[HN Gopher] Track your devices via Apple FindMy network in Go/Ti...
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Track your devices via Apple FindMy network in Go/TinyGo
Author : deadprogram
Score : 212 points
Date : 2025-01-11 12:14 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| a12k wrote:
| Incredibly cool. I am constantly amazed by these efforts and the
| find my network is a really impressive thing. What's stopped me
| from using anything like this ever is the fact that I'm confident
| that at some point Apple will either embrace this sort of
| piggybacking on the network and open it up more officially, or it
| will ban any Apple ID that has ever been associated with such
| things. Right now they know about this and are not commenting
| either way.
|
| Hope in the future either Apple supports this more officially, or
| there is a way to use it with no direct link to my Apple ID or
| account. Until then, I am a spectator in these things.
| jcutrell wrote:
| I think there is some positive effect potential for Apple to
| let this slide. The broader this network is, the more adoption
| it receives. P2P as a super-structure has always been a bigger
| than vendor problem; adoption by any means is likely an
| allowable tradeoff, especially since Apple doesn't have to do
| the work here.
|
| Eventually they will capitalize more on the mesh density,
| rather than crushing the adoption now.
| malmeloo wrote:
| Except that custom tags like these do not require an Apple
| device in order to use them, so the size of the network is
| not increased. They only increase the load on the network.
| FindMy is not a P2P/mesh network; all these tags do is
| broadcast keys which are picked up by iDevices, which then
| upload those reports to Apple.
| koolba wrote:
| Are the keys not tied to known apple products? Or do you
| make them up when you first register a device?
|
| Trying to understand why apple doesn't (or can't?) already
| reject broadcast data from keys that are not apple
| products.
| prepend wrote:
| I would guess because they don't care. The marginal cost
| is zero and I think they would only bother if someone
| ddoses or it becomes an issue.
|
| Until then, more devices are probably positive for
| reducing potential pitchforking.
| malmeloo wrote:
| Two master secrets are randomly generated when pairing
| the AirTag for the first time, which are then saved to
| the iCloud keychain. Those secrets are then used to
| generate a new keypair every 15 minutes (at most), and
| the public key is broadcasted by the tag. Not only does
| Apple not know what the master secrets are in the first
| place (because they're stored in the keychain), but
| that's also an insane number of keys to compare against,
| with no real possibility to precompute them. And that's a
| big win in terms of privacy.
| malmeloo wrote:
| The process of requesting locations for a certain tag is not
| tied to any Apple Account. In the instructions in the README,
| when logging into macless haystack, you can just use a burner
| account.
| nobunaga wrote:
| Is it just me or this whole find my network capability is a
| security nightmare? I mean I understand its usefulness but can
| the [insert authority here] just request apple to tell them where
| this person is even without cellular coverage? Ive decided to
| move away from the apple ecosystem either way because of this but
| it just seems to me to be a surveillance nightmare.
| rgovostes wrote:
| https://support.apple.com/guide/security/find-my-security-se...
| nobunaga wrote:
| Interesting thanks. I understand that its designed to be
| anonymous, but I guess it requires faith in Apple not
| complying to any forceful request from a security authority
| in the US to not modify it in secret.
| CubsFan1060 wrote:
| Of course that can be said for nearly anything you own.
| iPhone, android, tablet, anything that is Bluetooth (for
| instance, your car), etc.
| givinguflac wrote:
| Given apples outright refusal to help the FBI previously I
| have more faith than other companies that they'll do the
| right thing. But nothing's perfect.
| rgovostes wrote:
| Cryptographers who design these systems do consider the
| threat of a malicious future iteration of the company and
| thus try to reduce the trust in a centralized authority.
|
| Apple did fight in court to not have to crack the San
| Bernardino shooter's phone, which probably didn't garner
| much sympathy with the general public, specifically against
| government power to compel them to make changes to subvert
| security.
|
| They also publish a Transparency Report about government
| requests they've received and how many they've responded
| to.
| oefrha wrote:
| > Cryptographers who design these systems do consider the
| threat of a malicious future iteration of the company and
| thus try to reduce the trust in a centralized authority.
|
| It's no use. All the opaqueness to Apple relies on
|
| > This private key pair and the secret are never sent to
| Apple and are synced only among the user's other devices
| in an end-to-end encrypted manner using iCloud Keychain.
|
| Which is trivial to compromise from Apple. They do their
| best to minimize trackability from third parties though.
| Terretta wrote:
| > _Which is trivial to compromise from Apple._
|
| Explain this? Since both Apple and security researchers
| have worked on provable trust.
| snuxoll wrote:
| iCloud Keychain escrow data is encrypted by HSM clusters
| that have administrator keys destroyed; if Apple tried to
| compromise a keychain by installing malicious HSMs users
| would first get notified that their data had been lost
| due to failed/destroyed HSMs.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| It didn't garner sympathy with the public because they
| had previously lied to the public that they were
| technically incapable of complying with those data
| requests. After the government explained how Apple could
| comply, Apple shamefully removed the erroneous claim from
| its website without informing its customers who had
| believed that claim.
|
| All the big tech companies that have user data publish
| government data request transparency reports.
| lathiat wrote:
| If you want to learn more about how this all works in video
| form, there was a talk at 38c3: https://www.youtube.com/wat
| ch?v=nWQcgZfxkOM&pp=ygUMMzhjMyBma...
| Terretta wrote:
| Which mobile phone maker do you have more faith in? Which
| telco?
|
| Apple have done work, and published tools for researchers,
| to make it so they can't "modify it in secret". The tools
| for security research community help verify that and "keep
| them honest". For instance, this is partly what the prompts
| about new devices or log in on other devices are about,
| there's a key exchange happening, and you get told. You can
| also exchange keys with Messages contacts to verify you're
| talking to them. You can turn on iCloud Advanced Security
| and Apple don't get even your backup keys. Also see the new
| Lockdown Mode.
|
| Granted, Apple can change their minds and become anti-
| privacy or pro data-brokers and ad-tech, but some of these
| proofs would break so folks would know.
|
| Anyway, if the government wants to know where you are, they
| can just ask the Chinese who've been watching Americans'
| cell phone identifiers move around.
|
| In seriousness, the telcos already sell* this position data
| to data-brokers and law enforcement have portals to just
| watch you scurry around, even without a warrant.
|
| * Sometimes telcos share your location data in ways that
| aren't "selling" so they can say they don't sell it. But
| the data goes and telcos derive value in exchange.
| malmeloo wrote:
| I think it's worth mentioning that FindMy consists of two
| distinct "networks"; there's the one where other Apple devices
| find your stuff, and another where your devices upload their
| locations straight to Apple. The FindMy app combines these two
| networks to show the most recent location. As far as I can tell
| this project only uses the former network, which would require
| an explicit backdoor due to the way it is designed. But if
| you're trying to defend against government agencies, that
| latter network is probably more of your concern.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| The system is designed specifically to make this impossible.
|
| Your tag doesn't know its position, it simply broadcasts its
| own, _rotating_ public key. Since the key changes randomly (in
| a way that you as the legitimate owner can predict), a third
| party can 't easily follow the tag.
|
| Other devices see that key, and share their position,
| _encrypted with your tag 's public key_.
|
| That makes it relatively hard to get the data, essentially
| impossible without forcing Apple to re-design the system and
| push malicious updates, which is generally considered as
| something that goes beyond what normal subpoenas can do.
| nixpulvis wrote:
| Apple could be subpoenaed to look at the account holder's
| registered tags still, no?
| crims0n wrote:
| If the US government is subpoenaing Apple on your behalf,
| you probably have bigger problems.
| HALtheWise wrote:
| No, because Apple doesn't have the private key of the
| account holder, and so can't see which rotating codes are
| associated with that account holder since it's all
| encrypted.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Is it just me or this whole find my network capability is a
| security nightmare?_
|
| Settings - _your_name_ - Find My - _device_ - toggle off
|
| If you don't trust that this will really disable the feature,
| then you are going to have to think hard about every electronic
| device you own.
|
| Do you trust the firmware in your Android phone? What about the
| non-open-source modem chip? What about the SIM card, which runs
| Java? Are there microphones you haven't noticed built in to
| your TV remote? (Many have them.) Your toaster likely has a
| chip in it more powerful than a networked DOS-era computer.
| (Mine does.) How do you know it's not joining a nearby wifi
| network and sending out information?
|
| Ever since the China/iCloud thing, I don't fully trust Apple.
| But among big tech companies, it's certainly the one that I
| trust the most.
| wkat4242 wrote:
| No they can't. Apple doesn't know who has which tag. It's built
| with privacy in mind. I know Apple listen touts privacy while
| having ulterior motives but I looked at the technical design
| specs and this is pretty great
|
| I doubt Samsung and Google have gone to such lengths with their
| trackers.
| andy_xor_andrew wrote:
| Apple always seems to design services the way a privacy-
| obsessed nerd would, (if you forced said privacy nerd to
| design a P2P tracking network).
|
| It's like, "oh, you want all your photos to be searchable,
| like 'dogs' or 'Eiffel tower'? Fine, we'll create an on-
| device embedding of each photo, use homomorphic encryption so
| you can share it with us and we can match it to its contents
| without even knowing what they are, then we'll send that back
| to your device for storage. Oh, and we'll use a relay so we
| don't even see your IP address while doing this, not that it
| matters since we can't decrypt the content anyway." It's
| pretty wild, like they could have easily skipped all this and
| only a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of users would
| even know or care.
|
| In fact, I was pretty annoyed that the news story from the
| above example was "Apple is looking at all your photos and
| violating your privacy", since they spent so much effort
| doing it the right way, in a way that _respects_ your
| privacy, it makes it less likely they will bother going
| through the effort again
|
| https://www.theregister.com/2025/01/03/apple_enhanced_visual.
| ..
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| You misunderstood the point of the news story. Apple
| automatically opted in everybody's iPhones to sending data
| to Apple, unlike every other company that requires explicit
| opt in.
| izacus wrote:
| > I doubt Samsung and Google have gone to such lengths with
| their trackers.
|
| You are wrong and it's trivially verifiable. You can watch
| this years 38c3 video comparing them or read the nicely
| public specification.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| Google's trackers are more private than Apple's to the point
| of stupidity. https://www.androidpolice.com/google-find-my-
| device-privacy-...
|
| The PMs don't understand that they should be catering to the
| people purchasing the devices.
| bitpush wrote:
| I was without until you made that swipe about Samsung and
| Google. Don't be a fanboy. No company is your friend.
| bloopernova wrote:
| I hope in the future we can determine the position of beacons to
| within a cubic metre or less.
|
| My wife has ADD and she loses items often. Tiles aren't very loud
| and are flaky, we don't have an iPhone to use Airtags. I'm too
| exhausted to try to master the math needed to locate Bluetooth
| beacons, but I wish I could. I'd love for there to be a "just add
| 4 small Bluetooth boards" kind of software project, but it
| doesn't seem to scratch that itch for most open source devs.
| lolinder wrote:
| I also have ADHD, am also constantly losing things, and I've
| had success with the Pebblebee tags. I have a tag on my keys
| and a card in my wallet. The noise is loud enough that I can
| hear it on a different floor in an old home with thick brick
| walls.
| stackskipton wrote:
| That's AirTags with modernish iPhone now.
| tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
| If you know that the item is inside your apartment, you _only_
| need the UWB part, which is quite orthogonal to this project.
| crazysim wrote:
| My partner and I are also Android only and honestly, I'm
| thinking about simply picking up a smashed up iPhone 11 or 12
| mini and exclusively relegating it for precision finding needs
| with AirTags.
|
| I don't think there will be equivalent alternatives, at least
| not ones with ultra wideband precision location functionality,
| availability, acceptable price, and robustness.
|
| On the other hand there does seem to be some UWB support in
| some Android that might work with Tile's UWB:
| https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-to-enable-uwb-on-android-a...
| mook wrote:
| My understanding is that the Motorola trackers have UWB but
| phone support isn't widespread yet. I haven't looked deep
| enough to see if that satisfied your other criteria though.
| namibj wrote:
| https://developer.android.com/develop/connectivity/uwb#uwb-
| e...
| izacus wrote:
| > I don't think there will be equivalent alternatives, at
| least not ones with ultra wideband precision location
| functionality, availability, acceptable price, and
| robustness.
|
| Why are you so confidently spreading misinformation? Samsung
| SmartTag+ exists for years now with this precision and
| capability for Samsung Android phones.
| pests wrote:
| Sometimes people are just incorrect and no ill intent.
| izacus wrote:
| I just don't get why I see so many of people on this very
| site (surprisingly usually Apple or Tesla fans) that so
| confidently spread misinformation about things they don't
| have knowledge of and didn't even attempt to check.
|
| Where does this wish to spread baseless misinformation
| come from?
| pests wrote:
| Sometimes people are just wrong. There doesn't have to be
| an ill intent behind it. Educate and move on. What else
| can you do?
| izacus wrote:
| Which is exactly what I did. And it made people here
| angry.
| mulmen wrote:
| You made an assumption of intent.
|
| You could have just pointed out the Samsung product.
| baxtr wrote:
| How come the first thing you assume is ill intent?
|
| How come you are so certain what the person was trying to
| say without asking a clarification question first?
| izacus wrote:
| What other intent would it be to deliberately come out
| and talk negatively about something?
|
| Why are you so angry because I called out misinformation?
| Is spreading it so normalized to you these days that you
| get angry if someone highlights it?
| baxtr wrote:
| Again you make unsubstantiated assumption about someone
| else's intentions/feelings.
|
| I am not angry at all. I was just wondering why you
| reacted like that. Nevermind
| shermantanktop wrote:
| I'm also a misplacer-of-items. I hot glued an AirTag to the
| inside of my glasses cases but was frustrated at the poor
| signal. Turns out most cases are made of thin metal. Switched
| to a case with a cardboard core and it works great now.
| willseth wrote:
| AirTags are generally loud enough to solve that problem. I wish
| they put the same speaker in the ATV remote.
| CharlesW wrote:
| Not the same, but there are a few options for remote cases
| which support AirTags:
| https://www.elago.com/products/2021-apple-tv-siri-
| remote-r5-...
| kbaker wrote:
| Hopefully the next few years will see Bluetooth Channel
| Sounding take off more. Promises to give every BLE device a
| similar (but less accurate than UWB) distance estimation
| feature.
|
| https://www.bluetooth.com/learn-about-bluetooth/feature-enha...
| 1vuio0pswjnm7 wrote:
| https://media.ccc.de/v/38c3-find-my-101
| wkat4242 wrote:
| Ooooh it looks like you can now use it without a Mac? That would
| be amazing. Because Apple trackers cost only a few euro
| (aftermarket ones of course)
| tomr75 wrote:
| Any recommendations?
| CPLX wrote:
| Trying to parse this and can't tell. Can you use this with
| Apple's AirTags or do you have to create your own tracking
| devices?
| iJohnDoe wrote:
| I was wondering the same thing.
| deadprogram wrote:
| You do need to create your own tracking beacon using one of of
| the devices supported by the TinyGo Bluetooth package:
|
| https://github.com/hybridgroup/go-haystack?tab=readme-ov-fil...
| _-_-__-_-_- wrote:
| Story time. My wife and I were vacationing in Portugal last
| summer. She left her purse in a uber car on the way to the
| airport. The driver found the purse and dumped it after taking
| 20$ and some costume jewellery. We tracked it to an abandoned
| parking lot later that day using an AirTag and we ended up
| finding it using the Location app. We have AirTags in every bag
| now and we change the batteries on a schedule.
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