[HN Gopher] Device uses wind to create ammonia out of air
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       Device uses wind to create ammonia out of air
        
       Author : rbanffy
       Score  : 91 points
       Date   : 2025-01-16 14:43 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org)
        
       | ada1981 wrote:
       | How do we create this right now?
       | 
       | What are the costs for the catalysts and how long do they last?
       | 
       | Those sorts of questions feel important to understand.
        
         | Tagbert wrote:
         | Most ammonia is produced via the Haber process. It takes
         | nitrogen from the air and hydrogen from natural gas and
         | combines them into ammonia. It uses an iron catalyst. This
         | process emits significant CO2.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haber_process
        
           | adrian_b wrote:
           | Currently hydrogen made from natural gas is the cheapest, but
           | the Haber process could equally well use hydrogen made from
           | water electrolysis using solar/wind energy.
           | 
           | In that case there will be no production of CO2.
           | 
           | The only reason why this is not done yet is because avoiding
           | the production of CO2 would raise the cost of ammonia, then
           | the costs of fertilizers and various other chemical
           | substances, including explosives, which would trigger a
           | cascade of price increases in food and in many other
           | products.
        
             | gs17 wrote:
             | > but the Haber process could equally well use hydrogen
             | made from water electrolysis using solar/wind energy.
             | 
             | You can also use methane pyrolysis, which outputs solid
             | carbon instead of CO2. It's supposed to be somewhere in the
             | middle of cost between steam methane reforming and water
             | electrolysis.
        
       | blueflow wrote:
       | Take that ammonium, burn it, have heat, power a steam engine,
       | infinite energy?
       | 
       | Where does that energy come from? 1st law of thermodynamics?
        
         | LincolnedList wrote:
         | The energy comes from the sun, without it the atmosphere would
         | freeze and this device wouldn't work.
        
         | kurthr wrote:
         | The power could come from anything (solar, wind, wave) other
         | than the dominant current source for all ammonia, the Haber
         | Process. TFA mentions this in the headline? Could this be done
         | before by just using water+air+solar, yes it could. Frankly,
         | this is just a proof of concept and any commercial solution
         | would be different for scaling reasons.
         | 
         | Professor Aldo Rossa started popularizing a lot of this in the
         | 80s. https://patents.google.com/patent/US4107277A/en
         | 
         | Having something other than a fossil fuel source for the most
         | common fertilizer in the world seems useful. Also, it's easier,
         | cheaper and safer to ship ammonia around than Hydrogen since
         | it's a low pressure liquid and more energy dense. People have
         | been talking about using it as a shipping fuel for decades.
        
           | blueflow wrote:
           | You didn't read the article? "The process requires no
           | external power" right after the headline.
        
             | hansvm wrote:
             | Like you said, the energy comes from somewhere. If I had to
             | guess, it's effectively solar powered (the catalyst
             | lowering the activation energy enough that photons can
             | actually do the work), plus indirectly solar powered in
             | that you need wind to physically move the compounds around.
        
               | adrian_b wrote:
               | I have read the research paper and the energy appears to
               | come mostly from the pump, because the flow of gas and
               | vapor in the device causes contact electrification, which
               | helps the redox reaction.
               | 
               | They have not given any numbers about the energy consumed
               | by the pump, but at least in this experimental devices it
               | is likely that the amount of ammonia that is produced is
               | very small for the energy consumed by the pump, in
               | comparison with other synthesis methods.
               | 
               | For now, the ammonia is produced as a solution in water
               | with very low ammonia concentration. Perhaps this could
               | be usable directly as a fertilizer for plants. For any
               | other uses, concentrating the ammonia produced in this
               | way would require a large amount of additional energy.
               | 
               | In the form presented now, this method of ammonia
               | synthesis would be too inefficient, but the authors hope
               | that the efficiency can be improved some orders of
               | magnitude.
        
             | ghostly_s wrote:
             | If it requires no external power what's that bigass battery
             | pack at the base for?
        
         | BobaFloutist wrote:
         | For our purposes solar power is effectively perpetual motion.
        
           | blueflow wrote:
           | And how does the presented device make use of solar power?
           | Wind movement?
        
           | PittleyDunkin wrote:
           | I see what you're saying in the sense of passive energy
           | collection, but perpetual motion strikes me as a terrible
           | metaphor. Perpetual motion would imply so many thing about
           | the universe that solar can't deliver.
        
           | dessimus wrote:
           | If you consider solar only working for 50% of the day on
           | average, "perpetual".
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | This is under-explained, isn't it? The reaction has to be
         | endothermic, so it must be taking in ambient heat. Would be
         | useful if someone dug up the actual paper rather than the press
         | release.
         | 
         | One aspect of these miracle solutions to watch out for: the
         | catalyst is often very expensive and has a finite lifespan.
         | 
         | Edit: actual paper
         | https://www.science.org/doi/full/10.1126/sciadv.ads4443
         | 
         | Edit: got to the bit in the paper where they describe the
         | process; "contact electrification". This appears to be an
         | electrostatic phenomenon like tribocharging (the old "rub a
         | balloon on your hair" trick). Water droplets hitting the
         | catalyst generates enough potential at the surface to trigger a
         | reaction. So I suppose the energy input is actually in the
         | spray+pump of the experiment, or wind in the outdoor example.
         | 
         | The resulting output is extremely dilute. Raising the
         | concentration is likely to consume more energy for generating
         | an actually useful output.
        
           | blueflow wrote:
           | There is the smoking gun:
           | 
           | > resulting in ammonia concentrations ranging from 25 to 120
           | mM in 1 hour
           | 
           | Not usable as fuel. You'd need to separate the ammonium from
           | the water using a energy intensive process (cooking or such).
        
             | smaudet wrote:
             | Direct solar energy output, perhaps. Seems potentially
             | simple to boil it off with heat.
        
             | NortySpock wrote:
             | At that point in the presentation, I'd probably
             | sarcastically ask if they were accidentally measuring how
             | many dogs mark their territory in a 100 foot radius of the
             | device, per hour, via their collector.
        
               | amluto wrote:
               | They did attempt to control for the ammonia concentration
               | in the collected water without their catalyst. But they
               | did not try to calculate the equilibrium concentration of
               | ammonia in water exposed to the atmosphere.
        
             | cyberax wrote:
             | You can catalytically oxidize ammonia in water solution.
             | The energy generated is more than enough to overcome the
             | energy released during solvation.
        
           | amluto wrote:
           | I find it surprising that the paper has no discussion
           | whatsoever of the thermodynamics of the process. The overall
           | reaction is very endothermic (you can burn ammonia in oxygen
           | as fuel!), so the only way it's happening at all is that it's
           | approaching equilibrium, presumably driven by the increase of
           | entropy available by creating a low concentration of ammonia
           | in whatever weird phase it's created in. Getting high
           | concentrations from a similar process is going to need some
           | energy-consuming step to shift that equilibrium.
           | 
           | Worse, they seem to be using some chilled object to condense
           | ammonia solution from the air, so you're also paying the
           | energy cost of keeping it cold, which means you're paying the
           | full cost of producing a _lot_ of water from atmospheric
           | water vapor. _Maybe_ a future improvement could start with
           | liquid water.
        
             | pjc50 wrote:
             | The droplet size appears to be critical here.
        
       | hammock wrote:
       | So they invented a (chemical) bean plant/rhizobium? Or
       | Nitrobacter. AKA atmospheric nitrogen fixer
        
         | btbuildem wrote:
         | No small feat!
        
       | bparsons wrote:
       | There are a million ways to turn large amounts of energy into
       | smaller amounts of energy.
        
         | foxyv wrote:
         | Hopefully, one day they will turn large amounts of cheap energy
         | into valuable chemical feed stock and fuels. When you think
         | about it, aluminum producers are doing something similar.
        
         | BobaFloutist wrote:
         | And many of them are incredibly useful. Take, for example, the
         | burning of fuel. Or eating and digesting.
        
       | _aavaa_ wrote:
       | Ammonia as a fuel is an absurdly stupid idea. It is trading the
       | lives and safety of crews and passengers for a bit of money.
        
         | ReptileMan wrote:
         | What is so dangerous about it compared to lets say a gasoline
         | engine converted to use LPG or Methane? There are many of those
         | in Europe where I live.
        
           | _aavaa_ wrote:
           | You mean aside from being a colorless toxic gas that will
           | kill you in as little as 5 minutes?
        
             | ReptileMan wrote:
             | Just like propane, nitrogen, laughing gas, and methane ...
             | I don't follow?
        
               | fred69 wrote:
               | I'm guessing you have never gotten a snoutfull of
               | ammonia? Relatively low concentrations in air feel like
               | asphyxiation. It also hangs around near the ground rather
               | than floating upward.
        
               | smaudet wrote:
               | I think the concern here is somewhat misplaced...ammonia
               | powered passenger vehicles are probably a bad idea.
               | 
               | But there's no reason that needs to be true for e.g.
               | automated shipping industries. The danger to the water
               | seems relatively low as well, as water dilution seems to
               | be one of the best ways to deal with spillages. I'm
               | uncertain the environmental repercussions, however it
               | does seem to be the case that aquatic mammals and humans
               | have natural methods of elimination, making it a game of
               | concentration and dispersion vs e.g. an oil spill that is
               | both highly toxic and nearly impossible to properly clean
               | up.
               | 
               | The majority of other applications are industrial
               | (fertilizer, energy storage): there are major issues with
               | our current distribution systems, cheap ammonia batteries
               | could be the key to efficient electricity and hydrogen
               | production and distribution.
        
               | thombat wrote:
               | Those others are effectively asphyxiants: they'll kill
               | you by displacing oxygen, leading to you collapsing and
               | dying if not rescued, eg by being dragged clear or having
               | ventilation improved. Ammonia is a caustic: airway
               | constriction and oedema will get you at modest
               | concentrations, weeping eyes may hamper your escape, and
               | if rescued you may have lasting damage.
        
             | jofer wrote:
             | Yeah, ammonia leaks are much more nasty than methane or
             | hydrogen leaks. Methane, especially in LNG form, is quite
             | safe compared to ammonia. LPG is even more stable than LNG
             | and requires lower pressures. With that said, hydrogen
             | leaks are "fun" because large ones usually self ignite and
             | burn with a hot but mostly invisible flame. But hydrogen
             | itself isn't toxic. Similarly, methane and propane aren't
             | directly toxic.
             | 
             | Basically, an ammonia leak will kill you. By itself. The
             | others are only a problem if they're the right
             | concentrations to ignite. That's a relatively high
             | concentration and a larger leak. Much smaller leaks of
             | ammonia are deadly.
             | 
             | It's still a good solution for some things, but it's a bad
             | solution for consumer vehicles like cars for that reason.
        
           | AlotOfReading wrote:
           | Ammonia is much more caustic, toxic, and explosive than LPG
           | and incidents involving it like the Minot derailment tend to
           | be significantly worse.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minot_train_derailment
        
         | henearkr wrote:
         | I'm surmising that it could be a useful first step towards
         | converting the atmospheric CO2 into something easier to store
         | long-term.
         | 
         | So the ammonia doesn't need to be useful in itself, but only to
         | be able to be converted on-site to something more storable
         | (more stable, liquefaction at lower pressure or higher
         | temperature, and so on), or alternatively something more useful
         | that could displace other standard CO2-intensive industrial
         | processes.
        
           | _aavaa_ wrote:
           | > into something easier to store long-term.
           | 
           | Ammonia is NH3, there's no CO2 to store.
           | 
           | > alternatively something more useful that could displace
           | other standard CO2-intensive industrial processes.
           | 
           | Except they are talking about using it as a fuel. If you want
           | to displace CO2 at least use methanol, it's a liquid that's
           | more energy dense and easier to handle safely.
        
         | wedn3sday wrote:
         | Gasoline as a fuel is an absurdly stupid idea, dangerous to
         | handle, toxic, and has a tendency to burst into flame!
        
           | _aavaa_ wrote:
           | I'm sure you can understand the difference of degree between
           | something that is lethal in minutes and a gas (ammonia) and
           | something that takes much higher and longer exposures to be
           | deadly, plus is a liquid (gasoline).
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | Gasoline is not nearly as dangerous, toxic or as likely to
           | burst into flame.
        
       | ThatGuyRaion wrote:
       | Fractional Distillation is nothing new.
        
       | einpoklum wrote:
       | "Researchers produce NH_3 fuel from N-gas-compound with H_2O
       | vapor"
       | 
       | Doesn't sound so exciting.
       | 
       | But, sniping aside - is there a potential for cheap enough
       | production in abundant enough amounts to use safely in machine
       | engines? Or as grid-level storage medium for solar energy? The
       | very transformation is neat, but the application is what would be
       | interesting.
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | > produce NH_3 fuel from N-gas-compound with H_2O vapor
         | 
         | At room temperature! That's the interesting bit.
        
           | adrian_b wrote:
           | In TFA the alternative methods for making ammonia are
           | mentioned.
           | 
           | One such method, which already works at room temperature for
           | combining hydrogen with nitrogen into ammonia, uses
           | electricity together with a platinum-gold catalyst and it has
           | a 13% energetic efficiency.
           | 
           | The methods described here uses cheaper materials and the
           | authors hope that some time in the future it might reach a
           | better energetic efficiency.
        
       | chrisbrandow wrote:
       | Assuming the energy input is atmospheric warmth, then the real
       | question is what volume of ammonia can you produce with this
       | device per acre? Then how does that amount of captured energy
       | compare with wind/solar in the same area?
       | 
       | Otherwise, you're just better off, producing electricity from one
       | of those sources, or producing ammonia, using electricity from
       | one of those sources, after accounting for losses in the various
       | processes of course.
        
         | dexwiz wrote:
         | Ammonia is very common in industrial applications.
        
           | tomrod wrote:
           | True. Commonality of ammonia references ammonia demand
           | whereas grandparent comment was referencing the supply
           | capacity per acre.
        
         | smaudet wrote:
         | Sibling commenters mention industrial uses, sustainability
         | means far more than just cars or electricity, part of why the
         | focus on electric/cars is so short-sighted (never mind the
         | issues electricity distribution brings to the table)...
         | 
         | But for cars/electricity, this is potentially excellent news
         | (assuming longevity and cost of the operating equipment). The
         | distribution costs are much lower than Hydrogen, and it could
         | be used easily to power existing Hydrogen fleets. I'd wager
         | this even makes electricity distribution easier, as ammonia
         | batteries could be relatively stable and easily distributed as
         | well.
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | Ammonia is far to dangerous for cars. Household cleaning
           | ammonia concentrate is 99% water. That is concentrate, you
           | dilute it for use (generally 16:1), and it is still nasty
           | stuff. No car with enough ammonia to use it for energy will
           | be allowed in a tunnel. To work on a car that uses this for
           | fuel will require extreme protective gear - a chemical
           | breathing mask, and protective clothing covering the entire
           | body. Working on machines in such gear is not easy.
        
             | smaudet wrote:
             | True, although this is a Red Herring of an argument.
             | 
             | Ammonia batteries does not mean "Ammonia Cars", I never
             | said it did nor meant it should.
             | 
             | They are, however, excellent in areas that likely already
             | required a hazmat suit (generators, substations, hydrogen
             | fuel pumps, fertilizer factories, etc.)
        
       | selimthegrim wrote:
       | Didn't a group from KAUST falsify Zare's results about
       | microdroplets a few years ago and show that they weren't anything
       | special
        
       | seemaze wrote:
       | The article mentions "Traditional methods for ammonia production
       | require high temperatures and pressures" in reference to the
       | existing Haber-Bosch process for producing NH3 from thin air, an
       | interesting historic story on its own.
       | 
       | https://blog.rootsofprogress.org/turning-air-into-bread
       | 
       | https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/73464/the-alchemy-o...
        
         | trestacos wrote:
         | +1 "alchemy of air" is a great read. The angle that would be
         | most interesting to the HN crowd is that it exposed me to how
         | much innovation was happening in chemistry in this pre-WWI era.
         | Reminds me a bit of silicon valley.
         | 
         | The also a fascinating look at how the inventors got heavily
         | caught up in WWI and WWII due to being in Germany and how tied
         | up their industry became with government. Interesting to
         | reflect on in current times.
         | 
         | Truly a great book.
        
         | lancewiggs wrote:
         | https://www.liquium.nz/ is working on reducing the energy (a
         | lot) required for the Haber-Bosch process.
        
       | dizzant wrote:
       | The comments here are focused on how much energy it would take to
       | turn this into fuel. The real story here is decentralized
       | fertilizer production, buried at the end of the article:
       | 
       | > this innovation could fundamentally reshape fertilizer
       | manufacturing by providing a more sustainable, cost-effective
       | alternative to centralized production
       | 
       | The high energy cost of Haber-Bosch, plus the additional cost of
       | transportation from manufacturer to farmer could potentially be
       | eliminated by distributed, passive fertilizer generators
       | scattered around in the fields.
       | 
       | I'm no expert, but assuming sufficient local production, low
       | concentration could potentially be overcome by continuous
       | fertilization with irrigation throughout the growing season.
       | 
       | Let's find out. Some quick fiddling with a molarity calculator
       | and an almanac:
       | 
       | -- 100 uM ammonia -> 1.7 mg / L ammonia
       | 
       | -- 82% nitrogen -> 1.4 mg / L nitrogen
       | 
       | -- My lawn needs around 1 lb / 1000 sq ft, or around 5 g / m2
       | 
       | -- So my lawn needs about 3500 L / m2 of fertilized irrigation
       | total for the season
       | 
       | -- Ballpark farming irrigation is around 0.2 inches per day, or
       | around 5L/m2
       | 
       | I would need to water my lawn about 700 days in the year, or more
       | realistically up my irrigation rate by about a factor of 4, AND
       | source all of the water from the fertilizer box.
       | 
       | I'm a little skeptical that I can allocate space for enough
       | production and still have a lawn left to fertilize. The tech
       | probably isn't ready for the big time on an industrial farm yet,
       | but for research demo, this seems like a promising direction!
       | Much more than concentrating it for fuel.
        
         | darth_avocado wrote:
         | Until big fertilizer lobbies to make decentralized fertilizer
         | illegal. Insert _national security_ , _wrong hands_ blah blah
        
           | cogman10 wrote:
           | NGL, it would be an easy sell. You are just a hop/skip and a
           | quack away from turning that decentralized fertilizer into a
           | decentralized bomb making system.
        
             | dizzant wrote:
             | A hop, skip, quack, jump, and fairly obvious high-energy
             | distillation process away. The national security angle
             | probably isn't a concern here for the same reason that this
             | process doesn't produce good fuel.
        
               | darksaints wrote:
               | Ammonium nitrate is made from ammonia and nitric acid
               | (which is also made from ammonia). Therefore, ammonia is
               | the only necessary direct precursor to ammonium nitrate,
               | which is probably the most relevant oxidizer in
               | improvised explosives today.
               | 
               | Not saying that it should be regulated on the basis of
               | national security, but it's not like there isn't a
               | potential security concern.
        
           | gopalv wrote:
           | > Insert national security, wrong hands blah blah
           | 
           | That isn't a big reach.
           | 
           | Ammonium nitrate is already controlled in several parts of
           | the world
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANFO
        
             | themaninthedark wrote:
             | ANFO is explosives made with ammonium nitrate(Ammonium
             | Nitrate Fuel Oil), however ammonium nitrate is by itself
             | rather energetic and will explode when store improperly.
             | The most recent memorable incident would be 2020 Beirut:
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Beirut_explosion
             | 
             | Imagine one of these units left somewhere, slowly filling a
             | tank that has not been sealed, water evaporating back out
             | leaving a nice ammonium nitrate powder behind....
        
           | dylan604 wrote:
           | What happens when your decentralized fertilizer mixes with
           | someone's copyrighted/trademarked fertilizer? Do you have to
           | pay them their dues?
           | 
           | If you think this is outlandish, you must not be familiar
           | with Monsanto
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | That is an exaggeration. The only time Monsanto did
             | anything was cases of intentional mixing.
        
             | 9rx wrote:
             | _> you must not be familiar with Monsanto_
             | 
             | It has been out of business for almost seven years now. Who
             | is putting any energy into remembering them at this point?
        
               | jfengel wrote:
               | It's not out of business. It merged with Bayer. It's a
               | change in ownership, and to some degree a change in upper
               | management, but large swathes of the company are
               | unchanged.
        
         | cogman10 wrote:
         | Interesting idea.
         | 
         | So, farms are definitely setup already to accomplish this. Most
         | farms have moved to central pivots for irrigation, and they
         | already inject fertilizer into the pivot [1]. If fertilization
         | could be generated onsite, then you could theoretically have
         | everything plumbed together to "just work" without much
         | intervention or shipping of chemicals.
         | 
         | [1] https://www.farmprogress.com/farming-equipment/chemical-
         | fert...
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | Rain will wash nitrogen away (down to streams, rivers, and
           | then the ocean creating lots of problems) so you want to
           | apply nitrogen with an eye on when it will rain so your
           | fertilizer stays on the field where you want it. Your link
           | doesn't specify what fertilizer is being applied, I would
           | guess nitrogen is not one.
           | 
           | Ammonia should be applied to the soil - in the air it is a
           | hazard that can kill people and harm the plants (farmers wear
           | lots of protective gear when working with ammonia, with more
           | other things they don't bother).
           | 
           | As such I'm not convinced that is the right answer. You want
           | a system that will apply nitrogen
        
             | cogman10 wrote:
             | > I would guess nitrogen is not one.
             | 
             | It's the main fertilizer applied.
             | 
             | Here's another site talking about common problems with this
             | technique (from a farmer's perspective). [1]
             | 
             | [1] https://www.valleyirrigation.com/blog/valley-
             | blog/2022/06/13...
        
         | blueflow wrote:
         | I mean, the extended headline suggests it is producing fuel,
         | which is wrong.
        
           | darksaints wrote:
           | Ammonia has a lot of uses, and fuel is one of them.
        
         | egberts1 wrote:
         | Would it be suitable for Mars atmosphere?
        
       | aaroninsf wrote:
       | Related: my personal wistful thinking is,
       | 
       | AI -> safe deployable fusion -> power for desalination and
       | exactly this sort of thing.
       | 
       | In particular I daydream about use of "free" power to perform
       | carbon sequestration back into liquid hydrocarbon fuels for
       | existing ICE etc. infrastructure...voila, no delay to retool
       | civilization while getting down to the business of bringing
       | carbon back under 400 ppm.
        
         | worik wrote:
         | > Related: my personal wistful thinking is,
         | 
         | > AI -> safe deployable fusion
         | 
         | This reminds me of the recent HN referred article on Cargo
         | Cults
        
           | rotexo wrote:
           | I interpreted that causality as AI leading to deployment of
           | carbon-neutral energy, then when the AI bubble bursts, we've
           | pushed carbon-neutral electricity sources off the learning
           | curve cliff and it is available for cheap without the
           | original consumers needing it. From that perspective, it
           | could be any carbon neutral electricity (fusion, fission,
           | enhanced geothermal, super-deep geothermal etc.). I could be
           | misinterpreting the parent comment.
        
         | alexchamberlain wrote:
         | The was an article here a while back about the production of
         | propane from water and CO2 (via a catalyst and electricity). I
         | think "renewable fossil fuels" are the only way we can handle
         | the fluctuating production of renewable energy and get the
         | density of fuel we need for storage, especially mobile storage
         | like fuel for cars & lorries.
        
       | cyberax wrote:
       | > The process can be powered simply by ambient wind to pass the
       | water vapor through the mesh.
       | 
       | That's not how chemistry works. You need to input external energy
       | to produce ammonia out of water and nitrogen. It's the law of
       | energy conservation.
       | 
       | In this case, the ultimate energy source appears to be the wind.
       | It tears off microdroplets of water from larger water bodies, so
       | the energy is stored in the surface tension of microdroplets.
        
       | darksaints wrote:
       | Are these really catalysts in the traditional definition of the
       | word? Meaning that the catalyst is non-sacrificial? This appears
       | to be suggesting that nitration can be done with atomospheric N2
       | simply with the right catalyst. But N2 is triple bonded, and the
       | lowest theoretical threshold to react N2 with anything is by
       | breaking at least one of those bonds, which is incredibly energy
       | intensive even under theoretically optimal conditions.
       | 
       | Some of the most promising research in replacing Haber-Bosch is
       | actually plasma-assisted nitration, which is basically just as
       | energy intensive as Haber-Bosch, but with drastically lower
       | capital requirements...something that could be done in your
       | backyard. I struggle to see how an ATP catalyst-only method could
       | even do anything close to breaking an N2 triple bond.
        
         | littlestymaar wrote:
         | Idk but soil micro-organisms do break N2 to make ammonia so
         | there sure exists a pathway that just implies catalysis at low
         | temperature.
        
           | hnmullany wrote:
           | Soil nitrate fixation is also energy intensive. The
           | nitrogenase enzyme takes about 27 ATPs to break a single N2
           | bond. Legumes feed about a third of their entire
           | photosynthesis output to their nitrogen fixing nodules in
           | order to generate significant amounts of nitrates.
           | 
           | There is no free lunch.
        
       | btbuildem wrote:
       | I wonder what are the side effects of extracting nitrogen out of
       | air -- supposing this was developed and deployed at scale.
        
         | pjc50 wrote:
         | It's 80% of the atmosphere. You're not going to run out. What
         | might be a risk is dumping it, nitrogenation of rivers is
         | already a problem in places.
        
         | atrus wrote:
         | I doubt much. We've been pumping billions of tons of co2 and
         | only slightly raised co2 and that's a small small portion of
         | the air in the atmosphere.
        
       | hnmullany wrote:
       | Here is an overview I wrote of next generation methods for
       | ammonia synthesis:
       | 
       | https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/climatetech-134-de-carbonizin...
       | 
       | (FWIW - there are many many promising lab results that turn out
       | to be false positives because the researchers did a bad job of
       | controlling potential contamination in their ammonia
       | measurements. Low concentrations of ammonia are everywhere, and
       | you have to do a really good job making sure you're not measuring
       | background levels vs. what you think you're producing)
        
       | casey2 wrote:
       | Am I being trolled? Scale it up a trillion times and you still
       | have nothing, not even compared to the current hourly production.
        
       | NotAnOtter wrote:
       | Ammonia is 1 Nitrogen bonded with 3 hydrogen.
       | 
       | The raw stuff is definitely there. Thought I'm sure there are
       | easier ways of making it.
        
       | maxrmk wrote:
       | I'm vaguely amused by the headline of "requires no external
       | power" right above the image of it sitting on top of (and plugged
       | in to) a giant portable battery.
        
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