constraints
|
| - Your room must be dark. Not necessarily pitch black but
| dark. No blinking LEDs.
|
| - A couple hours before bed, remind your brain that it is
| soon time to sleep
|
| - Your phone must not be in the room with you. Your phone
| sleeps in the kitchen. I cannot emphasize this enough. It's
| OK you are going to have a nice book to read instead
|
| - You need a real physical book. Books are cheap and make you
| more sexy and smarter. No Kindle
|
| - Here's the book I'm reading: https://www.abebooks.com/book-
| search/title/gormenghast/
|
| - This is the headlamp I use: https://www.pelican.com/us/en/p
| roduct/flashlights/headlamp/2...
|
| - There's nothing special about that headtorch -- there are
| hundreds of head torches you can buy with a red ~630nm LED.
| it's the standard red color LED. It would be interesting to
| swap it out for the 670nm wavelength described in the article
| though!
|
| - Actually that model is pretty heavy and just happens to be
| the one I bought for camping -- you could do a lot
| better/smaller/lighter e.g. Nitecore NU25, Black Diamond Spot
| 350
|
| - You will feel like a clown when you put the headtorch on.
| That's okay -- you read books and sleep well, making you very
| attractive in the daytime. It's OK to look like a clown at
| nighttime
|
| - You are going to sleep on your back. You can do this, I
| believe in you. You are going to sleep positioned like
| Tutankhamun and for nearly as long
|
| - You need a reasonably firm pillow and you need to set it up
| right. It needs to support your neck and stop you rolling on
| your side. None of this foam bullshit it needs to have
| feathers in it. You are a human being not a cellphone. You
| don't sleep on plastic
|
| - OK let's get this bread. You lie down you turn off all the
| lights and you turn on your cool little headtorch. You get
| your head very well positioned on the pillow. You are about
| to sleep like a boss, you're going to sleep like Genghis
| Khan. You better get those covers tight because it's fucking
| cold in your room. Then you start reading. Hell yeah this
| book is so good. It feels so natural and rewarding and you
| remember that people used to write in ways that are outside
| our grasp today, no LLM or modern author can touch it. Within
| a couple of pages your eyes are shut. You find yourself
| holding the book with your eyes closed, barely awake. At that
| moment boom you put down the book, ideally switch off the
| headtorch, and disappear
| profsummergig wrote:
| Thanks.
|
| I found this: https://www.amazon.com/Deep-Red-670nm-
| Wavelength-Flashlight/...
| pjs_ wrote:
| Cool
| profsummergig wrote:
| I can't seem to find any 670nm headlamps.
|
| Question: do you know how you know that the headlamp you
| own is 630nm? Thanks.
| energy123 wrote:
| Relevant comment about 850nm light:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21042852
| walterbell wrote:
| Thanks for the pointer!
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| Someone there links to this, surprisingly affordable, product:
| https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075F7NV56
| energy123 wrote:
| Are there any valid safety concerns with this? Or is it just
| the simple check: "as long as the wattage is low enough, it's
| fine."
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| My experience with evaluating consumer medical devices
| ("lifestyle" and "fitness") is that what is on the box is
| often not what the device actually does. Besides wavelength
| and wattage, you would probably need to check for
| consistency, whether there aren't any spikes, etc. I don't
| know how much IR light is dangerous for the brain / what
| tolerances are acceptable.
| cowsaymoo wrote:
| More is not better. Research suggests optimal mJ/c^2/s
| dosages for each wavelength. Stuff on amazon is not going
| to be calibrated at all to dosage or even wavelength. Aside
| from being ineffective, there aren't dangerous side effects
| except prolonged exposure if staring into high intensity
| NIR.
| energy123 wrote:
| Can you explain more about optimal dosages and which
| products deliver those dosages? We get about 0.05 J/cm2/s
| of infrared irradiance from natural sunlight, so we'd
| probably want to be at that level, or above but less than
| an order of magnitude above it?
|
| One challenge is the irradiance drops off as a square a
| distance. So like 5 inch away vs 1 inch away is a
| difference of 25x irradiance.
| ulnarkressty wrote:
| I would not use it without proper eye protection for that
| particular wavelength. Staring into an infrared light will
| probably negatively affect your eyesight. As the eyes
| cannot see it, your pupil will not react and you also can't
| judge how bright it is.
| energy123 wrote:
| What about putting it to the side at a 60 degree angle?
| itishappy wrote:
| The FOV of your eyes is insane, you have usable retina
| more than 90 degrees off center. If you want to avoid
| illuminating your eyes, you need to avoid illuminating
| your face.
| moe091 wrote:
| My wife has a "Dr Dennis Gross Red Light Mask" that has a
| setting for 650nm + 850nm red light. Supposed to help with
| aging or something but the specs match up perfectly.
|
| Probably way too expensive for people to buy for this
| purpose(probably too expensive for skin care too, it's just a
| mask with red LED's, if I knew that's what she was buying I
| probably would've just made one. That's probably why she didn't
| tell me). Anyway, for anyone out there looking to buy a
| product, it's worth checking if your wife/gf already has
| something. Lots of products like this for anti aging as well as
| for hair growth
| differentView wrote:
| Do you think it works? You can be honest here.
| adolph wrote:
| Husband alarm activated: Danger Danger,
| make positive statement and redirect to how they feel about
| it!
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| $20 of LEDS stuck on a flex PCB molded to a $10 plastic mask,
| with a $3 power supply sold for $450.
|
| I have been telling myself for years I need to start building
| an selling these things.
| jsisto wrote:
| Does this mean I shouldn't wear the protective glasses when doing
| red light therapy?
| bethekind wrote:
| I think a good rule of thumb is to stop if it hurts. I presume
| you're not using a laser. Your eyes are pretty good at telling
| you when something is too much
| melbourne_mat wrote:
| Right now I'm wishing I had a transparent skull
| etiam wrote:
| Try a stronger dye?
|
| https://www.nature.com/articles/s41377-024-01675-z
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| They didn't have any controls with a different wavelength of
| light. They might as well be measuring a diurnal pattern.
| 6510 wrote:
| There seem to be very similar studies with the same conclusion.
|
| https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/3-minutes-of-deep-...
| bethekind wrote:
| I think the point of wanting a control is still valid.
| Science always benefits from having a control
| westurner wrote:
| Another:
|
| "Red (660 nm) or near-infrared (810 nm) photobiomodulation
| stimulates, while blue (415 nm), green (540 nm) light
| inhibits proliferation in human adipose-derived stem cells"
| (2017) https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-07525-w
|
| TIL it's called "red light optogenetics" even when the cells
| aren't modified for opto-activation.
|
| And,
|
| "Green light induces antinociception via visual-somatosensory
| circuits" (2023) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/articl
| e/pii/S221112472...
|
| "Infrared neural stimulation in human cerebral cortex" (2023)
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1935861X2.
| .. :
|
| > _In a comparison of electrical, optogenetic, and infrared
| neural stimulation, Roe et al. [14] found that all three
| approaches could in principal achieve such specificity.
| However, because brain tissue is conductive, it can be
| challenging to confine neuronal activation by traditional
| electrical stimulation to a single cortical column. In
| contrast, optogenetic stimulation can be applied with high
| spatial specificity (e.g. by delivering light via a 200um
| fiber optic apposed to the cortex) and with cell-type
| specificity (e.g. excitatory or inhibitory cells); however,
| optogenetics requires viral vectors and gene transduction
| procedures, making it less easy for human applications [15].
| Over the last decade, infrared neural stimulation (INS),
| which is a pulsed heat-mediated approach, has provided an
| alternative method of neural activation. Because brain tissue
| is 75% water, infrared light delivered near peak absorption
| wavelengths (e.g. 1875 nm [16]) permits effective delivery of
| heat to the brain tissue. In particular, experimental and
| modelling studies [[17], [18], [19]] have shown that 1875 nm
| light (brief 0.5sec trains of 0.25msec pulses forming a bolus
| of heat) effectively achieves focal (submillimeter to
| millimeter sized) activation of neural tissue_
|
| Does NIRS -based (neuro-) imaging induce neuronal growth?
|
| Are there better photonic beam-forming apparatuses than TI
| DLP projectors with millions of tiny actuated mirrors; isn't
| that what a TV does?
|
| _Cold plasma_ also affects neuronal regrowth and could or
| should be used for wound closure. Are they cold plasma-ing
| Sam (Hedlund) in "Tron: Legacy" (2010) before the disc golf
| discus thing?
|
| Does cold plasma reduce epithelial scarring?
|
| A certain duration of cold plasma also appears to increase
| seed germination rate FWIW.
|
| To find these studies, I used a search engine and search
| terms and then picked studies which seem to confirm our bias.
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| The source for your link is the same article being discussed
| here.
|
| But given how simple their light setup is, they could easily
| have added a control group.
| crystaln wrote:
| Red light therapy is vasty undervalued among the techie longevity
| crowd I know when compared to supplements, perhaps because of the
| large initial cost and lower portability of systems.
|
| The evidence seems stronger than for most supplements people
| take, for everything from hair loss to collagen production to
| soften tissue repair to brain function.
| 3abiton wrote:
| Any evidence on this? It sounds too good to be true.
| ipsum2 wrote:
| Red light has a negligible effect on hair loss compared to
| Rogaine (minoxidil), after reading many papers about this. Not
| sure about the other claims, but they also seem unlikely.
| bethekind wrote:
| I think one of the issues is how over priced most of the panels
| are. You're paying an arm and a leg for lots of little red
| lights. Nothing more.
| jbd0 wrote:
| I thought they were overpriced until I looked into building
| one myself. The heat sinks were going to be really expensive.
| The LEDs and lenses weren't cheap either.
| 6510 wrote:
| Dumb question, if you fill the monitor/display with rgb(232, 0,
| 0) would it emit 670nm light or is it not strong enough? Could
| one benefit from red curtains or wall paper?
| anentropic wrote:
| Where can we get such light? Is it basically what you'd get from
| warming yourself in the sun?
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| Facing the sun with closed eyelids would get you a lot of red
| light in the generally correct spectrum
|
| https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/journals/journal-of-biome...
|
| Probably wouldn't do it for more than 10 mins
| mupuff1234 wrote:
| (2021)
| Two_hands wrote:
| Alot of these devices are quite expensive. Would it be possible
| to purchase the LEDs and create a sort of guerrilla red light
| therapy device?
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| 670nm is 670nm, no matter the marketing and/or medical
| certifications & approvals
| itishappy wrote:
| In theory. In practice without testing there's no guarantee
| you're getting only 670nm light. I can make a brilliant 670nm
| source that also douses you with 385nm light.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| Not really. In practice, the vast majority of LED producers
| provide the Spectral Power Distribution in the datasheet.
| itishappy wrote:
| Agreed, but I'd also argue that's what medical certs and
| approvals are doing in this setting.
| moffkalast wrote:
| Guerrilla? Like you mean to jump out of tree cover and shine
| red light at people randomly?
| bilsbie wrote:
| Has anyone had success for sports injuries like tennis elbow or
| is a heating pad just as good?
| bilsbie wrote:
| Would you presumable get the same effects from sun bathing since
| the sunlight probably contains that frequency?
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| The most important part of that paper is the first two sentences:
|
| "Metabolic rate and ageing are both regulated by mitochondria.
| Mitochondrial membrane potential, however, declines with age
| resulting in reduced adenosine triphosphate (ATP) production,
| which is a major source of cellular energy. Cellular decline is
| further accelerated with ageing by increased production of pro-
| inflammatory reactive oxygen species (ROS)1."
|
| Forget everything else. Why does "Exposure to long wavelength
| light (650-900 nm) in animals improves mitochondrial function,
| increasing ATP production and reducing ROS"? That is what needs
| to be figured out, because red light will not always increase ATP
| production and reducing ROS because we are all different.
| Genetics, nutrition, it all plays a role.
|
| It might be as well that red light helps in the short term but
| hurts in the long term.
|
| On ATP, do you know what the real name for ATP is Mg-ATP, That is
| magnesium ATP. Not enough magnesium, not enough ATP. (I am in no
| way claiming that magnesium is a cure all, just making a point.)
| What reduces ROS? Selenium, magnesium, Catalase, etc...
| profsummergig wrote:
| I use a Windows app called SunsetScreen [1] to make my screen
| warm.
|
| Anyone have any idea if it contributes a lot of infra-red red
| light that way?
|
| [1] https://sunsetscreen.en.softonic.com/
| Filligree wrote:
| It does not. The red pixels don't get any redder, it's just
| turning down the other ones. These being LEDs, it has a sharp
| spike in the visual spectrum instead of a black-body curve that
| would cross into infrared.
| elif wrote:
| No the wattage used in clinical phototherapy is much higher and
| concentrated in specific bands.
|
| My much less powerful home phototherapy light weighs about 20
| lbs and I have to cover my eyes with multiple layers to use it.
| indoordin0saur wrote:
| 670nm is still visible red light. Infra-red starts at wave
| lengths above 750
| zupa-hu wrote:
| I'm wondering what wavelengths our monitors / phones have. I
| always thought of flux (the app) that it is reducing blue light.
| But keeping the red part may be just as important.
|
| For anyone interested, here is a short vid on how to color your
| iphone screen red: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omuGVs7eP-A
| walterbell wrote:
| In addition to the DIY options in this thread, there's a UK
| vendor selling an LED light in eyeglass frame, for weekly 3-min
| use. Has anyone tried it? 670nm Deep Red LED
| cluster 8mW / cm2 3 minute session timer with
| automatic switch off Rechargeable battery with 2 weeks
| between charges
|
| _> eyepower was set up initially as as a division of Planet
| Lighting in early 2020 with the aim of designing and developing a
| mass-market product that would allow individuals to take
| advantage of recent research in to the beneficial effects of deep
| red light on long term eye health. With the help and guidance of
| key academics at the forefront of red light therapy and industry
| professionals, eyepower succeeded in bringing a product to market
| in June 2022. Within 6 months of launch, the company had sold
| over 2,500 units to customers around the globe._
|
| https://www.eye-power.co.uk/ (via
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43086073)
| fumblebee wrote:
| I've seen plenty of red light exposure masks / therapies / tools
| being sold for absurdly high prices. I'm pretty suspicious of
| them, not least because I don't know much of anything about this
| area.
|
| Has anyone gone down the rabbit hole here and have genuine
| product recommendations that roughly satisfy the conditions laid
| out in the paper? * Wavelength: 650-900 nm red light * Power
| output: 8 mW/cm2 * Misc design choices: e.g. light diffusers *
| what other considerations???
| dvngnt_ wrote:
| i bought https://platinumtherapylights.com/products/bio-
| rlt?variant=1... during the pandemic, it has held up.
| goda90 wrote:
| I recently bought a panel on AliExpress for much cheaper than
| most of the branded one. There's not really reason for them to
| lie about the wavelength of the LEDs, so build quality is
| really the only risk factor.
| pseudosaid wrote:
| just lie about the led itself as that is the costly
| component. Who is gonna measure wavelengths and hold them
| accountable? its a no brainer move to scam the most expensive
| component that also is hard to verify
| goda90 wrote:
| Are LED's particularly costly though? Does one wavelength
| of red LED differ significantly in price from another
| wavelength of red LED? And does that even matter that much?
| It seems like higher wavelength has deeper penetration, but
| how deep you want depends on use case.
| pseudosaid wrote:
| Mitsubishi makes the best leds. get ones made by them. the rest
| can be driven by whatever
| heyoni wrote:
| Maybe, maybe not. At power levels high enough to be
| therapeutic you're gonna want to think about cooling.
| hart_russell wrote:
| I actually found the cheapest and best solution: getting 30
| minutes of direct sunlight every day
| asdff wrote:
| Perineum?
| heyoni wrote:
| You won't get an answer. They've been arrested for indecent
| exposure
| hart_russell wrote:
| I think shorts and minimal top would suffice lol
| mrexroad wrote:
| Challenge there is limiting exposure to damaging UV rays
| while maximizing near IR
| asdff wrote:
| I know some old eastern europeans who just swear by the red
| heat lamp. Like a big hot bulb akin to something for rotisserie
| chicken. I imagine its like a targeted hot tub in terms of
| muscle relief.
| grahamj wrote:
| I would not recommend applying a heat lamp to your eyes.
| elric wrote:
| There are some infrared masks which gently warm the eyelids to
| "melt" the meibomian oil in the eyes, which improves
| lubrication and can really help with dry eyes and associated
| fatigue. No clue about their wavelengths, but those are
| generally pretty cheap.
| InDubioProRubio wrote:
| So the idea is to create "original ideal environments" for these
| little critters, to reduce their need to migrate to the skin and
| back?
| anthk wrote:
| Would it work with a red translucid film taped to a regular white
| lamp/LED?
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| So many grifters in this space.
|
| Someone I know desperately bought a $8000 red light therapy gun
| pitched to her by a chiropractor to help her father who had
| catastrophic brain damage from a stroke. :/
|
| The gun has a dial on the side that lets you cycle through
| "Cancer", "Chronic pain", "Acute pain", and other ailments.
|
| https://neuro-solution.com/
|
| Whatever legitimacy red light therapy has, it's set back by the
| legion of people trying to make money selling confusing products,
| and it's hard to tell what's legitimate or not.
|
| Between some red-colored LEDs glued inside an eye mask and those
| fan-cooled NIR array panels on aliexpress, what is legitimate and
| how do you tell? I think it's that confusion that seeds the field
| for people to say "none of it unless you're spending good money
| [on my product]."
| kubb wrote:
| I hate it, and I'd consider this a crime akin to theft. It's
| literally taking advantage of people who don't have the faculty
| to defend themselves, and capitalising on their human weakness.
| goda90 wrote:
| From what I've read, it actually seems like a bad idea for
| cancer. Red light is not going to induce cancer like UV, but if
| cancer is already there, it'd get the same mitochondria
| boosting effect, essentially helping it grow more.
| ck2 wrote:
| While this site is particularly for me-cfs and long-covid
| illness, they do great analysis of many studies on a variety of
| subjects and recently red-light-therapy
|
| * https://www.healthrising.org/blog/2024/12/10/red-light-thera...
|
| Many independent studies, videos and panel buying comparisons on
| that page
|
| Personally I'm still not completely convinced but cannot afford
| it anyway.
|
| adding link to Red Light Therapy Shopping Tool:
|
| * https://products.lighttherapyinsiders.com/
| wslh wrote:
| We have some of these devices (not affiliated with the company)
| [1] for general consumption, and also for dentists and physician
| in the family. Also a very complete book [2]. I am talking as a
| layman since I am not in that field.
|
| [1] https://weberlasersystems.com/
|
| [2] https://weberlasersystems.com/products/book
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| so.. resurrect the dark(red) room for paper-photo-development..
| and go there in 9.AM ?
|
| too bad the dark red bulb was thrown away together with all the
| other no-use-anymore equipment..
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