[HN Gopher] TCL's bet on screens that look like paper
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TCL's bet on screens that look like paper
Author : rpgbr
Score : 78 points
Date : 2025-01-15 12:50 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (notes.ghed.in)
(TXT) w3m dump (notes.ghed.in)
| jickes wrote:
| I honestly would love one of those "paperlike" tablets for
| reading and browsing the web. I have always liked kindles as well
| but I just prefer physically owning/reading books. Really cool
| tech though.
| rpgbr wrote:
| Not to mention that tablets are way more versatile than Kindle-
| like e-readers. I'm slowly replacing an aging iPad for printed
| articles (easier on my eyes), but I'd be tempted to get the
| newer TCL's NXTPAPER tablet once it arrives where I live.
| criddell wrote:
| The extra versatility is a con in my opinion. I want a
| dedicated e-reader that does one thing and does it well.
| Every design decision should be made with the goal of
| improving the reading experience.
|
| The (discontinued) Kindle Oasis is close to perfect IMHO.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Before Steve Jobs shut down the Advanced Technology Group (ATG)
| at Apple (in the late 1990's?), some coworkers reported having
| had a mini-tour of ATG and were blown away by a display they saw
| that "looked like paper!". If my memory is correct it was a 200
| DPI LCD panel. No doubt that kind of DPI back in the 90's looked
| like paper. ;-)
|
| I would love to see in person what over two decades has produced.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| High DPI CRTs existed back then. That is a more likely
| explanation.
| msephton wrote:
| "High" being relative and constantly changing, of course. The
| SGI 1600SW from 1998 was 1600x1024 at 17.3 inches, so 110dpi.
| A beautiful thing, but not really like paper IMHO.
| https://bytecellar.com/2008/02/13/the_sgi_1600sw/ &&
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SGI_1600SW
| hinkley wrote:
| I think Apple and other people maintained that 150 DPI is
| around where you start perceiving a monitor to be similar
| to a printed page.
| saltcured wrote:
| Considering the IBM "Big Bertha" LCD was an obtainable
| product in 2001, it doesn't seem too far-fetched that high
| resolution LCDs existed in some R&D labs years earlier.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_T220/T221_LCD_monitors
|
| It's not quite a 4K monitor, but I'll tell you it was pretty
| amazing to those of us who saw it demonstrated back then.
| This was a qualitatively different thing than we were
| familiar with. And, as I recall, it took 2 or 4 DVI inputs to
| drive it from typical graphics cards of the era. A single
| display output could not drive these kinds of pixel counts.
| hinkley wrote:
| They started that project as Roentgen as I recall, and
| while they did exist there were eye-watering of expensive.
|
| Around the time Apple started delivering HiDPI displays
| there was still a bit of scrambling by everyone to get
| software to play nice on OSX and Windows. Always fun when a
| game doesn't realize you're on a 270 DPI screen and makes
| the main menu so small you can barely read it to change the
| settings.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| IBM had a CRT version of this before then. It worked the
| same by splitting the display into four quadrants. A
| Windows desktop only showed on one quadrant and you needed
| special software to use the whole display. The one we had
| at work was monochrome grayscale so it lacked the issues of
| dealing with a fine shadow mask.
|
| LCD panels in that era were still being hand buffed and the
| defect rate would be high when attempting higher
| resolutions.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| I don't remember exactly when you joined up, or what the
| information flow would have looked like to the graphics group,
| but the OS team was certainly aware in the mid 90's that high
| DPI displays were on the horizon.
|
| I think it actually took much longer for them to become
| mainstream than Apple was expecting back then. Pre-NeXT
| takeover, this was one of the big impetuses behind moving to
| QuickDraw GX.
| comonoid wrote:
| That's TCL, not Tcl.
| kencausey wrote:
| It's an auto-formatting thing that HN does to submitted titles.
| If you catch it soon enough you can edit the title and it will
| be allowed as you specify, at least that was true the last time
| I tried.
| wslh wrote:
| Yes, that continues to work: (1) submit your post, (2) it's
| modified by HN based on rules such as multiple uppercases on
| a word, (3) edit the post title.
| nilamo wrote:
| Thanks, I was curious what a programming language had to do
| with anything.
| hinkley wrote:
| It's become self aware! Everybody run!
| adolph wrote:
| I thought both would be all caps but it seems that the language
| uses an initialism rather than an acronym. All my life I've
| been rarely typing out all caps Tcl like I'm one of the folk
| who use all caps MAC for the line of Apple computers.
|
| _TCL Technology Group Corp. (originally an abbreviation for
| Telephone Communication Limited) is a Chinese partially state-
| owned electronics company headquartered in Huizhou, Guangdong
| province._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCL_Technology
|
| _Tcl (pronounced "tickle" or as an initialism[8]; originally
| Tool Command Language) is a high-level, general-purpose,
| interpreted, dynamic programming language._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tcl
| hedora wrote:
| They claim they have a phone with a 7 day on, 26 day standby
| battery, and are charging $199 for it.
|
| Something's fishy.
| yapyap wrote:
| it's probably a very basic phone
| loloquwowndueo wrote:
| It only needs to be able to make/receive calls to be called a
| phone, right? Why would it be more expensive?
| rcthompson wrote:
| It has an alternate low-power mode that only provides a few
| basic functions (presumably phone, text, maybe a basic web
| browser?). When running in "regular" Android mode it won't
| reach those numbers (although I believe it still claims to do
| better than most phones in that mode).
| Etheryte wrote:
| I mean, a classic old Nokia easily ticks all those boxes,
| what's fishy about it?
| 3eb7988a1663 wrote:
| You can get a Garmin inReach emergency "phone" that gives calls
| + text over satellite and has a 25 day battery life.
| brookst wrote:
| Article says 550 nits "doesn't compare" to traditional screens,
| but that's not true. Most desktop displays are 300-400 nits. HDR
| displays get up to 1000ish nits but not for the whole screen.
|
| Phone screens are brighter because of outdoor use, but 550 is
| more than enough for indoor monitors.
|
| (Not to... nit pick)
| odyssey7 wrote:
| Maybe Amazon will elevate its kindle game now. I just want a
| large-enough ePaper display for PDFs that's just as comfortable
| to hold, has light so I can read it in the dark, and is
| waterproof. The lack of serious smartphone-like capabilities is a
| feature, not a bug, but the awkwardness with PDFs is a bug.
| Beijinger wrote:
| I want this but not for this price:
| https://shop.dasung.com/products/dasung-25-3-e-ink-monitor-p...
| 7thaccount wrote:
| Interesting that Mac is not supported.
| manmal wrote:
| Might be the temporal dithering that can't be disabled.
| craftkiller wrote:
| Not the color variant of the same monitor?
| https://shop.dasung.com/products/dasung-paperlike-color-
| worl...
|
| If it was gallery 3 and half the price I'd order one today.
| magic_hamster wrote:
| There are a few products like this already like the Boox Tab X
| which is 13.3". Roughly A4 sized, so it's very good for reading
| papers. However, if you're willing to go with a more
| conventional screen, there are convertible laptops that will a
| very good job in reading papers in full color.
| ankit219 wrote:
| There is remarkable paper pro, but it's expensive. And i would
| want a browser at the very least to download stuff for my
| reading. (mostly pdfs)
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| reMarkable however is not very pleasant to use as a reading
| device, because the screen is just not light enough.
| adolph wrote:
| Weight or brightness?
| 3eb7988a1663 wrote:
| Having played with one for 60 seconds, I assume the
| author meant weight. It is definitely a bit hefty for
| something on which you might want to do long form
| reading.
| refulgentis wrote:
| I have one and I don't think so, at all, to the point it
| seemed unreasonable.
|
| But it is _not_ unreasonable: you 've used one too, and
| are reasoning.
|
| So I'm thinking...how can I dispel my perception that
| Remarkable is definitely _less than_ a paperback book?
|
| _googles_
|
| Ah, a printer's book weight calculator!
| (https://www.bookmobile.com/book-weight-calculator/)
|
| Let's do cheapest & lightest paper possible. Hmm how many
| pages for long form...600 pages seems open to questions
| still, lets do 400.
|
| Use the default size for a paperback in the calculator,
| 6.25" x 9", sounds reasonable.
|
| Results:
|
| Paperback is 595g. Remarkable Pro is 525g. Remarkable is
| 404g.
|
| This aside, my prior was light-as-in-display, the
| background is more towards midgray than white
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I don't have the very latest one, mine is the one before
| the current one so perhaps I am no longer correct, but my
| issue was brightness.
|
| The screen is big enough and the text is big enough by
| itself that I should not need my reading glasses, if the
| contrast was great enough, but it isn't great enough.
| That by itself is extremely irritating to me.
| yapyap wrote:
| hell yeah
| Beijinger wrote:
| Hm. Looks like it is available already?
| https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/tcl-nxtpaper-11
| pyrophane wrote:
| I believe that is the previous generation. Their naming is
| confusing.
| syntaxing wrote:
| I recently got a Boox Go Color 7 (I know I know, the GPL
| violations suck but the options are limited). I was blown away
| how usable the Kaleidoscope screens are. All the reviews online
| made them sound absolutely terrible. But having color makes the
| users experience much richer and enjoyable. My spouse has a Kobo
| Libra Color and she loves it equally as much.
| rcthompson wrote:
| Does anyone know where I can see one of these screens in person?
| I'm interested in potentially owning one for reading comics,
| graphic novels, etc., but I'd really like to see what it looks
| like in person before spending money on one.
| IshKebab wrote:
| What exactly is paper-like about this? It sounds like it is still
| transmissive (they talk about brightness rather than contrast),
| which is just the same as any other screen no? E-ink is paper-
| like because it's reflective.
| mbrubeck wrote:
| It sounds like it is dual-mode / transflective, based on the
| description of the button that "turns the display into an e-ink
| format" with "a huge increase in battery life, up to 7 days of
| reading."
| sigio wrote:
| I have an older NXTPAPER Tcl tablet, its just a regular tft lcd
| screen, with a textured coating making it feel more paperlike
| and giving it a abti-glare coating. Its quite nice, but nowhere
| near epaper, so it does 60fps, but uses just as much power as
| regular tft displays, at the cost of some brightness
| Animats wrote:
| So they just moved away from the annoying shiny screen to a
| matte surface? That's good; the shiny glass screen is a
| marketing thing with negative usability value. My big
| displays are all matte.
| geor9e wrote:
| Can you use it in direct sunlight? That'd be the main
| advantage for me. I enjoy lounging outdoors with a laptop. My
| macbook screen is completely unusable in the sun.
| WillAdams wrote:
| Other competitors in this space:
|
| - Daylight Computer (mentioned in the article)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40456834
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40754445
|
| - Onyx Boox https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27513521
|
| - Kobo https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40015429
|
| - Amazon Kindle Scribe (also mentioned)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33009715
|
| FWIW, I still haven't managed to fully replace my Newton
| MessagePad with a single device --- the Samsung Galaxy Note 10+
| comes close, but I don't like to read books on it, and it's a bit
| small, so makes sketching fussy.
|
| The Kindle Scribe is great, for reading books, but no immediacy
| in handwriting recognition/shape conversion, so I only use it for
| note-taking and sketching, but not for writing first drafts or
| editing texts.
|
| The Wacom One 13 (gen one screen) attached to my MacBook is a
| nice fallback, and makes it convenient when I'm both taking notes
| or referring to a text (on my Scribe) and
| drawing/annotating/working on a project on my Mac.
|
| The Samsung Galaxy Book 3 Pro 360 is awesome, but a bit large and
| cumbersome when folded into tablet mode --- really wish Samsung
| had made a replacement for my Galaxy Book 12 (the perfect thing
| would be a dual-screen 12" device w/ Wacom EMR, competing against
| the Lenovo Yogabook 9i (which I'd buy if it had Wacom EMR)).
|
| A dual-fold 3-panel device where the outside panel was e-ink
| would be perfect.
| conception wrote:
| On an aside i have a newton i bring out to "show the kids" and
| it's amazing how good it still is. Really ahead of its time.
| WillAdams wrote:
| Nice!
|
| Unfortunately, mine was left on a desk which got buried under
| stuff when my kids were young and the batteries corroded.
|
| I keep considering buying an MP2100, but it's hard to justify
| given the number of devices around the house which seldom see
| use.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I watched _For All Mankind_ , which is an alternative history
| (branching in 1969, when the Russians beat us to the moon).
|
| They don't have iPhone-like smartphones (They haven't even
| reached 2015, yet -and we've got a major base on Mars), but
| everyone is FaceTiming on these gizmos that look a hell of a
| lot like Newtons.
| manmal wrote:
| The Hannsnote 2 is another one, and (at least has been)
| available in the EU.
| afandian wrote:
| I have one. And a couple of Newtons. The Hannsnote 2 looks
| great outdoors but it is hard to get the lighting right to
| make it usable indoors.
| fotta wrote:
| I would add the nano-texture display option on the M4 iPad Pros
| (1TB+ SKUs only) and the newest MacBook Pros. I recently bought
| an iPad Pro with the option and it's been really nice. I can
| read outside in direct sunlight with it. The downside is a
| slight loss in contrast and very small loss in crispness but
| frankly for my use cases it still looks really good. My next
| MBP I'll be getting this option.
| pyrophane wrote:
| I really want to like the more recent devices from Boox. The
| display tech is just about there with their "Super Refresh." It
| works well enough for most apps where you are scrolling. Problem
| is that the software is pretty buggy and can become randomly
| unresponsive to touch input, which can be pretty frustrating.
| This has been true on the Tab Ultra, the Tab Mini C, and the
| Palma 2.
|
| Still, Boox tablets are the closest to what I've been looking
| for: an eInk device with enough flexibility that I can read more
| than just books on it.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Avoid Boox. Their displays are very fragile and have a
| reputation for cracking even if you're careful. That happened
| to my Air 3 C about 3 months after I bought it. I was very
| careful with it - never traveled with it, only used it at home.
| One day after charging it I turned it on and the screen was
| ruined. I contacted Boox about warranty repair and they said it
| was my fault and I would have to pay $300+ plus shipping both
| ways to get it fixed. They have a reputation for blaming the
| customer first. I'll never buy one of their products again.
| maxglute wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4feBmyySDQk
|
| Physical toggle switch really sells it.
| hinkley wrote:
| Goddamn, if that's how smooth eInk is now maybe it's time for
| me to finally buy a reader.
| _visgean wrote:
| I dont think this is e-ink and that the point of this
| article.
| pavlov wrote:
| I have the Daylight Computer mentioned in this article.
|
| I like it quite a lot (though the price is still high enough that
| it's really an indulgence only justified if you can buy gadgets
| through an employer or your own company).
|
| The physical design is the opposite of the Apple aesthetic.
| Instead of metal and glass and vibrant colors, it's a dull gray
| rectangle with a soft-touch plastic backside and a sort of
| paperish texture on the display. In fact it looks and feels like
| a prop from Apple TV's "Silo". It gets a nice lived-in quality
| after a few months.
|
| The display is sharp and fast and monochrome -- a unique
| combination these days. It reminds me of the original NeXT in
| that sense, which is great. But the brightness and viewing angles
| take some getting used to. It's really good in daylight, as the
| company's name suggests. The backlight has an adjustable amber
| tone which goes with the retro/"Silo" vibe and is also nice in
| the evening.
|
| It's good for reading articles and books, but the monochrome
| display is also a surprisingly effective distraction remover
| filter for websites and even videos. I generally hate watching
| YouTube videos, but if that's the only option to learn something,
| I'll rather watch the video on the Daylight Computer.
|
| It comes with a stylus and the display has a nice texture, but I
| haven't yet got into note-taking or drawing.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| When I go to their site I only see something about pre-ordering
| and putting down a $100 deposit. What's the price and will
| Libby (Library app) work on it?
| pavlov wrote:
| I paid 680 euros + shipping for an early batch last summer.
|
| It has Android and the Play Store, so all those apps work.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| (The original NeXT was not very fast, due to the MO drive.
| Imagine VM thrashing on that thing.)
| pavlov wrote:
| I meant the display. The Daylight Computer has a monochrome
| LCD which updates very fast compared to e-ink screens.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| > In addition to the tablet (still without price or release date)
|
| That's the thing... I saw a discussion on reddit the other day in
| which people were asking about TCL NXTPaper products announced at
| last year's (2024) CES that still weren't available. I'm
| interested in one of these NXTPaper Tablet 11 Plus devices for an
| ereader as my Boox Air 3C's color eink display died about 3
| months after buying it (now I know they have a reputation for
| being extremely fragile). But I wonder if it will ever actually
| be available in the US.
| jerlam wrote:
| At least for last year, TCL has been partnering with mobile
| providers for distribution.
|
| TCL Tab 10 NXTPAPER at Verizon:
| https://www.verizon.com/tablets/tcl-tab-10-nxtpaper-5g/
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I've seen that. I don't want to buy a tablet from a mobile
| provider. I'm not going to make calls on a tablet. I hope
| they sell a version of the 11 plus that's not tied to a
| mobile provider.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| If you're looking for an eink device, Avoid Boox devices. I
| bought an Air 3C and the display was borked 3 months after I
| bought it. Knowing that their displays are fragile, I never
| traveled with it. Only used it at home and left it on a shelf on
| top of a stack of books (no books on top of it). One day after
| charging it overnight I turned it on an found the display ruined
| - internally cracked, it would seem. When I wrote boox to inquire
| about warranty service they told me it was my fault and it was
| going to cost me $300+ to get it repaired (plus shipping each
| way).
|
| Boox devices are very fragile and the blame the customer when the
| display breaks.
| goosedragons wrote:
| Vast majority of eInk devices are equally fragile. It's not
| unique to Boox. They use a glass substrate that's suspectible
| to cracking. A handful of devices use plastic like the Kobo
| Forma but they're a rarity. While Boox's response to you was
| bad, personally I've had no issues with my Boox screens despite
| traveling with them and having them for years.
| kybernetikos wrote:
| My boox note has lasted years, been to the beach and on hikes,
| visited multiple countries, and commuted with me most work
| days. No sign of fragility. In that time I've had two kindles
| and one kobo break.
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| Is it a color boox? Mine was color. I think those are more
| fragile.
| kybernetikos wrote:
| Colour ones weren't around when I bought it. I had been
| considering an upgrade but it sounds like maybe I should
| wait.
| solarkraft wrote:
| FWIW, I have had a Nova 2 for years. I dropped it on stone
| once, a piece of the frame glass chipped out, but the display
| is fine.
|
| I wouldn't recommend it for other reasons (it's not really good
| for notes, which I had hoped to get out of it).
| geor9e wrote:
| Put this in the reviews to be aggregated into an X out of 5
| score I can logically base decisions on. It seems irrational to
| let one strange experience (screen cracked for no reason
| sitting on a shelf) that occured to 1 out of what, 100,000?
| customers affect my shopping decisions. Most of the boox
| reviews I've come across love it for years. Sorry yours broke.
| When a warranty isn't honored, I've always had luck with Visa
| Signature or Amex doing a full refund within the first 2-3
| years under their "extended warranty" benefit.
| pianoben wrote:
| And here I thought this was about the programming language!
| inSenCite wrote:
| "It will be released first in Canada..."
|
| Filing this under things we don't see very often (or at least
| since RIM went underwater).
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