[HN Gopher] The Alpha Myth: How captive wolves led us astray
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The Alpha Myth: How captive wolves led us astray
Author : ada1981
Score : 102 points
Date : 2025-01-27 19:21 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (anthonydavidadams.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (anthonydavidadams.substack.com)
| Terr_ wrote:
| I often like to sum it up as: "Thinking gangs observed in prison
| represent human households."
|
| This goes along with an imagined mockumentary, narrated by a
| David Attenborough figure, ex: "In the living room, a
| confrontation is brewing. The Big Boss has informed the bottom-
| tier Henchmen Homies that it is time for lights-out, but they are
| not ready to leave the television and they resent the privileges
| of the older Made Man, who is permitted to remain. This is a
| problem for the Big Boss, since directly punishing them might
| undermine his claim to control the group as a whole. Fortunately
| for him, his Enforcer is arriving from the kitchen, attracted by
| the noise..."
| HPsquared wrote:
| Maybe not all households, but some. And schools bear more than
| a passing resemblance to prisons.
| bestouff wrote:
| Depends on the country.
| ada1981 wrote:
| Genius concept.
| nico wrote:
| Something similar happened with models for addiction in rats
| (which were extrapolated to humans)
|
| It turned out that rats that live in a nice environment, with
| plenty of activities and social spaces (not an ugly, mostly
| empty cage), don't become addicted
|
| Ref: Rat Park experiment
| Analemma_ wrote:
| The Internet loves the Rat Park experiment, but it never
| replicated and should be considered just as bogus as all the
| other stuff in social psych which hasn't survived the
| replication crisis.
|
| It's fitting for this thread though, because it survives for
| the exact reason the alpha wolf stuff survives: people love
| the story so they hang on to it irrespective of the science.
| nradov wrote:
| Right, and we've seen plenty of people who lead the "Rat
| Park" equivalent of human lives and yet still get addicted
| to opioids. There's clearly no single cause.
| sunjieming wrote:
| I think 90% of my HS psych class didn't replicate
| jojobas wrote:
| Gangs in prison represent gangs out of prison though.
| skyyler wrote:
| I don't think that's true, actually.
|
| Do you have any evidence that suggests prison gangs are
| similar to street gangs?
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| It's stunning how so much of our own behavior, or at least
| explanations of it, reference what turns out to be almost
| entirely false conclusions. It could take 100 years to undo.
| deepsquirrelnet wrote:
| A more cynical take could be that maybe it fits because we've
| constructed our own captivity or 'prison conditions' where this
| tends to emerge.
| zitsarethecure wrote:
| Out of curiosity, what conditions would you describe as
| prison-like that would drive someone to adopt an "alpha male"
| lifestyle in the US?
| deepsquirrelnet wrote:
| > Consider how this plays out in Silicon Valley, where the
| "move fast and break things" mentality has created a
| leadership culture that celebrates disruption over
| sustainability, dominance over collaboration.
|
| That's how the article phrased it. I'm not certain if I
| agree or not, but I'm not ready to either accept or dismiss
| it.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| Before we start dishing on sociology as junk science, I'd like
| to point out that a lot of what we consider science as junk
| science.
|
| For instance, take the myth of RICE to treat injuries. The myth
| lived for over 30 years before being debunked, but even a
| decade after it was soundly routed, we still find the advice in
| the wild.
|
| https://thesportjournal.org/article/the-r-i-c-e-protocol-is-...
| liuxiansheng wrote:
| It won't be undone because people want it to be true regardless
| of evidence. The cat (dog?) is out of the bag.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Ideology doesn't have to be 100% true to be effective. Goes all
| the way back to Plato's idea of the "noble lie".
| bulatb wrote:
| People didn't get their worldview from the myth. They like the
| myth because it fits their worldview.
| Fricken wrote:
| >In their natural habitat, wolf packs operated nothing like the
| prison-yard dynamics he'd observed in the zoo.
|
| Human's aren't in their natural habit most of the time either.
| "Prison-yard dynamics" is how the public education system
| functions. This is where our children are socialized.
| mettamage wrote:
| High school is more complex as there is a life outside it
| where other dynamics can be observed. At least that's what I
| noticed and it made me realize that the popularity contest in
| high school was a farce.
| vkou wrote:
| > it made me realize that the popularity contest in high
| school was a farce.
|
| Observing outside life has led me to conclude that the high
| school popularity contest, is, in fact, the most authentic,
| freest form of human social behavior.
| ada1981 wrote:
| I don't disagree of course. And this is less a critique of
| the individual men vs our current social structure. A good
| deal of my work is in helping people free themselves,
| however, this wouldn't be necessary had it not been a life
| long project of incarceration.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| I suspect this is part of the reason unschooling is become
| more popular.
| jojobas wrote:
| 15% of the 5% homeschooled is not very popular.
| hinkley wrote:
| See also depressed rats in stressful conditions becoming drug
| addicts.
| mettamage wrote:
| I've pondered alpha male theory for a 5 years before having a
| solid conclusion before or against it. I rejected it. But yea,
| I really was that socially clueless, it took me 5 years as a
| late teen of observing and thinking about it to understand that
| life is more complicated than that and that the idea of alpha
| males is ridiculous, especially since I saw strong evidence on
| the contrary (i.e. "beta behaviors" and still having an amazing
| dating life, etc.).
| altairprime wrote:
| I appreciated a point I saw a few months ago about how the
| wolf-derived alpha/beta/etc stuff is a safe way for cis men to
| experiment with gender identity without risking being labeled
| queer by other men and having to confront harassment.
| bandrami wrote:
| Wasn't there a guy who did the "rats prefer cocaine to food"
| study but without having the rats isolated in individual cages,
| and it turns out that no, they don't actually prefer cocaine to
| food when they aren't (essentially) in solitary?
| hinkley wrote:
| Yep.
|
| Hopelessness keeps you on the drugs as much as biochemistry.
|
| Kicking any bad habit is easier if you have something to
| replace it with.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| You're talking about the Rat Park study. That one is also
| controversial and hasn't successfully replicated. Personally I
| think the general idea of a connection between emotional trauma
| and addiction is pretty obvious, but also a but more complex
| than the Rat Park study implies or assumes.
| mandmandam wrote:
| > hasn't successfully replicated
|
| To be clear, lots of studies have shown that animals in
| richer environments do less drugs; though the effect doesn't
| seem to be as strong as Alexander claimed.
| uqual wrote:
| We have many real life human "experiments" that can be looked to
| in determining if the "alpha" concept is a "more successful"
| model in business. This is particularly true in areas where
| demand for highly qualified employees outstrips supply - such as
| many flavors of software development.
|
| If the 'alpha' model is universally detrimental to success in
| business, it would quickly die out.
|
| However it has not and most modern (and premodern) successful
| companies (by metrics of growth, profit, income, revenue, PE etc)
| have been founded and grown by "alpha" leaders and staff.
|
| There are of course exceptions but we would expect the "alpha"
| model to instead be the exception if it was a less successful way
| of running a business.
|
| In practice, both can co-exist and as a company matures it may,
| over time, switch between models.
|
| Some people like the driven competitive environment and seek it
| out and will tend to end up at enterprises that favor the "alpha"
| model. Others who dislike such environments will seek out
| enterprises that utilize alternative models. An individual will
| likely be more productive in the environment best suited for them
| and an individual will rarely switch from a strong preference for
| one of these environments to a strong preference for an
| alternative environment.
|
| If there is substantial dissatisfaction on the part of workers
| with the "alpha" model and an alternative model would be more
| productive and successful, startups would blossom that use
| alternative models and hire away the cream of the crop of the
| "alpha" companies' employees.
| stackghost wrote:
| >However it has not and most modern (and premodern) successful
| companies (by metrics of growth, profit, income, revenue, PE
| etc) have been founded and grown by "alpha" leaders and staff.
|
| Citation needed. By my estimation, the overwhelming majority of
| CEOs are doughy, effete city slickers who are the exact
| opposite of the prototypical "alpha male" image.
|
| Zuckerberg, with his MMA training, might be the only one I can
| think of that fits the stereotype.
|
| Don't confuse the putative "alpha male" with simply being a
| douchebag, because I can think of quite a large number of CEOs
| that fit that latter description, but it's not the same thing.
| dsr_ wrote:
| And by definition, Zuckerberg didn't start out as an "alpha",
| but decided to emulate one after he was already super-
| wealthy.
| withinboredom wrote:
| > grown by "alpha" leaders and staff.
|
| Umm... isn't the whole point of an "alpha" to be the top-man...
| so how would there be more than one? That doesn't make any
| internally logical sense.
|
| > An individual will likely be more productive in the
| environment best suited for them
|
| Good premise, but you don't need the "alpha" theory to argue
| it.
|
| > in determining if the "alpha" concept is a "more successful"
| model in business.
|
| You do a really poor job of explaining what this even means,
| but it sounds bogus from your description. No offense intended.
| gnatman wrote:
| This is writing of someone steeped in "alpha male" youtube &
| podcast ideology.
| LudwigNagasena wrote:
| The abuse of the captive wolves research factoid is officially
| run into the ground. We now blame it for the whole organisation
| of humanity. I thought bashing online communities for using
| "alpha" was inadequate, but that takes the cake.
| ada1981 wrote:
| I don't intend to put the blame on the wolf study. I think it's
| more that we are in captivity, and exhibit deeply unhealthy
| relationship patterns with pretty much our entire environment
| from food, to women, to time itself.
| goatlover wrote:
| This assumes hunter gatherers were better off than we are
| today. That's a controversial claim. You still have to
| survive in nature with finding food and making shelter,
| fending off predators, negotiating rival groups, dealing with
| disease and injury. It wasn't some utopian existence.
| robocat wrote:
| The fact the wolf alpha male theory was wrong doesn't imply we
| don't have alpha dominance for men.
|
| Do we use alpha male gorillas to explain the concept?
|
| (Edit) Or Chimpanzees:
| https://news.janegoodall.org/2018/07/10/top-bottom-chimpanze...
| The highest-ranking chimpanzee in a group is the alpha-male.
| These males climb their way to the top of the chimpanzee
| hierarchy, and the ways they choose to do so can differ with the
| personality of the individual leader. Take two of the alpha males
| observed in Gombe, Frodo and Freud, for instance. Though they
| were brothers, each chimp had a very different leadership style.
| While Freud maintained control through fostering strong alliances
| and grooming those he wanted to keep under his command, Frodo
| relied heavily on aggression and brute strength.
| dsr_ wrote:
| The fact that the evidence doesn't exist doesn't imply the
| phenomenon doesn't exist?
|
| Remind me, why gorillas and not chimps? Why chimps and not
| bonobos? Why assume that two related species with completely
| different environmental niches must share a social structure?
| goatlover wrote:
| Gorillas, Chimpanzees and Baboons are similar in their social
| structures with the dominant alpha males. Bonobos are
| different with it being matriarchal and conflict resolution
| being less violent.
| itishappy wrote:
| It just means analogies are dangerous. Would be nice if we
| could determine if the effect actually applies to humans before
| introducing yet another.
| cyberax wrote:
| It actually works with chimps. They _are_ very hierarchical and
| somewhat neurotic even in the wild.
|
| It's no wonder that they are our closest cousin.
|
| Gorillas, in comparison, are much more laid-back.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| Our closest cousins are actually bonobos (or at least they
| are as close to us as chimpanzees are), which don't have this
| type of hierarchy. Regardless, group social hierarchies don't
| necessarily translate even between closely related species,
| such as chimps and bonobos, so there is no reason whatsoever
| to extend them from some ape to humans.
| crazygringo wrote:
| Exactly. The concept didn't come from wolves alone. We also
| call it a pecking order based on chickens.
|
| The concept of a dominance hierarchy is widely established:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominance_hierarchy?wprov=sfti...
|
| And the gorillas and chimpanzees studied are not in captivity.
|
| Obviously not every species exhibits this, and the ones that do
| don't exhibit it all the time. But the article acts like the
| concept has been discredited when that is not the case at all.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Indeed, once we fall in love with a model we can usually find
| some evidence for the model.
| vunderba wrote:
| From the article:
|
| _> Instead of ruling from above, he built a flat structure where
| decisions emerge from collaboration._
|
| I've also seen the flip-side of this - where due to the fact that
| there is no established hierarchy, you spend inordinate amounts
| of time welding entirely disparate architectures together since
| every team was cowboy coding and doing their own thing.
|
| Also anecdotally, I've never once experienced this Type-A prima
| donna alpha engineer but I've had absolutely zero interest in
| working for a FAANG. Every engineer I've ever worked with was
| pretty easy-going.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| " Type-A prima donna alpha engineer "
|
| Most are bluster.
|
| Talk loud and fast and be rude, arrogant, and lot of people
| will think you must really know what you are doing.
| tayo42 wrote:
| > Every engineer I've ever worked with was pretty easy-going.
|
| Every one seems easy going until you disagree with them.
| robwwilliams wrote:
| Dubious article. The role of aggression in establishing and
| maintaining social hierarchies was not mis-diagnosed in 1974. The
| behaviors of alpha males (wolves) and alpha females (hyenas) are
| complex but threat and pain is part of the pattern. Highly
| variable by species, environment, and demographics.
|
| Go over the hills from Silicon Valley to Ano Nuevo Marine
| Conservation Area and watch the behavior of male elephant seals
| like Bernie LeBoef has done for 30 years.
|
| How does any of this apply to Silicon Valley other than as a cute
| and wrong metaphor? Are we really taking leads from dogs?
| kristopolous wrote:
| Regardless of the accuracy, analogizing to humans is absurd.
|
| Some spiders eat their partner after mating, should we do that?
|
| Some animals defecate to mark territory, should we do that?
|
| Many abandon their children after birth or even eat their babies.
|
| Maybe we should use artificial ovipositors and proboscises.
|
| People want to ordain their ideology with the notion of natural
| order to claim it as scientific law. The accuracy of the
| underlying animal claim is irrelevant because the logic
| connecting some random animal to humans is nonsense.
| ada1981 wrote:
| >> Some spiders eat their partner after mating, should we do
| that?
|
| Have you spent time with many married couples? ;)
| korse wrote:
| Did anyone consider that our society IS artificial conditions?
| Not sure about you all, but western society feels much more akin
| to a zoo than the wilderness.
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