[HN Gopher] Permission to Practise Medicine
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       Permission to Practise Medicine
        
       Author : pepys
       Score  : 42 points
       Date   : 2025-01-26 17:57 UTC (4 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blogs.bl.uk)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blogs.bl.uk)
        
       | WaitWaitWha wrote:
       | > However, while women did take up medical roles, they could
       | undoubtedly face animosity and suspicion as a result.
       | 
       | > ... without hindrance or disturbance from those people who
       | might regard her with contempt or otherwise mistrust her medical
       | knowledge.
       | 
       | > Unfortunately, we do not know any further details about the
       | kinds of resistance Joan faced as a physician or the medical
       | treatments she performed, or even if Henry ever granted her
       | request.
       | 
       | I appreciate the historical evidence and what it means to us
       | _today_. I disagree with the wild conjecture _why_ she wrote this
       | request.
       | 
       | I believe this request by Joan du Lee is more about making
       | medicine a profession like carpetry, masonry and similar which
       | were supported through masters, journeymen and guilds, than about
       | hindrance based on sex.
       | 
       | Midwifes and doulas have been around for millennia in all
       | cultures. In my limited knowledge, I am not aware of a culture
       | where most of these roles are not females.
       | 
       | Midwifery is a narrow field, but there were lot of fully
       | acknowledged "doctors". Our first evidence was for Peseshet (c.
       | 2600 BC, Ancient Egypt), the "Lady Overseer of the Female
       | Physicians", meaning that she was not only the doc but there was
       | an entire "school" of female "docs".
       | 
       | There are of course also Enheduanna (c. 2300 BC, Sumer),
       | Mesopotamian Healing Women (c. 2000 BC and earlier), and of
       | course Agnodice, from the Greek tradition (c. 5th century BC and
       | earlier).
        
         | watwut wrote:
         | > I am not aware of a culture where most of these roles are not
         | females.
         | 
         | Literally Europe, in between the time when births moved to
         | hospitals and before women became doctors. There were no
         | "midwifes" nor "doulas" present during birth.
         | 
         | Also, literally whole communist block the whole time and also
         | long after the communism felt. While midwifes and doulas just
         | were not a thing. The nurses are all women, doctors used to be
         | almost only men and now are mix of men and women.
        
           | n4r9 wrote:
           | > Europe, in between the time when births moved to hospitals
           | and before women became doctors
           | 
           | Don't know about the rest of Europe, but in the UK midwives
           | became an official profession in 1902 and have consistently
           | almost all been women, whilst most births would have been at
           | home until the introduction of the NHS in 1948.
        
             | jdougan wrote:
             | My Mom was a midwife in London in the mid-20th century. She
             | used to joke that she was a black belt...in midwifery.
             | Apparently the belt colors had meaning then and still do
             | other places (after a quick search it looks like Ghana
             | still uses a black belt for midwives).
        
           | bloak wrote:
           | In the Soviet Union most doctors were women. Random citation:
           | "In 1917, 17 percent of doctors were women, yet by 1940 61
           | percent were women. From the 1950s the figure fluctuated at
           | around 65-70 percent (Ryan, 1989: 38)."
        
             | watwut wrote:
             | Most of them pediatricians and the first contact doctors.
             | The gender split depended on the specialty.
             | 
             | The gynecologic and doctors doing childbirths were
             | frequently men. Likewise, surgeons. And there was
             | stereotype of them being better then women.
        
           | throw_pm23 wrote:
           | You are very wrong w.r. to communist block. Women's
           | participation in medicine (and other intellectual
           | professions) was generally high, possibly higher than in the
           | west.
        
             | watwut wrote:
             | The gender split depended on specialist. Pediatricians
             | would be women much more often then surgeons. Gynecologists
             | were frequently men, the more in-hospital you are, the more
             | men you would encounter.
             | 
             | The eastern europe idea of what is "intellectual" or
             | "important" was different then western one, leading to
             | women having different jobs. Good half of what Americans
             | consider "intellectual" was seen as administrative and
             | boring. Economics is an example of women supposedly doing
             | something more progressive, but in eastern europe it was
             | being seen as easy school for future administrative workers
             | that dont require "real" specialization.
        
           | pbalau wrote:
           | My mom is a doctor, pediatrician, and she finished medical
           | school end of 70s or beginning of 80s.
           | 
           | One of her coworkers went by the title "moasa", the Romanian
           | word for midwife.
        
             | watwut wrote:
             | Women become doctors long before 70s and 80ties. There
             | being word for a midwife in that language does not imply
             | practicing midwifes during communism. They have word for
             | knight too and knights were not a thing either.
        
               | pbalau wrote:
               | You are deliberately obtuse.
        
         | sapphicsnail wrote:
         | Are you trying to say that women historically haven't had any
         | obstacles to becoming doctors? Just because you can point to a
         | handful of exceptions doesn't mean that discrimination doesn't
         | exist. I don't know as much about the Middle Ages but read some
         | Galen or pretty much any Greek author and tell me with a
         | straight face that any of these people would have no problems
         | with women being doctors.
        
           | gosub100 wrote:
           | Just because you can show fewer women than men do a thing
           | doesn't mean that it's caused by discrimination. Do you think
           | men are discriminated by salons, massage parlors, or
           | preschool teacher positions? It's sexism right?
        
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