[HN Gopher] Waydroid - Android in a Linux container
___________________________________________________________________
Waydroid - Android in a Linux container
Author : birdculture
Score : 492 points
Date : 2025-02-02 19:29 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (waydro.id)
(TXT) w3m dump (waydro.id)
| gnabgib wrote:
| Popular in 2021 (684 points, 207 comments)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28616985
| nmstoker wrote:
| Yes, skimming the repo on GitHub it looks like it has gone off
| the boil distinctly since early 2024. Shame as it looks
| impressive.
| tedk-42 wrote:
| Money became scarce and projects became harder to maintain
| and resource
| bsimpson wrote:
| Surprised to see this on the frontpage - it's a well known piece
| of software.
|
| It's unfortunate that there are no Google-vended images (e.g. the
| generic system image) that run on Waydroid. Typing my password
| into random ROMs from the internet sketches me out.
|
| https://source.android.com/docs/core/tests/vts/gsi
| Onavo wrote:
| Google provides one that runs in Docker
| 77pt77 wrote:
| Where?
| Onavo wrote:
| https://github.com/google/android-
| cuttlefish/tree/main/docke...
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| I wouldn't say it runs a "random ROM from the internet" -
| LineageOS is a very well-established project and is fully FOSS
| (free and open source software) except for firmware necessary
| for specific devices. It is the natural choice for any project,
| such as Waydroid, that requires good community support and
| ongoing availability.
|
| Over a number of years, Google have progressively removed many
| of the original parts of AOSP (the FOSS foundation upon which
| Android is based), which means that alternative components have
| to be developed by projects like LineageOS. In spite of this, I
| suspect that LineageOS makes fewer modifications to AOSP than
| most phone vendors do, including Google themselves!
| westurner wrote:
| Just had a conversation about this on a waydroid github
| issue. The LineageOS X86 image is outdated compared to also
| open source Bliss OS' Android 12.
|
| /? Android play store APK GitHub actions
|
| It looks like Android Emulator has the most current version
| of Android that will run on x86?
| surajrmal wrote:
| Would you hire a well known electrician who was not bonded
| and insured? Sometimes it's nice to know there is more than
| blind trust.
| saagarjha wrote:
| Would you hire Electroboom?
| kadoban wrote:
| Probably not, he might zap himself for a gag and scare
| the crap out of me.
| lyu07282 wrote:
| and then he teaches you about safety around a thousand
| times more effectively afterward <3
| 123pie123 wrote:
| It's FOSS, you're more than welcome to inspect the code
| yourself
| Klonoar wrote:
| They may not want to do that, just like they may not want
| to fix their own electrical issues.
|
| You're sidestepping their point of professionalism and
| attempting to shove in something else.
| fsflover wrote:
| The FLOSS license allows you to rely on the community for
| the verification.
| Klonoar wrote:
| You are, once again, sidestepping their point.
|
| They are saying they want a verified authority, not "the
| community".
| rollcat wrote:
| You're already running this on top of Linux. You're
| already relying on community support, unless you got
| scammed by Canonical[1] or RedHat^W IBM[2].
|
| [1]: https://utcc.utoronto.ca/~cks/space/blog/linux/Ubunt
| u2404Bpf...
|
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dehomag
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| This isn't about support, this is about trusting the
| download.
|
| If I get Ubuntu or Debian or download the mainline
| kernel, I'm trusting specific entities. That's very
| different from a vague idea that it's open source and
| hopefully someone checked if this particular random guy
| on github is putting out legitimate builds.
| bsimpson wrote:
| As I recall, studies have looked into this, and the
| bystander effect in open source is very real.
|
| "You can view the source on GitHub" is very different
| than "A knowledgable person has audited the millions of
| lines of source code and confirmed that nobody added
| anything shady or stupid." People often don't take the
| time to comprehend all the source of the things they
| depend on, especially for large dependencies and/or
| prototyping-scale projects.
| pessimizer wrote:
| > the bystander effect in open source is very real.
|
| Outside of open source, it was a NYT excuse for the NYPD
| failing to save Kitty Genovese. The number of witnesses
| was greatly exaggerated, and the police _were_ called at
| least once.
|
| I don't think you mean to refer to the bystander effect,
| because the bystander effect says that the likelihood of
| intervention goes _down_ as the number of bystanders goes
| up. You don 't seem to be arguing that people are less
| likely to look at the source because the source is
| available to more people. More just claiming that people
| don't look at the source as often as you would like? That
| open source isn't always perfectly bug and backdoor free?
| Because I don't know if:
|
| > "A knowledgable person has audited the millions of
| lines of source code and confirmed that nobody added
| anything shady or stupid."
|
| Has been claimed about many large pieces of software,
| proprietary or not.
| Klonoar wrote:
| Disregarding the contributions of some of the biggest
| players in Linux/OSS has me immediately disregarding your
| comment.
|
| You can for sure like whatever homegrown community Linux
| distro you want. It doesn't remove the work those players
| have done. :)
| idiotsecant wrote:
| Exactly what 'authority' would be sufficient here?
| Klonoar wrote:
| That's for OP to chime in on. I'm just pointing out that
| the person I'm responding to is missing the point of OPs
| post entirely.
| alexvitkov wrote:
| Alright, just give me 5 minutes to quickly inspect the
| likely over 100,000,000 lines of code that either go
| directly into a ROM or are part of the build tooling, and
| reverse engineer however many binary blobs are involved
| in the process.
|
| The "you can just read the code" mindset is completely
| unrealistic, even for software that's orders of
| magnitudes smaller. If the issue at hand is entering my
| Google password, I'd rather do it in a ROM built by
| Google.
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| Let's assume you have a ROM straight from Google, and
| they've actually given you some meaningful promise to
| support it. How exactly are you running it? Because I'm
| quite confident that waydroid isn't "bonded and insured",
| and I rather doubt you're running on top of an operating
| system that is. So it seems like an odd sticking point.
| realusername wrote:
| There's no phone on earth which runs AOSP so it's the same
| on a real phone, you put a blind trust on the phone
| manufacturer.
| lotharcable2 wrote:
| What software are you using that has a parent company that
| pays out damages to you if it fails?
|
| Because that is the purpose of 'bonded and insured'.
|
| I haven't looked at every EULA and license of every piece
| of software I use, but I bet that "without warranty"
| clauses are part of every single one of them.
| powersnail wrote:
| Different industries have different standard procedures. A
| huge portion of the world's internet relies on FOSS
| software, and none of those are insured.
|
| Community reputation is the current _de facto_ standard for
| consumer-facing software, even for stuff sold by big
| corporations. There's not much else to rely on.
| Wowfunhappy wrote:
| FYI, Firefox has also been on the front page before, it's
| allowed. :)
| ulrikrasmussen wrote:
| Is it random though? LineageOS is a pretty established project.
| I am generally more wary of typing any personal information
| into an image vended by Google because it is their primary,
| core business model to collect my data and show me ads.
| ignoramous wrote:
| Isn't GSI (Project Treble) effectively now a way for Google to
| force deprecate the vendor bits (ex: HAL/vendor drivers)?
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32116819
| buyucu wrote:
| To be honest I trust LineageOS more than I trust any Google-
| vended image.
| pizzalife wrote:
| Since Binder is a kernel feature, how do they get it to work?
| homebrewer wrote:
| You're expected to install a kernel that has the module, or
| build it yourself. I use linux-zen which ships binder out of
| the box.
| yonatan8070 wrote:
| Accrding to the Arch Wiki, it uses the kernel modules. Have a
| look at section 1.4 here:
| https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Waydroid
| refulgentis wrote:
| written 6 years ago: "The binder kernel driver has been present
| in the upstream Linux kernel for quite a while now."
|
| https://brauner.io/2019/01/09/android-binderfs.html
| jeroenhd wrote:
| While it's part of upstream Linux, many kernels come with it
| disabled because it has a long history of security issues and
| basically nothing but Android uses it.
|
| It also liked to trigger kernel panics for me on Ubuntu
| 22.04, but that could be a weird hardware issue.
| refulgentis wrote:
| Ah, interesting...man, software is fun. I wouldn't have
| guessed in a million years that it _could_ cause panics as
| an optional component, like, it shouldn 't be running code
| unless it is being used, and it shouldn't be called because
| it isn't mandatory in the kernel.
|
| I guess I'm still grokking software complexity, Linux, and
| how much work an OS is truly is, 25 years after I built my
| first Linux box...because in another sense, of _course_
| that could happen.
| Muromec wrote:
| What does this binder thing even do? I get it's an IPC
| something, but why does android need it's own special kernel-
| level IPC?
| teraflop wrote:
| There's some general information about it here:
| https://elinux.org/Android_Binder
|
| A binder transaction behaves sort of like a syscall, in the
| sense that a client process can immediately, _synchronously_
| transfer control to a server thread, rather than just
| enqueueing a message to be processed whenever the server gets
| around to it.
|
| This enables Android to separate many of its components into
| different processes (at different privilege levels), and use
| binder for RPCs that are on the "critical path" for user
| interaction, without incurring impractical amounts of
| overhead or latency.
| esprehn wrote:
| Wikipedia has a good explanation of Binder and the history
| which goes way back to Be OS.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenBinder
|
| It's more like a micro services framework that abstracts
| threads and processes.
|
| Fuchsia takes the approach to the conclusion and powers the
| entire OS through a similar system:
|
| https://fuchsia.dev/fuchsia-src/concepts/fidl/overview
| tuananh wrote:
| easiest way is to use zen kernel because it's already baked in.
| WhyNotHugo wrote:
| Your host kernel needs to have binderfs.
| buyucu wrote:
| Binder has been on the mainline Linux kernel for a long long
| time.
| sweeter wrote:
| What Im surprised about is that no one has abstracted this out so
| you can run multiple Android containers under LXC. With Waydroid,
| you have one image. From what I can see they use a custom Linux
| kernel with a lot of patches and I wasn't really able to get a
| handle on it, but the LXC interface stuff is pretty simple.
| bean-weevil wrote:
| Waydroid uses the host kernel.
| jaidan wrote:
| This was the basis of how FuriLabs managed to get such good
| Android app integration. Obviously they've forked it [0] and
| heavily modified it, but the user experience they've created with
| this to allow Android apps on a Linux phone has been great.
|
| [0] https://github.com/FuriLabs/waydroid
| GranPC wrote:
| Hi, Jesus from FuriLabs here! We're just winding down from
| FOSDEM but happy to answer any questions & feedback :)
| moondev wrote:
| I'm interested in why the linked implementation is different
| or enhanced. There is nothing on the readme and I guess I
| would need to track down a summary of the talk
| GranPC wrote:
| Waydroid is currently focusing on desktop usage, whereas
| our fork focuses around usability improvements for the
| mobile use case specifically. There are a lot of small
| things that all come together - stuff like NFC passthrough,
| power efficiency optimizations, MPRIS support, etc. It'd be
| hard to condense everything into a small explanation, but
| it's basically been a matter of polishing rough edges.
| Vinnl wrote:
| Will that stuff end up upstream at some point, and if
| not, where's the bottleneck?
| OsrsNeedsf2P wrote:
| What's the difference between FuriLabs and all the other
| Linux phones that have 1 hour of battery life and no app
| support?
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > all the other Linux phones that have 1 hour of battery
| life and no app support?
|
| ... Which phones would that be? Even the original pinephone
| exceeds an hour and has a pretty good collection of apps
| even without compatibility layers.
| jaidan wrote:
| FLX1 is fast. It's useful. It has regular updates that
| improve experience. Battery lasts 1.5 days with moderate
| usage.
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| Indeed; I have an original PinePhone (convergence
| edition) and the battery is not half bad while you are
| using it. I think the main issue has been poor software
| support for wake-from-suspend, which prevented the phone
| from saving power when not in use. I believe that these
| issues have been largely resolved in the latest versions
| of PostmarketOS, Mobian etc.
| Arnavion wrote:
| FYI, going to suspend / receiving calls during suspend /
| waking from suspend haven't been a general problem on the
| (non-Pro) PinePhone since 2021. You just have to make
| sure to switch to the FOSS modem firmware, and
| occasionally there are regressions (the most recent one
| being https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/mobile-
| broadband/ModemManager... ).
| stonogo wrote:
| FuriLabs' phone runs libhybris (OEM android kernel) instead
| of attempting a native port. Hardware enablement is
| outsourced.
| user_7832 wrote:
| My biggest question is: why haven't you guys advertised
| yourselves more? I've heard of liberem and the pinephone but
| never knew you guys had a phone? With half-decent hardware
| and actual water proofing?? I swear if I had the disposable
| cash I'd have bought one (and I hope to anyway soon).
|
| Ok, here's a more typical question: I've heard your phone
| uses halium, what exactly is it? Some kind of hardware
| abstraction layer? Some people online appear to dislike it.
| (And googling unfortunately gives very few links that aren't
| super technical.)
| Klonoar wrote:
| They've been noted in a few HN threads before, FWIW.
| GranPC wrote:
| I'd say it just boils down to... we're not great at
| marketing. We're working on it but it's hard to get the
| word out, especially since many people are dismissive of
| Linux phones after having had previous experiences with
| incomplete devices.
|
| Halium/libhybris are basically layers that allow us to use
| Android hardware drivers with a GNU/Linux userspace. Some
| Android bits run inside a container to provide support for
| peripherals. This is kinda a stop gap solution since we're
| working on native implementations and replacements for much
| of this stuff.
|
| Some people dislike it because it's not a "pure Linux
| phone". But the alternative would be to ship a device that
| can't even place calls or take pictures, so... I think it's
| a good middle ground that allows us to ship something
| useful today.
| ttkari wrote:
| Your project certainly looks very interesting! Any chance of
| another device with a smaller form factor sometime in the
| future? This one is huge :)
| beardyw wrote:
| And in the news today:
|
| https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/03/furiphone_flx1/
| Demiurge wrote:
| Does this allow the container access a hardware USB device? I
| have Mooondrop FreeDSP usb-c cable with an PEQ that only works
| with a terrible Android app, and it takes forever to change the
| EQ settings via an Android tablet I have, that has terrible touch
| screen. I wish I could just use my linux laptop to do it.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| I think it does, to the point where plugging in USB devices
| while Android has focus accidentally captures the USB device:
| https://github.com/waydroid/waydroid/issues/778
|
| If not, it's just a Linux container, so with some udev rules
| you should be able to make it work regardless.
| dchuk wrote:
| What I'd love to see is a containerized android that can be fired
| up on a Mac (using docker desktop or orbstack or whatever) that I
| can modify the docker image of to have rooted man in the middle
| proxy already setup, making it much easier to drop an Android app
| onto to observe the network traffic and api calls.
| CartwheelLinux wrote:
| If you want to do this now with little setup, run waydroid and
| then run wireshark inside the network namespace that is created
| for waydroid
|
| sudo ip netns exec <netns> wireshark
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Wireshark is nice, but for HTTPS MitM you'll need a tool like
| mitmproxy/Burp to do the proxying and either modifications to
| the system image or a Frida daemon running as root to make
| most apps trust the MitM'd certificates.
|
| To get the traffic routed right, the Wireguard option for
| mitmproxy is pretty useful in my experience. Not sure how
| well Waydroid + Android VPNs work together, though.
| feanaro wrote:
| What do you mean by the Wireguard option for mitmproxy?
|
| EDIT: Oh, look at this
| https://mitmproxy.org/posts/wireguard-mode/. TIL.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| It's a pretty neat feature! I think it's in beta but it
| works flawlessly in my experience. Sure is a lot easier
| than setting up a separate (W)LAN with iptables rules to
| force redirect traffic.
| wraptile wrote:
| There's also certificate pinning which is done by basically
| every modern android app so you often need to modify apk to
| remove that. Httptoolkit has a good blog on the process:
| https://httptoolkit.com/blog/frida-certificate-pinning/
| jeroenhd wrote:
| With root access, Frida can patch applications in memory,
| so you don't need to mess with the APK file.
|
| If root is not an option, injecting Frida into the APK
| will work (but that might break applications that verify
| signatures).
| bbogdn2 wrote:
| Not sure about the proxy setup, but redroid is basically
| android in a docker container.
| scottydelta wrote:
| Any way to do this in Mac M1? I would love to run an android
| instance on Mac docker where u can install apps and can persist
| storage.
| truncate wrote:
| I was able to run this a while ago on virtualized linux machine
| using UTM. I forgot whether I used ARM or x86 on Rosetta image,
| but UTM gallery has easy to use images for both.
| https://mac.getutm.app/gallery/
| scottydelta wrote:
| from their page:
|
| > We removed the Android pre-built images because Android
| does not run well on QEMU/UTM and created a lot of confusion.
| Advanced users can build their own Android VM from scratch
| but it is not recommended.
| mauvehaus wrote:
| I got on instagram[0] before you could post via the web _and_
| before I had a smartphone. I was able to run the app under
| android-x86 on VirtualBox.
|
| I think the hardest part of the whole setup was setting the
| screen resolution to something the ig app would run under (it
| wouldn't run in landscape mode) and getting ssh/scp running to
| move files from the computer to the vm.
|
| [0] for professional reasons. Link in profile if you're
| interested. My insta posting had been greatly reduced since I'm
| still not convinced that anyone has truly found a way to redeem
| imaginary internet points for dollars. At least not at my level
| of effort I'm willing to put into accumulating imaginary internet
| points.
| tmtvl wrote:
| On my Ubuntu phone I use Waydroid to use the WhatsApp client as
| the kung fu club I'm in uses WA to communicate. It works well
| enough, though it is quite a battery drainer.
| toasteros wrote:
| The Furiphone FLX1 makes heavy use of this and it is amazing. I
| can do most things I'd want a real android phone for (which is
| not much, admittedly). I know of people who use it for Signal and
| Spotify. Great project, and right at home on a Linux phone.
| ankurdhama wrote:
| Does this support DP alt mode on the USB-C port?
| toasteros wrote:
| No DP through the USB-C port right now, no. I believe it's
| missing from the hardware.
|
| It's a little frustrating because "Convergence" options are
| exposed in the UI.
| ekianjo wrote:
| How do you like the Furiphone FLX1? Very few reviews online...
| jaidan wrote:
| Yep. Been daily driving since September.
|
| I love it.
|
| No DP Alt mode.
| GranPC wrote:
| FWIW there are a bunch of reviews on our official website, as
| well as this exhaustive review from a community member:
| https://blog-d.luigi311.com/furilabs-flx1/
| KetoManx64 wrote:
| You guys should send our some review units to Linux tech
| youtubers. I kept searching for reviews of the phone and
| there is nothing except the 4-5 videos from your guys'
| channel, which does not instill confidence that this is a
| real project and not a scam.
| GranPC wrote:
| We have - I believe the first review will be coming out
| this week. More soon.
|
| There's a review from The Register that just came out:
| https://www.theregister.com/2025/02/03/furiphone_flx1/
| jaidan wrote:
| There's a flatpak signal that works great in FuriOS too
| Vinnl wrote:
| Isn't that the desktop app? Which is neat, but needs to be
| linked to the phone app, AFAIK.
| WD-42 wrote:
| Every time I see this I think "cool! I can run some cool Android
| app that doesn't have a Linux counterpart" and every time I fail
| to think of anything. Are there any must have Android apps out
| there?
| bowbe wrote:
| I mostly see this recommended for people who want to play
| mobile games on a Steam Deck.
| WD-42 wrote:
| Ahhh, that actually makes a lot of sense. I didn't even think
| of games. Maybe I'll use it to play Candy Crush.
| saghm wrote:
| Isn't there already a PC version of that? It always seems
| to be pinned to the Start menu of new Windows
| installations, but maybe that's also via some sort of
| Android compatibility layer
| alias_neo wrote:
| I use it for this; found out about it when I installed
| Bazzite on my ROG Ally and it came with Waydroid.
|
| The other useful feature for me is using the Android apps for
| media subscriptions that only enable offline downloads in the
| app and not in the browser so I can use them on the go.
| prmoustache wrote:
| But are there still mobile games worth playing when you have
| access to steam?
| razemio wrote:
| TFT from Riot Games would be a good example. Protected by
| Vanguard so you can not use wine. However you need an arm
| device, since they do not publish apks for x86.
| zozbot234 wrote:
| Couldn't you use qemu-user (and binfmt_misc) to run ARM
| binaries under emulation on x86? I suppose you might also
| need ARM-specific system libraries installed - these can
| easily coexist with their x86-64 versions on a standard
| Linux install (see "multiarch") but I'm not sure if
| Android allows the same.
| bobthecowboy wrote:
| Somewhat weirdly, if you want to play Minecraft Bedrock
| (not the classic Java version, but the one developed for
| handhelds, consoles, and Windows) on the SteamDeck this
| appears to be the most solid path. I've played it and it
| works.
| MiddleEndian wrote:
| For me it seems useful for the opposite reason. There's a lot
| of garbage that you have to use where something could be a
| website but they want you to install some Android app. If I
| could run those Android apps on my PC, maybe it could be a
| slightly less terrible experience. Perhaps various dating apps
| as well, idk.
| CarVac wrote:
| Realcalc?
| Perenti wrote:
| I have a "smart guitar" that needs the app to change settings.
| It's the only thing keeping me on a "smart" phone.
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| By 'smart guitar', do you mean that the guitar has an
| amplifier or effect pedal built-in?
| sureglymop wrote:
| I love FairEmail, the mail client. Crazy to say this but it may
| be better than all the desktop mail clients I have used.
| bsdice wrote:
| I tried them all (also anything on Linux) and now I just use
| Roundcube on a local install, which runs in any browser.
| jraph wrote:
| Organic Maps and OSMAnd. They are better than open source
| desktop map software I could find.
|
| Organic Maps has a desktop linux version but it's far from
| having feature parity.
|
| Although it might change with this grant [1] aiming to build a
| nice desktop UI for Organic Maps.
|
| [1] https://nlnet.nl/project/OrganicMaps-ConvergentUI/
| mihalycsaba wrote:
| Screen record apps, that are protected in a normal phone.
| ollybee wrote:
| Exactly the same for me. I now just use and old android phone
| with a broken screen and run scrcpy
| eigenspace wrote:
| The main thing for me would be stuff like banking which require
| app-based authentication. Of course, solutions like this
| unfortunately don't work on something like Waydroid because the
| app knows it's in a container and thus blocks functionality.
| buyucu wrote:
| I use Waydroid to run my banking apps on my laptop. Much more
| convenient than going through many layers of authentication
| each time on internet banking.
| reginald78 wrote:
| Minecraft Bedrock?
| kellpossible2 wrote:
| Lots of mapping apps have no equivalent, especially with an
| interface optimized to work on a phone
| ekianjo wrote:
| So is it possible to have a postmarketOS device that runs Android
| apps at good speed with Waydroid?
| seabass-labrax wrote:
| Yes! Here's a video (not mine) showing exactly that:
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=N-Q0c3iy-5g
| bjoli wrote:
| I have three apps I bought a long time ago. A Swedish dictionary,
| a german-swedish dictionary and an english-swedish dictionary.
|
| They are still installable, but not available in the app store.
| The company (Norstedts) went over to a subscription style (of
| course).
|
| I use waydroid to have them on my desktop and I love it.
| CodeCompost wrote:
| What happened to Microsoft's implementation? Wasn't it supposed
| to come to Windows? Or did that end up by the wayside?
| Wii2 wrote:
| You probably mean WSA, Windows Subsystem for Android, only
| available on Windows 11... for another month. At which point
| support for it will be dropped[0]. It's a bit sad 'cause I,
| myself, do use it for a few things. Also, by default it
| required installing the Amazon Appstore, which I don't think is
| available for download anymore. So the only way to use it now
| would be to use the script from the MagiskOnWSA[1] which
| downloads it somehow, and at the same time, installs Magisk. If
| that even works.
|
| [0] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/android/wsa/
| [1] - https://github.com/LSPosed/MagiskOnWSALocal
| Hackbraten wrote:
| Actually, Wayside would have been a nice name for the software
| that became Waydroid.
| creshal wrote:
| It looks like it fell apart because none of the existing app
| stores wanted to support it (Amazon originally did, then pulled
| out), and Microsoft, in a rare moment of clarity, realized that
| nobody likes the Microsoft Store.
| Klasiaster wrote:
| Many apps depend on running an "official" Android distro from
| Google, Samsung, etc. and don't work with Waydroid's Lineage-
| based distro. I think the Wine-like approach from
| https://gitlab.com/android_translation_layer/android_transla...
| might help to trick apps into believing that they run on an
| "official" Android distro.
| notpushkin wrote:
| There is a set of specific APIs you have to simulate to trick
| apps like this. On "real" Android, such simulation is done with
| things like Magisk modules (which mock certain things) or
| microG (which reimplementats Google services as a whole). The
| Wine-like approach used in ATL is certainly more
| straightforward for simulating APIs, but it's still needs to be
| reimplemented specifically for ATL. Waydroid, on the other
| hand, can _probably_ reuse Magisk or microG, since it's running
| a whole Android setup.
| tuananh wrote:
| waydroid is very good. its very commonly used for playing android
| games on linux.
| ebri wrote:
| anything like this for x11?
| TheFreim wrote:
| I haven't tried it yet, but I did find this guide that might be
| useful:
|
| https://github.com/1999AZZAR/use-waydroid-on-x11
|
| If you try it please let me know how it went.
| jeroenhd wrote:
| Waydroid is based on Anbox (https://github.com/anbox) which is
| no longer being maintained, but should still work for older
| Android versions on LTS distros.
| buyucu wrote:
| I think you can use something like Weston in X11 to run
| Waydroid.
| account-5 wrote:
| Might be barking up the wrong tree but how does this compare with
| android studios emulator?
| arghwhat wrote:
| Waydroid runs Android services and applications natively on
| your machine in a container with apps launching in windows
| side-by-side with your other applications, whereas the Android
| emulator runs a VM with regular smartphone-esque hardware.
|
| Quite a big difference.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| The emulator is just KVM. Yes VMs vs. container is a
| difference, just like it is in endless cloud discussions, but
| it's not particularly _big_ in any objective metrics
| arghwhat wrote:
| This is like suggesting that running applications in a
| Windows VM and running them under WINE isn't a big
| difference.
|
| (One might say "but it's the same OS!" - but it's only
| really a similar kernel, and even that is heavily
| customized and not at all the same as your laptop runs. The
| graphical stack is also nothing like neither X nor
| Wayland.)
|
| Also, rant: it's not _KVM_ , but _QEMU_. KVM is a small API
| to deal with virtualization instructions, but while that
| makes VMs much faster than without (similar to how floating
| point is much faster with hardware support), it does very
| little on its own. The virtualization instructions are
| basically a way to let QEMU run code as is but intercept
| everything important - syscalls, faults, you name it -
| whereas without, it would have to instrument or outright
| interpret the executed program.
|
| It's QEMU that micro-manages setup, execution and
| importantly is responsible for emulating all the VM devices
| - KVM just exposes memory mapped into the virtual CPU's
| memory space.
| redleader55 wrote:
| Let me list of few things that I can think of:
|
| - (pro) It run on a laptop/desktop so it's performance will be
| a lot better
|
| - (con) If the app has any native code inside it, it will need
| to support x86_64 or you'll need to have an ARM laptop
|
| - (con) Like many in the thread mentioned, some apps will
| require Google features to even start.
|
| - (con) I'm not sure if Waydroid will report secure boot
| features to the apps that require it.
| kllrnohj wrote:
| The emulator these days is just using an x86_64 image and
| with not-that-modern VM hardware extensions the overhead is
| pretty small.
|
| So I'd expect CPU performance to be very similar if not
| basically identical.
|
| GPU performance would be the bigger question, and the
| emulator has put a lot of work in that direction. Is this
| better or worse than that would be the biggest difference
| performance-wise.
| redleader55 wrote:
| Not entirely true. An example of a bug which will be fixed
| soon -
| https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/hardware/processors-
| me....
| tgtweak wrote:
| A few things that seem like they're consistently missing from
| these projects: Hardware 3d acceleration from the host in a
| version of OpenGL ES + Vulkan that most phones have natively.
| Lastly, many apps have built-in ways of detecting that they're
| not running on a phone and ditch out (looking at cpuinfo and
| referencing that with the purported device being run).
|
| It also seems that expected arm support on device is increasing
| (along with expected throughput) and that the capability of the
| x86 host device you need to emulate even a modest modern mobile
| ARM soc is getting higher and higher.
|
| Lastly, the android version supported is almost always 3-4
| generations behind the current Android. Apps are quick to drop
| legacy android support or run with fewer features/less
| optimizations on older versions of the OS. The android base
| version in this project is from 2020.
|
| Anecdotally, using bluestacks (which indisputably has the most
| compatible and optimized emulation stack in the entire space)
| with a 7800X3D / RTX 3090 still runs most games slower than a
| snapdragon 8 phone from yesteryear running natively.
| westurner wrote:
| virtio-gpu rutabaga was recently added to QEMU IIUC mostly by
| Google for Chromebook Android emulation or Android Studio or
| both?
|
| virtio-gpu-rutabaga:
| https://www.qemu.org/docs/master/system/devices/virtio-gpu.h...
|
| Rutabaga Virtual Graphics Interface:
| https://crosvm.dev/book/appendix/rutabaga_gfx.html
|
| gfxstream:
| https://android.googlesource.com/platform/hardware/google/gf...
|
| "Gfxstream Merged Into Mesa For Vulkan Virtualization"
| (2024-09) https://www.phoronix.com/news/Mesa-Gfxstream-Merged
|
| I don't understand why there is not an official x86 container /
| ROM for Android development? Do CI builds of Android apps not
| run tests with recent versions of Android? How do CI builds of
| APKs run GUI tests without an Android container?
| tgtweak wrote:
| There is no official support for x86 in android any more -
| the Android-x86 project was the last I know that
| supported/maintained it. Last release was 2022.
|
| For apps that use Vulkan natively, it's easy - but many still
| use and rely on OpenGL ES. It's a weird scenario where you
| have apps that are now supporting Vulkan, but they have
| higher minimum OS requirements as a result... but those
| versions of Android aren't supported by these type of
| projects.
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