[HN Gopher] The subtle art of designing physical controls for cars
___________________________________________________________________
The subtle art of designing physical controls for cars
Author : vsdlrd
Score : 347 points
Date : 2025-02-11 19:15 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theturnsignalblog.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theturnsignalblog.com)
| mhb wrote:
| 1. Cars should have physical controls.
|
| 2. The smart knob is a clever device.
|
| 3? Smart knob somehow addresses cars no longer having physical
| controls.
| CRConrad wrote:
| 2. The smart knob _is a physical control._
|
| So 1 + 2 = 3. HTH!
| xp84 wrote:
| I applaud the author for putting thought into how to design
| digital controls, in contrast to the "just put whatever garbage
| on a touch screen" strategy most carmakers do today.
|
| However, I still question the benefit of this complex, modal
| control (you have to press a single knob to "cycle between"
| multiple modes). My ancient, 2016 car features three knobs. This
| luxury allows me to, without looking, adjust any of three
| settings (temp, fan, air location), as well as a button which
| does each seat heater, without any "check what mode it's in, tap,
| look at the tiny screen, tap again if necessary" step.
|
| True, in this trim, my car does not have a thermostat mode, which
| in theory is useful, but it is so trivial to modulate the
| temperature based on "do I feel cold, hot or comfortable right
| now" and reaching over to twist one of the controls anyway, and
| even in the other car I have which has this mode, I frequently
| need to adjust things anyway, except in that car some of the
| functions require multiple mode changes on the touch screen and
| looking away from the road.
| WildRyc wrote:
| The author is pretty clear that having more than two modes
| diminishes the usefulness of the interface. Three modes was
| complex enough that he redesigned it down.
|
| I've changed the channel tuner when I've reached for the volume
| knob. If the haptic feedback between the two is clearly
| different, that will help, no?
| layer8 wrote:
| Controls that require a feedback loop have more cognitive
| overhead than controls you can just use "blindly" (this
| includes not having to check for haptic feedback to test what
| mode it's in) and from pure muscle memory. For example, you
| learn that your preferred volume when driving on a highway is
| at (say) the two o'clock position, and with time you'll
| blindly turn the knob to that position without even
| consciously thinking about it. If, on the other hand, you
| "know" that the knob could be in a wrong mode, you'll tend to
| hesitate when operating it because of that anticipation,
| having to check back whether the knob is indeed in the
| correct mode.
| Animats wrote:
| Right. This "smart" knob is symmetrical, with no pointer
| that you can feel before turning the knob. So it's hard to
| use without looking. This is inferior to a simple
| mechanical knob.
| CRConrad wrote:
| It's not infinitely rotatable, though, like some knobs
| are; TFA mentioned a 270deg rotation range. So a pointer
| "beak" (or some other haptically recognisable asymmetry)
| should be easy to add.
| Animats wrote:
| It's infinitely rotatable unless the software tells the
| motor to push back. The encoder appears to be relative,
| rather than absolute, so the physical positioning at
| power-up is unknown. Thus, the physical knob can't have a
| physical pointer with consistent behavior.
|
| I have an LG washing machine with a knob like that. After
| power up, you have to turn it one notch before it lights
| up to indicate the current position, which is the default
| Normal cycle. So the knob has to be symmetrical, with no
| tactile pointer.
| CRConrad wrote:
| > It's infinitely rotatable unless the software tells the
| motor to push back.
|
| Aha? OK, I read that wrong then.
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| The key is the blindly ... driving is really a dangerous
| thing. Eye on as things happen.
|
| I still have a nightmare about the dog of my relative run
| to the road and get out between 2 parking cars. It is a
| miracle it was not killed. I would not be able to detect it
| if I doing all these knob and feedback thing.
|
| The old lady driving and stop in time in her old car ...
| knobs and eye on help
| oidar wrote:
| I agree. I don't want a "smart" knob. I'm dreading going car
| shopping sometime this next year. I anticipate having to rule
| out a large pool of cars to keep my controls navigable without
| looking.
| residentraspber wrote:
| I've found one good solution to this problem (for AC, at
| least): go for a car with a good "auto" mode!
|
| I hardly ever touch my AC, I just leave it on auto and the
| car does the rest to get it to the right temperature as
| quickly as possible.
|
| I suspect this is what most automakers think the real
| solution should be, just make it easy enough to set a temp
| and leave the rest to the computer.
| gertlex wrote:
| That's a reasonable point. Too bad an auto mode for my
| music and podcasts (of varying volume; also varying with
| whether I have a passenger) is probably not a thing...
|
| On the other hand, my sense with how I use temperature
| control in my car is that most of my interactions are (a)
| set mode at start of driving (b) incrementally turn the
| temperature dial a notch or two without looking at it.
| ssl-3 wrote:
| My current daily vehicle does a pretty fine job of
| figuring out what mode I want for HVAC.
|
| Sometimes, I do mash the defroster button when weather
| commands warm/dry air on the windshield and it's easy
| enough to find that with muscle memory.
|
| Otherwise, in normal seasonal weather, it works well and
| I don't change modes or temperature. Windows up, down,
| hot, cold, sunny, cloudy, dark, whatever -- it all works
| about the same.
|
| Previously, I drove an older version of the same vehicle.
| It also worked well until it forgot how to figure out
| what day it was due to a software issue. After that, it
| kind of had a mind of its own.
|
| (Now, a sane person would ask why that would have to do
| anything to do with HVAC performance.
|
| It gathered the current date, time, and position from
| GPS, the bearing from the nav's compass, and the solar
| intensity from a sensor on th dashboard.
|
| A bit of math and/or an almanac lookup later, and it also
| knows the position and angle of the sun relative to the
| car.
|
| So it knows when sunlight is streaming on through the
| driver's window, and adjusts automatically to compensate
| by providing relatively cool air from the dash vents only
| on that side. It also knows not to do this on a cloudy
| day as well as other things that seem obvious once a
| person starts thinking about them.
|
| Which is a magical kind of automation -- until the
| calendar is off by both years and months because Honda
| broke the clock and its understanding of the sun broke
| with it: https://didhondafixtheclocks.com/ )
| gertlex wrote:
| Ok, that's pretty neat sounding. I'm behind the times
| with a 15 year old Saturn that's fully manual controls
| (except headlights turning on).
|
| My temperature adjustments are the old fashioned "what
| temperature air to blow" and not "I want this end result
| temperature", so my previous comment is a whole different
| paradigm. Thinking about it, with more recent rentals, I
| haven't messed with temperature controls much either.
| ssl-3 wrote:
| The older one was a 2007 Honda van -- the newer one is
| from 2012. I think that system was introduced in MY 2005.
|
| Either way, it's almost certainly old enough that the
| patents are expired.
|
| And I was surprised by it myself. It would have seemed
| like absolute wizardry to me if I knew of it back in '05.
|
| You raise an interesting point about more-recent rentals:
| People don't talk much about how stuff like this works,
| because if it is working well then they don't need to
| think about it at all. They don't even need to notice it.
|
| And it's not perfect, but it's still Really, Really Good
| at accomplishing that task of being out of mind.
| lycopodiopsida wrote:
| I was complaining about lack of physical buttons in my VW
| compared to my BMW before it, but then I thought about it
| - what do I actually use? Climate control is set to 20C
| and stays there. Carplay starts when I board the car and
| resumes what it was doing the last ride. Seat and wheel
| heating start dependent on temperature. There is actually
| nothing to set besides window heating (dedicated buttons)
| and volume (slider and wheel buttons). I was a bit angry
| at capacitive wheel buttons, but since I've discovered
| that I can set speed by 10 steps with a swipe I have to
| say that I don't care that much.
|
| I still think that Skoda has much better controls,
| though. They also look and work quite similar to the
| control in OP.
| nottorp wrote:
| Maybe in California :) In other places you need defrost,
| windshield defog etc.
|
| I regularly cross our (small) mountains on holidays and
| that means temperature and humidity outside can change
| every 20 min on a trip as you go from a depression to a
| mountain pass and back to a different depression with a
| different weather.
|
| The target temperature control stays unmoved, but i
| randomly have to turn on and off the defog, for example.
| Can't keep the defog on all the time because it pushes a
| ton of hot air to the windshield and then in my face,
| rather keep it off when i don't need it.
|
| Hey speaking of fog, do Teslas even have fog lights? How
| many layers of menu do you have to go through to turn them
| on and off?
| yial wrote:
| Newer cars read the outside temperature, and adjust the
| auto. I don't know if they sense condensation on the
| inside. I know that they sense water on the outside to
| automatically engage wipers.
|
| I have found even the best ones though, to get the rear
| defrost right, but fail to get front defrost correct in
| high humidity conditions that aren't just normal rain.
| (Very dense fog, snow, sleet ).
| genewitch wrote:
| Subaru front facing cameras just shut off the eye sight
| system when the window fogs. The defrost selection is a
| button, which means it's computer controlled.
|
| In theory the computer knows when it needs defrost.
| msrenee wrote:
| So yesterday was a windchill of -5F or something equally
| miserable. I spent about 20 minutes out in it and then
| drove home. When I got into the car, the heat felt perfect
| on full blast as I shivered and thawed. About 15 minutes
| into my 30 minute drive, my body temperature caught up and
| I had to turn the heat down to low as I was getting too
| warm.
|
| A couple months from now, I'll have the same situation,
| except it will be 95 F outside after a long, hot work day
| and I'll jack the AC up to get down to a comfortable body
| temperature. Once I cool off, the AC on full blast will be
| way too cold to tolerate.
|
| Thankfully, I've got an 8-year-old base model car that
| allows me to do all that with physical dials that don't
| take my attention off the road. I can't imagine what it
| would take to program an "auto" mode that knows how long it
| takes for my body to reach a comfortable temperature after
| being out in the elements. I think I'd lose my mind if my
| car just blithely set itself to 70 degrees and assumed that
| would work for me. That may be an option for office workers
| in milder climates, but they're not the only ones buying
| cars.
| genewitch wrote:
| A lot of these solutions that people are mentioning, or
| the types of cars with climate controls they like, seem
| to be posting from places like San Diego or the
| California Bay area as opposed to places like, you know,
| the Midwest or the South or the Pacific Northwest or, you
| know, New England.
| bityard wrote:
| Don't forget that almost every car made in the last 5 years
| reports telemetry (including vehicle speed, accelerometer
| data, and location) back to the manufacturer who shares that
| data with third parties, sometimes including insurance
| companies.
| snypher wrote:
| And guess who gets use of that data in lawsuits between the
| manufacturer and you?!
| majestik wrote:
| Source?
| BytesAndGears wrote:
| Here's a decent one:
|
| https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/blog/privacy-nightmare-
| on-...
| conductr wrote:
| My wife bought a new car with fully digital display a year
| ago. For me, I got a 2013 low mileage dumb car. Couldn't find
| anything new that I liked with my preferred level of UX
| technology (or lack of). I drive both equally and even a year
| later, I hate operating anything in her car. Once you get it
| dialed in, not too bad, but there's constantly edge cases of
| things you do infrequently and really have to search around
| for how to change a setting. The dealership always changes
| something when we take it for regular maintenance and it's
| always a PITA to figure it out how to get it back to normal.
| Also, it seems impossible to set a default setting for many
| things. There's a feature that activates anti-glare on the
| rear mirrors, for me it makes driving at night impossible,
| and I can't set and forget my preference. Every time the car
| starts my preference is overridden. It's maddening. The only
| saving grace is this feature only requires 2 clicks on the
| rear mirror (1 click of 2 physical buttons). I've memorized
| those clicks and can do them without having to go through
| screen clicks and hamburger menu hell.
| mavamaarten wrote:
| Oh how I wish I could turn off the anti-glare function of
| my side mirrors (Audi). For the rear mirror I don't mind
| it, but it completely fucks my side vision in the dark.
| Brightness of lights is totally a valid way to guesstimate
| distance, and if everything is just a dark reflection I
| totally have no sense of depth anymore.
| groby_b wrote:
| There's also the fact that most thermostats do manage to keep
| the sensor input constant, but that's surprisingly uncorrelated
| with how you actually _feel_.
|
| (Often due to the slightly bonkers idea that single sensor,
| often not in any location the user is, will correctly reflect
| the actual environment)
|
| "Make it warmer/colder" is sufficient input and doesn't pretend
| a precision it doesn't have.
| benoliver999 wrote:
| Rolls Royce do this I think
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| My 1997 Lexus has a knob that controls the digital climate
| control. Except that instead of a spinny position encoder, they
| used a knob with stops so you have tactile feedback for when
| the temperature is all the way up or down.
|
| This is the kind of detail that I love about a well engineered
| car.
| DigitalSea wrote:
| My 2004 5 series BMW had this (it was called iDrive). A
| command style knob that could move on an axis of sorts (up
| and down, left, right). You could also press it in. I
| absolutely hated it.
| CRConrad wrote:
| That was among the first generations of iDrive. I was (and
| to some extent still am) skeptical, particularly given how
| overwhelmingly negative the reception was at the time. But,
| FWIW, the motoring press was later - as BMW apparently
| improved the system significantly - swayed to accept, and
| sometimes even praise, the iDrive. At least from about
| 2015-20, or possibly as early as 2010-15.
|
| Can't give any personal evaluation, as I've never (AFAICR)
| driven a BMW.
| Royce-CMR wrote:
| Small review, 2013 BMW 335xi (drove for a test drive).
| Loved iDrive. Remained my benchmark for car infotainment
| UI for 10+ years. The main thing, you could DRVIE the
| car, aggressively, and give commands to infotainment
| without missing a beat.
|
| Truly a lost art today. Fond memories.
| getlawgdon wrote:
| Aggressive BMW driver. You don't say.
| Hamuko wrote:
| The first iDrive version was CCC, and it was reviled back
| then and is still currently. I think the opinion shift
| happened with the CIC version, which started rolling out
| at around 2009 and had a massively different user
| interface. And you can tell that CIC was a much better
| system since the next version introduced around 2013,
| NBT, only tweaked the CIC UI instead of completely
| replacing it.
| rad_gruchalski wrote:
| They have removed it in their newest models. They have
| truly lost their minds at BMW. Everything on the touch
| screen and the panel that housed all tactile buttons how
| now one big led strip. Truly dumb design and a ton of
| wasted space.
| gertlex wrote:
| Curious if I am missing a detail: It sounds like a knob with
| endstops, incremental notches for a finite number of
| positions between the endstops, and probably a spinny
| position encoder underneath it?
|
| (this also describes my 2009 saturn; I think; unsure, but
| that's a good sign: I don't look at/think about this knob
| conciously!)
| rkagerer wrote:
| That's how all knobs used to work. Those were good times.
| nottorp wrote:
| That's how the knobs normally work. And the original poster
| describes how "automatic a/c" or "climate controls" have
| always worked in cars, you set a target temp and they handle
| fan speed and air temperature.
|
| Why does the article want to make a multifunction dial with
| no tactile feedback? Have they only ever driven a Tesla?
| rahoulb wrote:
| There's a whole section in the article about experimenting
| with different positions and weights of the haptic feedback
| as the dial is moved and how to tie them in to the display
| on the control itself.
| nottorp wrote:
| Yes. But how about a dial that stops turning at the
| minimum and maximum and doesn't need you to take your
| eyes away from the road at all?
|
| So last century eh? Maybe also less life threatening.
| yellowapple wrote:
| > But how about a dial that stops turning at the minimum
| and maximum
|
| That, too, is mentioned in the article ("This means you
| can simulate different types of haptic feedback, like
| different detent strengths and hard stops.").
|
| > and doesn't need you to take your eyes away from the
| road at all?
|
| Also addressed in the article ("Showing three different
| data types in one dial is possible but definitely the
| maximum. When adding a fourth function, keeping track of
| your position in the interface without looking down
| becomes too difficult.").
| arkh wrote:
| > you set a target temp
|
| You should be able to set 2 temps.
|
| Early morning in summer: temperature is under 15degC, no
| need to heat over 20degC. Evening: outside is 30degC, I
| don't need 20degC in the car anymore but 25ish would be
| perfect. A 2 temperatures setting or 1 temperature + delta
| would prevent having to change it every time I enter the
| car.
| nottorp wrote:
| You're designing the controls for the area you live in
| and for your driving patterns now.
|
| There's some famous electric car manufacturer that did
| the same. His products were unusable in some locales even
| before he went all political.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| BMW's first iteration of iDrive was very ill-received,
| and so they improved it. I think launching a global car
| brand is pretty difficult, even if you don't like the
| guy.
| nottorp wrote:
| But I test drove a Tesla and besides the stupid tablet
| controls the smart turn stalks couldn't hold a turn
| signal when turning left at a crossroads that wasn't at
| 90 degrees. That's life threatening if you ask me.
|
| No, I don't need to know Musk's politics to avoid his
| cars.
|
| Of course, it's well known that BMWs come without a turn
| stalk so maybe it seems normal if you compare those two
| brands :)
| amluto wrote:
| My biggest objection to modern smart turn signal stalks
| is that you can't turn the turn signal off easily.
| Sometimes the signal is on, I want it off, and there
| simply is no way to do it reliably. The old latching
| stalks could be moved to the center position, and the
| signal would turn off every time.
| nottorp wrote:
| With the Tesla i couldn't keep it on to turn left at
| something like 30 to 45 degrees and at the same time
| maneuver to the lane reserved for taking that left. Which
| required turning the wheel _right_ a bit.
|
| Since I was test driving, I just moved forward instead.
| hgomersall wrote:
| You don't need any of that. You just need a knob that
| ranges from make as cold as you can to make as hot as you
| can and a reasonable fine grain in between. I can find
| the right set point because I'm literally sat next to the
| knob and I'm a better control system than anything they
| can come up with.
| nottorp wrote:
| My (old, obsolete) car's knobs not only stop completely
| at the extremes, but they aren't truly continuous but
| have "stops" every half degree that you can feel in your
| hand while turning them without looking at them at all.
|
| That's too ... physical ... for modern designs, I guess?
| arkh wrote:
| And I'm a lazy fucker: I want to set a temperature range
| and then not bother until I sell the car. Under the
| range? Heat it. Over? Freeze it. But a range, not a
| single point. So if the temperature is between min and
| max, the AC stays off.
| hgomersall wrote:
| I posit you're unusual in your opinion. I mostly observe
| people use the climate control knob like a heater knob.
| If it's cold, the set temperature gets cranked up; if hot
| it gets cranked down.
| nottorp wrote:
| I don't like thermal shocks when getting in/out of the
| car so I stick it to a low-ish temperature in winter and
| something high-ish but still bearable in summer.
|
| I really don't like getting out of a car cooled to 18 C
| when outside it's 30+.
|
| However this just proves "smart" automatic a/c is useless
| because, newsflash, different people have different
| habits.
| ninalanyon wrote:
| > I mostly observe people use the climate control knob
| like a heater knob.
|
| That's because their car has badly designed and
| implemented climate control.
|
| I do that in my current car because it has crap climate
| control, Tesla S 70D. In my previous car I set it when I
| bought the car and adjusted it perhaps once a year, Rover
| 75 Connoisseur.
| BurningFrog wrote:
| This is, by far, my main AC complaint. Since it's almost
| always not the exact requested temperature, the AC noise
| is always on.
| Lanolderen wrote:
| The issue I see with AUTO most often is noise. Almost
| every time I've disabled AUTO was in the beginning of a
| drive while talking to someone having to yell over the
| fans or just going to move my car 10 meters and it just
| being annoyingly loud.
|
| The temp I don't believe you can really fix. Sometimes I
| throw my jacket in the back, sometimes I keep it on,
| sometimes I'm tired or my stomach is upset and I want it
| to be a sauna, sometimes I'm sweaty and want it to be a
| fridge..
| HPsquared wrote:
| Some cars have an option for how "intense" you want the
| system to be.
| yial wrote:
| From my experience: BMW _, Subaru, and Mazda the auto
| settings are worthless / not functional.
|
| Audi is okay.
|
| The best I've found is Infiniti, which 2013 ish on, the
| auto settings are perfect 99% of the time.
|
| (This of course means, you do have to adjust the
| temperature setting, but once set the fans spinning up
| and down are perfect along with the heat moderation. )
|
| _BMW could be user error on my part. The longest I've
| used a BMW is 3 weeks, with probably 9 weeks of total
| usage, and while I tried to get the auto settings to
| work, on multiple models it was nothing but agony for me.
| dupays wrote:
| I just wrote the same thing. It seems obvious. Set range
| and forget.
| ninalanyon wrote:
| The two thumb wheels on the steering wheel of my 2015 Tesla
| Model S 70D most definitely have tactile feedback. They can
| be 'programmed' to control various things such as media
| selection, cabin temperature, open/close the roof, etc.
| Unfortunately Tesla lost the plot with the Model 3 by
| removing most of the physical controls and then turned the
| Model S into a large version of the Model 3 by getting rid
| of the portrait orientation 17 inch screen and replacing it
| with the landscape 15 inch one from the Model 3.
|
| I've rented a BMWs a few times in the past and they have a
| clever multifunction knob cum joystick on the centre
| console but it's a bloody nuisance to use compared to a
| touchscreen in my opinion
| carabiner wrote:
| Toyota 3 knobs undefeated.
| contingencies wrote:
| Simplicity: are they _exactly the same_ knob, thus lowering
| ordering costs, shipping and receiving costs, inventory
| costs, supply chain costs, design costs, and error potential?
| Quite likely. This also allows upstream suppliers to double
| down on volume and work to lower costs at their end.
|
| Versus... the designer of a custom complex multi-part powered
| assembly (manufacturing cost not discussed, cleaning not
| discussed, visibility in varying light conditions not
| discussed) who has the fantasy that users want to squint at a
| tiny screen on a knob while driving, and that pushing all
| this and associated documentation down a global service
| network is going to come at an acceptable cost to users.
|
| This begs the question: who's the _real_ knob?
| carabiner wrote:
| Yep same knobs: https://www.amazon.com/559050C010-Control-
| Compatible-55905-0...
| schiffern wrote:
| The real luxury for me was _four_ knobs (or often sliders).
|
| https://i.ytimg.com/vi/W9AjhGko2mA/maxresdefault.jpg
|
| The fourth one controls recirculate, and it allowed you to
| set in-between positions between 100% recirculate and 100%
| fresh air.
|
| To simultaneously optimize pollution/humidity/CO2 I find I
| prefer about 80% recirculate and 20% fresh air, but achieving
| this configuration is impossible in most (all?) modern cars.
| hammock wrote:
| It is achievable in every car by cracking the window
| aitchnyu wrote:
| I used to do it in my former Skoda Fabia and the window
| just collapsed. Thank Indian roads. I noticed there is a
| subtle final movement from "cracked" to closed and I
| guess there is a big difference in vibrations related
| wear.
|
| Toyota ran ads encouraging owners to crack windows in the
| rain and I noticed no final movement. But I'm not risking
| it.
| schiffern wrote:
| That's the workaround I'm forced to use, but obviously
| the disadvantages are noise exposure and forgetting it's
| cracked resulting in rain entering the car. :-(
|
| Yay for "progress" eh? I _know_ the recirculate door
| servo can stop halfway, just let me control it...
| oalae5niMiel7qu wrote:
| Putting the recirculation door on a servo was another
| dumb MoDeRn car idea. Bring back the mechanical control
| that never failed.
| genewitch wrote:
| "It ain't got no gas in it."
| potato3732842 wrote:
| Why is it that when the entire auto industry does something
| right Toyota gets credit? Fanboyism is a pox upon online
| automotive discourse.
|
| Every OEM has used the 3-knob design on and off but it was
| particualrly hot in the 90s and 00s. It isn't a Toyota thing,
| or even a specifically Japanese thing.
|
| Here's a random 00s Honda:
|
| https://www.samarins.com/reviews/img/cr-v_04_int_large.jpg
|
| Here's the OJ era bronco:
|
| https://media.carsandbids.com/cdn-
| cgi/image/width=2080,quali...
|
| Here's a GMT800
|
| https://jandjautowrecking.com/cdn/shop/files/57_8fc2bd4a-2cb.
| ..
|
| Here's a radom VW
|
| https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/7w0AAOSwApleAMyP/s-l1600.webp
| s0rce wrote:
| I find the thermostat mode only works on overcast days or at
| night as the sun contributes so much feeling of warmth when
| driving (in California) that the heating and cooling thermostat
| doesn't work well.
| kdmtctl wrote:
| As someone mentioned a Lexus in the thread, my memory popped
| up the fact that most expensive models have thermostat
| corrected for the sun position and probably current weather.
| Retric wrote:
| A sun load sensor mostly solves this, they used to be a high
| end feature but it's becoming more common.
| s0rce wrote:
| Oh, neat, never knew about that!
| nottorp wrote:
| High end? It's on my 15 year old Suzuki. I only know that
| because the diagnostics told my mechanic it's broken and he
| replaced it once :)
|
| It may just not be advertised.
| Retric wrote:
| Thus more common, it's still not an every model of every
| manufacturer thing. Tracking incoming angle is also less
| common etc.
| s0rce wrote:
| I don't think my 15 year old Suzuki has it :(
| conductr wrote:
| > "check what mode it's in, tap, look at the tiny screen, tap
| again if necessary"
|
| This is my concern as well. It's a perceived improvement in UI
| but still a loss over analog UX. I'll end up cranking the knob
| and wondering why my radio channels are rapidly changing when I
| wanted to adjust the volume. You're almost forced into
| retaining state of your knobs in your head if you want to do
| anything eyes-free. Eyes-free operations should be the ultimate
| goal, that's what we had with analog.
| genewitch wrote:
| My Lexus has climate control up down and track selection up
| down in the same column within inches of eachother and I have
| to look every time. Even the fact there's a knob next to the
| track ones...
| mhdhn wrote:
| Digital controls? Hell no. Just say no.
| brailsafe wrote:
| Not even once
| makeitdouble wrote:
| FTA
|
| > I discovered thermal comfort depends on four environmental
| factors: air temperature, heat radiation, airflow, and
| humidity.
|
| He's managing more variables than those handled by your three
| knobs, and also deals with seat temperature in his setting.
|
| You might not want any of the finer control, some don't even
| want climate control and will run with open windows in dead
| winter. But I see a lot of benefit of his approach for anyone
| who cares as much as him about climate control.
| rounce wrote:
| A good interface would provide a helpful abstraction that
| allows the user to make clearer and faster decisions about
| those four variables rather than just exposing them directly
| to the user.
| isolli wrote:
| Interesting comment regarding the lack of a thermostat.
| Sometimes, qualitative setting is better than quantitative.
| Precise temperature settings lead to overthinking and fiddling,
| in my experience. With qualitative settings, at most two
| interventions are necessary to reach a comfortable setting.
| mihaaly wrote:
| I gave up on having decent and reliable design of controls in
| cars. Even if someone would come up with something having
| minimal (preferably zero) cognitive disruption that is easy to
| learn and used to, the constant self-forced and determined
| nervous pressure of providing new, and new, and very new, and
| revolutionary, and new revolutionary, and disruptive, will make
| me re-learn whatever new idea is forced on me with a new car. I
| dread replacing our 20 yo car. But we have to. Maybe -
| considering all other troubles with modern cars, like very poor
| computerization and inherent safety issues, optimization to the
| level of corruption or unreliability, sales hostility
| (subscription), nauseating design nightmares - better move to a
| city and country with decent mass transit system. Could be a
| win-win for us and the environment. For the missed cases there
| is taxi and rental. Car dominated societies are not nice to
| live in anyway.
| drdude wrote:
| I gave up on cars in the US for few years now... I just
| bought a hyper electric escooter and use it to travel 60+/-
| miles per charge... no gas, no insurance, no maintenance
| (only the rare flats and brake pad changes), and no plate and
| safety/emission... etc etc.
|
| Buy once, use till the battery dies... rinse and repeat...
| gear is inconvenient though but can put up with it.
| genewitch wrote:
| Where I'm at there's a cross on the side of the highway
| every quarter mile or so to mark where people who decided
| to not use a car to commute that day are commemorated.
| scottbez1 wrote:
| Oh, hi, creator of the SmartKnob (mentioned in the article) here
| - I'm continually blown away by how much UX discussion it has
| generated over the years!
|
| One of the things I regret a bit about the prototype and demo I
| originally shared is that I used a press action and the screen as
| a modal/menu interface. The screen makes for a snazzy demo video,
| and works great for interfaces where you have the user's full
| attention (like a smart home control panel) but I think there's a
| lot more potential for just the haptics, paired with other
| dedicated buttons to switch to specific (i.e. not a menu of)
| modes, like this later demo I built using the haptic feedback for
| a video timeline jog tool: https://youtu.be/J9192DfZplk
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| The smart knob you made is genuinely one of the best hardware
| creations I have _ever_ seen. I only wish that I was creative
| enough to think up good uses for it so that I could put it to
| work, lol.
| scottbez1 wrote:
| Haha, I've built at least 5 of them and my problem is that I
| enjoy the hardware/design portion as a hobby, but writing the
| software to put them to use feels too much like my day job,
| so I haven't actually done anything too useful yet...
| robocat wrote:
| Have you worked in electronics design?
|
| Your knowledge seems practical and fairly deep to me. I
| loved electronics so I got an electronics degree and I
| ended up with an irrational antipathy towards electronics
| since then. Got a software job instead which turned out to
| be a great career (compared with most of the electronics
| guys I know).
| usmanmehmood55 wrote:
| I was just thinking about this while checking out the
| Seedlabs page.
|
| Because now it is somewhat commercially available, and a
| lot of people (including myself) that previously weren't
| thinking of having this just because of the hasstle of
| assembling it themselves, can now consider buying a pre-
| made unit and play around with it.
|
| I was thinking that it'd be REALLY GREAT if there was an
| easy way of making "apps" for this smart knob. Kind of like
| watchfaces or pebble apps. Anything to make it easier for
| people to play around with this. Maybe a lightweight SDK or
| something.
|
| I'd be more than happy to contribute to such a thing, but
| doing this alone is too daunting of a task.
|
| Side note, the 245 EUR price by Seedlabs is equally
| daunting :(
| hinkley wrote:
| There's a commercial product that looks like a fancy fancy
| version of this and I think has a tilt sensor as well.
|
| It's notable not just because it is loved by some media people,
| both art and video, but also because it's shown up on the
| pilot's chair in several notable sci fi movies/series with an
| outer space theme.
|
| I do want more smart devices with analog inputs and outputs
| though. I feel like Ambient Technologies were onto something
| but never found the market fit I hoped they would find.
| crote wrote:
| Let me guess: 3DConnexion's SpaceMouse?
| 0_____0 wrote:
| I've used it for 3D CAD and seen it on The Expanse as part
| of the bridge crash couch props on the Martian vessels.
| They also used an older model of Black Diamond headlamp for
| the space suit lights in early seasons. There's a balance
| to be struck here - too much reuse of modern objects and it
| pulls you out of the action. I think the Expanse did it
| well.
| hinkley wrote:
| Yes! Seen it on several bridges.
| LoganDark wrote:
| I wish the devkits were not out of stock!! I've been wanting to
| get or make one of these for years
| snickmy wrote:
| we still have some units, but available only in UK
| genewitch wrote:
| UK closed its ports and airports or what?
| InfinityByTen wrote:
| I am actually also enjoying the critical thinking about UX that
| is stemming from this design.
|
| I'm starting to feel that full software modifiable screens are
| not the "new age" of in-car experience, but a v.01 of highly
| customizable, highly complicated settings control; a lazy first
| implementation. What we are seeing with your design is more of
| the refinement of the concept. So, kudos to you!
|
| I concur with many people that this might still not completely
| cut for "eyes-free" usage which you need while driving a car.
| But for a lot of applications, it's a way more premium/refined
| interface. I'd limit the number of options on the main menu to
| 5 and already you've reduced the number of buttons from 10 to
| one knob.
|
| On the note of just using the haptic feedback: did you compare
| things to the surface dial? I really expected that to gain more
| "mainstream" traction, but it seems to have fizzled out.
| gamedever wrote:
| How is this different than a Nest thermostat? It's got a
| rotating knob you push in to switch modes and haptic feedback
| for clicks
| snickmy wrote:
| I'm not aware the new nest has a haptic feedback for the
| detents (those tiny steps as you rotate) to create a force
| resistance
| conferza wrote:
| That's pretty cool! Thanks for sharing.
| modzu wrote:
| should read, "the _lost_ art of designing physical controls... "
| uberdru wrote:
| This is a solved problem. My 2009 4Runner has the perfect temp
| control. I couldn't tell you how it works. But my hand knows.
| Which is perfect tool design.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| Car manufacturers, please hire this guy to build your interfaces.
| He gets it. Touch screens _must not_ be used for controls you are
| going to frequently operate while driving the car, it 's maximum
| unsafe.
| the_snooze wrote:
| I feel like car touch screens are designed like those 3D
| hologram interfaces in Minority Report: they look really cool
| and you want them, but they're entirely impractical in day-to-
| day operation. If car manufacturers are optimizing for cars
| looking cool in the dealership, whiz-bang touchscreens win over
| boring physical controls.
| groby_b wrote:
| I wish that was the unsafest thing car manufacturers did.
|
| Jeep, for example, has just discovered a predilection for
| random full-screen alerts with a blaring alarm sound, if, for
| example, they magically inferred there's a tow-truck somewhere.
| (There's about a 50% chance you'll encounter a tow truck in the
| next 10 minutes, at best)
|
| This is great if, say, you're three hours into a night drive,
| all alone on the road, and suddenly ALARM THE WORLD IS ENDING.
|
| I actively hate car manufacturers. They should not be allowed
| to use touch screens. Even if they could be useful - they have
| repeatedly proven they are too stupid to use them well.
| cookie_monsta wrote:
| Why a tow truck?
| groby_b wrote:
| I literally do not know.
|
| I assume it is because tow trucks are large, and will be
| slow moving when they merge/tow. I can totally imagine the
| meeting that took that argument and lead to that feature.
|
| But I'm fairly certain that if you're so distracted you
| don't see the giant tow truck, a message on your
| entertainment screen isn't going to help.
| m463 wrote:
| I'm pretty sure car manufacturers "get it" too, but the
| marketing team/parts count person has a conflicting agenda.
| nottorp wrote:
| :) maybe they could just put several single use knobs in and
| call it a day.
|
| This is still too multi function.
| _tariky wrote:
| My Skoda Superb(2015) have very similar knobs for controlling
| temperature and when pressed it turns on seat heater.
|
| From the first time I used it. It felt so natural and intuitive
| to use.
|
| But unfortunately touch screen infotainment system is pure
| garbage.
| Animats wrote:
| Mandatory XKCD.[1]
|
| [1] https://xkcd.com/2704/
| 51Cards wrote:
| Kudos for to the author for the work put into this and the
| intelligence functions are interesting. I do have a couple
| concerns though.
|
| A. Trying to design down to two knobs makes each knob multi-
| modal. This removes a lot of muscle memory benefits requiring a
| glance at a screen, a small screen that is now partially covered
| by your hand while operating the knob. Haptic feedback might be
| able to help you know what mode you're in without looking but now
| you have a lot more to memorize to use it while keeping your eyes
| on the road which may begin to defeat the simplicity benefits.
|
| B. Haptic feedback... will this work with gloves on? (will you
| feel it, will it sense your touch)
|
| A lot of manual systems now have 3 knobs, not much more than the
| 2 presented here, which will always do the same thing each time
| you reach for them. My concern would be how long it would take
| the user to be familar with the interface without looking. One
| quick thought, I would be inclined to think that feedback through
| a large screen not covered by your fingers might have advantages.
|
| It's a great study on UI consistancy however, esp around how to
| program the detents, etc.
| crote wrote:
| I think the multi-modal stuff can be mostly fixed by dedicated
| mode selection buttons, which can be blindly pressed to enter a
| specific mode. The logical option would be to place them around
| the dial like a pie chart, as that would be trivial to find
| without looking. Place those buttons _underneath_ the dial
| instead and you can use the display as a clear mode indicator
| as well, without the hand obscuring it.
|
| You could also put a copy of the display somewhere in the
| driver's HUD. It'd still draw some attention, but having it for
| example temporarily fill up the center of the speed dial
| (perhaps in some way only when the driver is touching it?)
| would be a lot less distractive than having to look all the way
| over on the infotainment panel.
|
| As to B: it's a physical knob, with a motor pushing against
| your turning force. It'll have zero trouble with gloves.
| 51Cards wrote:
| Agreed to rotating the knob on the second point... but it
| looks like a touch screen to change modes? Or is it a
| physical push button under the knob? I may have been unclear
| on how the knob functions.
| pmontra wrote:
| A very tangential note about this:
|
| > Much like a door handle should communicate whether to pull or
| push a door,
|
| For many common doors it's not the handle, it's the frame.
| Standing on one side of the frame we see that the door is free
| and we can pull it. On the other side we see that the door hits
| the frame and we must push it.
| crote wrote:
| Yeah, but it's not _supposed_ to. With good design it is
| immediately obvious whether the door is push or pull - even
| when the frame doesn 't have any clear indications. For
| example, the door in [0] (apologies for the YT short) has no
| immediately clear hints if you look at the frame or handle.
|
| Both sides look exactly the same, so how are you supposed to
| know? Add a "push/pull" sticker you'll miss 90% of the time?
|
| The Vox vodcast(?) in [1] goes a lot further into the problem,
| starting from a very similar door. The solution is pretty
| simple, in hindsight: if they designed the door properly, you
| won't even be _able_ to pull on a push door. Have a pull handle
| on the pull side, and a push _plate_ on the push side.
|
| [0]: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/oJnEjV8vQJg
|
| [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY96hTb8WgI
| Terr_ wrote:
| I wish car manufacturers would refocus from touchscreens (for
| reasons I will assume everyone understands) to a cost-cutting
| compromise of _modular_ physical knobs and buttons.
|
| Imagine if there was a standard form-factor, so manufacturers
| could install a 1x4 unit and then plug in a line of dials or
| button-clusters, where each section has its own tiny display that
| can be software-controlled to show what it does.
|
| Yeah, it won't always match the exact lines and swoops designers
| want to use, but I want usability, I don't buy a car to show off
| the interior to others. The people who _do_ do that are probably
| buying much more expensive cars and can easily afford to do
| things the classic way.
| crote wrote:
| Cars used to have modular buttons. It was _very_ common to have
| a couple of blanks in your infotainment cluster.
|
| The problem is that it still requires custom per-feature
| assembly. A single car model needs a dozen different button
| configs, with a dozen different wiring harnesses. That's a lot
| more expensive than a simple one-size-fits-all touch screen you
| install into literally every single car and configure with a
| software flag.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Cars used to have modular buttons. It was very common to
| have a couple of blanks in your infotainment cluster._
|
| My brand-new luxury-brand EV still has blanks. Not all trim
| levels get the rear fog lights, or a few other things I can't
| remember. Also, they're used for buttons related to adding
| the towing package.
| hadlock wrote:
| Not all markets get all features at top trim levels. A top
| trim level 5 series in Malaysia is pretty close to the US
| base model 3 series (plastic trim panels vs wood or
| textured metal), whereas China sometimes has long wheelbase
| chassis available, and occasionally you can order power
| window shades and self closing doors. Even the US doesn't
| get LWB option here in the states (it's great though, your
| kid can't kick the back of your seat until they're almost
| 4)
| Terr_ wrote:
| AFAICT those were generally modular _per trim level_ , and
| mainly involved excluding features at lower trims.
|
| What I mean is something that is modular per-manufacturer or
| maybe even across manufacturers, where customization comes
| from the arrangement in a grid and what is pumped through
| each control's little display screen to identify its purpose
| and status.
|
| > A single car model needs a dozen different button configs,
| with a dozen different wiring harnesses.
|
| That seems to assume every button/dial will have a direct
| connection, but I'm thinking the harness would terminate in
| the block-of-sockets, which would be reprogrammable with
| logic like: "Analog input in socket 1 controls resistance on
| wires A and D with the following mapping. When value is in
| this range, show this picture."
|
| The motivating idea here is: "Can we keep a variety of
| physical controls while making them cheaper, more-functional,
| and easier to repair?"
| numpad0 wrote:
| There are still few models of Japanese cars in Japan that can
| be ordered _without infotainment_. It 'll come with a warning
| sticker to not poke your fingers. Those are intended for
| customers not satisfied with selections of stock infotainment
| upgrades - there are multiple choices of poverty specs to
| luxury infotainment units for the same model, in the first
| place.
|
| IMO, one of contributing factors to ongoing touchscreen
| apocalypse is "off the lot" model of American car purchasing,
| which penalizes custom configurations, which in turn eases
| development of customer hostile integrated infotainment.
|
| If manufacturers can't expect cars to retain stock, standard,
| integrated infotainment for the life of the car, some of the
| features can't be implemented by the infotainment team, but
| must be handled by chassis team to be offloaded to a separate
| computer. It can happen.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| This is one of the many things my dad did in his 40+ year career
| as an engineer at GM. I'm really excited to share this with him
| and grateful for such a write-up.
|
| A big thank you to the author, the person posted it here, and all
| those who upvoted it.
| steezeburger wrote:
| Reminds me of m5stack's dial
| https://shop.m5stack.com/products/m5stack-dial-esp32-s3-smar...
|
| I got a few to play around with for my home automation system,
| but haven't had the time.
| scottbez1 wrote:
| The m5stack dial is just a screen with rotary input ring, but
| doesn't have haptic feedback. They actually just launched a new
| product the roller485 or rollerCAN that in theory is a nice
| off-the-shelf BLDC haptic knob, but I haven't had a chance to
| play with mine yet
| dlcarrier wrote:
| Designing car controls is easy. You take what engineers have
| spent 100 yeas fine tuning every element of, for precision and
| ergonomics, then you give to someone with an industrial design
| degree who throws it all out the door to make something shiny,
| and it kills Anton Yelchin, amongst others.
| hadlock wrote:
| I've been convinced for a long time that much of this is a jobs
| program for staff ui/ux developers. The UI for AWS hasn't
| changed appreciably in ten years but they've still managed to
| redesign it at least three times in that period with no benefit
| to anyone. It would be nice if major companies would have a LTS
| UI for paid users and then allow the UX team to disrupt others
| workflow using an opt in strategy.
| hammock wrote:
| It's Google Nest for your car.
|
| OP mentions the Braun work on pots (potentiometers, the common
| lingo for rotary dials). I suggest they also check out the entire
| subculture around pots and faders in the music industry, where a
| lot of thought goes into them as relates to mixing board design
| and experience.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| I think a good analogy here is retro digital cameras. I have a
| Fuji X-T30, which is about five years old now. Still a decent
| camera and it has a lot of physical controls. Except they are not
| really physical controls. They are buttons and dials that are re-
| programmable. Even the aperture ring on my lens is not physically
| connected to anything. The aperture is controlled digitally. The
| aperture ring just gives off a signal to the camera that is than
| hooked up to the aperture. Some lenses even have re-programmable
| buttons now. Some cheaper lenses don't have dedicated controls
| like that. But you can still hook up one of the other dials on
| the body to do the same. There are wheel-button thingies on the
| front and the back that you can bind to whatever.
|
| Cars basically could use controls like that. Maybe with some
| sensible defaults; and there's going to be a bunch of things that
| most people would like to control with a button or a dial. Not
| that hard to execute and you can sell cars with more and less
| dials. Or no dials at all. The touch screen is always the cheap
| fallback. The buttons are a nice up-sell. And with the right APIs
| and wireless protocols, it wouldn't even be too hard to have
| third party bluetooth buttons even; or a strip of buttons that
| plugs in a USB socket. Or similar. You can buy flight simulator
| hardware that emulate most of a modern cockpit with physical
| buttons. Most of these things are USB devices. Some of these
| things are pretty affordable even. Throttle compartments, landing
| gear buttons, buttons with a satisfying click/thunk/etc. Whatever
| you want.
|
| Like it or not, this stuff is basically cost related. Buttons
| have lots of wires, components, etc. That increases cost of
| assembly and bill of materials. They can also break and cause
| additional cost under warranty. People need training on how to
| install and repair that stuff. The nice thing with a touch screen
| is that it's just a handful of components and wires. Installs in
| no time and if it breaks, it's easy to replace.
|
| So, the question for manufacturers then becomes what is the car
| with the least buttons that drivers still pay a premium for?
| Because, that's the most profitable for them. And the reality of
| course is that what people say what they'll buy mostly doesn't
| match their behavior in the show room.
|
| It's the same with a lot of products. It doesn't matter whether
| people are buying a TV, a phone, a new laptop or whatever. Some
| people really know what they are buying, but most don't, and some
| only think they know and talk themselves into buying crap they
| definitely are not going to be happy with.
|
| In the end, people mostly just select the thing with the largest
| feature matrix that still fits their budget. And the nice thing
| with software features is that there's no assembly or component
| cost involved. Modern cars are smart phones with wheels.
| Literally made by smart phone manufacturers like Huawei and
| Xiaomi even (both sell lots of cars in China).
| costcopizza wrote:
| One overlooked feature of physical controls is that they also
| give interiors an identity and experience.
|
| Growing up obsessed with cars, I loved seeing how different
| brands would lay out the cabin. Volvos from the 2000s used a
| rather large diagram of a seated person to select the HVAC vent
| for example.
|
| Also, in my brain, a 3000+ pound object just dang requires some
| stuff to physically press, push, and hear click!
|
| A couple giant touchscreens with touch controls nearly eliminates
| that.
| masklinn wrote:
| > Volvos from the 2000s used a diagram of a seated person to
| select the HVAC vent for example.
|
| ... don't all cars do this? I can't remember seeing anything
| other than that to represent which vents are active.
| rdlw wrote:
| Here's a picture: https://www.media.volvocars.com/uk/en-
| gb/media/photos/47385/...
| russellbeattie wrote:
| I get what you're saying, but I totally disagree with it. It
| reminds me of mid-2000s Nokia, where each year they completely
| redesigned their phones simply to change them. It turned out
| what people wanted was a brick with a few common buttons, a
| nice screen and a standard GUI.
|
| The main problem stems from the fact that car manufacturers
| will always choose novel designs over usability. They change
| components not to improve functionality, but simply for
| differentiation. As you pointed out, even if a control is well
| designed like Volvo's HVAC, it's phased out during the next
| refresh.
|
| A newer problem is that every single car maker is beyond
| incompetent when it comes to software and UX. It's not part of
| their culture and expertise. So in addition to bad or missing
| buttons, even the screens are a nightmare.
|
| This is an entrenched idea in the automotive industry, so it
| probably won't change, but it's something that really needs to
| stop in my opinion.
| marssaxman wrote:
| The classic Range Rover has a seat-adjustment control in the
| shape of a little seat. If you want your seat to lean back, you
| just grab the back of the miniature seat and push it in the
| appropriate direction; the motors in the actual seat move it to
| match.
|
| While I'd have preferred a simple, bulletproof, nonmotorized
| seat, if one _must_ automate, that 's a great interface.
| johnwalkr wrote:
| Other cars have this too. I was going to make the same
| comment, it's such a perfect interface.
| nraleigh wrote:
| This is nice. So tired of touch screen controls that I can't
| access without breaking my focus from driving. This is a nice
| middle ground where you can display rich graphics if you're
| looking down at the knob, but can also control by feel without
| losing focus.
| maxglute wrote:
| Standardizing voice control in cars will go a long way until
| vendors decide to standardize physical controls or car OS. I
| should be able to get in any car and say "Set heat to X",
| "Defrost Windows" etc.
| wnissen wrote:
| Told a rented Telsa "Turn on wipers". It replied that it didn't
| understand "Turn on vipers". Yes, car, I have a basket of
| venomous snakes in the back and wish them to be activated!
| Bravo!
|
| Once LLMs are a lot better at understanding intent, that is
| probably what we'll get, since it will be cheaper than even
| bargain basement mechanical controls.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| With better AI, the car could have searched YouTube for a
| documentary about snake reproduction.
| thecrumb wrote:
| Does that work with kids talking in the backseat, the radio
| playing, GPS reading directions out loud, all at the same time?
| bbarnett wrote:
| You should! Choice is great. I also should not have to talk to
| my car, I hate doing so.
| tiffanyh wrote:
| I'm always reminded of the QuickTime v4.0 volume rocker and how
| painful it was to use.
|
| Screenshot:
| https://www.macintoshrepository.org/_resize.php?imgenc=ZmlsZ...
|
| Fortunately, it was changed to just a slider in v5.0 as seen
| here: https://jablickar.cz/en/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/Apple-
| Qui...
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| I don't remember using that one, is it a wheel you can interact
| with, or does clicking the volume chunks change the volume?
| vt240 wrote:
| There's no wheel on a one button mouse :P Sorry I am really
| joking here. We have a number of Avid mixing consoles from
| the 2010s that have extensive mouse UI wheel controls, yet
| they shipped with trackball controllers. They're actually
| much easier to use with a standard three-button scroll-wheel
| mouse. Haha.
| ge96 wrote:
| Is that over kill to use a BLDC for a dial? They are pretty cheap
| nowadays
| thecrumb wrote:
| As I get older the one thing these designer overlook is aging
| eyesight. My Honda has decent controls but the small display
| (like on these knobs) is very difficult to see sitting still. At
| night, while driving - it's impossible. The icons are tiny. Given
| the size of the current screens in cars - that's a lot of real
| estate for knobs. Use it.
| _carbyau_ wrote:
| Given the way things are designed I feel I cannot emphasize
| your point on aging eyesight enough. Aging eyesight is a thing
| that affects _everyone_! [0]
|
| If you are in your twenties and designing things to be seen,
| invest in your own future as well as a large demographic that
| usually has more money...
|
| [0] https://www.aoa.org/healthy-eyes/eye-health-for-
| life/adult-v...
| CRConrad wrote:
| > Aging eyesight is a thing that affects _everyone!_
|
| If you're lucky.
| _carbyau_ wrote:
| :-)
|
| From a design point of view, everyone you care about. Dead
| people won't use your carefully designed widget.
| userbinator wrote:
| On the other hand, one of the most important aspects of
| physical controls is that you shouldn't need to look at them to
| operate them, as your eyes should remain on the road.
| usaphp wrote:
| I like controls in the upcoming Rivian cars, it's basically
| changing the physical feedback based on what you are selecting
| [1]
|
| 1 - https://youtu.be/k0Gt_PUyldc?si=VxK1rzWr0Vx0JUHd&t=371
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| My favorite car control system is the BMW iDrive rotary dial.
|
| Touch screens are fine for given much more fine-grained access to
| controls. But they should be limited to controls that you _don't
| need to set while driving_. It's absurd that it takes 3 taps on a
| screen -- diverting my attention to the screen -- on my Tesla to
| turn on defogging (a common event here!) while I can do it with a
| one touch (now muscle-memorized) on my Subaru.
| kdmtctl wrote:
| Did you ever tried to use the rotary dial for text input? I
| gave up immediately. The car has a regular screen regular, no
| touch. Something is good only when balanced.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Yeah, agreed on a rotary dial being terrible for text input.
| That's where a touch screen shines. But you shouldn't need to
| do anything requiring text input while driving.
| kdmtctl wrote:
| I barely used the dial while driving, except for track
| selection. There are lot of different knobs in old models)
| piperswe wrote:
| They have touchscreens now, so you can input text with an on-
| screen keyboard but do everything else with the controller.
| kdmtctl wrote:
| Sure. That what I meant balanced.
| hadlock wrote:
| Only twice in seven years did voice control not work for me.
| I can't recall the last time bmw didn't have touchscreen in a
| car but it predates 2014
| kdmtctl wrote:
| I haven't had many, so I do have a touch screen. But I've
| tried the rotary input on a rental 2 series that had a dial
| but no touch screen, and I had to use the GPS.
| ggreer wrote:
| That's odd. I live in the Pacific Northwest and I can count on
| one hand the number of times I've had to manually turn on
| defogging. Often my Model 3 will say, "auto defogging". Maybe
| your humidity sensor is faulty?
|
| I agree that physical controls for these things would be ideal,
| but nowadays the only one that annoys me is lack of the wiper
| controls. I think even that issue would go away if Tesla used
| rain sensors instead of cameras to trigger the wipers.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| They've improved the wiper controls in the Tesla in a recent
| update.
|
| I haven't found the "auto defogging" - will check for it.
| ggreer wrote:
| The wipers are certainly better than when I got the car 5
| years ago, but they still seem to go too slow or too fast
| in some conditions. I don't have much to compare them
| against, as my previous cars have all been from the early
| 1990s or cheap rentals.
|
| I don't remember a setting for auto defogging. My car just
| does it sometimes.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| > they still seem to go too slow or too fast in some
| conditions
|
| yeah, same here. Our Subaru does better in this regard.
| NotYourLawyer wrote:
| Touch screens are such a lazy, shitty, dangerous way to implement
| 90% of the functions they're currently used for. Good to see that
| at least one person is working on this problem.
| bdangubic wrote:
| hard agree though I think most people don't realize that you
| don't need to use a touchscreen at all if you are willing to
| talk to your car. I yell a lot in the car trying to turn shit
| on on the touchscreen but luckily my 11-year is almost always
| in the car with me with the words of wisdom "just ask the car
| to do it" :)
| mmooss wrote:
| Lots of research is done on UI for cars and planes, for
| understandable reasons. I wonder how much is applicable to other
| less valued devices where there is little research.
|
| I thought of it because someone was talking about their new
| super-bright, blinking bicycle tail light. I could see someone
| naively intuiting brighter is better or blinking is better, but I
| know UI well enough to know that naive intuition has poor
| accuracy.
|
| I spent a little time looking for empirical information but
| almost all I could find was cars. (I did find something that said
| blinking could be a problem because it's hard to visually and
| mentally track a moving object in the dark - it's in one spot,
| disappears, and then reappears in another spot. I did come across
| the standard blink cycle for cars, which includes total cycle
| length, and the on-period length and off-period length in each
| cycle.)
| DigitalSea wrote:
| I learned this lesson the hard way with my early 2000s BMW 5
| Series (a 2004 model). It had a single joystick-style knob
| (iDrive, if I remember correctly) controlling a screen that
| handled everything--climate, settings, and more. The problem? It
| was an all-in-one system, completely integrated with vehicle
| functions, which meant you couldn't swap it out for a newer or
| better OEM system. You were stuck with aging tech, and once the
| screen or computer started acting up, there were no simple fixes.
| No cheap button replacement, no easy upgrades.
|
| Compare that to an old LandCruiser or similar vehicle from the
| '80s. Physical controls still work decades later, and worst-case
| scenario, you replace a button or a switch for pocket change.
| Meanwhile, modern cars are turning into disposable tech products,
| destined for obsolescence the moment their proprietary systems
| fail. It's for this reason when I bought a new car a couple of
| years ago, I opted for a Toyota LandCruiser, the use of physical
| buttons (despite coming with touchscreens now) makes a huge
| difference when you're driving and want to press a button to
| change music or turn the volume up/down.
| NegativeLatency wrote:
| Having a standard DIN/double DIN slot for a head unit also
| makes upgrades/changes easier. With all the new cars having
| such bespoke and integrated systems, it makes stuff like
| changing out the head unit much harder.
|
| ex putting a new carplay double DIN head unit is much easier in
| older cars, and difficult/impossible in newer cars
| ssl-3 wrote:
| New-enough passenger cars tend to have connectivity like
| Carplay as a built-in.
|
| Old-enough passenger cars tend to have a standard-enough hole
| DIN-ish hole to fit a modern aftermarket unit with modern
| connectivity.
|
| In between those two, there's a world of cars that have
| touch-screen controls but lack modern connectivity. This is a
| subset of vehicles that cannot do anything but shrink as they
| age out.
|
| But there are some aftermarket solutions for these, too,
| which add modern connectivity while retaining the stock
| electronics and physical appearance. (There's actually quite
| a diverse array of these upgrades available, though the
| origin of these devices feels very strange to me compared to
| traditional car audio aftermarket, and it is also absolutely
| exclusively Chinese.)
| timc3 wrote:
| My 2021 BMW has iDrive and physical buttons and dials. It's a
| fantastic system.
|
| A lot of iDrive systems can be replaced, though I do worry
| where the cheap ebay components come from.
|
| Later iDrive was so much better than earlier, probably the best
| system I have used in a car, but now they have gone with huge
| touch screens. yes it looks impressive and no I don't want it.
| piperswe wrote:
| iDrive 7 (what you probably have in your 2021, and what I've
| had in 2022 and 2020 BMWs) is peak iDrive to me. The
| important stuff (climate control, volume, radio on/off) still
| has physical non-capacitive buttons, while the radio is
| entirely controllable with the touchscreen OR iDrive
| Controller (the puck in the center console). I barely have to
| take my eyes off the road to do anything, even in the iDrive
| system, since I have muscle memory for the iDrive Controller
| motions.
|
| And now they're rolling out iDrive 8 vehicles that move
| climate control to the touchscreen and don't even have the
| puck (looking at you, X1) and I can't imagine buying one of
| those cars. I'm happy with my 2020.
| hcarvalhoalves wrote:
| Sorry, but if you're suggesting any AC control different than
| simple knobs [1], you're failing miserably.
|
| This [1] type of control doesn't require taking eyes out the road
| to adjust temp, fan speed and fan direction. Since it's a simple
| fscking knob, it can be adjusted by feel alone, and both the
| clicks and the angle give feedback on what setting it is.
|
| The suggested solution is bad, for these reasons:
|
| It tries to be clever by providing the lost "clickness" with
| haptic feedback, but it still misses the most important feedback,
| which is the angle of the knob. So it still requires you take
| eyes out of the road to see the setting you're in.
|
| It also commits one of the cardinal sins of good UI, which is
| being a modal control. So, again, you need to take eyes out of
| the road and keep clicking to put in the right setting.
|
| [1]
| https://i0.wp.com/weberbrothersauto.s3.amazonaws.com/2022/12...
| amelius wrote:
| This looks very similar to the iPod slider control.
| mkayle wrote:
| Yeah, this article really nailed it. I totally agree about the
| touchscreen thing in cars. It's made driving so much more
| distracting, honestly. The point about haptic feedback and having
| a clear layout is so important. Good to see that some companies
| like Jaguar and Skoda are still getting it right with actual
| buttons and knobs! More should definitely follow their lead.
| Unearned5161 wrote:
| I guess that's a nicer touchscreen than others, but I just don't
| get why we need touchscreens at all to begin with. I'm a fan of
| Mazda having a touchless screen, and I'm even more a fan of my
| 2004 bmw X5 that has the beautiful control of minutely adjusting
| the temperature by turning a dial in the middle of the dash.
|
| You can set the temperature to something moderate like 70 or
| whatever and then if the air hitting your face and hands is too
| hot or cold, you just turn the dial, all other vents continue
| doing their thing at 70, but you can have hot/cold air on your
| hands at the same time. And, of course, you can do this
| adjustment in a split second while you merge onto the highway.
| brailsafe wrote:
| It's wild to me that so many people ITT obviously hate many
| aspects of the interface they have with their cars, and yet buy
| them new anyway and deal with it. Having not had a car for years,
| the only time I'd find this acceptable is if I was just buying a
| palatable but imperfect used car rather than a new one that's
| tens of thousands. I'd accept that some of these issues may not
| be discovered during the lead up research and testing phase, but
| it's weird and possibly upsetting that the pressure to buy an
| arbitrary car is so strong that some people would just get one
| anyway.
|
| If I need a car temporarily, these are things I can easily
| overlook for like the week I have it, but if the controls
| irritate me, I'm sure as hell not inclined to go out and buy one
| anyway.
| typewithrhythm wrote:
| What's the alternative? Most cars have similar interfaces, and
| few are what I would want; but if you have already decided to
| buy a new "luxury van" (fill in your preferred type and trim),
| then you don't really get much of a choice.
| brailsafe wrote:
| > but if you have already decided to buy a new "luxury van"
|
| Is that not a choice? That's the confusing bit. People
| talking about these like they've been held at gunpoint to
| consume luxury vehicles.
|
| My sense is that car/automobile purchases are just so
| ingrained as default necessities that the idea of not having
| one either is or seems to be unthinkable.
| renewiltord wrote:
| This is a really clever design for the device! Damn, very clever.
| It's not a car knob with the multi modal thing but it would be
| great for a home thermostat and related stuff. Click to switch to
| heat, Click to switch to cold, so on and so forth.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| I'm very happy with my Tesla touchscreen while buttons on recent
| Toyota rental sucked balls - they weren't spaced apart so you are
| taking your eyes off road. Some older Japanese cars place bunch
| of buttons in a little island that takes solid half minute to
| figure out what you need.
|
| People blindly reeeee'ing on touchscreens need to learn how to
| form a coherent arguments. i.e. they are not great for old and
| frail or some manufacturers don't know basics of UX.
|
| End of the day getting pissy about climate controls is
| ridiculous. If you can't operate car for few minutes within
| couple degrees comfortable temperature then you might be a
| problem.
| 31carmichael wrote:
| Any number of automobile manufactures should fire a bunch of
| staff and hire you. How we got to touch screens to control things
| which previously didn't require taking your eye off the road
| continues to amaze me.
| frankus wrote:
| One obvious (but probably obsolete) use of this would be a radio
| tuner where the strength of the detent is proportional to the
| strength of the radio signal.
| initramfs wrote:
| this is why I want my next car to have physical dials.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| All that is needed are knobs or buttons or switches to directly
| access as many functions as possible without the driver looking.
| For things in the screen, there should be a clicking knob that
| can navigate the screen without touch.
| AStonesThrow wrote:
| Perhaps we've lost the plot of both vehicles and computers.
|
| When I was a child, computers were office-based machines, and it
| seemed, at least, that computers ("bicycles for the mind",
| "paperless office", "You Will... AT&T") were going to make life
| simpler, efficient, and leisurely as they took over our menial
| labor.
|
| But computers came into homes, and just tended to be a plaything
| where games and pointless activities could be concentrated into
| your Residential Swiss Army Knife. It seemed promising for
| awhile, when word processing and spreadsheets and databases could
| be had. But they really just needed to upskill the everyman--->
|
| If you're productive at this point, it's in spite of these
| computers, with the complexity and crossed purposes and support
| difficulties. I could probably just do 16 hour days reading
| Privacy Policies and paying an attorney to translate them.
|
| I think one end-goal of ubiquitous computing was to offload all
| those secretarial, clerking, office assistant functions onto the
| consumer. It's mind-blowing to this guy that ordinary folks could
| get anything done with paper, a copper pair, and snail mail???
|
| My father would joke at the store: "if they ask people at
| checkout whether they found everything ok, say yes, because
| otherwise they'll rearrange the store!" and it rings true with
| app development and obsolescence, because the drive to innovate
| and "improve" gives people job security, and produces patents,
| and press releases to pump your stock. And when the whole chain
| of tools/components is working this way, nobody can fight
| anymore. The App Stores seem to gloat when they've updated 23
| apps to ratchet up the "let me relearn this from scratch as I
| simultaneously need a critical-path task to get finished on time"
|
| So what are critical paths on a vehicle? It seems like so many
| "cushy first class" add-ons that increase the value-add and
| profit propositions. Perhaps it just maintains dopamine levels
| enough to cope with a car-based urban wasteland where you only
| park where you sleep.
|
| I've used so many OS. So many apps. But leveraged tiny fractions
| of them because the learning curves are insurmountable. What's
| the average Joe do with malfunctioning computers: consult a
| 12-year-old STEM student or go to Geek Squad. Eventually high
| school will just mandate the MCSE/Apple tracks because, computer
| literacy not being optional anymore, it's not clear how far an
| 18-year-old can get initiated into the mystery cults and obscure
| arcana as a Cyberspace Sorceror.
|
| So these in-vehicle computers are maximizing complexity and
| recapitulating Emacs->Operating System->Reads Mail->MMORPG in
| meatspace. When I can summon a robot to drive me around. But the
| edu-info-tainment systems in ordinary cars is nearly getting in
| our face to make the commute like another 4 hours in the office.
| Wow!
| d--b wrote:
| I take the opportunity to rant about cruise control / speed limit
| buttons, which have a much worse UX than climate control.
|
| If someone in the auto industry reads this:
|
| Can I get a button that says 50, one that says 80 and one that
| says 130. Right now, you have to hit "set" and then adjust the
| speed limit with some up and down arrows, which is really
| annoying and takes your eyes off the road.
|
| 99% of the time I need 50/80/130. Yes, those are French speed
| limits, so if you prefer, you do 1/2/3 where you can set the 3
| speeds in the parameters.
|
| Or at the very least, make the arrows adjust the speed in 5kph
| increments.
| Hackbraten wrote:
| > so if you prefer, you do 1/2/3 where you can set the 3 speeds
| in the parameters.
|
| Please don't do this. Presets can be super difficult to
| understand. Configuring them can feel overwhelming, and you
| can't verify your presets easily while the vehicle is stopped.
|
| > Or at the very least, make the arrows adjust the speed in
| 5kph increments.
|
| Does pressing and holding the arrow not do that for you? I
| remember (before I went carless) that my Audi used to do 10kph
| increments, displaying the target speed in the HUD, when I
| pressed and held the lever.
| PetitPrince wrote:
| > Does pressing and holding the arrow not do that for you? I
| remember (before I went carless) that my Audi used to do
| 10kph increments, displaying the target speed in the HUD,
| when I pressed and held the lever.
|
| IIRC Gen 2 Priuses only incremented the speed by 1.604km/h
| (yes, that 1mi/h, go figure why they didn't adjust for the
| rest of the world).
|
| But you're right that most of the time it's adjustable by
| holding the arrows (I've tried Peugeot, Opel, Hyundai).
| d--b wrote:
| When you keep the button pressed, it will add 5kph per second
| you press it or so. This is really the worst, cause I can't
| keep my eyes on that stuff for several seconds, so I always
| end up overshooting, and fiddling with the buttons way more
| than what's safe.
| PetitPrince wrote:
| For me there's two additional preset :
|
| * 100: happens during construction work on the motorway, and
| also for some segment of the motorway whose speed limit is
| dynamically managed depending on traffic
|
| * 110: during long(ish) distance trip (incidentally, to
| Southern France), I drive at 110 to save some battery for my EV
|
| At this point having cruise control working the way it works
| now is probably less complex than 5 presets (I agree that
| having to adjust the speed km-by-km sounds painful though).
| rramadass wrote:
| Related: There is a domain of study named _Cyber-Physical
| Systems_
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyber%E2%80%93physical_system)
| which is basically a inter-disciplinary approach combining
| mathematical theory, physical sensors/actuators/I/O devices,
| network communication and software architectures. I used to think
| it was just a buzzword for Embedded Systems but it is actually a
| distinct holistic view of looking at the whole entangled system.
|
| This free book _Introduction to Embedded Systems - A Cyber-
| Physical Systems Approach_ by Lee & Seshia gives a pretty good
| overview - https://ptolemy.berkeley.edu/books/leeseshia/
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| Ah yes. A control with a little, densely detailed screen on that
| your hand totally covers when using it. This type of control is
| investigated by design teams at auto companies and the sensible
| ones rarely take it forward as, while they look cool, when used
| in a vehicle they are more distracting than touch screens.
| gxs wrote:
| This is just one of those situations where some people can ruin
| things for others
|
| A significant number of people prefer something that looks cool
| over actual usability
|
| Enough that car companies will put out something that looks
| cool even if they know usability isn't great. They aren't dumb,
| they just build what sales
|
| Whenever we did ux research for our product, this would come up
| over and over. Users would always pick designs that looked
| cooler even when we made them bad on purpose to be sure
|
| Just is what it is. Of course, it's possible to build something
| that looks cool AND has good ux, but this is actually hard and
| ain't nobody got time for that.
| CraigJPerry wrote:
| My wife's new car[1] has the worst climate controls on the
| market. Just so you know this isn't hyperbole:
| - the touch controls are blacked out at night, no backlight, no
| ambient light touches the black touch controls surface, the
| temperature control is hidden from occupants at night -
| Everything except temperature can only be accessed via the
| infotainment screen HOWEVER nothing can be accessed from any of
| the default/ambient screens, you must always first go into the
| HVAC screen and then select your options - the car would
| rather that you don't operate HVAC in terms of temperature, fan
| speed and choice of vents to enable, instead defaulting to a
| "helpful" screen which offers around 8 fairly indistinguishable
| settings like "warm my feet"
|
| However, I think it's the best HVAC I've experienced in any car.
|
| WHAT?!?!!
|
| Turns out I value instant heat above all else, all previous cars
| have taken a mile or two to begin producing warmth. This (thanks
| to being an EV) just instantly starts blasting 5kw of heat into
| the cabin. Amazing.
|
| So I still hate the controls but I wouldn't give up instant
| heating to fix them. Obviously I'd rather have instant heating
| AND sane controls. I just never knew what i valued as a user
| before, I found it interesting.
|
| [1] VW ID Buzz
| oalae5niMiel7qu wrote:
| >I created an automated system controlled by a temperature dial.
| This, in turn, determines the fan speed and seat heating. If the
| cabin temperature deviates significantly from the set
| temperature, the system will increase the fan speed and seat
| heating or cooling accordingly.
|
| Oh, god. It just keeps getting worse. I don't want a fake knob
| that simulates a real one except it ignores me and decides the
| fan speed, blend door position, and probably the recirculation
| door on its own (allowing only a temporary override). I want a
| fan dial that is electrically connected to the fan, such that the
| position of the dial directly controls the voltage being sent
| into the fan motor, with no computer or robotics in between. In
| other words, a step switch. And I want a slider that is
| mechanically connected to the blend door for controlling
| temperature, again, with no computer or robotics in between. And
| the same for the recirculation door.
| sitkack wrote:
| The 1989 Toyota Corolla had the best climate control block of any
| car I have ever owned.
|
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/387701094464
|
| It has detents, so you can tell when you are moving it. Every
| button is different, the entire thing can be used without ever
| setting eyes on it.
|
| The best part is no weird modal lockouts between external air and
| recirculation.
| GrumpyNl wrote:
| I applaud the work and thoughts the author put in this system,
| but for me it just demonstrates why all these complex digital
| controls fail. I have a older mercedes, my seat heating has one
| knob, 3 settings, high, low, off. Those buttons, i can find them
| blindfolded.
| batushka5 wrote:
| Reading this feels living through new dark age of Human-computer
| interaction (HCI). As and oldschool engineer, I was though HCI in
| year 2008. How to place and calculate controls, heatpaths, click
| to action counts, colors, where to use what... And all this
| accumulated knowledge went down the drain (even in military!).
| Now rediscovered like some lost art.
| bufferout wrote:
| Surely the pinnacle of design here would simply be two buttons:
| "I'm too hot" and "I'm too cold" (assuming you couldn't somehow
| automatically measure that state e.g. contactless thermometers).
|
| All the complexity of deciding resulting target temperature and
| fan speed is work that an elegant and intelligent system should
| then perform for the end user. If it can't be determined
| automatically, try harder or add more controls.
| d1sxeyes wrote:
| One of my favourite dash controls ever was the Saab "Night" mode.
| Very simple, one press and all of the backlight illumination was
| turned off except for the absolutely critical controls (speed,
| etc.).
|
| Super useful for reducing distractions while driving at night.
| Most of the night driving I do today is polluted by light
| splashing off a central LED on the main console, or dynamic
| instrumentation on the dash itself. Match that with the blinding
| headlights manufacturers are wont to put in nowadays and it makes
| for a much more fatiguing night time driving experience.
|
| I do wonder if it increased the risk of falling asleep at the
| wheel, but I have no doubt that it improved night vision overall.
| MontgomeryPi2 wrote:
| ...and the Saab cup holder. Not a control per se but always
| fascinates the odd passenger.
| https://www.youtube.com/shorts/tjVN6p8VkPM
| d1sxeyes wrote:
| Ahhh memories!
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| In my old Honda I removed every single dash light except for
| the clock and radio screen. Even the speedo/tach lights
| (driving stick makes to much easier to just "feel" your speed).
| Total bliss driving at night.
| vachina wrote:
| A good control interface is an interface that you're used to.
|
| The best kind of control interface is no interface, a set and
| forget a/c that has it all figured out; you just switch on the
| car and you'll always feel comfortable.
| aa-jv wrote:
| I work in the pro audio world, and have had many opportunities
| over the years to participate in the design review process for
| multiple synthesizer musical instruments.
|
| One of the most common issues that gets people riled up is Fitts
| Law:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts%27s_law
|
| It seems that many synth UI designers have small, thin, bony
| fingers, and overlook the issues that comes from having knobs
| placed too close together. They like to design tight, compact,
| "valuable looking" knob panels, and I like to inform them that
| these designs are nonsense and some consideration should be given
| to the spacing of things.
|
| This has an impact on the end user with fat fingers, since moving
| one knob should not provide the opportunity to accidentally
| 'bump' or 'jog' another adjacent knob - there simply has to be
| space to allow for market finger types.
|
| (In spite of the fact that these are mostly German designers,
| asking them to review their designs in the context of automative
| controls, has been a herculean effort.)
|
| So one of my favourite toys in my arsenal when confronted with a
| new, fresh-faced designer full of impactful and dense design
| ideas, is an Arduino with an LCD display attached to a
| breadboard, and 4 movable knobs which can be placed in an
| approximation of the design. I wrote a tool that displays a UI
| with a fine-tune parameter, and whenever I get a chance I lay out
| the knobs using the designers intended dimensions, and ask them
| to fine-tune the parameter.
|
| If they can do it one-handed without bumping other knobs (and
| thus triggering the :P emoji and siren noise), they get a pass
| and a check-mark on their design doc.
|
| If, however, their dimensions make it impossible to move only a
| single knob, they get a little :P mark on their review documents,
| and my designer-killer tool gets put back in the drawer for
| another day.
|
| I will have to review this toy for the context of display-in-
| control style interfaces in the future, it seems ..
| nbzso wrote:
| Brilliant. I need this thing for my computer. Kensington, are you
| seeing this? It is time to work on trackball wheel of Kensington
| Expert. We want haptic feedback with electric motor. One of my
| classic cars is a Mercedes CLK 200 Kompressor from 2000. The
| highest quality physical controls for this class. Joy to operate.
| We need this back.
| sklargh wrote:
| A bit late but for those of you who still really like physical
| controls , want a family capable vehicle (I've done 3 nights with
| two under five) and something off the beaten path it's hard to go
| wrong with the Audi A4 allroad wagon. Absolutely fantastic
| suspension and pretty quick for a family wagon. Midrange package
| gets you adaptive cruise control and all the other safety stuff.
| Mild hybrid.
| cormorant wrote:
| Not for long. Next model year it's being replaced by this:
| https://cdn.motor1.com/images/mgl/L3kENm/s1/audi-a5-avant-20...
| (via:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Audi/comments/1ggr4ox/does_the_2025...
| )
| queuebert wrote:
| The blog writer's final design is basically what Ford uses in the
| F-series these days. But Ford's dials have a couple of functions
| that I didn't see mentioned. First, when you turn the temperature
| dial all the way hot and push hard into the stop, it turns on max
| defrost, and all the way cold and push is max A/C. Also, if the
| system is off, it turns on when you turn either dial. The dials
| are also large and rubbery for gripping with dirty hands or with
| gloves on, something a lot of manufacturers seem to ignore.
| dupays wrote:
| A pet peeve of mine is that climate controls shouldn't just have
| a single temperature setting but an acceptable range. In winter
| 18(c) is quite acceptable. In summer it's too cold. Ideally I'd
| set a temp range of 18-22(c). If the temp goes outside that the
| AC should move it back within range.
| martythemaniak wrote:
| Honest question here - do people actually constantly fiddle with
| climate knobs? I honestly don't understand the whole "knobs are
| important because I can change without looking", I get it, but
| are you actually doing this?
|
| I've had a Tesla for many years now, the temp is set to 21C and I
| don't miss knobs because I don't change this. I prewarm/cool the
| car from the app so I never enter a hot or cold car, only a 21C
| car. Occasionally (ie a dozen times a year) I'll change the temp
| for some odd reason, but rarely while the car is moving. Seat and
| steering wheel are also set to auto. I just don't think about the
| temp in my car, but climate knobs seem like a huge sticking point
| to lots of people?
| jollyjerry wrote:
| Appreciate the post and the discussion around it. As a car
| enthusiast, I enjoyed reading the specific implementations out in
| the wild today.
|
| What stood out in the article was the attention paid to designing
| intuitive haptics. What our bodies expect in feedback when we
| turn a weighted dial. Doing it in software allows controlling
| multiple things, but I would still prefer a dumb dial per
| function, placed in close proximity to where the function acts.
| Seat controls near seats, climate controls near vents.
| Personalization stuffed into the screen and menus and profiles.
|
| I did not think I would like auto climate controls until I lived
| with one. Even then, I would fiddle with it because I didn't like
| the sudden high initial fan speed until I got used to it.
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