[HN Gopher] The Death of the Web (2024)
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The Death of the Web (2024)
Author : mark_mcnally_je
Score : 60 points
Date : 2025-02-13 20:39 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (garry.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (garry.net)
| eimrine wrote:
| Governments did this.
| Kovah wrote:
| Corporate greed did this.
| compiler-devel wrote:
| They both did, but governments enabled corporations to do it.
| RGamma wrote:
| How would government realistically preserve a (in
| hindsight) fragile cultural phenomenon? OTOH a ~difficult
| mandatory PC/internet operator's license might have done
| it.
|
| Now that reminds of the weird Internetfuhrerschein
| ("internet driver's license") courses for nontechnical folk
| in Germany. Though these were entirely optional and so not
| cool.
| fragmede wrote:
| archive.org could have been a government funded
| initiative by the librarians. (not libertarians)
| RGamma wrote:
| That wouldn't have prevented tech bros from hijacking the
| cultural momentum or commoditizing attention. Even a
| maximum fidelity web archive would drown in the noise
| just the same.
| codr7 wrote:
| It's basically the same thing in western countries these
| days.
| szundi wrote:
| Homo sapiens did this
| codr7 wrote:
| More importantly, _we_ allowed it to happen.
| kh_hk wrote:
| We did this.
| hyperhello wrote:
| Once something becomes about the money, it's going to be about
| the money.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| TANSTAAFL [1]
|
| One of my collaborators would say we got seduced by the idea
| that it wasn't about the money. That is, it was cheap enough
| that we could go for a while without thinking how to pay for
| it, then the advertising model looked like an answer.
|
| Early on one would make the comparison to advertising on TV,
| radio, magazines and such. Little did we know that personalized
| advertising would lead to something much worse. I mean, Proctor
| and Gamble, who gave us the soap opera, has been around since
| 1837. Do any of the big YouTube advertisers like all the fake
| food companies or the scam supplement subscription companies or
| Established Titles expect to be around in 2 years?
|
| If people had been thinking about how to pay for it from day
| one we'd be in a different place.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_such_thing_as_a_free_lunch
| imglorp wrote:
| Yes, that's where we went wrong.
|
| I feel that early on, we should have had the foresight to
| press the microtransaction option much harder. There could
| have been a widely adopted standard where you load your
| browser or UA with money and then individual sites visited
| could be given permission to debit some amount per page load,
| hour consumed, or whatever. I would rather pay a few cents to
| read an article or watch a video than have surveillance
| capitalism ruin everything for everyone. It's not about the
| ads, it's about the ecosystem.
| giantrobot wrote:
| That sounds just as bad if not worse than what we have
| today. You'd have to outright pay for your hardware,
| electricity, connectivity, and then on top pay for every
| piece of content. Browsing would suck as there would only
| be bad mechanisms for previewing content before deciding to
| access it (and being charged). Enshittification would still
| happen just like with cable television and video streaming.
| You'd have to pay for access but then still have ads and
| tracking on top.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Credit card payment security was in a dire state, and EC
| wasn't even really a thing yet, so paying anything online
| was just a huge barrier.
|
| Even in retrospect I'm not sure what monetisation would
| have been widely accepted in 1990.
| jmathai wrote:
| Sounds like Brave Attention Tokens [1]. It might have been
| a hard sell 3 decades ago when we didn't realize it would
| turn out like it has.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_(web_browser)#Busin
| ess_m...
| flir wrote:
| Ever heard the expression "bad money drives out good"?
|
| Free content drives out paid-for content. It would only
| take a tiny percentage of sites going ad-supported. All the
| users would rush to them, the microtransaction sites would
| see this, and they would soon change their models.
| monday40 wrote:
| Or, since we pay for access to the internet, let's say like
| $80 per month for home connection, plus $20 per month for
| phone data, and the internet providers know the websites we
| visit (in Australia they have to keep this information for
| 2 years), and can approximate how much time we spend there,
| they could redistribute part of the $100 (50%?) to the
| website owners automatically.
| cobertos wrote:
| I'm not sure mandatory payment could have worked when the
| internet brought down the cost of publishing, which has only
| continued to drop.
|
| Not to mention the incentives to create a way to distribute (
| _cough_ pirate) paid content to people who do not want to
| pay. That would have broken the system from the start. Some
| software nerd somewhere would 've figure that out.
| agumonkey wrote:
| There's money/profit, but there's also society. before
| facebook, the web was a virtual space of pseudos, when reality
| (real name, places, pictures) started to leak in, suddenly
| things get serious. you can bully, impersonate, steal/toy-with
| personal information... rapidly problems occur and need for law
| and morality follows suit.
| nerflad wrote:
| Boiling take: Myspace doesn't get enough historical heat for
| walling the blogosphere while simultaneously Eternal-Septembering
| it.
| tehwebguy wrote:
| A slice of my MySpace experience:
|
| Before MySpace web designers and developers could have work all
| year just working with bands. Band web work basically dried up
| below a certain band success level over a year or two.
|
| But since MySpace allowed custom CSS and had limited built in
| design options it created a new market for custom pages. The
| rates were mostly lower but there were probably 100X the number
| of bands that needed work.
| jmathai wrote:
| HN hug of death - https://archive.is/ylzrL
| Fizzadar wrote:
| Garry used to run/host the Facepunch forums which strongly remind
| me of better times on the web. They were good times.
| jmathai wrote:
| Not every was around when the web was obscure. It's hard to
| explain how magical that time was. The pinnacle of the web for me
| was Audio Galaxy. A website where you could find new music to
| download and even push music to your friend's computer (using the
| Audio Galaxy Satellite app) [1].
|
| I spent so much time in IRC rooms and discussion forums. It
| wasn't doom scrolling. No one was trying to manipulate me for my
| time or money. Perhaps you can think of it like going down a
| rabbit hole of Wikipedia articles. But there were so many people
| sharing so many unique perspectives - some I became friends with
| and many of those remain today.
|
| I felt something like neocities might recapture that feeling. I
| haven't put in enough time to see if that's the case. I do hope
| that for a future generation that they get to experience
| something like the very early web ... it truly was remarkable.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audiogalaxy
| TechDebtDevin wrote:
| I imagine people will have the same nostalgia for doom
| scrolling one day ;)
| unethical_ban wrote:
| We'll have the same nostalgia for being able to travel
| anywhere without our location and emotions catalogued by
| government databases analyzing us for threats to order.
| smb06 wrote:
| Or assigning a national security threat score if we like
| too many Chinese tik tok videos
| RGamma wrote:
| Or nostalgia for better nostalgia.
| thomassmith65 wrote:
| The web is a garbage ecosystem now.
|
| The sad thing is that it would take only about twenty of you
| people, you who came across this post on HN today and are now
| reading this comment, to build an alternative ecosystem.
| nolroz wrote:
| Hat tossed!
| krapp wrote:
| They did, it's called gemini: https://geminiprotocol.net/
| fragmede wrote:
| Where they're coming from is great but as someone unfamiliar
| with what it is (needs a name change in the face of Google
| Gemini) that landing page isn't a moving introduction to the
| project. (hint: The FAQ page is for follow-up questions
| _after_ I 've been told what the thing is and I have
| questions, not to tell me what the thing is)
| thomassmith65 wrote:
| Gemini's inspiration was the "gopher" protocol from the
| early 1990s. Gopher was a text-only precursor to the web -
| plain text with highlighted clickable text links. If you've
| ever used an ancient library computer (green and black
| display), their UI was essentially the same as gopher.
| fragmede wrote:
| it's not their fault Google came along and used that
| name, but they did, so here we are.
| krapp wrote:
| To be fair, names based on Greek and Roman mythology were
| overplayed back when NASA was using them. Calling
| anything "Gemini" is about as uncreative as one can get.
| thomassmith65 wrote:
| I actually considered linking to gemini in my comment!
|
| The reason I didn't is to avoid a discussion of how I
| _personally_ would design tools for an alternate web. I think
| gemini is a step in the right direction, but not enough to
| supplant the web for a large enough minority of users. Not
| that it takes many users - the web was vibrant in 1995 with
| 100x fewer people on it than today.
|
| I don't know that the specific qualities I _personally_ would
| want for a web replacement are the right ones for everybody,
| but I would add to the philosophy of gemini some sort of
| control - not necessarily centralized - to curb commercial
| activity and abuse. To attract users, it would also need more
| cultural cache than Gemini. There wouldn 't be much content
| on it at first - unless its design found a loophole to
| facilitate piracy - so its early adopters would need to feel
| like they were part of some exclusive community.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I loved the idea, but after testing a bit, I found it was too
| alienating (coming from someone who likes ed, sed and vi).
| Especially the searching / browsing ergonomics. Maybe there
| was some news there ?
| aklemm wrote:
| 20 engineers are going to solve misaligned incentives and bot
| automation?
| thomassmith65 wrote:
| 20 people would have an impossible time trying to fix the
| existing web because they would be up against FA*NG companies
| etc.
|
| But if 20 people design an alternate system (protocol,
| browser, security features, etc) from scratch, and their
| incentives are right, yes they could come up with decent
| protections against users with bad incentives and against
| bots.
| hylaride wrote:
| I feel everything in this article as somebody who first got
| online when I was 13 in 1994. In those days you got bullied for
| being "good at computers" (especially in the rural area I grew up
| in) and the communities formed on IRC and early multiplayer
| gaming networks were a lifesaver. Many websites were written by
| college students who essentially "blogged" their newly discovered
| free lives, which was so appealing to my teen-aged self.
|
| It's cliche to malign mass market consumerism, but it really is a
| lowest common denominator phenomenon. I feel like the internet
| has made grifting so scalable that it's getting more and more
| difficult to consume.
| datadrivenangel wrote:
| This is from the Garry of Garry's Mod (GMOD) fame.
| reidrac wrote:
| I was reading the post and pop-up on the bottom appeared:
|
| _An error has occurred. This application may no longer respond
| until reloaded. Reload_
|
| The death of the web, indeed.
| tboyd47 wrote:
| I tend to think Section 230 is what caused this, and repealing it
| can unravel everything back to how it was in 1996. Yet people act
| so protective over it.
| throw7 wrote:
| For me the start of the decline is when Netscape went under.
| Billy @ Microsoft threw his weight around and IE dominated
| (sigh). The final nail in the coffin is when mozilla suite was
| torn apart and the browser was renamed Seamonkey. No really.
| "Seamonkey" is what was decided.
|
| I do look back at the early 90's with nostalgia. Too bad you can
| never go back.
| RyanOD wrote:
| I often feel this way about a lot of things where I was present
| during the genesis moment. Then I remind myself that I'm getting
| older and likely misremembering what it was really like - fun and
| exciting, but not very useful.
|
| Moreover, I feel like this perspective fails to acknowledge
| everyone globally who benefits massively from simply having
| access to information I take for granted - even if it is
| surrounded by ads.
|
| Lastly, I get that the proliferation of apps for tangible goods
| is frustrating, but there is an answer...just don't purchase that
| item! I've passed on loads of purchases because I don't want
| another app. I once went to a Mariners game and forgot I had my
| Leatherman in my pocket. Understandably, they wouldn't let me in,
| but told me I could use a nearby locker which required I install
| an app. I gave my ticket to someone else and walked back to work.
| No big deal.
| fuzztester wrote:
| >Lastly, I get that the proliferation of apps for tangible
| goods is frustrating,
|
| I had the same experience with a mobile service provider that I
| use, recently.
|
| since the last few days, the USSD code that used to work to
| find my prepaid recharge expiry date, so that I could recharge
| again in time, does not work. it doesn't even give a proper
| error message. it just suddenly exits, and tell me to install
| an app for that purpose.
|
| mobile self service / IVR features are brain dead, and don't
| work a lot of the time anyway. I don't know what the reason is,
| except stupidity.
| Maconha wrote:
| they've been pushing this version of the Internet on us forever.
| first compuserv, then aol, yahoo, Google, FB, now x/tiktok.
| everything gets ruined once it goes critical mass. we loved those
| days because it was pure freedom. choose your own adventure. now
| we get force fed crap we never asked for.
|
| we didn't need to monetize anything. you need power, a computer,
| and a connection, that's it. that's not too hard to pay for. they
| printed a bunch of money and created things we didn't need or
| want. .com bubble my ass. how much of those trillions over the
| years have actually produced value? nay, it was an easy way to
| build wealth and suck up printed money while they on-boarded
| users who will never know those times but always silently long
| for them. who was it that said be careful who you give your power
| to?
| stevage wrote:
| I have a theory that part of why you don't see such great niche
| sites now is that they were the productive of cognitive surplus.
| People had spare brain power and not that much to do with it, so
| they built and contributed to fun sites.
|
| Now, FB and YouTube and Tiktok etc have gotten very good at
| consuming all that free time and energy.
|
| Just a theory.
| nicbou wrote:
| They have become good at capturing that surplus. People are
| still doing amazing things, and these platforms give them the
| tools to publish videos, an audience, and monetisation
| opportunities. However the platforms giveth, then taketh away.
| MarioMan wrote:
| The wild thing is that the web has achieved both the aspirations
| and the failings mentioned here. There's an odd dichotomy of user
| experiences.
|
| Progress really has accelerated. "Big data" couldn't have been a
| thing without the Internet. Science through improved
| communication is advancing more rapidly than ever before. Just
| look at how quickly things change today vs. 100 years ago in all
| aspects of life.
|
| Knowledge is everywhere, you just need to know where to dig to
| work around all of the junk. You no longer need to take up an
| apprenticeship to understand the basics of a given job, and
| knowledge as a whole is more accessible than ever before.
|
| We really can communicate with people all over the world. The
| Internet is always active, because users from across the globe
| are always online.
|
| The Internet has accelerated globalism. People can readily expose
| themselves to outside ideas and perspectives, so long as they
| take the effort to step outside of their algorithm-prescribed
| interest bubbles every once in a while. You can make friends on
| the other side of the planet and communicate far easier than you
| could ever send letters or pay for long-distance phone calls.
|
| People still make their own websites. I'm sure there are more of
| them then there ever were in the '90s, they're just significantly
| harder to surface in the deluge of the modern Internet.
|
| Ads, pop-ups, and modals are only experienced by people that
| don't know about worthwhile ad/nuisance blockers.
|
| Ultimately, the Internet is filled with _more_ content rather
| than strictly _better_ content than ever before. Though as a
| consequence of more, it means there 's also more great knowledge
| and more likeminded subcultures available than ever before, but
| you need a certain kind of discipline to actively work to find
| it. This is why I feel that information literacy is one of the
| most important life skills: if you can find the "good stuff",
| discriminate fact from fiction, and dig deeper than an AI-
| generated Google summary of search results, then you have the
| means to learn and develop talents in just about anything.
| gloomyday wrote:
| The death of the Internet was so insidious. I guess I trusted too
| much that what people built would remain the same. Once a few
| players took over their respective niches, they opened up a
| Pandora Box of ways to make money.
|
| I miss finding niche forums where we saw a number of very active
| members, and we could distinguish them. There was often great
| care curating their content. These communities have been
| concentrating on Reddit, and I don't like it.
| fuzztester wrote:
| does anyone remember MyWay or Neoplanet?
|
| the former was a website / pre-social-media-but-like-it site,
| with an email service, iirc, and the latter was a web browser.
|
| I used them for a while, I thought they were good for a while.
| after that I don't remember what happened. they probably shutdown
| sometime later.
|
| but they were interesting at the time.
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