[HN Gopher] Japan's original decluttering guru (no, not that one)
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Japan's original decluttering guru (no, not that one)
Author : whack
Score : 62 points
Date : 2025-01-17 19:40 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nytimes.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nytimes.com)
| neonate wrote:
| https://archive.ph/11vI1
| GolDDranks wrote:
| Based on my experience of just listening convos around me,
| danshari is the more popular method in Japan. At least, people
| talk about it more.
| yapyap wrote:
| Assuming you're addressing the "(no not that one)", they say
| that cause Kondo is the famous one in the USA and the nytimes
| is a US based newspaper
| dang wrote:
| [stub for offtopicness]
| a3w wrote:
| [flagged]
| GolDDranks wrote:
| > making her basically German anyway.
|
| Huh?
| csa wrote:
| > The other one is named Marie, making her basically German
| anyway.
|
| Dude, it's Ma Li Hui , which merely romanizes to "Marie", and
| it's very Japanese.
| criddell wrote:
| According to the article, Ms. Yamashita is 70 and Ms. Kondo is
| 40.
|
| Why do newspapers sometimes list the person's age? The front
| page has a bunch of Trump stories, but none of those list his
| age. What criteria are they using to decide if age should be
| included?
| snickerbockers wrote:
| Because trump has been all over front pages for a decade now
| and konmari hasn't?
| criddell wrote:
| Ok, that could make sense, but this story:
|
| https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/15/world/asia/china-
| thailand...
|
| is also on their front page and nobody's age is listed.
| conductr wrote:
| Is it because the article's purpose is to explain which of
| these lady's came first regardless of popularity? I don't
| think the articles regarding Trump are written for that
| purpose and so age isn't really even important context to
| provide. Not to mention he's so well known I don't think they
| would need to mention his age in every article about him,
| perhaps if the article was discussing age of politicians as a
| topic they would mention it, as context is relevant
| asimovfan wrote:
| What about the zen aesthetic that came with buddhism
| novosel wrote:
| "Ms. Yamashita first encountered danshari during her university
| years in Tokyo, when she studied yoga and Buddhist teachings
| that emphasized letting go of attachments. After graduating
| [...] she began applying these principles to declutter her own
| home."
| rtkwe wrote:
| The modern trend and it's connection with the Buddhist
| teachings of letting go of worldly attachments is mentioned
| several times in the article. I'd say that's a step beyond the
| modern decluttering gurus, though they clearly and explicitly
| share ideological roots.
| ww520 wrote:
| I found moving to be a good declutterring method. It's a definite
| event to clean up most things in life. The difficulties in moving
| will make you think twice about acquiring unnecessary stuffs once
| settled down.
| snarf21 wrote:
| Agreed. I think most people would be a lot happier if they got
| rid of half their stuff.
|
| Then, next year, get rid of half again. We all keep so much and
| acquire so much that brings stress not joy.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| The only thing I regret getting rid of is books. I've moved
| many times and thinned my shelves severely each time. In
| retrospect I realize that I often want to refer back to them
| or show someone else something I had read. That being said
| I'd be lying if I said the value wasn't mostly sentimental.
| ghaff wrote:
| Books can become this really religious thing for a lot of
| people. I take stuff down for the annual library book sale
| fairly regularly--and I've intensified over the past year
| or two. I know that a lot will end up pulped anyway but I'm
| at the point where I know a lot of what I still own won't
| be re-read or consulted. Still have way too much.
| neilv wrote:
| I was a books person, and got rid of _all_ of my books.
|
| Maybe _all_ is easier than _some_?
|
| Only on rare occasions do I miss any of them, and that's
| not enough to make carting them around and storing them
| worthwhile.
|
| Also, having the the books go to good homes makes a
| difference in regrets. My sf collection, for example, got
| more use in its public library home, than I ever could've
| given it. And this one book that I think was inscribed by a
| famous writer (not their own book, but a gift to a friend
| of theirs), and which had randomly come into my hands, I in
| turn randomly gave to an ER nurse who'd had asked about it.
|
| The only books I really should've kept were the two that
| friends had inscribed to me, but those were lost in a
| tricky move.
| snarf21 wrote:
| I got rid of all my books a while ago and it was freeing.
| No more Tsondoku for me :)
|
| Previously, I always gave away books to friends after
| reading. Knowing someone else will enjoy them mitigates any
| loss aversion emotions (for me at least).
| hinkley wrote:
| I only kept books I would read again. But at some point I
| realized that was getting away from me, and I had all of
| these books I had in fact read twice but ten-plus years
| ago. The question was if I would read them a third or
| fourth time.
|
| New books keep coming out, and this might be the last time
| in your life you read this book, and then you give it away.
| That statement is pretty straightforward when you're young.
| When you get older it takes on a different meaning. I won't
| have time for this.
|
| So far it's only been a couple of series. I've had a lot of
| free time this year and I've read 3 times as many books as
| I have in my next best year in the last decade, so I may be
| able to revise that down, however I've also added a lot of
| authors in that process, which just puts more pressure on
| award winning books from thirty, sixty years ago.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| Moving is awesome for that reason. You are forced to really
| reckon with "do I care enough about this to put effort into
| moving it", and most times the answer will be no. Moving is a
| pain for other reasons though.
| hinkley wrote:
| "I have moved this stupid thing twice already and almost
| never use it. I should borrow one instead."
|
| It's funny how items that are easy to pack survive a lot
| longer than ones that are awkward.
| ghaff wrote:
| I just had a kitchen fire which also dumped smoke throughout
| the house and a big cleaning operation is going on. I've
| resolved that a lot of the stuff that is in the process of
| being removed from shelves, cabinets, closets, etc. won't go
| back.
|
| I had already pruned a fair bit, especially over the last
| year, but this will be a real forcing function.
| neilv wrote:
| After moving every 1-2 years, many times -- and eventually
| getting all my belongings down to literally a few boxes, 2
| suitcases, and a futon -- it bothered me to own things.
|
| The next apartment I moved into was a dump. I promised myself
| it was only for a year, and I wasn't even going to buy a
| dresser for my clothes. I simply used said 2 suitcases, slid
| under said futon's frame.
|
| A few years later, I was still in the same place, still "living
| out of a suitcase", still averse to owning things that would
| make leaving more difficult.
|
| My current place, I go through cycles of acquiring comforts and
| conveniences, and then culling things I don't really need in
| the near term, repeat.
| hinkley wrote:
| Buying my first bed was a weird experience. Every time I move
| from now on, I'll need a truck to do so, not just family and
| friends. At that point a couch instead of chairs is a "might
| as well" moment.
| neilv wrote:
| Yep, I remember that. Before getting one, I slept on the
| carpet with a sheet in a couple apartments.
|
| And mattresses and sofas indeed are what complicates a lot
| of moving logistics, IME. Everything else I could move
| myself, even cross-town on a cart, without renting a van.
| I'm thinking, my next move, it might be easier/cheaper just
| to give them away, and buy new ones on the other side.
| hinkley wrote:
| If you only moved every six or so years that's not
| actually a terrible plan. Most of us keep out mattresses
| too long. I hesitate to think how old mine is.
| neilv wrote:
| I don't know whether it helps mattress longevity, but
| mine has been in an allergy encasement since I bought it,
| with a foam topper inside.
|
| My IKEA sofa is visibly ready for new slipcovers, though.
| hinkley wrote:
| A quality box spring or a solid platform under the
| mattress is definitely supposed to help. I have the
| latter, and in a material with just a little give. It
| also keeps the bed down at couch height. Our dog with the
| stumpy legs thinks my bed is the best thing ever and he
| tries to convince everyone else in the house that they
| should have one just like it by hopping on my bed, making
| significant eye contact with them and muttering in dog
| trying to get them to check it out.
| urda wrote:
| Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/16/business/hideko-
| yamashita...
| jasoneckert wrote:
| I must say, however, that Marie Kondo's method does work well.
| I've used it on several occasions, and felt good about it
| afterwards.
|
| The only thing I find it doesn't work well with are the dozens of
| old SUN computers I have in my basement, because they all SPARC
| joy.
| MattGrommes wrote:
| Oh boy. Take your upvote and go.
| astrange wrote:
| "Spark joy" was actually sort of just made up by the English
| translator. I do think it's cute but the original was something
| like "makes your heart flutter", which is a bit stranger.
|
| A side effect of this is it got bad reviews from British people
| because they're offended by the idea of feeling joy.
| 38 wrote:
| Groan
| _tariky wrote:
| I find it interesting that people with a lot of storage space
| tend to fill it with things they don't need. My father is the
| king of clutter he has 500 square meters of storage filled with
| trash he doesn't need. When I tell him to throw something away,
| he just says, "I might need it one day," but that day never
| comes.
| harrall wrote:
| I can relate to people telling me that my place is too small.
| It's not that small -- you just collect too much stuff.
|
| My decluttering method, which goes with the idea of making it to
| feel okay to part with stuff, is to always have set aside space
| for everything. Outside of that space, I cannot take in any more
| items.
|
| My closet has only so many hangers. If I want to buy new clothes,
| it must mean that I have to get rid of old ones. It helps prevent
| me from needlessly buying things that I don't need and it also
| forces me to clean out my closet.
|
| Essentially I am forced into a mostly constant state of zen
| regarding my belongings and I rarely have to declutter. It's
| often easier to not first get into a bad habit than try to get
| out of one.
|
| There have been occasions where I did throw away something that I
| needed later, but the enjoyment of having little clutter and less
| to clean far outweighs the rare incident of fleeting regret.
| criddell wrote:
| I'm the opposite. I live in the 'burbs and have quite a bit of
| space, but would like even more! I really like my stuff. My
| favorite way to spend vacation time is to putter around my
| house because all around are things that make me so happy.
|
| If I could wave a magic wand and get more space, I would double
| my garage space (or build a workshop out back). I'm just
| getting into woodworking and that can use a lot of space.
| harrall wrote:
| Well I'm not minimalist either. I have a full workshop with a
| table saw, chop saw, workbench, and many power tools. I build
| furniture in my garage and much of my place is my own custom
| furniture. But I made space for my entire workshop.
| Essentially I enjoy space but every bit of space is
| intentional and intentionally crafted. I like a space that is
| both highly functional for me but also beautiful.
|
| I find it too easy to collect things before you even know
| what to do with it and to keep things that you no longer
| need. Over time, this becomes clutter.
| hinkley wrote:
| I have a drawer where my out of season clothes go. Fall and
| spring are a little chaotic, but once I admit it's too cold for
| short sleeves or it's consistently warm enough for them, that
| settles back down. But it was a good excuse to get rid of
| exercise clothes that fit poorly. And I got rid of enough that
| I could replace a few pieces with brands that were more
| comfortable.
| zwieback wrote:
| What she says makes sense: "It is about returning people to a
| state in which parting with things feels natural."
|
| That's the whole problem, if you're a hoarder it doesn't feel
| natural. Maybe you can step through the process and declutter but
| unless you change your brain you'll just re-accumulate.
| hinkley wrote:
| I know someone whose mother "solves" clutter by giving things
| to family and friends, which is really outsourcing clutter
| because now your friends have the clutter problem and emotional
| blackmail to keep it.
|
| When I met her, she was busy trying to gift something. In that
| moment I thought of the scene in Labyrinth, after Sarah eats
| the peach and ends up in the midden heap with the old lady who
| is telling Sarah to focus on her belongings. She was a lot.
| yumraj wrote:
| Are there any good books one can recommend on this topic?
| jl6 wrote:
| > unnecessary items
|
| Here's the thing. I've got at least two family members that could
| probably be classified as hoarders. They keep a bunch of stuff
| that they really should get rid of. But at least part of this is,
| I believe, ingrained upon them by their relatively impoverished
| upbringing. They would hang onto items of marginal value because
| that marginal value means more when you have to scrape by.
|
| Decluttering is a luxury. Rich people can throw out their rarely-
| used junk because it's trivial for them to buy new stuff should
| the need arise. Poor people keep the "junk" because that little
| bit of potential residual value is a part of their livelihood.
|
| Most people should put their stack of National Geographics in the
| recycling bin, because it isn't worth their time to find the
| person who'll give them five bucks for it. For some people, that
| five bucks matters.
| crooked-v wrote:
| Having grown up not quite dirt poor when young, I have to fight
| that "this might be useful later, what if you waste ten bucks
| by throwing it out???" hoarding tendency myself. It'e one of
| those "actually, it's okay to spend money sometimes" things
| that it's hard to move on from.
| aidenn0 wrote:
| My wife grew up in an extremely wealthy home yet also fights
| this tendency. She has to leave the room if I'm going to
| throw out food that has gone bad, because seeing someone
| throw food in the trash makes her feel physically ill.
| ndileas wrote:
| My maternal grandmother and mom were/are hoarders. I don't
| fully agree with your "decluttering is a luxury" statement.
| There's certainly an element of that, because times were lean
| for them sometimes. I think the hoarding is really a proxy for
| control, not for direct utility - and sometimes the instinct
| can go wrong and there's no value at all, or negative value, to
| the continued accumulation. Everyone, rich or poor, needs space
| to walk around and space to prepare food or wash dishes.
| Obviously there's a spectrum of behavior when it comes to these
| things from "cluttered, but mostly functional" to "need a
| strategy, dust mask and boots to cross the room". I've seen way
| too much of the latter to be fully on board with your point.
|
| Here's a great blog about two sisters cleaning up their late
| father's mess I've found fascinating and helpful in dealing
| with my familys' situation: https://tetanusburger.blogspot.com/
| sequoia wrote:
| It's funny to me that both this woman and Kondo describe their
| methods as "The _Japanese_ art of tidying. " It's funny because
| if these methods were so characteristically or inherently
| Japanese, why would so many Japanese people themselves need so
| much help & training in the methods as to spawn a whole industry?
|
| It's like calling Golang "The _California_ programming language "
| or calling Newton's laws "The _English_ art of explaining
| inertia. " Is there really anything particularly Japanese about
| these women's methods or is it just Orientalist branding?
|
| (You do see this sometimes around Brooklyn, or you used to, when
| Brooklyn's cultural cache was especially high.)
| Barrin92 wrote:
| > Is there really anything particularly Japanese about these
| women's methods or is it just Orientalist branding?
|
| I don't think these two are mutually exclusive, something can
| be authentically Japanese _and_ be branded that way in
| particular to foreign audiences.
|
| Kondo's "spark joy" method doesn't seem that Japanese though,
| if anything it seems almost made for Western audiences which
| isn't suprising given that she's three decades younger than
| Yamashita but the latter seems to genuinely have Buddhist
| influences, as she says herself in the article. It's probably
| also the reason Kondo is more popular.
|
| But there really is a big emphasis on detachment, ephemerality
| and circularity in Japanese aesthetics, you can go back to
| writers like Tanizaki (In Praise of Shadows) and I think that
| comes through in the motivations that Yamashita gives for her
| method.
|
| edit: and by the way the observation about Newton isn't unfair
| at all. English is too narrow, but philosophically Newton's
| deterministic and mechanical laws of motion are the
| geographical and philosophical product of modern European
| thinking. They would not have made sense in the world of
| Aristotle, which is why it took so long!
| 0xdeadbeefbabe wrote:
| Japanese clutter is awesome too https://aeon.co/essays/the-
| life-changing-magic-of-japanese-c....
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Am I the only one to have a problem with the "decluttering"
| movement.
|
| It is not that I think that clutter is a good thing, but I think
| that decluttering focuses on the wrong side of the problem. That
| is, the real problem is not with what you are keeping, it is with
| what you are getting. Otherwise, it just encourages over-
| consumption.
|
| Ok, your decluttered your house, disposing of all your junk, but
| now what? If you continue buying junk, then clutter will come
| back, then you will dispose of it, again, just to buy it again
| later. If you are doing that, you are better off keeping your
| clutter, at least it will make you think twice before buying some
| crap.
|
| And by the way, I find it particularly ironic that Marie Kondo
| sells a whole lot of crap on her website, as if the message was
| "get rid of your stuff so you can put mine in its place".
|
| The ideas are not bad, but I'd rather make them about the future
| rather than about the past. Don't ask yourself "does it spark
| joy" at home, ask yourself "will it spark joy" when you are
| shopping. Find the right place for the stuff you intend to buy,
| not for what you already have.
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