[HN Gopher] The year I didn't survive
___________________________________________________________________
The year I didn't survive
Author : LaurenSerino
Score : 839 points
Date : 2025-02-12 02:07 UTC (20 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (bessstillman.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (bessstillman.substack.com)
| __lbracket__ wrote:
| I know it wasn't the intention of the author in the slightest,
| but I feel so small and incapable after reading that piece. Good
| luck bess.
| wonger_ wrote:
| Very sad. In case you didn't open the link yet, this is from the
| widow of Jake Seliger, who was very active on HN:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=jseliger. He died a few
| months ago.
|
| Grieving while being a new mom must be brutal.
| LorenDB wrote:
| Checked his profile. His last comment was an archive.ph link to
| bypass a paywall. If that's not a great HN legacy, I don't know
| what is.
| DC-3 wrote:
| It was on the day he died, too.
| LorenzoGood wrote:
| I noticed the same. What a guy.
| tasuki wrote:
| > Grieving while being a new mom must be brutal.
|
| As always, yes and no. I'm a single father, my partner died
| when our daughter was 1.5 years old. A baby requires constant
| attention and care, so I didn't quite have the option of
| falling into some kind of depression and just doing nothing.
|
| That said, I quite miss the abundant free time I used to have
| in my other life. Nowadays is constant battle about the
| littlest things. I pour the milk the wrong way and get screamed
| at for 15 minutes.
| Trollmann wrote:
| > I didn't quite have the option of falling into some kind of
| depression and just doing nothing
|
| Don't know if this was your intention but this comes across
| as if having a depression was a choice, which it rarely is
| with any kind of illness.
| sneak wrote:
| Not sure why you're being downvoted; plenty of new parents
| let mental illness come between them and their
| responsibilities to their child/ren.
|
| They didn't have the option of neglecting their kids
| either; somehow it doesn't stop them from doing so anyway.
| tasuki wrote:
| Wikipedia says "Depression is a mental state of low mood
| and aversion to activity" - that's what I meant.
|
| Mental illness is I think a different thing. Depression
| doesn't imply mental illness, nor does mental illness
| imply depression. I understand and agree that many people
| let mental illness come between them and whatever. It's a
| problem. It's just a different problem.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Yet you used the word "let", which implies agency and
| choice.
| tasuki wrote:
| It's difficult to say what is a choice and what isn't. Is
| anything my choice? Perhaps the world is deterministic, so
| nothing is anyone's choice. But also, I have seen people
| who seemingly choose to wallow in their grief.
|
| Also what is depression? I'm very sad that my partner died.
| I miss her. Some people have a chemical imbalance in their
| body. These are entirely different things. Perhaps I
| shouldn't have used that word, which has so many different
| meanings as to lose meaning altogether.
|
| When you have a kid and don't want to get out of bed the
| whole day, eventually the kid is hungry enough to start
| screaming, and it will keep screaming until you get out of
| bed and feed it. It really is in everyone's mutual
| interest, depression or not. It's harder to stay depressed
| when you have to do things. It's easier to stay depressed
| when you can lie in bed the whole day.
| Trollmann wrote:
| Thanks for restating, I get where you're coming from.
| Also your reply to another comment made me realize this
| is also a language mixup on my side. I didn't realize
| there is a depression (mood) in English. My native
| language has the major depressive disorder as depression,
| not sure if there is a term for the mood. Sorry for not
| checking this assumption before but I guess my perception
| of suggesting 'have you tried not being depressed?' just
| didn't sit well with me.
| MyOutfitIsVague wrote:
| "Depression" isn't just the name of a disorder.
| codemixture wrote:
| No, it's rarely a choice, but having people (or even pets!)
| that depend on you is literally life-saving for many.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| It is never a choice and it is always a choice because it
| is fundamentally an internal psychological battle.
|
| I personally think that viewing it as a choice is the more
| productive of the two. That is to say, people have the
| choice to persevere, keep trying to improve, and trying to
| recover. Nothing will change without intent.
| Tade0 wrote:
| > I pour the milk the wrong way and get screamed at for 15
| minutes.
|
| All too familiar.
|
| Occasionally I stop to think what would I do if my SO passed
| away suddenly. I've found that it's easier to think about my
| own death than this.
|
| Anyway, I hope you'll get some much needed downtime
| eventually.
| tasuki wrote:
| We all do! It's called death. The great equalizer :)
| Tade0 wrote:
| I was on the fence whether to add "...and not in a
| coffin" to that last paragraph.
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| I just hope she has the support she needs
| pbronez wrote:
| If you want to help, she has a Go Fund Me here
|
| https://www.gofundme.com/f/secure-a-bright-future-for-
| bess-a...
| jackconsidine wrote:
| Oh man, I'm really sorry to see Jake passed. I read their updates
| every few months when they'd land on HN; it made me sad to see
| the past tense of "dying" this time. Rest in peace
| dredmorbius wrote:
| The death announcement FWIW:
| <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41201555>
| kbarmettler wrote:
| Her words lived.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| Remember this tragedy and the millions like it when you read the
| news today.
|
| Trump and Musk are killing the very research that has a shot at
| saving lives and preventing these families from being torn apart.
| NIH and NSF are being gutted. Universities won't be able to do
| bio research at all under the new 15% cap on NIH indirect costs.
|
| These decisions which save no appreciable amount of money have a
| real impact on people whose children must now grow up without
| them. As a new father this is really heartbreaking.
| bamboozled wrote:
| It's really hard to comprehend, and what's more incredible is
| that people are "cheering" for this? What the actual hell is
| going on.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| People don't believe indirect costs actually fund research
| and accordingly see this as directing _more_ money into
| important, life-saving research.
|
| From their perspective, the origin of this thread is someone
| using a tragedy to emotionally manipulate on behalf of
| bloated institutions and their administrations -- and every
| bit as monstrous as you believe their views are. Perhaps even
| more so.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| Bio research needs buildings. Electricity, heat, lights
| need to be on in those buildings and they need maintenance.
| Labs need equipment and often very specialized and
| expensive space. Not to mention someone needs to do
| accounting, payroll, taxes, immigration, maintenance,
| legal, ethics, etc. And all of these people need
| facilities, offices, computers, etc. Just like any
| corporation!
|
| These are indirect costs. You cannot do research without
| them.
|
| What's going to happen if the government cuts off most
| indirect costs is that we're going to be forced to do
| research that can be covered by those costs.
|
| So, no, more money isn't going to go to better research.
| It's going to go to much worse research and it will be a
| massive waste.
|
| Instead of doing the best research I can, I'll need to
| think about the lowest overhead projects so that my
| department doesn't go bankrupt. That means taking no risks,
| avoiding new data collection, not starting up anything
| radically new that might not have an immediate payoff, etc.
| That's a bad deal for everyone!
|
| Good scientists don't want to do bad research. The best
| will leave.
|
| This will destroy the lead that the US has in science and
| technology over the rest of the world. Never mind kill
| countless people who would have been saved by new
| treatments.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| > What's going to happen if the government cuts off most
| indirect costs is that we're going to be forced to do
| research that can be covered by those costs.
|
| The whole debate is whether 15% indirect costs is
| sufficient or whether it needs to be 30%+. Without a
| doubt universities are bloated and many don't invest
| appropriately in their facilities -- but where is the
| appropriate line?
|
| Unfortunately, you didn't add to that debate: you assumed
| the conclusion and then catastrophized based on your
| assumption. That exact style of argumentation is what
| makes people distrust that 30%+ really is needed --
| because nobody itemizes how, they just immediately resort
| to shaming and emotional manipulation.
|
| > That means taking no risks, avoiding new data
| collection, not starting up anything radically new that
| might not have an immediate payoff, etc.
|
| That's compounded by all your personal examples of how
| this impacts you being direct costs -- which have
| _greater_ funding, with this change. And your claim that
| you can no longer do them dubious at best.
| kelnos wrote:
| This thinking is completely backward. If there is an
| established threshold, and you want to change it, it is
| on you to do the homework to determine that the lower
| threshold will be sufficient and won't cause harm. It's
| not the responsibility of the people currently doing
| research (the way they've done so for years) to justify
| the current threshold.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| The executive in charge of the grant-giving agencies
| changed policy -- after looking at rates from other
| grants, which fell in the 10-15% range.
|
| If you want the public to believe that was wrong, you'll
| need to make that case.
| bamboozled wrote:
| May I ask what your actual gripe is with level of
| spending that was going into research before?
|
| Is there actual evidence that shows there was an issue
| that needed to be immediately addressed the way it was?
| Some evidence of "fraud" perhaps ?
| zmgsabst wrote:
| Discussions with university researchers I know personally
| indicated an inappropriate amount was going to the
| university at large, rather than project funding.
| bamboozled wrote:
| Why not just address that singular issue (if true and
| truly problematic) just be addressed then get back to
| business as usual ?
|
| How do you know the money going to the university isn't
| just forwarded onto the professors so they are funded?
| Doesn't sound that suspicious to me.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| No they didn't look at other grants!
|
| They looked at a handful of cherry picked charities that
| love to donate to high profile projects. Universities
| subsidize these grants internally to get other donations!
|
| When I get money from say the Gates foundation, they are
| almost always topping up existing research not doing
| something new. On a high profile topic donors are
| attracted to.
|
| These cherry picked foundations also give very little
| money; well under 1% of what we bring in. So the lack of
| indirect costs has a minor effect on the system that gets
| balanced by other well meaning donors.
|
| Had they looked at other grants they would have seen that
| the indirect costs are in line with what NIH was paying.
| The bulk of other grants includes NSF, DARPA, ONR, etc.
|
| Or they could have asked, when a corporation gives a
| university money, what do they think is a reasonable
| overhead rate? Because we don't accept money from for
| profit entities at anything less than the full overhead
| rate. And corporations pay it because it's reasonable.
| That's because they fund a lot of research and because
| they aren't a charity we would subsidize with other
| donations.
|
| Or they could ask. When a corporation gets an NIH grant,
| what are their indirect costs? Are university indirect
| costs in line? After all everyone needs to keep the
| lights on.
|
| Corporations are not subject to the cap at all! They can
| get a grant and charge 100% overhead. This only applies
| to universities. The government could not give a biotech
| company a grant with 15% overhead, no company would ever
| take it.
|
| I have seen the indirect costs that some major
| corporations charge. 100% is low for them! And the
| government pays it. In every single contract with
| industry.
|
| Except for universities. That they single out to dry to
| drive into insolvency.
|
| So no. They didn't look at other grants. They could have
| computed countless statistics against tens of millions of
| grants for hundreds of billions of dollars. They picked
| the most elite nice small charities that give out a few
| hundred grants that we fund ourselves for the most
| bleeding heart projects.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| > The bulk of other grants includes NSF, DARPA, ONR, etc.
|
| You only listed peer government grant agencies -- which
| people believe have similar problems to NIH.
|
| > And the government pays it. In every single contract
| with industry.
|
| And the same people generally believe that's _also_ full
| of fraud and waste. So what's your argument?
|
| > They could have computed countless statistics against
| tens of millions of grants for hundreds of billions of
| dollars.
|
| So why don't you do that, to prove them wrong? It sounds
| really easy.
| light_hue_1 wrote:
| > You only listed peer government grant agencies -- which
| people believe have similar problems to NIH.
|
| No. I also gave two other options.
|
| Get the overhead rate of corporations from government
| contracts.
|
| Or get the overhead rate that corporations pay to
| universities, just like the government.
|
| > And the same people generally believe that's also full
| of fraud and waste. So what's your argument?
|
| So then compare overhead rates in commercial contracts
| between corporations.
|
| > So why don't you do that, to prove them wrong? It
| sounds really easy.
|
| Oh yes. I will send NIH, Musk, and Trump a letter, they
| will realize the error of their ways and change course.
| Come on. Now you aren't discussing things in good faith.
|
| Although for the record major universities, including
| mine, have already written such letters to the
| administration. Much good that did.
|
| All of these numbers are publicly available. Feel free to
| look them up. It's bread and butter economics.
|
| But no. This isn't about proving anyone wrong. These
| people don't care about right or wrong. We are so past
| that. This is about their attempt to break the system.
| The fallout of which will be disastrous.
|
| The impact of the wholesale dismantlement of our research
| capacity won't be seen by the average person for a while.
| Maybe a good 10 to 20 years. Then slowly you'll notice
| that all of the new companies, medicines, etc. have a
| different language on them, their names sound a bit
| foreign, that foreign stock markets are getting
| attractive, and that someone else is getting rich instead
| of us.
|
| Restarting research will be nearly impossible. Europe has
| been trying to restart its research enterprise for more
| than half a century and the US still dominates despite
| massive EU investment. The biggest winner will be China
| who is paying a lot to attract researchers.
| bamboozled wrote:
| I call bullshit because as the other poster said, research
| will not happen in an island, there are much much less
| invasive ways to cut spending than what is happening.
|
| I have a friend who is caught up in this and it is chaos.
|
| Putting the fox in charge of the hen house is where it went
| wrong.
| dsign wrote:
| That terrible brutal grief is what death leaves us every time. I
| remember Jake's posts. He fought, and he all of us to fight.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZYNADOHhVY
| tombert wrote:
| It's weird how a series of big things happening in a short period
| of time changes who you are as a person, and not always for the
| better.
|
| When I failed to stop an acquaintance from killing himself a few
| years ago [1], it really fucked me up. I barely knew the guy, but
| I couldn't stop myself from feeling guilty over it, and I still
| have nightmares about it.
|
| It led to a severe funk of depression that I still haven't gotten
| over, and it's led to poor sleep, poor performance at work, an
| increased irritability towards pretty much everyone, and I'm not
| completely convinced that that will ever stop.
|
| I've seen therapists, taken various medications for depression
| and PTSD, trauma dumped onto pretty much anyone who will listen,
| and I think I'm a worse person now than I was in 2021.
|
| I guess the likelihood of an event like this happening approaches
| 1 as you get older, but it doesn't mean it's not terrible.
|
| [1] Written in some detail here
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29185822
| danparsonson wrote:
| I was reflecting just yesterday how, as we get older, gradually
| more and more of those who have been part of our sphere for
| significant portions of our lives (whether direct
| acquaintances, or just people who we know because of their
| public actions) begin to leave us, and how everyone who passes,
| whoever they are and however well we knew them, leaves a space
| that can't be filled.
|
| I'm truly sorry for all that you've been through and I hope you
| find comfort. Reading through your other post it seems likely
| to me that nothing you said or did could have made any
| difference.
| tombert wrote:
| > I'm truly sorry for all that you've been through and I hope
| you find comfort. Reading through your other post it seems
| likely to me that nothing you said or did could have made any
| difference.
|
| Yeah I know, that's not really why I feel guilty, at least
| not exactly. I feel guilty because I noticed signs of someone
| who was suicidal, and explicitly _chose_ to _not_ do
| anything. Even if nothing would have changed, I still think I
| should have _tried_ to do something, even if it was futile.
|
| It feels like the universe was giving me a character test,
| and it feels like I failed it. I would like to think that
| when push comes to shove, I'd do the right thing, at least in
| regards to someone's life being on the line, but I guess at
| some fundamental level that's simply not true, or at least it
| wasn't in 2021.
|
| I mean, I realize that no good comes from feeling bad about
| myself over it, certainly not for three years, but human
| psychology is pretty annoying sometimes.
| bamboozled wrote:
| For what it's worth, don't do this, you also know you need
| to give people space and in hindsight, because of what
| happened, you only now think should've done something but
| I'm sure there were wholesome reasons why you avoided
| intervening in the first place.
|
| Just as easily they didn't make the attempt and you
| would've thought you made the right call.
|
| It's not on you.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| Guilt and shame are two of the most complex and difficult
| to grapple with human emotions. You definitely didn't do
| anything wrong, but some people's brains will latch onto
| guilt like a vice regardless. And it can happen regardless
| of the rational part of the brain knowing that you didn't
| do anything wrong.
|
| I have the same type of problem. The one thing that's
| finally helped a little bit is allowing myself to feel the
| guilt (and all the emotions surrounding it) fully. Normally
| I try to push it down (because I don't actually have
| anything to feel guilty for), but suppressed emotions
| continue to live forever, and they will surface in your
| body and mind in many ways. Allowing myself to feel it
| gives me room to process the emotion finally.
|
| Easier said than done, of course. You can't just turn the
| emotions on and off like a light switch, especially because
| the brain forms protective mechanisms to prevent you from
| feeling it. I've had some luck with IFS and somatic
| therapies.
| beachtaxidriver wrote:
| I read your original post and almost every reasonable
| person would have paused, but then have written it off as
| dark humor by someone they didn't know that well.
|
| The only reason you might think there were "signs" you
| should have caught now is because of what happened but no
| one could have known in advance.
|
| From a total Internet stranger, give yourself some grace.
| Or what I have also heard: Judge yourself the way you would
| judge a good friend in the same situation. We often judge
| ourselves super harshly!!
| tombert wrote:
| > The only reason you might think there were "signs" you
| should have caught now is because of what happened but no
| one could have known in advance.
|
| Not quite that simple. I remember sitting in my bed that
| night, wrestling with whether or not I should call the
| police or something, and I explicitly chose to do nothing
| because I didn't want him to think I was weird.
|
| Maybe my mind is blowing it up worse than it was, but
| that's how I remember it.
| IgorPartola wrote:
| One thing to also consider: generally speaking you likely
| had no chance in convincing him or saving him. It's awful
| to feel powerless. I recently had a somewhat similar
| situation with a friend. I knew he was struggling. I was
| going to reach out to him the day he was found dead. It
| was under somewhat strange circumstances so it took a
| couple of months to get the report back on what the
| authorities thought happened, which turned out to be a
| spontaneous health issue and not any deliberate act. But
| when a healthy man in his 20s is found dead you rarely
| think "brain aneurysm" so I and other people in his life
| struggled to make sense of what happened.
|
| One of the more helpful things I was told was that there
| is nothing you can do if someone is determined to end
| their life. No intervention, no amount of reaching out,
| nothing. And that is a powerless place to be but it also
| means that you not calling the police the night your
| acquaintance died is likely not the deciding factor in
| this case.
|
| Find a way to forgive yourself. Talk about your
| experience. To friends, to strangers, to a therapist.
| EMDR is great, from what I hear but even talk therapy is
| a really good place to start processing. I hope you find
| a way out of this, one internet stranger to another.
| danparsonson wrote:
| > Maybe my mind is blowing it up worse than it was, but
| that's how I remember it.
|
| This is important actually - human memory is much more
| fragile than most people realise; we can and regularly do
| invent entire episodes in our heads, to retroactively
| explain some fact we have later come to know, or to fit
| some other thing that we have misremembered.
|
| It's entirely possible that it didn't go down exactly as
| you remember, but rather your feelings are sharpening the
| memory and exaggerating your perceived misstep.
| fragmede wrote:
| Put it this way: the next time life puts a similar decision
| before you, would you still "fail"? If you believe in life
| teaching you lessons, one way to frame it is to look past
| how you feel and look at the actions/decisions concerning
| other people you've made since then. Are they the same
| decisions/actions you would have made before? Or did that
| one particular interaction manage to change your behavior?
| tombert wrote:
| I have tried to be a bit more sensitive and observant
| about this kind of stuff now.
| zmgsabst wrote:
| I don't know you personally, so what I say may not be
| relevant, but these sentences stood out to me:
|
| > I feel guilty because I noticed signs of someone who was
| suicidal, and explicitly chose to not do anything.
|
| > It feels like the universe was giving me a character
| test, and it feels like I failed it.
|
| So why not choose to do something different now?
|
| Perhaps why you feel enduringly bad is because those events
| disrupted your self-narrative and that never recovered. Why
| not create facts that support a new narrative about how
| failing then led to you being a better person now? -- eg,
| volunteering.
|
| To have a purpose and to give meaning to things are
| important parts of how we, as humans, process such events.
| At least, according to Frankl.
|
| Regardless, I hope you feel better.
| tombert wrote:
| > So why not choose to do something different now?
|
| I mean, sure, I haven't really had the same level of
| "moral character test" since then, I would like to think
| I'd do better now, but it's of course impossible to say.
|
| > Why not create facts that support a new narrative about
| how failing then led to you being a better person now? --
| eg, volunteering.
|
| I tried teaching for a few semesters primarily for
| emotional satisfaction reasons, and that had its moments,
| though that also made me realize that I am have a lot of
| emotional baggage that I need to work through.
|
| At this point I have been just trying to keep myself busy
| with personal projects and diving deep into useless
| computer science theory. Fortunately, I never got into
| drinking or doing drugs, so all things considered reading
| used textbooks isn't the worst vice.
| Survived wrote:
| Many years ago, when I was a very young man, out late one
| night walking home from the bar, I happened upon a man
| standing outside the railing of the bridge I was crossing.
|
| Without really thinking about it, I stopped, asked him if
| he needed help, tried to get him talking. He did talk to me
| for a while, but when I looked away to try and get a
| passing car to call for some help, he jumped.
|
| I told my coworkers about it the next day, and it just
| seemed to make them uncomfortable. I didn't feel quite
| right about what had happened, but I wasn't sure why.
|
| I had had a pretty crappy youth, my mom died when I was ten
| years old, and that was followed by a solid decade of rough
| times. I was no stranger to serious depression and had, by
| then, consciously decided I would not kill myself, after
| giving it serious thought.
|
| I called a close friend of mine and told him the story. He
| had also lost his mother young. He just asked me one
| question and I immediately understood. He asked "Why did
| you stop?"
|
| I myself had decided not to take my own life, but I
| believed I had the right to do so. Here I was, insinuating
| myself into a most intense and private moment this stranger
| to me was having. I would not have wanted that for myself.
|
| I don't regret stopping that night. I would however, do
| things differently should it happen again.
|
| I realize that some words on your screen are unlikely to
| make you feel much better about it, but I hope you do.
|
| Now the shitball who yelled "jump" out of his window as he
| drove by, I hope that asshole is wracked with guilt still,
| twenty-five years later. Probably not though, feeling bad,
| like you have been, is the sign of a good person.
| DFHippie wrote:
| I think actually you likely improved the last moment of
| that man's life. You were a last witness to his
| existence. He didn't die utterly alone.
| danparsonson wrote:
| > Yeah I know, that's not really why I feel guilty, at
| least not exactly. I feel guilty because I noticed signs of
| someone who was suicidal, and explicitly chose to not do
| anything. Even if nothing would have changed, I still think
| I should have tried to do something, even if it was futile.
|
| I understand; I have some similar regrets although perhaps
| not on the same scale. You held yourself to a certain
| standard, so you're disappointed in yourself that you
| didn't reach it.
|
| I suppose this is the difference between knowing the path
| and walking the path - in theory we all know how we want to
| react in such a situation but when the time comes, the
| reality is often not exactly what we imagined and so we are
| still unprepared and make a choice that we come to regret.
| I think it's like any disaster - you'll get it wrong the
| first few times, no matter how prepared you think you are.
|
| Thin consolation I know; like I said, I hope you can come
| to terms with it.
| dwaltrip wrote:
| We all fuck things up. Life is really hard and complicated.
|
| It wasn't a character test. That's a narrative that you are
| telling yourself. It was a thing that happened. In the
| past. Same thing with "it shouldn't take 3 years to get
| over this". Says who? It takes what it takes.
|
| Our life is a garden, we can only tend it as best we can.
| The plants grow how they grow.
|
| Let yourself grieve as you let go of old narratives and
| rediscover yourself and your life in each moment.
|
| For me, narratives like this were an attempt at being a
| "good person" who "deserved to be loved". I've slowly and
| painfully learned that isn't how it works. We are all
| worthy of love. Love isn't earned, it is a gift that we
| give and receive. I'm learning how to receive it, most
| importantly from myself. It's the hardest and most
| beautiful thing.
|
| I offer these words in the hope that they are helpful and
| to share things I've learned. Take them if they are, forget
| them if they are not.
|
| Sending love and wishing you the best. I've been there.
| It's hard. But time will pass, things will change, and it
| gets better.
| fallous wrote:
| Yes, one of the things that often gets overlooked about aging
| is that if you live long enough everyone you knew, and knew
| you, from certain eras of your life are gone... and that
| tends to make your life more ephemeral. Even the settings of
| your life are slowly removed, be it the house you grew up in,
| schools you attended, parks and other areas you played in
| with friends, businesses, styles, products, and technologies.
| One day you may find yourself looking around and finding
| nothing and no one that anchors you to the present.
|
| This inevitability is something you should stave off as long
| as possible. Meet new people, add new experiences, learn new
| things while avoiding the siren call of nostalgia and the
| comfort of limiting yourself to the familiar.
| miningape wrote:
| As a youngest child by about 15 years it kinda hurts
| knowing that likely I'll be the one attending everyone
| else's funerals.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| It is likely, but life has very strange ways.
| askonomm wrote:
| Oh no. Am 32 and I really like the comfort of familiar.
| I've lived a hell of a life in my 20s, spanning multiple
| countries and continents, and now feel like I've lived many
| lifetimes worth of life, and am really loving the peace and
| quiet I now have.
| raddan wrote:
| I'm sorry to hear that. And you're right, the likelihood
| approaches 1 as we get older. And that's if we're lucky!
|
| Don't be too hard on yourself. Those who have experienced loss
| understand that sometimes we have to step back from things,
| life, our careers. It's ok to do it. It's your life, and the
| one of the greatest joys of life is: you get to choose how to
| live it.
|
| I hope you bounce back. But take your time.
| schneems wrote:
| I'm sorry you went though that.
|
| I had a friend die by suicide. Shortly after I met him for the
| first time IRL. It messed me up.
|
| I'm sure you've heard it before but for the gallery, there's
| the "in the moment" suicides where the thought comes and people
| act on it. If anyone feels that way, please call a hotline, it
| really is just a temporary feeling that will pass. Then there's
| the "sick for a long time." My therapist described this group
| as having an unhealthy brain. They're taking in inputs like
| normal, but producing harmful urges. That sickness isn't a
| thing others can counter or take on for themselves. There's
| professional help if you (the reader) are feeling like this
| constantly. But like all sicknesses sometimes even the best
| treatments aren't enough. (Therefore we should not blame
| ourselves for what we could have done differently).
|
| Knowing that still doesn't make it better, but it makes it
| lighter. For me, anyway.
| metanonsense wrote:
| In my opinion, there's also a third (and certainly
| controversial) option: suicide is the ultimate expression of
| freedom, self actualization, and human dignity. I don't plan
| to kill myself in the foreseeable future, but the thought
| that I could gives me hope, power, and removes any fear from
| my life. A friend of mine is 94 and lives in constant, non-
| treatable pain, and the thought that she can end her life
| when she decides to do so makes things bearable for her.
|
| I know that this ultimate freedom is also ultimate
| selfishness, because the loss is felt by your close ones, not
| you. But this makes me perhaps an asshole, but not sick.
| criddell wrote:
| What you describe is how I've always thought about the
| phrase _memento mori_.
| genewitch wrote:
| 988 in the us in telephones
| BoingBoomTschak wrote:
| The idea that something is fundamentally wrong with your
| brain when you do it is very naive. Despair exists and the
| problems aren't always "just in your head".
| 0_____0 wrote:
| Over the past decade I've come to the conclusion that there is
| no healing from some things. There will remain a pit in one's
| soul where something was torn out of it, and the only thing to
| do is build past it. Reroute around the damage.
|
| I was someone's last phone call. I lost her when I was 16.
| fendy3002 wrote:
| it's unfortunate, and it's so bad a feeling like that eroding
| someone just because they're kind or emphatetic.
|
| which is why I feel like I'm slowly becoming assholes because
| it's hard to have that kind of emphatetic feeling while still
| being sane in nowadays world. It's kinda sad that to have a
| healthy mental someone need to be less emphatetic.
| raziel2p wrote:
| I resonate with what you say, but try to think of it
| differently: if you are able to take better care of yourself,
| even if that feels like in an egotistical fashion, you will
| have more energy for empathy. smaller slice of a bigger pie.
|
| don't know if that's actually true, of course.
| guynamedloren wrote:
| Fuck. Reading the original post on Something Awful, then your
| experience in 2021 in the days leading up, and then this all
| these years later... it's just harrowing. I'm so sorry.
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| But the fact that you're still here, still processing, still
| reaching out, means something. You're not a worse person.
| You're a person who went through something deeply painful, and
| that pain doesn't define your entire story.
| woliveirajr wrote:
| > not always for the better
|
| Things happen and you adapt to survive it. And survival mode
| isn't made to make you happy, to become more generous or to
| expect more loyalty. And once your worldview changes for a
| pessimistic one, it'll taint everything around you (especially
| the new interactions with people)
|
| Yes, some people change to be better: and that means (and I say
| it painfully) that many of them were the ones that caused
| unnecessary pain in others.
|
| Some reference: https://www.hss.edu/conditions_emotional-
| impact-pain-experie...
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/341577702_Lacan_on_...
|
| https://europepmc.org/article/med/33126037
| fossuser wrote:
| The other posts on her substack are also worth reading (and the
| earlier ones from his perspective) - I read through a bunch of
| them last August when one was posted. A tragic story well told,
| something that waits for all of us.
| smackeyacky wrote:
| The only measure for love is loss
| trogdor wrote:
| I don't understand that at all. Would you explain what you
| mean?
| darkknight107 wrote:
| So sad to hear. I know the words of a stranger probably do not
| matter but trust me when I say this, you'll get through this.
| Sending you virtual hugs.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| My son had cancer during COVID, though he was fortunate enough to
| beat it into remission (with the help of a huge care team).
|
| I was active duty military, and he is also non-verbal and
| autistic.
|
| The things she talks about, how focused she was and how hard it
| is to do any of that now, I've been experiencing exactly the same
| things. I find it hard to do anything, put anything together,
| etc. after 3 years of managing his care closely, being at his
| bedside all hours, having to scream at nurses to call away a code
| because he couldn't breathe (anaphylaxis), and a ton of other
| things. All of this while working 50+ hours a week, including
| remotely from his bedside.
|
| It's like I burnt out that part of me. Maybe I'm slowly healing?
| But I don't feel like it. I get minutes or hours when I can hit
| that stride again and it's absolutely terrifying to realize that
| I can no longer keep it up.
|
| I don't know that this comment adds anything to her story. I just
| felt like I understood her on a level that's hard to communicate
| and had the urge to share that.
| justforaoneoff wrote:
| COVID coincided with my daughter being born, my parents dying
| unexpectedly and my partner having complete mental breakdown
| all while I was working a very stressful job with long hours
| and high stakes. Years have passed and I still feel like the
| battered husk of the person I was. I have good days and bad
| days but I'm slowly coming to accept I won't ever feel the
| confidence, the capability or the boundless reserves of energy,
| love and patience I took for granted again.
|
| Which is all to say, I hear you.
| throwcatowayne wrote:
| Jeez, this resonates with me so much. In 2019 I was
| constantly on the upswing. But in 2020, it's been an
| intensely downward spiral since. I was under so much stress
| from a 60hr/wk job, isolated during covid with a partner who
| turned physically abusive and having constant mental
| breakdowns, on top of trying to endure it all for a once in a
| lifetime housing opportunity, and then both of my parents
| ended up hospitalized in the ER from covid... I remember
| feeling at the time that my mental gears were breaking and
| doing permanent damage. Those 6 months felt like such a short
| time that fundamentally changed me from a cheery person to
| permanently somber.
|
| I quit my job in 2021, physically incapable of continuing and
| wanting to end it all, thinking if I just make it through
| each month it'll eventually get better and it never has. It
| only got worse like the universe kept ratcheting up the
| difficulty. My abusive partner only got more abusive as I
| didn't have a job (but paid all our bills) and couldn't
| muster any energy towards relationship milestones as the
| abuse and depression crippled me. Years of enduring this only
| led to now being abandoned and feeling worse than ever, like
| there is no upside worth the calamitous downsides in life.
| rpjt wrote:
| That sounds really rough. Here if you ever want to talk
| about it. Sorry.
| jajko wrote:
| Sorry to hear that, really sorry.
|
| One thing I dont get with similar stories - you felt things
| are seemingly going to shit in relationship yet no
| reaction, no quitting but maybe even double down? Abusive
| people will be abusive with no easy fix in sight, sucking
| it up for some real estate opportunity is a sure recipe for
| disaster and misery and no money gained will ever
| compensate for that. Thats one of 101 of life, there
| shouldnt be a need to really walk through it to confirm
| this. Kids do complicate this massively but you dont
| mention them.
|
| Same for work it seems, working on edge of what you can
| handle means any little bad thing happening on top can send
| you over and down the spiral of breakdown.
|
| I dont want to bash anybody and its more for others who
| will one day experience similar things - listen to your
| body, its telling you tons of things, and not for just fun.
| Its your best buddy so dont neglect it, there is no
| replacement and it really gets weaker with age, sooner than
| you would like.
|
| I see a lot of high performers ending up similarly - very
| narrow focus on one brilliance ie work, but deep neglect of
| the rest. Never a nice story at the end. Nobody will be
| happy when dying from how much they worked or which
| investments worked out. If one really has to, set clear
| short term goals for when to stop it and have a bit of
| discipline (ie dont get used to better lifestyle that more
| money brings requiring you to continue).
| raziel2p wrote:
| You will hear success stories of those who got out and
| made themselves better. You won't hear the numerous
| stories of those who broke up, realized they're
| hyperdependent on a romantic relationship and don't have
| the strength to do without - or those who break up but
| end up with another abusive partner.
|
| I doubt there is good statistics or research on this, but
| anecdotally, it doesn't seem uncommon.
|
| You also mention "neglect of rest", and in relationships
| you might also say neglect of the self - but often it's
| not explicit neglect, instead it's not even being used to
| or knowing how to recognize or fulfil those needs. As an
| example, after my tinnitus got worse, rest is simply so
| hard to achieve that it doesn't matter if I make it my
| top priority. People saying I need to rest more obviously
| annoys me, and claiming I'm neglecting rest would be
| borderline disrespectful.
|
| Not comparing tinnitus and workaholism, just making a
| general statement about the use of "neglect" here.
| throwcatowayne wrote:
| > you felt things are seemingly going to shit in
| relationship yet no reaction, no quitting but maybe even
| double down? Abusive people will be abusive with no easy
| fix in sight
|
| I loved them so much that constantly fighting and being
| abused was still better than their absence now. I
| believed we would both turn things around, but it only
| got worse every few months. Being in this situation felt
| like a 90/100 misery scale, that I couldn't bear, and
| leaving would be asking me to volunteer for 95/100
|
| > Same for work it seems, working on edge of what you can
| handle means any little bad thing happening on top can
| send you over and down the spiral of breakdown.
|
| Also thought it would be temporary and not do permanent
| damage. In the midst of crisis, I'm thinking "just get
| through this month, it will get better" and then before
| you know it years have went by and all those months
| accumulated their toll
| roughly wrote:
| Every single person who winds up in that situation has
| said or thought exactly that about someone else. There's
| a reason all this advice is a cliche, and there's a
| reason we have to keep giving it, and just consider
| yourself lucky that you still don't understand why that
| is. It's harder to be human than it seems.
| InDubioProRubio wrote:
| Sometimes, you just have to walk out on it all. Pack a go-
| back, open the door and go. You are not the domain of some
| vampire of suck to park their life in. You can just leave
| them and start over. Relationships should not a trap door
| function.
| dwaltrip wrote:
| I've had some rough years recently as well.
|
| I'm slowly healing and learning how to live a new life. A
| life that I like. But it's been really fucking hard. This
| wasn't in the manual.
|
| I hear you both (and anyone lurking :). Much love to you all.
| Andrex wrote:
| Shit is this everybody?
|
| I feel like I'm constantly mourning who I used to be, like it
| was a different person entirely and there's no getting that
| level of empathy or patience back again.
| cyberpunk wrote:
| I'm still working on it, not as extreme as some of these
| cases here it feels quite embarrassing to admit how much I
| mourn for my old life (changed country, became a father,
| zero social circle etc).
|
| Zen practice and fitness have made an astronomically large
| improvement for me, but I guess everyone has to find that
| which helps them accept their current situation.
| plumefar wrote:
| I had the same reaction.
|
| I'm half the person I used to used to be, after a painful
| burnout. And it's not even close as painful as what the OP
| experienced.
|
| So many of my friends went through some very hard time that
| I stopped counting.
|
| So yes, is this everybody?
| t0lo wrote:
| I think economic factors and the health of society at large
| are one of the largest parts of this. I'm young and didn't
| get to grow up in an innocent time, and anyone older than
| me seems worse off. The only way I think I can make things
| work is to make drastic life choices like relocation, and
| live pretty alternative lifestyles like off grid for
| economic security.
|
| I'm always wondering where the interesting people went, but
| maybe they became just like everyone else.
| rixed wrote:
| I believe you are right about the larger factors shaping
| the individual experience.
|
| And since you mention that you are young, just to let you
| know: when "celebrating" the latest new years eve, all
| guests present (40 to 50yo) agreed that the main source
| of hope for the near future was the early disillusionment
| of younger generations. More power to you! :)
| AbstractH24 wrote:
| Woof
|
| While I know this thread is self-selecting, it's amazing
| how many folks share similar stories of how they feel
| burnt out in life since 2020.
|
| I fear we've yet to hit rock bottom and more societal
| strife is impending, both in America and elsewhere. But
| like you, I agree there is some hope that those just
| starting out will rebuild something better from the ashes
| of it when it's all over.
|
| As a 35-year old though I worry I'll be too old to truly
| reap the benefits. Although elder millennials, whose
| formative adult years were defined by the Great Recession
| and Gen Z, who had them defined by COVID, might have it
| even worse.
| jongjong wrote:
| Sometimes my grandmother, when she was alive, would
| sometimes say things that stuck in my memory. One of the
| things she said was that the only thing which really
| improved since she was young was medicine. She said that
| while a lot of technologies improved in a scientific
| sense, it wasn't a net positive because some of the
| hurdles which technology helped to remove were part of
| what made life enjoyable, amusing and meaningful.
|
| It think the term "good old days" is not some delusion of
| the aging mind as the media keeps trying to convince us.
| As I've watched things getting worse during my own life,
| I've been getting increasingly confident that things
| really were better in those old days. I mean, even the
| kinds of people who existed; they were simpler people,
| happier people. They lived lives of mystery and
| serendipity.
| detourdog wrote:
| I'm in the same boat alienated by a 30+ year partner that
| won't even discuss the issues.
|
| After 9 months what I have realized is that my 30+ year
| partner was not a good fit for me. The mental space cleared
| by not worrying about my ex-partner's contentless has
| feared up most of my brain power.
|
| What I realize now is that my partner was wasting many of
| my brain cycles that are now freed up. I actually have
| fallen back into a brain space that feels like my early
| college graduate brain. The brain I had before I took
| responsibility for my partner's happiness.
| biofox wrote:
| I just want to add my voice to say that my life completely
| disintegrated a few years ago. I lost almost everything,
| including my partner of over a decade, and reached a point
| where I didn't even have the motivation to wash or feed
| myself... because, what was the point? I was expending energy
| just to continue a pointless, joyless, struggle.
|
| Battered husk is the best description I can think of for how
| I felt.
|
| It took a while, but I was extremely lucky to find the right
| combination of therapy, SSRIs, and life changes to drag
| myself out of the hole. I now have a stable job doing
| something that sparks my interests and makes a meaningful
| contribution, and my love of life has returned. I still have
| the occasional day where it feels like I start to backslide,
| but they are getting rarer.
|
| I want to reassure anyone who feels tired, burnt-out, and
| hopeless, that things can and do get better.
| stef25 wrote:
| Similar here. Covid happened, lost my relationship of 15
| years, had a total mental breakdown, lost my job, lost 20Kg,
| substance abuse, spent all my savings, struggle to pay bills.
| Lost my dad 2 months ago. Unemployed for a year now. I'll
| never be able to get back to where I was professionally. Feel
| dumb, confused and my memory sucks. Three shitty ass years.
| Medicated.
|
| Slowly starting to see some light. My two young kids get me
| through this, they are with me every other week and give
| purpose to my life, they are best thing ever.
|
| I hear you too. Don't be scared to ask for professional help.
| Meds can make a difference.
|
| Seeing people's testimonials made me feel better so I thought
| I'd post mine.
| yard2010 wrote:
| I think it's obvious. Everyone should treat anyone with empathy
| respect patience understanding and love. Most of all love.
|
| That level of understanding between you and her should be
| universally shared between everything that is living. This way,
| support can always be found.
|
| I wish you and your family all the best. The same goes for
| Bess, as I told her many times. I wish I could give you a hug,
| make you feel protected and capable, as the hero that you are.
| irjustin wrote:
| I know nothing of the difficulties you nor the OP face, but
|
| > It's like I burnt out that part of me. Maybe I'm slowly
| healing? But I don't feel like it.
|
| You've probably heard it, but maybe to help remind, I just
| wanted to say - It's okay to be burnt out and do little or
| nothing. I believe it's the minimum requirement to healing and
| it _will_ take years maybe even a decade. I was cheated on and
| that affected me for 2 years and that's trivial to the road you
| walk.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| I was fortunate enough to be in a place where I could
| "retire" the month after he rang the bell.
|
| I've been doing my own thing for close to two years now,
| trying to heal.
|
| Maybe I will someday. Until then, I somehow manage to keep up
| with his (still elevated) needs and try to be a good husband
| and father to my other child.
| scrollop wrote:
| re your son, have you listened to
|
| https://thetelepathytapes.com/
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| The sheer intensity of being in constant survival mode for
| someone you love, especially in such high-stakes moments,
| doesn't just fade once the crisis is over. It leaves something
| behind, or maybe takes something away. I don't know if healing
| looks like "going back to who we were" or if it's more about
| figuring out who we are now, with everything we've carried
| bitexploder wrote:
| It is also important to realize that the past does not exist,
| not really. You get to decide, every day, who you are. It is
| the simplest and hardest thing.
| wwilim wrote:
| I like to explain this state to people by saying that my
| circuit breakers popped.
| jwx48 wrote:
| Good one. I'm going to add that to my list of metaphors and
| analogies. Some people just don't understand the experience,
| and this seems helpful.
| throwaway356356 wrote:
| Throwaway: when my daughter was 4, she took a bath. My wife was
| in the living room doing laundry, literally 5 steps away. At
| that point, my daughter had just finished swimming class 3
| months before. I was at work. When she called "mum!", my wife
| said: "Coming" and folded one final shirt. When she then
| entered the bathroom, my daughter floated in the tub, face
| down. No breathing, no sign of life anymore. My wife revived
| here on the floor of our living room while calling 911 and
| crying for help.
|
| She had a simple fever cramp (her second) in the tub and nearly
| drowned because of it.
|
| This was roughly a year ago. I remember walking out of the
| building at work in trance, looking for a cab, after I got the
| call, thinking my daughter was dead. She was back to normal
| (apart from the nasty infection that lead to the fever cramp)
| on the next day. Buy my wife and I have never been the same
| since. I entered the apartment 2 days later, and the tub was
| still filled with water and some of my daughters hair, and
| there was blood on the living room floor because the medics
| gave her sedatives and she kicked against the syringe. While
| cleaning my daughter's blood from the floor, I got the distinct
| feeling that she really died and that I was just in a very long
| dream in which she survived, and that I would wake up very soon
| to a world of sorrow. That feeling has never left me. It may
| explain why most things now feel completely irrelevant to me,
| including work.
|
| We quickly bought a house 6 months later and left the
| apartment. I now realize that this was mostly motivated by the
| fact that we couldn't stand the look of the bathtub anymore. It
| was also because we simply weren't afraid anymore of the debt,
| of the additional work, of moving. Fear is something that only
| remains a numb feeling after such an experience.
|
| She is 5 now. The worst part is that she fully remembers. A few
| weeks ago, she freely and cheerfully explained in daycare that
| she once was bathing and then cried "mum" and then "fell asleep
| under water". At dinner a few months ago, she also explained
| that to us and then laughed and mentioned that "mum must've
| thought I am a mermaid" and happily continued eating. It
| crushes me just thinking of it.
|
| If my wife had folded 2 or 3 shirts before entering the
| bathroom, my daughter would be dead now. If my daughter hadn't
| yelled "mum!" the second the fever cramp started, of if she
| would've yelled it under water, she would also be dead now. In
| this probabilistic decision tree, the leaf where my daughter
| survives has a probability that is negligibly small. To my very
| great surprise, I have found that this inevitably leads to
| religion. I have never been religious before, but I have indeed
| found great relief in prayer and sitting around in empty
| churches.
|
| Life to us is now nothing but walking on a thin crust of ice,
| which spans over an infinite hell of fire, horror and torture.
| At any time, without warning, the ice may break.
| t43562 wrote:
| Your daughter has taken it all better than you. We're all a
| moment away from death - on the road all it would take would
| be one yank on the steering wheel at the wrong time - even by
| some other driver.
| Galaxeblaffer wrote:
| I really hope you guys are getting propper help, this state
| of being must be horrible, especially since nothing happened
| in the end. Nothing happened because your wife after all made
| sure to not be too far away and was alert enough to hear her
| call. We're all 2 minutes away from death should we somehow
| stop breathing, best we can do is to minimize risk.
|
| Me and my wife had a horrible experience ourselves where our
| 2 year old daughters best friend(also 2 years old) drowned in
| their family swimming pool after figuring out how to open the
| door herself. I know this wasn't nearly as close to heart as
| the other stories in this post, but receiving that text on a
| Saturday evening was super tough and me and my partner was
| crushed for months after it happened. It's now been 10 months
| and we rarely think about it anymore although we did end up
| in a house WITHOUT a swimming pool, so in a way it's still
| with us.
| bitexploder wrote:
| You have had a fundamental realization about the human
| condition in a very traumatic way. This is a lot to deal with
| all at once.
| c-cube wrote:
| Thank you for sharing. What a terrifying experience. I hope
| you get some help to deal with the trauma.
| CobaltFire wrote:
| Your description of being in a trance after you found out is
| eerily similar to how I felt when I got the message that I
| needed to get to the hospital and start signing paperwork
| because my son had cancer.
|
| My life has a stark demarcation of before and after that, and
| sometimes it feels like nothing is quite real since.
| throwaway356356 wrote:
| Strangely, I feel that my wife was able to come to terms
| with this demarcation much more quickly than I, although
| she was obviously much more traumatized than me in the time
| immediately after the event. (I quickly talked to her on
| the phone when she was in the ambulance, she was mostly
| incoherent and it was impossible to even get the
| information out of her whether our daughter was dead). I
| think this is mainly because it was entirely and only _her_
| who saved her life. She took control of the entire
| situation just seconds after it collapsed on her, and
| successfully turned it around completely by herself. I, on
| the other hand, was forced to be completely passive for
| nearly 2 hours, alone, with incomplete information, and
| with periods in which I thought I had lost my daughter. It
| was me who had a breakdown in the night after the event, in
| a dark hospital room, and it was again my wife who handled
| that situation.
| throwaway155381 wrote:
| This terrifies me. My mom died when of cancer I was 11, and I
| am much more anxious about things happening to my kids than
| my wife is.
|
| One day my wife said she was going to give our 4 year old
| daughter a bath, then I find my daughter by herself in the
| bath and my wife all the way across the house in the bedroom.
| I asked "Why aren't you watching her?" The reply, "She's
| fine. She knows how to swim and the water isn't even that
| deep."
|
| I work remotely in the upstairs bedroom and will occasionally
| come down for water. Half the time I find my one year old
| eating alone in his high chair in the kitchen, with my wife
| doing something in the bedroom. "Where are you? What if he
| chokes?" "You don't trust me. He's fine. I can hear him from
| the bedroom."
|
| My wife will get in road rage incidents. People flip her off
| and yell threats at her as she slingshots through traffic
| with our little kids in the back seat. "You're going to crash
| driving like that." "Stop telling me how to drive." Someone
| pretended to pull a gun out on her after she swore at them.
| "You're going to get shot." "No I'm not. I can tell if any of
| those people would have a gun."
|
| She also has severe ADHD. Our daughter got under the sink
| when she was two and ate half a dishwasher detergent pod
| before my wife noticed and called poison control. Another day
| when my daughter was two my wife forgot to shut the gate at
| the bottom of the stairs when she came upstairs to talk to me
| during the workday. Suddenly I hear a series of thuds and
| cries. Our little girl had fallen down the flight of stairs
| after trying to follow my wife without her noticing. Same
| thing happened to my 1 year old son under the watch of my
| wife's mother.
|
| I'm so scared that one day I'm going to get a call about
| something horrible that has happened to my kids either
| because of my wife's inattention or anger issues.
| sfjailbird wrote:
| Those don't sound like unreasonable concerns at all. Wish
| you the best.
|
| There's something I wanted to say reading this whole
| thread. I just hope it does not come off as lecturing or
| preaching. It's this: Don't feel bad about things that
| there is no way for you to change. Just do your very best
| about the things you can. Nobody can ask more of anyone.
| citruscomputing wrote:
| > I got the distinct feeling that she really died and that I
| was just in a very long dream in which she survived, and that
| I would wake up very soon to a world of sorrow.
|
| This is how I've felt every time a friend has tried and
| failed to commit suicide. I'm so sorry.
| bitexploder wrote:
| It's called depression and when it happens because of a
| situation in your life that you have limited control over it
| can be very difficult to recover. Get professional help if you
| haven't. It is hard. Been there.
| soulofmischief wrote:
| What eventually pulled you out of it? Was it a long journey,
| or one or more specific events?
| bitexploder wrote:
| Time. Focused effort. For me my happiness set point is
| decent. It takes work to get out of the hole though. No one
| thing. Exercise. Diet. Forcing myself to do things I know I
| enjoy. It can feel hollow, but it comes back. Lots of
| meditation, stoicism, cognitive behavioral therapy.
| Recognize the negative thought pattern loops early,
| combatting them, reminding yourself what they are.
| YinglingHeavy wrote:
| The best is yet to come.
|
| My son is non verbal, non mobile.
|
| We live the life of the Servant. We used to define ourselves by
| our profession, now we define ourselves as "special needs
| parent". This is a step closer to actually being more human.
| How trivial our lives were before, how we wasted so many hours
| on shit that didn't matter!
| trentnix wrote:
| God bless you and your family. Thank you for sharing your
| experience and wisdom.
| jcims wrote:
| My wife died of ovarian cancer in February of 2020, right as
| covid started.
|
| It felt like I was running on adrenaline and cortisol for two
| years. Scrambling to find anything to help, steadily applying
| the steel tip of my proverbial boot to the backside of the
| healthcare industry, doing home IVs, changing ostomy bags,
| making sure meds were straight, trying to gently urge her to
| eat something at all, deep diving into the pits and snares of
| clinical trials, looking at adjunct therapies and arguing with
| doctors about our right to do those, growing to an ambient,
| everpresent rage over time.
|
| When she passed, it all went silent, and then the world shut
| down.
|
| I still feel like my brain has changed. It's difficult to put
| my finger on how.
|
| In retrospect a lot of the time I spent trying to find options
| and understand the disease and its treatment would have been
| much better spent tending to the emotional needs of my family.
| I should have accepted much earlier that it was over and just
| prepared for that inevitability rather than clawing and
| scratching for options right until the end. I just didn't know
| how to do it.
| verelo wrote:
| I'm so sorry for your loss. Something did change, and i think
| it's good you feel that. Someone I used to work with, their
| wife was a professor at Rochester university and her research
| was around happiness. She would tell me that our baseline
| happiness in life is virtually constant (on large timescales,
| we all have good/bad days etc), there's not much we can do to
| alter it in adulthood to shift it. There were a few
| exceptions, loss of a child, partner or critical illness.
|
| I'm not sure what comes next but really hope that energy and
| happiness finds its way back to you with time.
| dingnuts wrote:
| >Someone I used to work with, their wife was a professor at
| Rochester university and her research was around happiness.
| She would tell me that our baseline happiness in life is
| virtually constant (on large timescales, we all have
| good/bad days etc), there's not much we can do to alter it
| in adulthood to shift it.
|
| If you're someone who struggles with chronic depression
| this statement is extremely demoralizing. But it's also
| hearsay -- you're a stranger on the internet, so you want
| me to believe based on a stranger's colleague's wife's
| alleged research, that depression cannot be effectively
| treated?
|
| If you want to share that researcher's work, provide a
| link. Keep your rumors, suppositions, and lay-person's
| doomer psychology to yourself, unless you are planning to
| make a post with direct citations that is in effect nothing
| like the comment you did leave.
|
| People's lives depend on this. You can't just post "if you
| have depression you'll never be able to change it"
| cavalierly as though you are an expert and your post has no
| consequences.
|
| Someone is going to read your supposition, your rumor,
| believe it, and despair.
| msbit415 wrote:
| Fully agree. And even if there was a legitimate study, it
| wouldn't be dispositive. I had horrible anxiety and
| depression for most of my adult life. I believed I would
| never be a happy person, and that I would always be
| tormented by my mental illness.
|
| I finally found treatment that worked for me in the
| pandemic (Ketamine assisted psychotherapy), and it was
| life changing. It has been 2.5 years since I stopped
| treatment and I'm 10x happier. I wake up every day happy
| and curious about what the day will bring.
| m90 wrote:
| This is a well known concept called the "Hedonic
| Treadmill", which exists since the 70ies, not "doomer
| psychology". It also does not say treating depression is
| not possible. Depression is a disease.
| fragmede wrote:
| Self-Determination Theory: Basic Psychological Needs in
| Motivation, Development, and Wellness
|
| By
|
| Richard M. Ryan, Edward L. Deci
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30652098-self-
| determinat...
| bsder wrote:
| > I should have accepted much earlier that it was over and
| just prepared for that inevitability rather than clawing and
| scratching for options right until the end. I just didn't
| know how to do it.
|
| And yet with the other choice you might have regretted "not
| having done everything you could have". That is the curse of
| those with the ability to actually do something. In many
| ways, those who do not understand and simply place their
| faith in doctors are less burdened.
|
| You did what you thought best at the time; that is all you
| could have done. Nothing you did or did not do was a mistake.
|
| There are no "right" answers when facing mortality. My
| sympathies for what you went through, and I hope you are
| doing better.
| nick__m wrote:
| >> In many ways, those who do not understand and simply
| place their faith in doctors are less burdened.
|
| This is so true.
|
| I wish I could write a better response but my wife has her
| periodic pet-scan in 1hr. Those scan always leave me
| paralyzed with fear of recurrence of the metastatic breast
| cancer she has. it's probably off topic so sorry internet
| strangers but writing it brings a little relief.
|
| All my sympathy to those who lost someone!
| CobaltFire wrote:
| My son's regular survivorship checkups completely destroy
| me with anxiety.
|
| I sympathize deeply.
| schnebbau wrote:
| > I should have accepted much earlier that it was over and
| just prepared for that inevitability rather than clawing and
| scratching for options right until the end.
|
| No way. If you had done that you would have felt even worse
| for not trying everything you possibly could.
| se4u wrote:
| +1 to this, my mom died because of COVID in India 1 months
| after she left US after visiting me, and I still feel
| guilty that I didnt insist on getting her the vaccine
| before she left for India, and then at the time of her
| death India was locked down so no flights and I wasn't even
| next to her. It's been 4 years but every so often I think
| about this. I blame myself less now after some therapy, but
| If you didn't try all that you could you'd probably feel
| guilty like me.
| wvlia5 wrote:
| I think it has to do with low self-esteem.
|
| You used to be a superhero. And you still are. Remember who you
| are.
|
| You were drowned in frustration. But now you acknowledge the
| reality of the present situation, it's time to execute the new
| accomplishments that will prove your greatness.
| froh wrote:
| thank you for sharing. what you describe is akin to what other
| survivors of utter helplessness describe. usually we think of
| "trauma" as surviving naked angst, fear for our life or health,
| uncontrollable horrific events. and that's also in classic
| medical definitions. but we're slowly learning how many
| existential crises of utter helplessness, also proxy-
| helplessness for a dear loved one, can put our brains into a
| out-of-place state. If that resonates somehow, the good news is
| that there are exercises, guided approaches to help the brain
| reconfigure back into the original state of empowerment and
| optimism. "Somatic experiencing" is one of them, emdr another
| one (in the hands of an experienced and trained trauma
| certified clinician), and there are some more. long story
| short: there are paths forward.
|
| I apologize if I overshared, hth.
| Zebfross wrote:
| Having a child is hard, so having a child by yourself must be
| harder. All I know is that our hearts don't fill up and can
| always fit more love.
| dottjt wrote:
| While not quite the same, my partner was diagnosed with stage 4
| cancer a few months ago, a few days after my daughter's 1st
| birthday.
|
| I think one thing I worry about is my daughter possibly not
| growing up with a mother. Like how that will affect her.
|
| It's been traumatic for myself personally, but it hasn't been
| ...I'm still highly functional and I'm still continuing to live
| life to the fullest.
| zeagle wrote:
| I am really sorry to hear you are going through this and hope
| you have family and friends supporting you guys. <3
| eckesicle wrote:
| My wife died suddenly when my son was two years old. He's
| almost seven now.
|
| So far, he's completely fine without her. He claims he has
| memories of her, but I think he just remembers photos and
| videos that we've watched together. I don't think he knows what
| he's missing.
| dottjt wrote:
| Do you think it's important for your child to have a
| relationship his mother, if that makes any sense at all? Like
| do you celebrate her birthday etc.
|
| How do you retain that connection, or do you just leave it in
| the past?
| eckesicle wrote:
| To your first question, I don't know. We do celebrate her
| birthday, light a candle whenever we walk past a church /
| go into a temple etc. If I'm brutally honest I think it's
| more for my own sake than his.
|
| To retain the connection, we look at photos together every
| week and I tell him stories about her, and their
| relationship.
|
| I spoke to him just now, and he says that he misses her but
| is unable to articulate how. Perhaps these ceremonies will
| grow more important over time, and as he grows older
| perhaps he will appreciate that we took the time to
| celebrate her.
|
| I have an adult friend, who lost his mother at a young age
| too. He tells me that he only really started to miss her
| once he got older, around 12, and as an adult. He doesn't
| remember who she was or why, but he misses the idea of
| having had family dinners at home every day etc. The
| dynamic in a household is very different when there is one
| adult and one child at home, versus two adults to a child.
| dottjt wrote:
| Did you decide to date again? Do you think having a
| mother figure for your child is important for them?
| eckesicle wrote:
| Yes, but not for the reason that I want a mother figure
| in the house. Only recently, have I been able to date
| without comparing any new prospective partners to my late
| wife. I have yet to meet the right person.
|
| It's also a very big ask of a new partner for them to
| step in and fulfil the role of mother to your child.
| dottjt wrote:
| Fair enough. I feel it's not uncommon for people with
| children to remarry, but yeah I imagine it has it's own
| challenges.
|
| I feel like for me it would be a) Wanting someone I have
| a deep connection with and b) Someone who's interested in
| children. I feel that keeps it simple.
|
| But yeah, I just think about how much I wouldn't be able
| to provide my daughter as a male, given I know so little
| about hair, make up etc. I mean, I'd obviously learn it
| all, but it would be easier to have someone who was
| already on that page.
| tasuki wrote:
| > I think one thing I worry about is my daughter possibly not
| growing up with a mother. Like how that will affect her.
|
| Don't worry about that! My daughter lost her mother when she
| was 1.5 years old. It's important to have a sensible female
| role model. A grandma or an aunt will do just fine.
|
| Please do take good care of yourself!
| dottjt wrote:
| That's part of the issue, there is no one like that unless if
| I were to remarry.
| tasuki wrote:
| Tough, then. Hang in there!
|
| When my partner died, I read up a bit about the problems
| children face when being raised by a single father. By far
| the biggest problem was the father's alcoholism. So I
| decided not to become an alcoholic (a prospect which
| actually looked rather enticing at a certain point in
| time). Also I try to be gentle with myself: it's ok to mess
| up.
|
| Again, hang in there and best of luck to you and your
| family!
| j_bum wrote:
| So expressively and beautifully written.
| dcchambers wrote:
| Beautifully written but...heartbreaking. Hard to get through this
| one.
|
| In a few years I probably won't be able to. I'm a married father
| of two, and every year stories like this hit me harder.
| tw19disaster wrote:
| Throwaway account. I'm fairly open about this, but don't really
| want it associated for all time with me.
|
| About a year after my marriage split up I went to the marriage of
| someone close to me. During the ceremony I had severe chest pains
| and was pretty sure I was having a heart attack. I didn't want to
| disturb the ceremony (they were exchanging rings!) so I figured
| I'd wait 5 minutes then get up and call an ambulance.
|
| The pain went away, and I didn't do anything about it for a
| while. Later I had a panic attack when at a new GF's place and
| had to leave.
|
| Eventually I went to a therapist, and they pointed out these are
| symptoms of PTSD and trauma.
|
| Anyway, I'm fine now. But it wasn't until I had the physical
| symptoms that I believed the impact of these things wasn't just
| something I could ignore.
| Magi604 wrote:
| Possibly takotsubo, "Broken Heart Syndrome"?
|
| https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/takotsubo-cardio...
|
| Being at a wedding might trigger a strong physical reaction
| from your breakup.
| a-french-anon wrote:
| Wizard here, that's totally normal. Just life giving you a
| little nudge to remind you you're not dead! The only way to
| deal with it is to grit your teeth and clench your butt.
|
| Once you can endure that pain while remaining calm enough to
| hear Bateman narrate _my pain is constant and sharp..._ in your
| mind, you 'll be "alright".
| j3s wrote:
| we are millions of streams that never stop flowing -- but we love
| to pretend that there's consistency to it. we like to imagine
| ourselves as a continuous person.
|
| but we're not. we change, moment to moment, forever, endlessly --
| it doesn't stop, ever. not when we go to sleep. not when we go
| through a traumatic event. not when we die.
|
| a stark reminder of our fragility. i hope the author can find
| peace.
| darknavi wrote:
| I have yet to have a reason to use this, but I keep it in my
| pocket until do.
|
| > Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see
| that you cannot bear it anymore, draw back a little and have a
| cup of tea. > > -- Elder Sophrony of Essex
|
| It's a quote from the end of Lars Doucet's post, Losing my son.
|
| Stay strong, and if not strong, then just stay.
|
| https://www.fortressofdoors.com/i-lost-my-son/
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| Sometimes, strength isn't about fighting through... it's just
| about making it to the next moment, the next breath, the next
| cup of tea.
| sytelus wrote:
| Amazing writing. When you become parent, the person you were at
| that point goes away. Growing as parent is part of letting that
| person go.
| lux wrote:
| Sisyphean is the word I've come back to a lot myself since my
| wife took her life on November 6, 2024. Feeling like I'm now
| trying to live for both of us, grasping at ways of honouring her
| memory despite the incredible love we had being unable to "save"
| her, and somehow not at all myself anymore, but having to keep
| moving forward feels hopeless beyond belief.
|
| I lost my dad suddenly just two months prior, and my grandma
| shortly before that, but the loss of your partner (and in this
| manner after she refused help and I watched helplessly as she
| spiralled in her last year) eclipses any grief or pain I had
| experienced before or could have even imagined.
|
| But I wanted to show a little appreciation for the OP and others
| on here sharing their devastating losses. Knowing love inevitably
| turns into grief but that that is a more universal experience
| makes me feel a little less alone. Small blessings but at points
| like these, we take whatever morsels we can get.
| MarkMarine wrote:
| Brother, I can't say anything that will make it better, but all
| I can offer is what gets me through grief that I've been living
| with for 20 years: They wouldn't want me to carry it like this.
| They always wanted the best for me, and walking around like a
| husk, missing them isn't it.
|
| I hope it gets better for you. It has for me.
| patcon wrote:
| Ah I'm crying. Thank you both, for your honesty. These little
| bits of stories feel like reserves I hope I never need so
| badly, but I likely will, and so I'm grateful.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| It is interesting what might become fuel one day.
|
| I was 14 when, within months: my mom's dad died, my dad
| died, my mom was diagnosed with the melanoma that took her
| 7 years later, a fire took the longtime family home. And
| she developed trigeminal neuralgia - a 9-10 for pain and
| she had it on both sides of her face. All of this impacted
| her. And us. For her part, she carried on with work and
| managing a family.
|
| Fast forward. Well into my own marriage, my wife spiraled
| into mental health issues that subjected the kids and I to
| decades of sabotage, abuse and ceaseless, exhausting
| catastrophes.
|
| I too learned that when I am hallowed out, I can continue
| on. When I am beyond my own help, someone else might not be
| and there might be something I _can_ do. At this point,
| helping others is pure self preservation.
| lux wrote:
| Thank you. It's definitely the living definition of hell, a
| constant panic attack for a past you can't change, but it's
| also only been 3 months and I'm discovering resilience and
| supports I'm so thankful for.
|
| I also decided to go visit one of our favourite places
| (Thailand) to get away for a bit, meet up with a friend, do
| some writing, and make some new memories here. It's been
| really hard at points but definitely healing too.
| darkwater wrote:
| John, I'm a perfect stranger but I send you a big hug and lot
| of love. I can only thinly scratch the surface of what you went
| through with my mind, and it's already the scariest thought I
| could possibly have in my life.
| lux wrote:
| Thank you
| DFHippie wrote:
| I sympathize. I won't offer platitudes. I find those don't
| lessen grief.
|
| My son took his own life on February 1st, 2023. I feel like
| someone took a huge melon baller and scooped out the middle of
| my chest. My wife and I had been trying to get him back on his
| feet for two years at that point. He died quietly about 10 feet
| from me. The family cat kept trying to get me to open his
| bedroom door. I kept trying to respect his privacy. I finally
| took her hint.
|
| He was the best person I knew. I imagined vicariously living a
| much better life through him. I still feel like a fragment of
| my former self. He was a sometime contributor here, by the way,
| under jwmhjwmh.
|
| Anyway, I give my love to everyone here sharing stories of
| their losses. I find sharing memories of these loved ones is
| more comforting than platitudes, and certainly more healing
| than pretending nothing happened.
| amonon wrote:
| >I sympathize. I won't offer platitudes. I find those don't
| lessen grief.
|
| The most meaningful thing someone ever said to me, after my
| daughter was stillborn full term, was: "There is nothing to
| say."
| mattmaroon wrote:
| You're still in the valley. It does seem Sisyphean and it will
| for ahwile. I went through this in 2021 and it took a few years
| to get to the point where it doesn't feel hopeless.
|
| You won't be the same person after, but in some ways that's
| good. Highly recommend grief counseling. Feel free to reach out
| if you need help from someone who has been through it.
| sgt wrote:
| Odd, I have the Substack app (on my phone). When I click on the
| link, I'm sent to the Substack app, which subsequently sends me
| back to the website, which suggests I open the app, then I open
| the app, and I see the Substack app without the article.
| l5870uoo9y wrote:
| "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy" by
| William Irvine has an entire chapter dedicated to letting go of
| past trauma and moving forward. The Stoic advice was "fatalism".
| The Stoics' advice was "fatalism" in relation to the events that
| fate deals us. This is in stark contrast to the psychologizing
| approach of modernity where everything must be turned around and
| the answer must be found, preferably within the individual.
|
| Here is an excerpt where author William Irvine highlights Marcus
| Aurelius' thoughts on fate and grief:
|
| > Marcus also advocates taking a fatalistic attitude toward life.
| To do otherwise is to rebel against nature, and such rebellions
| are counterproductive, if what we seek is a good life. In
| particular, if we reject the decrees of fate, Marcus says, we are
| likely to experience tranquility-disrupting grief, anger, or
| fear. To avoid this, we must learn to adapt ourselves to the
| environment into which fate has placed us and do our best to love
| the people with whom fate has surrounded us. We must learn to
| welcome whatever falls to our lot and persuade ourselves that
| whatever happens to us is for the best. Indeed, according to
| Marcus, a good man will welcome "every experience the looms of
| fate may weave for him.
|
| Today, when I experience regrets and sadness that I can't
| control, I think; it couldn't have happened any other way.
| CTDOCodebases wrote:
| > Today, when I experience regrets and sadness that I can't
| control, I think; it couldn't have happened any other way.
|
| I think of things in a similar way. All possibilities collapse
| into the only outcome that was ever truly inevitable. Reality
| is like the centre of a ven diagram with an infinite amount of
| circles. No "would of" no "should of' or "could of". Just "is".
| Only once we accept something can we move past it. Some people
| don't like this idea but I think that they just don't
| understand or want to acknowledge how much power the current
| moment holds.
|
| There is a lot more suffering to be had when we try to escape
| our current suffering. A good example of this is drug addicts.
| On a long enough time line all forms of escapism eventually
| turn into prisons.
|
| If you are reading this and want to disagree or explore these
| ideas I suggest the following. Sleep 2-4hrs one night then take
| a cold shower in the morning. As you find your mind and body
| trying to move away from the discomfort accept your
| circumstance. Stand still with the water passing over your face
| and focus on the freshness and crispness of the icy cold water.
| willy158 wrote:
| fk COVID, I lost my mother
| ErigmolCt wrote:
| This is one of the most devastatingly beautiful pieces of writing
| I've ever read.
| SamPatt wrote:
| Agreed. I don't usually cry reading an HN post.
|
| It pulls no punches, and is completely devoid of self pity.
| Relentless, ruthless reality, coming close to detachment even,
| but it's all so personal.
|
| Incredible post.
| satisfice wrote:
| This is beautiful writing.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| When I look in the mirror now, I notice all the places where my
| body reveals what I've been through. And I wonder, in a way that
| I wouldn't if Jake were still alive, how this new body appears to
| others who don't view it through a lens of love.
|
| At 20 I fell hard for a 35yo. We also became close friends and my
| pursuit of her was almost separate and apart. After a very long
| time I conceded; I met other people and eventually started a
| family with one of them.
|
| 35 years down the road I am single again and thought of that girl
| who didn't happen. I did a little digging and found a recent
| selfie she'd taken. She's in her 70s and I still see the same
| artist and dancer I fell for a lifetime ago. That she stayed with
| me that way - it makes me feel hopeful about what people can be
| to each other.
| actionfromafar wrote:
| That's beautiful, thank you.
| wvh wrote:
| Beautiful in that painfully human way, I agree.
| kragen wrote:
| Give her a call. Your lifetime isn't over yet! She may be open
| to your love now, and likely would at least want to revive your
| friendship.
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| Thank you for this hopeful suggestion. I think a relationship
| isn't in the cards, atm. In her case, I live 1k miles away
| from her life. More generally, me+5sons live in tight
| quarters with all incomes needed to make basic bills.
|
| What I left out of my OP is I was competing with her longtime
| boyfriend and my odds never were good (I did come close a few
| times tho). He owned an upscale restaurant, for starters. He
| was also a genuinely good guy. I know they were together a
| long while; I'd be happy if they still were.
|
| Regardless, I'll be up that way this fall and hopefully we
| can get caught up.
| wwilim wrote:
| Grief and postpartum is a very dangerous combination. I know
| someone who landed in a mental facility for 5 weeks when her baby
| was barely 4 months old. Seek help, consult a psychiatrist, get
| therapy. Don't be afraid of medication, there are antidepressants
| that don't filter into your milk, and the doctor will know which
| ones they can safely give you, just tell them you're
| breastfeeding. You can manage going to therapy with a baby, many
| therapists allow you to bring your child. Don't let other people
| take control when they assume you're weak and failing, you're
| not. Take care.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| You all are writing about the loss of loved ones, and I'm like
|
| > You guys had loved ones?
|
| There's so much societal attention to loss, but any complaint
| about the inability to form meaningful relationships in the first
| place is usually met with enthusiastic "git gud". Nobody cares
| about the slow burnout of knowing that you'll always be on your
| own.
|
| Which makes sense if you think about it. A person going through
| loss must've had the skills to get what they want in the first
| place, which means they might useful to the society, they deserve
| a second chance. A person who cannot get what they want most
| likely is inherently incapable of reaching their goals, which
| means they're not as useful, and not worth crying over. It's like
| all those people paying attention to celebrities and their
| problems, but ignoring the homeless. The former might release
| another beautiful song, the latter will not.
| saagarjha wrote:
| People don't form meaningful relationships with celebrities.
| Relationships are actually largely divorced from what is
| "useful to society".
| anal_reactor wrote:
| > Relationships are actually largely divorced from what is
| "useful to society".
|
| Adorable. Your mom loves you because it's tremendously
| beneficial to the survival of the species and the culture,
| not because of some higher ideals.
| dwaltrip wrote:
| Loss of what of could have been can be just as painful as loss
| of what was. I hear you. Your feelings are valid. Wishing you
| best and sending love.
| lynx97 wrote:
| I lost my father when I was 13. I never had a really good
| relationship to my mother. After 2 years of grieving, she
| directly went into a subtle type of depression. She basically
| soaked me in her negativity until I was finally able to move out.
| We have a very bad relationship these days, mostly because she is
| still unable to fathom how much pain she caused me in the 4 years
| I had to stay with her.
|
| Whatever it is you are fighting with, never forget that you have
| far more subtle influence on your kids ten you might think.
| Letting things slide can have far more devastating conseuqneces
| to your relationships then you might think. If you dont get your
| act together, you might end up as an estranged parent a decade or
| two down the road.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| It's critically important to note that whilst some people have
| loving families and strong relationships, many _don 't_. Along
| with all else, this generally makes dealing with loss both
| harder (fewer support options) _and_ increasingly conflicted
| (grief but also often some measure of relief). Not to mention
| the awkwardness of customary expressions of grief or
| compassion, whether rituals or specific words and phrases.
|
| I'm sorry for what you've gone through but appreciate your
| sharing it.
| tdullien wrote:
| This resonates with me very deeply. In the last few months of my
| 40th year, I exited my 2nd company - somewhat against my wishes
| (although I could've chosen differently). The day that deal
| closed my mother went into coma after complications from a
| routine hip surgery, and died after 9 weeks of intensive care. A
| few months later my dad had a brain hemorrhage leading to
| dementia; and due to a variety of factors I ended up taking care
| of a 4 year old and a 2 year old alone during weekdays; the
| emotional fabric of my marriage fell apart too.
|
| It was a quadruple loss - losing the company I wanted to
| continue, losing my mother (who had provided emotional support),
| my father (who had previously been full of good advice), and then
| realizing that the support system that remained was not
| available.
|
| Obviously this is different from losing a partner and father-of-
| a-child to cancer, but emotionally I recognize my own state ca.
| 2.5 years ago in this article - complete with the realization
| that the person I was before all of this is not around any more.
|
| For quite a number of people the early 40s have some pretty
| brutal transitions in store.
|
| That said, the nadir of the grief and loss is also in the rear-
| view mirror, and a few years later things are definitely looking
| up. We may not be the person we used to be, but there is such a
| thing as wisdom, and I think I have a much more nuanced and
| empathetic world view today, and a deeper appreciation of the
| value of lifetime.
| kamaal wrote:
| >>For quite a number of people the early 40s have some pretty
| brutal transitions in store.
|
| For me it was caring for my dad in the hospital during COVID
| and his surgeries around the time. I had to often wake in the
| nights to drain his catheter. For some reasons, my mom would
| find it disgusting. And for some reason, not only did I not, my
| love for him only increased. We also spent a lot of time
| together which made me almost see him as an entirely a
| different person than the one I had known all life. It also
| increased my respect for him tremendously.
|
| 40s is such a coming of age time for us men. Its almost like
| the dawn of a new age.
|
| My knees do feel like they hurt slight. Like just a little. And
| of course the hair begin to grey. All of a sudden you are in a
| totally different phase of life altogether.
| FlyingSnake wrote:
| I lost my father in the big Covid wave of May '21 and it took
| me a while to get over that intense trauma. That, along with
| the midlife crisis hit harder and I can feel that I'm not the
| same person anymore. I now find myself doing things that I've
| never thought of doing before. Things like regular 10K runs,
| climbing mountains, solo trips etc. maybe it's the sense of
| urgency that we feel after a major event.
|
| Interestingly during that crisis a comment I found on HN
| about a book (Hannibal and me) helped me a lot to overcome
| that phase.
| gbjw wrote:
| "Even in our sleep, pain which cannot forget falls drop by drop
| upon the heart until, in our own despair, against our will,
| comes wisdom through the awful grace of God." - Aeschylus
| Narann wrote:
| > Friends have told me that they're relieved I seem "like myself"
| even after everything that's happened. I don't understand how
| that's possible when I frequently don't feel like I have a self
| to be. Jake and I became so entangled in these last few years
| that it still seems like many of my thoughts belong to both of
| us.
|
| I can only recommend to read << Eloge de l'amour >> from Alain
| Badiou (and Nicolas Truong). It defends love as a conscientious
| and willing alterity of yourself, but a non-controlled alterity,
| an alterity puts in the hands of another.
|
| That's why, I think, people does not help that much someone that
| lost a love saying him/her will be more focused on them-self.
| Because the lost was absolute part of them-self, and not
| something they actually suffer from.
| t43562 wrote:
| When my parents died, starting with my mum that shattered the
| world. My family didn't stay together. I was cut adrift.
|
| Time does heal though. It never stops you loving someone but it
| lets you gradually put something together out of the wreckage.
| The person you loved is no longer in pain, no longer suffering.
| The problem is feeling that nothing can replace the hole blown in
| your world.
|
| Nothing does replace it exactly but you gradually build a
| different structure that makes life bearable. Other people need
| you (especially your child) to create that structure for them and
| when you start to do it you will see the value of overcoming your
| own pain.
| peakwritting wrote:
| > And in the darkest hours, of which there are many, I try to
| remind myself that I didn't know what happiness looked like
| before I had it the first time, either.
|
| I'm sorry to deflate the mood, but holy damn, that is one banger
| of a line. So much said so briefly.
| llsf wrote:
| So many profound lines. The beauty in the tragedy.
| b3lvedere wrote:
| Beautiful words. I am so sorry for all that hardship. I know it
| sucks. There is no right path.
|
| All i can type is that it reminded me of some music and songtext
| that may or may not help give it all a place and time.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpV3fO5Alto
| a3w wrote:
| Should we have a content warning for all the bad stuff happening
| here? Holy shit, I am in tears after two paragraphs.
| wegfawefgawefg wrote:
| not intending to be rude but this probably doesnt belong on
| hacker news. I come here to read about tech.
| SamPatt wrote:
| I couldn't disagree more strongly.
|
| Her husband was a frequent HN user, and their story was known
| here. This is a continuation.
|
| I love seeing the human side of HN. This is an extremely unique
| perspective, a beautifully written but horrific snapshot of a
| woman's life when her husband - a man like many of us - dies
| prematurely while she's pregnant.
|
| It's relevant in ways that another LLM article can't be.
| coldpie wrote:
| I understand why you feel that way. There's a little "Hide"
| button under every story. It makes the stuff you're not
| interested in go away. There's no shame in using it. Story's
| gone, no harm done, move on to stuff you are interested in
| instead.
| layer8 wrote:
| Please see the first paragraph of
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
| MisterBastahrd wrote:
| I can relate. I am a stubborn person, but I also have childhood
| trauma that sank its way deep into me. I had a gigantic fear of
| relaying any negative information to my family because they would
| often turn it back against me regardless of whether I was at
| fault or not. So I just didn't respond, even when things were
| pretty bad.
|
| About a month ago, I checked myself into a local hospital. I had
| severe ascites. My CO2 levels were 70%. My heart ejection
| fraction was 20%. I could barely walk much less breathe. I
| weighed 340 pounds. I had severe edema to the point that not only
| could I not put on socks, but flip flops barely fit on my feet. I
| could sit, tilt backward, and the edema in my back would act as a
| kickstand. Drinking a cup of coffee or eating anything more than
| half a burger would put me into a bout of physical pain that
| would last 2+ hours, and the only way to get past it was to lay
| down.
|
| The hospital staff did paracentesis on me. They extracted 6, 10,
| 17, and 4 liters from me via a tube shoved into my abdomen. They
| put me on an around the clock Lasix drip and put a catheter in
| me. I urinated 2 gallons a day for 2 weeks. I entertained myself
| by watching the tube running from my junk to the catheter
| drainage bag, watching as I would periodically have bloody urine
| because I was passing kidney stones with so much force that they
| didn't have time to hurt due to the sheer amount of fluid coming
| off of me. After those 2 weeks, I weighed 215 pounds. My heart's
| ejection fraction improved to 50%.
|
| Turns out my right lung did not have a connection to my right
| artery. And I have an unknown mass in my right kidney that they
| suspect is cancer. I had basically been operating my entire life
| with half an oxygen supply. As a teen, I had big time CFB
| athletic talent but didn't have the stamina and it was
| frustrating. And now I knew why. My right heart had started to
| weaken. They did ultrasounds and CT scans and angiographs. The
| cardiologist said that my heart had no signs of damage and my
| arteries were completely fine, so at least I had that going for
| me.
|
| So after not having seen a doctor since 1992, I was stuck in a
| hospital for a month getting around the clock medication and
| daily blood work and weekly paracentesis (which will be happening
| forever). All my blood work is normal. I also have AFib, which is
| the main thing they need to treat and might even help to fix some
| of the backflow which causes my abdomen to fill with fluid. My
| blood pressure is normal for the first time since I was 6 years
| old. When I entered the hospital, it was 187/114. Now it's
| 105/80.
|
| So in the course of a month, I went from having no doctor and no
| time in a hospital to a month long hospital stay accompanied with
| short term disability and a prognosis of needing weekly drainings
| forever along with 4 specialists and a primary care physician and
| about 8 prescriptions. I also saw a psychiatrist for the first
| time ever after having struck out multiple times with
| Betterhealth goons who wouldn't listen and kept trying to make me
| meditate.
|
| I am a fundamentally different person than I was when I went in.
| I refuse to be that person ever again. I will prioritize my own
| needs over other people's feelings. I will be active because I
| want to be. I've got a plan to take my life back from the
| depression that hung over it for years. I have 3 or 4 product
| ideas that would make a hospital stay better and make the staff's
| lives easier without dealing with HIPAA. So yes, it sucked, yes,
| it was expensive, but it helped me gain perspective and while I
| wish I wasn't sick, otherwise it was totally worth it.
| maurits wrote:
| This vividly remembers me of "The Year of Magical Thinking" [1]
| It hit hard, and I didn't finish the book.
|
| [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Year_of_Magical_Thinking
| Balgair wrote:
| We had a similar thing happen to us in COIVD. My child was born
| and a few weeks later, my FiL died. We were the primary
| caretakers for both as one came into the world and one went out.
|
| One thing I will suggest is a death doula. Birth doulas are very
| good if you can afford them and worth the money, at least ours
| was. I really wish we'd gotten a death doula too, to help out
| with all the dumb things about dying. The paperwork, the adult
| diapers, the cleaning of a large human, bedsores, the funeral
| homes, etc. It's a lot of dumb little things that add up in your
| head that will make it want to pop.
|
| Anyway, reading this piece was going back to a place and a person
| I was. I get that feeling of living on stress and adrenaline. I
| took up drinking at night to help out, and that wasn't smart, it
| wrecked the little sleep I was getting. I should have gone coffee
| addict or vaping instead. No, honestly, nothing was going to help
| in the end.
|
| I get the alonenese, the total burnout. For about 3 years
| afterwards, it was nothing but mechanical robot me. Not a lot of
| real feelings beside rage, which I barely had the energy for. The
| first year flus didn't help at all either.
|
| It is better, but like some Dr. Who transformation, I'm a new me
| now. I have all the memories, but I'm not the old person. I know
| that sounds like 'Duh, we're all like that dummy', but this time,
| maybe due to the compression and intensity, it feels different.
| Like, you thought your first kiss would change you, and it did,
| but not as much as you though it would. The experience of being a
| new parent and having that kid's grandfather die within a month,
| that changed me a _lot_ more than I thought it would. And I
| really don 't like who it changed me into.
|
| It gets better? Maybe, I don't know yet. I hope so.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| > One thing I will suggest is a death doula.
|
| My in-laws already prepaid for their funeral burial and
| arrangement and my wife's, and his own fathers as well. So when
| it all happened, it as a lot less stress. It was still
| emotional, but everything was handled ahead of time.
|
| It might seem morbid to think about, but if you can preplan
| your funeral arrangements so your loved ones don't have to,
| it's definitely one of the better things you can do. Also
| leaves them free of having to foot the bill.
| notwhereyouare wrote:
| something of note though, if it's with a specific funeral
| home, plan to follow up with them yearly to make sure they
| are still around. Dad found that out the hard way when his
| mom passed. He called up the funeral home and the number was
| disconnected.
|
| He had to scramble NYE to find somebody to take the body and
| then scramble and replan everything because the funeral home
| had been investigated by the state after a fire and was no
| longer operational
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| Good call out, and also really sad.
| Balgair wrote:
| Also, make sure to do with with Wills and Trusts. Going
| through probate is a _nightmare_.
|
| https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/probate.asp
|
| Also, if you can, just put your loved ones as joint users
| on your banking accounts. That way when you die, it just
| rolls over to them without much hassle. I know not everyone
| has that kind of trusting relationship, but if you do, this
| is one little way to enjoy the fruits of it.
| wiredfool wrote:
| And don't leave your will in your safety deposit box,
| because they may need the will to legally open it.
|
| (at least in Massachusetts, 15 years ago)
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| Thank you for sharing your story. As someone who's trying to
| get over my mom's passing (and not getting far) it helps so
| much to hear others. It wasn't until I entered the 'dead
| parents club' that others told me 'you never go over losing
| them'. Why is that some secret to bare after the fact? All my
| friends say 'just do some counseling'.
| Balgair wrote:
| When my child was born, they filled a hole in me I didn't
| even know was there.
|
| My FiL's passing has left a yawning chasm in me and an empty
| ocean in my SO's life. The club members are right, I think,
| you never really get over it. Time is not long enough to heal
| that wound.
|
| And it's impossible to understand unless you've lived it. I
| think that's why its a 'secret', those on the other side just
| aren't going to understand. It's like trying to talk to
| someone in French by speaking English slower and louder. You
| have to go back a long ways down the communication chain,
| down to pure emotions. And no one wants to do that unless
| they have to, not just because it's too raw (and it is), but
| also just because it takes a really long time.
|
| I have heard the 'just go to counseling' part too. Its ...
| well ... rage inducing. As if that could ever do any good and
| get me back to the person I was. I hear that too about
| veterans and their experience back home. Like we just
| defective and just go get fixed so that way we can go hiking
| and go to bars and concerts again and so you're not so sad
| and a bummer all the time.
|
| Like, um, fuck you, you fucking child? Sorry ... ? Have some
| compassion and ...
|
| But no, it's that they weren't there, they don't know, they
| can't, and that's a good thing.
|
| You've crossed a bridge, you can't go back. They haven't,
| yet. They will, and then their pain will let them know your
| pain. And it will suck, together, for a little while, until
| that pain comes again in a new way.
|
| Honestly, I can see why old people are so dour now. All these
| holes in their souls from all these dead people they knew.
|
| Yeah, so, therapy didn't really help, I think you can tell.
| andygcook wrote:
| If you didn't make it to the end of the article, there's a
| GoFundMe to help with care for Jake and Bess's daughter, Athena:
| https://www.gofundme.com/f/secure-a-bright-future-for-bess-a...
| solaire_oa wrote:
| It's not directly related to the article, but the music video for
| "Moving On" by James is singularly the most moving video I've
| seen about coming to terms with death and birth.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdcN4BRpmGI
| krunck wrote:
| Just tears.
| NickC25 wrote:
| Just going through this thread has reinforced the stark reality
| that while my struggles and issues are real and difficult, I'm
| incredibly fortunate to not have had to (hopefully ever) fight
| some of the battles others here have had to face and/or are
| currently facing. My issues pale in comparison.
|
| You guys are some incredibly admirable and resilient people.
| Infinite respect.
| llsf wrote:
| Not sure if this is biology only (turned 50) or COVID or intense
| (work in my case) life, but I also distinctly feel that I am
| clearly not the same for the past ~5 years.
|
| My self-diagnostic is mild burn out with a stressful work trying
| to get our start up to service, mild depression due I think to
| working remotely in my apartment, barely going outside even on
| weekend (my only human interactions are through zoom).
|
| I am trying to improve, but it feels that the energy spent during
| the past 5 years to dig that hole, is equal to energy to get out
| of that hole... and honestly at this point, I don't know if I
| can.
|
| Quitting could be an option, but I have been working since I was
| 20yo without interruption, never had to really interview, just
| got hired or pulled from current job. And that feels scary to me
| now over 50yo to quit and maybe change career for something more
| social and less taxing.
|
| I honestly do not know how long I can keep doing what I am
| currently doing. I need to keep myself in check to make sure that
| I do not go too far in that hole.
| shadowtree wrote:
| This is ageing, for most people, unless you're one of the few
| lucky ones.
|
| Death and destruction is the outcome of age, on a molecular,
| cellular and mental level. The foundational issue addressed by
| religion, because how else to deal with the unfathomable dread of
| "nothing gets really better, ever".
|
| Take solace in the fact that this is true for most of your fellow
| creatures.
|
| The concept of a happy ending, living happily ever after is a
| dangerous illusion. The best part is likely in the middle, or not
| at all. The end is pretty much always shit.
|
| Zen, Stoicism, Rebirth ... so many concepts to cope with this
| simple, basic fact. You get born, you grow up - and then you
| start dying.
| lordfrito wrote:
| I can relate -- without getting into too much detail, I lost my
| son at age 16 to an undiagnosed heart condition... same thing
| that took my mom when I was 7. It was genetic, and passed through
| me. I can't describe the depths of the grief I had, definitely
| changed me forever.
|
| I'll pass along some wisdom that was imparted to me at the time.
| A friend told me: "Life is for the living". I'm still here. It's
| my duty to keep carrying on in spite of it all. It's what my son
| and mom would have wanted. Honor their lives by carrying on in
| the life you still have.
| nextn wrote:
| Fenbendazol + Ivermectine cure cancer
|
| https://x.com/MakisMD/status/1870434418340299055
| https://x.com/VigilantFox/status/1877566079922208849
| bironran wrote:
| "How is this our life?"
|
| I asked that question so many times (for reference, see my
| comment on Jake's thread
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41163619 ). I asked it of my
| late wife. I asked it of my therapist. I asked it of my daughter,
| when she was sleeping.
|
| "Is this my life now?"
|
| The first few months were terrible. Then things started to get
| better. Before anyone jumps and says "a few months?! That's
| nothing!", there's a thing called "anticipatory grief". Look it
| up. (Besides, each grief journey is individual. Besides, who are
| you to criticize me?).
|
| Then things stopped getting worse. For a while life was flat.
| Colorless. Dark. I moved through the motions. Dropped my daughter
| at preschool, worked from home, picked her up, went to the
| playground, went home, dinner, bedtime story, lie in bed doing
| nothing. Rinse and repeat. Go to sleep early to avoid feeling.
|
| Then it started getting better. And better. And even better than
| that. Therapy, meds, pushing (omg so much pushing), friends, a
| new love. Things got continuously better. I'll never forget that
| year, but I also now know that I can survive what I think is the
| 2nd worst thing that can happen to a person. I know it cannot
| break me.
|
| And I think Bess found that out too. Parts of us died with them,
| but new parts are growing. Parenthood parts. Discovery parts.
|
| I remember watching my wife to make sure she was breathing. Then
| at the hospital. Then she wasn't. And it was terrible. A loss I
| cannot even describe, a part of your own soul that is torn out of
| you. Yet, that part was painful. Not just that, also in pain. In
| some sense, I was relieved she was no longer in pain. Even more
| relived she didn't have to witness her mom passing away. The
| world turning darker and more despair filling in. She missed on
| milestones, but also on sadness. And, at the end, I miss her but
| that part, slowly, became more bearable.
|
| To Bess - I can't promise it'll be ok. No one can. But it'll get
| easier to bare.
| sonofhans wrote:
| I've read this thread with familiarity and empathy and want to
| say: some people here are describing symptoms of PTSD. A
| traumatic event, however brief, can cause lasting repercussions
| in our body and mind. If you find yourself listless, ruminating
| over the event, scared, over-reactive, walking through a fog --
| and it goes on and you seemingly don't get better -- this is
| exactly what PTSD feels like.
|
| The initial conditions don't have to be war or child abuse. A car
| accident can cause it. A variant, Complex-PTSD, is often caused
| by traumatic events over time that cannot be escaped, like caring
| for a dying loved one.
|
| It's dangerous to you and it can be hard to treat, but it often
| is treatable. The best thing I've read about it (and boy, have I
| read a lot about this) is The Body Keeps the Score --
| https://www.besselvanderkolk.com/resources/the-body-keeps-th....
| Pete Walker also has published several books, and has many
| important and useful writings on his website -- https://www.pete-
| walker.com/
|
| PTSD doesn't go away. You just cover it up until it explodes
| again. Please, if you think this is you, read more and try to get
| some help.
| jll29 wrote:
| This was a tough story, and the comments show an ocean of
| additional human suffering on top of the OP's.
|
| After reading a hand full of the comments, I am scrolling over
| the rest, thinking "wow", it's HN, which I read it almost daily
| to scrutinize nerdy blogs, startup gossip and API critiques. In a
| way, it feels good that these same people are indeed "real"
| people with "real" problems, not robots or perfect beings of
| sorts who only IPO their tech and end up billionairs, flesh-and-
| bone humans.
|
| Reading this I wished I could just give a big HUG to everyone out
| there suffering for whatever reason; we all just have one life,
| let's live it in meaningful ways, let's help each other and be
| good to one another because anything else is really not worth it.
|
| Worn out, grief-struck after enountering death or other loss,
| sad, traumatized - it is all horrible but I believe anything can
| be overcome. No, you won't be the same, but the other version of
| you can heal, can still live a good - perhaps more aware, humble,
| slower and more thankful - life, taking it one day at a time.
|
| I'll be throwing in a "prayer for anon." - for everyone who
| posted here and the OP tonight: may their (your!) suffering
| cease, wounds heal, and meaning become clear in the end.
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