[HN Gopher] Sweden brings more books and handwriting practice ba...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Sweden brings more books and handwriting practice back to its
       schools (2023)
        
       Author : redbell
       Score  : 239 points
       Date   : 2025-01-15 19:34 UTC (3 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (apnews.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (apnews.com)
        
       | whalesalad wrote:
       | I have always preferred physical books to digital ones.
        
       | _tariky wrote:
       | Right choice is to use e-ink tablets, not to switch back to text
       | books.
        
         | thrawa8387336 wrote:
         | Nah, try again. Producing that device, in Asia, is worse for
         | the environment than whatever a tree here and there could.
        
           | fullstop wrote:
           | The books might be printed in Asia as well.
        
           | pwillia7 wrote:
           | That depends on the number of books obviously
        
           | lagrange77 wrote:
           | Are e-ink displays especially bad for the environment, or are
           | you talking about electronics in general?
        
         | newsclues wrote:
         | Choice is an excellent option.
         | 
         | Printed books and or electronic versions, seems like the best
         | way to go for education.
        
         | Ericson2314 wrote:
         | Really sad the e-ink hasn't seen more widespread use. It's like
         | no one wants a middle ground between tech-hype and tech-doom.
        
       | silisili wrote:
       | I definitely agree that just giving kids a laptop/chromebook
       | instead of books is not working. My own child and her friends
       | just don't have the focus required, and easily get distracted out
       | to email, group chats, everything else going on right next to the
       | text.
       | 
       | That said, one thing I appreciate is that she doesn't have to lug
       | around 30lb backpacks like kids did when I was a child. We had
       | lockers, but realistically they didn't provide adequate time to
       | utilize them, so everyone just carried around all their books for
       | the day. Most of us hunched forward because of the weight.
       | 
       | It seems like something like a dumb ereader would be a good
       | middle ground? Put all the textbooks into one place, but don't
       | give it the ability to do anything but read? That or keep the
       | textbooks in the classroom and share.
        
         | jpcom wrote:
         | Physical books are still better than e-readers because you can
         | put sticky notes on the pages, jump back and forth between
         | pages quickly, and even start to know where pages are simply
         | based on how many leaves/pages are split between your left and
         | right hand. Textbooks are basically reference books, my
         | favorite dictionaries I start to "learn by hand" to know where
         | to flip to approximately to start my search.
        
           | throw5959 wrote:
           | My sister that's studying medicine says that her books would
           | be totally ruined in half a year if she used them like she
           | uses the virtual ones.
        
             | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
             | How does she use the virtual ones?
        
               | pwillia7 wrote:
               | encoded
        
               | throw5959 wrote:
               | Ndr42 said it better than I could.
        
             | ndr42 wrote:
             | The same is true for my students (german school system,
             | iPads form 7th to 13th grade): They are marking, annotating
             | and rearranging parts of the digitized pages as they like.
             | It would be impossible with printed books. (ok, they could
             | take a picture with the camera and do the same) They
             | have/use printed books but most of the students are
             | borrowing them from the school and are not allowed to write
             | in them.
             | 
             | So I use mostly digital material and most of the books stay
             | at home for studying (the books are heavy).
        
           | imadethis wrote:
           | I'd agree except for the ability to search in an e-book.
           | There's nothing worse than knowing the textbook in front of
           | you contains the answer you need but not remembering which of
           | the 1500 pages contains it. Being able to CTRL-F saved me
           | hours of time when I went back to school after e-books became
           | common.
        
             | groby_b wrote:
             | A decent index solves that just fine. And usually outpaces
             | ctrl-f chasing for a given word, because it's indexing by
             | ideas, not words. (If it's a decent index, that is :)
        
               | doug_durham wrote:
               | That not how indices work. It is by person or subject not
               | "idea". You can do the same thing but better with a
               | "ctrl-f" search.
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | Not really. An index is also a list of ideas you should
               | search for. Search for a synonym and control-f fails, but
               | the index will have a "see also" for that, or worst case
               | lets you scan for interesting words without reading the
               | whole book. The index will also leave out all the places
               | where a word happens to be used but are not useful to
               | someone searching for the term.
               | 
               | Of course a good index is hard (read expensive) to write
               | and so many books didn't have good indexes.
        
               | smarx007 wrote:
               | Good indices are built atop a taxonomy that is then used
               | extensively to list related taxonomic terms. This will
               | give you direct hierarchical terms (loosely maps to what
               | I guess you refer to as by subject) but also related
               | terms. A good indexer will also exercise judgement and
               | check with the author if certain terms are related and in
               | what way.
               | 
               | Let me give you an example of a high-quality index entry
               | from the Software Architecture in Practice (Bass et al.
               | 2021) [1]:
               | 
               | Availability
               | 
               | analytic model space, 259
               | 
               | analyzing, 255-259
               | 
               | broker pattern, 240
               | 
               | calculations, 259
               | 
               | CAP theorem, 523
               | 
               | CIA approach, 147
               | 
               | cloud, 521
               | 
               | design checklist, 96-98
               | 
               | detect faults tactic, 87-91
               | 
               | general scenario, 85-86
               | 
               | introduction, 79-81
               | 
               | planning for failure, 82-85
               | 
               | prevent faults tactic, 94-95
               | 
               | recover-from-faults tactics, 91-94
               | 
               | summary, 98-99
               | 
               | tactics overview, 87
               | 
               | As you see, it lists a number of taxonomic terms that are
               | merely related to each other and you might not think
               | about Ctrl+F-ing for them unless you already want to
               | search for them. You may come to this entry knowing about
               | CAP and navigate away to analytic model space, 259.
               | 
               | [1]:
               | https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/14786083-software-
               | archit...
        
               | smarx007 wrote:
               | It is quite disheartening to see a comment about book
               | indexes being downvoted. In professional publishing
               | houses, indexing is a job done by a qualified indexer and
               | is not as trivial as one may think [1]. Some rather
               | important reading guides [2] recommend to judge a book by
               | its Contents and Index, which are often overlooked in
               | books that were not edited by professionals or were
               | edited in haste.
               | 
               | [1]: https://abookindexer.com/why-use-a-qualified-
               | indexer/
               | 
               | [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/How_to_Read_a_Book
        
               | op00to wrote:
               | It is quite disheartening to see a comment about farriers
               | being downvoted. In professional blacksmith shops, horse
               | shoeing is a job done by a qualified farrier and not as
               | trivial as one may think.
        
               | smarx007 wrote:
               | Not quite. Not a big fan of analogies of questionable
               | fit, but let's try:
               | 
               | It is quite disheartening to see a comment about
               | importance of horse shoes being downvoted. In
               | professional blacksmith shops, horse shoeing is a job
               | done by a qualified farrier and not as trivial as one may
               | think. The importance of horseshoeing for horse wellbeing
               | is also highlighted in certain key equestrian literature.
        
               | iforgot22 wrote:
               | If your PDF has a traditional index in it, you can read
               | it then jump to the right page.
        
             | jcranmer wrote:
             | For a current project, I've been using a physical book as a
             | reference manual for the API I'm working with rather than
             | using the more typical internet search for the function
             | name. And it's actually somewhat surprising how efficient a
             | physical book is!
             | 
             | Sure, there's a lot of efficiency to Ctrl-F a text string
             | and just find all the places in a document. I won't deny
             | that it takes me longer to pull up the index, search for
             | the function name in the index, then flip to the page. But
             | then I can just leave the book open at that page on the
             | desk (or my lap). I never have to Alt-Tab, or fiddle with
             | the location of windows to switch between looking at
             | documentation and looking at the code I'm working on.
             | 
             | This difference was more stark when I was trying to close-
             | read a different specification to ensure that I understood
             | it well enough to make sure a PR implemented it correctly.
             | I needed to have three different parts of the specification
             | open simultaneously to bounce between all of them. With
             | physical paper, that's just a swish of a hand away. With a
             | PDF reader, well, goto that other section, scroll down to
             | the piece I wanted, now goto the first section again and
             | scroll down again and wait what was that back thing again
             | goto and scroll and scroll and goto and descent into
             | insanity. Trying to use multiple windows ameliorates the
             | problem somewhat, but it also takes an inordinate amount of
             | time to set the view up correctly, and I often end up
             | running into the "focus doesn't follow the eye gaze"
             | problem of typing in the wrong window and ruining the view.
        
               | Suppafly wrote:
               | >With a PDF reader, well, goto that other section, scroll
               | down to the piece I wanted, now goto the first section
               | again and scroll down again and wait what was that back
               | thing again goto and scroll and scroll and goto and
               | descent into insanity.
               | 
               | I pretty much just use screenshots in snagit for that
               | stuff.
        
           | sharkjacobs wrote:
           | On the one hand, yes, I agree. There's something about the
           | tactility of a book, about dogeared pages, and marginalia,
           | and having muscle memory to open a book at about the same
           | spot where I left off.
           | 
           | I grew up with that and it's a very comfortable skill set.
           | 
           | On the other hand, I've learned ways to manage and reference
           | information in digital formats. Bookmarks and links and
           | pasted snippets. Attachments and full text search. Not to
           | even get into real sicko stuff like Notion and Obsidian and
           | DEVONthink.
           | 
           | Being able to easily flip back and forth between pages is a
           | very useful technique, but so is being able to snap a
           | screenshot of a pdf and keep it open it in another window.
           | 
           | I'm a sucker for paper but I'm resistant to the idea that all
           | of these things are irreplaceable
        
             | Suppafly wrote:
             | >I'm a sucker for paper but I'm resistant to the idea that
             | all of these things are irreplaceable
             | 
             | This, I'm really comfortable with technology, but I feel
             | like a boomer when I watch kids that have grown up with it
             | their entire lives. Some people don't need the ability to
             | cross reference things much, but folks who do develop the
             | skills the need without having to revert to printed
             | material.
        
           | iforgot22 wrote:
           | My high school was mainly textbooks, then things were more
           | digital in college. Normally I'm against fancy new tech, but
           | this felt like an improvement in hindsight. I was never
           | missing the book I needed, there's cmd+f and page skip, I can
           | annotate without ruining it...
           | 
           | The real problem seems to be licensing. Lots of books are
           | physical-only, and the digital versions are those annoying
           | "epub" files instead of PDFs.
        
           | nfw2 wrote:
           | Many of the beneficial affordances you mention that are
           | available for print but not in ebooks is partly because ebook
           | technology is kind of bad. Navigation and annotation for
           | example could be much better in ebooks if developers put more
           | care into those ergonomics.
        
           | the_clarence wrote:
           | I personally never used any of these things back when I was a
           | student
        
           | Suppafly wrote:
           | >Physical books are still better than e-readers because you
           | can put sticky notes on the pages, jump back and forth
           | between pages quickly, and even start to know where pages are
           | simply based on how many leaves/pages are split between your
           | left and right hand.
           | 
           | Only because you prefer to work that way, someone that has
           | grown up with everything digital has equivalent skills doing
           | that stuff using tabs, digital sticky notes, bookmarks, and
           | such.
        
         | kccqzy wrote:
         | My high school doesn't use entire textbooks; it uses either
         | excerpts from a textbook or lecture notes produced by the
         | teacher. This solves the 30lb backpack problem nicely: you
         | realistically only bring the necessary notes or textbook
         | required for the last few days of instruction. Anything that's
         | earlier gets left behind at home because you won't need to
         | refer to it often.
        
           | silisili wrote:
           | Interesting. This is actually a pretty nice middleground. If
           | books were designed more like a binder of notebooks, perhaps
           | by chapter, it would solve the weight issue while still
           | allowing for all the things people love about paper books.
        
             | kccqzy wrote:
             | These days some textbooks are available as loose leaf
             | textbooks too.
        
           | fifilura wrote:
           | How do they handle copyright?
        
             | kccqzy wrote:
             | The teachers produced most of the lecture notes. The
             | textbooks excerpts were short and in hindsight must be
             | covered by fair use.
        
           | iforgot22 wrote:
           | We did this in high school. I kept forgetting what I had to
           | bring for all my textbook-based classes each day or what I
           | had to bring home, so I simply carried ~50lb of stuff
           | everywhere. That's ok cause I got swol. Some kids said this
           | was dumb, but they forgot stuff too.
        
         | duxup wrote:
         | Amen. My son's backpack is light as a feather.
         | 
         | I remember carrying my bag full, and still carrying books and
         | notebooks in my arms. It was horrible and I'd end up digging
         | through them to find things, not need it all ... not fun or
         | efficient.
        
         | chrisco255 wrote:
         | Carrying weight from books is good for you. Takes care of your
         | physical fitness and mental fitness.
        
           | dalke wrote:
           | If the bag is too heavy (especially if unbalanced, like
           | carrying it on one shoulder) then the kid can cause back
           | problems.
           | 
           | See https://scoliosisinstitute.com/heavy-backpacks/ for more
           | details.
        
             | ninalanyon wrote:
             | There is no excuse for schools being so badly organized
             | that this is a problem. It certainly was not a problem when
             | I was at school in the '60s and early '70s. All the books I
             | needed fitted in a briefcase. It also was not a big problem
             | for my children going to school in Norway between 1990 and
             | 2015.
             | 
             | But children should _also_ be taught how to carry backpacks
             | properly, not unbalanced on one shoulder.
        
               | dalke wrote:
               | I'm not disagreeing with you. But given silisili's lived
               | experience of dealing with 30lb backpacks, chrisco255's
               | statement about that being 'good for you' is simply not
               | correct, unless perhaps that kid is a high school
               | football player weighing 200+ lbs.
               | 
               | Also, only nerds and dweebs use both shoulder straps.
               | 
               | Rather, I don't think it's a simple matter of education,
               | given that there are also social pressures involved.
        
           | nfw2 wrote:
           | To a degree. I was tiny in school, always smallest kid in my
           | grade, and lugging 30 pounds of books around every day means
           | I now have scoliosis.
        
             | BurningFrog wrote:
             | I would call it "schooliosis" if I were you.
        
             | Suppafly wrote:
             | >and lugging 30 pounds of books around every day means I
             | now have scoliosis.
             | 
             | Doctors claim that heavy backpacks don't cause scoliosis,
             | but can make the associated back pain worse.
        
         | ToughKookie wrote:
         | This always seemed like a bad idea to me. I got done high
         | school right before laptops were provided in schools all over
         | the place. I never had one.
         | 
         | Are kids actually able to just get on social media on these
         | things? I figured they would be super restricted.
        
           | silisili wrote:
           | Depends on the school. Some are super locked down, and some
           | don't seem to care at all.
           | 
           | But kids are kids. For example, mine and her friends are
           | using a shared Google slides to drop memes and chat amongst
           | themselves. They always find a way :).
        
           | duxup wrote:
           | In my experience, when the kids had iPads or Chromebooks all
           | their traffic was routed through the school network and a web
           | filer.
           | 
           | Yeah you could in theory get around it and kids did
           | (generally to play minecraft), but social media was generally
           | well blocked, and all traffic monitored. It is made very
           | clear that these devices are NOT personal devices for
           | personal activity / they're monitoring them.
        
           | fn-mote wrote:
           | > Are kids actually able to just get on social media on these
           | things?
           | 
           | Where there's a will, there's a way.
           | 
           | I think the actual interest is in playing games. (IO games,
           | Minecraft online, etc.)
           | 
           | By the time they are old enough to be into social media (14+
           | years?), most here in the US have their own phones to provide
           | internet access.
        
           | georgebcrawford wrote:
           | Nowhere did they mention social media :-) but emails and
           | Teams work just fine - though one of my students mentioned
           | _they_ can 't initiate chats. I'm sure there's workarounds. I
           | just keep my students off laptops as much as possible.
           | 
           | Blocking games websites is like playing whack-a-mole. Our IT
           | dept took all of our Year 7 and 8 students out two classes at
           | a time, installing software or doing something to block a
           | raft of websites.
           | 
           | They were back playing Retrobowl etc a day later. It was
           | pretty funny.
        
         | krunck wrote:
         | And yet we want kids to get exercise in some way... When I was
         | a kid we walked to and from school with 40lb packs, uphill.
         | Both ways.
        
         | highcountess wrote:
         | The 30lb backpacks were only a function of our deranged
         | society, economy, and government. I am sure others here will be
         | able to attest that education in Europe not only was better for
         | reasons that cannot be openly discussed in our censorious
         | society, but the textbooks were denser with information that
         | was also better structured, while also being lighter in weight.
         | Lockers are simply not even a thing in Europe because children
         | are carrying less and they have standardized backpacks.
        
           | JadeNB wrote:
           | > education in Europe not only was better for reasons that
           | cannot be openly discussed in our censorious society
           | 
           | Huh?
        
           | apelapan wrote:
           | We had lockers in the European high school that I went to. As
           | I recall it was not allowed to bring backpacks into the
           | classroom, you were supposed to only bring the relevant items
           | to each class and keep the rest in your locker.
           | 
           | I don't think the combined weight of all books used in an
           | entire semester would add up to 30lb, maybe if including
           | dictionaries and atlases and other reference litteraturen
           | that was kept in each classroom (or carted around on trollies
           | by the teachers).
        
         | cynicalsecurity wrote:
         | Have you ever tried using e-reader? It's slow as hell. Slow in
         | turning the pages, slow in rendering anything that is not text.
         | Making notes functionality is a disaster. Sure, you can search
         | through text, but if it's PDF or images, you are screwed.
        
           | scythe wrote:
           | My advisor used a reMarkable 2 and loved it. I think that
           | there is a range of quality available.
        
         | IshKebab wrote:
         | Heavy backpacks full of textbooks are an American style of
         | education. There are other options between huge textbooks and
         | laptops.
        
         | scythe wrote:
         | Although I do agree that the idea of making a dumb ereader that
         | is specifically tailored to the educational environment sounds
         | like a cool hacking project, there's a _much_ simpler approach
         | that basically solves 90% of the problems: _just take the WiFi
         | card out!_
         | 
         | The problem here is not with electronic _textbooks_ per se, but
         | the pervasive adoption of networked applications for school
         | assignments -- which in turn is used to decrease grading time
         | so that schools can shove more students onto a single teacher.
        
         | Suppafly wrote:
         | >I definitely agree that just giving kids a laptop/chromebook
         | instead of books is not working.
         | 
         | I'm not really sure why people are pretending it's an either/or
         | situation. Plenty of things are taught just fine or better with
         | technology, but books still have a purpose.
         | 
         | >My own child and her friends just don't have the focus
         | required, and easily get distracted out to email, group chats,
         | everything else going on right next to the text.
         | 
         | That stuff is usually blocked or limited on school owned
         | laptops. If it's not your child's school is failing at
         | something that is very basic.
        
       | niborbit wrote:
       | love this
        
       | somethoughts wrote:
       | Not that this would be better but I'm surprised no ebook maker
       | has had success in the educational market. Eink seems like it'd
       | be great for education as it'd really only support text based
       | distractions/bullying which while bad is less bad than the
       | trifecta of video, images and text distractions/bullying. Its
       | also lighter and the battery is longer lasting than a laptop.
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | Being able to flip through a physical book is so much better
         | UX.
        
           | MathMonkeyMan wrote:
           | I've noticed this with my Kobo ereader (which I love). If I
           | want to go back a few pages, and then return to where I am
           | now, it's a whole ordeal. The UX is there, but I have to
           | learn it and remember it, and it's different for every device
           | (not that I use many different devices). All physical books,
           | miraculously, have the same UX.
           | 
           | The parent post to yours makes me think that a large e-ink
           | display would be useful in a school setting. Rather than
           | carry around a backpack of enormous overpriced textbooks that
           | we might use 30% of in a semester, just have one large
           | ereader that you can use from 1st grade through your PhD.
           | 
           | It's like a book, but lighter! And no internet, no games, no
           | social media, no animations. No private enterprise capturing
           | public education to sell schools a bunch of stupid shit. Just
           | an improvement on a stack of textbooks, which schools or
           | parents have always paid for. Might be nice.
        
         | fullstop wrote:
         | My daughter has a chromebook for school. As a device, it's
         | actually pretty nice and the administration aspects of it are
         | fantastic. It can be wiped and re-imaged easily, her "files"
         | are all stored on the network, and it's snappy. Except for PDF
         | viewing.
         | 
         | When it comes to PDFs, it sometimes really struggles. I think
         | that the device can handle them, but I'm pretty sure that the
         | PDFs themselves are often a collection of scanned images and
         | not text. Once she has more than a few tabs open, it takes
         | longer and longer to switch between them and she ends up using
         | a desktop to complete her work.
         | 
         | In this case, the school provides the tools for her to do her
         | assignments but we have the means to provide better ones at
         | home and not every child will have this advantage.
         | 
         | Personally, I can read data sheets all day on a monitor but I
         | absolutely can not do the same with fiction. I either need a
         | paper book or a Kindle, and I don't know why that is. Perhaps
         | it's because I am looking ahead and not down?
        
           | graemep wrote:
           | Even on slow devices the only problem I have had with PDFs
           | has been when they are rendered using the JS renderer.
           | 
           | The developer of pdf.js replied to my comments on performance
           | somewhere once, and I think it might have been HN, but was
           | quite happy to acknowledge (IIRC) that its not a high
           | performance solution.
        
             | fullstop wrote:
             | I'll have to look at it the next time she complains. It may
             | very well be pdf.js.
        
       | VyseofArcadia wrote:
       | Kudos to Sweden for responding to research.
        
       | NegatioN wrote:
       | I think books are the best medium for learning some things, and
       | probably in some aspects for writing.
       | 
       | However I'm worried some countries seem to be throwing the baby
       | out with the bathwater.
       | 
       | There are many things that are easier to learn with
       | computers/screens than without as well, they just need to fit the
       | medium. [0]
       | 
       | Intended as a reply, but the comment got deleted, so I might as
       | well include it here:
       | 
       | The article [0] is focused on homeschooling, so the exact points
       | listed there doesn't necessarily have a leg up on traditional
       | media (implying you're in the right environment to facilitate
       | learning these skills well without computers, which I don't think
       | most kids are).
       | 
       | One off-hand example [where screens can be better than a book],
       | would probably be using simulations to assist in learning
       | physics, instead of just solving the equation on a page. Things
       | where interactivity sets the learning in better context than a
       | book probably would.
       | 
       | I'm also very excited to try teaching our child math using apps
       | like DragonBox, which seems to allow for much easier
       | visualization of how to solve equations than I got at school. [1]
       | 
       | 0: https://www.fast.ai/posts/2024-10-29-screen-time/
       | 
       | 1: https://dragonbox.com/products/algebra-5
        
       | hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
       | Personally, I would hate this. As a student I far preferred PDFs,
       | etc. because I could quickly make Anki cards out of them, strip
       | mine them for insights and good practice problems and then just
       | burn them into my long term memory over the next few months. We
       | should be teaching children about spaced repetition systems and
       | helping them instill the one habit actually proven to help them
       | remember what they learn, not banishing them back to the
       | Carboniferous Era!
       | 
       | EDIT: I'm getting downvoted, and I stand by what I said. :) Your
       | kid's inability to focus should not be the reason my kid can no
       | longer remember his material. That's a separate problem which can
       | be solved with an approach as simple as "turn off the modem".
        
         | pwillia7 wrote:
         | Nah -- the schools should teach to the average student and
         | address the average problems. I don't begrudge the school
         | system for not catering to me when I went through it.
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | Schools need to teach everyone basic skills for life in
           | society. Whatever those are. In lower grades that is about
           | the same for everyone, but as you move on schools need to
           | push kids to where they will do well. I took metal shop in
           | school, but I was always on the college track and so this was
           | just a fun class I only took because I have one block that
           | nothing else fit in - for all other kids in that class it was
           | essential to their future life and they knew it.
        
           | graemep wrote:
           | No one is really average. Even people who are average overall
           | are not average in every skill and every subject. /classroom
           | This is an intrinsic problem with classroom teaching. There
           | is an HN discussion about home education (or "homeschooling"
           | as people misleadingly call it) at the moment...
        
           | hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
           | The average student shouldn't be expected to remember more
           | than 5% of what they learn through school because teaching
           | them to use a computer program for half an hour is too hard?
           | That's bleak.
        
         | fn-mote wrote:
         | Downvotes should not be for disagreeing with content!!
        
           | add-sub-mul-div wrote:
           | I suppose it depends on how you think of free speech:
           | 
           | 1. Free speech means I should be able to say anything (or in
           | this case vote in any manner) that's legal, and that's the
           | only consideration.
           | 
           | 2. Free speech is a foundation for a higher level goal of a
           | society that also values etiquette, respect, and discretion.
        
           | hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
           | I don't begrudge them for downvoting. They are, nonetheless,
           | wrong in their belief that a return to printed books makes
           | long term sense.
        
           | cooper_ganglia wrote:
           | That is quite literally what they are for!
        
         | golly_ned wrote:
         | What would stop a kid from doing the same with physical books
         | rather than PDFs?
        
           | hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
           | You can't screenshot a physical book nearly as easily as a
           | PDF. That's an issue for making flashcards out of a whole
           | host of useful informational visuals, not to mention stuff
           | that is just plain hard to communicate in plain text.
        
         | alkonaut wrote:
         | > Your kid's inability to focus should not be the reason my kid
         | can no longer remember his material.
         | 
         | The books are brought back (at a cost) _because_ the kids have
         | proven to learn better from books, or a mix of mediums. They
         | haven 't, and won't, use only physical or only digital
         | material. They'll use a mix.
        
           | hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
           | You need to measure long term remembrance of the material,
           | not short-term learning. A 5% increase in the speed of
           | children learning a fact for the first time doesn't matter if
           | the fact has disappeared from all their brains 6 months
           | later, but to accomplish the latter at scale, there's no
           | substitute - you _need_ some kind of spaced repetition
           | system. Otherwise you may as well have not taught the fact at
           | all, and let them spend the time having fun or getting some
           | exercise instead.
        
             | alkonaut wrote:
             | I have no idea what the actual science referenced here is
             | on this but I'm sure whatever they used to convince people
             | to spend that much money is based on science that isn't
             | just "the tests go better" but actually "the learning is
             | better".
             | 
             | And spaced repetition has been part of education since
             | forever hasn't it. Yes it's slightly easier with a PDF. But
             | you'd have to assume they thought of that too...
        
       | impossiblefork wrote:
       | I didn't actually know we'd switched to computers. I knew there
       | was a party, 'Liberalerna' that was for it, arguing for a kind of
       | naive general digitalisation etc. but I always assumed it was too
       | crazy to be implemented, so I'm very happy with this.
        
       | Haddocken wrote:
       | There isn't a single source in that article.
        
         | Animats wrote:
         | Right. This was announced back in 2023.[1] Somehow it showed up
         | in India Defense Review recently.
         | 
         | It's for preschoolers. The announced goal was to "completely
         | end digital learning for children under age 6".
         | 
         | [1] https://apnews.com/article/sweden-digital-education-
         | backlash...
        
           | dang wrote:
           | OK, we've changed the URL to that above. Thanks!
           | 
           | Submitted URL was
           | https://indiandefencereview.com/in-2009-sweden-chose-to-
           | repl.... The same story (and even the same article text)
           | shows up on a bunch of other sites too: https://www.google.co
           | m/search?q=Sweden%20is%20investing%20%E.... Usually it's
           | pretty easy to sift out the blogspam and find the original
           | but I was at a loss in this case.
        
       | throw0101c wrote:
       | Is cursive (hand) writing still taught?
       | 
       | The province of Ontario brought it back in the curriculum for
       | example:
       | 
       | * https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/cursive-writing-ontar...
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | It is a political thing as much as anything. Some old people
         | feel they learned it so it must be good and therefore kids
         | today must learn it. Same with "new math" - I didn't learn this
         | way it must be wrong, go back to the way I was taught since I
         | know math. At no point is anyone asking if the new way is
         | better or not. Nor are we asking if maybe the skill is obsolete
         | and not worth learning. Or maybe it is a niche skill that most
         | won't need and we are better off spending time with something
         | else (like going to the playground). There are probably other
         | good points to debate as well, but generally it comes down to
         | old people teaching what they learned.
         | 
         | I do come down against teaching it. But then I never could read
         | my own writing and am mad about all the trouble I got into in
         | school for it (I have to credit the one teacher who did realize
         | I wasn't lazy and tried to get experts to help me - but
         | dysgraphia wouldn't exist for several more years so nothing
         | came of his attempt). However I'm not clear if manual writing
         | is obsolete for everyone or just me. Right note typing is a
         | useful skill, but text to speech is making progress so maybe in
         | a few years nobody will type and so teaching that skill was
         | wasted.
         | 
         | My school spent a lot of effort teaching me WordPerfect because
         | that is what industry used. A complete waste of time that I
         | never used again. Anyone care to guess what will be useful or
         | not?
        
           | pwillia7 wrote:
           | What is new math
        
             | bawolff wrote:
             | It was a curriculum reform in the united states in the 60s
             | that emphasized introducing abstract math concepts very
             | early.
        
               | pwillia7 wrote:
               | I found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math
        
             | Octoth0rpe wrote:
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Math
             | 
             | My 2 cents, valid criticisms of new math are _vastly_
             | outnumbered by ones more in the form of "I wasn't taught
             | that way and so my kids shouldn't be either" / any change
             | is bad change type thinking. There is a lot of overlap in
             | these criticisms with common core (
             | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core ) which isn't
             | particularly related.
        
               | fullstop wrote:
               | My kids learned it this way, and it was somewhat useful
               | to show that we could arrive at the same solution using
               | different methods.
        
           | bawolff wrote:
           | > Same with "new math" - I didn't learn this way it must be
           | wrong, go back to the way I was taught since I know math. At
           | no point is anyone asking if the new way is better or not.
           | 
           | I mean, i think feneyman did have something to say about if
           | it was better or not, and why.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | Lots of people weighed in. The vast majority knew nothing
             | about how kids learn or what is valuable. (this is on both
             | sides of the debate, and there of course has been a lot of
             | advancement in education in the 50-60 years since)
        
           | throw0101a wrote:
           | > _It is a political thing as much as anything. Some old
           | people feel they learned it so it must be good and therefore
           | kids today must learn it._
           | 
           | Some evidence to indicate it is useful:
           | 
           | * https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/the-athletes-
           | way/202...
        
         | bawolff wrote:
         | I dont think i have ever used cursive outside of the class
         | teaching me cursive.
         | 
         | I think the problem is that modern ball point pens dont glide
         | well, making it not a useful way to write.
        
           | graemep wrote:
           | Some people like handwriting notes. I know some that do that
           | on tablets rather than paper though.
           | 
           | I have terrible handwriting so type whenever possible.
           | 
           | The only thing my kids have needed handwriting for (i.e. they
           | did not have the option of typing) has been exams.
        
             | bawolff wrote:
             | I feel like most of my peers took handwritten notes, but
             | most of them didn't write them in cursive (some did)
        
             | watwut wrote:
             | You do not have to use cursive for handwriting notes. What
             | happens with young people (based on what teachers in my
             | kids school said) is that they abandon cursive for
             | handwriting the moment they can - and everyone basically
             | invents own way of writing letters.
             | 
             | End result is worst then if they were taught handwriting
             | that is not cursive, looks more like printed text and is
             | easier to read and write.
        
           | lawn wrote:
           | I write cursive all the time and I've never had a problem
           | with any pen, new or old.
        
           | beezlebroxxxxxx wrote:
           | Aside from very occasional drops into printing, I exclusively
           | write in cursive. Once you get proficient you can write very
           | fast with cursive -- regardless of the pen/pencil. Can other
           | people read my writing? Yes, if I slow down. But if it's
           | notes for me, then I can go easily double the speed I have
           | with printing and it feels as "seamless" as touch typing.
        
       | dr_dshiv wrote:
       | To support paper-digital integration, we created
       | https://www.smartpaperapp.com/
       | 
       | It's not special paper--it's just a computer vision system to
       | help teacher easily convert student work on paper to digital
       | marks. The state of Rajasthan in India uses this product to
       | assess math and literacy for 5 million students each year.
       | 
       | At a personal level, I'm frustrated by son's school that uses a
       | digital LMS to have teachers assign jpgs of pages of the books. I
       | find it hard to help him because I don't know what he has done
       | and what he will do--something that a book makes natural. At the
       | same time, I'm a fan of cognitive tutors and other digital
       | instructional materials. Balance is good!
        
       | dalke wrote:
       | My eldest doesn't like the computers they have in grade 2 (in
       | Sweden). He thinks the things installed on them are too boring
       | and easy. He would rather read books.
       | 
       | Thing is, the school doesn't have a staff librarian any more. As
       | I understand it, they got rid of that position as part of the
       | cost shifting to switch to digital.
        
         | georgebcrawford wrote:
         | This is so upsetting to hear. The librarians at my school are
         | amazing. The students don't know how good they have it, but us
         | teachers certainly do.
        
           | dalke wrote:
           | I weep a little inside every time I pass the unstaffed school
           | library.
        
       | Barrin92 wrote:
       | Apart from learning I'd also like to see more research into the
       | effect switching to digital devices had on tactile skills. I used
       | to mentor at a makerspace a few years ago and at least
       | anecdotally, younger people seemed to have what we in Germany
       | call "two left hands" (don't know if that's an English idiom
       | too).
       | 
       | At least to me it seemed like there's a real loss of fine motor
       | skills. Digital devices are pretty impoverished interfaces. Even
       | if I compare my own handwriting to my parents, who learned
       | cursive more seriously and wrote more by hand I feel like my
       | penmanship is just worse.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | > I feel like my penmanship is just worse.
         | 
         | You cannot learn everything. Is good penmanship worth spending
         | time on? What are the other options. What if I gave you (8 year
         | old you, your parents when you were 8, and you today - I want
         | all 3 answers) a choice: you can learn cursive, piano, or go
         | out to the playground. What is the best use of your time? My
         | parents would have selected cursive, but on hindsight I can say
         | it was a waste of my time. I always wished I could play piano
         | (this is why I put piano in the list - there are millions of
         | other options you can teach a 8 year old that we do not), but
         | playground time is also valuable and would have appealed to me
         | as a kid.
        
           | Barrin92 wrote:
           | Sure fair enough, I wasn't trying to narrowly hone in on
           | writing, if you want to make the case for more instrumental
           | education I'm on board with that too. And someone recently
           | actually asked me "where have all the high school bands
           | gone?". It seems like (passive) digital entertainment is
           | eating into all of these activities.
           | 
           | I'm just broadly in favor of incorporating physical
           | development, because who knows what it does to your brain if
           | all you do is push buttons on a screen, as I said anecdotally
           | I don't think anything good. The easy thing to writing about
           | me is that you can basically incorporate it for free. People
           | learning Kanji or math on paper, for one is likely better for
           | retention but also even cheaper practically. As far as I can
           | tell buying students tablets just cost a bunch of money.
        
       | submeta wrote:
       | I went fully digital some years ago, gave away most of my printed
       | books and bought ebooks only. Now I have my whole library in
       | Calibre and on my Kindle. Why? Because I have my whole library
       | with me. And I can download my highlights and process them. Into
       | notes in Obsidian, that I can link to in my study notes.
       | 
       | Recently I started buying paper based books again. Man, I missed
       | holding physical books in my hands. And I start to regret having
       | gotten rid of my physical library. There were so many memories I
       | had with most of these books. I remember their covers, and
       | instantly my emotions , thoughts, feelings are triggered. I don't
       | have these emotions when I think of my digital books.
       | 
       | My spouse has books that she was gifted when she was a child.
       | Still in our kids shelf. I cannot give her my digital books.
       | 
       | I regret the decision having gone fully digital, which can only
       | be a complement to physical books.
       | 
       | Printed books are a physical experience. Something that allows me
       | to attach thoughts, emotions, feelings to it. And they can become
       | part of my life. Like a good friend.
        
         | tikkabhuna wrote:
         | I'd love to have bundles where you can get the physical and
         | ebook at the same time. Going on holiday it is ideal to have an
         | ebook reader to carry many books, but, like you say, there is
         | something precious about having books lined up on shelves to
         | see them.
        
           | mistahchris wrote:
           | Yes! A physical book and ebook bundle would be awesome.
        
         | mistahchris wrote:
         | I did the exact same thing. I'm back to buying real books, but
         | I will say I still use my ereader in situations without good
         | lighting or where the book is just too cumbersome. Sometimes
         | that means I get the book twice which is suboptimal, but I
         | strongly prefer the reading experience of a physical book. My
         | appreciation of the work is even higher when the reading
         | experience is better.
        
         | graemep wrote:
         | I will not buy DRMed ebooks. I hate the idea that someone can
         | delete a book I bought. Once I have a book, I want to keep it.
         | 
         | I have quite a lot of books that belong to be grandfather, and
         | lots that belonged to my parents. A lot of those will last
         | another generation, maybe more. That does not happen with
         | ebooks either.
        
           | galleywest200 wrote:
           | It is trivially easy to remove DRM with a plugin for Calibre.
        
             | protonbob wrote:
             | Not with the latest encryption. Although you can always
             | screenshot and ocr. Or maybe I've missed something new.
        
               | EA-3167 wrote:
               | Unless latest means "In the last few months" then no it's
               | still trivial. I buy a lot of "Kindle" books, but I
               | always rip the DRM and make an ebook version I actually
               | use and archive. My attitude is that once I pay for a
               | song/game/book/etc... it's no one's business, but my own
               | how I use it (for myself I mean, obviously uploading it
               | to others is a different issue).
        
           | fullstop wrote:
           | eBooks can be backed up and survive a house fire or a flood,
           | though.
        
             | thih9 wrote:
             | Depends where the house fire or a flood is. If it's in a
             | data center then they might suddenly disappear[1].
             | 
             | [1]:
             | https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/analysis/ovhcloud-
             | fire...
        
               | lowdownbutter wrote:
               | If only we had more than one datacenter.
        
               | maksimur wrote:
               | You can keep multiple copies in different locations.
        
             | dowager_dan99 wrote:
             | the challenge is I don't love my books for the content, but
             | for their essence, so ebooks just aren't as valuable. If my
             | physically books were destroyed in a fire I would be sad
             | because i lost the objects, not temporarily lost access to
             | the contents.
        
           | bluGill wrote:
           | On that note, does anyone have a copy of "The C programing
           | language" (first edition) that isn't falling apart because
           | the acid paper is decaying? I was referring to my copy the
           | other day and it is clear the days I own that book are
           | numbered because of planned obsolesce in the 1970s. I never
           | bought the second edition, but if I did I'm sure it too would
           | be falling apart from age before my likely death.
        
             | tartoran wrote:
             | First edition may be collectible regardless of condition.
             | And as well as newer editions it is resalable. Can you sell
             | an used ebook you bought? How about can you buy an used
             | ebook?
        
               | bluGill wrote:
               | I don't have it because it is collectable. I have it
               | because it is a great book and I still refer to it once
               | in a while. (mostly I can find what I need on the web,
               | but once in a while what K&R really said is important -
               | though mostly for online arguments)
        
             | dokyun wrote:
             | I got a lightly used copy off Amazon, along with "The UNIX
             | programming environment" a year or two ago, probably.
             | They're both fine with only a bit of wear, but I don't
             | think they were ever of a super sturdy binding that would
             | hold up well under heavy abuse.
        
           | op00to wrote:
           | I buy books and immediately rip the drm out. They get their
           | money, I get my book.
        
         | fcsp wrote:
         | I'm jojoing on this for at least 15 years at this point. I
         | really appreciate the physical experience of real books, the
         | smell, the weight, just as you describe it. At the same time I
         | really despise the storage space they take up, collecting dust,
         | never to be touched again. So I go full digital for a while and
         | read books on my Scribe. I get decision paralysis really
         | quickly because of all the content available at a finger press,
         | but the note taking and accessibility of it all are really
         | nice. But after a while I grow tired of this and buy some
         | hardcover books again and really enjoy that.
         | 
         | This cycle has been repeating for me for a long time, I wonder
         | if I'll find a good balance eventually. My current approach is
         | to try and read more technical stuff digital while keeping
         | novels, the humanities, history as paperback, we'll see.
        
         | sitkack wrote:
         | I understand your pain, we all seem to make dichotomies where
         | none should exist.
         | 
         | Getting rid of print books is not a prerequisite for carrying
         | your entire library with you. Why not both meme.
         | 
         | Hopefully ebooks will get to the point where they offer a
         | _better_ experience than paper books. But my mind does not
         | handle the information in nearly the same way when using
         | ebooks. I find them wonderfully valuable and productive, but in
         | the same deep introspective way. They are transactional,
         | focused and very task directed.
        
           | watwut wrote:
           | I ebooks better for reading already. Physical books advantage
           | is that I can read inside them in bookstore - bookstores are
           | much better for me when I looking for something new.
           | 
           | But I prefer actual reading on the phone.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | Are you reading, or are you studying? When reading my phone
             | is great. When I want to study though I will want to take
             | notes, compare tables on different pages and other such
             | things that my phone doesn't work for.
        
               | watwut wrote:
               | I actually prefer ebook for both - including for
               | studying. If the book I want to study requires larger
               | screen, I prefer notebook. I never wrote into books, if I
               | am taking notes it is on paper and sometimes
               | electronically (with keyboard).
               | 
               | For comparing tables, I prefer laptop.
        
         | fullstop wrote:
         | My wife donated all of her CDs and subsequently started buying
         | the same albums on iTunes. I still don't know why.
        
           | nytesky wrote:
           | That bothers me less, as finding a device to play CD music is
           | very hard and expensive now.
           | 
           | Also the CDs will degrade in another decade to worthlessness,
           | unlike books
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | Pressed CDs - which most of them are (pressing is much
             | cheaper in quantity) will generally last well. Record able
             | CDs (like you buy from the individual artist won't last
             | much longer.
             | 
             | Either way though I have long since ripped my CDs to my NAS
             | system. I keep the CDs in storage so if someone says
             | copyright I can prove fair use as I still own the media.
        
             | GuestFAUniverse wrote:
             | I have a whole drawer full of barely used cdrom drives from
             | decommissioned office PCs to play my audio discs, in case
             | my Philips Player from 1995 is worn down -- didn't even
             | need a repair yet, so no real worries... Additionally the
             | CDs get backuped as FLACs.
             | 
             | I don't see what's "hard" with that approach. Most new
             | releases still get presses as CDs.
        
           | DaiPlusPlus wrote:
           | Was this recently (say, after 2014?) Try finding a computer
           | with an optical drive today. You need to get an external USB
           | device today, modern cases don't have external 5-inch bays.
           | 
           | Another problem is all the music apps and services that we're
           | _supposed to use_ according to the music industry are
           | streaming services: Spotify doesn't have a CD-player feature;
           | it wouldn't surprise me if today's new-computer-user had no
           | idea that CD-ripping was even possible.
        
             | fullstop wrote:
             | It was before 2014 and we still had ways of either playing
             | optical content or ripping the media and storing it
             | ourselves.
        
           | torcete wrote:
           | I just recently discovered navidrome
           | https://www.navidrome.org
           | 
           | I converted all my old CDs to ogg and installed navidrome on
           | my home server. Basically, now I have my own personal
           | spotify.
           | 
           | I am aware though that this solution won't work for
           | everybody.
        
             | fullstop wrote:
             | Too late, the library has all of the discs now. :-)
             | 
             | She could borrow them all back, one at a time, and re-build
             | the library.
        
         | myko wrote:
         | I went this route as well, and I've now repopulated many of my
         | favorite books from my youth in physical editions. I wish more
         | physical books were like Goodman Games where any purchase
         | includes a digital download code.
         | 
         | Regretfully, I still prefer generally reading on my Kindle, so
         | I end up buying two copies of the book.
        
         | bowsamic wrote:
         | The real question is why did you feel the need to be so
         | extreme? Why couldn't you just do a little digital rather than
         | fully? I don't understand this all or nothing stuff. Live
         | moderately
        
         | brtkdotse wrote:
         | > Now I have my whole library in Calibre and on my Kindle.
         | 
         | Funnily enough I'm contemplating buying a MiniDisc player since
         | my music listening has gone way down since Spotify came along.
         | 
         | Its like the abdunance of selection is overwhelming.
        
         | darknavi wrote:
         | I really enjoy audio books much more than reading (perhaps it
         | helps me feed my need to "consume", as I can listen to them
         | while doing other, menial things) but I also enjoy buying the
         | same titles and filling out a physical book shelf.
         | 
         | I love the visual appraisal of a library a lot more in person
         | than on a screen.
        
           | dowager_dan99 wrote:
           | I never got hooked on audio books, even back in the "on tape"
           | days. So slow and I have trouble visualizing and immersing
           | myself in them.
        
             | darknavi wrote:
             | The narrator absolutely makes or breaks a book. I find my
             | self more often following narrators versus following
             | authors, which is crazy to say.
             | 
             | If you want to give a narrator a shot, Ray Porter is super
             | solid. Lots of cool sci-fi books out there that he
             | narrates.
        
         | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
         | Physical has a spatial dimension that digital cannot replicate.
         | Like I can't tell ya what page something is on but I can find
         | it quickly by feel.
         | 
         | Something is lost by moving to digital but what? By what
         | metric?
        
           | w00ds wrote:
           | Exactly that which is not amenable to metrics...
        
         | zem wrote:
         | I'm kind of the opposite, I can't bring myself to let go of my
         | collection of paper books, or even to stop buying a new one
         | every so often, but I do not like the physical experience of
         | reading one nearly as much as I like the experience of reading
         | on a phone or kindle. holding a book in one hand and turning a
         | page with a click is a really wonderful way to read.
        
           | jhbadger wrote:
           | Exactly. I've even gone to the trouble of getting ebooks of
           | physical books that I have in some cases. I vastly prefer the
           | size and weight of an e-reader as compared to most books,
           | plus the ability to change the font size to something I can
           | easier read as opposed to the small fonts often chosen by
           | paper books to minimize pages.
        
           | tsujamin wrote:
           | The standard I arrived at is roughly "would I be sad if, in
           | 15 years, I forgot about this book/piece of music?". If it's
           | something that I enjoyed so much today that I'd be afraid to
           | lose it amongst 10,000's of eBooks or songs on a streaming
           | platform, I physically buy it.
        
         | OJFord wrote:
         | > I regret the decision having gone fully digital, which can
         | only be a complement to physical books.
         | 
         | I've long thought the purchase of a book should be considered a
         | _licence_ : you pay a little more if you want a physical
         | version too, but they're not separate things; the digital ebook
         | comes free/is the basic way your licence can be exercised.
         | 
         | (Ideally licenced people would be allowed to order cheap
         | replacements if they damaged the physical copy, but how would
         | you stop fraudulent sale & continual replacement-ordering.)
        
         | globular-toast wrote:
         | I read all fiction on my Kobo these days. I used to collect
         | paperbacks but they take up a lot of space, especially if
         | you're getting through 20+ books a year. I basically hoard
         | books on my Kobo so I never don't have another book to read.
         | 
         | I do remove the DRM, though. I still want to own books.
         | 
         | But paper is still by far the best format for textbooks. It's
         | not even close.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | I have a library of work-related books (military). Most of the
         | great ones have no digital alternative. Authors of rare or
         | definitive works know to avoid digital formats. Last year I
         | paid 200+ to get my hands on a newly printed book because i
         | know it will still be relevant on my shelf in 10/20/30 years.
         | After reading it once I may leave it on that shelf for years.
         | One day i will need it again. I will know where to find it no
         | matter what OS i will then be using.
         | 
         | Things like this cannot be bought digitally, nor would most
         | readers want a digital copy.
         | http://www.hisutton.com/pages/Book%20project.html
         | 
         | I cannot champion this guy enough. His website belongs jn the
         | 90s (it needs the "www") but his skills in open source analysis
         | and drawing are unmatched. (He draws in MS paint!)
         | 
         | http://www.hisutton.com/
         | 
         | https://youtu.be/PdKkR_lbLN0
        
         | dowager_dan99 wrote:
         | I just love the experience of reading a paper book, especially
         | in trade paperback - which is weird because it's not a great
         | format, but something about the dimensions (as long as the book
         | isn't too long), and the cover and the feel and the paper...
        
         | jjice wrote:
         | I love a paper back, but man did I fall in love with ebooks in
         | the last year and a half. I own a Kindle and a Kobo and it's
         | just so incredible for traveling (instead of carrying two books
         | in my backpack) and in bed (the screen backlights are just
         | fantastic).
         | 
         | I absolutely buy certain books physical still, if they're of a
         | certain quality or meaning to me. If Martin Fowler released a
         | new book tomorrow, I'd get it physical. Hell, I might even buy
         | a physical and digital copy.
         | 
         | That said, digital is now my default way to read a book.
        
         | NoboruWataya wrote:
         | And let's be honest, a good book collection is a great addition
         | to a room, aesthetically. People tend not to talk about that
         | aspect, I think they worry about being seen as pretentious
         | showing off their books. But I think a book collection can be a
         | great decoration, just as flowers or a painting can be.
         | 
         | And if you have family or friends over and one of them sees
         | something they like, you can lend it to them there and then (if
         | you are so inclined). Some of my earliest reading-related
         | memories are being in an uncle's or neighbour's house and being
         | fascinated by a book on a shelf that they kindly let me take
         | home to read.
        
           | djhn wrote:
           | And they improve room acoustics a decent amount, making the
           | space that much more pleasant.
        
             | Obscurity4340 wrote:
             | Are books like a natural version of those fancy futuristic
             | sound panels in recording studios?
        
         | Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
         | I'm an avid reader. But about maybe 15 years ago, I stopped
         | buying printed books because I felt guilty - they took up too
         | much space, and it was running scarce. And surely ebooks were
         | superior - no space wasted, I could take an entire library with
         | me, etc. It was just a matter of getting used to them, and
         | abandoning the impractical romanticism of fetishizing the
         | printed page.
         | 
         | At that time, I pretty much stopped reading. Now it's obvious
         | why that happened, but at that point I didn't really connect
         | the dots. I thought that I ran into a bad streak of books that
         | just didn't hook me much, and then I was very busy, I always
         | seemed to have something else to do rather than continue
         | reading. So for those hypothetical reasons I went from reading
         | several books per month to one per year, or even less.
         | 
         | At some point, I read a printed book and it hooked me like in
         | the old times. And then, it dawned on me that the books being
         | bad, or me being busy, were just excuses. The real reason is
         | that I didn't like electronic reading. I wasn't proud of this.
         | It wasn't a rational attitude. Electronic reading was clearly
         | superior (less space, more flexibility and so on), and the
         | content was exactly the same. I was actually quite ashamed of
         | myself: was I such a shallow person that I didn't appreciate
         | the contents of the literature enough to abstract away from
         | purely materialistic concerns? What kind of person can't
         | appreciate culture or art just because they don't like the
         | medium used to transmit it? But be that as it may, the plain
         | truth was that ebooks didn't hook me, and physical books did,
         | so I admitted it and started buying printed books again. And
         | once again, I'm an avid reader.
         | 
         | In the last few years, papers and studies have started to
         | appear saying that with paper reading we retain more, we
         | concentrate more, we learn more, etc... so I have started to
         | reconcile with myself. Maybe I'm not a shallow materialistic
         | asshole after all, and it's just human nature.
        
       | carlhjerpe wrote:
       | This shows how thoughtful our politicians are, they're shooting
       | from the hip at best. It's just dumb luck we haven't fucked up
       | more than we have, and that we have natural resources to lean on
       | (Iron, wood, water).
       | 
       | Everything is over budget, nobody is accountable and
       | psychological wellbeing is way down the drain.
        
         | carlhjerpe wrote:
         | My point being that politicians were going "ooh computers are
         | good, let's slap a computer onto everything", but then only
         | where they can bikeshed computers into the system as it seems
         | easy at first (education). But without national guidelines to
         | make it good, and no guidelines for medical IT and friends. It
         | seems like Estonia "did computers right" more than Sweden.
        
       | fn-mote wrote:
       | I'm unclear if this is a real article.
       | 
       | It claims to be published in 2025 but it refers to 2022-2025 in
       | the future tense.
       | 
       | > [...] Sweden's putting 104 million euros into bringing books
       | back into classrooms from 2022 to 2025
       | 
       | See the comment identifying a legitimate source:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42716448
        
         | Suppafly wrote:
         | Plus 104 million euros seems like a normal amount of money to
         | spend updating the curriculum for an entire country. This is
         | likely just updating the curriculum over a few years from older
         | books to newer ones and basically unrelated to the divide
         | between laptops and printed books.
        
       | greekanalyst wrote:
       | Physical reading/writing >> Digital reading/writing
        
       | illwrks wrote:
       | I can't speak for everyone else, but in the same vein I've dusted
       | off my old iPod as well... no distractions, popups or
       | subscriptions - divine.
        
         | MathMonkeyMan wrote:
         | I replaced the battery in my second hand first generation iPod
         | maybe three times over ten years.
         | 
         | Then for a number of years I used a late generation Zune that I
         | got new at Walmart for a steal.
         | 
         | Now I use Spotify on a smart phone, and it's a slow web app
         | full of ads, delayed page reloads, unnecessary videos, and a
         | buggy seek widget. The only controls are a touch screen.
         | 
         | It is convenient to have my music player in the same device
         | as... wait, all I wanted was a music player.
        
       | torcete wrote:
       | I "discovered" libraries. They are cool! They usually offer more
       | services than just books. But you have plenty of books that you
       | don't need to keep after having read them, and the trip to the
       | library is like a discovery journey.
       | 
       | Even more, my library also has comics and comic books. These are
       | usually quite expensive, and now I can just read them for free.
        
         | SpaceToast wrote:
         | I recently learned that my library has 3D printers for anyone
         | to use, and microfilm of local newspapers going back to 1797;
         | it really is incredible what you can discover in them!
        
       | skirge wrote:
       | I read a lot of books while being at primary and secondary school
       | and most of my colleagues didn't, they had other things to do.
       | Now I read on Kindle and others watch Netflix or scroll Facebook.
       | Form of the book is not a root cause of the problem.
        
       | AcerbicZero wrote:
       | I'm 95% sure my college would have just handed me a degree after
       | the first quarter if they'd let me type my essays instead of
       | writing them by hand.
        
       | battkajs wrote:
       | This comment was responding to the original link
        
         | miltonlost wrote:
         | You think the Associated Press and its website is AI? The
         | Associated Press that has been in existence for decades? The
         | article does have sources in it, AND links to the website you
         | link to!
         | 
         | Your writing style is also very LLMy... I think you're AI, and
         | not hiding it well.
        
           | battkajs wrote:
           | I was replying to the original link:
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42716448
           | 
           | And I am not a native English speaker hence my language is
           | AI-ish from my translation tools
        
       | ddingus wrote:
       | Good.
       | 
       | Tactile thinking remains quite useful and having the basic motor
       | skills translates into manufacturing, the arts, and more of life
       | than many may realize.
       | 
       | Early in my life, I began to "calibrate" my perception. I call it
       | the "eyecrometer"
       | 
       | Today, I can call out sizes, distances, speeds, feeds and more to
       | fairly high accuracy a majority of the time. It has paid off in
       | manufacturing and prototyping more times than I can count.
       | 
       | This all starts with the basics:
       | 
       | Read it, hear it, see it, feel it, do it, say it.
       | 
       | A younger coworker has began a similar journey. And they just
       | started a robotics group on it too.
       | 
       | Be digital. It helps. It has power, but don't trade your
       | potential for the love of trees.
       | 
       | Augment said potential instead.
        
       | shw1n wrote:
       | One belief I have is that a major lifehack in a digital world is
       | making things as physical as possible.
       | 
       | Spend all day at a computer? Get a mechanical keyboard so every
       | keystroke is satisfying.
       | 
       | Learn keyboard shortcuts so you're on the mouse less.
       | 
       | Find yourself frequently turning something on/off via your phone?
       | Get a physical button and map it -- e.g. physical volume knob
       | 
       | Gotta mock something up or understand a codebase? Physical draw
       | it in a notebook
       | 
       | Got a dense book to read? Buy the print copy and go somewhere
       | without a phone
       | 
       | Obviously costs more money and space, but anything I can offload
       | to a 'spatial' part of my brain is welcome these days
        
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