[HN Gopher] Ask HN: How do you prevent the impact of social medi...
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Ask HN: How do you prevent the impact of social media on your
children?
I don't yet have children but having grown up during the rise of
social media, it's clear to me that the way it is used now by young
children and teens has transformed even from when I was their age
(approx 10 years ago). It worries me for when I myself have to
manage their exposure to things like this. On one hand, I feel it
would be in their best interests to be completely shielded from it
as I personally feel it isn't beneficial for them on the whole at
that age. However, it's undeniable that at that age it's all about
fitting in and it would likely make them feel like a bit of an
outcast if I were to limit them from being a part of it, like I
imagine every other kid would be. I'm curious to know what kinds
of methods you have implemented to manage this or whether you feel
the same as me
Author : justneedaname
Score : 150 points
Date : 2025-01-13 14:02 UTC (1 days ago)
| paulcole wrote:
| You don't need to worry that much. Most people turn out pretty OK
| despite their parents screw-ups and best intentions.
| aristofun wrote:
| That is pretty dangerous position to take. "That much" is a
| very vague line.
|
| It is more true that more kids turn out to be fine when their
| parents care, than when they don't.
| paulcole wrote:
| But I'm not saying "don't care."
|
| I'm saying that if you screw up sometimes but generally have
| good intentions your kid is probably going to be fine.
|
| But it is also your right to try to figure out the perfect
| thing to do in every situation.
| aristofun wrote:
| Fair enough
| more_corn wrote:
| lol, take a quick peek at your home's Internet access logs.
| You'll almost certainly find opportunities for some parenting /
| teaching moments.
| paulcole wrote:
| Isn't the teachable moment to realize your kids are going to
| see those things no matter what I do? Kids on the internet
| see all sorts of stuff and almost all of them end up fine.
| oldandboring wrote:
| If you don't mind me asking... do you have kids?
| ta1243 wrote:
| Teachable moments is things learning about things like DNS,
| vpns elsewhere, man in the middle attacks, etc.
| aristofun wrote:
| My take is to defer them having an unlimited internet access as
| much as reasonably possible + build trust.
|
| I don't believe blocking things from a position of authority
| would work well for the most kids longterm.
| codingdave wrote:
| We don't micromanage their online access, but we do try to
| encourage being online in healthy ways:
|
| We did no smartphones before high school. (Have had zero problems
| with that in terms of their social acceptance) Also, no computers
| in their rooms - everything is done in more shared space, with
| monitors facing the rest of the room. We talk about what kinds of
| content to watch out for, how to think critically about it, and
| what kinds of content or people are more serious, that they need
| to let us know if they run into. (Stalkers, scammers, other such
| actively harmful stuff.)
|
| That does give them enough freedom once they hit high school to
| be more secretive about what they do. But we feel that is also
| more appropriate as they grow older. There have been problems.
| When they occur, we talk openly about them and help them both
| resolve the problems and learn from them. We are big believers
| that wisdom comes from experience, and experience comes from
| doing, so we try to focus on letting them expand their autonomy
| as they grow up, while at the same time minimizing harm when
| mistakes are made and learning from them.
| Desafinado wrote:
| A good start is to avoid giving them a smartphone until they're
| in high school. And once they have a smartphone require them to
| get permission from you before installing any social media apps,
| with consequences if they don't follow the rules (take the phone
| away). Make the consequences known up front, rather than reactive
| so they know the guidelines regarding their phone use.
|
| And whatever you do DO NOT give your child a handheld device
| (tablet or smartphone) before they're in high school. My wife and
| I are seeing parents give their two year olds a tablet which is
| absolutely detrimental to their development.
| muzani wrote:
| There's apps like Google Family Link which basically gives you
| and the child a contract and enforces that contract. Screen
| times on what days. What they install. The kind of media they
| can view on the YouTube on the device. Even if you change the
| policy, the child is informed.
| more_corn wrote:
| I've got a friend who did this. His 13yr old daughter craved
| instagram and snuck access. The story sounded like parents of
| the previous generation catching their kids smoking and
| drinking.
|
| I'm pretty sure the prohibition didn't work and added the spice
| of forbidden. I don't know the answer, but I suspect full
| prohibition isn't it.
| Desafinado wrote:
| I've got a brother who did this. His son is about to graduate
| med school in the 98th percentile.
|
| More seriously, it's not beyond the pale to introduce them to
| the internet. The more important thing is to put off
| handhelds for as long as possible.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| You're not going to be able to stop your kids from doing
| anything unless you shackle them up nightly. However, you can
| stop them from doing it while under your roof and that
| significantly curtails their ability to take anything too
| far.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| >Ideally, you would live in a community where all parents
| have agreed on the social media limits,
|
| At least on the iPhone, the parental controls are pretty
| fine-grained. Even if there was a way to have a web-only
| account on an Apple device, you can block those too (never
| used that feature though).
| n2dasun wrote:
| Having caved on this idea, I 100% agree
| 9rx wrote:
| _> I are seeing parents give their two year olds a tablet which
| is absolutely detrimental to their development._
|
| My kid couldn't care less about using a tablet or other device
| if there is any other activity on the table. In other words,
| for them to reach the point of using, I have to be completely
| ignoring them.
|
| Is it really the device that leads to developmental detriment,
| or parents who aren't involved in their childrens' lives?
| M4v3R wrote:
| Just because your child has been this way does not mean
| everyone's is. I have a 3 year old and even though I have
| been very strict about screen time (tv or phone) - she
| watched her first cartoon just months before 2nd birthday -
| from the very beginning screens were hypnotizing for her. She
| would stop whatever she was doing once a screen was playing
| nearby. No amount of entertainment I would provide would make
| her look away. So it's good for you that you don't have this
| problem, but from my experience and from talking to others
| this is definitely a struggle for many.
| ACow_Adonis wrote:
| I genuinely don't think the tech medium is the problem. There's
| good and educational software available on tablets just as
| there is on anything else.
|
| While I've always been anti-tablet myself, and anti-phone for
| similar reasons (though why a kid would need a phone is beyond
| me at this stage), there's programs for literacy and learning
| available on the tablets that work just fine, as well as art,
| creativity and painting. The "secret" is just no access to the
| toxic: we have one tablet, my 5/6 year old loves reading-eggs
| and Minecraft but we have no social media and no YouTube and no
| purchases, plus the entire house is behind an ad blocking
| firewall. My kid is allowed to watch videos and access apps
| like ABC iView/kids, but from the open web they have to be
| ripped and placed on our local media share drive before they're
| viewable. No YouTube or YouTube kids obviously because it's a
| toxic cesspool.
|
| My experience is that without the trash\addictive nonsense,
| while the kids are drawn to the iPad, they'll also self
| regulate a bit and move between other activities of they're
| available and get bored of spending all their time on the pad.
|
| In his room I've just built him a Linux computer, and that's
| restricted both in time (can only log on to his account at
| certain hours), has no native web browser, and requires me to
| install programs and updates. He can access the games we
| approve but like everything else in the house it's basically a
| social media and almost ad free zone.
|
| I've introduced him to modded Minecraft because it's basically
| Lego... And though it's frustrating that Microsoft took it
| over, we basically just ignore the Microsoft side of things and
| just operate on the free community modded side of things. I
| showed him how we could change his sword and I've got a whole
| modded world where we can set ourselves up and play on LAN
| together. The other game he loves at the moment is beyond all
| reason, a community made RTS game I've been involved with, and
| he just won his first match against the simple AI (though I did
| have to talk to the other Devs to allow us an account from the
| same IP so we could play together). The goal of all this is to
| give the message that technology is all about being a creative
| tool you choose to use to make what you want, not a medium
| about being a passive recipient for advertising or marketing or
| endless video consumption, feeds, recommendations or outrage
| cycles. No one needs any subscriptions or recommendations or
| likes or feeds. But there's nothing inherently toxic about a
| screen or a tablet, those are choices we make (or more
| accurately are pushed upon and chosen for us if we're not
| careful).
|
| I think there's a non-zero chance that I'll be setting up a
| local server for the neighbourhood kids over the next year or
| two so they can all play together without worrying about the
| wider internet and I'll probably have to work to admin that in
| some way.
| Desafinado wrote:
| It can be done, but my take is that until your kid is through
| puberty their job is to learn how to navigate the real world,
| how to talk to people in person, and so on. You can give them
| technology but it has very minimal benefit compared to the
| alternative, that is if your home is full of books and you're
| reading to them regularly.
|
| All that being said we're somewhat liberal with TV, and we'll
| introduce them to a PC in time. But for now the MO is real
| world skills and intelligence.
|
| Jonathan Haidt also pointed to evidence that technology
| during the adolescence phase can wreak havoc. Particularly
| handhelds and social media.
| muzani wrote:
| They don't really have any interest in social media as we use
| them. It's likely there will be some other new form of social
| media, probably something more metaverse like Roblox or
| Minecraft.
|
| As a kid, I remember we had these things on TV and people would
| dial on phones just to have messages show up on TV. It seems kind
| of the same with Gen Alpha and YouTube. There's all these things
| like Discord, but they feel more like being lonely in a group.
| tra3 wrote:
| > They don't really have any interest in social media as we use
| them.
|
| This seems misleading, even if it's true. My kids keep asking
| for TikTok/Instagram etc access. Because their friends have
| these apps.
|
| Seeing certain messaging will them have a similar impact that
| it does on older individuals.
| more_corn wrote:
| Yeah, I find it completely implausible that kids wouldn't
| have interest in social media. Perhaps the OP is using a very
| restrictive definition that excludes TikTok and instagram.
| muzani wrote:
| I meant as _we_ use them. Exclusionary of the [HN crowd]. I
| don 't think most of the ones we use market to children
| anyway. And social networks rely on a network effect to be
| useful.
|
| They will certainly find a way to socialise on the
| internet, but unlikely in the form we're used to. I'm
| saying it's like giving antibiotics to viruses; most of the
| solutions we have will be ineffective because the next
| generation will be doing something different.
|
| Many kids will have Roblox and learned to interact in
| worlds with others without texting, posting, or commenting.
| If you play mobile games, most even disable typing because
| of toxicity/language/app store restrictions, and they rely
| on emoting to communicate.
|
| There's one way stuff like this, which don't resemble most
| of today's social media: https://store.steampowered.com/app
| /1070710/Kind_Words_lo_fi_...
|
| I wouldn't be surprised if a new app emerged where they'd
| poke each other without typing any words. Those are the
| ones I'd watch out for.
| muzani wrote:
| We give them access. They get bored of it because their
| friends aren't on it. They will swipe on TikTok, but it's
| missing the social aspect.
|
| When is the last time you met anyone younger than 20 on
| Instagram? I'd be skeptical on that alone. Reddit and Discord
| still have teenagers, and those are the ones I would watch.
|
| Influencers do exist in their lives but they seem exclusively
| from YouTube and Roblox. These tend to funnel into Discord
| and... wikis?
|
| Things that went viral with my kids in 2024: Sprunki, The
| Amazing Digital Circus, Fundamental Paper Education. These
| are not popular on IG, FB, Twitter, TikTok, so I assume these
| platforms aren't popular with kids either.
| thom wrote:
| Our kids play Roblox but we don't let them chat or add friends.
| They just have FaceTime on in the background while playing with
| school friends. Seems fun to me, and none of them appear to
| have become demented.
| n2dasun wrote:
| Device time limits and prerequisites, and periodically check-ins
| (hey, what are you doing/watching?)
|
| Even with all this, it's obvious that the influence is very
| strong
| codegeek wrote:
| So we compromised on giving them devices/phones (with restricted
| access) but in return, got them to agree that they will not use
| social media of any kind at least until 18.
|
| I think it is very difficult in today's world to prohibit
| completely. It may create more rebellion down the road and I like
| to be open with my kids. A little bit of device is not end of the
| world as long as you control it which we do.
| gunian wrote:
| i cast a shielding spell if you believe in religion can plug
| asimpleusecase wrote:
| We have limited access to devices for under ten. Even educational
| apps on tablets have strict time limits. Initially there is an
| emotional reaction to limits and we talk to them about who is in
| control. Them or the technology. We want them to have mastery
| over the tech so that they can put it down. Only when you can put
| it down and move on to a real world activity are you the one in
| control. Personal tech is a tool, a dangerous one. We would not
| hand car keys to a 5 year old and let them teach themselves how
| to drive. Recently my 13 year old asked for a blow torch to do
| some metal work. We explained the danger and over see the tool.
| He is totally absorbed in his craft, he has not asked for a
| phone. In a chat with a neighbour we mentioned the blow torch and
| said " we find it to be less dangerous than social media on a
| smart phone. They stopped and said "yes, that is absolutely
| right." We just got our 16 year old a smart phone but with
| limits. He needs the tool for work, orchestra communication and
| for maps of public transport. We are in a constant dialog about
| gaining personal freedom and responsibility. We have friends
| whose children are self harming due to bullying they have
| experienced on social media. It has been a deep discussion in
| their home. They are carefully walking their way forward but they
| regret not having more safety rails and discussion 2 years ago.
|
| I'm of the opinion that we need to think of smart phones like
| power tools. And that there ought to be significant training and
| oversight and demonstrated understanding of risks and how to use
| the tool safely.
| getwiththeprog wrote:
| Give kids more - teach them media and how to use a computer. Help
| them find quality programming from a young age so when they are
| teens they can make informed choices.
|
| Discuss with them values, your and other peoples.
|
| Make time for them IRL, and do things together so they don't have
| to find fulfilment in digital arms.
| trinix912 wrote:
| While it might sound backwards, it's probably more effective
| than banning and hard rules in the long run.
|
| Yes, you can isolate them from social media at home, but you
| have to acknowledge that it also means they will be missing
| out, won't be invited to things planned on there, will live
| under constant tension of "what are others talking on there?",
| all of which might actually stunt their (social) development
| more than just being on social media with no restrictions. You
| can take alternative approaches along the lines of "let them
| use computers first, then phones", but then you're no better
| than the parents forcing kids into a certain sport because of a
| personal preference.
|
| I'm not saying don't ever tell them to go offline, just saying
| dialing down the restrictions a bit and actively providing
| alternatives-spending time with them-should go a long way.
| Spend time engaged with them, just generally show them the way-
| show them sports, activities, ... they can do with or without
| friends, offline. Lead by example is the term here.
|
| To end this, I also know quite a few cases where the
| restrictions have backfired to the point the kid feels like
| they need to use up all precious daily screentime allowance,
| even tho they might have better things to do, just because it's
| so limited.
| let_me_post_0 wrote:
| Make sure they are living full lives and have many offline
| occupations to fill their time with. Social media addicts are
| just bored teenagers who have nothing else better to do, or
| teenagers who feel as though they cannot be part of the local
| social groups so they retreat to the online world.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| This is a question I keep asking myself. My in-laws live in until
| May and they give free reins of social media time to my 4-years
| old so I keep pulling him off. And we tightly control what he
| watches on TV (only downloaded videos, no YT, no network
| actually).
|
| So far it's OK. But I don't know what happens when he goes into
| primary school and his friends start using social media because
| some parents just don't care. I honestly have no idea. I'll
| probably ask him to text using a dumb phone instead.
|
| Worst case I'll keep a secret smart phone just for baking/maps
| but use a dumb phone for daily drive. Probably best for me
| anyway.
|
| Social media is a nuclear blast for any mind who is not strong
| enough and doesn't have any hobbies. My father-in-law literally
| live in Tiktok and Red note. He is watching it when he goes to
| bed, when he is taking a dump, when he is exercising... it's just
| part of the body I guess. So much brain rot.
| idermoth wrote:
| Our kids? Hell, my wife and I don't use social media, except in
| very limited doses for work reasons. Our kids have zero access to
| it and never will. Their device usage is kept at a minimum and
| used for mostly educational or quality conversational purposes.
|
| I hate how many people now, whenever we're around them everyone
| has their phones out scrolling through 30 sec videos. They want
| to show you things which aren't funny, aren't entertaining,
| aren't informative... it's damn near Idiocracy levels of content
| consumption.
|
| [Insert video of someone badly dancing with caption that says
| "me."]
|
| Personally, I find it bizarre and extremely boring.
| strix_varius wrote:
| Every week since she was about six months old, I've taken my
| daughter with me to get groceries. She's absolutely fascinated
| by the grocery store: the rolling cart, the colors and textures
| of produce ("ta-to!"), the other shoppers, the illustrations on
| packaging ("bear!"). I hand her items and give her their names.
| She shakes them, rotates them, repeats their names back to me.
|
| But every time we go, I see at least one child my daughter's
| age or younger staring mindlessly at a phone or tablet,
| oblivious to their environment and the parent pushing their
| cart. It just seems sad.
| tmn wrote:
| Ahh I just had to share that my 1 year old daughter also
| loves the grocery store. She doesn't want to leave the cart
| when it's time to go. Thanks for the comment.
| jorts wrote:
| Especially if they have a cart that's a car or train.
| qwerpy wrote:
| I used to judge parents who resorted to tablets to keep their
| children quiet. I don't really anymore. You don't know how
| exhausted the parents might be or how many hours they've
| already spent trying to entertain their kids in a more
| wholesome manner.
|
| I've taken a 2 year old on vacation and some of that time is
| spent going to unique restaurants that take a couple of hours
| for a meal. My toddler would get bored and squirmy and would
| quickly ruin dinner for the entire restaurant. Same thing for
| airplanes. Of course I don't resort to it immediately but if
| talking, interacting, and other toys don't do the trick, iPad
| is a very useful tool in the arsenal. A carefully curated
| list of educational, offline content is acceptable in my
| opinion.
|
| Grocery store, or any other short errand? Sure, that's too
| much.
| webdood90 wrote:
| Man, if you don't want to deal with the challenges of
| children, why have kids? I don't lie to myself, I know I
| couldn't do it and I didn't.
|
| Maybe you just don't get to go out for dinner or ride on
| planes until they don't need to be hypnotized with a
| screen? You know it's bad for them but you're putting your
| comforts and freedoms above theirs and everybody else's.
|
| I can't help but feel like the next generation has been
| completely fucked.
| gameman144 wrote:
| I feel like this mindset is part of why so many people
| are nervous about having kids, and I couldn't disagree
| with it more.
|
| Your kid is not an optimization problem, they're a part
| of your family. If you want to do something unique that's
| going to bore your kids, it's fine to give them something
| to do; a half hour of screen time while you enjoy that
| fancy restaurant while traveling is fine. Your kid will
| be fine.
|
| Sometimes you _should_ put your comforts and freedoms
| above your kid 's. You are not their servant, you are
| your own person who has your own wants and needs, and
| those get to win out sometimes. If your kid throws a
| tantrum when you're in an art museum, yeah, try to
| discipline them and calm them down and teach them. If you
| have a rare opportunity to visit a museum you've always
| wanted to, though, then it's fine to lose a battle or two
| here or there if the alternative is missing out on unique
| experiences that you value.
|
| There are sacrifices to being a parent for sure, but the
| mindset that it's taboo to allow anything to happen
| that's not immediately in the best long-term
| developmental interest of your child is mind-boggling to
| me. Don't raise your kids in front of screens, but being
| a parent isn't some phase change that means you have to
| abandon all your interests and dreams and desires; it
| just means there's one more person whose interests and
| dreams and desires you have to care about now.
| kridsdale1 wrote:
| This is not the typical coastal educated elite liberal
| mindset. The social pressure to treat birth as a
| permanent phase change (good term) is immense.
| jorts wrote:
| Don't judge until you've been there. Screens are more of
| a last resort for my family but we do use them. We avoid
| most activities where kids will bore quickly but it's
| impossible to avoid all situations like that.
| bkandel wrote:
| This is so off-base I don't even know where to begin.
| "Maybe you just don't get to ... ride on planes" -- so
| the kids never get to meet their grandparents or great-
| grandparents who are too unwell to make the trip because
| you won't give them a screen for an hour or two? Like
| everything else in life, dealing with screens is a
| balance. Every day for multiple hours is too much; a
| couple hours on twice-yearly trips is not going to have
| any effect on them.
| recursive wrote:
| If you can't deal with the challenges of being on a plane
| where someone else's kids are screaming, maybe you just
| don't get to go on commercial flights. Just charter a
| jet.
|
| Non-parents always have all the answers about how kids
| should be raised.
| drivebyhooting wrote:
| It is possible to do without tablets/phones. It means you
| can't do 2 hour dinners for the first 5 years. Always have
| a parent ready to walk outside.
|
| Once the child is 5 they will sit and talk to you for
| hours, do puzzles, and play games.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Yeah don't take a 2-year-old to a dinner like that. Do it
| later, when they are old enough to sit through it or get a
| sitter.
|
| It's only a few years when they are this needy. You'll
| survive without exotic vacations and fancy restaurants for
| that time.
| elevatedastalt wrote:
| I've seen a wide spectrum in that. There are those that
| only wheel out the mind-numbing Youtube videos as a last
| resort, but I have seen other parents where the kid
| basically never has dinner without staring at a screen.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| I took my 1 year old camping this weekend without my wife.
| I plopped him in the car seat and put on a Ms. Rachel video
| so that he would be quiet/calm while I packed up the
| campsite.
|
| I felt a little bad resorting to using a video like that to
| "control" him, but then I carried him on a 3 mile hike
| where he spent the whole time looking at the trees, before
| eventually falling asleep.
|
| I'm hoping that as he grows up I can just teach him to have
| a healthy relationship with things like social media and
| use it like anything else for entertainment.
| idermoth wrote:
| Since you're getting some responses to this, I'll add to
| what we started.
|
| It's important to note: I think "judging" parents isn't
| productive. People don't understand there are an insane
| amount of variables involved in raising kids, especially
| day-to-day.
|
| So even though, I agree with you: we have tried since the
| beginning to raise children who can go to museums, who can
| read for long hours, etc. On vacations, we always packed a
| big bag of books, mini-games, etc. This will keep little
| kids busy for hours.
|
| The BIG part though...
|
| Really, sometimes you simply have to let stuff happen. Part
| of being a parent is engaging your child when they're
| frustrated and bored, NOT getting rid of them. It's a HUGE
| part... walking with them outside to talk through their
| feelings and your expectations.
|
| Is it a pain in the ass? Absolutely. Is it one of the most
| valuable things you'll ever do with them? Without question.
| Fire-Dragon-DoL wrote:
| Oh ok, I'm glad I'm not the only one who finds those things
| idiotic, not fun and not useful
| 0_____0 wrote:
| How old are your kids?
| noufalibrahim wrote:
| No phones or SM accounts for kids till they turn 18. Yes, there's
| a "fear" of being an outcast but they work their way around that
| quickly and if they have other things to spend time on, they'll
| be fine. The "need" for social media is mostly FOMO.
| ta1243 wrote:
| Do you have kids in double digits?
|
| Our senior schools (from age 11, "6th grade" in US term)
| literally mandate a phone (not a computer, an actual phone) for
| school, both to use in class and to receive homework
| assignments.
| scop wrote:
| Four thoughts:
|
| 1. I've developed a analog->digital path for my kids. Before they
| can get a music player, they get a CD player. Before they get
| video games, they get board games. And then, for video games,
| before they get Super Mario Odyssey they get the original Super
| Mario Bros. Each of these "first they get" is a long period.
| Years long. Give them something that has limitations so they can
| truly explore it. Find the nooks and crannies of something. Make
| up their own weird little things within that limitation. And
| then, back to music, I want my kids to know what a musical album
| is, know how to savor the highs and the lows, how sometimes
| certain tracks mean more to you based on your mood or life-stage,
| then just an endless playlist of newness.
|
| 2. The gorilla in the room is that most adults can barely handle
| online media.
|
| 3. The _other_ gorilla in the room is porn. Again, see #2.
|
| 4. The classic philosophers placed Prudence as the queen of
| virtues. What is prudence? It is essentially _the ability to
| grasp reality_. Why did they say that was most important? Because
| you couldn 't use any of the other virtues if your didn't have a
| good grasp of reality (e.g. fortitude would be foolhardiness if
| you ran into a ill-conceived death thinking you were being
| brave).
|
| You need to make sure you and your kids are able to grasp
| _reality_ , not just the appearance of it.
| mrnaught wrote:
| "analog->digital path" thank you!
| ta1243 wrote:
| How far along this path are your kids?
| ozim wrote:
| Gorilla in the room are other f*ng parents.
|
| You can prevent as much as you want but then kids go to school
| nd everyone else has accounts they should not have or devices
| they should not have and your kids are angry at you because now
| you are the bad guy.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Yup. "Why didn't my kid get invited to that birthday? Oh, it
| was organized on Snapchat..."
|
| We have a no phones in the bedroom and no phones past a
| certain time rule, but disconnecting entirely makes one a
| social pariah.
| ikiris wrote:
| "Devices or accounts they should not have"
|
| Just because you think your kids should be limited to the
| Bible or no phones or no social media or no d&d or whatever
| arbitrary limits / moral panic you impose, does not extend
| those limits to other kids in any moral fashion. Those kids
| have full rights to have whatever they have and you are
| indeed the bad guy for your arbitrary limits if they are not
| common or inhibiting socially.
| randunel wrote:
| No, those kids can't have whatever they have if they're
| under 13, 14 or 18, depending on what it is that they have.
| ericmcer wrote:
| What there is 100% a precedent for prohibiting certain
| activities from minors because their brains are
| undeveloped.
|
| In the future we will view a child spending hours a day on
| Tiktok how we currently view a kid smoking cigarettes. It
| is creating an entire generation of anxious, ADHD addled
| kids who struggle with school and focused work of any kind.
| ikiris wrote:
| [citation needed] for evidence that somehow TikTok is at
| all responsible for causing adhd
| kridsdale1 wrote:
| Bruh we have a decade of Research on this. Go type some
| words in to Google Scholar.
| ikiris wrote:
| The closest thing I can find is in the floods cause rain
| sense, so please post the links
|
| To put this in perspective, people said the same moral
| panic about tv and that has also been rigorously proven
| false yet disagreed with by laymen.
| aczerepinski wrote:
| ADHD is a real neurological condition that people are
| born with; not something learned via an app. Post links
| to research please.
| stephenhuey wrote:
| Do you have children? We are not bad parents just because
| we prohibit our children from doing something that is a
| "common" practice for many other kids in our circles. As
| for inhibiting socially, do you realize that multiple major
| publications have just been putting out articles in the
| past month about adults isolating more than ever? If
| anything, social media is a contributing factor to that
| social decline. I'm grateful my kids are young, and were
| not born a decade earlier because many kids I know that
| were born around that time have suffered with smartphone
| access. These are not arbitrary standards--it is a widely
| understood problem.
| ericmcer wrote:
| Exactly, I see all these idealized strategies around social
| media and children but the reality is nothing is going to
| overcome the peer pressure of being 12 years old and the only
| kid at school without a phone.
|
| Until schools and government restrict phone ownership in a
| real way, parents are going to keep giving phones to their 8
| year olds.
| figers wrote:
| We choose an apple watch for this reason, that way we can
| still call them / locate them, they are part of their
| friends iMessage groups, but no social media apps are
| possible...
| feistypharit wrote:
| We just got Apple Watches for our 11 and 13 year olds. It
| is a decent middle ground, as up to now we've been very
| limiting of their screen time.
|
| Our district has strict blocks in place at school, but
| most kids still already have phones. We did it for that
| reason and so so we don't introduce phones at the same
| time they start driving (which is when we figured they'd
| actually need it)
|
| One thing I wasn't quite prepared for is kids use hand he
| group chats that result in hundreds of messages a day.
| Learned how to mute discussions really quick. You can
| also limit access to groups with parental controls.
|
| Key is talking to your kids regularly and helping them
| navigate life. Real and digital.
| asoneth wrote:
| > everyone else has accounts they should not have or devices
| they should not have
|
| You can start the conversation with other parents at
| kindergarten pickup.
|
| Each grade at our school has a pledge that kids & parents can
| sign to wait until eighth grade to let them have a
| smartphone. This can be as simple as a shared spreadsheet or
| a dedicated site like https://www.waituntil8th.org
|
| My kids are still young but from what I've heard from
| families with older kids is that holding the line gets
| increasingly hard as they approach 8th grade. You have to be
| prepared to socially exclude families that let their underage
| children use smartphones or social media, the same way you
| wouldn't invite a family that lets their middle-schooler
| drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes to your kid's birthday
| party.
|
| While you can never get everyone to agree to anything, as
| long as your kids have a critical mass of friends who don't
| have smartphones then not having one won't make them an
| outcast.
| aczerepinski wrote:
| All of my kid's sixth grade friends have smartphones. No
| exceptions. If I excluded those families my kid wouldn't be
| allowed to have friends. Best I can do is take the other
| kids phones away after a certain number of screen hours at
| my house.
|
| Limiting screen time is an exceptionally challenging task
| because of the many loopholes and bugs in parental
| controls, and my lack of direct control over the
| chromebooks the schools issue.
|
| Do you really think you can predict your kids future
| friends correctly and lobby the correct set of parents
| during kindergarten years?
| lolinder wrote:
| The best thing my parents ever did for me was cultivate a
| sense of familial superiority.
|
| Other families had the TV on all the time, but we read books
| instead because we were 'better'. Other kids did drugs and
| drank, but we were better than that. Peer pressure didn't
| have much of an impact on me because I was raised to believe
| that I was better than 'that' for most values of 'that'. And
| my parents never had to force me on any of this--they just
| invited me to be a part of their exclusive club.
|
| There might be a way around this that doesn't involve
| cultivating a mild condescension towards peers, but I can say
| from experience that the condescension does work!
| siavosh wrote:
| I think you're on to something...
| ckz wrote:
| Agreed. So much of it is identity (going back to James
| Clear in Atomic Habits). "I'm not a smoker" is more
| powerful than "I'm trying to quit".
|
| "We just don't watch Youtube on our phones in this house."
| [and you work to develop that into healthy self-confidence
| rather than ego]
|
| Growing up homeschooled, we had the same simmering sense of
| pride in not doing what others (e.g. "public schoolers"
| did). Never had a rebellious teen phase, etc. Some families
| overdid it, but...idk...I'm still quite close to my
| parents, so I never felt stifled.
|
| It makes it -very- natural in life to focus on what my SO
| and I think are _optimal_ and more or less disregard what
| 's normal.
| herewulf wrote:
| It's okay to be "the bad guy". They're your kids, not your
| friends. Too many parents want to be buddies with their kids
| these days. That's just setting everyone up for failure.
|
| My wife and I have a loving relationship with our kids but
| they are quite clear on the fact that we are not equals. The
| distinction will lessen as they reach adulthood and prove
| their responsibility.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| Are they allowed to play games at other kid's houses? Like, if
| they're at their friend's house and everyone is playing Super
| Smash Bros together, but they haven't "graduated" out of the
| board game phase, will they get in trouble for joining in?
|
| In theory I like your idea, but there are so many "edge cases"
| that make it a challenging thing to implement, and something
| that could backfire if its too strict.
| scop wrote:
| Good question. Yes they can play. The main absolute no-go
| activity with friends is something with exploration on the
| internet. That includes things like YT kids. But, hey you
| want to play Smash Bros even though we don't at home, sure
| have fun!
|
| These are not hard and fast rules, more of a system. Our
| youngest plays video games much younger than our oldest kid,
| since we have video games in the house now and didn't with
| your first. However, I still make sure my youngest is getting
| plenty of tactile/analog play in as the majority of time
| spent.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| I like it! Thanks for the explanation of your process.
| ckz wrote:
| This is how we handle it as well. We were at friends' last
| night and the older kids had the N64 out. The older kids
| reported that ours just wanted to be read to the whole
| time, but early doses of things we intend to introduce
| anyway (video games predating modern addictive mechanics)
| are fine at that frequency.
|
| We are mindful of potential Pandora's boxes though. You
| can't ban everything unhealthy without causing long term
| issues. You strive though to only introduce things when
| they're developmentally ready to cope with it, even if that
| means restrictions on yourself as an adult.
|
| You work to constantly provide good examples via your own
| life, compelling narratives, etc. of people who exemplify
| the virtues you want to instill. That's how you help shape
| (the best you can) the life of someone with an innate
| identity to, when necessary, "just say no", or simply be
| uninterested in and unswayed by things that don't conform
| to their value system.
|
| They aren't stifled by rules and wrestling with temptation
| --not valuing YT Kids is just who they are.
| AstralStorm wrote:
| This is way too slow and thus will be only effective in baiting
| your kids to try it early or harder. Or give them an anti-tech
| superiority complex which is counterproductive.
|
| I'd say you need to start actually explaining how things work
| on these more advanced platforms immediately, as well as
| healthy patterns in use so they do not get sucked into it
| forever. And that these things are tools. It can be done ELI3,
| though it's not easy. There are resources abound.
| scop wrote:
| My kids play Minecraft and Sonic all the time these days. The
| key is my kids have developed a sense of how some things are
| different than others and that is good and also bad. It's a
| system that allows and encourages discussion.
| Dwedit wrote:
| How do you explain these kind of ideas to a three-year-old?
| Mr-Frog wrote:
| > anti-tech superiority complex which is counterproductive
|
| I didn't have a phone until significantly after my peers, so
| I used our family computer, Instagram's undocumented API, and
| a variety of SMS forwarding solutions to keep in touch with
| my friends, which I think definitely sparked my interest in
| hacking and a career in software.
|
| I developed a superiority complex, but it was more anti-
| conformity and pro-hacking than anything.
| kridsdale1 wrote:
| This complex is deserved.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| I find the overall approach fascinating, but I chuckled at this
| part because CDs are digital:
|
| "I've developed a analog->digital path for my kids. Before they
| can get a music player, they get a CD player."
|
| If anyone wants to start with analogue, perhaps start with
| vinyl, then cassette tape, and then CD. I had a cassette player
| before a record player, but vinyl seems easier to grok because
| you can use a steel needle to hear the sound, instead of the
| cartridge and amplifier.
| scop wrote:
| Heh, you're indeed right. I use analog in a very loose sense,
| perhaps better said as "tactile". As in "I take a CD out of
| the case, I open my player, I put the CD in the case, I use
| physical buttons to move one track at a time".
| stephenhuey wrote:
| I get what scop meant. Family vehicles had cassette or
| 8-track players when I was a kid and I figured out how to use
| my parents' record player, but for the purposes of what he
| was getting at, CDs are a more "analog" experience than
| streaming music, and give you a feel for what playing an
| album is like. You have to physically put in and remove the
| disc to change the music, whereas streaming gives you any
| song at your fingertips.
| kridsdale1 wrote:
| I think it's fair enough to call a CD analog because the
| data stream is nothing for than wave amplitudes. It doesn't
| use a Fourier transform or compression or require
| "software".
| jedmeyers wrote:
| It does require a digital to analog converter, though.
| lifefeed wrote:
| I like the idea of vinyl for kids too, because of how tactile
| it is, but man, begin with a cheap player and cheap records.
| No matter how old they are, they will play with it like a
| toy.
|
| The good news is my father's old slightly warped prog rock
| records are finally getting a lot of use.
| Dwedit wrote:
| Would not suggest vinyl for kids. That's a needle on the
| record player, it scratches everything up. Not easy to aim
| the arm to the beginning of the track.
|
| Tapes are more foolproof. If you put them in the wrong way,
| the player won't close. And even though you can damage the
| actual tape part by mishandling it, you're not all that
| likely to do so.
| Carrok wrote:
| Buy some cheap records and let them have fun. Many
| turntables have a push button start, no need to aim
| anything.
| javier123454321 wrote:
| The generous interpretation of analog in this case refers to
| the physicality of the CD, not the encoding of the
| information. It's about creating habits that instill presence
| and intentionality, not being a Luddite.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| Yeah that point wasn't lost on me.
|
| Maybe it's due to my age, but CDs don't seem that analog to
| me.
|
| A few things CDs don't have that tapes and/or vinyl do:
|
| - _gradual_ degradation from repeated use
|
| - need for maintenance (e.g. cleaning vinyl with a brush,
| or occasionally splicing a broken tape[0])
|
| - time and effort needed to move to the next song or replay
| the current one (and my first tape deck didn't have a
| rewind button, so I had to eject the tape, flip the
| cassette, forward, then flip back and hope I had gotten to
| roughly the right point)
|
| - the ability to directly manipulate the medium, e.g. using
| a hand to move the record slightly faster, or using a
| pencil to wind a tape
|
| [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXx2nq6dmpg
| j7ake wrote:
| I , of course, allow them to only sing music with their
| voices. Later we introduce percussive instruments, violin,
| and harpsichord.
|
| By 18 they will be introduced to the piano forte.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| What do you do when other kids are on social media or have
| advanced devices early? Your own kids will get exposed to those
| and be upset that they don't have the same things or the same
| access to social media. Maybe they'll even create secret
| profiles and build a wall between themselves and their parents.
| I feel like it's hard to keep society away from one's own
| children.
| scop wrote:
| First of all we foster a very strong community of likeminded
| friends from school, church, and other activities. We don't
| all see eye to eye on every little thing, but we have
| generally the same goal. Second of all is that we talk to our
| kids about it, we try and make these things a conversation.
|
| FWIW we were homeschooling for quite awhile but they now go
| to a school that has a No-Phone policy.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Thanks. When you homeschool how do you create enough
| opportunities for social development?
| ryandrake wrote:
| > 2. The gorilla in the room is that most adults can barely
| handle online media.
|
| I think this is the huge one. Kids can spot hypocrisy easily.
| You can't convince a kid to not get addicted to social media if
| you yourself are addicted. Just like children of smokers know
| their smoking parents telling them not to smoke are full of
| shit.
|
| I do it by 1. not using social media and 2. when I _do_ use my
| phone, set a good example by visibly using it for a specific
| purpose, putting it down after I 'm done doing the task. Rather
| than just sitting there like a zombie scrolling and "consuming
| content." I'm deliberately trying not to normalize sitting
| there scrolling your phone, oblivious to the world around you.
| You can't hide this entirely because every time you go out into
| the world, you see adults everywhere zoned out mesmerized by
| their phones.
| stephenhuey wrote:
| My wife reminds me of this. And as you both pointed out, it's
| not just social media, but the algorithmically fueled
| addiction to endless content. A relative told me their
| teenagers have to use Chromebooks in middle school, and all
| quizzes and tests and homework are done on the computer. Not
| only that, but if they finish a quiz or test in the
| classroom, they're allowed to sit there and watch YouTube
| right there in the classroom until the period is over! When I
| was in middle school, that free time was precious to me
| because I used it to make a dent in my homework so I'd have
| less to do after school. It boggles my mind that school
| administrators would have no clue that kids should have not
| unfettered access to stuff like YouTube in school. As a guy
| who has to work on computers most of the time, I'm very
| grateful my childhood had plenty of analog time, and life in
| the great outdoors on a daily basis!
| Benjamin_Dobell wrote:
| > _Just like children of smokers know their smoking parents
| telling them not to smoke are full of shit._
|
| Wait. Surely these aren't the same. My dad smoked and always
| told us he'd kick our ass if we started smoking. From as
| young as I can remember, I understood it was bad and that he
| was addicted, he had tried, and would continue to try to quit
| numerous times. He didn't often smoke in front of us when we
| were young. He passed away before my own kids were born.
| Emphphysema. At no stage in my life did I ever have any
| desire to smoke.
|
| However, parents using their phone in front of their kids all
| the time. Well it's not obviously harming them, as far as the
| kids are concerned. There are also plenty of legitimate uses
| for technology. Kids can't discern between the two. Heck
| adults regularly can't.
|
| Smoking by comparison is pretty freaking obviously a bad
| idea.
| ckz wrote:
| #1 is exactly what we're doing with ours. The little one
| understands cassettes and the concept of an audiobook or a
| Welles radio drama (sometimes MP3/CD, but I record custom
| cassettes too).
|
| I have a millenium-era iMac set up as the family computer in
| anticipation of introductory computing when old enough
| (probably soon) and learning that digital entertainment is a
| state of mind and place you go to for a time, and then shut
| down and do something else. It's in the living room and off,
| but right now we're just building familiarity with it and
| exploring the keyboard, mouse, etc. and mimicking dad. Right
| now the little one -loves- the physical interaction of a
| typewriter.
|
| The TV is a projector screen that recedes into the ceiling.
| Total screen time for them in the home right now over the past
| ~2.5y is probably...3 hours? Maybe?
|
| My daily driver mobile is a black and white PDA and almost
| never a phone. I don't think my toddler has -ever- asked me for
| my phone and certainly wouldn't think to request, e.g. a video
| on it. Entertainment comes from our books, legos, and trains.
|
| My theory is an accelerated progression through history.
| Mastering technology means understanding where it came from. It
| takes the shine off the modern rectangle of doom if you can
| place it in time and space and your first habits aren't built
| around it.
|
| To @ozim's point, the issue is what has been normalized in
| broader society and so, yeah, we've clearly figured out
| touchscreens and plenty of local places for kids have
| unnecessary TVs. The concerns of other kids/parents introducing
| things to ours too early is mitigated by building a core
| [home]school and social group who shares enough common values.
| The differences between our respective households become
| learning opportunities for everyone.
|
| What's fantastic is that I can go to the grocery store or sit
| in a restaurant for an hour and a half (and even better, two
| flights with a layover!) with no tantrum from a toddler and no
| technology. Just...not even a thought that enters.
| GiorgioG wrote:
| Screen Time (iOS), and teach them to think for themselves. It
| really depends on what kind of personality your kid(s) have too.
| Our son is a rule-follower, so it's generally not an issue once
| he gets past the initial annoyance of not being allowed to
| do/have something.
| turtlebits wrote:
| - Understands responsible use. - Writes a log of when they use
| "screen time", including what they plan on doing (purpose + which
| sites/apps) and for how long. (with a max time limit per day) -
| They only can use it in our common areas when we are around, with
| no expectation of privacy. - Sets a timer and can self stop
| trinix912 wrote:
| > They only can use it in our common areas when we are around,
| with no expectation of privacy.
|
| Sorry, but this just feels completely off-putting and I can
| tell you myself, if I were your kid, I'd find a way to get
| myself a phone, connect to some nearby Wi-Fi and use it all the
| time when you're not looking.
|
| Sure, regulate it time and content-wise, but mandate they have
| absolutely no privacy doing things and it will likely backfire.
| Carrok wrote:
| I was an outcast as a kid, and this was years before social
| media. I think I turned out alright regardless. Your social
| status as a pre-adult doesn't really matter at all once you join
| the real world.
|
| That and I think kids not having any social media will become
| more and more common, so it's not going to be that big a deal.
| anon115 wrote:
| but your competency and how you communicate does.
| Carrok wrote:
| Are you implying that children need social media to develop
| competency and communication skills?
| tokioyoyo wrote:
| If all of your peers are talking about the stuff they saw
| on YouTube, but you're not allowed to, this will naturally
| make you an outcast in that topic. Now, if almost
| everything they talk about in the internet, and you cannot
| relate to it at all, it will hinder your interpersonal
| skills, because you just don't talk to your peers.
|
| I hate how we got here, but watching my nephews go through
| this stuff made me realize you can't cut the kids off
| completely. Ideally, you would live in a community where
| all parents have agreed on the social media limits, and
| slowly get the kids see how others function through it as
| well.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| >I hate how we got here, but watching my nephews go
| through this stuff made me realize you can't cut the kids
| off completely.
|
| Mine are turning out fine. I don't want them to be like
| those other children, and I've kept them away from those
| children. Doesn't seem to have been a problem.
|
| >Ideally, you would live in a community where all parents
| have agreed on the social media limits,
|
| This is a matter of who you choose to
| socialize/fraternize with, not one of geography. But if
| you opt for public school, then you have no real choice
| in the matter.
| AstralStorm wrote:
| Congratulations, you're raising future disgruntled
| outcast class of people who are not integrated with the
| society.
|
| The next step is some canny asshole will take advantage
| of these people by selling them on their superiority or
| offering community, and radicalize them.
|
| It's happened many times.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| > If all of your peers are talking about the stuff they
| saw on YouTube, but you're not allowed to, this will
| naturally make you an outcast in that topic.
|
| There were plenty of kids when I was in school who were
| not allowed to watch TV. Like _at all_.
|
| The real problem is that kids also socialize online now
| so you can't talk about "that time you hung out at
| McDonalds" because everyone was sitting at home on their
| phone instead.
| RandallBrown wrote:
| > There were plenty of kids when I was in school who were
| not allowed to watch TV. Like at all.
|
| The kids I knew like this were definitely ostracized for
| that. Hell, even kids that didn't have _cable_ were
| usually seen as a little weird.
| soulofmischief wrote:
| But if you blame your parents' or guardians' overly restrictive
| dogma for your outcast status then it will likely turn into
| lifelong resentment. Would you want your kid to resent you?
|
| The better alternative is to explore the net together with your
| children and show them that there is a world beyond typical
| social media which is far more interesting and rewarding to
| explore. Encourage them to foster trust and strong
| relationships with people from around the world.
| tivert wrote:
| > But if you blame your parents or guardians' overly
| restrictive dogma for your outcast status then it will likely
| turn into lifelong resentment. Would you want your kid to
| resent you?
|
| That's not a good reason. Would you let your kid take up
| smoking, because they'd resent you if you said no?
|
| Also: My parents wouldn't let me drive until at least a year
| after my peers got their licenses. I didn't like it, but I
| don't harbor a "lifelong resentment."
| AstralStorm wrote:
| That is assuming socials are as dangerous as smoking.
|
| Now they have their dangers of addiction, but that can
| indeed be worked out. As a safeguard, a rate limit filter
| is what I would recommend. Perhaps one that can recognize
| roughly the kind of content watched, so you can have a
| relevant talk.
|
| The self esteem and self-dox part can be really dealt with
| by actually doing the thing together. Otherwise you will be
| at the mercy of peers. Don't kid yourself about how
| powerful your influence is.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| It is absolutely not true that placing limits on your child
| will create lifelong resentment. This is an irrational fear
| on the parents' part.
| sznio wrote:
| >Your social status as a pre-adult doesn't really matter at all
| once you join the real world.
|
| Trauma stays.
| AlexandrB wrote:
| No it doesn't. I was nerdy and "low status" in school. I
| laugh at most of the silly stuff I did or was done to me in
| school. I don't get the mentality of holding onto all that
| stuff forever.
| iskander wrote:
| Lots of practical but low impact suggestions in this thread.
|
| I think the only real answers involve large scale decoupling from
| the rapidly changing social norms. Can you cobble together a
| social group that will go Luddite with you? If not, can you join
| one?
| AstralStorm wrote:
| A good cheater in such a group will prosper heavily due to
| being better informed and connected.
|
| Game theoretically it's a loser proposition. Even with an
| intense price of shunning. It's happened in Amish communities
| many a time.
| cbeach wrote:
| At my kids' school (UK, ages 5-11), many parents have signed an
| online pact to agree not to give smartphones to their children:
|
| https://smartphonefreechildhood.co.uk/
|
| The website lists the number of pacts, broken down by school and
| year group.
|
| My kid is in year 1 (age 5) and the website received pacts on
| behalf of 42 out of approx 60 children in this year group.
|
| Hopefully with a little more publicity, the remainder will agree
| to sign the pact too.
| cbeach wrote:
| Given the website shows all the data for pacts by school, I ran
| it past ChatGPT o1 to look for any correlations.
|
| https://chatgpt.com/share/6786bc74-9e18-800d-b474-d57ef2c107...
|
| "Large, well-attended primary schools in more populous or
| affluent areas tend to have higher numbers [of pacts], whereas
| small primaries, grammar/secondary schools, or independent
| schools with fewer total pupils often appear with lower
| numbers."
|
| I definitely see a relationship in the data whereby affluent
| areas have a higher number of pacts. I wonder if this is due to
| stronger societal cohesion / shared norms in affluent areas?
|
| Whereas in deprived areas in the UK there's more unassimilated
| immigration from cultural groups that self-segregate.
| elforce002 wrote:
| I have a kid (5~8 range) and what we did was to limit PC
| consumption, avoid getting our kid a tablet and cellphone. It has
| been really good and my kid still has his/her innocence intact.
| Hopefully this will continue until adolescence. We're also trying
| to put the kid in different outdoor activities as well as playing
| with him/her (chess, uno, etc...). It's not easy, but is doable.
| rbjorklin wrote:
| Maybe try pushing your community towards adopting
| https://www.waituntil8th.org/
| garrickvanburen wrote:
| I've 4 kids, the youngest is 11.
|
| The rule in the house is; 1) no social media accounts until 13
| and 2) one of your parents will be your 'friend' on that account.
|
| This is actually a pretty great expression of "kids keep you
| young."
|
| But, right now is right now and how kids communicate with each
| other is constantly changing - social media or not.
|
| So, if you're not a parent to a tween or teens now - I'd say you
| have little to actually worry about as the landscape will be
| completely different in a decade.
| giarc wrote:
| >I'd say you have little to actually worry about as the
| landscape will be completely different in a decade.
|
| Could be a lot worse though. Imagine if VR/AR does take off and
| your social media feed is in your eyes 24/7 rather than just
| when you take out your phone.
| garrickvanburen wrote:
| VR/AR won't take off. It'll get better, if only in that our
| moral panic about it will evaporate as it did for comic books
| and video games.
|
| Kids prefer being IRL with other kids w/ or w/o screens.
| wvenable wrote:
| > Kids prefer being IRL with other kids w/ or w/o screens.
|
| Who are these kids you speak of?
| elevatedastalt wrote:
| > one of your parents will be your 'friend'
|
| That doesn't do much since they will just keep the spicy posts
| hidden from the parent.
| garrickvanburen wrote:
| You're presuming a great deal here.
| francisofascii wrote:
| Delay, Deny, Defend
|
| Don't let them have a smart phone until high school. Do not allow
| unlimited use. Do not allow certain apps. No phones in room at
| night. Continually have to "defend" and argue about it.
| jryan49 wrote:
| How are they going to learn how to control themselves when
| you're not around though?
| javier123454321 wrote:
| Just because you're strict in one area doesn't mean that
| you're completely mistrusting everything. You can (and
| should) still teach responsibility in the same way that
| generations have before social media.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| >However, it's undeniable that at that age it's all about fitting
| in and it would likely make them feel like a bit of an outcast if
| I were to limit them from being a part of it, l
|
| Should homeschool. The elimination of peer pressure makes alot of
| these choices dead simple. "But all the other 11 yr olds are
| going to the 3am tattoo orgy" just isn't a counter-argument I'll
| ever hear in my household.
|
| The real trouble is that you're constantly running around playing
| whackamole with the router, there must be 3 or 4 dozen social
| media platforms I have to police. And Youtube, like it or not, is
| probably essential, so it can't be blocked really... my daughter
| is using it today to learn to sharpen knives (wasn't a boy scout,
| never learned it myself). Though, last week I expected that she'd
| want to use it for cheesemaking, but she worked from a written-
| word recipe (was kind of proud of that). Best advice for Youtube
| is to just try to keep an eye on what they gravitate to when
| watching and steer them away from the garbage.
| trinix912 wrote:
| > The elimination of peer pressure makes alot of these choices
| dead simple.
|
| Except you're not really eliminating any peer pressure unless
| you also lock them in your house for their entire childhood
| life. The moment they go out (alone or in your company), the
| peer pressure will kick in simply because "oh look they're all
| on those phones and I'm not".
| OkayPhysicist wrote:
| Homeschooling without a _ton_ of extracurriculars with
| interaction with children their age makes your kids _weird_. It
| completely stunts their ability to socialize.
|
| I did fencing as a kid. It was basically a 50/50 split between
| homeschooled kids and private school kids. It was immediately
| obvious which were which, and the friend groups that formed
| were made almost exclusively of the private school kids and the
| smattering of public school kids.
|
| If you're restricting your children's social life sufficiently
| to avoid peer pressure, you're causing irreparable harm.
| nofunphil wrote:
| Going thru this now with an 11 yo and 14 yo.
|
| It's a non-stop, swash-buckling battle to get them to put down
| their phones and do literally anything IRL. Their attention has
| been completely hijacked, their childhood robbed from them, and I
| feel like it's pretty much a total parent fail on my part. But
| it's the same with all their friends too. Shameful and sad and
| just wrong
|
| At the risk of ridicule, I think we need to incentivize
| kids/people to use social media less. Think, "Touch grass. Earn
| points."
|
| Faroff dot fun
| antisthenes wrote:
| > It's a non-stop, swash-buckling battle to get them to put
| down their phones and do literally anything IRL.
|
| What a bizarre statement. You are their parent. They are 11 and
| 14.
|
| You can physically take their phones away. If they accept it -
| give the devices back. If they keep throwing tantrums - don't.
|
| Obviously that is a last resort, but it seems like you've
| already tried other things and failed.
| nofunphil wrote:
| Do you have kids?
| AstralStorm wrote:
| As a former teen who had parents try this, we were wily
| enough to find the relevant computer power cables quickly.
| And it's harder today.
|
| You won't win this way. The kid will obtain a second device
| and you'll have both a screaming match and an uphill battle.
| Or they will mooch elsewhere and forget about seeing your
| kid.
| AstralStorm wrote:
| Competing with free enjoyment is pretty hard, yeah. I'd
| recommend IRL friends going out, good time to try is a holiday
| or two.
|
| Sports can also be reasonably fun. Kid parties are a thing.
| Etc.
| philshem wrote:
| HN parenting thread...
|
| > Abandon all hope, ye who enter here.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| I can already see a big difference between "kids" that are now 20
| and those that are 10: parents are now way more aware of how
| nasty and exploitative social media are.
|
| Ten years ago parents had zero issue handing their used phone to
| their kid when buying a new one. Now many parents have a "no
| phone whatsover until at least 13 years old" (some even pick an
| older age).
|
| Schools too: it's very common now to have school with a very
| strict "phone stays in the locker or you get disciplined" policy.
|
| I did buy my 10 y/o a "phonewatch" (I'm not calling it a
| "smartwatch" for it's really dumb). A real one, with its own SIM
| card (funnily enough it's a real, physical, SIM card, not an
| eSIM). So she can do what a phone what supposed to allow: give
| and receive phonecalls. Some people shall buy a dumbphone I
| guess. Works too. That watch's screen is so tiny and pathetic
| that it's impossible to anything with it: no TikTok. No
| Instagram. No nothing. (we're in control anyway, with an app on
| our phones, of what goes on the "phonewatch").
|
| Kid knows that she won't have a phone before at least 13. Maybe
| 15. That's the deal.
|
| The thing is: as a parent, you are the boss and you set up the
| rules. A kid is not the boss.
|
| We're no luddite: she's also one hour of Nintendo Switch play per
| day. She can have fun solving "code monkey" coding puzzles on a
| computer. She's allowed to watch a few Minecraft vids.
|
| But mindless media consumerism no a smartphone at 10 y/o, like
| some of the other kids at school are doing as soon as they're not
| at school? No way. We simply don't allow that.
|
| > How do you prevent the impact of social media on your children?
|
| By being the boss.
|
| P.S: as a sidenote good luck bypassing the DNS blocker I put in
| place without an admin account. On my LAN, I'm the boss too. No
| SIM: no SIM to put somewhere else. SIM subscriptions with monthly
| allowed data usage set to 0 bytes works darn well too (we've got
| one such SIM).
| nineplay wrote:
| I don't think this is a good place to go in with hard and fast
| rules. Every kid is different, everything change. What your kid
| wants and needs may be different from everyone else.
|
| Having said that, my broad rule is to keep my kid from any social
| media where their peers rank them and give feedback. No FB, no
| Instagram, they can't host their own youtube channel, etc. That
| is where self-esteem goes to die.
|
| I don't think I allow real-name accounts. I'm hyper-sensitive to
| online predators since a girl I know got assaulted by someone she
| met on 'words with friends'. My kids are lectured to boredom
| about personal identifying information and what not to reveal on
| the internet.
|
| They are allowed Roblox and they spend a lot of time playing with
| their friends there. I'm happy with that, we do Roblox game night
| here ourselves.
| AstralStorm wrote:
| Or you could explain to them how people tend to lie on these
| sites about how they are.
|
| Throttling it for very small kids is a maybe. Real name and
| other anti-dox stuff is also a good practice.
|
| However you do need to also yeah kids that not everyone there
| is a predator or evil with examples, or they will get digital
| anxiety.
| bythreads wrote:
| Pov: (denmark) No SoMe, no smartphones - until 5th grade (class
| agreement and school policy).
|
| No SoMe at all for kids under 13.
|
| No messaging after 20:00.
|
| 1.5 h screentime (ios) maximum a day.
|
| O.5 h enforced reading (actual books) from 17:30-18:00 (we make
| it a family thing - all reading together).
|
| No screens at all at playdates until 4th grade.
|
| No movies or media below age-level ratings without consent from
| parents.
|
| No phones in bed or while sleeping.
|
| Heavy utilization of screentime, unifi network blocks etc.
|
| Works well for us
| tylerc230 wrote:
| A lot of parents at our school signed a "wait until 8" pledge to
| wait until 8th grade before getting them smartphones. This way
| there will be less social pressure from their friends to be
| connected. My assumption is that without a smartphone they won't
| use social media.
| kridsdale1 wrote:
| Meanwhile I spent every minute of free time from 2000-2005
| using phpbb, irc, and aim, on a big CRT and PC
| baxtr wrote:
| I did the same. But sometimes I wonder if that's why I'm so
| unfocused today.
| polski-g wrote:
| The demographics of those online were probably more healthy
| than today.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| Sometimes I feel grief about the fact that I will almost
| certainly never have kids, but then I also feel immense relief
| that I don't have to navigate the extremely complex challenge of
| raising them in the modern world.
| garrickvanburen wrote:
| once moral panic is subtracted out, it's not actually that
| complex.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| How does moral panic factor into this? I don't think being
| worried about the effects of technology on children is a
| moral panic.
| snowwrestler wrote:
| No one participating in a moral panic thinks it is a moral
| panic. They all think they are addressing a real pressing
| issue. That is why moral panics work.
|
| The easiest key is the focus. Am I worried about my kid?
| Not a moral panic, that is literally my job as a parent.
|
| Am I worried about society in general because of all the
| shoddy parenting about screen time? (Or risky play, or
| being home alone, or riding public transportation, etc)
| Then it might be a moral panic.
|
| Along those same lines: am I worried about what all those
| worriers will say about me?
|
| This is what the above comment is referring to. A lot of
| the stress of parenting is amped up by other adults
| (parents or not) who have lots of opinions about whether
| you're doing everything right. Much of this is some
| combination of moral panic and/or self-righteous
| busybodies. If you can learn to tune a lot of that out,
| parenting is less stressful and less complex.
| Trasmatta wrote:
| > No one participating in a moral panic thinks it is a
| moral panic
|
| This argument feels like a Kafka trap
| garrickvanburen wrote:
| Social media within Wikipedia's Media Panic article: https:
| //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_panic#Social_networking_...
| hnthrowaway0315 wrote:
| As a parent, I think it's just taking choices. There is no
| absolute win for either end, just gives and takes. When the
| dust falls we can just hope that we get a bit more takes than
| gives. Most of us just walk on ice and skate to wherever fate
| takes us.
| javier123454321 wrote:
| Here's something I accepted. I will mess up, but I'll focus on
| being a good person that leads by example. The rest is details.
| I don't know what your situation is, and I'm sorry if you are
| unable, but I would wish more people get to experience the
| absolute joy of parenting. It is an exercise of being selfless
| to the point that you are happy doing things that seem
| miserable to others for the only reason that there's someone
| else that benefits from that sacrifice. It's life changing in a
| great way.
|
| P.S. usual caveats that it's ok if not every person has kids,
| There's lots of narcisists, etc. that probably shouldnt.
| However, I feel that in my circles (professional, well
| adjusted, big city people), the bias is against kids. That is a
| massive mistake.
| cdme wrote:
| My kids are too young to use it and I'm hoping all said companies
| have failed by the time they're of age.
| tootie wrote:
| My kids aren't interested but as far as I can tell it doesn't
| have a huge impact on kids. And I don't believe there's any
| convincing research to support it's dangers. I tell my kids to
| not believe everything they see online but that's about it.
| zht wrote:
| what research have you done to lead you to the conclusion that
| it doesn't have a huge impact on kids?
| AlexandrB wrote:
| Good question. I feel my smartphone having a huge impact on
| _me_. I don 't get how kids would be somehow exempt.
| slothtrop wrote:
| I'm thinking ahead of this myself for my kids' sake. Some
| approaches I'm considering:
|
| - NextDNS with device rules/filtering (primarily for adult and
| malicious content). This also has monitoring capability, don't
| think I'll use it though.
|
| - Social media restriction in the early years, but eventually
| allow access through a notebook. This is a more useful creative
| tool and will mediate passive consumption, as they won't carry it
| everywhere with them. Instead it's a log-in at home, when time
| permits.
|
| - I can't imagine a scenario where my kids "need" a phone, but if
| so, dumbphones are an option
|
| Some parents I guess will opt for overscheduling kids as an
| offset, but I think unstructured time is important. Just so long
| as it's not entirely spent on media consumption.
|
| Mostly, right now I should be setting by example. In instances
| where kids are playing alone and I don't have to be hovering over
| them, I'm avoiding excessively reaching for the phone and instead
| pick up a book. Or do nothing.
| dmje wrote:
| Ours are now a bit older - 17 and 20. So - on the one hand, I
| have no experience of kids who have lived an "always-digital"
| life. On the other, I feel I've learned quite a lot about how to
| think about this in a feasible / managed kind of way, and I think
| (?!) that we've emerged with two reasonably balanced kids who
| have both "real" and "digital" lives and a somewhat realistic
| world view. As a concerned nerd I've also been on the case from
| the beginning, worrying about it, trying different approaches,
| etc.
|
| My strongest opinion is probably about the age that kids are
| exposed to this stuff, and the role that parents take (or - more
| often - don't take) in defining what is ok and what isn't ok. The
| headline here is that kids have too many gadgets and too much
| exposure to the online world, and they have this too young. IMO,
| it is not ok for a kid of 7 to be spending all their time looking
| at screens, let alone a kid of 3 or 4. I mean, really, I don't
| think it's ok for my son of 20 to be spending all his time
| looking at a screen either - but in that I now have limited (no)
| control :-)
|
| In this - sorry - but parents of younger kids are often
| complicit. Granted, we all face huge pressure from all corners
| and I totally take on board that social media and the digital
| world in general is built in order to make us addicted, and our
| individual power is limited. But... parents often don't say no
| enough. It's understandable - they're tired, the kid is kicking
| off, pop a screen in front of them, job done. But - parenting is
| hard, and it's always been hard, and you have to work at it -
| whether it's learning to read, fixed bed times, eating
| vegetables. Letting your kid get away with stuff is going to bite
| you / them on the ass at some point. A screen is not a golden
| bullet, and as we all know it's also often actively harmful. So,
| sometimes you'll have to say no, and the kid will cry, and you'll
| be the bad guy - but that's ok. It's always been ok, it's not
| abusive, it's about setting sensible boundaries.
|
| The thing is, you're not going to stunt your kids' social life or
| anything else by not letting them have a phone until they're 13
| or 14. And - tough if they say "all my mates have them" - that's
| been the argument since I was a kid and Matt over the road had a
| Grifter and I didn't. My mum didn't take that shit back then and
| nor should parents now.
|
| The "but all their friends are on there, it's how they
| communicate now" thing - I mean, yeh. But - if I'd spent 20 hours
| a day talking to my mates on the phone or even in person my mum
| would have (rightly) freaked out. It's not ok, and until they're
| 16 or 17, and even beyond! - it's ok to express your opinion and
| apply pressure as much as you can within the constraints of your
| world / network. After all, you're (probably) in charge of the
| PiHole, their phone payments, whatever - so you do have an
| element of control. And as the old trope says - "while you're
| living under my roof, you play by my rules"...
|
| In practical terms - no phones in bedrooms, limited screen time,
| no screens (ever) at the table during mealtimes, some parental
| monitoring of what apps are installed, keeping tabs on email
| inboxes for younger kids. All the usual stuff.
|
| Finally - lest I sound like a loon - all of this should be done
| with open dialogue, even from a very young age. Talking about
| access to pr0n, safeguarding, why unfettered access to social
| media isn't great, what harms this stuff may do, why you know
| better as a parent - all of this is best done in an open,
| friendly way. Open and friendly does not equal "parents are a
| pushover" - but this works best in my experience when you're very
| honest about why you have concerns and are applying the controls
| that you're applying.
|
| Good luck out there.
| tartoran wrote:
| My 7 year old gets access to YouTube and that is about 4 hours
| per week, split between Saturday morning and Sunday morning. His
| content is of his choice but we make sure he watches something
| interesting and we have discussions about what he watches: some
| cartoons and science shows or instructional videos. As far as
| social media goes, we try to keep it as far away as possible and
| instead fill his time with a lot of activities and sports and
| daily time spent outdoors. I noticed when screen time exceeds 4
| hours a week he feels bored and having some minor mood issues.
| frenchmajesty wrote:
| If you are fortunate enough, put your kid in private school where
| smartphones tend to be banned in elementary and sometimes up to
| middle school.
|
| Beyond that, I don't intend to give my kids a device until they
| are 10. (Heavily restricted smart phone) and won't be allowed to
| social media until they are 13-14.
| NetOpWibby wrote:
| I wish I had something helpful to add.
|
| My teenager has been involved with inappropriate texting with an
| assuming friend and the textual contents were, quite frankly,
| disturbing. Therapists say that this is normal these days. Our
| teen has refused to stop being friends with this person and even
| suggested that we just get over it. To that end, her phone is
| locked down with ScreenTime limits but she's somehow getting more
| time.
|
| The influence of other classmates cannot be underestimated.
|
| Hearing from therapists and other parents that we're doing the
| best we can is super fucking frustrating because our best isn't
| amounting to jack shit.
|
| Every kid is different though. Our youngest doesn't seem like
| he'll be much of a problem but we'll see.
|
| I guess I'll end this mini rant with: good luck and godspeed.
| deejatsplit wrote:
| I'd recommend the stuff on this web site and the related book.
| https://www.anxiousgeneration.com/ Lots of good research backing
| this up with some guidance for communities to change the
| environment for their kids.
| INTPenis wrote:
| I don't think you can prevent it anymore than you can prevent the
| impact of advertising billboards, or the news.
|
| Parents should lead by example. Easier said than done I know, but
| parents need to be the idols in their children's lives. Not
| influencers.
|
| If a parent leads by example they will win in the long run
| because influencers are fake and shallow while you're real and
| always there for them.
|
| Children who seek out other role models are children who didn't,
| or couldn't, look up to their parents. This has always been going
| on. Before social media we sought out role models in school or in
| the streets.
| MrMcCall wrote:
| They have never had unmonitored access to the internet. Now that
| they're older, the <18yo boy has a dumb phone for communication,
| and our >18yo daughter has an older iPhone she only uses for
| comms and directions.
|
| They have also not ever had access to drugs, alcohol, or modern
| cinematic fiction, because that would have similarly negative
| effects on their development as compassionate human beings. They
| have also not hung out with children raised in this
| compassionless media landscape.
|
| Remember, people, that your tech overlords don't give a sh_t
| about any of you, except insofar as they can make a buck off of
| you. They don't care one bit about your happiness or the misery
| their products cause; they only care that you can't prove that
| they caused those harms.
|
| They don't care that their "bitcoin"s are burning up our already-
| overheating Earth. They don't care that their LLMs are consuming
| massive amounts of water and electricity. They have sold our
| children's future for a small price.
|
| And they have the temerity to call us "woke" for waking up to the
| fact that our world is run by callous, unscrupulous scoundrels.
|
| Compassion is the essense of humanity. Without it, we are just
| very talented animals perpetuating dumb pack warfare amongst
| packs and within our pack, often for a buck.
| jpm_sd wrote:
| I have 3 daughters. This is kinda working for us, with ongoing
| negotiation.
|
| - No phones before 8th grade
|
| - Phones start out locked down (talk/text only)
|
| - Enable select apps (e.g. Camera, Duolingo) with proven
| responsible behavior.
|
| - No social media apps or accounts
|
| - Youtube and similar are blocked at the router at home
|
| - Computer (Chromebook) use is supervised, mostly
|
| - No phones when you have a group of friends over. Yes I will
| confiscate them.
| TriangleEdge wrote:
| You don't. I have a baby and a teenager and the teenager is
| pretty mind-rotted even tho mild restrictions were in place. Kids
| don't exist in a vacuum and you will only have strong influence
| over them until they turn 12 or so in my experience. The
| environment they are in matters a lot. Other kids, etc.. I am
| very worried about the future of my baby. My main concern is that
| he'll have a hard time being useful since automation looks like
| it'll do everything soon enough. Purposeless people are not good.
| mansilladev wrote:
| When kids were young (< 13), kept them off it for as long as
| possible. In fact, it was forbidden. Friends/colleagues thought I
| was a tyrant (and some thought I was an idiot) for trying to
| shield my kids this way, but those were the rules. Eventually, I
| had to capitulate. But even now, I regularly check in with the
| now much older kids to discourage worthless hours of doom-
| scrolling.
| jzer0cool wrote:
| We can maybe borrow from some past generational issues, but it
| seems old forms of media and societal problems are growing worse
| (e.g bullying, self-esteem, harmful cliques, peer-pressure, etc),
| or are certain areas getting better (e.g. respecting different
| cultures and differences, etc.)
|
| 1990's: TV, Games (e.g. consoles), ... 2000's: Internet, TV,
| Games, ... 2010's: Social Media, Games, Streaming Content, ...
| 2020's: Social Media, Games, Streaming Content, ...
|
| I have to respect all the parents at this time learning to deal
| with such changes and no past to learn from with the
| technological changes. Was there ever a time destructive to
| "reading books too much" (e.g. bookworm)?
|
| Would love to hear thoughts (ideas?) for what ought to be done
| for a new generation of children being born. What can we learn
| from the past here and what are some ideas of the correct
| approaches? Not 100% convinced about banning devices until some
| later time since technology is being integrated also in
| classrooms, so I wonder if that hinders growth.
|
| Wondering all these things as a new parent.
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