[HN Gopher] Postmortem: The singular design of Namco's Katamari ...
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Postmortem: The singular design of Namco's Katamari Damacy (2004)
Author : danso
Score : 163 points
Date : 2025-02-11 17:34 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.gamedeveloper.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.gamedeveloper.com)
| dang wrote:
| Related. Others?
|
| _He created the Katamari games, but they're rolling on without
| him_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37374489 - Sept 2023
| (67 comments)
|
| _Keita Takahashi Created the Katamari Games, but They're Rolling
| on Without Him_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36950382 -
| July 2023 (4 comments)
|
| _Katamari Hack (2011)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33381345 - Oct 2022 (37
| comments)
|
| _Katamari Christmassy (2019)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25783731 - Jan 2021 (1
| comment)
|
| _Keita Takahashi (creator of Katamari) joins Glitch_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2748128 - July 2011 (2
| comments)
|
| _Katamari Hack_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2486038 -
| April 2011 (5 comments)
|
| _Turn any page into Katamari Damacy_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2318076 - March 2011 (33
| comments)
|
| _Life Size Katamari_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=625489 - May 2009 (3
| comments)
| orbital-decay wrote:
| _> Originally, I wanted to eliminate the time limit and let the
| player simply roll the katamari to make it bigger. But, I couldn
| 't figure out how to make the game fun without a time limit_
|
| Better level design (than in the original Katamari Damacy) is the
| answer. See Carmageddon as an example. Despite having a time
| limit and technically being in a race against other drivers, you
| can just go off course and explore the level, picking time
| bonuses as you do that. It's fun because the levels are full of
| secret areas and there's always something to explore. The other
| drivers are _just dumb enough_ to not be a problem, and will also
| go off course if you do. Or you can play it as a racing game and
| ignore all that, no problem.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| As they wrote in the manual, you can win the race by being the
| fastest across the finish line, but that's not really the
| point...
| spondylosaurus wrote:
| I think the hurdle with Katamari is that as the katamari gets
| bigger, smaller objects load out of the game, and eventually
| there's just less interesting stuff to see. When you're rolling
| around in someone's house, you get a lot of personality and
| charm, but when you get bigger than a skyscraper most of the
| stuff you see is just generic landmasses and foliage. At least
| Jumboman usually shows up eventually.
| danso wrote:
| The sequel introduced a couple of non-time-limited challenges,
| including: make the biggest katamari with just 50 objects, and
| make a katamari that's exactly 50cm.
|
| I think the time limits worked fine for adding challenge to the
| game -- IIRC the first game had an eternal level whereas the
| 2nd game's longest level was 18min, but that was long enough to
| swallow most of the earth if you were good enough. I loved the
| novelty levels where the goal was something different than
| "biggest katamari" -- e.g. roll the most expensive or calorie-
| dense katamaris, which really let you appreciate the detail and
| variety of objects that were in the world
| lifthrasiir wrote:
| Indeed, the sequel was really a huge step up from the
| original _Katamari Damacy_ in many ways to me, as who have
| played all available console games in the series. (Nowadays I
| play in Steam.) Most expensive katamaries are particularly
| fun because you have much less visual cues than other games,
| but once you 've immersed yourself into the world, you will
| see likely places to roam around.
|
| > IIRC the first game had an eternal level whereas the 2nd
| game's longest level was 18min.
|
| For the record, a recent remastered version for PC does have
| eternal levels.
| whywhywhywhy wrote:
| >the 2nd game's longest level was 18min, but that was long
| enough to swallow most of the earth
|
| It went past the earth and you eventually swallowed up
| planets, stars etc if you didn't know. Really cool for the
| hardware.
| rideontime wrote:
| You may be thinking of the sequel, We Love Katamari, where
| after completing the individual levels, you would roll up
| the planets and stars you created in order to roll up the
| Sun.
| scelerat wrote:
| I liked this quote:
|
| _> I worked on the basic concept on my own. I found that if I
| started to listen to others, the concept tended to become diluted
| and unfocused. However, once the basic concept was decided, it
| was helpful to have open discussions with the team. There were
| many more ideas that were not used in the game, but I still got
| something out of all the different ideas that were brought up
| even if I didn 't use them as they were presented._
| jmcgough wrote:
| Keita Takahashi is such an odd guy. Really creative and
| approaches games from a very different perspective than a lot of
| other creators, but Katamari Damacy was such a flash in the pan
| for him. His later endeavors have been equally if not more
| bizarre, without fun gameplay mechanics to back them up.
| loa_in_ wrote:
| It bet it is fun to design!
| gyomu wrote:
| There's lots of similar examples in other creative fields -
| artists who have one piece of work that does tremendously well,
| but everything else they make is only noticed by their more
| dedicated fans.
|
| My interpretation is that it's because they make the art for
| them, not for the audience. In a sense they got lucky that one
| piece of their work found itself at the right confluence of
| factors to blow up like it did, because that's not something
| you can really control or guarantee, unless you play it
| extremely safe (which is why all the big game/movie studios
| produce sequel after sequel, or old rockstars will just keep
| performing their classics).
|
| There's an interview with Jon Blow I heard recently that stuck
| with me, where he says that he could probably have made lots of
| money making Braid 2 or The Witness 2, but that it just wasn't
| interesting to him.
|
| Willingly leaving money on the table, now that's the mark of an
| artist.
| amiga386 wrote:
| > he could probably have made lots of money making Braid 2 or
| The Witness 2
|
| If you're wanting more of _The Witness_ you can find it in
| childrens puzzles books and the backs of cereal boxes. See
| also _The Looker_ :
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/1985690/The_Looker/
| gyomu wrote:
| This is a fun parody but just in case you're being earnest
| - that's completely missing the point. Similar to saying
| "if you want more of $RPG just open a spreadsheet and
| slowly make arbitrary numbers go up".
| djmips wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progress_Quest
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| the enemies it came up with were hilarious. my fav being
| the porn elemental
| mattbee wrote:
| You snark, sir, but can I also find artistry and meaning
| equal to _The Witness_ on the back of a cereal box?
| amiga386 wrote:
| I'm not sure Jonathan Blow, visionary video game
| developer and appearer in many documentaries on the video
| game industry, would appreciate my answer. But in my
| view: yes. Especially Rice Krispies.
| adamrezich wrote:
| If you're _actually_ looking for more of The Witness, there
| 's
|
| - Taiji, which is a very The Witness- _inspired_ 2D
| exploration /puzzle game
| https://store.steampowered.com/app/1141580/Taiji/
|
| - Fidel Rescue Dungeon (which I only just learned of and
| haven't yet played), which is The Witness puzzles, but
| dressed up as a roguelike https://store.steampowered.com/ap
| p/573170/Fidel_Dungeon_Resc...
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| _Really_? I'm not one to defend Jonathan Blow The
| Personality (TM), but the game masterfully weaves the
| puzzle aspects into the adventuring aspects of the game,
| and encourages you to expand your perspective throughout.
| The sort of experience I had playing that game made me wish
| more games were like that (Fez being another notable
| example).
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| > and of the people who were interested in Katamari, I asked the
| ones who I thought were the coolest to join the team
|
| Moment of silence for the death of "culture fit" in companies. I
| know it was not all great and warped hiring in ways that were
| problematic but there's something to be said for working on a
| project with other people who you know will just "get it."
| TehCorwiz wrote:
| In my experience "culture fit" is extolled by executes as an
| excuse for selecting "compliant" employees who won't question
| their BS.
| darkerside wrote:
| That's basically what parent poster said, with the most
| negative possible spin. Yeah, maybe the leader of the company
| doesn't want to put up with argumentative bullshit, and just
| wants to do cool and fun stuff with people who are excited to
| do it.
| djmips wrote:
| I was exited once for being a bad culture fit where I had
| questioned and organized against the bullying of employees to
| work for free on their stat holiday, and it was labor day for
| crying out loud.
| andreasmetsala wrote:
| In a way you were a bad culture fit even if that's not a
| culture anyone should want to fit.
| gyomu wrote:
| No one's preventing you from hiring just people you get along
| with/personally like when you're a tiny company.
|
| When you start becoming a big tech company whose products have
| the power to bend entire societies though, that's when people
| typically start calling for more accountability in hiring
| practices.
| EfficientDude wrote:
| An amazing game series, truly a standout for 'different' even
| until today. Big studios don't take risks, it's up to today's
| indie scene to give us something different.
| bane wrote:
| Absolutely amazing game. In my personal circle, literally
| everybody and their family had either played the game or at the
| least knew the main themes of the music. IIR it was also a bit
| cheaper than many other games.
|
| I personally think the bizarre setting, art design, and great
| soundtrack (perhaps a top-3 ever in gaming) did a lot to overcome
| a lot of the awkwardness of the gameplay. It was an experience
| you _wanted_ to have, it was original, and the concept was
| _almost_ 80 's arcade pure. The ambience provided the reason to
| want to be there.
|
| If you were to reframe the game without those things, I'm _not_
| entirely sure it holds up as well.
|
| But 20+ years later I can walk into a room with my friends, start
| whistling the theme and everybody will join in.
|
| What a joyful game.
| y33t wrote:
| Re: the soundtrack, I never played KD until about two or three
| console generations after it originally came out, but I already
| knew most of the soundtrack. I'm not even sure how that
| happens.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| All of my college roommates fall into your category. The
| music is catchy and distinctive. It'll stick with you even if
| you hear it on the TV in the background.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| seconding the soundtrack. it's weird and entertaining. all of
| the songs are about rolling and rolling things up.
|
| my fav has to be the lounge singer track, or maybe the one with
| a bunch of kids singing.
| ggm wrote:
| I've mentioned on threads about Katamari Damacy before, that I
| sat on a train in Tokyo around 2006 timeframe and watched a guy
| play on a PSP. The game was like Katamri in concept, but was
| about more fluid, biological accretion logic. You controlled an
| amoeba, and engulfed other objects to grow, floating around the
| cave.
|
| It was like looking at a 1960s oil bath light show. As the layers
| of colour moved over each other, and fused and split
|
| With no major outcome depending on it, I've always wanted to know
| what the game was. Very abstracted. Simple goal, simple controls.
| There must have been more to it I didn't see (adversarial play of
| some kind, threats and risks)
| chunkycapybara wrote:
| Sounds like flOw
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| Yeah, I remember this one (flOw), played it on PS3, I think.
| It's a very cool game. There's an eeriness about it, and
| there's definitely something resembling a narrative. It was
| always kind of thrilling to "level up" (quite literally, since
| you're moving between scale planes in the game), and what kinds
| of creatures you'd encounter at the next level. They would have
| new mechanics and shapes that you kind of had to figure out by
| evolving your play style.
|
| Sony can really put out some amazing first (second?) party
| stuff when they want to, which makes me wonder why they don't
| do it more often.
| world2vec wrote:
| Just reading the game's name brings the soundtrack in my head.
| sagacity wrote:
| Replayed it literally this weekend with a friend who never played
| it before. Still works beautifully and is a ton (ball) of fun.
|
| The soundtrack is its killer feature and I'm glad to be able to
| read a bit more about the background.
| dev0p wrote:
| > We were very serious when creating the music. Most game music
| nowadays is pretty forgettable. I wanted to create a soundtrack
| that would stick in players' heads, sort of like an evil curse.
|
| That explains a lot, and boy did they succeed. I love them, Some
| songs are such earworms that I dread hearing anything from the
| Katamari OST because _they 'll stick for __DAYS___.
| cotti wrote:
| Katamaritaino is up there with Clash On The Big Bridge and Flow
| as best songs that happened to be made for games.
|
| The OST for the first two games, how they stick (ha!) well
| together, and how WLK managed to be a perfect blend of paying
| homage to the first game (Scorching Savanna!) _and_ being a solid
| improvement on it should be studied.
|
| It's striking to me how humble Takahashi-sensei is regarding the
| shortcomings he perceives in the first game as well. I can see
| them much better dealt with in We Love Katamari, but I feel like
| some of them aren't that bad as a player who picks it to play
| every once in a while. In turn, it makes me appreciate the
| holistic and honest view he has for such an original game.
| NickC25 wrote:
| Fantastic game.
|
| Shame that no developer takes risks like this anymore, the whole
| concept was just so foreign, so strange, yet it worked.
| dclowd9901 wrote:
| It seems like the kind of idea you might just "step over" as
| being too simplistic. I wish I had the time and energy to just
| explore simple ideas like this to see if I could create a
| compelling game or creation out of them. I think it takes a
| child's creativity, earnestness and positivity in some
| respects, and I'm afraid to say I'm a bit down on the world at
| the moment.
| Sohcahtoa82 wrote:
| If you only consider AAA studios, then yeah, you're right. But
| step into the Indie game world and there are a lot of new
| unique concepts being done.
|
| Balatro, Baba Is You, Superhot, Superliminal, and Slay the
| Spire come to mind immediately.
| hx8 wrote:
| > I wish we could have engendered the feeling of "Wow, I've
| gotten so big," a bit more effectively during gameplay.
|
| Later releases of the game directly address this concern. I
| wonder how far away game engine technology is from keeping track
| of every single item in the ball, so the scaling is more smooth,
| and the items in the ball have a direct impact on how the ball
| rolls.
| bentt wrote:
| It's entirely possible, technically. The problems become more
| about design and what's fun.
|
| If you want to see state of the art in physics and collision,
| check out Dennis Gustafsson's work. He created the game
| Teardown.
|
| https://x.com/voxagonlabs
| criddell wrote:
| This is a game for which I would love some DLC. If I could buy
| level packs, I'd own them all... The basic games are great, I
| just want more!
| sumtechguy wrote:
| The 360 version had that. I didn't care much for it as it felt
| like I only had part of a game.
| telesilla wrote:
| Does anyone else remember the js bookmarlet? You clicked on a
| button and all the html pieces started falling. I loved showing
| it to friends who were also familiar with the game, or not!
|
| I'm not sure if it was this one exactly but close enough.
|
| http://kathack.com/
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(page generated 2025-02-12 23:01 UTC)