[HN Gopher] Operation Leg - a pilot unlike any other (2020)
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Operation Leg - a pilot unlike any other (2020)
Author : FinnLobsien
Score : 158 points
Date : 2025-01-27 15:41 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.rafbf.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.rafbf.org)
| blitzar wrote:
| I have not read the book (Reach for the Sky - 1954) nor watched
| the movie (Reach for the Sky - 1956) in a very very long time
| however I recall them fondly from my youth.
| cperciva wrote:
| _In a remarkable piece of wartime diplomacy, German General Adolf
| Galland notified the RAF of Bader 's missing right prosthetic leg
| and, with Hermann Goring's permission, the RAF was given safe
| passage to parachute in a replacement prosthetic in a mission
| called 'Operation Leg'._
|
| Not so remarkable when you consider that tying up RAF planes and
| burning their fuel on missions like this reduces their combat
| capabilities. It's the same logic which says that seriously
| injuring enemy infantry is more effective than killing them,
| since one dead soldier is one soldier who can't fight but one
| injured soldier is one soldier who can't fight plus one or two
| who won't fight because they're evacuating him.
|
| (Of course, Russian doctrine now seems to counter this by leaving
| seriously injured soldiers on the battlefield to bleed out...)
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Not so remarkable when you consider that tying up RAF planes
| and burning their fuel on missions like this reduces their
| combat capabilities._
|
| Or, sometimes human beings act like human beings, even in a
| time of war. In addition to the whole notion of "rules of war,"
| there are thousands of examples, but here is a famous one:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
|
| > The truces were not unique to the Christmas period and
| reflected a mood of "live and let live", where infantry close
| together would stop fighting and fraternise, engaging in
| conversation. In some sectors, there were occasional ceasefires
| to allow soldiers to go between the lines and recover wounded
| or dead comrades; in others, there was a tacit agreement not to
| shoot while men rested, exercised or worked in view of the
| enemy.
|
| People like you and me work at computers all day and start to
| think like computers and try to use "logic" to explain
| everything away. Fortunately, there are real people in the real
| world who are free of our burdens.
| aja12 wrote:
| > Fortunately, there are real people in the real world who
| are free of our burdens.
|
| You might be right about the general, who knows. But Goring?
| No, that man was definitely a computer.
| cperciva wrote:
| Christmas truces were absolutely a thing, but they came about
| through the action of troops on the ground -- and the
| commanding officers absolutely hated them.
| short_sells_poo wrote:
| I'm not condoning it at all, but I think it's easy to
| understand why commanding officers didn't like their troops
| fraternizing with the enemy. If GI John and Soldat Hans
| share a coffee and a cigarette together, and perhaps even a
| pleasant chat, they will quickly come to realize that both
| of them are human beings, with human feelings, a family
| worrying about them, children possibly, hopes and dreams,
| and so on. And once you are acutely aware that your enemy
| is just like you, only perhaps speaks a different language,
| you are much-much less inclined to shoot them and stop
| being an efficient soldier.
|
| I've never been in a war, and hope I never live to see
| myself in one, but the only way I can see one human
| viciously trying to kill another is by not thinking of
| their enemy as a human being, but rather just a thing.
| cperciva wrote:
| Absolutely. They were described as "disastrous to morale"
| and units which had engaged in Christmas truces would
| routinely be moved to other parts of the front in order
| to avoid the issues you mention.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| > _you are much-much less inclined to shoot them and stop
| being an efficient soldier._
|
| But you also take _the other side 's_ soldiers out, in
| the same way. Why wouldn't commanding officers like that?
| short_sells_poo wrote:
| I'm not a military thinker, so I might well be off on
| this, but I'd say because that would usually results in a
| draw, whereas the commanding officers generally want to
| win so that they can achieve the overall plan set out by
| strategic command - and want to achieve a crushing
| victory from which the opponent cannot recover from.
|
| I guess an army on the retreat who would favor an instant
| draw would favor the fraternizing, but generally by that
| point the winning army - including the soldiers - are not
| amenable to stop their advance and play a friendly game
| of football.
| cperciva wrote:
| The morale of your troops is known. The morale of the
| opposing troops is suspected but not certain.
|
| WW1 ended because the influenza epidemic was devastating
| the troops on both sides but neither side knew for
| certain how hard it was hitting the other side.
| bb123 wrote:
| I don't think that was the rationale. For captured
| senior/important figures were given all kinds of affordances
| and gestures made which contrast shockingly with the conditions
| we know people endured in concentration camps.
|
| For example Senior officers at Colditz often received parcels
| from home with stuff like cigars, chocolates, and spirits,
| sometimes through diplomatic agreements with the Red Cross.
| This was at a time when Germany in general was starving. They
| also organised theatre productions, orchestras, and even sports
| events.
|
| I think this is just a relic of a different era and a different
| code of war - similar to how long before this Naval captains
| from opposing sides often shared meals after a ship's
| surrender. It is hard to imagine now.
| advisedwang wrote:
| > I think this is just a relic of a different era and a
| different code of war
|
| It's worth noting that this kind of civility only happened on
| the Western front. The eastern front was a no-mercy teeth out
| display of barbarism. I think the conclusion is that it's to
| the era, but the specific conditions that resulted in acts
| like this.
| cperciva wrote:
| _For captured senior /important figures were given all kinds
| of affordances and gestures made which contrast shockingly
| with the conditions we know people endured in concentration
| camps._
|
| It wasn't just senior and important figures; _POW_ camps
| generally were nothing like the Nazi _concentration_ camps
| since their purpose was internment rather than extermination.
| People tend to conflate the two, partly because Eisenhower
| worked so hard to document the Holocaust.
|
| Western POWs were also treated better than Eastern POWs out
| of fear of retaliation; the USSR wasn't a signatory to the
| Geneva conventions and already treated their prisoners poorly
| so there was no similar incentive to treat Eastern POWs well.
| (And also layered on top of this was Nazi ideology about
| Slavic races being inferior etc.)
| carabiner wrote:
| Germans and British were on friendly terms even right before
| war. When the Germans completed a test flight of a new
| aircraft (forget which), British engineers sent a "congrats!"
| message to them to which the Germans were appreciative.
| hindsightbias wrote:
| The older cadre of Luftwaffe officers considered themselves
| better than other forces, with a generational code of
| honor/conduct. Their highest award was the Knight's Cross, so
| the concept of chivalry among peers was at least a thing.
| Aircrew POW camps were run by grounded/older Luftwaffe
| officers.
|
| Goring was a WWI ace, Galland was younger so maybe eager to
| please.
| schroeding wrote:
| Goring also directly gave the order to Reinhard Heydrich to
| organize the "Final Solution of the Jew Question" aka
| Holocaust. So code of honor with strict restriction to
| "Aryan" pilots of the western Allies, if at all, IMO.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| At least towards the end of the war, Galland was not a fan of
| Goring (he was a ringleader of the Fighter Pilots' Revolt)
| untouchable wrote:
| Small note, the airdrop was to Saint-Omer, a Luftwaffe airbase in
| France not a castle. Bader was later imprisoned in Colditz
| Castle.
| cluckindan wrote:
| The story certainly affirms the stereotype that Nazi officers and
| especially officers of the Luftwaffe had a sense of "soldier's
| honor".
|
| In light of recent events, it is curious that this particular
| story has surfaced now.
|
| Perhaps it is prudent to remind that the Nazis still were the bad
| guys.
| kitd wrote:
| The "soldier's honour" normally came from the Wehrmacht,
| professional army officers & soldiers who were very different
| (and considered themselves very different) to the SS divisions
| whose leadership were little more than Nazi sadists.
| wbl wrote:
| The wehrmacht happily collaborated with SS units or engaged
| in actions such as
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zambr%C3%B3w_massacre or
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciepiel%C3%B3w_massacre
| Yoric wrote:
| As a side-note, you can have a sense of honor, or even consider
| yourself a good person, and nevertheless murder pregnant women
| and children as part or your day job. They key is to not
| consider them as human beings or, alternatively, to consider
| that you're somehow doing it for their own good, e.g. by saving
| their soul.
|
| Nazis (and Imperial Japan, and Crusaders, and plenty of others
| throughout history) made this possible at large scale by
| spending years of propaganda dehumanizing the "other".
|
| Sadly, we're seeing a trend of doing the same alongside
| political lines these days. It's not yet as bad as Mein Kampf,
| but it's very, very worrying.
| close04 wrote:
| > consider that you're somehow doing it for their own good
|
| I was surprised to read about Fritz Haber, the man who
| catalyzed nitrogen fertilizers and other "nice" things like
| mustard gas, that he was convinced that mustard gas is the
| humane solution for ending the war. Since WW1 would end
| faster from his perspective he was saving lives.
|
| Almost perfectly mirrors the view that people dropping atomic
| bombs on Japan had.
|
| Both horrible weapons, one used mainly on the battle field,
| the other on cities packed with civilians. Both deployed with
| the same "we're actually saving lives" attitude. Today only
| one is considered an atrocity almost everywhere in the world.
| The other still gets the same explanation as it did 8 decades
| ago.
| bagels wrote:
| Which one is considered an attrocity? I'd argue both.
| duxup wrote:
| People are different from person to person and are complex and
| make different / sometimes even conflicting choices.
|
| We see this when it comes to "meeting your heroes" too.
| almostnormal wrote:
| If you get bitten by flying bug, that's it. No escape.
|
| I would love to live a carbon-neutral live, but giving up on
| flying - no way. An easy choice compared to those at war.
|
| Bader willingly reentered the airforce, putting his life at
| risk, just to be able to fly.
|
| On the German side, to get to fly at least prentend to be a
| Nazi. Without that, no flying.
|
| Sacrifices have to be made to get airborn.
| jayrot wrote:
| "If only it were all so simple! If only there were evil people
| somewhere insidiously committing evil deeds, and it were
| necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy
| them. But the line dividing good and evil cuts through the
| heart of every human being. And who is willing to destroy a
| piece of his own heart?" -- Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn
|
| ----
|
| To be clear, I'm personally of the "nazis need to be punched in
| the face" mindset, but I still love this quote. Life is nuanced
| and people are complex. Even Solzhenitsyn knew.
| wongarsu wrote:
| "Germany" in the larger sense were the bad guys. And in the top
| ranks of the party there plenty of individuals who were
| definitely evil. But the regular military - from the foot
| soldier up to the generals - were just regular people fighting
| a war. They were no more or less cruel or honorable than their
| British counterparts.
|
| Remember that the holocaust only started 3 years into the war
| (after this operation) and its extend was not widely known on
| either side of the war; and any country takes great care that
| any war they are engaged in is framed as a just cause
| technothrasher wrote:
| > Remember that the holocaust only started 3 years into the
| war
|
| Kristallnacht was a year before the start of the war. The
| mass murders of Polish intelligentsia started immediately
| upon the invasion of Poland in 1939. Auschwitz received its
| first prisoners in the spring of 1940. While the formalizing
| of the "Final Solution" was a bit more than three years into
| the war (January of 1942), that is very disingenuous place to
| claim the holocaust "began".
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Depending on how exactly you categorise Nazi atrocities,
| Aktion T4 (September 1939) could be considered the start of
| the Holocaust - putting the start point at 0 days into the
| war.
| wongarsu wrote:
| Maybe I shouldn't have written holocaust but "systematic
| mass-murder of all Jews". I assumed the intended meaning
| would be clear, but in retrospect I can see how it might
| offend. And I am open to arguments that this predates the
| "Final Solution" by up to six months, putting us closer to
| two years into the war.
|
| But before that while there were events where thousands or
| tens of thousands were killed, the general policy was to
| intern people in camps. And while that is horrible enough
| to our modern morals (precisely because of the Nazi
| precedent) it was less abhorrent to people of that time.
| Otherwise the US would have hardly put Japanese-Americans
| in camps
| wbl wrote:
| No the policy was extermination of the Jews. Babi Yar,
| the destruction of Vilna, the murder of nameless villages
| now lost to us all took place from the very begining.
|
| Both the straight and twisted path interpretations
| acknowledge that Hitlers intention was the destruction of
| European Jews, and that the Nazi state carried it out
| with little resistance with the fact widely, unmissibly
| known.
| neverforget-at wrote:
| Please just delete both this whole comment and your "3
| years into the war" paragraph as long as there is still
| time.
|
| As an austrian it's clear you don't fully know what you
| are talking about.
|
| It's ok to get something wrong sometimes, it's never ok
| to double down and start arguing because of it.
| Especially if the topic is the _Holocaust_!
|
| > the general policy was to intern people in camps
|
| This is so wrong it hurts.
|
| All the people in the camps were still meant to soon die
| there, we are not talking refugee camps here. Comparing
| these to US Japanese Internment camps is quite troubeling
| too.
| chgs wrote:
| There's probably some truth that many normal soldiers fighting
| for nazi germany were not aware of the full extent of the
| horrors at the time. I suspect many just ignored the evidence
| and believed they were in a traditional war like 1914, or
| colonial wars of the late 19th century.
|
| Certainly when Germans were shown the concentration camps after
| the war they wouldn't believe the evidence in front of them.
| They didn't want to think about it during the war either.
|
| Theres no excuse now of course.
|
| It's sickening that with the increased support of the far right
| across the west being so apparent today, that it's the 80th
| anniversary of Auschwitz today.
| eastbound wrote:
| The left is closer to nazism than the far right. And we
| repeat "far right" only because the left dehumanizes them and
| adds superlatives that become comical; Today, applying the
| law is described as ultra-extremist. The left just has a very
| clear racial project.
| kitd wrote:
| Ben Mackintyre's book about Colditz reveals that Douglas Bader
| was actually a pretty unpleasant character, often tolerated by
| his peers at best, and often loathed by his subordinates whom he
| would bully. He was an outstanding pilot though and was given the
| benefit of the doubt as a result.
|
| To his credit, after the war he used his fame to become a vocal
| advocate for the disabled. I remember him as such when I was
| young.
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| Thoroughly enjoyable book. I read it recently and, having gone
| to a UK boarding school, the stories about life in Colditz
| being treated like a high stakes public (posh) boarding school
| by the British Officers rang very true to me.
| lazyeye wrote:
| Britain setup a holiday/prison camp for high-ranking german
| officers and bugged everything. It's a fascinating story..
|
| https://www.amazon.com.au/Walls-Have-Ears-Intelligence-
| Opera...
| bloopernova wrote:
| In WW2, Admiral Ernest King is reputed to have said _" When
| they get in trouble, they send for the sons of bitches."_
|
| There were a lot of utter assholes and bullies around at that
| time. There were huge inter department feuds that resulted in
| many thousands of deaths. Part of why Eisenhower was a good
| supreme commander was that he could wrangle the assholes into
| at least not fighting each other!
| potato3732842 wrote:
| >Part of why Eisenhower was a good supreme commander was that
| he could wrangle the assholes into at least not fighting each
| other!
|
| That's a spicy take on the British.
|
| (I kid, but the joke is in fact based in historical fact,
| managing relations with the British was a key reason he was
| given the job)
| pfdietz wrote:
| And the French.
|
| As General Jacob L. Devers wrote to French General Jean de
| Lattre de Tassigny in 1945, "For many months we have fought
| together, often on the same side."
| cab11150904 wrote:
| Ben is unlikely to ever be surpassed as in author in my eyes. I
| have read most of his books, well listened on Audible during my
| commutes, and they are all amazing. He quite literally brings
| history to life for me. His descriptions make you feel like
| you're there. Prisoners of the Castle is the one I haven't
| really had interest in but I'll probably get it at some point
| just to hear them all.
| DC-3 wrote:
| An extremely capable and heroic man. But also an out-and-out
| racist who was an unabashed supporter of apartheid Rhodesia.
| People are complicated.
| gnfargbl wrote:
| Bader was also a chief proponent of the Big Wing, essentially
| flying a shitload of planes together in formation. The Big Wing
| which is usually considered [1] to have been a worse strategy
| than the more dynamic, targeted and integrated Dowding System
| [2] with which it competed.
|
| He might have been a good pilot and a determined escapee, but I
| don't think history has much else to say in his favour.
|
| [1] https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/battle-of-britain-big-wing-
| wa...
|
| [2] https://www.iwm.org.uk/history/what-was-the-dowding-system
| matthewmorgan wrote:
| Whereas bagging on a dead war hero due to something you read in
| a book is highly creditable behaviour
| kitd wrote:
| Mackintyre is a professional historian whose work is based on
| first hand accounts so I think it can be taken as fact that
| many found him unpleasant.
|
| I found it interesting & surprising to read of his character,
| having (possibly like you) only known of him as a war hero,
| and thought it worth mentioning, that's all.
|
| So no need for vicarious outrage. As you say, he's long gone.
| kylecazar wrote:
| "Bader then used this leg to mount multiple escape attempts from
| various prisons"
|
| Coming soon to Netflix...
| jonp888 wrote:
| A film was made about his life a few years after the war, which
| is now something of a classic, if only due to how often it is
| shown on British Television. It was a flop in the US though.
| chgs wrote:
| Probably because it didn't have an American saving the day
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| The screenwriters could simply insert American characters
| into the story.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Escape_(film)
| tetris11 wrote:
| We had one member of the troup that did the real life Great
| Escape visit our school.
|
| He handed out schematics of how they tunneled, their day-to-day
| logistics, communication with the outside, etc.
|
| It was a really fun talk, but it ended on a somber note where
| those who did not escape were later punished/executed in revenge
| for the escape taking place.
|
| In this context, someone asked him, "was it worth it?" and all I
| remember about his answer was him gripping his handout and giving
| a monosyllable reply.
| dataflow360 wrote:
| What syllable?
| tetris11 wrote:
| I genuinely can't remember, but it left me feeling washed
| out.
| byteknight wrote:
| Both yes and no are one syllable. Your drawn out drama-incucing
| style of writing left a huge hanger that makes it
| unpleasurable.
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| I suspect that's intentional. Not all writing aims to be
| pleasurable, and I suspect the parent comment illustrates the
| gut-wrenching pain of war really well.
|
| What do I as a reader want the answer to be? That it was
| worth the death of his friends? That he'd rather they never
| tried? No answer is happy, and I think that's somewhat the
| point. Even more touching if it's a true story, life is
| sometimes so poetic it hurts.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _What do I as a reader want the answer to be?_
|
| Whatever he feels. Would he do it again?
| pinkmuffinere wrote:
| Some writing conveys beliefs, and other writing makes
| readers think about their own beliefs. Both are valid,
| and the resulting effect may not even follow the writer's
| intention. I feel this writing mostly makes me
| interrogate my own beliefs.
| boothby wrote:
| I see "gripping his handout" as significantly more vivid than
| the uttered response -- which OP confirms to have eluded
| their memory. That's the story: the teller's reaction to the
| question was more visceral than verbal.
|
| Sometimes the truth is inherently dramatic. I know that when
| I've responded in that way -- clenching and mumbling a
| monosyllable -- the clench is honest, the syllable may be
| effectively meaningless.
| mikepurvis wrote:
| If it's the famous Great Escape about which the movie was made,
| only three men who escaped made it to freedom, and just eleven
| more were recaptured and survived to the end of the war-- the
| rest of the 77 were shot. Of those 14 survivors, most passed
| away in the 1990s, so if you actually did get to meet one,
| that's pretty neat!
|
| Certainly the depiction in the movie is that it was absolutely
| worth it to the men; maybe in practical terms it resulted in
| greater loss of life than just cooperating with the
| confinement, but there is value to the spirit in resisting evil
| that goes beyond the simple imperative to stay alive.
| hbrav wrote:
| I bet you're right about there being value to the spirit. But
| if I understand correctly escape was also regarded as a
| matter of duty. By escaping you would not only stand a chance
| of making it back to Allied lines, but you would also tie up
| German forces searching for you.
| nullbyte wrote:
| This is an awesome story
| gambiting wrote:
| I don't know, I cannot accept in my head that in one part of
| Europe Nazis were shaving men, women and children to use their
| hair as industrial filling before throwing them in gas chambers
| by the thousands, but somewhere else Nazi general was gracious
| enough to allow British troops to airdrop a prosthetic leg for
| their pilot - they even remained friends after the war! I'm sorry
| but it just sounds like.....some kind of joke? Like it happened
| in a different reality than the one that happened in Europe at
| the time? Why was that general even allowed to visit the UK and
| not in prison? Oh that's right - because Churchil has personally
| advocated against prosecuting nazi generals because it would be
| "unsporstmanlike".
|
| I'm sorry, I cannot enjoy this article in the spirit it was
| written in. I grew up next to Auschwitz and the idea of
| borderline friendly(sorry, "diplomatic") relationship with nazi
| forces makes me sick.
| appleorchard46 wrote:
| It makes the horrible things the Nazis did even more
| horrifying. It's easy to think of the Nazi regime as a pure,
| isolated evil, but when articles like this show that there was
| room for even a little humanity, it makes it clear how many
| individual choices for evil were made elsewhere every step of
| the way.
| schroeding wrote:
| They maybe just forgot the extend of it. Don't forget that many
| don't even know the difference between the "normal" (already
| incredibly horrible and vile) concentration camps like Dachau
| and the pure extermination camps like Auschwitz-Birkenau,
| Treblinka or Sobibor. The Brits and Americans only liberated
| the first kind, and it (mostly) wasn't their citizens who were
| gassed or shot by Einsatzgruppen.
|
| Also doesn't help that some think it was only done and caused
| by the SS or Hitler / Himmler / Goring, as if there was no
| connection with the remaining government, the police or the
| Reichsbahn, and as if the Wannseekonferenz[1] and
| Reichskristallnacht[2] had never happened.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wannsee_Conference, also
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URSNN5mnI2g
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kristallnacht
| simonbarker87 wrote:
| The reason the two co exist in the same regime is (awfully)
| that they didn't consider Jews to be people while they
| considered the British worthy opponents. It's horrible and
| disgusting but if one can wrap their head around the idea that
| a population can be indoctrinated into believing there are two
| levels of people (effectively people and not people) then Nazi
| Germany becomes more ... comprehensible. The shockingness of it
| doesn't go away though.
|
| I thought Churchill was against the trials because he thought
| the Nazi leadership should just simply be executed or
| imprisoned for life without the bother of a trial? Churchill
| was very much a fan of unsportsmanlike behaviour, the more
| devious the trick the better in his view.
| lovegrenoble wrote:
| Aleksey Petrovich Maresyev (1916 - 2001) was a Soviet and Russian
| military pilot who became a Soviet fighter ace during World War
| II despite becoming a double amputee.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksey_Maresyev
| xpl wrote:
| _> Bader then used this leg to mount multiple escape attempts
| from various prisons_
|
| Oh, that reminds me of the prosthetic leg joke from 'Guardians of
| the Galaxy'. So it was a reference?
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJfMSE_3iSc
| Onavo wrote:
| Pilots (that are not bombers) were treated pretty well by the
| Luftwaffe. Aviators share a comraderie that's hard to describe
| (very similar to software engineers in a sense).
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