[HN Gopher] Home Loss File System
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Home Loss File System
        
       Author : borski
       Score  : 373 points
       Date   : 2025-01-14 17:54 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (docs.google.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (docs.google.com)
        
       | ahazred8ta wrote:
       | A spreadsheet tool with guidance on what to do before and after
       | the catastrophic loss of your house, and what information to
       | collect.
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | > _This tool was created by former California wildfire survivors
       | committed to supporting you through the challenging process of
       | disaster recovery. We hope to provide essential resources,
       | checklists, and organizational tools to help you manage insurance
       | claims, document losses, and track expenses efficiently. By
       | staying organized, you hope you can regain a sense of control
       | during this difficult time. We are truly sorry for your loss and
       | hope this tool offers clarity, support, and empowerment as you
       | move forward on your path to recovery._
        
       | Titan2189 wrote:
       | You have to remove "/htmlview" from the URL, otherwise the "File
       | > Make a copy" interface is not available
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Fixed now... I think. If not please let us know!
        
           | TheCapeGreek wrote:
           | Still opened in HTML view for me
        
             | dang wrote:
             | Does anyone know what the URL should be to get the right
             | effect?
        
               | ars wrote:
               | The current URL works for me.
        
               | culi wrote:
               | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TPeJzW5pa-
               | BiJZjuEa1y...
        
               | dang wrote:
               | Current URL is that plus ?usp=sharing. Not sure whether
               | it's better to cut that query string or keep it.
        
         | culi wrote:
         | Thank you, I was wondering about this. For anyone else that's
         | curious, the original URL looked like
         | 
         | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TPeJzW5pa-BiJZjuEa1y...
         | 
         | I didn't know /htmlview was a feature of Google Sheets. neat
        
       | DrRossNelson wrote:
       | Thanks Borski for sharing the link for the Home Loss File System
       | - Digital Resource that my family has been working on.
       | 
       | Were continuing to work to get the word out about this and the
       | physical file boxes were creating for folks who are not tech
       | savvy (homelossfilesystem.com).
       | 
       | We've disseminated 2700 of the physical file boxes to fire
       | survivors over the last 15 years and excited about what the
       | digital resource can become.
       | 
       | We welcome contributors/volunteers/suggestions/feedback - feel
       | free to add them here or email us homelossfilesystem@gmail.com
       | 
       | The GoFundMe is 65% the way to its goal. If you wish you
       | contribute you can here: https://www.gofundme.com/f/help-us-
       | deliver-mor-1500-home-los...
       | 
       | Thanks again all! Please continue to share with any fire
       | survivors!
        
         | DrRossNelson wrote:
         | Also here is the link again for the Digital Resource:
         | 
         | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TPeJzW5pa-BiJZjuEa1y...
        
         | kylehotchkiss wrote:
         | What an awesome awesome way to make light of what you've gone
         | through. This is gonna help so many people in LA!
         | 
         | (Also hi from just a little bit up the 15 if you're still in
         | scripps ranch :))
        
           | DrRossNelson wrote:
           | We are no longer in Scripps Ranch - my parents sold their
           | land and moved to Solana Beach. :D I'm up in the SF Bay Area
           | myself.
        
             | kylehotchkiss wrote:
             | Solana Beach isn't too bad either :)
        
       | pimlottc wrote:
       | This is perhaps only a problem with the niche HN user base, but
       | "Filing System" would be more accurate. Thought this had to do
       | with damaged hard disk recovery or redundant file systems or
       | something technical like that.
        
         | ziml77 wrote:
         | It really sounded to me like some grim project where you store
         | your data by destroying houses!
        
           | xp84 wrote:
           | In version two, instead of storing a 1 as a destroyed house,
           | we'll destroy them to varying degrees and then read that
           | single house as multiple bits. Like TLC SSDs
        
             | desdenova wrote:
             | What if we just destroy it enough so that nobody would want
             | to live there, but there may or may not be a homeless
             | person living there now?
             | 
             | Now we have quantum storage.
        
           | ginko wrote:
           | Relatively quick to write but expensive to reset the blocks.
        
             | Hackbraten wrote:
             | Version 2 works around that limitation using the divorce
             | and re-marry technique.
        
               | lazide wrote:
               | It requires super sensitive sensors through. The prior
               | rev could be read from orbit. (/s)
        
       | aurizon wrote:
       | Yes, first take a detailed slow panned video of each room, wall
       | by wall, ceiling and carpets. Basement and all tools (open all
       | and spread). Every appliance and fixtures get the medicine
       | cabinet and under all sinks. Same with garage and all in there,
       | same with shed and all vehicles/tools/bikes etc. You can then
       | slowly advance the video, list the books etc, all the kitchen
       | cabinet/freezer/clothes/bedding/frozen foods as well as dry foods
       | etc and amass a fully exhaustive home inventory. An amazing
       | amount of stuff = $$ builds up over the years and few people have
       | such a detailed loss record. You can do the video in 15 minutes
       | and as long as you save in the cloud - in a few places even - you
       | can tabulate that aspect of your loss in detail later - even
       | after the fact if well saved.
        
       | vlark wrote:
       | This is a useful tool for any homeowner, not just those
       | threatened by wildfire. Good luck and godspeed to those currently
       | in harm's way in California.
        
       | sedatk wrote:
       | There is no "File" menu in the current link because it's been
       | shared in HTML view mode. To make a local copy, use this link to
       | open it in edit mode instead (only the last path of the URL
       | should be different):
       | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TPeJzW5pa-BiJZjuEa1y...
        
       | rawgabbit wrote:
       | Thanks for the link. I learned that CA bans insurers from
       | deducting the value of land when purchasing a new home instead of
       | rebuilding.
       | 
       |  _Land Value Deduction - In the event of a total loss to your
       | property, the amount owed to you by the insurer is the cost to
       | rebuild your home at its original location, including building
       | code upgrade coverage and extended replacement cost coverage.
       | Your insurer is not allowed to take a deduction for the value of
       | land under the replacement home you purchase. [Cal Ins. Code
       | 2051.5 (c)(2)]_
        
       | Over2Chars wrote:
       | This is a very clever idea. Cudos.
       | 
       | I'm not 100% a fan of the google doc format, but whatever.
        
         | DrRossNelson wrote:
         | I welcome your suggestions and volunteer efforts if want to
         | help us make it better!
        
           | Over2Chars wrote:
           | It is obviously well intentioned and well timed.
           | 
           | Nit-picking it now wouldn't add any value.
        
             | DrRossNelson wrote:
             | Is there a format you'd like to see this in. Keep in mind
             | the original link in this thread was not formatted
             | properly. Ensure you use this:
             | 
             | https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TPeJzW5pa-
             | BiJZjuEa1y...
        
               | Over2Chars wrote:
               | I don't think you want to start a format discussion on
               | Hacker News. Seriously.
        
               | dbtc wrote:
               | Technically, you started it.
        
               | Over2Chars wrote:
               | I mentioned it, true. I declined to participate.
               | 
               | Shall we have a meta discussion?
        
               | dxdm wrote:
               | Go for it. I'd be interested to read along your meta
               | discussion, but I would not want to participate in one.
               | :]
        
       | irunmyownemail wrote:
       | If we click that link, who besides Google can instantly identify
       | us?
        
       | nomilk wrote:
       | Great advice, especially in the second tab (how to deal with
       | insurers).
       | 
       | I've always considered insurance false-economy and avoided it
       | wherever possible, especially for events with losses <$20k. This
       | is because the value of the three time-costs of insurance (time
       | to find, time to monitor, and time to claim) generally exceed the
       | expected value the claim.
       | 
       | For example, if my flight were cancelled, I might lose $1000. But
       | all the hassle signing up for, monitoring (to ensure conditions
       | don't change significantly in the insurer's favour; often
       | conveyed by an email to a spam folder), and going through a
       | stereotypically labyrinthine claims process is significantly
       | worse than being out of pocket $1000. Or another way to put it,
       | I'd pay $1000 just to _avoid_ having to do all that. Or a third
       | way to put it, if someone offered me $1000 to find them a
       | suitable insurance policy, monitor it to make sure the company
       | didn 't spontaneously alter it, and make a claim on their behalf,
       | I wouldn't do it, it's just not worth it.
       | 
       | I get why insurers are like this. If they can sneak you a
       | letter/email(/fax) and on in a foot note on page 43 'notify' you
       | of a reduction in your coverage (for unchanged premiums), they
       | make money. And if they make lodging a claim as onerous as
       | possible, some % of claimants will abandon the claim, making them
       | even more money. So insurance companies are just doing what
       | they're legally allowed to do to make as much money as possible.
       | 
       | Where possible (e.g. for events without enormous payouts
       | [obviously not so helpful in the case of LA fires]) it can be
       | better to DIY insurance, i.e. put a little savings aside for
       | those events (just as one may pay insurance premiums), that way,
       | you actually have it when you need it, unlike insurance payouts
       | from insurers who generally try to make it as difficult as
       | possible to obtain.
        
         | Narkov wrote:
         | > I've always considered insurance false-economy and avoided it
         | wherever possible, especially for events with losses <$20k.
         | 
         | Everything is relative, right? Self insurance is fine if you
         | can afford it. Most people can't wear a $20k hit without
         | potentially ending up homeless or in significant financial
         | distress.
        
         | NitpickLawyer wrote:
         | > For example, if my flight were cancelled
         | 
         | There has been a flurry of services in the EU that handle these
         | things for you, if you are impacted. It's usually as simple as
         | 1 form + a pic of a boarding pass, wait ~3 months and get ~70%
         | of the money into your account. Exactly as low effort as needed
         | to make it both useful and (one would hope) incentivise the
         | airlines to sort it out in a better way for the client (i.e.
         | rebooking, vouchers, etc).
        
         | madaxe_again wrote:
         | Yeah, I no longer bother with insurance but that which is
         | legally mandated. I honestly wish I didn't have to insure my
         | vehicles either, as the policies are just hopeless.
         | 
         | For instance, our home flooded to the roofline and our car was
         | washed away to god knows where five years back. Home insurance
         | covers floods - but not floods caused by rivers. Car insurance
         | covers floods - but only if parked on public land, and again
         | excludes rivers.
         | 
         | Two years ago we had a wildfire. Luckily, the houses did not
         | burn, but all of our infrastructure - tanks, solar panels,
         | electrical wiring, etc. - and our truck, did.
         | 
         | Again, our home insurer informed us that they could only
         | provide coverage in the event of total loss. Damage or partial
         | loss, not our problem. The truck insurer informed us that the
         | policy only covers fires which originate within the vehicle.
         | 
         | It's a grift. Every probable event is excluded in one way or
         | another, and only highly unlikely sets of circumstances remain,
         | like your vehicle spontaneously combusting on a rainy day, or
         | your stone home burning down to the foundations.
        
         | xelxebar wrote:
         | Insurance can actually be a win-win if you keep your money
         | sitting anywhere else other than a literal piggy bank.
         | 
         | Basically, it takes just as much time for your investments to
         | go from 10,000 USD to 50,000 USD as it does for 50,000 USD to
         | go to 250,000 USD. So a setback of 5,000 USD has a
         | disproportionate impact on your future financials the less
         | money you start off with.
         | 
         | In other words, if your total wealth is low enough, the
         | premiums can set you back much less than the expected loss from
         | the insured event, and _at the same time_ make insurance
         | companies a profit.
         | 
         | I'm still learning about this stuff, but here's an article that
         | breaks it down in more detail and more clearly than I have:
         | https://entropicthoughts.com/when-is-insurance-worth-it
         | 
         | Said article has apparently popped up on HN a few times:
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26834333
        
           | rcxdude wrote:
           | In general it's worth it if a) you can't afford to replace
           | the item in question (and the Kelly criterion gives you a
           | precise definition of 'afford' if you really want to model it
           | out), or b) you think the risk of losing the item is higher
           | than the insurance company does (which is rare outside of
           | cases of outright fraud, but might happen)
        
           | rlpb wrote:
           | Another advantage of insurance is that if your insurer is
           | responsible for the rectification then you benefit from
           | collective bargaining at a time when you may be unable to do
           | so yourself.
           | 
           | For example, if my car breaks down in the middle of nowhere
           | at 3am, I expect I'll end up paying far more for recovery
           | were I self-insured than a breakdown insurer will.
           | 
           | I think the article you linked is flawed because it presents
           | a mathematical solution without taking this into account.
        
       | DrRossNelson wrote:
       | We just had our Home Loss File System volunteer meeting. We are
       | now exploring the idea of building this as an app. If you are
       | interested in contributing to this, please reach out to me here
       | or via email: homelossfilesystem@gmail.com
        
         | lelandfe wrote:
         | Emailed.
        
         | humanfromearth9 wrote:
         | Please take into account that this list is not final and may
         | vary : some people may need to enter additional info. With a
         | spreadsheet, this remains easy to do (you are in full control
         | of the document and can add sheets, columns, rows as you wish),
         | but with a webapp, it's possible only if the webapp has the
         | feature to allow adding custom info.
         | 
         | Then, also essential (if not already there) , is adding or
         | mentioning a way to retrieve /store /note down all credentials
         | for websites, bank apps, ID card, ID/auth/esign apps... For
         | example encouraging the use of a Keepass file, even if new,
         | just to note down all remembered credentials.
        
       | greggsy wrote:
       | Would love to see an Australian equivalent of this.
        
       | soulmerge wrote:
       | What? "Home Loss File System"? There is a new file sytem? And
       | it's lossy? How isthat supposed to work!? _click_ ... Ooooooh
        
       | jijikuya wrote:
       | I'm on the other side of the planet so it's not my place to
       | comment on the content of any of this. It seems to look like a
       | good resource clearly made with the best of intentions.
       | 
       | I understand the people/person behind this wants to quickly and
       | easily impart information, so the best format for the job is
       | whichever one they can distribute info in as quickly as possible
       | -- but I also see this as a sort of indictment of the World Wide
       | Web as we know it.
       | 
       | This should be a website. This should be at the top of search
       | results. This should be viewable on mobile devices and desktops.
       | And yet, it's being shared through a proprietary office suite
       | service in the form of a spreadsheet that can't be quickly
       | referenced or copied without loading an entire webapp.
       | 
       | If you're one of the many people who wonder why Google stopped
       | being useful, if you're one of the many people who think it's
       | getting harder to find stuff online, here's your answer as to
       | why. All the good, salient, pertinent, well-formed information
       | that you want to find, is being shared like this.
       | 
       | This is what's easiest for people, and that's at odds with how we
       | find content these days. This comment came out kind of half-
       | baked, but I think it's interesting to think about, and it's not
       | a viewpoint I see here often.
        
         | kzalesak wrote:
         | I think that the biggest advantage of the spreadsheet is that
         | it can be modified easily, even democratically and also on the
         | go. No website offers that kind of ease of use for _adding_
         | information
        
           | acidburnNSA wrote:
           | You may be right, but it's still an indictment of the web.
           | After all, the first browser was an HTML editor as well as
           | viewer.
        
           | teddyh wrote:
           | Have you heard of Wikis?
        
             | egberts1 wrote:
             | Have you tried to edit just a tiny section of a Wiki while
             | being updated by thousands of Wiki editors?
        
           | _Algernon_ wrote:
           | Wikipedia is literally a website that does this and has
           | existed for >2 decades at this point.
        
             | dewey wrote:
             | Most wikis are not very user friendly (UI, not about the
             | rules and moderation), most people have used Word / Google
             | Docs before so it's much more natural.
        
             | wruza wrote:
             | ### Regular _users_ cannot edit [Wikipedia](<url>)
        
               | _Algernon_ wrote:
               | Refusal to learn != can't
        
               | wruza wrote:
               | Learning is the last thing they want to do in a situation
               | like "I want to update a document about losing homes",
               | and among the end of the to do list in general. One can
               | argue as much as they want how it's people's fault, but
               | the next catastrophe will create more google sheets and
               | whatsapp groups and zero wikis and forum threads.
               | 
               | I believe that developers could bridge this gap easily,
               | if they weren't in the denial about their own UI/UX
               | issues themselves.
        
               | _Algernon_ wrote:
               | I'm speaking more broadly, not this specific instance.
               | 
               | In either case, justifying unwillingness to learn is a
               | race to the bottom. I don't want every app to be made
               | targeted at the lowest common denominator -- nor do I
               | think it is healthy for society -- in terms of digital
               | literacy. That's a race to the bottom to every app being
               | like Tiktok.
               | 
               | Remember, that Gen Z doesn't understand what a directory
               | or a file is because they grew up on spoon-feeding mobile
               | apps, and this is causing problems for them when they
               | enter the workplace.
               | 
               | This type of thought process of making everything as
               | streamlined as possible is why that happens.
        
               | wruza wrote:
               | This is a slippery slope style argument with immediate
               | overstretching into tiktok.
               | 
               | There's a difference between learning google sheets and
               | learning markdown.
               | 
               | And you are misinterpreting the desire to not deal with
               | irrelevant complexity as some race to the bottom, as if
               | it wasn't constrained by the task itself.
               | 
               | The task of both wiki and google suite (in this case) is
               | to create web documents with formatting and links. We
               | clearly see what wins when there's no additional
               | constraints that wikipedia as a project imposes. Tiktok
               | is completely incomparable to these and is not the
               | "minimum state" of the same task.
               | 
               |  _This type of thought process of making everything as
               | streamlined as possible is why that happens._
               | 
               | This is just an incomplete thought. Multiple factors at
               | play here and only one of these is a type of thought
               | process. This is as unreasonable as saying "attention to
               | details is bad cause it's a type of thought process that
               | allows burglars to enter homes".
        
             | IanCal wrote:
             | Yes, let me just go pop my personal contents and insurance
             | details on wikipedia as myself and my family track, update
             | and modify the structure of the page.
        
               | _Algernon_ wrote:
               | Not sure why you feel justified in this level of
               | snarkiness, given that i responded to a very specific
               | claim:
               | 
               | >No website offers that kind of ease of use for _adding_
               | information
               | 
               | Obviously Wikipedia isn't great to upload your social
               | security number to, but it does allow democratic adding
               | of information which I cited it as an example of.
               | 
               | Please read the HN guidelines. You seem to require a
               | refresher:
               | 
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
               | 
               | >Don't be snarky.
        
               | IanCal wrote:
               | Perhaps it was a little snarky - it was intended with
               | good humour to point out how drastically far away the
               | suggestion was.
               | 
               | Wikipedia is nothing like what this is for adding
               | information in the way the comment says. Particularly
               | because one of the very key points about this sheet is
               | that you can _copy_ it and _add information_. It 's
               | explicitly _for_ that and Wikipedia absolutely does not
               | offer the ease of use of filling in forms and adding your
               | information on the go.
        
         | lazide wrote:
         | How is a Google App being useful representative of how _Google
         | stopped being useful_?
        
         | ksynwa wrote:
         | It should be theoretically possible for Google to display a
         | public Google doc as a search result. Google doesn't show good
         | search results because they do not want to at this point.
        
           | Cthulhu_ wrote:
           | Public spreadsheets (and forms) simply aren't indexed by
           | Google; I'm sure there's a reason somewhere but I haven't
           | been able to find it.
        
         | nicbou wrote:
         | The same thing happened with the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
         | In Berlin, the entire effort to support refugees was
         | coordinated on WhatsApp and Telegram, backed by Google Docs. It
         | still did a marvelous job until the authorities could catch up
         | and prepare resources. Even then the unofficial resources were
         | far better.
         | 
         | I run an information website for a living. There is nothing I
         | could have done that would have beat the speed and flexibility
         | of that response. My own response was just to give those
         | resources more visibility.
         | 
         | My takeaway was somewhat opposite to yours: it's marvelous that
         | we can do so much, so fast, for free, with minimal computer
         | skills. We should aim to make the independent web this easy.
        
           | cduzz wrote:
           | These ad-hoc efforts are wonderful and extremely effective
           | and are the utopia we all strive for.
           | 
           | Ultimately, I think, the distinction between "products" and
           | ad-hoc effort is that one is tolerant of abuse and bad actors
           | (the "enterprise" or bureaucratic system) and the other
           | simply isn't.
           | 
           | I think I read it somewhere here, that any large project
           | eventually turns into a moderation system.
           | 
           | I'm not sure what actions to take as a result of this
           | observation... except perhaps to be a little bit sad.
        
           | Cthulhu_ wrote:
           | Spreadsheet software and in this case specifically google
           | docs are great tools for getting something off the ground
           | fast; often it's good enough that no replacement needs to be
           | written. I'm reminded of a contract some of my colleagues had
           | at some point where a company's core business was all in a
           | shared excel sheet, their job was to replace it with a proper
           | application; iirc it took like 2-3 years to get it finished,
           | at significant cost / investment. Of course, the excel sheet
           | was no longer fit for purpose and not a good long term
           | strategy to have.
        
           | WesolyKubeczek wrote:
           | A potential problem with a website in a wartime scenario is
           | that once you publicize it, it has a huge target painted on
           | its RJ45 (or SFP) ports. Google Docs and whatsapp are huge
           | and resilient.
        
           | jijikuya wrote:
           | > It's marvelous that we can do so much, so fast, for free,
           | with minimal computer skills. We should aim to make the
           | independent web this easy.
           | 
           | Actually, I'd argue that our takeaway is the same. That's
           | exactly the wider point I'm making, I'm just using this
           | emergency as a synecdoche for it. This is good, the
           | independent web would be better. Why is the barrier for entry
           | to the 'normal' web so high that these people didn't consider
           | it?
           | 
           | Lots of information that should be hosted by local,
           | independent groups is being hosted in these closed un-
           | indexable platforms. It does the creator a disservice and the
           | end-user a disservice.
           | 
           | Had this disaster happened 10-15 years ago, I wager that this
           | information would (I think) likely be displayed and posted
           | here as a website (or at least turned into one).
           | 
           | And zooming out, how much good info is tied up in Google Docs
           | alone? Indulge me.
           | 
           | - Here's TaranVH's (The editor from Linus Tech Tips, and a
           | very technically skilled, impressive person) guide to colour
           | grading.[This one hurts particularly because it's _such a
           | good document_ and desperately wants to be anything but a
           | Google Doc.](https://shorturl.at/InI89)
           | 
           | - Here's a great resource for buying products for [Curly
           | Hair.](https://shorturl.at/ZbNF9) This should be a blog.
           | 
           | - How many times have you seen YT drama or open letters be
           | Google Docs? (https://shorturl.at/fJapj) If they were here,
           | it'd be <motherfuckingwebsite.com>
           | 
           | - Here's a guide to video game stats. This should be on a
           | Wiki. (https://shorturl.at/db49s)
           | 
           | - Here's a worldbuilding calculator. This should be a tool
           | website.*
           | (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AML0mIQcWDrrEHj-
           | InXo...)
           | 
           | Whatever your opinion on whether or not these should or
           | should not be documents vs. webpages, can we at least agree
           | that they have information that people would be interested
           | in? This stuff makes up the internet, this is where all the
           | cool shit is. 10-15 years ago, these would be in search
           | results. They're not anymore. It's all here, in
           | undiscoverable Google Docs, unsearchable Discord servers,
           | slow meandering Reddit threads, locked-down Facebook Groups
           | and anti-discoverable TikTok feeds.
           | 
           | I keep hearing too much about good content leaving us (AI
           | Slop in search), and not nearly enough about where it's
           | going. If you find out where the good, creative stuff is
           | going, you'll get your good, creative internet back.
           | 
           | *: I've said 'should' a lot, when what I mean is 'it would
           | have been one when I was a kid'.
        
         | tempworkac wrote:
         | strange comment - this should be a website that would
         | presumably be hosting, where exactly?
         | 
         | the average person would not be able to make something even
         | close to this sheet. where are they going to host it? do they
         | have a domain? certs? do they even know how to write html? css?
         | during a spiky event such as a wildfire, will their website
         | even stay up?
        
           | the_sleaze_ wrote:
           | I don't think it's strange at all.
           | 
           | Wouldn't this be a near perfect use-case for AI generated
           | websites?
        
             | jasode wrote:
             | _> Wouldn't this be a near perfect use-case for AI
             | generated websites?_
             | 
             | A non-tech user prompting ChatGPT to write out
             | HTML+CSS+Javascript still doesn't cover the other
             | logistical challenges of _hosting it on a server
             | somewhere_. E.g. Buy a domain? Then buy web hosting
             | package? Or use Netlify? Amazon S3?
             | 
             | Maybe someday OpenAI will have AI agents with authority to
             | pay with customers' credit-cards and opens Cloudflare or
             | DigitalOcean accounts on the users' behalf. That's a long
             | time into the future where such a workflow would be trusted
             | by non-technical end users. And then you still have the
             | irony of using _another proprietary entity of AI_ to
             | empower users to put up web pages.
             | 
             | Whether the internet was 1990s Geocities or something like
             | Github Pages today, a user sharing content on a personal
             | webpage is not a trivial task. So non-techies compensate
             | with _commercial services_ such as MySpace pages, Twitter
             | tweets, Facebook pages, or examples like this thread 's
             | Google Docs spreadsheet. A common theme of all those
             | commercial services is: _they handled the complexities of
             | web hosting._
             | 
             | EDIT reply: _> I feel like this response contains within it
             | a great deal of contempt for average people _
             | 
             | No, you misinterpreted. I was trying to get _techies to
             | empathize with typical end users_ and understand the
             | reasons why they don 't host their own web pages. If that
             | empathy was fully internalized, we'd already predict that a
             | ChatGPT-CoPilot assisted HTML tool isn't the only issue.
             | The gp you replied to highlighted that in his first
             | paragraph.
             | 
             | I have true _admiration_ and not contempt for the end users
             | at this charity using Google Spreadsheets to _empower
             | themselves to share a doc_ without waiting for a  "real
             | programmer or webmaster" to do it for them.
             | 
             |  _> Could you not just ask an LLM how one could host this
             | website for free somewhere,_
             | 
             | What's the current best answer for _" website for free
             | somewhere"_ that doesn't have the same criticism of being a
             | _proprietary entity_ that this subthread 's gp was
             | lamenting?
        
               | the_sleaze_ wrote:
               | I feel like this response contains within it a great deal
               | of contempt for average people and their problem solving
               | ability.
               | 
               | Could you not just ask an LLM how one could host this
               | website for free somewhere, and do the same for any
               | logistical challenges that arise beyond that?
        
               | lelandbatey wrote:
               | People could do that. Or they can click "new doc" in
               | Docs, start typing, then copy the URL and send it to a
               | friend. Look at that, they published a page, no problem
               | solving necessary. Thus people, no matter their ability,
               | will probably default to that approach.
               | 
               | I don't think it's a value judgement to say one thing is
               | easier than another and hence people will. Choose the
               | easier thing.
               | 
               | If we want more folks to use and build websites, it needs
               | to be Google-Docs level easy, otherwise people will use
               | Google Docs.
        
               | jijikuya wrote:
               | Exactly this. I do find it kinda funny that Google
               | Docs/Word and their ilk have HTML export options. Kind of
               | a weird funny/sad anachronism. As if there was some hope
               | that people would use Google Docs to make their own
               | contributions to the independent web.
        
               | jijikuya wrote:
               | I think you're the only one who understands what I was
               | trying to say here, which means I didn't say it nearly
               | clear enough. But thanks.
        
           | IanCal wrote:
           | In addition this includes tracking your own info in it. So
           | now we're going to need auth and a backend to store the data
           | on top of that.
        
         | dataflow wrote:
         | > And yet, it's being shared through a proprietary office suite
         | service in the form of a spreadsheet that can't be quickly
         | referenced or copied without loading an entire webapp.
         | 
         | I wish this was made obvious to users, but FYI: you can change
         | /edit to /preview at the end of the URL to get something more
         | like a webpage.
        
         | elzbardico wrote:
         | This should be a lot of things, but this is a spreadsheet that
         | was done probably by an end users, and thus is a superior
         | solution to all the potential options that were not done.
         | 
         | There are a lot of sheets on this worksheet that are intended
         | to be edited. Sometimes we forget that spreadsheets are popular
         | because they are useful for the people who use them. They have
         | an incredibly low barrier of adoption, are intuitive and
         | pratical for editing, and frankly, for the average users, they
         | do tables far better than HTML.
         | 
         | Why the fucking web has to be the measure of all things and
         | everything needs to be hypertext? Why the web has to be
         | everything and absorb all other applications?
         | 
         | There must be a reason why Visical was the killer app that
         | really popularized the home computer for non-nerds, followed by
         | 1-2-3 and why almost 40 years laters excel is still one of the
         | most used tools.
         | 
         | Yeah, not everybody in the world is a developer, not everybody
         | has to think like us, and frankly, sometimes we are pretty
         | limited in our way of thinking, and way less creative than our
         | users.
        
         | throw8923982398 wrote:
         | I guess author does not have much resources. It is probably
         | single person, with no government backing. There is not even
         | spanish translation!
         | 
         | In 2015 refugee crisis, website had much better organization.
         | It had nice graphic and translation to 5 languages. It had upto
         | date information about police locations, border weaknesses, and
         | how to use free trains (avoid ticket checks). Volunteers were
         | even giving away free phones with SIM data plans, bolt cutters,
         | single use tents...
        
         | IanCal wrote:
         | And how do those people enter their information? Where is it
         | stored?
        
         | meshweaver wrote:
         | The plot thickens.
         | 
         | At the time of writing this, the linked-to Google Sheet
         | redirects to an html-only view with this message: "Some tools
         | might be unavailable due to heavy traffic in this file." In
         | this html-only view, while the user can still see the entire
         | list of sheets at the top, in-document links to other sheets do
         | not work, and some text overflows its cell and is not visible.
         | 
         | Most important information appears to be visible still, but
         | those who wish to add to or edit the document seem to be out of
         | luck.
         | 
         | What went wrong? Perhaps each Google Sheet has access
         | throttling, not ideal for users of high-traffic docs like this,
         | especially if the users have critical information to share.
         | 
         | And yet, what other tool should they have used?
         | 
         | We need collaborative, easily-shareable, WYSIWYG document
         | editors for situations just like this, except of course, their
         | access should not be throttled, and their content should be
         | discoverable by search engines.
         | 
         | Do we need a new web? A web whose content is able to be
         | directly manipulated? A web that is collaborative by default?
        
           | entropicdrifter wrote:
           | Perhaps some sort of Fediverse Google Docs/Sheets equivalent?
           | Where each user can host their own copy (if they want) and
           | the pub/sub algorithm ensures that it's all eventually
           | consistent, if higher latency than something inherently
           | centralized like Google?
        
       | pragma_x wrote:
       | As an article posted on HN, I expected this to be about how to
       | cope with losing a self-hosted Linux filesystem. As a resource to
       | deal with "home loss", this is excellent.
       | 
       | Also, I'd like to take a moment to appreciate how close this
       | comes to implementing most of a website within a google
       | spreadsheet. I know that much of this is intended to be
       | duplicated and filled out, but the first few tabs would be right
       | at home as HTML somewhere. You can't beat the hosting cost of
       | doing it this way, and now I wonder how many folks are abusing
       | Google Docs like that.
        
       | samiv wrote:
       | But why does this not exist for those who already lost their
       | homes years ago and are living on the streets?
       | 
       | A bunch of rich home owners have their houses burned down it's an
       | emergency.
       | 
       | Tens of thousands of homeless people live on the streets and
       | nobody bats an eye.
       | 
       | Just saying.
        
         | jjkaczor wrote:
         | From the first (most top-voted) post in this thread from the
         | person who put this together, states:
         | 
         | "We've disseminated 2700 of the physical file boxes to fire
         | survivors over the last 15 years and excited about what the
         | digital resource can become."
        
       | otterpro wrote:
       | This is great, I can just fill it out, and save a copy somewhere
       | in google drive. Also I'd keep a printed hard copy of it and then
       | save it in (fireproof) safe or a bug-out bag for escaping from
       | disaster.
        
       | brooksbp wrote:
       | Is there a resource for what to do _before_ an event like this?
        
       | newman314 wrote:
       | This is nice!
       | 
       | One thing I was reading about was some folks cautioning about the
       | scams and underhanded behavior that spring up around unfortunate
       | events.
       | 
       | A tab/page dedicated documenting things to watch out for would be
       | helpful.
       | 
       | Some items like what is described here:
       | https://www.consumerfinance.gov/ask-cfpb/how-do-i-avoid-scam...
        
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