[HN Gopher] Using eSIMs with devices that only have a physical S...
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Using eSIMs with devices that only have a physical SIM slot via a
9eSIM SIM car
Author : todsacerdoti
Score : 244 points
Date : 2025-01-20 11:33 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (neilzone.co.uk)
(TXT) w3m dump (neilzone.co.uk)
| yapyap wrote:
| I like the initiative and I'm not against experimenting, it's
| fun.
|
| But why would you ever want an eSIM in a SIM device, I'd assume
| it's more often the other way around
| harha wrote:
| One announce with eSIM is that you can't move them freely,
| despite being advertised as equivalent. Depending on the
| provider it can get quite complicated (physical visit in store,
| fees) to move to another device.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Could one make an all-software sim card emulator which would
| enable this?
|
| Or does the esim spec have some kind of DRM to require you to
| use physical hardware with an embedded yet secret-to-you key?
| notpushkin wrote:
| There is SoftSIM, but I think it's geared towards IOT
| applications: https://onomondo.com/product/softsim/
| gruez wrote:
| >Or does the esim spec have some kind of DRM to require you
| to use physical hardware with an embedded yet secret-to-you
| key?
|
| Yes. Basically there's an accreditation process by the
| GSMA, and if your esim doesn't have a certificate chain
| leading back to GSMA, you won't be able to get your esim
| provisioned.
|
| https://media.ccc.de/v/camp2023-57190-demystifying_esim_tec
| h...
| barbafant wrote:
| quote from TFA "Since I want to use the SIM with the integrated
| WWAN modem of a laptop running Linux, I was keen to see if I
| could get this all to work using Linux and Free software."
| abofh wrote:
| I can't speak to anyone else, but I have a phone about a year
| too old for e-sims to have been commonplace, but I still need
| to travel, and services like airalo (global sims to go) are
| basically e-sim only -- so my secondary sim slot is a
| reprogrammable eSIM.
| orisho wrote:
| You may find yourself in that situation if you have a device
| that only supports SIMs, and you can't use any of the cheap
| travel esim providers with it. For travel, you would replace
| your local SIM with the 9eSIM, and be able to switch providers
| depending on destination. The difference can be huge in some
| countries, where a local provider's travel plan can be 30 to 50
| USD, while a equivalent on an ESIM provider is just $4.
|
| I live in such a country and have parents with older phones who
| can't use esims, so the value is obvious to me. :)
| pjmlp wrote:
| I have not yet traveled to a place that doesn't have cheap
| prepaid SIM on the Airport, or some Internet cafes.
| herbst wrote:
| Cheap is very subjective. There is always a way cheaper
| Esim option, especially if you have high usage.
|
| Not the common Esim provider spamming all of Google. But
| you often find local Esim resellers for local networks.
|
| Writing this from my Caravan WiFi, with a small streaming
| computer, 2 mobiles and a laptop using about 250 GB a month
| :)
| notpushkin wrote:
| In my experience, getting an eSIM is usually cheaper than
| the airport SIM card plans, but often there are cheaper
| plans available when you get to the city. In any case,
| having both options is nice!
| gruez wrote:
| >getting an eSIM is usually cheaper than the airport SIM
| card plans, but often there are cheaper plans available
| when you get to the city
|
| I find that for light data users (ie. < 5GB), esims are
| always almost cheaper than local sims, except for maybe
| in developing countries.
| notpushkin wrote:
| I think it depends on how you define "developing
| countries"!
|
| I'm currently in Thailand and I got 6 GB for about $2
| total (50 baht for the SIM with 3 GB for 3 days, another
| 20 baht top up for another 3 GB / 3 days). I did use eSIM
| for about a month before that though (I just wanted a
| local number to order some stuff from Lazada).
|
| Another example (also from Southeast Asia, FWIW):
| Malaysian SIMs are also cheaper, though topping them up
| is painful so I'd personally stick with an eSIM there.
| gruez wrote:
| Those are all developing countries.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IMF_advanced_economies
| _an...
| nico wrote:
| Currently traveling, and the savings are real. Although in
| this case it's the opposite: travel eSIMs rates are about $80
| for data for 30 days, whereas a cheap local prepaid SIM card
| is $8-16 (but with no eSIM option)
| klausa wrote:
| Out of curiosity: where are you traveling with data that
| expensive?
| nico wrote:
| The service is called Holafly, it was advertised on the
| plane, and my travel mate bought it without hesitating
| (because of the convenience of an eSIM, even though they
| didn't get a local number)
| klausa wrote:
| I meant the physical destination, not the service :D
| gruez wrote:
| >it was advertised on the plane
|
| That's basically guaranteed to be overpriced. Anything
| prominently advertised means you're going to be paying
| for the advertising budget.
|
| Also, it's "unlimited data", which probably makes it more
| expensive than it needs to be due to adverse selection.
| For instance it charges $50 for 15 days in europe, but on
| esimdb[1] you can easily find esims for just over $1/gb.
| It might still be worth it if you're using absurd amounts
| of data, but citing it as an example of esims being very
| expensive doesn't really make sense.
|
| https://esimdb.com/region/europe
| instagib wrote:
| I found my google maps app for navigation and image
| translation via google lens/translator app ate up a ton
| of my data. I had to turn off off a setting or two to
| reduce the maps data.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I don't know about europe but 40 to 80usd for 15GB for 30
| days in Mexico is completely crazy when you can get a
| physical telcel sim card with 25GB and unlimited data for
| whatsapp and all major social medias, which means you can
| easily go for the smaller 10GB (15usd) or 7GB (10usd)
| choice if the most you will transfer is on social medias
| and whatsapp.
|
| https://esimdb.com/mexico
| mrg2k8 wrote:
| I've encountered this in Cape Verde and ended buying a
| local SIM off the street for a fraction of the price.
| doix wrote:
| In which countries are eSIMs cheaper? I have never
| encountered this in Africa or in Asia. I was just in Vietnam,
| a local SIM was probably 50% cheaper than anything I could
| find on esimdb.
|
| Currently I'm in Georgia, unlimited internet for a week is 9
| GEL, or around 3ish USD per week. The cheapest on esdimdb is
| 19 USD for unlimited internet for a week.
|
| What we usually do when we travel is buy the cheapest eSIM,
| usually on some introductory offer to get like 1GB for 1 USD
| (so we can order taxis, maps etc), then go to a local
| provider and get a local SIM.
|
| One place where an eSIM was a good choice was China. I don't
| quite understand how it works, but it seems if you use an
| eSIM in China you get around the great firewall without
| needing a VPN.
|
| I wish eSIMs were cheaper, so I wouldn't have to deal with
| the headache of doing that. When going to local providers,
| sometimes they offer an eSIM option, but there is usually no
| price difference.
| lxgr wrote:
| > I don't quite understand how it works, but it seems if
| you use an eSIM in China you get around the great firewall
| without needing a VPN.
|
| That's just the default for most mobile data services, eSIM
| or physical SIM. Your home network provides Internet
| connectivity. "Local breakout" (where you get an IP of the
| visited network) has never really taken off for various
| reasons, one being that people actually like being able to
| access everything they also can at home.
|
| I also strongly suspect that this is why iPhones in China
| don't have any eSIM capability.
| bloggie wrote:
| I don't know if eSIMs are more expensive or less than a
| local SIM, but they are much more convenient for me when I
| travel. I can have working internet as soon as I step off
| the plane, which is great for finding transportation and
| not having to deal with kiosks that won't speak any
| language I know and might be closed. I don't have to hand
| over my passport to get a SIM, and in China they get around
| the firewall. The cost of an eSIM vs the cost of travel is
| too small to notice but the convenience is always noticed.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I expected to use an eSIM when I went abroad for a month last
| year. It turned out the providers offering "travel eSIM" are
| 2 to 4 times more expensive compared to buying a prepaid
| physical sim at the counter valid for 30 days.
| dboreham wrote:
| Quick note that "the counter" may not exist or be hard/time
| consuming to track down and then there may be language
| barriers and also identity proof requirements that you
| can't meet. So service that's available and working as soon
| as your boots hit the ground do have some value.
| arghwhat wrote:
| Chinese iPhone has no eSIM support (they have dual SIM
| instead), IoT stuff like alarms tend to use SIM slots, LTE/5G
| routers tend to use SIM, etc.
|
| Until eSIM provisioning for embedded devices is sorted out and
| popularized there will be plenty of reasons to adapt to a
| regular SIM.
| fer wrote:
| Simply there are more eSIM providers than traditional SIM ones,
| so there's more competition and lower prices. That alone is
| enough.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Yep, it isn't as if there aren't cheap pre-paid throway SIM
| available as well.
| herbst wrote:
| I got a second hand mobile router with SIM support, but very
| good hardware for 50$. I ordered a Esim adapter SIM for $20 and
| just switch to the cheapest network wherever I am.
|
| Easily saved $300 to a comparable device with Esim support.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Well, one nice thing is that a device like this allows you to
| use the services that are trying to lock you with an eSIM in
| the same way that you use a normal consumer friendly SIM.
| dangus wrote:
| Let's say you land in a new country that your primary provider
| won't roam to for free or at all, there's no need to visit the
| airport shop that sells SIM cards with limited options and try
| to buy and set up something which is often in a different
| language.
|
| You can buy your eSIM service at the best possible price ahead
| of time online and have it ready to go when you land, and you
| don't have to upgrade your not-that-old phone to do so.
| akvadrako wrote:
| Because you can buy cheap short term data plans in most
| countries online. Getting a physical prepaid SIM is often a
| pain, especially in places like the US.
| PopAlongKid wrote:
| I wish I knew if this would have helped me on a recent trip out
| of the U.S. In preparation, I upgraded my older, low-end
| smartphone to one with a more recent version of Android, NFC (for
| tap-to-pay), a headphone jack, and support for two physical SIMs.
|
| So when I arrived at my destination, I was able to purchase a
| 30-day SIM for a local phone number and data, but my primary SIM
| was useless outside of the U.S. so no access to my primary phone
| number (I ended up using WhatsApp a lot). My carrier (Boost
| Mobile) advertised an add-on for "Global Roaming", but despite
| non-trivial time spent reading and talking to them on the phone,
| I got merely a vague impression that only an eSIM would have
| allowed me to continue to use my primary number out of the
| country. Would this solution have worked for me?
|
| Meanwhile, I still have the (now deactivated) second SIM in my
| phone, hope that is not a security risk of some kind.
| doix wrote:
| I really don't see the connection between an eSIM and your SIM
| not working abroad here.
|
| All an eSIM does is replace a physical one with a "digital"
| one. You'd still be using your carrier in these places. For
| your sim to work, your carrier would need to have agreements in
| place with providers in the country you're in. And then they'd
| charge you an extortionate amount of money to making any calls
| or use any data.
| gruez wrote:
| He's probably talking about how on iPhones[1] and some
| Androids[2], you can do something called "wifi calling using
| cellular data" or "backup calling", which basically enables
| you to roam for "free" on your one SIM by using wifi-calling
| over the data connection of the second SIM. It only triggers
| if the first SIM doesn't have any reception, but there's
| workarounds for that, but in any case it's not as simple as
| installing an eSIM and getting free roaming.
|
| [1] https://cdsassets.apple.com/live/7WUAS350/images/ios/ios-
| 18-...
|
| [2] https://lemmy.world/post/58708
| goda90 wrote:
| Another factor for international travel is whether you phone
| has the right bands to get signal. My carrier claims to have
| international roaming, but I look up what bands my model phone
| has and what the country I'm going to uses and I pretty much
| would not get signal anyway.
| lxgr wrote:
| Are you sure? There's a pretty good overlap these days in
| globally supported bands on at least a baseline level.
|
| You might not be able to use a provider's extended/rural or
| dense urban canyon filler cells, but I haven't yet been to a
| place where I didn't get any roaming connectivity at all.
|
| In some countries (the US included), providers restrict the
| ability of devices not capable of e.g. VoIP to connect on
| certain bands (as there is no circuit switched fallback
| available there, and there's an FCC mandate that calls, in
| particular 911 calls, have to work wherever data works), but
| that's usually not applied to inbound roaming guests.
| joecool1029 wrote:
| > Are you sure? There's a pretty good overlap these days in
| globally supported bands on at least a baseline level.
|
| Most Chinese imported phones have really poor band support
| in the US. Lucky to get band 2 and band 5 at best.
|
| > In some countries (the US included), providers restrict
| the ability of devices not capable of e.g. VoIP to connect
| on certain bands (as there is no circuit switched fallback
| available there, and there's an FCC mandate that calls, in
| particular 911 calls, have to work wherever data works),
| but that's usually not applied to inbound roaming guests.
|
| US all circuit switched data is basically gone except for a
| few rural carriers and maybe a few pockets of 2G left on
| T-Mobile (was shut down on my local towers in past few
| weeks). Unsure of the 911 IMS carrier profile support on
| models not intended for US market.
| someplaceguy wrote:
| Recently I tried to reinstall an eSIM on my Android phone while
| overseas but was told by my carrier that the eSIM can only be
| activated while connected to antennas located in the carrier's
| country, i.e. it can't be activated overseas, despite my plan
| supporting call roaming and both countries being in the EU.
|
| I don't know whether this is carrier-specific or the same for
| all carriers.
| arccy wrote:
| I think almost all carriers require this. I've seen mentions
| that the Google Fi eSIM requires US towers to activate, but
| can be moved / reinstalled later without them (didn't test it
| though).
| terinjokes wrote:
| Just an end user, so don't quote me on this, but I think
| that requirement was largely a legacy Sprint requirement.
|
| I've purchased newer Pixel devices from my local shop and
| activated Google Fi just fine overseas. (with the caveat
| that I might not have all of T-Mobile's bands if I'm back
| in the US).
| Doohickey-d wrote:
| This worked for me, French carrier "Free", and install new
| eSIM while in Spain.
|
| But now I have doubts, especially outside the EU: if it
| doesn't work, that would loose one of the advantages that I'd
| sort of expected eSIM to have: if your phone gets lost /
| stolen while abroad, you could just get a new eSIM from your
| carrier immediately, and set it up on your replacement phone.
|
| In my case, my bank uses mandatory SMS 2FA for setting up
| their app on a new phone, thus making it impossible to make
| purchases with my card without having the being able to set
| up the app.
|
| So I'd be back to the oldschool method of having a fried back
| at home set up the new eSIM, receive the 2FA code...
| notpushkin wrote:
| This is neat. I've only heard about ESTK [0] and sysmoEUICC by
| sysmocom [1].
|
| ESTK supports a couple neat features, like cloud provisioning of
| profiles [2] (which makes it possible to add eSIM profiles on
| iPhone, too, not just Android).
|
| [0]: https://estk.me/
|
| [1]: https://shop.sysmocom.de/sysmoEUICC1-eUICC-for-consumer-
| eSIM...
|
| [2]: https://docs.estk.me/manual/download/cloud-
| enhance/index.htm...
| singpolyma3 wrote:
| Note cloud provisioning does require an active data esim
| profile on the card already
| lxgr wrote:
| Interesting, do you know why that is the case? Does it use
| BIP as a communication channel, and the iPhone doesn't route
| that over Wi-Fi?
| singpolyma3 wrote:
| correct
| ewuhic wrote:
| I always wondered - can you have no roaming if you use eSIM with
| wifi calling and an exit node in country where eSIM is issued?
| So, basically:
|
| - you bought eSIM in Germany
|
| - you are currently in US
|
| - you use tailscale with exit node at your apartment in Germany
|
| - voila, no roaming when you call German mobile lines
|
| Right?
|
| [EDIT FOR ADDITIONAL QUESTION]
|
| If I have troubles receiving SMSs from Germany to German number
| while in US, would wifi calling icrease the chances of receiving
| the said SMSs?
| Ghoelian wrote:
| Are there even roaming costs at all when calling over wifi?
| Would make sense to me if there weren't, since you're not using
| the mobile infrastructure you would be paying for.
|
| Then again I could also easily see telcos charging roaming
| anyway, just because they can.
| simtel20 wrote:
| There's also a technical hurdle of the telco can't know where
| you're coming from over the Internet. The terminate your end
| of the vowifi call and from there they only charge for the
| connection as though it originated in their network, which is
| all they know for sure (that is their SIM and your account
| that's authenticated from somewhere in the world)
| lxgr wrote:
| Well, I know at least one provider that looks at your IP's
| country registration and will block you if they believe
| it's not domestic: Vodafone Germany. I wouldn't wish their
| service upon my worst enemies.
| simtel20 wrote:
| Sounds terrible. So yeah, I guess they can make an
| educated guess, and initiate a demoralizing cat and mouse
| game with their customers.
| miki123211 wrote:
| Calls can freely be handed over between VoLTE and VoWiFi,
| depending on signal quality, and that often happens without
| the user's knowledge or explicit consent.
|
| This means that "no roaming costs over WiFi" is a very dicy
| proposition, as a carrier either needs to restrict handovers
| (and I don't even know if that's allowed by the spec, not to
| mention the implications of dropping calls when going out of
| WiFi Range), cover the costs themselves, or move them onto
| the unsuspecting user if a handover happens.
| winterswift wrote:
| In my experience, wi-fi calling works as if on the home
| network, regardless of IP location/endpoint. So this would work
| similarly with an eSIM.
| netsharc wrote:
| I have a dual-SIM Pixel 7, the eSIM "slot" has a data-only
| subscription, the other slot has a pay-as-you-go SIM that I
| can make phone calls with (I make so few phone calls to
| actual lines, that having credit that I can top-up every few
| months is much more cheaper than paying monthly for free
| minutes). The PAYG SIM offers WiFi calling, and the phone
| appears to even offer "WiFi"-calling over the data
| connection, for a much better audio quality.
| lxgr wrote:
| At least Vodafone Germany intentionally blocks (or used to
| block) foreign IPs for their gateway. I'll always trust them
| to needlessly ruin perfectly fine technologies.
|
| Fortunately, as far as I remember at least iPhones route
| VoWiFi traffic over a VPN, if any is connected, so that's one
| way to still use it abroad.
| miki123211 wrote:
| This is actually less unreasonable than it seems at first.
|
| The Vo WiFi spec only defines handover procedures for
| networks that implement VoLTE, but VoLTE roaming was
| historically almost nonexistent, although the situation is
| improving somewhat.
|
| This means that if you go out of range of your WiFi router,
| your cell phone has no idea how to request a handover from
| the network, and the call drops.
| daveoc64 wrote:
| As noted by other commenters, some carriers (I think all of
| the UK carriers) use IP-based geoblocking to ensure that Wi-
| Fi Calling only works when using an IP address registered in
| the UK.
| gruez wrote:
| Yes, see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42768735
| aimazon wrote:
| > If I have troubles receiving SMSs from Germany to German
| number while in US, would wifi calling icrease the chances of
| receiving the said SMSs?
|
| I'm not up to date on the state of messaging infrastructure but
| it used to be the case that some providers would offer non-
| standard methods for sending messages over their network to
| intermediary providers. Rather than sending an SMS to a number,
| a business would ask the intermediary to send a message and the
| intermediary would use the non-standard method provided by the
| network provider. The non-standard methods work fine if you're
| connected to the network directly but if you're overseas that
| will not be the case and so you can't receive these non-
| standard messages. Don't quote me on any of that, though.
| lxgr wrote:
| The non-standard method is to get the SMS to a delivering
| SMSC (which is the same network component that's used for
| mobile originated SMS delivery, which is standardized).
|
| Once it's enqueued in an SMSC, there is no more distinction
| between how it got there, as far as I understand (at least
| downstream from there; delivery reports to the sender might
| again be proprietary for non-mobile senders).
|
| > The non-standard methods work fine if you're connected to
| the network directly but if you're overseas that will not be
| the case and so you can't receive these non-standard
| messages.
|
| This is actually not particular to the way in which SMS have
| been enqueued, but rather to how they're delivered: The
| sending SMSC has to "dial" pretty deep into both the
| recipient's home and visited network in the original
| implementation. This means that they need a commercial
| agreement and technical integration with both of them.
|
| Usually, problems/inconsistencies occur when they do know how
| to deliver to the recipient number's home network (because if
| they can't, they'd probably have rejected the message at SMSC
| submission time), but are then redirected to a given visited
| network with which they don't have interconnectivity.
|
| This problem (and some others, including serious privacy
| concerns) is solved by a newer technology called "SMS home
| routing". In that model, there's something like a proxy in
| the recipient's home network that essentially poses as the
| receiving phone to the sending SMSC, and then uses the home
| network's resources to do actual delivery. This usually leads
| to more consistent experiences, and allows things like a
| "received message log". (Without a home router, the
| recipient's home network never sees the message content when
| the recipient is roaming!)
| Gormo wrote:
| Alternatively, use a global eSIM purely for data access, then
| use your phone as a SIP client (or use something like Google
| Voice) for PSTN access, eschewing the mobile network entirely.
| lxgr wrote:
| Many providers actually let you use Wi-Fi calling without any
| VPN, i.e. they don't arbitrarily restrict the set of allowed
| IPs that can connect to their Internet gateway.
|
| > If I have troubles receiving SMSs from Germany to German
| number while in US, would wifi calling icrease the chances of
| receiving the said SMSs?
|
| Probably not, unless your provider supports inbound and
| outbound SMS via ISM. If you have an iPhone, you can check
| whether yours does in Settings -> About -> Tap the name of your
| carrier. (If it lists "Voice and SMS", you might be good; if
| it's only "voice" or nothing at all, SMS will go over the
| visited network.)
| phh wrote:
| I'm implementing a fully libre open-source vowifi/volte client
| for Android that runs in JVM sandbox, rather than untrustable
| modem. During my development I went through a protocol detail
| that I was too lazy to implement: you're supposed to announce
| which is the last 4g cell you saw even when doing Vowifi. I
| just hardcoded a value and forgot about it.
|
| And then, I get a user who tells me that their carrier is
| saying they are roaming, even though they don't. I'm a tad
| clueless at first, because they are the network, they ought to
| know (this even happen over VoLTE). I send them an updated
| implementation that reports the correct cell. And then they
| receive a "welcome back" SMS.
|
| Anyway, it's possible that your carrier can do abroad vowifi,
| you just need your vowifi client to lie as to where it is.
| sunaookami wrote:
| Haha what a coincidence, I bought a 9eSIM adapter a few weeks
| ago! There is a new eSIM-only card in Germany where you get 3 GB
| of data plus unlimited SMS and calls per month for free. To order
| it I had to use Frida and the Android emulator to fool the app
| into thinking the device had an eSIM. After that you have to do
| some JavaScript shenanigans on the website to get the QR code.
| But after that, everything works flawlessly with the eSIM
| adapter. The card is called "GMX FreePhone".
| Lanolderen wrote:
| Thanks for mentioning the provider.
| fullspectrumdev wrote:
| How much registration is required? I can see this being useful
| for some things :)
| dkjaudyeqooe wrote:
| It requires that you give them your bank account details.
|
| The stated reason is because you can call premium services
| and run up a charges even with a free service.
| sunaookami wrote:
| Yeah this, and you need to give them your full address
| because you have to enter a code that is sent via
| (physical) mail. Also it has the "Datenautomatik" enabled
| by default where new data packages are bought automatically
| when the limit is reached but you can turn this off (it's
| on by default).
| briodf wrote:
| 3GB of Data + Unlimited SMS and Calls for free sounds very
| nice? Can you share the name of the provider so that we can add
| it to our eSIM comparison for Germany
| https://www.monito.com/en/esim-plans-compared
| Alive-in-2025 wrote:
| What's the reason for these lower prices? Data only 5gb/month
| for $5 or $6 seems to be the summary of the link, amazing! I
| think the answer is there is lots of competition and they've
| driven the price down to this point. That's an incredible
| price.
|
| Of course this would be immensely useful. For example, can I
| put this in my vehicle with built in maps (or just have a
| hotspot in my vehicle to use with a tablet). As a price
| comparison, in the us there are some EVs that charge
| $100/year for basically this, most charge a lot more. That's
| $8.33/month, so only a bit more than $6 or 7. But in the us
| it's hard or impossible get anything that low for just raw
| service, I can't find anything like that.
| larusso wrote:
| What's your use case for the adapter. To use the free service
| on a non eSIM capable phone? Or for some other stuff? Thanks
| for the info about the provider. Didn't hear about the offering
| yet.
| oniony wrote:
| Was "the SIM's packaging" not just an original credit-card sized
| SIM? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card#Full-size_SIM, with
| punch-outs for newer formats?
| arccy wrote:
| i think it meant the rims for the punch outs were the best for
| keeping a nano sim in the reader stable (which presumably took
| one of the larger formats).
| TheJoeMan wrote:
| Is there any effort towards enabling increased privacy against
| tracking by "rotating" eSIMs amongst a group of individuals? The
| article mentions capacity for 50 profiles, what would be the
| legal and/or implementation effects of such a Local-Profile-
| Agent?
| gruez wrote:
| You can't transfer eSIMs between devices. iPhones support
| "transfers" but in reality it involves the carrier reissuing
| it. You'd have to transfer the physical device, which is going
| to be a pain.
| miohtama wrote:
| AFAIK Only the eSIM issuer can do this. I did it once, it
| involved the eSIM issuer support emailing me a new QR code.
| maxloh wrote:
| What prevents you from doing that? Is an activated eSIM
| linked to the device's MAC address, making it impossible to
| use with a different device?
|
| If that is the case, what would happen if we transferred the
| MAC address along with the eSIM? (assuming you have a
| jailbroken/rooted phone)
| gruez wrote:
| >Is an activated eSIM linked to the device's MAC address,
| making it impossible to use with a different device?
|
| After an esim is "activated" it's bound to the esim chip.
| By design, you can't copy it onto another esim chip or
| device. If you want to transfer devices, you need to ask
| your carrier to issue you another esim.
| Gormo wrote:
| What if you use a solution like the one described in the
| article, and physically swap the SIM card to another
| device?
| lxgr wrote:
| That should work, as "physical eSIMs" are usually not
| bound to the device they're in in any way. Your provider
| might restrict the set of allowable IMEIs conencting per
| SIM (profile), though.
| lxgr wrote:
| That's not quite true: Some eSIM profiles can be reinstalled,
| sometimes only on the same device, sometimes only on a
| limited number of devices or a limited number of times, but
| sometimes they're really as versatile as the physical SIMs
| they're replacing.
|
| It's ultimately up to the provider which model they choose,
| but I really like the ones that allow both reuse of an
| existing profile and make it easy and free to provision a new
| one if required (e.g. due to a lost or broken device).
| TechDebtDevin wrote:
| This seems like it might be useful for web scraping. Ive been
| having a munch easier time scraping/ not having to buy proxies
| since moving to strictly 5G modems. Something like this might
| help get past the two sim limit on both devices.
| mateuszbuda wrote:
| You can use a USB hub (example with 20 ports:
| https://www.sipolar.com/product/a-805p-20-ports-usb-2-0-hub/)
| and attach multiple USB dongles to it. This blog post describes
| a setup for web scraping: https://scrapingfish.com/blog/byo-
| mobile-proxy-for-web-scrap...
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Hmm that's kinda nice. I don't like eSIMs because the provider
| often imposes arbitrary constraints. Either needing their data-
| stealing app, only allowing so many changes per month, only
| allowing 'certified' handsets, having 2FA bullshit etc.
|
| I just want to swap my number into different phones like I can
| with a physical card, without anyone else's involvement or
| approval.
|
| If I could just grab an esim and download it onto a physical card
| that would be great.
| herbst wrote:
| I have a 5ber.esim that appears to be exactly that.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Thanks! I'll have a look at that.
|
| Edit: Looks great but it's US only. But I think the one in
| the article spoke about a similar solution.
| herbst wrote:
| I am in Europe myself
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Oh did you order it somewhere? I only saw US options on
| their site.
| gruez wrote:
| >Either needing their data-stealing app
|
| that's only needed on non-rooted Android, due to security
| restrictions imposed by android. OP even mentions using an open
| source tool (lpac) with his esim adapter.
| lxgr wrote:
| What country is this, if you mind sharing? I've never
| encountered any of these problems. I've received almost all my
| eSIMs as a QR code, and the ones that did offer app-based
| installation (which is convenient if it works, but ultimately
| not more than that) have a QR code for fallback.
|
| > only allowing so many changes per month
|
| That I have actually encountered. I've seen one (fortunately
| only when traveling) that actually charges a "SIM fee" for each
| new eSIM profile installed, and they don't allow reinstalls of
| my initial one...
|
| Charging for a new eSIM is dubious even if a profile is
| reinstallable, but it's less of an issue for me, as I'd only
| have to do that if I lose a phone, or it fails to a point where
| I can no longer remove the installed eSIMs so that I can
| redownload them on another one.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| This was in Holland, one of the MVNOs. They had a crappy app
| and it would generate a different QR code every time (so they
| were not reusable).
|
| And a lot of operators have restrictions on phones. Imported
| phones are often blocked (and also not given access to
| VoLTE).
|
| For me it is a big deal if it charges "sim fees". I do swap
| my sims very regularly. For testing, or to put one in my
| tablet when I travel. I just want to be fully free to do as I
| please.
|
| But luckily I only use prepay these days and none of the
| carriers here in Europe that do prepay offer eSIM anyway.
| akvadrako wrote:
| Most eSIMs are not reusable; that's just standard, not a
| weird restriction.
| lxgr wrote:
| I've used many that are reusable, so I'll continue
| considering it a common but weird restriction.
| ddghhhhdaf wrote:
| Which operators? From your other comments I would think
| Vodafone (CallYa?) Germany - any others?
|
| (I haven't seen any other that ships reusable QR codes
| yet.)
| sureIy wrote:
| Happens with Thai eSIM as well.
|
| They have great roaming deals so I like having its eSIM
| always installed, but if I change iPhone I have to visit a
| store Thailand. Fantastic. I ended up switching it for a
| physical SIM card.
| smoovb wrote:
| If the eSIM is registered, you can also reissue a Thai eSIM
| online.
| realityking wrote:
| > Charging for a new eSIM is dubious
|
| The prices charged are often too high but depending on the
| setup the provider is using they might actually pay a vendor
| a fee every time an eSIM profile is generated.
| bongodongobob wrote:
| I've never heard of any of these things (~2k mobile devices at
| work). I've had a hand in writing some policies for our company
| for our mobile devices and with Verizon, ATT, and T-Mobile, 0
| issues with esims.
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| Transitioning to eSim-only could enslave us even further, as if
| Windows 11 secure boot shenanigans were not enough. Please raise
| this with your favorite digital freedom advocate. Let's be
| proactive on this one.
| sofixa wrote:
| > Transitioning to eSim-only could enslave us even further, as
| if Windows 11 secure boot shenanigans were not enough
|
| How are eSIMs "enslaving" people? Or for that matter, Windows
| 11 _secure boot_? There 's plenty to complain about in Windows
| 11 from a privacy perspective, but _secure boot_ is your
| problem?
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| Even media created with MS's own USB imager didn't work with
| my DIY build. May be related to Asus' UEFI but there's no
| proper diagnostic facility to know. I said screw it, and used
| Rufus to bypass any MS nonsense at the same time.
|
| And how? The same way SIM locks did. EU made them illegal not
| without reason.
| sofixa wrote:
| > And how? The same way SIM locks did. EU made them illegal
| not without reason.
|
| SIM locks were for operators to lock phones they sell you
| only to their network. You can install any eSIM, including
| from random MVNOs all around the world.
| lxgr wrote:
| Yeah, I really hate not having to physically juggle small
| smartcards whenever I want to use another network/provider (my
| phone has several eSIM profiles installed right now), being
| able to choose from dozens of providers competing on price and
| functionality, and not having to stand in line at the SIM store
| first thing after a long-haul flight too.
|
| eSIMs _could_ have been an anti-consumer nightmare, but
| fortunately they were really done exactly right. I really
| sometimes find it hard to believe how lucky we got on that one;
| they could have easily been a carrier lock-in mechanism like
| ESN /MEID based provisioning was.
|
| > Let's be proactive on this one.
|
| Even if you had a point, you're years too late. iPhones are
| sold without a SIM slot in some countries already (and I love
| it).
| sureIy wrote:
| > eSIMs _could_ have been an anti-consumer nightmare
|
| Really? Because I can swap a SIM card between phones in 30
| seconds whereas swapping eSIM lies between "hoping it works"
| and "not possible", passing by "you'll need a document" or
| "visit the store, if it's anywhere in your city/country"
| lxgr wrote:
| I can swap my eSIM between phones faster than I can remove
| my phone case.
| SXX wrote:
| You can't just take "important" esim out of your phone when
| travelling. If you lose your device or if it's stolen
| recovering eSIM from many countries is PITA.
| lxgr wrote:
| I can delete mine and then reinstall it on any device from
| the QR code if required. Not all providers allow that,
| unfortunately, but I wouldn't use one that doesn't allow
| instantly receiving a new QR code in some way.
| singpolyma3 wrote:
| If you use the JMP eSIM Adapter you can use a fully open source
| app, or even your own build of the app or whatever you like.
| craftkiller wrote:
| Thank you! I came to the comments to find the most open version
| of this. Unfortunately, the JMP eSIM's order form is broken so
| I cannot purchase their device (it never asks for city/state
| and then the order form errors out with "City or state/province
| not specified")
| singpolyma3 wrote:
| It seems that bringing up the city/state box after you enter
| zip code is being slow right now. if you wait a bit do they
| show up for you after entering zip code?
| craftkiller wrote:
| You're right! It took 7 minutes according to chrome dev
| tools but the state and city did eventually show up. Then
| my credit card's fraud protection declined the order so I
| had to go back and watch the spinner spin for another 5.2
| minutes but I eventually was able to purchase one.
| singpolyma3 wrote:
| sorry for the trouble. glad you got it to work.
| sunaookami wrote:
| You can use OpenEUICC with 9esim. They just rebrand it and
| publish it as their own thing.
| https://gitea.angry.im/PeterCxy/OpenEUICC
| hintymad wrote:
| I wonder if there's a reversed solution: using physical SIM card
| on devices that have only eSIMs. The use case: recent fewer
| versions of iPhone support only eSIMs, yet we will need a
| physical sim when traveling in China (yes yes, one could use
| roaming. It's just that with a China phone number, one can do
| more).
| lxgr wrote:
| It apparently can be done:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=twFC0A_m0KI
|
| Supposedly the people doing this at scale (for grey imports?)
| even de-solder the eSIM module and resell it, but I have my
| doubts about that part of the story.
| 05 wrote:
| Sure you can do it if there's a module to desolder, but many
| phones will just use TrustZone/Secure Enclave and you're not
| desoldering that...
| lxgr wrote:
| Are there any TrustZone based eSIM implementations yet?
| I've heard about plans for a couple of times but haven't
| been following that closely.
|
| I'm not sure if iPhones still have a physical module; it
| would make a lot of sense for Apple to combine the eSIM
| implementation with the payments secure element (I think
| they hold some patents to that extent), but I'm not sure if
| they already do that.
| rendaw wrote:
| Why do you need a physical sim in China? Are there just no esim
| providers? Or is it something deeper?
| jtokoph wrote:
| Apparently there aren't any eSIMs in China that include a
| phone number. I'm not sure why.
|
| I think this is why Apple releases the latest iPhones with
| physical SIM trays in China while the latest iPhones in North
| America are eSIM only
| gruez wrote:
| >while the latest iPhones in North America are eSIM only
|
| It's US that's esim only. Canada and Mexico still has
| physical sim + esim option if you're willing to drive
| across the border.
|
| https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/
|
| https://www.apple.com/ca/iphone/compare/
|
| https://www.apple.com/mx/iphone/compare/
| __m wrote:
| I only know eSIM providers for data
| gruez wrote:
| Most "travel esims" are data-only, but there are definitely
| domestic carriers/MVNOs that provide voice + text, and
| provide esims.
| emnudge wrote:
| It's to connect phone numbers to identities. Getting a
| physical sim in China involves going in person to a store
| where they keep your passport and a mugshot (you hold a paper
| with your number on it) in a database.
|
| There's no free WiFi without requiring a phone number. It
| allows the government to connect internet users to real
| identities.
| everdrive wrote:
| Does anyone have any resources which explain why eSIMs tunnel
| your network traffic to the provider? My mental model for old
| fashioned physical SIMs is that they would roam on the network
| you're visiting. ie, a Chinese physical SIM on a US network would
| show up from the US network, and would otherwise be normal except
| that the phone and network traffic would be very expensive. My
| understanding of eSIMs is that they act more like a VPN; your
| network (and phone?) traffic is tunneled back to the home
| network.
| lxgr wrote:
| > My mental model for old fashioned physical SIMs is that they
| would roam on the network you're visiting.
|
| No, that's never really been the case. It's technically
| possible (and called "local breakout"), but for various reasons
| I also don't fully understand, it's usually not done that way.
|
| One is legal liability for user actions; another is
| accessibility of services at home, such as banking apps, that
| are probably more comfortable with a familiar IP.
| SSLy wrote:
| That's not ordered by the SIM but by the packet-core network
| policies set by both parties.
| daveoc64 wrote:
| It's not really anything to do with eSIM. If you used a
| physical SIM from the same carrier with the same settings,
| you'd have the same experience.
|
| When connecting via a cellular data network, all data will be
| routed via your carrier's Access Point Name
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_Point_Name).
|
| Most carriers only have servers in their home region capable of
| handling the traffic. It is possible to have regional servers
| for this, but most carriers don't bother with the expense.
| Roaming data is usually expensive or restricted in usage - so
| there's traditionally been very little demand for higher speed
| connectivity.
|
| Travel eSIMs are usually just a regular SIM with a very limited
| plan from a carrier that has favourable roaming deals.
| everdrive wrote:
| Thanks for this explanation -- I guess I really had things
| wrong.
| jenny91 wrote:
| I think this is a peculiarity of the short-term travel eSIM
| providers (like Airalo). If I recall correctly, when I went to
| Bermuda, the Airalo eSIM would route the traffic through Isle
| of Man. They have some of the most odd agreements with random
| telecoms to get coverage and cheap rates.
|
| Partly I think it's skirting around local regulations (e.g. if
| a country required SIMs to be registered with the owner's
| information, but you provision the SIM from a nearby country's
| telco and route traffic through there maybe you can get around
| it).
|
| But as far as I understand this has nothing to do with eSIMs
| and a lot to do with Airalo trying to cover every corner of the
| world for cheap.
| smoovb wrote:
| Routing data back to the home network is how it can get counted
| and charged for.
|
| The host roaming network is just selling in bulk, but does not
| own the customer.
| daft_pink wrote:
| Hoping for the opposite option. Using physical sims for devices
| that only support esim?
| dustypotato wrote:
| Curious on what you think the advantage there is ? If you lose
| your phone , you don't lose your number if it's an eSIM
| priyanmuthu wrote:
| I would love to use the GoogleFi data only SIM on my iPad.
| But the Fi doesn't provide data only eSIM, and my iPad cannot
| have physical SIM slots.
| Fischgericht wrote:
| In case the original author reads this:
|
| Depending on what 4G/LTE modem/chip your laptop it is using (it
| must be based on a Qualcomm SoC which 99% are), there are and I
| can share documents on how you can do the provisioning directly
| on the Laptop the SIM card is in.
|
| The feature is present in the stock Qualcomm firmware bundle, but
| vendors like Quectel, Sierra etc may decide if they include the
| feature or not.
|
| I know this because it is on our dev team To-Do List to implement
| that for a Linux daemon :)
| porphyra wrote:
| I'm interested in solving the opposite problem: using physical
| SIMs with devices that only have eSIM. This is extremely
| important when going to mainland China as physical SIMs are
| required there.
| Elucalidavah wrote:
| Using an eSIM data on a physical sim is relatively
| straightforward; getting the keys from a physical SIM to use as
| an eSIM is relatively non-trivial, as "the card is designed to
| never divulge this key to the outside world".
| pxh21 wrote:
| Is this a knockoff of https://esim.me/ ?
| smoovb wrote:
| Yes. But esim.me high prices, clunky kyc and other issues left
| plenty of room for competitors.
| mfkp wrote:
| These have been around for a while.
|
| Alternatives:
|
| https://esim.5ber.com/
|
| https://esim.me/
|
| https://jmp.chat/esim-adapter
| stavros wrote:
| Which one is the best of these? Do they work in every country?
| I can't tell if the do some internet-connected magic or if they
| just program the SIM so that it appears like a bog-standard SIM
| to the phone.
| mfkp wrote:
| I've personally never tried since my phone supports e-sim but
| people on the internet report good findings with the 5ber
| card (note that you need the "Ultra" card for iPhone, the
| other ones are android only).
| stavros wrote:
| Thank you!
| mrshadowgoose wrote:
| Just an anecdotal single data point:
|
| I've tried the esim.me and the jmp offerings in the same set of
| phones.
|
| esim.me was generally quite glitchy and ultimately just stopped
| working. The requirement of having an esim.me account also just
| rubbed me the wrong way.
|
| jmp has been a seamless experience so far.
| josephcsible wrote:
| Previously, https://www.androidauthority.com/esim-adapter-
| android-phone-... said "While there are other eSIM adapters, the
| JMP adapter is the only one that doesn't use a proprietary,
| closed source app." Is that still true, or is this one now a
| second FOSS option?
| singpolyma3 wrote:
| I have not been able to find the source for the 9esim app, but
| it is derived from the code for the JMP app so they are pretty
| similar I think.
| pishpash wrote:
| Need the other way around, an eSIM emulator for a physical SIM
| card.
| SXX wrote:
| Is there no chinese knock-off SIM yet that let you change IDs and
| efficiently backup eSIM keys? That one would be actually a cool
| product.
| mbesto wrote:
| Tangentially related - I recently got the holy grail of eSIM
| travel router setup:
|
| - GLiNet Mudi v2: https://store.gl-
| inet.com/products/mudi-v2-portable-4g-lte-r...
|
| - EIOT Physical eSim https://store.gl-inet.com/products/esim-
| experience-seamless-...
|
| - 20GB Worldwide Airalo for 365 days ($69):
| https://www.airalo.com/global-esim/discover-365days-20gb
|
| Buy the airalo esim on my iphone. Download the QR code. Upload it
| to the mudi router. Activate it there. Voila! I then wireguard
| back to my home internet in case I need a US on the router. Can
| also use tailscale, but if my gf wants US internet its helpful.
|
| https://docs.gl-inet.com/router/en/4/tutorials/how_to_set_up...
| brotchie wrote:
| Nice, thanks for the reccomendations, the Mudi V2 looks great.
|
| Any limitations / bumps in the road, or it "just works"?
| mbesto wrote:
| Yes! I had to flash it with beta firmware since the eSim
| Manager disappears using Airalo.
|
| https://dl.gl-inet.com/release/router/testing/e750/4.3.21
| Fixed the problem that esim manage page is lost after
| installing some esim profiles.
| xeroaura wrote:
| Have you checked out Eskimo esim?
|
| They have coupons every so often on holidays for their
| worldwide esims. I believe they have one going for Chinese New
| Years that makes 30GB for $80. The data also has a 2 year
| expiration that rolls over on any global data purchase.
|
| Downside is their esims (mostly? all?) terminate in Singapore,
| so higher latency outside of the Asia region.
| mjrpes wrote:
| So would you not even need a plan for your phone and could do
| all voice/text/data through this device? Just keep it it with
| you at all times and running 24/7?
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