[HN Gopher] The South Vietnamese pilot who landed a Cessna on a ...
___________________________________________________________________
The South Vietnamese pilot who landed a Cessna on a carrier to save
his family (2019)
Author : stmw
Score : 327 points
Date : 2025-01-26 00:40 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.historynet.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.historynet.com)
| gedy wrote:
| If you ever have a chance, talk to Vietnamese immigrants that you
| work with, and hear their stories of escape. Nearly everyone I've
| spoken to has a book or movie-worthy tale to tell.
|
| Many went through tough times after the war was over and left
| years later.
| wbl wrote:
| Yup: many settled in southern coastal states and endured
| vicious racism aimed at keeping them from shrimping.
| selimthegrim wrote:
| Many are still here in Louisiana and Texas. But in Louisiana
| and New Orleans the population is shrinking.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| From 2.3% in 2010 to 1.8% in 2020 of Louisiana's
| population.
| louky wrote:
| I remember seeing women on the sides of the highway in one
| part of town gathering plants to eat, there's plenty of
| edible stuff out there, and my parents telling me they were
| refugees. Must have been in '74/'75 and I was a wee lad. In a
| Southern state. My parents were PhDs from Berkley and UCLA
| who got positions in the south so it was a weird time and
| place. For everyone.
| Amezarak wrote:
| There's no doubt that racism played a role, but a lot of the
| bitterness was more related to the fact that a huge influx of
| people, some of them very desperate, arrived and worked in
| the shrimping industry for low wages and in terrible
| conditions. This cut the rest of of the labor market off at
| the knees.
|
| Suddenly a lot of people who had had the job for years, and
| had maybe been doing it for generations as a family trade,
| either lost their job or were unable to carry it out
| profitably.
| stevenwoo wrote:
| The Sympathizer/The Committed though fictional have many
| details that match the stories of different people I know, with
| the taking off from Saigon airfield while under attack from NVA
| to others escaping on a boat with only the hope of being picked
| up by friendlies of some stripe and avoiding pirates or others
| who could only escape in any case with some of their immediate
| family and had to get the rest reunited years later. Not a few
| of the ones old enough to remember the details though are
| getting scarce simply because of age (some of the people I know
| were too young to remember anything and had to rely on their
| parents memories).
| technothrasher wrote:
| I worked with a Vietnamese lady for many years. She refused to
| ever talk about her escape. She would simply only say, "I was
| very young. It was bad. I don't like to remember it."
| newsclues wrote:
| My grandmother said the same thing about the end of the
| Second World War as a young German and wouldn't elaborate.
| csomar wrote:
| The brain has this nice thing of removing traumatizing
| memories so that it can move on. Asking people about these
| things is not a good idea. Just let them recount the tales if
| they want.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| the 'luxury' apt building I live in has lots of Ukrainians and
| Russians (amongst the tech, influencers and onlyfans merchants,
| the only stateside people that can seemingly afford this
| location)
|
| the _men_ have really harrowing stories of escaping their
| respective countries since they weren 't allowed to leave,
| being draftable
|
| and its all very current and ongoing
| reaperducer wrote:
| _the 'luxury' apt building I live in has lots of Ukrainians
| and Russians... the men have really harrowing stories of
| escaping their respective countries since they weren't
| allowed to leave, being draftable_
|
| My next-door neighbor is one of them.
|
| We were on nodding terms in the hallway for about six months
| after he moved in, then one day I saw him at the trash chute
| wearing a "Fuck Putin" shirt, and I asked him about it. He
| started to tell me his story, and then suddenly stopped,
| saying he didn't want to talk about it anymore.
|
| Based on the start of the story, I can understand him not
| wanting to finish it.
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| Were they Russian or Ukrainian? My casual understanding is
| that the draft is much more significant in Ukraine,
| although it's hard to find details of it and the penalties
| for dodgers.
| StefanBatory wrote:
| Russians could leave way easier than Ukrainians, though.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| I can confirm friends coming in/out of Russia without much
| change. All IT workers are exempted from mobilization.
| People after 30 yo are safe from draft. Yonger are supposed
| to be draftable but I know someone who is 2x yo and went to
| visit Russia, fly in and out with no issues. The only
| difference is airplane tickets more expensive now.
|
| Meanwhile men in Ukraine can be mobilized on the street and
| good luck leaving the country
| StefanBatory wrote:
| As unfair as that is, Russians can still rely on
| basically volunteers who an average choose to be there,
| Ukrainians do not. I've heard many horror stories from
| there. About men who are basically hiding in cellars so
| that the recruteers won't pull them off the streets.
|
| Fucked situation all around. I want to blame Russians as
| the only ones responsible for that, I guess. (As in they
| started this. Not saying Ukraine is crystal clear with
| many issues they have with the army, but still I can't
| blame them.)
|
| I'm Pole, so it's more personal for me. Knowing if I was
| born a bit more to the East, I'd be awaiting my death
| (and in agony).
| throwaway290 wrote:
| as a Russian, 100% Moscow started this, no need to pick
| words carefully. "Ukraine invited attack by doing
| something Russia didn't like" is ridiculous.
|
| And as a Pole you of course know that Putin's "there are
| our people there we want to liberate" is the same logic
| Russia used to invade Poland before. Twice
| StefanBatory wrote:
| sorry, I was unclear - I wanted to refer to the fact that
| Ukrainian army might be a little heavyhanded on things
| like draft - for understandable reasons - not to the war
| itself
|
| that is only and purely on Russia and I cannot argue
| otherwise in good faith
| codezero wrote:
| Ukraine was invaded and is defending its sovereignty
| against a nuclear power.
| JusticeJuice wrote:
| > All IT workers are exempted from mobilization.
|
| This isn't entirely true. A friend of mine (who works in
| IT) got drafted. In 3 days he ended up getting a
| pregnancy certificate faked, so he and his girlfriend
| could get legally married quickly (for immigration
| options elsewhere) - and fled the country.
|
| The draft is unequal, they are concerned about their IT
| worker shortage. The majority of drafting is happening in
| impoverished areas of the country, and ethnic minorities.
| Often people think they'll just be doing a driving job or
| something, and end up in combat. But nobody is truly
| safe. Your friend is taking a large gamble by visiting.
| throwaway290 wrote:
| Don't conflate things.
|
| mobilization is not the same as mandatory draft. draft it
| still applies to all including IT workers just like
| before the war. But you are "not home" to get the
| povestka you are fine. Also almost everyone seems to have
| some sort of exemption via employment or whatever. No one
| snatches people on the streets or when exiting the
| country like in Ukraine
|
| I don't think I heard of anyone drafted to war but I know
| many russians knowingly went to war to make money on
| contract basis (which is also not the same as mandatory
| draft).
|
| Now if mobilization happens they would be more aggressive
| but as I say IT workers are officially exempt from it.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| ok
| wazoox wrote:
| That applies equally to most people having been through war and
| becoming refugees. I know a couple of people who fled from
| Afghanistan, and that wasn't exactly a cakewalk. Like "my
| brother was forced to enroll in the talibans and got killed, so
| they ordered my father to provide another fighter, so he
| decided to make me escape to Iran instead at age 13, from where
| I walked / hitchhiked to Sweden in 2 years"
| whimsicalism wrote:
| was the taliban going to follow into all of the EU countries
| in between Iran and Sweden?
| frozenport wrote:
| I did speak to folks on the North Vietnamese side. I kinda found
| it really interesting.
|
| They read these stories of escape as emblematic of the southern
| government's cowardice rather than heroism. In some ways these
| are stories of active military deserting their posts.
|
| It was no surprise to these North Vietnamese patriots that they
| triumphed.
| duxup wrote:
| I like to think if I saw an opponent escaping a lost war with
| his family I would understand that someone who served is not a
| coward.
| bluGill wrote:
| Not a good idea since they might be regrouping to fight
| another day.
|
| war is aweful.
| snozolli wrote:
| Given the acts of brutality committed by the VC against those
| who didn't willingly join their cause, I wouldn't have stuck
| around with my family, either. One example from, as I recall,
| early in the division was burning alive the mayor of a village
| that refused to adopt communism. These things never get talked
| about and the only reason I've even heard of this was from
| listening to an interview on Dan Carlin's Hardcore History
| Addendum podcast.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > I wouldn't have stuck around with my family, either
|
| Which is a major plot point of stories like Handmaid's Tale
| where you get caught in a civil war with opposing views of
| the territory you're in when it starts. You didn't start the
| war, but now you're an enemy for just living in your home. Do
| you just give up your beliefs or do you try to get out of
| there?
|
| All war is hell, but civil wars especially
| p3rls wrote:
| It's true-- just like in Marvel the comic book movie, where
| the bad guy causes upwards of 50% casualties on the entire
| planet!
| whimsicalism wrote:
| the US literally industrialized the process of burning alive
| people in vietnam who didn't support the colonial government.
| would love a source on the mayor claim
| snozolli wrote:
| You're a perfect example of why reporting about Vietnam was
| horribly broken. We all know about the atrocities committed
| by the Americans, but nobody understands how horrendous the
| VC were, and the direct threat they presented to those
| conquered.
|
| I've already given you the source for the mayor story, but
| you're not _actually_ interested in it, are you? You 'll
| stay blissfully ignorant with false plausible deniability.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| do you have a source that's written aka not a podcast?
| googling the mayor burning claim just brings me to your
| comment
|
| even just a transcript of the episode you're discussing.
| generally i find if someone responds with ire rather than
| a link, the event usually did not happen as they
| remembered it
| sillywalk wrote:
| Wikipedia has an article, with links to sources. I think
| the main source is Douglas Pike's _The Vietcong Strategy
| of Terror_ [0]. Another Vietnam Expert, Bernard Fall,
| documents some of it in _Vietnam Witness_.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viet_Cong_and_People%27s_Ar
| my_...
|
| [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20230405095258/https://vv
| a.vietn...
| akdor1154 wrote:
| I disagree with whoever is downvoting you - what you describe
| is exactly how this would have been presented to northern
| soldiers and civilians, whether or not it's true.
| refurb wrote:
| Considering the hundreds of thousands (millions?) that were
| imprisoned after the war for any suspected contact with the
| Americans or South Vietnamese government, and the horrific
| conditions they were held under (forced labor, malnutrition,
| disease, death) they maybe shouldn't act so surprised?
|
| Even today in Vietnam, these families are still "marked" by the
| regime and not allowed to serve in government roles for _three
| generations_. It 's a blood liable.
| krustyburger wrote:
| What a story! Just wild that so many helicopters were destroyed.
| But everyone on board the ship must have been so gratified that
| all five children survived.
| speed_spread wrote:
| As the war was ending, a lot of of these choppers wouldn't have
| been required anymore and would have ended up in some graveyard
| anyway.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| Fair point, but that hadn't yet been determined and the
| flight chief and captain were taking a severe career risk
| (rightly IMO) in making that call.
| dylan604 wrote:
| No simulator to practice on, just the will to protect his wife
| and family. and I'm assuming a pair of giant steel...
| divbzero wrote:
| ... wings.
| echoangle wrote:
| The wings were aluminum though, not steel.
| usrusr wrote:
| Your comment reads a lot like you were assuming that he was a
| layperson who never flew a plane before. The article looks as
| of it was deliberately staying ambiguous about that part. But
| the complete absence of any statement about his previous flight
| experience or lack thereof suggests that he was a pilot, but
| they prefer not to talk too much about that part for the sake
| of a gripping story. (it does say so in the title, even if a
| reader eager of sensationalism might very well argue "that was
| the flight that made him a pilot")
|
| Zero experience in carrier operations is super-impressive
| nonetheless, but it completely pales next to the drama of
| setting out into nowhere overloaded and with a half-empty fuel
| tank. The airspeed delta between a Chessna and a carrier
| steaming into the wind is so low that the landing itself really
| would not be so that impressive. Impressive bit not crazy
| impressive.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > Your comment reads a lot like you were assuming that he was
| a layperson who never flew a plane before.
|
| You're reading something that's just not there then. I
| clearly left out the details as TFA clearly states he was a
| pilot (you just need to have read it and not skimmed). What I
| was referring to was landing on an airstrip on the ground is
| drastically different than landing on moving landing strip
| that also has hidden gotchas for trained pilots. Doing that
| for the first time as a pilot is one thing. Doing that for
| the first time with your wife and kids onboard is a whole
| other level. Your comment, however, is a whole other level
| going the other direction
| mannykannot wrote:
| As the article mentions, the most dangerous aspect of the
| landing may have been the turbulence and downwash over the
| fantail. Given that this was a STOL airplane (and also given
| that the pilot would have had no experience landing on a
| target moving at almost his stall speed) it might have been
| safer if the ship just pointed its flight deck into the wind.
|
| I recall from flight school one instructor who liked to
| demonstrate that the aging Cessna 150 he was often assigned
| to could be landed in the width of a runway (as performed at
| an intersection.)
| dredmorbius wrote:
| _it might have been safer if the ship just pointed its
| flight deck into the wind_
|
| Reading TFA, that's precisely what occurred:
|
| _Chambers ordered his chief engineer to transfer the
| ship's electric load to the emergency diesel engines and
| make steam for 25 knots (29 mph)... The captain turned his
| ship into the wind to prepare for a fixed-wing landing....
| Buang lowered the Bird Dog's flaps and approached in a
| shallow descent at a speed of 60 knots (69 mph). With the
| ship providing an estimated 40 knots (46 mph) of headwind
| to aid the landing, the light plane slowly caught up._
|
| 15 knot headwind plus ship's speed gave 40 kt landing wind,
| aircraft landed at stall speed of 60 kt airspeed, giving 20
| kt to kill on landing. That was a risk on a slick deck, and
| from the accompanying video the landing was fairly far down
| the deck, but had sufficient braking distance.
| mannykannot wrote:
| I mean just pointing its flight deck into the wind with
| sufficient speed to hold it there, as opposed to heading
| into it at 25 knots (which required firing up six
| boilers, so I assume it was not initially steaming at
| that speed.)
|
| It was always possible that the airplane could have gone
| off the bow with insufficient speed to do a go-around,
| but it might also be the case that the shallow approach
| was a consequence of trying to land on a target moving
| away, and that made it difficult to spot-land. My guess
| is the latter, though of course I can't prove it.
|
| With a 40 kt wind down the deck, one would need the
| brakes to avoid being blown backwards off it, or into a
| reverse groundloop which might well lead to the same
| outcome.
| usrusr wrote:
| Even just holding position would give some downdraft,
| from those 15 kt of wind. With 2/3 of airspeed
| compensated by the ship moving into the wind, and an
| airplane already quite good at short runway landing, the
| descent angle relative to the moving runway should easily
| be steep enough to stay clear of the downdraft.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| his wife and family would likely have been much safer not on
| the plane
| duxup wrote:
| What an amazing story.
|
| That would make a great short film.
| Aken wrote:
| This was really fun to read!
|
| My in-laws are immigrants from Vietnam who left during the war.
| These stories feel a little closer to home than they would have
| before meeting them.
| bn-l wrote:
| What a moment for America. How many countries would push $10
| million worth of aircraft (1970s money) to save civilians?
| esperent wrote:
| I've always wondered about this event: did someone go against
| orders to do this? Did they get in trouble?
| duxup wrote:
| I suspect someone could make up some sort of violation, but
| it seems like it is unlikely there's a specific order
| preventing them. Ship's captain is going to have a lot of
| leeway to complete his mission. Punishing a high ranking
| officer in their efforts to save allies would not look great,
| and at the end of the Vietnam War, I'm not sure who was
| interested in that.
| rl3 wrote:
| It's right there in the article:
|
| _From the bridge Chambers quickly consulted task force
| commander Adm. William Harris, who was at his battle station
| below deck._
|
| _"The admiral ordered me to tell the Bird Dog to ditch,"
| Chambers later recalled._ [...]
|
| _Assuming he would be court martialed, Chambers ordered
| those helicopters thrown overboard as well. He later told
| interviewers that since he expected to be deposed by
| prosecutors, he turned away from the action to avoid seeing
| exactly how many were pushed into the sea._ [...]
|
| _Chambers kept his job as the aircraft carrier's captain and
| was later promoted to rear admiral; he retired in 1984.
| Nobody was prosecuted for the estimated $10 million loss of
| the helicopters that Chambers ordered overboard._
| brookst wrote:
| The article talks about the ships captain expecting to be
| court-martialed for it, but ultimately being promoted (not
| necessarily for this act).
| refurb wrote:
| There was a very small presence of Americans in South Vietnam
| at the time - around 5,000. Mostly US government workers
| (e.g. USAID), CIA and some military.
|
| When the US disengaged in 1973, it left most of the military
| equipment and gave it to South Vietnam.
|
| So most of the helicopters and such that fled to the US fleet
| were South Vietnamese aircraft, not US aircraft.
|
| So I assume the US has pretty much written them off before
| that.
| RajT88 wrote:
| I am pretty jaded. This story really touched me; Vietnam was
| ugly. Really ugly. You don't expect to read these sorts of
| stories.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _How many countries would push $10 million worth of aircraft
| (1970s money) to save civilians?_
|
| I know anti-American sentiment is very trendy on HN, but I
| found this interesting:
|
| Sirius Satellite Radio runs 1970's episodes of American Top 40
| with Casey Casem on Sundays. A few weeks ago I was surprised to
| hear a spoken-word piece called "Americans" by a Canadian named
| Byron MacGregor was a top-40 hit. Here's a sample of the
| lyrics: When the railways of France, Germany
| and India were breaking down through age It was the
| Americans who rebuilt them When the Pennsylvania
| Railroad and the New York Central went broke Nobody
| loaned them an old caboose Both are still broke I
| can name you five thousand times When the Americans
| raced to the help of other people in trouble Can you
| name me even one time When someone else raced to the
| Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside
| help Even during the San Francisco earthquake
|
| You can read the full lyrics here:
|
| https://genius.com/Byron-macgregor-americans-lyrics
| bradrn wrote:
| Apparently it was by Gordon Sinclair originally:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Americans_(commentary)
| keybored wrote:
| "Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the
| decadent war mongering Americans
|
| I'd like to just see one of those countries that is gloating
| over the erosion of the United States Dollar build its own
| airplanes
|
| Come on, let's hear it
|
| Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the
| Boeing jumbo jet
|
| The Lockheed Tri-star or the Douglas-10?
|
| If so, why don't they fly them?"
|
| I found this so-called song hosted on the "Vietnam War Song
| Project" YT account. Yeah, why were people against the
| Vietnam War? When America had _planes?_ Ridiculous
| priorities.
| pjc50 wrote:
| > Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal
| the Boeing jumbo jet
|
| Guess somebody hasn't heard of Airbus. Or, these days,
| Embraer. If other countries didn't have competitive
| aircraft the US wouldn't feel the need for tariffs.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Guess somebody hasn 't heard of Airbus_
|
| This was written and published before Airbus' first plane
| was in the air, and decades before Embraer had a large
| passenger jet.
|
| It also specifically states "jumbo jet." Does Embraer
| even have a jumbo today? The largest one listed on
| Wikipedia is 124 passengers, and that only came out in
| 2004.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Date check: https://www.newsbusters.org/blogs/nb/brent-
| baker/2014/07/04/...
|
| So that was 1973, in between the first test flight and
| entry into service of the A300. I might argue that one
| reason Americans get a lot of stick from the rest of the
| world is exactly this kind of "America number one" stuff.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I found this so-called song hosted on the "Vietnam War
| Song Project" YT account. Yeah, why were people against the
| Vietnam War? When America had planes? Ridiculous
| priorities._
|
| This was not about the Vietnam war. Nor was it written by
| an American.
| keybored wrote:
| When it was released, the part about "war-mongering
| Americans", and the apparent association with the war
| (was Ride of the Valkyries about the Vietnam War?).
|
| Do you understand the concept of associations?
|
| > Nor was it written by an American.
|
| And who said it was?
| reaperducer wrote:
| _When it was released, the part about "war-mongering
| Americans", and the apparent association with the war
| (was Ride of the Valkyries about the Vietnam War?)._
|
| The author, himself, said it was not about the Vietnam
| War. You can wish as hard as you want, but it doesn't
| change the facts.
|
| I hate to break it to you, but America and the rest of
| the world had been through a lot more than just the
| Vietnam War. You just insist on making that association,
| even though the lyrics explicitly talk about other
| crises.
| keybored wrote:
| Authorial intent only goes so far. You release a song
| during the tail-end of the Vietnam War and decry the fact
| that people are decrying the "war mongering" Americans?
| Well that's the obvious association.
|
| But authorial intent can definitely be pinned on
| juxtaposing whatever "war mongering" with apparently
| making great planes. I don't know what kind of
| harebrained idea that was.
|
| > I hate to break it to you, but America and the rest of
| the world had been through a lot more than just the
| Vietnam War.
|
| You hate to break it to me? That's a bizarre statement.
| I'm not jilted by anyone over that war.
|
| And the Vietnam War, again, was happening when the
| commentary was released and when the spoken-word song was
| released. Obvious associations.
|
| Did Springsteen mean rah-rah America with his _Born in
| the USA_? No but it was still used for that purpose by
| some people.
| relix wrote:
| I read worryingly little (no?) counter to the sentiment
| expressed by the lyrics as part of your message and the
| comments here. And the implication that people in other
| countries wouldn't spend $10MM of government funds to save a
| family instead of watching them ditch in the water is
| ridiculous.
|
| - "The World" has jumped in to help Americans often. It's
| just that USA, due to their advantageous geographical
| position, never being bombed to bits, and having economic and
| military absolute supremacy, hasn't often been in a position
| of need where other countries can help out significantly.
|
| - An example of where the world has helped significantly:
| Post 9/11 wars
|
| - A recent example of when the world has helped: Californian
| wild fires
|
| - And separately from that, of those "five thousand times"
| where the USA has helped other people in trouble, I guarantee
| a lot of those actually had considerable benefits for USA,
| meaning it wasn't a charity thing but the USA got something
| they wanted out of it, as well. Which is fine but let's not
| kid ourselves about those motives.
|
| Just opening Wikipedia on the San Francisco earthquake, under
| the heading "Relief" it gives some indication of the
| international support given:
|
| > During the first few days after news of the disaster
| reached the rest of the world, relief efforts reached over
| $5,000,000, equivalent to $169,560,000 in 2023. London raised
| hundreds of thousands of dollars. Individual citizens and
| businesses donated large sums of money for the relief effort:
| Standard Oil and Andrew Carnegie each gave $100,000; the
| Dominion of Canada made a special appropriation of $100,000;
| and even the Bank of Canada in Ottawa gave $25,000.
|
| And if we're allowed to go back as far as the San Francisco
| earthquake to "judge" the world, maybe we can extend that
| just a little further towards independence, where France
| provided significant support to the fledgling nation.
|
| "The Americans", is frankly, ridiculous, and anyone
| subscribing to the sentiments within betrays the same (and
| wrong) isolationist understanding of the world as they
| ironically indeed blame others to have.
| StefanBatory wrote:
| > The World" has jumped in to help Americans often. It's
| just that USA, due to their advantageous geographical
| position, never being bombed to bits, and having economic
| and military absolute supremacy, hasn't often been in a
| position of need where other countries can help out
| significantly.
|
| The only time Article 5 was called, was by America... And
| most of the Europe obliged.
|
| Danes too. Who are now being threatened by the new
| administration.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _The only time Article 5 was called, was by America_
|
| 30 years after this was written, so not relevant.
|
| _Who are now being threatened by the new
| administration._
|
| 50 years after this was written, so not relevant.
| mp05 wrote:
| "Threatened"? That's a stretch. From the AP:
|
| "I'm not going to commit to that," Trump said, when asked
| if he would rule out the use of the military. "It might
| be that you'll have to do something. The Panama Canal is
| vital to our country." He added, "We need Greenland for
| national security purposes."
|
| This is just Trump being Trump, blustery and vague. It
| barely qualifies as saber-rattling. The guy loves to
| posture, but the level of hysteria around it is absurd.
| I'm not a fan of this kind of rhetoric, but Europeans
| acting like this is a genuine military threat instead of
| just laughing at him is ridiculous.
|
| Anyways, what were we talking about? Something
| inspirational I recall.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| > This is just Trump being Trump, blustery and vague. It
| barely qualifies as saber-rattling. The guy loves to
| posture, but the level of hysteria around it is absurd.
|
| It used to be posturing and blustering around acquiring
| territories was absurd.
|
| People are hysterical because they aren't sure if Trump
| is being serious or if he just is sh*t talking.
| Greenlanders who feel like they might be invaded by the
| US aren't just being sensitive snowflakes.
| mp05 wrote:
| I encourage you to read the recent Reuters article on the
| topic: https://www.reuters.com/world/us-says-it-has-no-
| plans-increa...
|
| Danish PM Frederiksen: "I cannot imagine the United
| States would use military intervention in Greenland, and
| it is up to the people of Greenland to decide what they
| want."
|
| Oh, interesting. I think that's called self-
| determination, a key underpinning of democracy.
|
| > Greenlanders who feel like they might be invaded by the
| US aren't just being sensitive snowflakes.
|
| Greenland is a critical strategic asset, and Denmark is
| incapable of defending it or its people. If Greenlanders
| are worried about being "invaded" by the U.S., they
| should be a hell of a lot more worried about Russia or
| China making moves in the Arctic. The world would
| objectively be safer if the U.S. took custodianship of
| Greenland, full stop.
|
| I'm no policy buff, but I'd bet that if someone were
| willing to make a rational deal, like perhaps allowing
| the U.S. to offer security in exchange for a slice of
| Greenland's massive untapped resources, this entire
| situation would be resolved, and everyone would be better
| off.
|
| Again, I stress that the rhetoric around what is clearly
| a negotiation is not my style of doing business, but no
| serious person can argue that something has to be done
| about securing Greenland, nor do they think Trump is
| actually going to use military force.
|
| Edit: I must insist that I'm not trying to be
| inflammatory at all. I'm sincerely concerned about this
| geopolitical implications of this potential attack vector
| and it feels like pride is getting in the way of our
| security in the West.
| mmooss wrote:
| > This is just Trump being Trump, blustery and vague.
|
| Still not taking him seriously? He's followed through on
| many boundry-destroying actions in just a week, not to
| mention the prior 8 years. Remember the raid on the
| Capitol to stop ratification of the election, and he just
| pardoned the attackers.
|
| I think people are afraid to take him seriously.
| Toutouxc wrote:
| That's... surprisingly bad.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| The US was joined in Vietnam, context of this article, by
| France (whose problem it was to begin with), Canada,
| Australia, the UK, South Korea, Thailand, the Philippines,
| Taiwan, and other states.
|
| The US was at the time in military alliances with much of
| Western Europe (NATO, 1949), South Pacific (SEATO, 1955), and
| an intelligence alliance (Five Eyes, 1941), amongst numerous
| other alliances and strategic partnerships.
|
| The US was born in battle with the assistance of France.
| Lafayette and the Statue of Liberty attest to this.
|
| At the time _Americans_ was written (1974), the US was the
| world 's leading superpower. It's not terribly surprising
| that _in general_ aid flowed _from_ the US _to_ other states.
| But the flow and alliances were far from one-way even then.
|
| Your song, as with your broader point and follow-ups, is an
| extraordinary misreading and misrepresentation of history.
| sillywalk wrote:
| Canada didn't fight in Vietnam.
|
| Canada was part of the International Control Commision
| (along with Poland & India). Canada sold the US a couple $
| Billion in weapons and allowed the US to test defoliating
| agents on a base in New Brunswick, and Canadians joined the
| US Military to fight in Vietnam.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| My error, apologies.
| mmooss wrote:
| Also, all of NATO triggered Article 5 (mutual defense) for
| the only time ever, after 9-11, and they went to
| Afghanistan. The UK and other countries, though not as
| many, went to Iraq. The competition with China depends
| heavily on alliances with Japan, S. Korea, the Philippines,
| Australia, and others.
|
| In fact, no country depends on and utilizes its allies more
| than the US.
| p3rls wrote:
| Eh, even nazis did stuff like this:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia_incident
|
| Saving civilians is incumbent on you in war whenever possible.
| Not like North Vietnam is going to start doing some strafing
| runs on your fleet either for an excuse.
| Hnrobert42 wrote:
| So, 2?
| dmurray wrote:
| No, there were dozens of examples during that North
| Atlantic campaign.
|
| The U-boats would presumably have continued to rescue enemy
| military and civilian survivors throughout the war, if it
| hadn't been for the war crimes of the USAF which bombed the
| rescuers.
| p3rls wrote:
| You think only two countries _would_ destroy a few
| helicopters ' worth of value to rescue allied civilians
| during wartime evacuations where they're not under fire? I
| suspect we'd be pushing a catalogue of 100+ countries.
| Loads of examples from WW2 like Dunkirk/Operation Hannibal
| where you see the sacrifice of material for civilians.
| synecdoche wrote:
| 1. Survivorship bias 2. Countries didn't do it. Individuals
| did.
| keybored wrote:
| I don't know. My first instinct isn't to assume that the first
| anecdote I find of something is unique to some entity.
| pjc50 wrote:
| From reading bits of WW2 naval history, it seems "push aircraft
| off the carrier in an emergency" was more doctrine than you'd
| expect. Because the fuel is such a fire risk.
|
| The worst-case scenario would be _not_ pushing the aircraft
| off, the Cessna attempts a landing anyway, collides, and sets
| the entire carrier deck ablaze. Hundreds dead and the carrier
| potentially lost.
| maxglute wrote:
| Not to place value on the act. IIRC Mass produced Vietnam Hueys
| are "only" 4M each in current USD and many were heavily used /
| deprecated.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| it does sound like they were legitimately afraid he would crash
| the plane into the ship otherwise
| Invictus0 wrote:
| Why couldn't the helicopters just take off and hover for a while?
| duxup wrote:
| I assume getting them ready to fly, crews, and etc was going to
| take a while to launch them all.
| brookst wrote:
| And they weren't useful anymore. In a time of crisis, that
| would just complicate things. Better to simplify.
| Invictus0 wrote:
| An aircraft carrier can't launch 5 helicopters in less than
| an hour?
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Not if they're cramming them as close as they can go to
| make space. As soon as they pushed the first ones off, more
| landed.
|
| > Immediately, five more airborne Huey pilots took
| advantage of the cleared runway to land and disembark their
| passengers.
|
| Basically, the situation in the pic at
| https://www.forcesnews.com/news/uss-theodore-roosevelt-
| chang..., but with aircraft instead of cars.
|
| They were all gonna wind up scrapped or sent to the
| boneyard (https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:US_Navy_0
| 40204-N-312...) anyways.
| dredmorbius wrote:
| To land where?
|
| It was an emergency situation. The carrier was the only
| safe landing zone for hundreds, if not thousands, of miles.
|
| The choppers had been flying at or above max capacity for
| long distance, and would have been low on fuel already.
| Fueling them on the flight deck would not only have taken
| more time but presented its own significant risk of fire
| particularly in the confusion and nonstandard ops
| environment.
| Etheryte wrote:
| The choppers were bunched up as closely together as possible,
| many probably on their tail end of fuel as they'd be landed in
| order of least fuel remaining. Figuring all of that out in a
| under an hour without creating any risk to the civilians who
| were already everywhere in and between would have been nigh
| impossible.
| adamtaylor_13 wrote:
| The guides at the Naval Aviation Museum in Pensacola are
| incredible at what they do, and they were the first to introduce
| me to this story.
|
| What's especially wild is that we actually have footage of this
| event.
|
| I highly recommend the Naval Aviation Museum if you ever find
| yourself in Pensacola or nearby!
| dreamcompiler wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7C3X5NTzBk
| cushychicken wrote:
| That's a bucket list museum destination for me.
|
| They have one of the SBD Dauntless dive bombers at the museum
| that sunk a Japanese carrier at Midway. Still has holes in it
| from AA fire if I recall correctly.
| adamtaylor_13 wrote:
| You are correct!
|
| Any person who enjoys military/naval history will love this
| museum. It's very well maintained and just has some of the
| coolest stuff in it.
| cushychicken wrote:
| Getting to see a Blue Angels practice for free is just the
| cherry on top.
| akdor1154 wrote:
| Reading anything about this war makes me tear up, and I'm not
| even Vietnamese.
|
| I strongly recommend anyone who travels to Ha Noi to visit Hoa Lo
| prison - it's an excellent exhibition that shows the horror of
| both colonialism and war, and i think is made in a genuine good
| faith effort to promote peace into the future.
| danparsonson wrote:
| I didn't make it there, but the Cu Chi Tunnels near Ho Chi Minh
| City were also a sobering experience
| dang wrote:
| Related:
|
| _A South Vietnamese Air Force Officer and a Crazy Carrier
| Landing (2015)_ - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17991021 -
| Sept 2018 (67 comments)
|
| I vaguely recall that there have been other threads about this
| too. Can anyone find them?
|
| (Reposts are fine after a year or so; links to past threads are
| just to satisfy extra-curious readers)
| NaOH wrote:
| Related:
|
| _How a Vietnamese helicopter pilot saved his family_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9462885 - April 2015 (15
| comments)
| dang wrote:
| Thanks--I think that's the story I was remembering.
|
| If I'm getting this right, these are two different stories
| involving different pilots and different aircraft but they
| happened on the same day (April 29, 1975)!
| stmw wrote:
| dang - sorry, OP here, wasn't aware of those - thanks for
| satisfying the extra-curious
| whyenot wrote:
| As I read this article, with its meandering narrative and
| digressions, I kept getting frustrated and thinking to myself
| "get to the point!"
|
| This says more about me than any flaws with article.
| syspec wrote:
| It really does.
| tim333 wrote:
| Same reaction - I just scrolled down past the meanderings to
| see what happened.
| genedan wrote:
| My dad was one these ARVN soldiers. In the final days of the war
| he and his drill sergeant stole a helicopter as Saigon fell and
| flew west, expecting to keep fighting. They wound up in a refugee
| camp in Thailand and eventually made it to the US. He wouldn't
| see his family again until Clinton normalized relations with
| Vietnam 20 years later.
|
| In those final moments, soldiers who knew how to fly took
| whatever aircraft they could get their hands on, (Chinooks,
| Hueys, Cessnas, etc.) and flew aimlessly, hoping to run into
| friendly forces along the way before their fuel ran out.
| refurb wrote:
| People get so tangled up in the geopolitics of these types of
| conflicts, and forget that every person the war touched has a
| personal story.
|
| I've known quite a few Vietnamese who lived through the
| conflict and their stories, no matter how lucky they were, the
| stories are incredible and hard to comprehend, no matter which
| side and whether they suffered horribly or made it out real
| relatively unscathed.
|
| Whether fleeing at a moments notice from your country of birth,
| never knowing where you are going or whether you'll ever
| return. Or even the stories of people seeing the end and
| planning in advance what they will need and how to make sure
| family is ok.
|
| Then you think about the scale of it and that tens of millions
| of humans went through it and it's impossible to comprehend the
| scale of it.
|
| What is really remarkable is the resiliency of humans. You
| speak to people who went through it and realize many have the
| perspective of "you did what you had to do" and "its a part of
| my life that is over now", but try and imagine how hard it must
| be to live in a country of relative peace and see all these
| people around you who have never, and will never, go through
| anything similar, and try and have it all make sense.
|
| It's also really fascinating talking to people who stayed in
| South Vietnam after. The entire system is reset. The police,
| the government, even where you get your food is swept away and
| rebuilt. I've noticed many people thrive on rumors as the
| government isn't known for transparency. Days after the war
| order is restored and you hear rumors of what will come.
| Neighbors gossip, you do your best to prepare and wait.
| arrowsmith wrote:
| > It's also really fascinating talking to people who stayed
| in South Vietnam after. The entire system is reset.
|
| It took me a while to appreciate the significance of renaming
| Saigon to Ho Chi Minh City. I've lived in HCMC (although I'm
| not Vietnamese) and the renaming is actually controversial to
| this day, although most Vietnamese know better than to speak
| up about it.
|
| Basically, imagine if Russia conquered Ukraine and then
| renamed Kyiv to "Vladimir Putin City".
| lr1970 wrote:
| > Basically, imagine if Russia conquered Ukraine and then
| renamed Kyiv to "Vladimir Putin City".
|
| This is really a poor analogy. Kyiv is the birthplace of
| ancient Russia (Kyiv Rus) and for both Ukrainians and
| Russians it is like Jerusalem for Jews and Arabs. It is
| easier to imagine renaming Moscow into Zelensky City than
| Kyiv into Putin.
| arrowsmith wrote:
| It's a good analogy because to rename Ukraine's capital
| city after its conqueror would be a gigantic "fuck you"
| to the people of Ukraine, rubbing salt into the fresh
| wounds of their conquest, which is exactly what North
| Vietnam did to the South.
|
| You're just doing the typical HN thing of responding to
| an analogy by pointing out differences that are
| irrelevant to the point of the analogy.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> capital city after its conqueror would be a gigantic
| "fuck you" to the people
|
| As how most every port city in North America is named by
| whatever western explorer first put it on a map? From
| Botany Bay to Vancouver, Los Angeles and even Virginia
| USA, placenames are pulled from the culture of the
| conquerors. Only when one gets into the hinterlands do
| local names appear.
| woodruffw wrote:
| Manhattan?
| simplicio wrote:
| Eh? There's a ton of Native American place-names on the
| East Coast? Including at least three States.
| selectodude wrote:
| What white man is Chicago named after?
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Well, you touch on a pattern: costal cities are named by
| European explorers on ships. Wikipedia states that the
| first use of "Chicago" was by the explorer La Salle, who
| was on foot. Explorers on foot are much more likely to
| use names derived from local language, Canada/Kanata
| being probably the most famous example. But areas mapped
| and explored by explorers on ships (ports/mountains and
| such) are generally given European names.
| LakesAndTrees wrote:
| Except Ukraine is a sovereign nation - much like Russia
| (which in today's form does not hold any reasonable claim
| to Kyiv) - and renaming either nations capital city to
| satisfy some man's thirst for legacy would be equally
| vulgar. The analogy holds pretty well, from where I'm
| standing.
| mantas wrote:
| And then Muscovites stole Rus name and tried to pretend
| they're the leaders of pan(east)slavism. Probably one of
| the reasons for the outgoing war. Moscow wants to be the
| real Kiev. The only way is to destroy it.
| ernst_klim wrote:
| That's a strange historical revisionism in Ukraine.
| Traditionally, Rus history is considered to begin with
| Ladoga, then Rurik moved to Novgorod, and only later his
| successors moved to Kiev.
|
| Saying that one true Rus is Kiev and not Novgorod or
| Moskow is rather a modern Ukrainian national myth. All
| and neither were true Rus.
| philwelch wrote:
| Also the Rus were Norse warlords who conquered those
| lands.
| skhr0680 wrote:
| Historically, I think it's akin to when Russia conquered
| Russia and renamed St. Petersburg to Leningrad
| arrowsmith wrote:
| Stalingrad, Leopoldville, Karl-Marx-Stadt,
| Constantinople. Many such cases!
| LtWorf wrote:
| > Constantinople
|
| I think it's not the same if you build a new city :)
| arrowsmith wrote:
| Didn't he rename the existing city of Byzantium?
| myflash13 wrote:
| Makes me wonder what a hypothetical "fall of Kyiv" would look
| like today.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| That would prempt a Polish invasion and reconquest.
| rocqua wrote:
| What?
|
| I don't think poland has any chance to win against Russia,
| and I don't believe NATO would support an offensive, or even
| help defend Poland if Poland started it. And it seems
| implausible that Poland doesn't realize this, or is crazy
| enough to take the risk.
| Ylpertnodi wrote:
| Russia is not showing itself to be particularly not good at
| war. And drones suck up the meat attacks. Best thing Poland
| could do is parachute into crimea and watch the
| negotiations from afar. Everyone else needs to start
| training their meat (to die valiantly) two years ago.
| StefanBatory wrote:
| Last thing that we would want in a case like that is even
| more destabilization.
|
| Honestly at best I do imagine trying to set a puppet govt as
| a buffer, but outright annexing that is so dumb of a thing
| that I can't even get started.
| pjc50 wrote:
| Something close to what we saw in the early days of the war
| when it nearly happened: huge numbers of Ukranians streaming
| across the European borders.
|
| Once Ukraine surrendered there would then be a question of
| whether to allow "free Ukranian" forces to operate from inside
| NATO, or arrest them. Would there be a series of escalating
| incidents towards a direct NATO-Russia war?
| lukan wrote:
| Very different, as friendly land is not so far away and no
| water in between.
|
| Look for fall of Kabul, if you are looking for dramatic scenes.
| bhasi wrote:
| Great to see a story about the USS Midway. It is currently
| decommissioned and permanently docked in San Diego as a museum
| for the public. I've been there - on the very landing strip seen
| in the photos. Really humbled to have visited such a key part of
| US history.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| One of the saddest scenes I've witnessed was a march in Paris in
| 2005 where there were a few hundred south Vietnamese former up
| marching behind their former flag to a memorial. The thought of
| everything being lost was quiet strong.
| sinuhe69 wrote:
| The photo of a man carrying a baby and a woman by his side in the
| article is not of Buang Ly. The naval institute even has a video
| of the actual landing here:
|
| https://www.facebook.com/NavalInstitute/videos/1638823169892...
| larusso wrote:
| I've been to the Midway twice and it's the first time I hear the
| story. Must have overlooked an exposition or something. I also
| wonder why they didn't bring the bird dog over to San Diego? I
| mean they have the F14 from the USS Enterprise who needed to land
| on the midway still on the flight deck.
|
| Other than that. What an amazing story. I love the part that the
| captain didn't care if he would not only loose his job but also
| get court marshaled for loss of material.
| canthack2good wrote:
| I love Hacker news and I'm finally creating an account. My dad
| flew these planes in Vietnam and I sent him this article. Here's
| some of our conversation:
|
| Me: You know this guy? Or have you heard of him? Dad: I have not.
| This is the 1st I ve heard of it The evacuation of Vietnam was a
| 100 times worse, horrific, etc. Than Afghanistan That pilot was
| very lucky...landing a light fixed wing on an aircraft carrier is
| impossible The swells of the sea, etc. Will bat that plane like a
| bug
|
| Live or die.....hundreds of thousands friendly Vietnamese died
| when we left them unprotected
|
| Me: frowny face
|
| Dad: It was despicable
|
| Much, much worse than Afghanistan.... the North Vietnamese
| slaughtered most all those that worked with US. The rest spent
| long terms in jails
| dredmorbius wrote:
| From an earlier similar story, a comment (to the article, not HN)
| observes:
|
| _I'd like to point out that a lot of our young men are currently
| attempting to do the exact same thing as was described above for
| the Afghani translators who served with the US Army even at
| tremendous risk to their lives. They have sponsored them for
| visas since their lives, and those of their families, are
| increasingly at risk back in Afghanistan because of their work
| with the US. Many of these Afghani and Iraqi translators saved US
| American soldier lives, and made it possible for the our soldiers
| to work with the local populations when this was critical._
|
| _Unfortunately, even as American soldiers are working hard to
| bring their translators they worked with, along with their
| families, to the US, they're running into a lot of red tape back
| in the US, even though we've only filled a fraction of the visas
| that Congress allotted for Iraqis and Afghans who served with the
| US Army and other branches._
|
| <https://tacairnet.com/2015/08/20/a-south-vietnamese-air-forc...>
|
| That was called out in an HN comment:
| <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17992951>
|
| I'd like to point out that following events of the 20th of this
| month, that red tape has turned into a solid wall as the US has
| frozen _all_ asylum and refugee actions, _including those of
| people already cleared to enter the US_ , many with flights
| already booked for entry.
|
| This includes "more than 1,600 Afghans cleared to come to the
| U.S. as part of the program that the Biden administration set up
| after the American withdrawal from Afghanistan in 2021". That
| group specifically includes those who assisted the US during its
| campaigns in Afghanistan:
|
| _Many veterans of America's longest war have tried for years to
| help Afghans they worked with, in addition to their families,
| find refuge in the U.S. Many were prepared for a suspension of
| the resettlement program but had hoped for special consideration
| for the Afghans._
|
| <https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/trump-administration-c...>
|
| The long-lasting harm this does to US goodwill, reputation, and
| the willingness of those abroad to help and assist the US in
| future remains to be seen, but will likely be severe.
| csa wrote:
| I wish I could up vote this more.
|
| > US goodwill, reputation, and the willingness of those abroad
| to help and assist the US in future
|
| I'm afraid that there is a large group of folks in the US who
| put no value on these things, while not really understanding
| how much they have benefitted us (especially in the recent
| past).
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I went on holiday to Vietnam a few years ago. One of our guides
| told that it was still pretty much impossible to get a government
| job if one of your relatives had served in the ARVN - even if
| they had been a conscript. Which seems mad. They also told us a
| few stories about how corrupt their politicians were.
| casenmgreen wrote:
| US Army Center of Military History publications list;
|
| https://history.army.mil/Publications/Publications-Catalog-S...
|
| In particular;
|
| "ADVICE AND SUPPORT: THE EARLY YEARS"
|
| https://history.army.mil/Publications/Publications-Catalog-S...
|
| This is first book in a series of three, where the first and
| third have been published, the second is in fact going to be two
| volumes, of which the second volume is about to be published and
| the first is not yet out.
|
| The book IMO is superb.
|
| The history of it is very simple : the French rules Vietnam,
| extraordinarily badly, the locals wanted independence - that's
| all they wanted. An end to violence, exploitation and corruption.
| WW2 happened, the Japanese moved in, then out, the locals
| declared independence, the French came back, and they wanted to
| keep Vietnam. The French shanghaied the Americans into helping
| them militarily ("they're all communists!!!") and the Americans
| were naive/gullible and bought into it. The French eventually
| left, leaving the Americans carrying the can and with so much
| investment of time and prestige they couldn't just leave.
|
| In all of this, the locals suffered in the most appalling and
| horrific ways, and ended up stuck with Communism (which none of
| them had any particular interest in, and which they later turned
| to because they needed support and that was all that was
| available).
|
| Basically far as I can see it all kicked off with French
| colonialism. The locals simply wanted independence. The irony is
| the USA - the bastion of independence and freedom - ended up
| fighting against this and slaughtering huge numbers of people who
| simply wanted to run their own affairs.
|
| USA is a good country, as countries go, but it has made mistakes,
| and when countries go to war, the practical consequences of the
| mistakes can well be enormous.
|
| (I can compare this to say Putin's Russia, which is an appalling
| country and will kill you and your family if you get in their way
| and using violence and torture to keep people in line.)
| rawgabbit wrote:
| The United States became involved in Vietnam due to a chain of
| events and a strategic mindset shaped by Cold War pressures.
| The fall of China to communism on October 1, 1949, the outbreak
| of the Korean War on June 25, 1950, and the French defeat in
| Indochina culminating in the Geneva Accords on July 21, 1954,
| solidified a "with us or against us" worldview. This
| perspective, driven by fear of communist expansion, led the
| U.S. to see Vietnam as another Korea--a battleground where
| failing to act could result in a perceived loss to communism.
| Believing it had already "lost" China, the U.S. committed to
| Vietnam to prevent what it saw as another domino falling,
| reflecting a reactive and at times simplistic approach to
| global events.
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