[HN Gopher] Trae: An AI-powered IDE by ByteDance
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Trae: An AI-powered IDE by ByteDance
Author : Lermatroid
Score : 215 points
Date : 2025-01-23 01:21 UTC (21 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.trae.ai)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.trae.ai)
| noloblo wrote:
| Is it electron or rust?
| jmccarthy wrote:
| 0:01.39 /Applications/Trae.app/Contents/MacOS/Electron
| rumblefrog wrote:
| It appears to be a VSCode fork, and supports VSC marketplace
| extensions, so I would guess Electron
| noloblo wrote:
| Hard to look at slower editors after sublime speed and hyper
| speed from zed rust
| meowface wrote:
| I've tried Zed and Ghostty and I just don't really get the
| speed thing. Typing latency is extremely unnoticeable in VS
| Code/Cursor and other Electron apps for me.
| noloblo wrote:
| What's Ghostty
| meowface wrote:
| A new terminal emulator popular on HN that advertises its
| minimal typing latency.
| nurumaik wrote:
| For me it's very noticeable. Typing, invoking lsp
| actions, opening terminal panel, switching between files.
| Everything feels much much faster. Switched to zed
| several months ago and never looked back
| Alifatisk wrote:
| You can't compare Zed with Vscode and it's cousins. I've
| used Zed myself and it is still very lacking, limited
| extensions.
|
| Zed only has syntax highlighting and an ai assistant, but
| that's it. Even though Vscode (and the rest) is still also
| considered a text editor and not a IDE, they have by far
| way more features.
|
| Sure, you get super duper high speed, but at what cost?
| noloblo wrote:
| Fair point are there rust or cpp based ides in parity
| with vs code to compare?
| kstrauser wrote:
| Zed has good LSP support for lots of languages. It's not
| only syntax highlighting and AI.
| ElectroNomad wrote:
| How is it different from Cursor?
|
| Just another AI wrapper around VS Code smh
| Alifatisk wrote:
| It's free. Cursor costs after 50 requests, even Windsurf is
| cheaper.
| echelon wrote:
| China is taking every venture-funded AI startup and shitting on
| them. Almost all of them.
|
| Tencent's Hunyuan 3D - Tripo, etc.
|
| Tencent's Hunyuan Video - Sora, Runway, Pika, etc.
|
| ByteDance's Trae - Cursor, etc.
|
| DeepSeek R1 - GPT, etc.
|
| Unitree - Figure, Tesla, Boston Dynamics, etc.
|
| And a ton of this stuff is completely open source. All of the
| Tencent stuff is. This destroys the moat of so many companies
| that have spent hundreds of millions of dollars training and
| building their tech. It's just out there for free for anyone to
| build with.
|
| And has anyone been checking the volume of Chinese AI research
| papers? Almost every impactful paper I've read in the last month
| has mostly Chinese names. And a lot of those papers come with
| code. Usually permissively licensed.
|
| China is absolutely killing at the AI game. They've fast followed
| (or in many cases led) into a position of strength.
|
| I wouldn't want to be RunwayML, Pika, Luma, or Tripo right now.
| Any "foundation model" company with a single use case is getting
| cloned and commoditized.
|
| edit: Please don't downvote me because you don't like the
| message. I'm actually fine with you shooting the messenger, but
| this is absolutely worth talking about. It's pretty surreal to
| watch this all start to unfold over the last quarter or so. I
| want to read what others think about it.
| whatever1 wrote:
| Slightly relevant but they are also in the game of commercial
| mathematical optimization solvers and this year they reached
| parity with the sota American ones (ibm cplex, gurobi, Fico
| Xpress).
|
| It is that bad that all the American companies withrew from the
| public benchmark library. You can only see there Chinese
| commercial solvers and open source ones.
|
| https://plato.asu.edu/bench.html
| adamsiem wrote:
| What are the solvers?
| whatever1 wrote:
| COPT cardinal optimizer, Optverse from Huawei, MindOpt from
| Alibaba
| coalteddy wrote:
| Any blogs or other writing about this topic you can
| recommend? I worked with gurobi in the past but haven't been
| keeping up with the trends and performance gains.
|
| Love this field of CS!
| coliveira wrote:
| Yes, I checked the recent solvers in the MIP space and it
| seems they're blowing out the existing American solvers.
| Huawei has invested a lot of money in this area.
|
| But in my opinion this was completely expected, most research
| in this area is now done in China, American universities have
| in comparison stopped in time.
| xnx wrote:
| ByteDance's UI-TARS - Skyvern, ec.
| add-sub-mul-div wrote:
| Maybe they think it's in their national interest that a
| generation of Americans stops practicing their reading skills
| because of the tl;dr machine and stops building job skills that
| aren't reliant on the job-doing machine.
| DoctorOW wrote:
| I'm okay with the software being made open to the public. I
| think ultimately it's good for society as a whole. The US is
| welcome to do the same (I.E. actually opening OpenAI) but I
| don't think the drawbacks of AI are mitigated by making it
| more profitable to the American establishment.
| lsllc wrote:
| Interesting theory -- maybe trying to diluting/confusing the
| technology market with alternatives that phone home [to the
| LLM] with your content.
|
| I just had to talk someone I know out of using RedNote as the
| TikTok shutdown loomed last week -- they had ZERO IDEA about
| its provenance. Unless you're paying attention, it's actually
| not clear what's what.
| Yeri wrote:
| While I definitely wouldn't trust this tech, we've also
| normalised phoning home with all western tech.
|
| How many products keep sending all kind of unknown telemetry,
| have a ton of trackers, etc?
|
| Can't really blame them doing the same.
| wruza wrote:
| Maybe they just be them, being a second economy and a 4x
| bigger population that is a few iq points smarter on average.
| segmondy wrote:
| Trae doesn't look opensource, from their site looks like you
| download the binary (osx only for now) and install it. You
| can't configure it to use your own AI or another provider. You
| need to use their own API, all your prompts and code are go to
| bytedance.
| pzo wrote:
| Yeah I have similar feeling:
|
| 1) They try similar like Zuck with LLama make sure GPT or
| Claude or Gemini is not the real winner in the West world like
| Android/iOS was for smartphone, Facebook/Whatsapp for social
| media/IM, Google Search for search, Windows for desktop OS.
| Majority people get used to to single product and they don't
| switch often.
|
| 2) Trying to kickstart community similar like LLama kickstarted
| big community around it that helped with tooling, testing, etc.
|
| 3) Slowing down development of ai companies in the west -
| giving them less data for training (after all midjourney,
| elevenlabs, llama kickstarted training on copyrighted content,
| it's pretty sure they using user data at least from e.g. free
| version of GPTo-mini) and bleeding their budget kind of war of
| attrition.
|
| 4) Familiarise the west audience with their ai models - after
| all still not many people using models like DeepkSeek since not
| many providers host them and majority of people don't have fast
| enough computer to run full models fast enough - Trae helps
| with that
| suraci wrote:
| They did what they did because everything they want to buy is
| banned or is to be banned by your government.
|
| Or are you being sarcastic? You must be being sarcastic.
| pzo wrote:
| I'm not being sarcastic. If that would be the only reason
| you said then they wouldn't open source it or didn't market
| for english speaking audience.
| coliveira wrote:
| Well, this is apparent if you follow the releases, but Silicon
| Valley doesn't want you to know that. The strategy of making
| this open source has a clear goal: to make it easier for other
| Chinese startups to use it.
| whoevercares wrote:
| Computer vision and deep learning conferences have been
| overwhelmed with Chinese authors since many years ago. No
| surprises. However the quality of the work skyrocketed recently
| dr_kiszonka wrote:
| If these AI efforts are funded by the Chinese government, it
| makes perfect sense as a strategy. The more successful they
| are, the more risky it becomes to invest in US AI companies,
| leading to fewer investments (and less know-how in the long
| term), and China getting even more ahead.
|
| (I am not in AI, so please correct me if this is inaccurate.)
| whoevercares wrote:
| Good news is the system in China frequently get in the way -
| people with connections wins the government or state owned
| businesses contract, making it tougher for many innovators to
| strive with a shrinking private-owned/consumer-demand
| environment
|
| (Source: frustrated friends who lose the government contract
| to someone with inferior technology)
| fspeech wrote:
| How could more competition be bad? Sure some startups' business
| plans no longer work and have to pivot but many more startups
| now have access to better products at lower cost.
| mring33621 wrote:
| What LLM provider(s) is it talking to?
| handfuloflight wrote:
| According to the Discord, Claude 3.5 Sonnet and OpenAI GPT-4o.
| Also according to the Discord, "SPRING (SG) PTE. LTD. or one of
| its affiliates" is fully subsidizing the costs. This doesn't
| look like a bring your own keys type of deal.
| segmondy wrote:
| If it's truly talking to OpenAI or Claude, then the traffic
| can be intercepted and redirected to your own AI router for
| other cloud AI providers or your local Ollama instance.
| handfuloflight wrote:
| Assuming there's no middleware transformations integral to
| how the IDE works.
| verdverm wrote:
| Trae and Cursor have both certainly embraced the Kelsey Hightower
| take on "no code" platforms
|
| https://github.com/kelseyhightower/nocode
|
| https://github.com/getcursor/cursor
|
| https://github.com/Trae-AI/Trae
| timdorr wrote:
| Even better is nothing at all: https://github.com/timdorr/-
|
| Not even a commit:
| https://github.com/timdorr/-/commit/9e5a571abd3fc4f8714e8c40...
| verdverm wrote:
| Is that not a commit hash in the link?
|
| This is what a commit-less repo looks like on GH:
| https://github.com/verdverm/_
|
| Unfortunately they don't show the description "starting
| repository for any language and project" (a play on the _
| (any) token in CUE)
| DoctorOW wrote:
| I feel like this would've been better as a VSCode extension.
| Copilot, Q, Gemini, all were able to take this approach. Also,
| VSCode isn't considered a full IDE and adding some AI features
| isn't enough to change that. It seems like they forked VS Code
| just for the ability to say they "created an IDE" in the same way
| other projects fork Chromium to "build a browser".
| antoniuschan99 wrote:
| Bytedance is signalling it wants to compete against vscode for
| ide marketshare.
|
| Wondering if it is a fork of vscode though because right now it
| will be competing against cursor.
| verdverm wrote:
| It looks to be a fork, as other comments and the license list
| seem to indicate
| ed wrote:
| Nah the extension API is pretty limited. Copilot uses
| proprietary API's not available to extensions.
|
| If you really want an integrated experience, and not just a
| sidebar UI, you need to go the same route as Cursor and fork
| Code-OSS (the MIT-licensed part of VS Code, analogous to
| Chromium for Chrome)
| ThePyCoder wrote:
| What about Continue? It's an open source, bring your own api
| AI integration for vscode. It does everything that copilot
| does, including the editing-your-code-in-front-of-you diff
| style editor.
|
| I don't think it has any special api access?
| tushgaurav wrote:
| No, I don't think that's possible, VSCode's extension API is
| pretty limited. This is the reason that we have cursor as a
| separate application.
| atulvi wrote:
| Another vscode wrapper
| Alifatisk wrote:
| How many do we have now? 3? Cursor, Windsurf and now Trae.
| jofzar wrote:
| Who would ever allow this in their organisation after the tiktok
| shutdown, just go for one of the other 17 ai IDE forks
| smrtinsert wrote:
| This is the real issue.
| cedws wrote:
| TikTok was shut down because of clueless bureaucrats and
| political games, not because of any specific threat. If there
| was a real risk posed by China why are they idly allowing
| millions of people to migrate to Xiaohongshu, which is even
| more strongly controlled by China?
| Aloisius wrote:
| What bureaucrats?
|
| It was banned because of a law passed by Congress.
| Representatives aren't bureaucrats.
| ioulaum wrote:
| It was always BS though. AOC did an interview where she
| explains (what should be obvious to anyone), that US Gov
| had no proof whatsoever beyond trying to point at that
| Chinese law (much like Section 702 in the US), that makes
| TikTok seem risky.
|
| Except that TikTok isn't legally a Chinese company, and
| isn't really under their jurisdiction.
|
| Chinese companies like to be under the control of the
| Chinese government no more than big American companies like
| to be overly exposed to the US... Thus Apple being based in
| Ireland and keeping most of their profit outside of the US.
| nikkwong wrote:
| Absolutely and verifiably false, again! There are
| numerous data points that prove that the CCP exploits the
| TikTok algorithm to influence western views towards a
| pro-eastern bend. See my comment history for references.
| The close-doored national intelligence briefing that the
| senate got about the way the CCP manipulates the
| algorithm and on how TikTok is a national security threat
| resulted in a 100-0 vote in favor of banning TikTok. When
| do you get 100% of the senate to agree upon anything,
| ever?
|
| TikTok was a threat, and will remain a threat until it's
| divested from or shut down.
| guappa wrote:
| And the USA wants only fb and google to be able to tell
| them what propaganda to push. It's all a propaganda war,
| it's not about propaganda-vs-real news.
| gunian wrote:
| Parable of the Talents seem very appropriate the fourth
| reich has created lil fiefdoms no difference whatsoever
| to each side
| ioulaum wrote:
| The position of governments in society, and thus the
| kinds of solutions they are biased towards, tend to be
| similar.
|
| It's funny seeing things like US Gov trying to control
| free speech, while being restricted by the Constitution.
|
| They do still manage via back-channels.
| ioulaum wrote:
| There's also the Section 702 angle... US can get all US
| social media to spy on non-US citizens without anything
| in the way of legal pushback.
|
| US citizens have rights. Non-US citizens, do not.
|
| I think the problem with TikTok under their audited, non-
| interference under their Project Texas is... That they
| might not easily hand over data, or suppress views that
| US Gov isn't a fan of.
|
| Which will change once TikTok is owned by a US company.
| ioulaum wrote:
| They have all the US data on Oracle servers, with Oracle
| having the responsibility to monitor all access and make
| sure that no Chinese entity can get access.
|
| All algorithms are monitored by Oracle such that only
| user actions can determine what they see.
|
| So, unless you're claiming that "Oracle" is actively
| colluding with China, you're letting your worldview be
| defined by government propaganda.
|
| The Pro-Palestine thing that TikTok refused to suppress
| at US Gov's command, is not "China promoting Eastern
| causes", it's "Americans" taking a position that the
| government wants suppressed.
|
| Thus Biden being forced to cave and at least pretend that
| he cared about Palestinians towards the end of his
| Presidency... Which he stopped caring about once
| Democrats had lost and it no longer mattered what
| Democrat voters think for the time being.
| Aloisius wrote:
| We all know that's b.s. after the leaked audio recordings
| from TikTok meetings describing how US user data is still
| accessed from China.
|
| _> "Everything is seen in China," said a member of
| TikTok's Trust and Safety department in a September 2021
| meeting. In another September meeting, a director
| referred to one Beijing-based engineer as a "Master
| Admin" who "has access to everything."_
|
| The idea that Oracle can prevent Chinese employees from
| accessing data when the servers are running code written
| by ByteDance on bare metal and the US team literally
| reports to the Chinese one is, frankly, ridiculous.
|
| https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilybakerwhite/tikt
| ok-...
| Prbeek wrote:
| You can call them Zionist financed representatives
| yard2010 wrote:
| Hahaha how do you like the weather they're controlling?
| meowface wrote:
| They'll probably (justifiably) try to ban Xiaohongshu, too,
| if it gets anywhere near TikTok's reach in the US market.
| wood_spirit wrote:
| This is being talked about in real life as we post on HN: the
| new administration has a different opinion on this
| https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cn0y51z7wedt
|
| (I am guessing that there will be a deal floated for Elon to
| buy TikTok in a few weeks)
| ioulaum wrote:
| It's doubtful if he can pony up another $50 billion.
|
| Although, if TikTok's earnings can cover the payments on the
| loan, it could be possible.
| nurumaik wrote:
| China itself? Russia that has been blocked from all western
| services? Any non-US/western company?
| herbst wrote:
| Its not shut down, your president made it available again
| without a single change. And it was only a geoblock to begin
| with. By that logic it can't be that bad?
| diggan wrote:
| Who cares what political stunts the US is currently going
| through? Except for the ~4% of the world who happens to live
| there, the rest of us tend to choose tools based on either what
| others around us use, or what we've found to work best for us.
|
| If that happens to be an editor from China instead of US, I
| don't know what difference that would make? Both governments in
| those countries are crazy about spying on both their own
| citizens and everyone else, and have their corporations under
| surveillance.
|
| As long as the editor doesn't send opened files/files from my
| drive to some remote backend, I couldn't care less about the
| nationality of the developers.
| echoangle wrote:
| > As long as the editor doesn't send opened files/files from
| my drive to some remote backend, I couldn't care less about
| the nationality of the developers.
|
| Is this sarcasm? Isn't that exactly what the editor has to do
| to do its job? How else would the AI stuff work? It's not
| running on-device, right?
| knowitnone wrote:
| then you should install everything that comes out of China,
| Russia, North Korea, Iran
| diggan wrote:
| I mean, I have some stuff from China, some of the stuff
| from there is good, cheap and high quality, so why wouldn't
| I? I don't know of many consumer products from Russia,
| North Korea or Iran. I'm sure if there was something from
| those countries that I really wanted, I'd buy it.
|
| Edit: Actually I do have a product that is kind of Russian,
| Flipper Zero. I'm don't remember if I bought it before they
| moved the company to the US though, or while it was based
| in Russia.
| swozey wrote:
| I can't imagine getting an engineering job at an engineering
| company and asking them if I'd be allowed to create an opensource
| IDE that would never be a sold product. I can barely even get
| allowed time to write SRE tooling to improve our own engineers
| lives.
|
| Some C-levels newphew into computers and need a school project or
| something?
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Bytedance created all internal tools by themselves. Personally
| I'd definitely love to join such a company if I'm in that
| tooling team. Whether they are being used by outsiders is
| irrelevant because I already bagged the skills.
| swozey wrote:
| Eh, I make tooling for a living. It sucks to have nobody
| using your tools even if they were fun to make. You spend
| months/years putting something out there that you think will
| really benefit a company/team/foss and it goes nowhere. It's
| like painting a painting you love and it getting thrown in an
| attic.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I get what you said, but I'm not in a tooling team so I
| have a different perspective :)
| toprerules wrote:
| I feel like I'm taking crazy pills, because every time I try to
| use AI for any of my projects - including the "better" Anthropic
| and OpenAI models, I get terribly written, buggy code that has
| nothing to do with the domain or question. Unless I'm feeding it
| actual softball, single function questions it adds almost no
| value to my dev cycle. Mind you, all of this terrible code also
| costs a ton in tokens.
|
| It's sad because I have seen some truly remarkable progress in
| LLMs, but I feel like we aren't allowed to be honest anymore that
| LLMs aren't going to replace programmers or moderate our
| expectations.
| jkingsman wrote:
| I think it's part art of prompting, and part problem scope --
| they're not gonna get you a super polished final product
| without a LOT of support (yet), but they excel at rapid
| I-don't-care-what-the-code-looks-like-just-get-me-an-
| interactive-prototype work, and at solving specific problems
| (e.g. the function should do THIS, write it and write me a test
| suite). However, there are some agentic IDEs like Windsurf that
| are working to have LLMs orchestrate their own work. Well
| supported with a rock solid test suite, I've seen some people
| do pretty incredible things with them. The more a codebase
| provides tools for LLMs to live of the land in terms of tests
| and comments, the more aggressive you can be with what you ask
| them to do.
|
| I've built a couple pretty simple apps that have been basically
| no code beyond tweaks for me.
|
| I do think a big knowledge gap is the acceleration of prompting
| by knowing how to talk about code. LLMs show a lot of
| difference in response between "make the top bit stay on the
| screen on small screens" and "make the <th> element sticky for
| viewports <600px".
| virgildotcodes wrote:
| It's a tool with limited functionality. I think over time you
| vaguely learn the shape of its limits and work with what it can
| do, and it becomes genuinely useful.
|
| Doing basic stuff with a very limited scope that's likely well
| documented all over the internet, great.
|
| Boilerplate, tedious yet simple things, works awesome as
| enhanced autocomplete.
|
| More complex stuff, give it a shot, maybe you'll get lucky,
| otherwise if it starts fucking up I've had the most success
| just taking a step back and doing it myself, maybe chatting
| with it as a live docs substitute, or a realtime stack
| overflow/discord programming channel which are also sometimes
| of dubious quality but frequently useful.
|
| The misery really lies in getting stuck in that cycle of it
| just messing up over and over as you try to get it to make this
| thing work that is clearly beyond its scope and it's just
| turning everything into a greater and greater mess of
| hallucinated bullshit.
| petesergeant wrote:
| > It's a tool with limited functionality. I think over time
| you vaguely learn the shape of its limits and work with what
| it can do, and it becomes genuinely useful.
|
| Yeah, I think this is exactly right. I use it for adding new
| files to an existing codebase, but without giving it access
| to that codebase, by passing in the definitions I want it to
| work with. It gets stuff wrong a lot, and I need to keep
| anything I'm asking for _well_ within a scope that I can be
| eagle-eyed about. But if I want to do something pretty simple
| that would be slightly annoying to write by hand, and can be
| done in a single file, it makes a pleasant alternative to
| typing out the code by hand.
|
| I don't think I would be able to do this as a junior
| developer, I think this is only working because I can tell
| when it's full of shit, and I lasted about 90m of being
| willing to let IDE-integration happen, because it's too easy
| to be lazy and not scrutinize every little change, and that
| way lies total madness. This makes me beyond skeptical of
| non-developers writing anything significant with it: they'd
| be much, much better off learning Bubble or similar.
| nosefurhairdo wrote:
| It takes some practice to get good using them. I use it as a
| sophisticated autocomplete. For example, if I'm building an api
| client layer in a web frontend, I might have `fooApi.ts`,
| `mockFooApi.ts`, and `barApi.ts`. instead of writing
| `mockBarApi.ts`, something that might take 5 - 15 minutes, I
| can feed those 3 existing files into context, and a few seconds
| and pennies later I have a nearly perfect file ready for
| review.
|
| For any semi novel development I want to write it myself to
| establish the patterns I like and get an understanding of what
| I'm building. It's the boring stuff I hand over to Claude.
| toprerules wrote:
| That's just it, I try not to write the boring parts at all.
| That's what libraries and design pattern are for - avoiding
| writing boilerplate.
|
| I certainly can see it being useful for writing additional
| tests, although I am very worried based on what I've seen
| that it will introduce more bugs than it's worth, which is
| why it's still a tool I use for hobby projects and not for
| real work.
| guappa wrote:
| > I certainly can see it being useful for writing
| additional tests
|
| If your metric is number of tests, sure. If your metric is
| number of useful tests... eh
| anon-3988 wrote:
| You don't use LLMs to write code for you. This is like asking
| it what is 2+2, it may be able to answer that but that's not
| how it works.
|
| What it is just a summary of the internet.
| CreepGin wrote:
| I'm pretty new in this, but a couple months back, I tried some
| direct AI code execution in Unity. It worked surprisingly well.
| Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xCR4fiyugA
|
| So I definitely think the value proposition of AI coding is
| higher when you have programmatical control over the workflow.
|
| On a related note, the recent Cline Plan+Act function has also
| been a game changer.
| userbinator wrote:
| You're already above average if you can see that AI-generated
| code is bad. Those who are below average will think it's
| amazing and improving their abilities.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| Can you provide a specific example of where an LLM failed? If
| you show us your prompt, your "want/need", and the result, we
| can better judge your situation. My guess: Your domain is
| weird/rare, so LLMs are terrible because their training data is
| very limited.
| thesz wrote:
| > Your domain is weird/rare, so LLMs are terrible because
| their training data is very limited.
|
| And this is how knowledge collapse [1] shows its' head.
|
| [1] https://arxiv.org/abs/2404.03502
|
| I am not a big fan of LLMs so I try them once in a while,
| asking to "implement blocked clause decomposition in
| Haskell." They can recite a paper (and several other papers,
| with references) almost verbatim, but they do not posess
| enough comprehension of what is going on in these papers. As
| time passes by, with each new LLM, the level of comprehension
| drops. Last time LLM tried to persuade me to write code
| instead of providing me with code.
| jcheng wrote:
| I gave Claude 3.5 Sonnet your prompt and it generated this:
| https://claude.site/artifacts/7aa41881-937e-4863-a407-c999e
| a...
|
| With this example usage: -- Example
| usage: let clause1 = Set.fromList [1, 2] --
| represents (x1 [?] x2) let clause2 = Set.fromList
| [-1, 3] -- represents (!x1 [?] x3) let formula =
| Set.fromList [clause1, clause2] --
| Decompose the formula let (nonBlocked, blocked) =
| decompose formula
|
| How did it do?
| thesz wrote:
| This is very good.
|
| Did it do just from the prompt or you had to nudge it?
| Can you share full chat history?
| guappa wrote:
| > My guess: Your domain is weird/rare, so LLMs are terrible
| because their training data is very limited.
|
| The training data is always limited, because if there was an
| existing software that already did what I'm doing, I'd be
| using it instead of writing it :)
|
| So by definition, unless I'm learning how to program and
| doing exercises that thousands have done before me, I'm doing
| something for which there is no training data.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Copilot Edits works incredibly well. It writes 80% of my code
| with the majority of my work being small fixes.
|
| https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/copilot/copilot-edits
| toprerules wrote:
| What kind of code/projects do you work on?
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| Python, TypeScript, Java, Go.
|
| I've done some stuff for a compiler in Java, backend web
| services in Python/Go/TS, frontend w/ React/TS.
|
| I was a huge skeptic of this stuff at first but started
| using it about a year ago. I could definitely live without
| it, but it also saves me a significant amount of time.
|
| I've been working on a feature in Python. With Copilot
| edits I just needed to find files the implemented the
| pattern, add it to the chat context. and write something
| like "implement feature x following the same pattern". It
| never gets it right the first time, but you can just keep
| the conversation going and have it iterate.
|
| Afterwards I can just write /tests and Copilot generates
| reasonable tests. If it missed cases I can ask it to write
| cover those tests. Often times I can also just write
| literally "cover edge cases" and it handles all reasonable
| scenarios.
| landswipe wrote:
| It's called over-hyped.
| raincole wrote:
| > but I feel like we aren't allowed to be honest anymore that
| LLMs aren't going to replace programmers or moderate our
| expectations.
|
| But literally every single programmer I know has this opinion.
| gt0 wrote:
| Agree, who is not allowing us to be honest? I have found
| programmers are freely talking about the limitations of AI.
| ithkuil wrote:
| It looks like if the stuff you read online, written by
| people who need to optimize for various metrics of which
| objectivity is not among the top ones, shapes the
| perception of reality
| __loam wrote:
| This opinion used to be a lot less popular especially on
| hackernews
| lencastre wrote:
| It's a matter of incentives and who benefits from a
| generalized belief that AI will wipe the floor with the
| whole programmer class.
| guappa wrote:
| I know developers that love it.
|
| Of course they are terrible at their job, so AI doesn't make
| their code much worse.
| sergiotapia wrote:
| just like googling was a skill back in the day, coding with AI
| is a skill. you should figure out how to see someone use it
| properly to learn.
| ijidak wrote:
| > I feel like we aren't allowed to be honest anymore that LLMs
| aren't going to replace programmers or moderate our
| expectations.
|
| I haven't heard anyone in tech say programmers will be replaced
| by this tech.
|
| I have heard persons outside of tech say it, but I think they
| lack sufficient context.
|
| I mean, if we get AGI, yes, we might be fully out of a job.
| But, so far I think many programmers agree this seems to be a
| ways off.
|
| But, I think you underestimate how many programmers used to
| copy paste code from StackOverflow and articles, etc.
|
| We even had/have a phrase for that: "copy pasta".
|
| Those programmers are getting more applicable templated code
| than they used to get via copy paste.
|
| When I'm coding in my preferred languages, I am faster without
| AI.
|
| But, when I'm writing yaml or something else for an unfamiliar
| tool or platform, I do get a productivity boost, even if I have
| to debug the code / configuration.
| wordofx wrote:
| lol I always find these sort of posts amusing. It really shows
| those who can use ai effectively vs those who don't understand
| it at all.
| kristopolous wrote:
| I've got a colleague at work and when he's wrong, I've got to
| get Claude to agree with me before he believes me.
|
| I used to think he was competent but now I think he's a moron
| guappa wrote:
| If you formulate the questions right, AI will agree to
| anything.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I see this here often, but really, can someone please make a
| video or blog post with a complete code session so we can see
| what exactly happens? I am curious.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| As with all other tools you should expect there to be some
| learning curve. When desktop top publishing became a thing,
| professionals had to adjust their ways of working but if you
| stuck with glue and knives you were out of a job.
|
| LLMs are a tool. It's also weird and counterintuitive so it
| takes some time to get really good with them.
| cma wrote:
| If it did everything in one shot always you wouldn't need an
| IDE for it.
| thekevan wrote:
| I feel like it's so hot or cold. People have been raving about
| Loveable "one-shotting" the creation of an app given one
| prompt. I tried to have it recreate a basic landing page from a
| screenshot and it wasn't even close. It invented some sections,
| reproduced others terribly and completely ignored others. I
| went through numerous prompts until I ran out for the day.
|
| With what I was left with at that point, it probably would have
| been a wash to fix that code or just start from scratch
| manually.
|
| I don't blame Loveable, I think it's a wonderful product
| bordering on magic, like v0 and Bolt.new. I just think they are
| amazing products that have been over hyped to god-like status.
| bni wrote:
| Heresy!
|
| Also don't believe your lying eyes.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Same here. I find it useful for:
|
| - autocompletion (about half the time)
|
| - questions on the syntax for certain commands (faster than
| looking up in the docs, usually pretty accurate)
|
| - questions for how to solve a particular problem or gotcha
| (faster than looking up on SO, but also less accurate)
|
| It's a useful tool for certain cases, for sure. But it's not a
| "game changer" in terms of productivity.
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| Awesome work.
|
| Sidenote: That marketing video was nauseating, it was moving too
| fast and didn't show any features for long enough or for enough
| steps.
| softirq wrote:
| Side note, but I hate that we're moving to a world where coding
| costs a subscription. I fell in love with coding because I could
| take my dad's old Thinkpad, install Linux for free - fire up
| Emacs and start hacking without an internet connection.
|
| We're truly building walls everywhere.
| dartos wrote:
| Don't worry.
|
| There's literally nothing an llm can write or tell you that you
| can't write yourself or find in a manual somewhere.
| ryang2718 wrote:
| Although, tbf, some libraries are documented better than
| others.
|
| Also, local llms with an agentic tool can be a lot of fun to
| quickly prototype things. Quality can be hit or miss.
|
| Hopefully the work trickles down to local models long-term.
| guappa wrote:
| And you think an llm can generate code to use an
| undocumented library? :D
| andsoitis wrote:
| If there are open source projects that use said library,
| then probably yes.
| guappa wrote:
| Unless they are not hosted on github, then no :D
| 3D30497420 wrote:
| Even documented libraries can be a struggle, especially
| if they are not particularly popular. I'm doing a project
| with WiFi/LoRa/MQTT on an ESP32. The WiFi code was fairly
| decent, but the MQTT and especially LoRa library code was
| nearly useless.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| Of course, why wouldn't it? It's a generative model, not
| a lookup table. Show it the library headers, and it'll
| give you decent results.
|
| _Obviously_ , if the library or code using it weren't
| part of the training data, and you don't supply either in
| the context of your request, then it won't generate valid
| code for it. But that's not LLM's fault.
| dartos wrote:
| > not a lookup table
|
| You can imagine the classic attention mechanism as a
| lookup table, actually.
|
| Transformers are layers and layers and layers of lookup
| tables.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| > _There's literally nothing an llm can write or tell you
| that you can't write yourself or find in a manual somewhere._
|
| That's like saying, there's literally nothing a service
| business can do for you that you can't do yourself. It's only
| true in a theoretical sense, if neither time nor resources
| are a constraint.
|
| In such hypothetical universe, you don't need a dentist - you
| only need to spend 5+ years in medical school + whatever
| extra it takes to become proficient with tools dentists use +
| whatever money it takes to buy that equipment. You also don't
| need accountants, lawyers, hairdressers, or construction
| companies. You can always learn this stuff and do it yourself
| better!
|
| Truth is, time and attention is finite. Meanwhile, SOTA LLMs
| are cheap as dirt, they can do pretty much anything that
| involves text, and do it at the level of a mediocre
| specialist - i.e. _they 're literally better than you at
| anything except the few things you happen to be experienced
| in_. Not perfect, by no means error-free - just _better than
| you_. I feel this still hasn 't sunk in for most people.
| tarkonaut wrote:
| > they're literally better than you at anything except the
| few things you happen to be experienced in
|
| Like speaking english and coding?
| falcor84 wrote:
| I don't know how you compare, but ChatGPT's English
| grammar and vocabulary are significantly better than
| mine. And when I prompt it appropriately, it also seems
| to be a better creative writer than I am, at least for
| short pieces.
| dartos wrote:
| > it also seems to be a better creative writer than I am,
| at least for short pieces
|
| Don't be so hard on yourself.
|
| Chatgpt (and other LLMs) are awful at creative prose.
| ben_w wrote:
| > Chatgpt (and other LLMs) are awful at creative prose.
|
| As are most humans.
|
| Don't get me wrong, what I've seen from even the better
| LLMs have a certain voice and tropes and sacherine
| worldview that isn't dark enough where it needs to be for
| the story to work; but on the other hand, what I see on
| some fiction writing subreddits... the AI is often a
| genuine improvement over amateur writers, even in cases
| where the AI contradicts itself about plot elements.
|
| Which is frustrating, because I have the feeling the
| novel I've been trying to finish writing for the last
| decade may be usurped by AI before I get my final draft.
| codr7 wrote:
| Except it has no freaking idea what it's doing, that's
| the difference.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| It's giving a reply that "sounds right to a human" in
| context. Which, on small scale, is exactly what they, me
| and you are also doing when writing (or speaking), except
| for the infrequent cases when we force ourselves to
| reason through stuff very. slowly.
|
| (This is why I believe LLM performance is best judged
| against human inner voice/system 1 reasoning, not the
| entirety of human thinking. When thinking with system 1,
| people don't really have an idea what they're doing
| either - they're just doing stuff that _feels right_.)
|
| Also note that "sounds right to a human" is literally
| _the_ loss function on which LLMs are trained, so between
| heaps of training inputs and subsequent extensive RLHF,
| the process is by its very construction aiming optimizing
| for above-human-average performance across the board.
| dartos wrote:
| > That's like saying, there's literally nothing a service
| business can do for you that you can't do yourself.
|
| No, it's not. You're making my statement abstract for the
| sake of arguing.
|
| I'm not a cook, doctor, or a lawyer. I can't prepare meals
| for a party of more than 2.
|
| I can't perform surgery.
|
| I can't effectively defend myself in a court of law.
|
| I (and I assume OP) have programming expertise.
|
| I can write exactly all code an llm could write.
|
| For simple scripts, demos and other easily Googleable
| tasks, LLMs will be faster, but it's nothing out of reach
| for me.
|
| These tools won't force you to pay a subscription to code.
| You don't need them if you already have experience.
| ben_w wrote:
| > No, it's not. You're making my statement abstract for
| the sake of arguing.
|
| > I'm not a cook, doctor, or a lawyer. I can't prepare
| meals for a party of more than 2.
|
| They are demonstrating how over-broad your own statement
| was with an * _equivalent*_ statement to show how it only
| passes on an unhelpful technicality.
|
| Immediately after your quotation is this:
|
| > you only need to spend 5+ years in medical school +
| whatever extra it takes to become proficient
|
| LLMs pass the bar exam and the medical exam. These are
| things which I assume I would be able to do myself if
| only I were willing to dedicate 5 years of my life to
| each.
|
| > I can write exactly all code an llm could write.
|
| I can often see many errors in the code that ChatGPT
| produces. Within my domain, it's just a speed-up, a first
| draft I have to fix. Outside my domain, it knows what I *
| _can 't*_ Google because I've never heard the keyword
| that would allow me to.
|
| On legal questions, ChatGPT (despite passing the bar
| exam) seems to make up cases. I belive this because I can
| google the cases and fail to find them. Is this because
| they don't exist, or because they're not indexed on
| Google? _I don 't have the legal background necessary to
| know_ -- and it would take me years to get the knowledge
| necessary to differentiate "it's worse than first glance"
| from "it's better than second glance".
| renewedrebecca wrote:
| No. Just what, _two_ years ago, no one was really using
| LLMs to do this sort of thing? Why do we suddenly _have_ to
| use these tools now?
|
| If your job is to write software, then you're the
| accountant or lawyer or doctor. Otherwise, what do we even
| bring to the table?
| JKolios wrote:
| Even if you absolutely have to use an LLM for some reason,
| there are already perfectly good LLMs for code generation
| that you can comfortably run on commodity hardware.
| dartos wrote:
| Yeah the deepseek models are actually pretty solid.
|
| I use that with avante.vim for tedious refactors. All
| local.
| thomasfromcdnjs wrote:
| I've been coding for around 25 years, I have 3 or so
| subscriptions to different AI products that I use for coding.
|
| It is kind of terrifying that I probably would stop coding for
| the day if those subscriptions end. (I get far too much
| convenience out of them)
|
| I have tried to rationalize it by the fact that I do pay for
| internet, and version control, and my peripherals etc
| muixoozie wrote:
| You should check out openrouter if you haven't already.
| ioulaum wrote:
| It's been a little janky for me - usually get better
| results from directly using a provider's API.
| wilg wrote:
| This is a free tool (though I wouldn't use it since its from
| Bytedance). Also you could have an AI powered IDE locally
| without a subscription.
| d1sxeyes wrote:
| For now. It's not clear what the monetisation strategy is,
| but probably it will be paid in future (alongside whatever
| other strategies they may have, like selling data, etc)
| segmondy wrote:
| No one is forcing you to subscribe. You can code the old
| fashion way, if you wish to use AI, you can run your own local
| model.
| wrsh07 wrote:
| You can run it all locally: https://github.com/ggml-
| org/llama.vscode
| eikenberry wrote:
| You are not alone. The only future for these sorts of AI coding
| helpers is for them to use 100% free software AIs. On the
| bright side good progress is being made in that area and the
| main sticking point seems to be the expensive hardware to run
| them on (and integration). Costs on that hardware will
| hopefully drop over time so they won't still be mostly limited
| to 1st world (like the subscriptions).
| codr7 wrote:
| It will fail epically as always with these morons, let's hope
| some of us still feel like helping out once the coin drops.
| wruza wrote:
| Just get a graphics card and run a prompt-compatible llm
| yourself. Recent models like phi-4 show decent results
| (relative to your general amazement baseline) even on medium
| quantization. I'm running q4_k_m (8gb) with custom "just print
| and stfu" characters and rarely reach Claude anymore.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >but I hate that we're moving to a world where coding costs a
| subscription
|
| I mean you don't need to if you don't want to. I am gainfully
| employed as a software developer and what I do everyday is
| literally just fire up Emacs on my Linux machine and write
| code. To this day I haven't figured out what llms are supposed
| to do that a bunch of yasnippets don't.
|
| Just like five years ago most of my day is reading and
| debugging code, I'm not limited by how fast I can type.
| handfuloflight wrote:
| You're definitely limited by how fast you can read and
| understand.
| svantana wrote:
| True, but the jury is still out whether text generators
| help out with either of those.
| handfuloflight wrote:
| The jury which only has you as a member, obviously.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Understand probably not, but they can read bizarrely fast
| and write a summary of what things do very fast ; maybe
| not 100% accurately but close enough to be of value when
| trying to understand a large bag of code fast.
| Gormo wrote:
| Is there some alternative, though? Using an LLM might speed
| up writing code, but obviously can't speed up reading and
| interpreting it.
| ioulaum wrote:
| $20/mo isn't a lot... Especially if you make money with coding.
| guappa wrote:
| If you pay out of pocket it means it's not an approved tool
| by your company, which means you can be fired and sued for
| leaking their intellectual property.
|
| Also 20$ per month is way less than what it costs them to run
| it. Eventually they will need to charge way more to cover
| their costs, and the people who can't code without an AI
| assistant will need to pony up :)
| ioulaum wrote:
| The coding IDEs at $20/mo do not result in your IP being
| shared with the AI provider for training.
|
| That only applies to regular ChatGPT use.
|
| And developers actively using AI for coding can easily
| spend more than $20/mo for the API.
|
| There are people spending $10-15/day in OpenAI API usage
| working through Cline.
| kstrauser wrote:
| > The coding IDEs at $20/mo do not result in your IP
| being shared with the AI provider for training.
|
| If you're not running the model locally, you're sending
| your code to them for analysis. Now ByteDance has it.
| elicksaur wrote:
| It likely doesn't matter if it is for training in this
| case. I can't send our codebase to a friend even if they
| would never look at it or use it.
|
| The issue would be based on the terms of employment and
| the software license. There's likely a provision that
| just says "don't share" regardless of what the other
| party will use it for.
|
| To OP's point, if your company is paying for the sub,
| then sending the codebase data would be an approved use
| of the codebase as part of your job.
| przmk wrote:
| It is a lot outside of the US. Even with an ok developer
| salary in Belgium, I'd have to really have a use for
| something to pay $20/mo.
| ioulaum wrote:
| If it improves your performance by 1%, then for a salary of
| $2000/mo, that $20/mo is breakeven.
|
| If it benefits you more than 1%, then you're in profit.
|
| Of course, if you're in a job that doesn't actually care
| about performance, and performing won't lead to better
| salary at some point, then it may not matter.
| elicksaur wrote:
| Only if it increases your compensation by that 1%?
|
| I get making economic/stats based analysis like this, but
| is your boss going to notice that 1% to give you a raise
| they otherwise wouldn't? Probably not...
|
| Your company culture can be performance-minded and this
| still be true.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| What a weird way of thinking. If you act so pedantic
| anyway, you can stop coding simply 1 percent earlier each
| day, since your boss would not notice anyway. Personally
| I live in Belgium and I would be glad to pay 20 euros per
| month if it increases my productivity, as noticed by my
| boss or not.
|
| The real problem however is, I cannot simply share my
| employer's repos to be absorbed by any LLM out there. So
| I use only the tools that my employer provides and
| approves of. Currently that is Microsoft Copilot chat/RAG
| via my work account. It takes some copy/paste and
| adaptations of problems/solutions but it is much more
| efficient than using SO. It is also a great teacher that
| never gets tired of my plenty why/how questions.
|
| In my view, the future is that LLMs can train on entire
| private code repos until it understands its ins and outs.
| Currently it would need to fit in the context window,
| hence you need to babyspoon it, as I understand things.
| elicksaur wrote:
| I was only embodying the mindset in the comment I was
| replying to. Thinking in terms like "My time is worth $X,
| so if I do Y thing that takes Z minutes, that's D dollars
| saved." It gets really hairy and leads people down false
| paths where they think they're being super "rational" all
| the time.
|
| In this case it tricks you because it assumes that the
| LLMs increase productivity and launders that into the
| calculation. For me, and many people, LLM usage decreases
| my productivity.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I do a lot more work with cline and aider than without. For
| now that translates to a lot more money. In the end it's
| probably just going to be part of your normal job; you will
| just deliver a lot more in your 40 hour week than you did
| before. At this stage in the AI hype, I would insist on
| more or code side projects or do multiple projects. I write
| a lot more code and still have more time than before sonnet
| came out.
| nicman23 wrote:
| And you still can. What are you on about.
| sdesol wrote:
| > world where coding costs a subscription
|
| I think you are approaching this with the wrong mindset. I see
| it as I'm paying somebody to type and document for me. If you
| treat LLMs like a power tool, it is very easy to do a cost
| benefit analysis.
| _Algernon_ wrote:
| It doesn't though. You can still code the old fashioned way,
| and you are even likely to become a better programmer for it.
|
| Personally, I tried copilot when I got it for free as a student
| and it didnt make a difference. The reason I know is that I was
| coding on two devices, one which had copilot installed the
| other didnt, and I didnt care enough to install it on the
| latter through an entire semester.
|
| Its just slightly better autocomplete, by a questionable
| standard of "better".
| redviperpt wrote:
| I agree with your overall point, but Cursor's autocomplete is
| significantly betters than copilots.
| mostlysimilar wrote:
| Then don't use autocomplete.
| pjmlp wrote:
| That is what happens when developers want to be paid for their
| work, but refuse to pay for the tools they use, regardless of
| little they may cost.
|
| So we're going back to the last century, but given we are in a
| different computing context, only the stuff that can be gated
| via digital stores, or Web Services, gets to have a way to
| force people to pay.
| guappa wrote:
| You can still do like that.
|
| The problem is that coding was a passion, but turned out to be
| very lucrative profession so loads of people who can't do it
| want to do it.
|
| This is why we have languages like Go, and AI tools: allow
| people who don't want to learn how to be developers, to get a
| job as developers.
| Yasuraka wrote:
| And here I thought those are all using Python, JS and Ruby.
| guappa wrote:
| I don't think anyone's using ruby.
| maxehmookau wrote:
| I think that world exists already. I've been paying for
| JetBrains licences for years because their value is greater
| than their cost.
|
| You can do it without IDEs, nothing is stopping you. I don't
| think this is a new phenomenon though.
| cynicalsecurity wrote:
| It's much worse, I doubt they created and published this IDE
| for profit, they want people's data.
| einrealist wrote:
| And a world, where you cannot be sure who has access to your
| source code (or even to your systems).
| barrenko wrote:
| It will be free soon enough.
| zild3d wrote:
| > I fell in love with coding because I could take my dad's old
| Thinkpad, install Linux for free - fire up Emacs and start
| hacking without an internet connection.
|
| I'm not understanding what it is about a private company
| launching a product that changes that?
| handfuloflight wrote:
| It changes that others aren't going to be learning coding in
| the same, purist way.
| tonyhart7 wrote:
| >>"coding costs a subscription."
|
| You are free to coding without spend a dime, these AI dev tool
| cost money because these LLM cost money to run
|
| You can get the same experience with open source tools that you
| can run your own model on your pc
| lazycog512 wrote:
| This is an age where you can write your own LLM extension.
|
| There's no moat, all the clever prompting tricks Cursor et al.
| are just that - there is no secret sauce besides the model at
| the other end.
|
| Complexity isn't an issue either, have the model write the
| interface to itself.
| ltadeut wrote:
| That's not going away at all though.
|
| But I am glad we now have more paid options available. Tooling
| is important and people that do good work should be able to
| charge for high quality tools.
|
| I would be much happier in a world full of tools licensed like
| Sublime Text, where I can purchase a license and just run it
| without the need to constantly phone home though.
| twasold wrote:
| Vs code is free. And copilot has a free tier.
| knowitnone wrote:
| "install Linux for free - fire up Emacs and start hacking
| without an internet connection." that still works you know.
| Nobody is forcing you down this subscription path (except
| Microsoft)
| olddog2 wrote:
| Use an aggregator like nano-gpt.com. You get access to all the
| top models (including o1 pro which usually requires a
| $200/month subscription) on a pay per use rate. Short on cash ?
| Use deepseek models for .1cents.
| impulser_ wrote:
| Bro the West is getting cooked by China right now. We might be
| fucked.
|
| Everything that has been coming out of China is better than
| anything our mega trillion dollar corporation are producing and
| they are doing with with sanctions on the best GPUs.
|
| I don't work in big tech, why are they so bad with sigifically
| more money and more advanced technology?
|
| Google had a decade and a half head start and they can't even
| produce a model that is as good and as cheap as Deepseek building
| with no compute compared to Google.
|
| I have been using Trae and VS Code with Copilot is laughable
| compare too it despite using the same models. So we can't even
| prompt LLMs as good as they do and they don't even speak English
| as a first language LMFAO.
|
| We might be fucked and this is just the beginning.
|
| Maybe time to learn code should be time to learn Chinese.
| opwieurposiu wrote:
| My kids are in elementary school that Chinese language in the
| morning and English in the afternoon.
|
| Only problem is now I have no idea what they are talking about
| half the time.
| wood_spirit wrote:
| Which Chinese language do they learn?
| opwieurposiu wrote:
| Mandarin with the Simplified Characters (4 Tone Mainland
| Style)
| tnt128 wrote:
| Haven't tried Trae. Is it objectively better than cursor? I
| felt this statement might be premature. US is still leading in
| software and AI space.
| impulser_ wrote:
| The chat UX is definitely better than Cursor. It less janky
| and I like that it wait until generation is done before
| asking you if you want to apply the suggested the changes
| instead of loading them into your file right after like
| cursor does. Also you can apply at cursor which is nice for
| snippets.
|
| The Builder tool is probably the best feature of Trae. It
| builds React UIs better than any tool even v0 which is built
| for building React UIs. It very good at recreating UI from
| image even better than using the model directly which I'm not
| too sure how...
|
| Code completion is probably closer to copilot than cursor so
| it depends on how hardcore you like your AI code completion.
| So Cursor might be better especially for repetitive
| refactoring.
|
| The overall design and feel of Trae is better the VS Code and
| Cursor, but I'm a big fan of JetBrains and it feel a lot like
| a JetBrains IDE.
| tnt128 wrote:
| Ah. Thx for the break down.
| handfuloflight wrote:
| Would you choose this over JetBrains?
| impulser_ wrote:
| No, because I like debuggers but if you don't care about
| debuggers than I would.
|
| It's basically a better Fleet. In fact, it's if Fleet and
| VS Code had a baby lol.
| verdverm wrote:
| Does Jetbrains have a language agnostic IDE? Their page
| makes it look like you need to pick one specific to a
| language, but I have repos with multiple languages
|
| Like why does this page even exist?
| https://www.jetbrains.com/ides/#choose-your-ide
| impulser_ wrote:
| It's Fleet.
|
| https://www.jetbrains.com/fleet/
| verdverm wrote:
| much appreciated
| scottyeager wrote:
| DeepSeek is absolutely the leader in terms of cost value for
| high performance AI models.
|
| US firms might have the lead in terms of absolute best
| performance, true. But their prices are 10-20x more for a
| product that is marginally better at most. When it comes to
| coding DeepSeek V3 is very close to Claude 3.5 Sonnet and
| exceeds GPT-4o.
| cedws wrote:
| This won't be a popular opinion here on HN but I think it's the
| beginning of the end for Western hegemony. Asia is powering
| full steam ahead while we sit idle. We have much lower social
| cohesion and it's getting worse all the time. We're becoming
| lower trust societies. We don't incentivise building enough.
| Success is considered having enough capital to sit back and
| generate more capital while contributing nothing back to
| society.
|
| At the forefront of our politicians' minds are how many genders
| there are. In the UK just building a new high speed railway has
| practically been the Manhattan project. Will we get back on
| track? I think the chances of that are rapidly diminishing.
| wordofx wrote:
| Well the west is too busy trying to answer the question "what
| is a woman" and allowing mass migration into their countries.
| While Asia is like "there's men and woman, and we make it
| hard for you to live in our country and never get citizenship
| while we out build you in every aspect"
| repeekad wrote:
| what's funny is debating about "what is a woman" vs having
| to work 6 days a week 6 to 9pm, I know which country I'd
| rather live in
| shigawire wrote:
| >At the forefront of our politicians' minds are how many
| genders there are.
|
| This seems so irrelevant. Why do you think reactionary
| politics will lead to more innovation?
| guappa wrote:
| I don't think you understood his comment.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| Reminds me of JetBrains AI, I think I'll stick to JetBrains
| solution for the time being. I'm not super crazy on AI coding
| solutions, but the JetBrains flavor hits a sweet spot for me,
| built-in and does what I usually need it to do.
| krashidov wrote:
| Has it gotten better? I tried it out early and it was unusable
| surfingdino wrote:
| Still unusable. I had to disable it.
| dygd wrote:
| Compared to plugin like Sourcegraph Cody with Claude 3.5
| Sonnet, Jetbrain's is still atrocious.
| joshstrange wrote:
| Same here, I need to try it again but Copilot+Aider cover my
| needs right now. I would like LLM completion in my commit
| messages which Copilot doesn't have but JetBrains AI does
| IIRC. I really want JetBrains AI to get better, I think they
| are supposed to be adding Claude support this month? Or
| already did?
| spondyl wrote:
| I know it's a marketing site so the speed is for the sake of the
| demo but the various animations showing a cursor scrolling past
| reams of text quicker than any human can scan, and just blindly
| hitting Accept makes for weird optics.
| userbinator wrote:
| The message is, unfortunately, clearly quantity-over-quality.
| msoad wrote:
| Can someone please do some security research on this to see what
| it sends when it calls home?
|
| I'm terrified to install a binary like that
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| These things will never be completely safe, from version to
| version, to new management. As Darth Vader one said, "I am
| altering the deal."
| throwup238 wrote:
| Pray I do not AIter it any further.
| gunian wrote:
| In this world Darth Vader wins and we get hunted like dogs
| for thought crime :)
| throwup238 wrote:
| Sounds familiar!
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metalhead_(Black_Mirror)
| gunian wrote:
| lol was hoping for ssuicide booths from futurama instead
| of black mirror :)
| throwup238 wrote:
| Just wait until OpenAi releases their Santa.
| gunian wrote:
| meet Strategic Autonomous Noel Tasking Android our fully
| autonomous robot ngl death by santa sounds a lot better
| than john doe at Super 8 lol
| CitrusFruits wrote:
| If you want the same thing but not as sketchy you can check out
| Cursor. You pay them, so it's a little more transparent what
| they're getting out of it.
| blackoil wrote:
| Unless you are using self hosted llm, you can assume all the
| code is being sent to the server. This is true for all similar
| services.
| guappa wrote:
| VScode phones home... what's the difference?
|
| Use something like emacs/vim/kate/eclipse/qtcreator if you want
| to avoid "phone home" software.
| rubslopes wrote:
| If an American company does something bad with my data, it's
| possible -- not guaranteed, but possible -- that it will be
| punished.
|
| If a Chinese company does the same, at most someone in China
| will shrug.
| darthrupert wrote:
| In an optimal world, what llms provide us is what vast libraries
| should have already 2 decades ago.
|
| But I guess instead of writing great libraries to avoid repeating
| ourselves, we drop all code to a lake monster which eats it and
| spits out answers.
| Aeolun wrote:
| Isn't this just Cursor but worse?
| tushgaurav wrote:
| It's surprisingly very good. The AI responses are very good,
| and it's free to use. They don't charge anything for
| claude-3.5-sonnet. I also love its UI even though they totally
| copied JetBrains Fleet's UI.
| gkbrk wrote:
| > They don't charge anything for claude-3.5-sonnet
|
| Makes you think about how they're extracting value from you
| to make up for this. I rack up non-significant amounts when
| using Claude 3.5 Sonnet for coding.
|
| Considering the data they siphon from their other "free"
| apps, I don't want to think about what this does on developer
| machines with code bases and production access.
| halamadrid wrote:
| My personal experience has been that very basic stuff like
| converting an object to another shape or creating a simple
| validation function or things like that has been super effective
| with AI. I've gotten so lazy that I try and prompt it to exactly
| what I want instead of even editing a bit.
|
| But the moment it gets a little less basic, its a different
| story. I absolutely hate the experience. So I love it and I hate
| it at the same time. Is it going to replace me? I don't feel like
| its there yet. And this has been the case for a while now.
|
| There is just too much money and people invested in this that its
| hard to say anything negative about it. Nearly every VC has
| rebranded their websites around an AI-driven future. And, to be
| fair, it's not a fad--it genuinely works well for many things.
| But for now, I'm still skeptical about how far it can really go.
| thekevan wrote:
| There's no way I am using a Chinese IDE with VSCode (w/ Coppilot)
| and Cursor existing after reading the privacy issues in the court
| documents with TikTok. Bytedance had some extremely overreaching
| expectations of data it wanted.
|
| That being said, I am using (Chinese) Deepseek r1 because there
| isn't currently a free LLM on par with it. I am careful with what
| I share though, a little more so than with any others that are
| not locally fun.
| ioulaum wrote:
| I doubt that this sends back tons of data.
|
| Early TikTok was basically a standard Chinese startup in terms
| of how they collected data to optimize the app... It's not
| because they cared about what "you" are doing.
|
| The Chinese tech ecosystem is just more competitive than the US
| one.
|
| Most social media companies have been careless with data until
| they got public backlash though... TikTok's systems are
| probably more secure today than anyone else's... Because of the
| backlash.
| nikkwong wrote:
| Absolutely and verifiably false. WeChat became so important
| to the CCPs surveillance interests that it was essentially
| nationalized; and other apps that grow to its scale basically
| suffer the same fate. The only reason that hasn't happened
| overtly to TikTok is because it's an international product,
| so instead the nationalization happens discretely.
| gunian wrote:
| You don't hear about the other side because people like me
| usually get murdered in cold blood there is no difference
| but for you to believe that is a singularity like me being
| treated like a human :)
| ioulaum wrote:
| It is verifiably not controlled by the CCP... Refer Project
| Texas... And all US data already being on Oracle's cloud so
| that all access can be monitored (same for auditing of all
| their algorithms for any kind of programmed bias).
|
| WeChat is an app that works inside China, so obviously it's
| subject to Chinese laws.
|
| All countries have some restrictions on what is and is not
| okay to have on online platforms. China just adds in
| "social disruption" alongside content that could promote
| violence (which would be blocked on Facebook, etc. also)
|
| You need to not just drink in propaganda... When something
| just "can't be done" (because it is being monitored), then
| it just doesn't matter even if you have ill intent.
| aredox wrote:
| ByteDance is ready to close TikTok rather than divest and
| earn billions of dollars.
|
| Does that sound like a business or an intelligence front?
| ioulaum wrote:
| No one with even a pretension to dignity would just cave in
| the face of force.
|
| Although, they do seem willing to sell potentially.
|
| China restricted them from selling their recommendation
| algorithm, and it's hard to sell TikTok without.
|
| But, TikTok did immediately start work on an independent
| algorithm that has no ties to China, so that they can sell
| it if it really comes down to it.
| samy_aik wrote:
| I think you are contradicting yourself! Also, why add "China"
| to a product when you don't attach "America" to the other. If
| you are thinking politics, fine, else we are in for tech
| advancement!
| ryang2718 wrote:
| How have you found R1? I've been meaning to try it with Aider's
| Architect mode.
|
| Have you tried the 7b?
| riskyingo wrote:
| I would rather let Chinese companies take my data than US/EU
| ones where I have bank accounts. Unless you are a super
| important, influential person, you shouldn't worry about China.
| nikkwong wrote:
| Yeah, you better hope the code that you're writing is not
| important at all.
| guappa wrote:
| It's just US, there's no EU getting your data.
| henearkr wrote:
| That can be read in a funny way, which you intended maybe?
|
| "It's just US, not EU."
| guappa wrote:
| But I'm not american, so I'm not included in US :D
| henearkr wrote:
| But then what did EU mean? ;)
| littlestymaar wrote:
| You forgot people of Chinese origin which the CCP monitors
| even abroad (scary stuff really) but yes.
| guappa wrote:
| To me USA and China are both foreign nations, and USA is the
| one who is far more aggressive in terms of army and spies.
|
| So as a non USA citizen, I'm way more afraid of USA than I am
| of China.
| piker wrote:
| This is probably true, but at least in principle one of those
| foreign nations stands for free speech and democracy and the
| other stands for censorship and authoritarianism.
|
| [Edit: hey Europeans commenting and downvoting below, note
| the words "in principle" in the above comment and evaluate
| which of the two countries do or do not purport to stand for
| these things despite whatever your hot take may be on the
| current moment.]
| guappa wrote:
| You mean the one where the nazi is in charge? The one that
| bankrolled all the right wing terrorism and mass killing of
| farmers in my country? Is that the one I should be trusting
| more?
| chucklenorris wrote:
| That's actually funny.. considering that the main reason
| TikTok ban was proposed was the lack of censorship of
| sensitive topics like a certain genocide
| littlestymaar wrote:
| > at least in principle one of those foreign nations stands
| for free speech and democracy
|
| Only of of them is hypocritical, that's it.
| herbst wrote:
| That's 2 words non US people usually don't think when they
| think US. Democracy is literally the last thing that would
| come to my mind right now.
|
| Edit:// "In principle" chinas gov stands for stability,
| economic development and national unity...
| looofooo0 wrote:
| Lol, you can shitpost anything about any politician in
| the USA. Hang any flag on your car, house etc. and you
| will be fine. Try the same in China.
| herbst wrote:
| Huh? Does that negate the missing democracy, the
| political distrust and the political censorship within
| your country?
|
| I am happy for you and your flags.
|
| However I didn't claim that china is more "free" just
| that the US definitely isn't seen as that from the
| outside anymore. It's not always a direct competition
| guappa wrote:
| You can shitpost but the algorithm will make sure it
| doesn't get read :)
| piker wrote:
| > Edit:// "In principle" chinas gov stands for stability,
| economic development and national unity...
|
| As did Stalin, Mussolini, Hirohito and the National
| Socialist Party. It's the "how" that matters.
| yard2010 wrote:
| Exactly. What's the big idea to be strong and stable when
| you have no respect whatsoever for human lives? You can
| just kill the competition!
|
| Sacha Baron Cohen's The Dictator is a piece of art that
| demonstrates this absurdity in the best possible way.
| guappa wrote:
| No, Mussolini openly despised democracy.
|
| Please don't be teaching history without having spent
| even 5 minutes learning it :)
| piker wrote:
| Perhaps you might spend 5 minutes reading the quoted
| comment again and note the absence of "democracy".
| easyThrowaway wrote:
| Given the last few days, As a EU citizen I'm not so sure
| such distinction is fully accurate anymore. And I'm pretty
| sure in 2 to 3 years from today the distinction will be
| even less noticeable.
|
| I wouldn't trust a US data company to not capitulate to...
| "personal requests" by Musk or Trump any more than I trust
| it not happening in an hungarian, russian, turkish or
| chinese one with their respective leadership (official or
| otherwise).
| sausagefeet wrote:
| If you woke up tomorrow in either USA or China, which would
| you prefer to wake up in and why?
| grardb wrote:
| I feel the need to point out that while many people might
| understand the point you're trying to make, the way this
| question is phrased doesn't do the best job of conveying
| it.
|
| If I was presented with two options: waking up tomorrow as
| the child of a poor farmer in a third-world country, or
| waking up as one of Donald Trump's children, I would
| definitely choose the latter. However, that doesn't mean
| that I trust Trump more than I would trust the farmer. In
| other words, quality of life (or a preferred way of living)
| are not inherently tied to trust, morality, or anything
| like that.
| rthrfrd wrote:
| Why did you choose to wake up as the child of a peasant
| in one country but the child of the president in another?
|
| Quality of life is inherently tied to trust and morality
| - both in terms of the effect of fear (a lack of trust)
| or isolation (a lack of moral consensus, or equality and
| sense of shared belonging).
| guappa wrote:
| If you want to pay me a trip, I'd gladly go to both, and
| leave my regular electronic devices at home while crossing
| both borders :D
| bromuro wrote:
| Living in these countries sounds to me like a nightmare
| (and I am from a 3rd world country). I'd prefer China
| because the ancient culture, history and thriving economy.
| rthrfrd wrote:
| 3rd world country or not - I hope you appreciate that you
| are incredibly fortunate for "ancient culture" and
| "history" to be 2 of your top 3 considerations for where
| to live and the quality of life that would give you.
|
| Perhaps revalidate the "thriving economy" assertion
| before taking the plunge though (and be mindful of how
| hyper-localised that is).
| miningape wrote:
| I think you're unaware of just how aggressive China is. Look
| at their neighbours and their policies - they don't have a
| single friend because everyone is afraid of their bullying
| behaviour backed up by their military.
|
| Look at conquered regions like Tibet and Xinjiang.
|
| Look at how they set up police forces in foreign countries to
| keep an eye on Chinese citizens living abroad. Even having
| kidnapped and illegally held Chinese citizens in England
| because they posted anti-CCP messages on WeChat.
|
| Look at countries like the Phillipines (not even a direct
| neighbour) who are trying to hold on to small fishing islands
| just off their coast because the CCP claimed those islands in
| the 1970s.
|
| Remember a few years ago when they ran a week long military
| exercise around Taiwan... because a US representative spoke
| to the Taiwanese president. Sure I agree with you that the US
| also overstepped a line here, but for your response to be
| shelling the waters around the island is excessive to say the
| least.
|
| Look at the aggressive nationalist and imperialist news they
| feed their own population, and the propaganda spread to make
| the Japanese seem like demons. Did you know there are several
| theme parks in China where children are encouraged to
| Bayonette a mannequin of Japanese Imperialist soldiers?
|
| Call the US as bad as you like, but I've never seen a theme
| park where children are actively taught how to kill and
| demonise the Taliban or Nazis.
| spencerflem wrote:
| You could say all of that about the American empire.
|
| We renamed it to the Gulf of America, talk about annexing
| Canada, own Hawaii, fund the colony of Israel, invented
| Manifest Destony, destabilize democracy via the CIA,
| firebombed Vietnam, etc etc etc
|
| And don't talk to me abt Chinese spying when the NSA and
| Five Eyes hoovers up and processes the entire internet.
|
| Re: propaganda, read your own comment. The American
| propaganda machine got you to demonize China pretty well
|
| And to top it all off, despite having a much smaller
| population AMERICA HAS MORE PRISONERS THAN CHINA. Its
| insane!
| miningape wrote:
| In general I do agree (except for the recent Canada stuff
| - I believe it's more of a bluff than anything else)
|
| But I want to respond to this:
|
| > And to top it all off, despite having a much smaller
| population AMERICA HAS MORE PRISONERS THAN CHINA. Its
| insane
|
| 1. The US publically acknowledges who is in prison, China
| doesn't. You can be disappeared in China without anyone
| knowing.
|
| 2. The Chinese operate several Black prisons both within
| and without their borders. These are Prisons without
| actual sentences, laws or rights. The public doesn't even
| know of their existence. This is where you land up as a
| political prisoner in China.
|
| 3. The Chinese have placed thousands of Uigur muslims in
| "re-education camps" (not prisons) - many of whom are
| only guilty by association (i.e. there's no direct crime
| the CCP arrested them for, other than being a blood
| relative of someone who did commit one of these "crimes")
|
| 4. Chinese police are already spread thin enough dealing
| with all the political prisoners meaning there are many
| dangerous criminals who are freely committing crimes in
| China. The CCP keeps this information under tight wraps
| so as not to cause a panic. As a result the Chinese are a
| lot less cautious than they should be so (unofficial)
| crime levels are much higher than they should be. It's
| not uncommon to hear of (or see) Children who were
| kidnapped and had their limbs chopped off so they could
| beg more effectively - there has never been a widespread
| crackdown on this behaviour and many perpetrators are
| still walking the streets forcing children to beg for
| them.
|
| 5. Not to even talk about the prison organ harvesting
| claims made by several groups who have been persecuted by
| the CCP. From Falun Gong practitioners to Uigur muslims.
|
| Also don't be lazy and just call this propaganda - I
| could easily do the same with other messages in this
| thread ("CCP propaganda") meaning it's not a strong
| argument to anyone on the fence / on the other side. Yes,
| it is very anti-China, but that's because I'm trying to
| bring it in contrast to the very anti-US message. I don't
| think either country is perfect and in fact I prefer to
| not live in (or near) either.
| redcobra762 wrote:
| The US is largely talk, vs. the substantial action China
| takes and has taken against territories it considers its
| own.
|
| The US importantly has a robust and independent judiciary
| where a fair trial is infinitely more likely than in
| China. Even for foreigners, the US legal system is
| accessible, understandable, and weildable for protection.
| It's far from perfect, but 100x what you'd get in China.
| guappa wrote:
| > US importantly has a robust and independent judiciary
| where a fair trial is infinitely more likely than in
| China
|
| Except if you have an abortion. Then laws don't matter.
| redcobra762 wrote:
| ...this makes zero sense.
| descendant wrote:
| I would like to highlight the small bit of positive in
| the American system. I don't support the removal of
| abortion law, nor do I like mixing religion with
| politics. But, due to the system that exists in the USA,
| even though the government removed the right to abortion,
| the individual states can still support it and form their
| own laws around it. However, a similar situation in other
| countries would result in complete removal without any
| option.
| spencerflem wrote:
| Give it like a year, I promise you it will be banned
| federally
| redcobra762 wrote:
| A bill banning abortion nationally would need 60 votes in
| the Senate, which it will not get.
|
| They already started this work yesterday:
| https://www.politico.com/live-
| updates/2025/01/22/congress/se...
| spencerflem wrote:
| They're persistent - I wouldn't be surprised if some
| senators are found to be unamerican and impeached
| lossolo wrote:
| Was Iraq also talk when US invaded it in violation of
| international law? Not to mention overthrowing
| democratically elected governments in South America.
|
| Which countries did China invade in the last 3 decades?
| guappa wrote:
| Can you compare the military spending of one vs the other
| and report back please?
|
| I never said china has never done anything bad. There is no
| such country on the planet.
|
| China doing bad stuff doesn't make the bad stuff the other
| countries do disappear, and my point remains valid on which
| one is more of a threat to nationals of other countries.
| miningape wrote:
| I'm not making the claim that the US is innocent because
| China did all this stuff. I'm making the claim that I
| would feel much safer living on the Mexican-American,
| Canadian-American border or even in Panama, than I would
| near any of China's current conflicts. And that China is
| just as aggressive (if not more so) with their
| neighbours.
|
| At least if the Americans win I don't have to be worried
| about becoming a political prisoner, forced into re-
| education camps, or having my organs harvested.
|
| Also there are many more conflicts _currently_ where
| China is involved than the US.
| guappa wrote:
| I'm sure Canadians are feeling real safe with the threats
| of imminent invasion.
|
| I live in scandinavia and I can tell you people aren't
| feeling particularly safe about USA not going to invade.
|
| (I don't think they'll do it for real... but then again I
| also didn't think Putin would go into Ukraine for real
| so, don't take my work as gospel)
| animuchan wrote:
| Taliban is a terrorist group, painting them in a bad light
| is factual.
|
| Nazis, also factual.
|
| So I don't think I fully understand the last sentence. Do
| you mean it's not appropriate for specifically _minors_ to
| have a theme park about how Nazis are bad guys? Because
| there's a lot of western content to this effect, including
| movies and video games, which are also accessible to
| children.
|
| If anything, Chinese content guidelines usually prohibit
| graphical display of violence, so it's much more of a
| milquetoast thing than e.g. South Park.
| miningape wrote:
| This is fair and I think reflects my personal opinions on
| keeping children out of politics.
|
| My point is more to do with seeing little kids being
| dressed up in CCP uniforms, handed a bayonette, and told
| to charge at the Japanese. I also agree we see this
| around the world "including movies and video games, which
| are also accessible to children" but I draw the line
| where it's being encouraged by the government to do these
| actions in person. Combine this with the anti-japanese
| rhetoric taught in primary education and it's a nasty
| combination*. [1]
|
| Another thing to consider is that children are generally
| not given access to games/movies/whatever that have such
| mature themes by their parents.
|
| I'd make this same argument if I saw US children being
| dressed up as US soldiers and asked to charge at Nazi
| "soldiers". Even though we can both (hopefully) agree
| that Nazi ideologies are/were disgusting and deserve to
| be bayonetted.
|
| > If anything, Chinese content guidelines usually
| prohibit graphical display of violence, so it's much more
| of a milquetoast thing than e.g. South Park.
|
| Not when the Japanese or another of China's enemies are
| involved. Then it's gloves off.
|
| * Also I do want to give some slack here too, the
| Japanese have never acknowledged or apologised for their
| attrocities in WW2.
|
| [1] https://asiatimes.com/2024/07/china-scrambling-to-
| unplug-ant...
| spencerflem wrote:
| The house overwhelmingly passed https://www.congress.gov/
| 118/bills/hr5349/BILLS-118hr5349rfs... , requiring all
| high schoolers
|
| "(A) learn that communism has led to the deaths of over
| 100,000,000 victims worldwide;
|
| (B) understand the dangers of communism and similar
| political ideologies; and
|
| (C) understand that 1,500,000,000 people still suffer
| under communism."
|
| Including an oral history "Portraits in Patriotism"
|
| If this isn't propaganda against the CCP I don't know
| what is. Call it truthful or not, kids are being told
| China is The Enemy.
|
| They're dressed up in military uniforms as early as
| middle school if you're in JROTC.
|
| And funny you bring up them suppressing hate speech when
| here in America we've recently decided to do the opposite
| with X and Facebook.
| Iny0ka wrote:
| Fact check: China has strong ties with Central Asian
| states, Russia, NK, Myanmar, Laos, Cambodia, Pakistan.
| Regional tensions mainly involve US-allied nations.
| yard2010 wrote:
| Why don't you ask the kids at Tiananmen Square? / Was
| fashion the reason why they were there?
| animuchan wrote:
| I'm thinking about this the same way, if a bit more
| selfishly: as a non-US citizen, I might want to move to the
| US in the future.
|
| Which is why I would like the US govt to have as little data
| as possible about me (who knows what the mainstream politics
| will look like, things that are very innocent today might be
| punishable by death in 10 years).
|
| Chinese govt, on the other hand, can have my data freely,
| since I don't think I'll ever move to the Mainland China.
| latexr wrote:
| > I might want to move to the US in the future.
|
| > (...) (who knows what the mainstream politics will look
| like, things that are very innocent today might be
| punishable by death in 10 years).
|
| Maybe it's just me, but I don't think I'd ever consider
| moving to a country where I believed politics to be so
| unstable that an action could go from "very innocent" to
| "punishable by death" in the span of a decade.
| animuchan wrote:
| You're right of course. Unless my current place turns
| into a (more) active warzone, I won't consider
| relocating.
|
| (I also understand that my outsider view on the US
| political system isn't well-informed. Still, better safe
| than sorry.)
| echoangle wrote:
| I couldn't name a single country on earth where I would
| be certain that this could not happen. 10 years is a long
| time, a lot can happen politically.
| latexr wrote:
| We're talking about going from fully innocent and legal
| action to full on death penalty _in just over two terms_
| (depending on country). That seems quite a stretch for
| many countries where the death penalty was abolished.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_by_count
| ry
|
| It doesn't seem plausible that in countries where even
| euthanasia isn't allowed things could get so out of hand
| that the death penalty would not only be reimplemented
| but it would devolve so fast that you'd start executing
| people for things which aren't even crimes right now.
| CryptoBanker wrote:
| You are literally debating something that hasn't happened
| yet. The death penalty example was just that, an
| _example_
| latexr wrote:
| Clearly the death penalty was _not_ just an example,
| seeing as the reply from that same user made a good point
| about their own country becoming a war zone.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42803165
|
| I recommend you stop assuming what other people meant and
| nitpicking for no discernible reason. The only one
| debating here is you, and you're doing it with yourself.
| cma wrote:
| Look at what almost just happened in South Korea, it can
| be very sudden and out of character.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Maybe it's just me but... personally I wouldn't move to a
| country in which more than half of the voters are pro a
| public jury-convicted criminal. I'm also reluctant to
| move to any country in which proper healthcare is
| reserved for the rich. I can't imagine moving to a
| country that is pro-life and pro-guns at the same time. A
| country that approves of, let alone encourages, getting
| rich by pump and dump of virtual freshly invented coins.
| Same sentiment i have about a country that approves of
| deportation of illegal immigrants, poor or rich, child or
| adult, criminal offender or not.
| yard2010 wrote:
| In 1-2 decades Mainland China will move to you ;)
| computerthings wrote:
| That something else is even more toxic doesn't make poison
| not poison. It's not a choice between what poison you pick,
| but between accepting or rejecting poison.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| A poison is not going to harm you unless it makes no
| contact with your body; what GP is saying is, regardless of
| which one is more potent, it's safer to pick the one you're
| least likely to ever find yourself near.
| computerthings wrote:
| It's safer to not ingest any poison. You don't extinguish
| fire with gasoline because kerosene might be worse. You
| don't eat rat poison because fentanyl would be worse.
| It's a false dichotomy.
| TeMPOraL wrote:
| It's not a false dichotomy - the entire analogy to poison
| makes no sense, because US or China spying on people's
| activity on-line is currently a complete nothingburger.
| If anything, _adtech_ is actually doing real harm to
| people this way, but that harm is still relatively small
| and indirect, _which is why most people don 't care_.
| roenxi wrote:
| And, logically - if we're worried about spying - it actually
| makes the most sense for average Chinese people to use US
| software and vice versa. The biggest threat to a person is
| always the police & military of their own country.
|
| For example, China killed _a lot_ of people. They were all
| Chinese.
| redcobra762 wrote:
| Then you know nothing of how China operates its military or
| its intelligence gathering apparatus. Ask any of the parts of
| the world that disagree with China about their sovereignty...
| guappa wrote:
| I don't see tanks in taiwan...
|
| What I see is this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c
| ountries_with_oversea...
|
| As I've already said, I never claimed china are the good
| guys. Just that they aren't the worse guys.
| redcobra762 wrote:
| ...you realize the US is invited to be in those
| countries, right?
|
| And why would you see enemy tanks on an island? What you
| do see are many many Chinese ships and planes, constantly
| violating Taiwanese air and sea boundaries.
| guappa wrote:
| "invited" :D
| roca wrote:
| That makes you an outlier. Despite everything, millions of
| people are still desperate to get into the USA. China, not so
| much.
| knowitnone wrote:
| good for you. don't ever visit the US because they are
| watching you closely
| chvid wrote:
| As far as I can tell this is operated out of Singapore, which
| is not some communist backwater, according to the law there and
| on top of US big tech infrastructure. The models this editor
| work with are by Anthropic and OpenAI both US companies.
| truekonrads wrote:
| Singapore or not, these TOS grant you nada in terms of
| privacy. You'd be a fool to use this: We may use Your Content
| to provide the Services to you and to other users, including
| without limitation troubleshooting, diagnostics, security and
| safety reviews, and customer support requests. You hereby
| grant to us, our affiliates and our third party partners
| ("SPRING Parties") an unconditional, irrevocable, non-
| exclusive, royalty-free, sublicensable, transferable,
| perpetual and worldwide license, to reproduce, use, and
| modify Your Content in connection with the provision and
| improvement of the Services and its underlying technologies,
| as well as for the SPRING Parties' respective business
| operations, in each case, to the extent permitted by
| applicable laws.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| One nuance to consider regarding Bytedance: TikTok's CEO is
| also based in Singapore, but is a former Xiaomi executive who
| worked in Beijing for years. The firm's employees in places
| like Singapore could be coerced by the government of China
| because of their friends, family, assets there.
|
| Employees of Bytedance (and other Chinese companies) have to
| deal with draconian employee rules and agreements that tie
| them back to the rules of their Chinese mainland parent
| corporation and the Chinese government itself. For example
| look at the details that came out in this lawsuit against
| TikTok, where employees have to agree to uphold Chinese
| national interests, uphold socialism, etc.
|
| https://dailycaller.com/2025/01/14/tiktok-forced-staff-
| oaths...
| ioulaum wrote:
| Apparently the target market for this is supposed to be "Chinese
| coders living abroad".
|
| Thus it supporting English and Chinese languages.
|
| And it may be a competitive step taken after Alibaba launched
| their new coding assistant.
| nurumaik wrote:
| Isn't any modern llm inherently multilingual?
| homebrewer wrote:
| Not really, there' a world of difference between how _every_
| model I 've tried1 handles English vs my own native
| language2. It's especially noticeable with smaller models,
| which produce coherent English, but completely break down in
| other languages: spewing out incorrect grammar, mixing words
| from other languages where they make zero sense, etc.
|
| 1: which is dozens of them at this point, open and not.
|
| 2: with lots of speakers and training data.
| gunian wrote:
| Would finetuning fix this? If they are statstical parrots
| it would seem like it wouldn't
| ioulaum wrote:
| Probably tough to fix small models with fine-tuning...
| You'd likely need to train them with enough data from
| languages (and maybe translations between them) that they
| need to support, so that they can connect ideas in
| different languages properly.
|
| Separately, the fact that they can translate between
| languages where they have never seen any translation data
| in their inputs shows that they have internal models of
| the world and language, that go beyond what one might
| expect from a statistical parrot.
|
| They do have world understanding - perhaps limited some
| by the fact that their input data may not cover a lot of
| everyday things.
| ioulaum wrote:
| LLM aside (which is just GPT-4o and Claude 3.5), I imagine
| that the GUI for the IDE may have better Chinese support in
| some way.
|
| Although I haven't tried to find a Chinese mode myself.
|
| That it's targeted at Chinese abroad is just what I saw from
| Googling it and reading the SCMP (Singapore) article on it.
|
| The company that made it is also from Singapore (even if it's
| under Bytedance's umbrella).
|
| They seem to be separate from TikTok. The only thing they
| have in the app store for example, is some chatbot
| application.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| No Windows or Linux versions. The Chinese are Rich.
| RamblingCTO wrote:
| I've been toying with roo-code (cline fork) and it's fun. Before
| you give out your data to china maybe consider that or continue.
| entropyneur wrote:
| It's hard enough to avoid Chinese electronics, I'm not about to
| start using Chinese software.
| jbverschoor wrote:
| You should be running any dev stuff in a VM / Container anyway
| because of all the supply chain attacks / typo malware
| doix wrote:
| I see many comments about not using this because China/ByteDance
| stealing data, etc. I get it for for enterprise, you don't want
| your code leaking to the outside world, even if in my experience,
| the code is mostly garbage and not worth that much.
|
| But if it's for some personal project that you're putting on
| Github, does it matter? If my code is going on Github anyway,
| it's going to get slurped up regardless. I don't particularly
| care if it gets processed by Cursor or ByteDance before it gets
| scraped.
| littlestymaar wrote:
| I'm glad people care about their personal data, I just wished
| they cared as much when talking about ChatGPT, because in
| reality if you're not a Chinese dissident living abroad, then
| OpenAI is much more dangerous to you than the CCP.
| jay-barronville wrote:
| > [...] in reality if you're not a Chinese dissident living
| abroad, then OpenAI is much more dangerous to you than the
| CCP.
|
| Correct.
|
| I laugh a little every time I hear some folks immediately
| push the "Big Bad China is just trying to steal our data"
| narrative. My immediate reaction is, "Grab some tea and let's
| sit down real quick, so I can tell you what some of our
| companies right here in America and our government do with
| our data."
| kstrauser wrote:
| It's legal to be opposed to both, you know. At least OpenAI
| is in my legal jurisdiction.
| descendant wrote:
| Agreed. I get that both might have the same level of
| access to my data but if I was staying in USA, I would be
| much more okay with my data getting in the hands of an
| organization which is within the jurisdiction of the
| democratic country I live in. Also, given the global
| political scenario, China is considered a
| competitor/enemy due to opposite ideologies (not my
| personal opinion) so the choice is obvious. However,
| whether USA is/will stay a democracy for long is a longer
| debate.
| knowitnone wrote:
| OpenAI does not have a history of disappearing people and
| when they return, their attitude has completely changed (see
| Jack Ma). OpenAI does not have a history of aggression
| against other nations shipping vessels. OpenAI does not have
| a history of corporate espionage and IP theft. OpenAI does
| not have a history of setting up police stations in other
| nations. OpenAI does not have a history of operating an
| illegal bio-lab in foreign nations. That's pretty defamatory
| to compare OpenAI to the CCP. OpenAI does not have a history
| of spreading a virus that killed millions and pointing
| fingers at other nations.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| About the virus: you really need to be less in the company
| of people thinking up conspiracy theories. Remember that a
| pandemic has always been predicted in a 'not if but when'
| sense.
|
| For the rest of the provided history feats, I can't really
| tell but most of it appeared indeed in established
| newschannels.
| mig1 wrote:
| Facebook, Cambridge Analytica, Sponsoring a genocide... the
| moral differences between the US and the CCP are imaginary.
| d0mine wrote:
| If we are talking countries here, then all that you've
| mentioned is done by both sides. If we are talking
| companies then as far as I know only one of them is
| developing killer robots (guess which one).
| diggan wrote:
| > But if it's for some personal project that you're putting on
| Github, does it matter?
|
| I don't think the fear is that they'll steal code you'll end
| putting publicly on GitHub, but everything else. I guess there
| is some fear that it won't just analyze and process what you
| currently have open, but might scrape your computer for more
| data and so on.
|
| I personally don't believe ByteDance would be stupid enough to
| even attempt exfiltrating files from developers machines, which
| typically are better protected than the average user computer,
| just trying to see the perspective of others with a more
| charitable reading :)
| throwaind29k wrote:
| You don't trust the OS do that kind of safeguarding?
| ryandrake wrote:
| Desktop OS's typically don't protect one application's data
| from another, or the system's data from an application. At
| least not out of the box without configuring some kind of
| sandboxing solution.
|
| The user-based permissions model is an outdated dinosaur
| from a time when we could trust the applications we run on
| our systems to act on our behalf. Applications now act on
| the developer's behalf, often against the user. An
| application "running as me" should not have access to every
| resource (file or peripheral) on the device that I have
| access to. That's a huge blast radius.
|
| Operating Systems really need to start treating developers
| as adversarial from a security/permissions point of view.
| djhn wrote:
| Macs have started prompting for confirmation when
| software requests access to some directories. It's better
| than nothing, but the OS doesn't really have any kind of
| tutorial explaining how the permissions work and which
| directories are covered.
| Coryodaniel wrote:
| Trust em or not ... had that happen to someone else using
| Cursor a few weeks back. I ran a prompt for refactoring a
| function and all of a sudden it started dumping someone
| else's directory structure and file contents into my text
| file. Like hundreds of files. Not exactly sure what happened
| but I immediately uninstalled Cursor.
| knowitnone wrote:
| so all your code goes on Github because mine certainly does not
| debugpro wrote:
| I wrote a Tetris game with it, but there's a bug where the blocks
| suddenly disappear while falling. I haven't been able to fix the
| bug, and I'm not sure if it's an issue with the IDE or Sonnet.
| The experience isn't very good.
| kleiba wrote:
| I've lost track: what are the current sota alternatives that I
| can run locally? What's the preferred IDE that integrates AI
| nicely?
| thejocker6 wrote:
| VSCode with the continue plugin. Might work with VSCodium as
| well, but haven't tried it yet.
| pasc1878 wrote:
| Interesting that the macOS download is Intel and not Apple
| Silicon
| _ink_ wrote:
| So how is it different from: https://www.marscode.com/ ?
|
| Also, anybody knows a decent IDE where AI is a first class
| citizen? So far my experience with plugins is, that they have too
| little context to be actually useful.
| epaga wrote:
| Cursor has been absolutely game-changing for me, especially its
| Composer Agent mode.
| _ink_ wrote:
| Looks great indeed. Unfortunately without local LLM support
| it's a nogo for my company. :(
| Sharon_Q wrote:
| Why do Chinese Internet companies tend to monopolize the market
| with free strategies?
| pogue wrote:
| This post got political almost instantly. Unfortunate, but
| expected in today's client, I suppose.
|
| Regardless, what is this exactly?
| jm547ster wrote:
| Seems to have been heavily downvoted also, it's flown off the
| front page. Times have changes for HN. Also double standard
| when it comes to the like of Deepseek r1 earlier this week
| :shrug:
| chvid wrote:
| I took it for a spin and it looks great - a great way of playing
| with a LLM. Sure some of the elements are in IntelliJ, Copilot,
| or maybe Cursor (which I haven't tried) but it is all very well
| put together.
|
| Recommended.
|
| (But of course it would be nice to be able to run it against a
| local model which doesn't seem possible at the moment.)
| BonoboIO wrote:
| Pair programming with your invisible Chinese coworkers, you don't
| even know you have.
| powerapple wrote:
| Where does it say it is done by ByteDance? I would definitely use
| it it is really done by ByteDance... Couldn't find any
| information of ByteDance on the page though.
| humanlity wrote:
| So tired of such news
| csomar wrote:
| A disappointment as this is yet another wrapper around VSCode. It
| doesn't change/re-invent the current paradigms of writing code.
|
| Effort would have been much better spent on getting AI auto-
| complete "merged" with LSP. But who is listening? Pretty much
| everyone these days think they can plug an LLM and have their
| life issues sorted out.
| icar wrote:
| Please, please, stop the AI IDEs...
| plun9 wrote:
| Why?
| Alifatisk wrote:
| When will it be released to homebrew?
| ilikegreen wrote:
| Very unrelated, but: I run Linux on an older Thinkpad and I
| appreciate _fast_ websites. This is a very well-designed website!
| It loads fast and it scrolls quite quickly.
|
| Does anybody feel the same? I feel like nobody touched upon this,
| but it's always very nice to feel interfaces are responsive.
| matheusd wrote:
| Interesting, I have the exact polar opposite perception.
|
| I accessed this through a Qubes AppVM (no GPU, limited memory
| and CPU budget) and the presence of videos makes this a very
| slow scrolling experience for me.
|
| In general, anything that involves JS/CSS
| animation/blur/effects makes sites pretty slow (up to unusable
| for me). The unlogged homepage for github.com for example,
| spins my cpu at 100%.
| meiraleal wrote:
| A developers tool not available for Linux?
| lostmsu wrote:
| From the top 4 here
| https://survey.stackoverflow.co/2024/technology#1-integrated...
| only 2 are: - vs code - vs -
| IntelliJ IDEA - Notepad++
| khantsithu wrote:
| this is nice, i love chinese free products haha
| 1317 wrote:
| ah, so _that 's_ what they were scraping my git host for!
| serverlessmania wrote:
| claude-sonnet for free! How?
| miah_ wrote:
| No
| codr7 wrote:
| The last thing I need, truly.
|
| If I ever have a need for buggy crap code, any random boot camp
| dev can write it for no money at all.
| poki89 wrote:
| It looks like a lot of Chinese companies have started open
| sourcing.
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