[HN Gopher] USB On-The-Go
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       USB On-The-Go
        
       Author : jnord
       Score  : 151 points
       Date   : 2025-01-03 12:42 UTC (4 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (computer.rip)
 (TXT) w3m dump (computer.rip)
        
       | crote wrote:
       | > Application notes from several USB controller vendors explain
       | that, oddly enough, the only way to perform role reversal with
       | USB-C is to implement USB Power Delivery (PD) and use the PD
       | negotiation protocol to change the source of power. In other
       | words, while OTG allows reversing host and device roles
       | independently of the bus power source, USB-C does not. The end
       | supplying power is always the host end.
       | 
       | This isn't true. USB PD has both "data role swap" and "power role
       | swap" commands, and they are independent from each other.
       | 
       | It even allows for things like a "fast role swap", where you can
       | unplug the power source from a dock (so power now has to flow
       | from laptop to dock, instead of dock to laptop) without any
       | interruption of the data connection.
        
         | stephen_g wrote:
         | Yes, the article kind of describes the default behaviour, but
         | after the initial source/sink selection one end or the other
         | can then independently request power role swaps and data role
         | swaps, which the other end can either accept or reject.
         | 
         | For example if you ask a USB-C power brick to let you swap to
         | providing it power, it will reject that. Then some devices
         | (like phones, tablets etc.) will only accept power when they're
         | switched off, but will do either when they're on. But some will
         | happily let you switch to device mode and be a sink when
         | they're off, until the battery gets below a certain level and
         | then they'll only accept you providing it power. It all gets
         | quite complex!
         | 
         | The company I work for makes devices that are always in device
         | mode (called upstream facing port or UFP mode) but can provide
         | power when they are plugged in themselves, so have to swap
         | between source and sink. I've spent far too long debugging
         | firmware issues with PD controllers because of this!
        
           | nfriedly wrote:
           | That reminds me of a while back, my phone battery was getting
           | really low, like 1%. I grabbed a power bank and connected it,
           | USB-C to USB-C, and for whatever reason, the two devices
           | decided that the phone should be charging the power bank
           | instead of vice-versa. Then the phone died a few seconds
           | later. (Then the powerbank started charging the phone!)
        
             | smallmancontrov wrote:
             | With apologies to stephen_g, who I'm sure writes excellent
             | firmware, this is the quality of decision making I would
             | expect from median firmware.
        
         | oez wrote:
         | Aren't you agreeing with TFA then?
        
         | dec0dedab0de wrote:
         | It sounds like you're talking about protocol, and the article
         | is talking about implementations.
        
           | danhor wrote:
           | Every USB-C docking station that exposes USB ports while also
           | supplying the attached computer with power uses this feature,
           | letting the computer act as a host and the docking station as
           | the power source
        
         | majormajor wrote:
         | My impression from the article is that what you're saying is in
         | line with it: if you implement PD, you can do either.
         | 
         | It sounded like the line you quote was expressing suprise that
         | baseline USB power supply in USB-C - without implementing PD -
         | can't do that. But apparently could with older USB OTG.
        
       | KingOfCoders wrote:
       | "this was referred to as a null modem cable"
       | 
       | I remember using one to play Fire Power on the Amiga, my first
       | network game.
        
         | nimish wrote:
         | Null modem is also an excellent name for anything vaguely
         | cyberpunk
        
         | treve wrote:
         | Warcraft 1 also supported this!
        
       | thomas-st wrote:
       | I have a power bank that is PD capable, but I cannot charge it
       | from my MacBook even if the MacBook is plugged in to power. I get
       | around it by using a USB-C/A dongle and corresponding USB-C/A
       | cable. Presumably this "downgrades" the connection and since the
       | MacBook doesn't support traditional USB charging it has to charge
       | the power bank. Does USB-C not have a way to indicate that a
       | potential power source is a battery so that the MacBook can
       | charge it if it's plugged in to power, and reverse roles
       | otherwise? Is this a fault how the power bank or macOS implements
       | power negotiation, or is this scenario simply unaddressed in
       | USB-C?
       | 
       | Funny enough, if I plug the USB-C/A dongle on the end of the
       | power bank and the cable into the MacBook, it also won't charge.
       | 
       | I also have a Philips One toothbrush with a USB-C charging input.
       | Similarly, I can't charge it with a USB-C cable directly from my
       | MacBook but have to use A in between (I unsuccessfully tried
       | using either a thinner "lower speed" or a thicker "higher speed"
       | USB-C cable). I'm assuming the toothbrush doesn't support PD, so
       | then why can't it fall back to traditional charging with a C-to-C
       | cable?
        
         | KeplerBoy wrote:
         | By converting to USB A you cut out USB-PD completely from the
         | equation. At that point the macbook simply provides 5V as it
         | would to any legacy downstream device.
        
         | Piskvorrr wrote:
         | It's even simpler, I think: you're forcing it to avoid a PD
         | negotiation, and fall back to the lowest common denominator,
         | "500 mA on the PWR line supplied to the USB device". This goes,
         | I believe, as far back as USB 1.1, as a slow-but-generally-safe
         | power source for things that are barely more than "use USB PWR
         | and GND as a dumb 5V source."
         | 
         | A C-to-C cable, OTOH, doesn't have this requirement, and if
         | there's no PD negotiation, the MacBook is not required to
         | provide power IIRC.
        
         | stephen_g wrote:
         | PD can certainly do it, but most laptops don't choose to
         | support high power sourcing, only providing 5V at max 900 mA
         | for devices or taking high power as a sink (charging the
         | laptop).
        
         | mschuster91 wrote:
         | > I also have a Philips One toothbrush with a USB-C charging
         | input. Similarly, I can't charge it with a USB-C cable directly
         | from my MacBook but have to use A in between (I unsuccessfully
         | tried using either a thinner "lower speed" or a thicker "higher
         | speed" USB-C cable). I'm assuming the toothbrush doesn't
         | support PD, so then why can't it fall back to traditional
         | charging with a C-to-C cable?
         | 
         | Because USB-C says that a power source cannot provide 5V onto
         | Vbus until negotiation has happened to prevent both endpoints
         | of the link "competing" for power which can have disastrous
         | results - for USB-C devices, that is either two resistors on
         | cc1/2 that is pretty dumb 5V, or it is actual bi-directional
         | communication. Early USB-C devices, most infamously the
         | Raspberry Pi 4, various vapes and _likely_ your toothbrush
         | managed to mess that up [1], although I recently came across a
         | flashlight at Lidl which also has broken resistors.
         | 
         | Using an USB-C male to USB-A female adapter fixes this because
         | the adapter has the two cc1/2 5K resistors correctly in place.
         | The adapter can safely do that because - other than early USB 1
         | era hubs - 99.999% of USB-A devices with a separate power
         | source have backfeed prevention, and so the source side will
         | just provide 5V at either 100 mA or 500 mA cutoff.
         | 
         | More sophisticated power source devices will also try
         | negotiation over D+/D- after the sink device has started to
         | negotiate higher voltages using various proprietary schemes,
         | there's controller chips available that speak everything from
         | plain 5V@100mA bootstrap over 5V@500mA USB2 and proprietary
         | schemes up to 20V@3A (and probably, given the newest USB-C PD
         | specs, even higher), without even needing an external
         | microcontroller (but of course, muxing the bus for everything
         | up to USB4/TB should there be one). Absolutely wild.
         | 
         | [1] https://hackaday.com/2019/07/16/exploring-the-raspberry-
         | pi-4...
        
         | noroot wrote:
         | I have the same issue, but the other way around. I cannot
         | charge my laptop (framework 13, amd) from my power bank. Which
         | sometimes would be super useful.
         | 
         | I don't know nor understand why it doesn't work and if it's a
         | bug in the power bank or the laptop
        
           | nfriedly wrote:
           | I have a Framework 13 and I've found that it's fairly finicky
           | about what power sources it will accept. Anything 60W and
           | higher seems to mostly work, but lower wattage chargers are
           | much more dicey.
           | 
           | The one trick I've heard works (but haven't tried) is to
           | "kick start" it by connecting two chargers, one with higher
           | wattage and one with lower, then giving it a minute to begin
           | charging, then disconnecting the higher-powered one.
           | Apparently that's enough to get it past the initial issue and
           | then it will continue charging (more slowly) from the lower
           | wattage charger.
           | 
           | There was a firmware update a while back that was supposed to
           | improve things, but it didn't change the behavior with my 27W
           | charger.
        
         | Kirby64 wrote:
         | > Does USB-C not have a way to indicate that a potential power
         | source is a battery so that the MacBook can charge it if it's
         | plugged in to power, and reverse roles otherwise? Is this a
         | fault how the power bank or macOS implements power negotiation,
         | or is this scenario simply unaddressed in USB-C?
         | 
         | USB-C does support this. It's known as a DRP (Dual Role Port).
         | USB PD can be used to signal switching between downstream and
         | upstream facing ports depending on state of charge of the
         | battery for instance. The problem is that many devices do not
         | support this, and I strongly suspect your power bank is the
         | issue here. iPhones and Apple stuff in general supports DRP
         | renegotiation quite well. They tend to be USB-C compliant as
         | much as possible, which can lead to issues with interfacing
         | with 'USB-C' devices that are not actually properly compliant.
        
           | quesomaster9000 wrote:
           | I'd have thought that iPhones would have sane defaults with
           | USB-C, but it's a real pain when using USB-C to provide
           | tethered internet to a laptop. No, I don't want the phone to
           | charge the laptop, they both have batteries of their own
           | 
           | And there's seemingly no way to get the phone to not try to
           | charge things regardless of what the other side thinks (and
           | when plugging the laptop in, it starts to charge the phone).
           | 
           | The alternative would be using WiFi (in a very RF polluted
           | space) or Bluetooth (horribly slow), versus USB-C where 5g
           | via my phone in Bangkok can get 250mbit easily. Whereas my
           | Android phone has options for 'data only' etc. without
           | charging which seems like it's more of a UX 'Apple' thing
           | than anything else.
        
       | MarkusWandel wrote:
       | USB-C has obfuscated things but I was hoping the following would
       | work:
       | 
       | Buy a Y-cable from Ali Express that has USB-C male to plug into
       | the phone, and both USB-C female and USB-A female sockets. Plug
       | keyboard into the USB-A and the charger into USB-C.
       | 
       | But it doesn't work, and I suspect it's a software limitation at
       | least on my phone (Moto G Play 2023). If the charger is plugged
       | in first, the phone will charge but not use the keyboard. If the
       | keyboard is plugged in first, the phone will use it, but not
       | charge. I think the wires are there to make it all work, but the
       | phone's OS just doesn't support this scenario. Pity.
       | 
       | Needless to say documentation is nonexistent so I don't actually
       | know what's in the cable. For all I know, the two female sockets
       | are just connected in parallel.
        
         | nucleardog wrote:
         | My wild guess would be that, yes, that cable is just a naive
         | splitter. The only real use case I could think of that would
         | work would be taking a USB-C port and making it accept either
         | USB-C or USB-A devices without having to dig around/swap
         | adapters/etc. I say that because as far as I'm aware (though
         | I'm having trouble digging up an authoritative source right
         | now), there's no way for USB devices to share data lines. Even
         | cheap "passive" hubs and things all have ICs to present
         | themselves as a USB device and sit between the host and the
         | downstream devices. With the older USB specs you could still
         | get some power even without the data lines, but with USB-C you
         | need the data lines to negotiate power delivery. I don't think
         | there are any software-level changes would make that setup
         | work.
         | 
         | If you are looking for a solution though (albiet a bit bit
         | bulkier one) it's likely any of a number of "USB C hub" or "USB
         | C dock" products would work there. Most have a USB-C port
         | marked "PD-IN". Plug the hub into your phone, plug your power
         | into the PD-IN, and use the USB-A/other ports to connect your
         | other devices. Run you like $20 from the usual suspects.
        
           | MarkusWandel wrote:
           | Thanks for that. The longer-term goal is to make a "dock" for
           | my elderly mom's phone that lets her use it as a tiny (her
           | eyes are still good) pseudo-desktop setup with keyboard and
           | mouse. She often ends up with her phone as her only
           | communications device when things go wrong (again) on her
           | laptop and this would give a good email experience (she's a
           | skilled touch-typist). Any pointers to a cheap USB-C dock on
           | Ali that does the job?
           | 
           | Sadly, one limitation, at least on the Android device, is
           | that you can't use it in landscape mode with a mouse. Well,
           | you can, but the launcher only operates in portrait mode, as
           | do a lot of apps. I don't want to change the launcher -
           | elderly folks get very fixated on how their device is
           | supposed to work. Anyway as soon as the phone switches to
           | sideways-portrait mode, the mouse also does which is very
           | disorienting.
        
         | bluGill wrote:
         | USB-C never defined a Y cable and so they never figured out how
         | that would work. If such a cable works anywhere it is either
         | luck, or there is some chip inside that checks for power
         | messages from either end but otherwise looks like a straight
         | through cable. Even then it will be tricky because if the two
         | devices want different voltages from the charger only one can
         | get their way.
         | 
         | I can't blame the USB-C people for not working on this case. It
         | is a lot harder than it seems to make work, and of limited use.
         | Just get a USB-C hub if you need this ability.
        
           | MarkusWandel wrote:
           | Heh, if you want a really atrocious USB power violation...
           | Costco sold some extremely bright flashlights (think car
           | headlight bright, and also usable as a self-defense weapon in
           | the spirit of the old D-cell Maglites) before Christmas, that
           | have an USB charge socket. Needless to say they include a
           | charge cable but no charger.
           | 
           | But this thing wants 1.5A at 5V. And doesn't do any power
           | "negotiation" at all, as far as I can see. It happens to work
           | because modern smartphone chargers can do 5V at 2A by
           | default. But plug it into any older charger and the charger
           | immediately shuts down due to overcurrent.
           | 
           | I have one of those USB passthrough voltage/current meter
           | gadgets. Yes, it draws 1.5A. I guess what it should be doing
           | is slow-charge unless it can negotiate for more power. It's a
           | very decent flashlight otherwise.
           | 
           | Oh, it also has two USB-C sockets. A red one for charging,
           | and a black one for using the flashlight's substantial
           | battery as a power bank. I don't know what would happen if
           | you plugged the charger into the wrong socket and don't have
           | the courage to try.
        
             | nfriedly wrote:
             | > _Oh, it also has two USB-C sockets. A red one for
             | charging, and a black one for using the flashlight 's
             | substantial battery as a power bank. I don't know what
             | would happen if you plugged the charger into the wrong
             | socket and don't have the courage to try._
             | 
             | USB-C does a bit of negation before putting our any
             | significant amount of power. There's a "dumb mode" that
             | just uses a pair of half-cent resistors and is fine for up
             | to 3A at 5V, and then the "smart" PD (Power Delivery) mode
             | that does a digital negotiation and can do much higher
             | wattage.
             | 
             | All that is to say that if you plugged the black USB-C into
             | a charging brick it'd probably just fail the negotiation
             | and nothing bad would happen. Both sides would have to be
             | violating the spec for it to be a real hazard.
             | 
             | Annoyingly, some really cheap devices skip out on even the
             | dumb mode resistors to save a penny, and so even though
             | they have USB-C ports, you have to charge them with USB-A
             | to USB-C cables (because USB-A ports always provide power,
             | no negotiation required.)
             | 
             | Those devices are where the cheap Y-cables come in handy,
             | because they usually include the required resistors + give
             | you a USB-A port.
        
               | lupire wrote:
               | No need for weird racism.
               | 
               | American companies like Skullcandy do this too.
        
               | nfriedly wrote:
               | Fair enough, edited.
        
               | MarkusWandel wrote:
               | The flashlight comes with an USB A->C charging cable, as
               | do the (low end) smartphones we have (along with USB-A
               | power adapter for the phones). Thus probably no PD
               | negotiation. Right?
        
               | nfriedly wrote:
               | Aah, yes, the USB-A side always provides power, no
               | negotiation needed for that aspect. There is still
               | supposed to be some level of negotiation before drawing
               | that much current (often just checking resistance,
               | similar to the USB-C "dumb" mode), but obviously the
               | device skipped that also.
        
               | ianburrell wrote:
               | A lot of flashlights and cheap gadgets have USB-C port
               | but can only charge from USB-A port. The reason is that
               | they cheaped out on including the resistors that signal
               | legacy USB mode. The USB-C to USB-A cable has the
               | resistors.
               | 
               | The smartphones should have proper USB-C port, I haven't
               | heard of one with charging problems, and included USB-A
               | cable cause cheap.
        
           | xg15 wrote:
           | Isn't this exactly what USB-C docks are for?
           | 
           | I've seen plenty of those devices, where you have a female
           | USB-C socket to connect a charger to, a range of other female
           | USB-C, USB-A and other ports for peripherals and a short
           | cable with a male USB-C plug to connect to a laptop. If
           | everything works, the dock will act as a power source for
           | both the peripherals and the laptop, but will act like a hub
           | on the data lines, with the laptop being the host.
           | 
           | I wonder if it would work just the same if you connected a
           | phone instead of a laptop to the "host" cable.
        
             | bluGill wrote:
             | That is what a dock is for. OP wants a simple and cheap
             | cable instead which isn't really possible in the generic
             | sense (though it might work in some limited way)
             | 
             | I've connected my phone to the host cable of a dock before
             | and everything worked. (I didn't try the HDMI output, but
             | sound on the dock just worked)
        
               | MarkusWandel wrote:
               | The docks we have around here at work all use Displaylink
               | chips. So it would work if the phone had the (software)
               | Displaylink driver, no Displayport video capability
               | required on the USB-C port. But I'm guessing that's
               | unlikely.
        
             | MarkusWandel wrote:
             | Hmmm, it occurred to me, I'm sitting in front of a laptop
             | connected to a (power delivery) USB-C dock. So unplugged
             | the laptop and plugged the cable into my phone instead
             | (very basic, Moto G Play 2023). What happened? Almost
             | nothing! The phone reported an audio output device, but did
             | not charge, and the keyboard and mouse plugged into the
             | dock did not get recognized either. Not encouraging.
        
               | MarkusWandel wrote:
               | Well, the Kensington dock at work did not work (for
               | delivering power to the phone and letting keyboard and
               | mouse be used) - in fact it did none of those things. But
               | ordered this cheapie from Ali:
               | 
               | https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005007015739540.html
               | 
               | which does claim to work with various smartphones. We'll
               | see.
        
               | xg15 wrote:
               | Would be interested to know that as well. Good luck!
        
         | harrall wrote:
         | While not in a Y cable format, there are small USB-C hubs that
         | can do this.
         | 
         | If I plug a NVMe drive into my iPhone, my phone will run out of
         | battery so quickly so I have to use a hub and plug in my
         | charger at the same time.
        
       | CableNinja wrote:
       | This article, and all comments, have reminded me yet again of my
       | anger at the not so universal USB formats.
       | 
       | I had been designing a device that heavily relied on USB, as its
       | primary goal was to be basically a USB switching station, where
       | you plug your systems and USB into the device and then can swap
       | around which USB is connected to any of the connected systems.
       | 
       | I started during the early USB3x days, and by the time i had a
       | completed design, had to rip out and redo large chunks because
       | the damn USB spec changed with all their 3.x super premium plus
       | ultra speed bullshit. And then... fucking USB c. yes, you dont
       | have to figure out which way the cable goes now, but hardware
       | designers are suffering because of the shenanigans that is USB.
       | My entire project was effectively scrapped because i didnt want
       | to deal with the power draw bullshittery. Before PD it was easy
       | enough for me to manage the power, but now, i need a whole load
       | of supporting circuitry and have to touch datalines which my
       | original goal was to avoid.
       | 
       | In short, i hate USB and its gone the way of the SCSI cable;
       | getting more and more weird every year
        
         | TheAmazingRace wrote:
         | Honestly, SCSI was more straightforward than the quagmire that
         | is current USB standards, especially over Type-C. I can't trust
         | the quality of cables or what they are capable of on the
         | surface. I really need to do my homework to ensure I get the
         | right transfer speeds and power delivery.
         | 
         | Once I was charging my SteamDeck using a cable I thought was
         | quality, and the darn connector bit felt alarmingly hot to the
         | touch. Turns out the cable wasn't certified for PD applications
         | and was better for 5V @ 4.5W...
        
           | Tharre wrote:
           | Just to avoid confusion, there is no such thing as a "PD
           | certified" usb-c cable. All usb-c cables, by any version of
           | the standard, have to safely support at least 3 amps at 20V.
           | And for 5 amps they have to contain an active marker chip
           | that's involved in the PD negotiation.
           | 
           | Any cable not fulfilling these requirements isn't allowed to
           | called a usb-c cable, though I'm sure certain foreign
           | manufacturers don't care.
        
         | tredre3 wrote:
         | > you dont have to figure out which way the cable goes now, but
         | hardware designers are suffering because of the shenanigans
         | that is USB
         | 
         | With all due respect, this is the way it should be. Hardware
         | designers are inconvenienced so that millions of users don't
         | have to be.
        
       | bloopernova wrote:
       | Somewhat related: For USB C cables, get a CaberQU pin/line
       | checker: https://caberqu.com/
       | 
       | The current model displays active lines, but there's a
       | Kickstarter for one that shows more information:
       | https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/electr/ble-caberqu-a-di...
        
         | causi wrote:
         | Wow that is some _massively_ overpriced crap right there. Forty
         | dollars for a USB continuity tester with a basic plastic case
         | that only does type-C cables. Meanwhile you can get one, with
         | acrylic case, that does types A, B, C, Micro, and Micro 3.0 for
         | $17 off Amazon or $11 off Aliexpress.
         | 
         | https://www.amazon.com/Treedix-Tester-Checker-Acrylic-Chargi...
        
           | Tharre wrote:
           | It's not just a continuity tester like the one you linked
           | from amazon though. The Kickstarter page is light on details,
           | but it can at the very least communicate with active cables
           | to determine amperage and data speeds.
           | 
           | Add to that a microcontroller, screen and software and the
           | price doesn't look unreasonable to me, especially for a small
           | project like this.
        
       | aidenn0 wrote:
       | There were also digital cameras that supported OTG in order to
       | print to portable printers (usually just one or two models made
       | by the same manufacturer).
        
       | p0w3n3d wrote:
       | Android is a Linux. This means that it can have a keyboard, mouse
       | and other periferials. You could (and probably can) even burn a
       | CD using an Android phone. One of the nice things in OTG was to
       | connect an external screen which is turning the phone to a full
       | blown computer. Or a media player...
       | 
       | HAHAHA! NAIVE PERSON!
       | 
       | You couldn't watch Netflix on USB OTG. Because... because of...
       | REASONS YOU STUPID PIRATE!!! OR FUTURE PIRATE!!! OR FUTURE WANNA
       | BE PIRATE! YOURETOCLOOSSEETOBEEINGPIRATEYOUPIRATE!
       | 
       | ____
       | 
       | disclaimer: I do not want to offend anyone. Above sentences are
       | what I hear in my head when I see that my phone with USB
       | OTG/USB-C is not showing the video on my tv or monitor, or even
       | showing but only subtitles.
       | 
       | disclaimer 2: connecting screen using USB OTG was called MHL, not
       | all devices had (has?) it
        
         | scarface_74 wrote:
         | Android being based on Linux doesn't mean it has all of the
         | capabilities of a Linux distribution anymore than iOS being
         | based on BSD or even more relevantly being a fork of MacOS
         | means it can do everything that Macs can do.
         | 
         | As far as connecting an external monitor, that's a standard USB
         | C alt mode that your phone doesn't support.
         | 
         | https://www.benq.com/en-us/knowledge-center/knowledge/usb-c-...
         | 
         | My iPhone 16 can send video and power to my USB C portable
         | monitor over one cord. It can only drive the monitor as far as
         | power up to 50% brightness.
         | 
         | If I plug in a separate power supply to the second USB C port
         | on my monitor I can run my monitor at full brightness and the
         | monitor will charge my phone while my phone is sending it
         | video.
         | 
         | https://imgur.com/a/wyV4ReK
         | 
         | Of course my laptop supports powering and video at full
         | brightness over one USB-C port
        
           | p0w3n3d wrote:
           | What I describe is my genuine experience. I had a phone with
           | usb otg with MHL. And netflix app didn't send video to the
           | screen of the TV. It sent only text of subtitles. Because of
           | some stupid limitations.
        
             | scarface_74 wrote:
             | MHL is different than using the more modern USB-C Alt mode.
             | In the image link I posted above, that was my iPhone
             | connected via USB C watching "Breaking Bad" on Netflix
             | while I was waiting on my flight in a Delta lounge.
             | 
             | This is totally the fault of your hardware for not
             | supporting part of the USB C standard.
             | 
             | Even Google just started supporting it last year.
             | 
             | https://www.androidpolice.com/google-pixel-9-display-
             | output/
        
             | Tharre wrote:
             | I'm honestly a bit confused about what your actual point
             | is. Most people would agree that HDCP is hostile to
             | consumers, but what does any of that have to do with USB or
             | for that matter android? It sounds to me your problem is
             | that your particular MHL implementation just didn't support
             | HDCP. And AFAIK MHL has nothing to do with the USB standard
             | other then reusing the connector to speak their protocol.
        
               | p0w3n3d wrote:
               | You're right, if this MHL implementation didn't have HDCP
               | it would behave exactly like that. Sad.
               | 
               | My thinming is square. I still connect my monitors using
               | SVGA and watch movies on them. Truly this sounds to
               | really complicated that a phone which is indeed a
               | computer cannot do computer things. My first android was
               | closer to my Linux than every each version following. My
               | colleague had SSH server on his Motorola phone. What I
               | moan about is that limiting, strangling list of changes
               | made to browsers and systems that is happening right now
        
               | Tharre wrote:
               | > Truly this sounds to really complicated that a phone
               | which is indeed a computer cannot do computer things.
               | 
               | I agree with that point, but I don't think that's what's
               | happening here.
               | 
               | Go back a couple of years and you'll find tons of posts
               | of people trying to get Netflix working on linux. People
               | did find various workarounds of course, including really
               | stupid things like changing the user agent of your
               | browser, but it really wasn't working out of the box like
               | it should.
               | 
               | So the problem really isn't that your pocket computer
               | can't do computer things, but that HDCP is doing what
               | it's designed to do, restrict people from using video
               | streams in a way not envisioned by the designers. The
               | fact that this is a (legally) legitimate use-case doesn't
               | matter, it's just collateral damage.
        
               | scarface_74 wrote:
               | > Go back a couple of years and you'll find tons of posts
               | of people trying to get Netflix working on linux
               | 
               | That's exactly what is happening. The newest Google
               | Pixels phone that support DisplayPort alt-mode over USB C
               | should work with the Netflix app.
               | 
               | You're over indexing on Android being based on Linux
        
               | Tharre wrote:
               | > That's exactly what is happening. The newest Google
               | Pixels phone that support DisplayPort alt-mode over USB C
               | should work with the Netflix app.
               | 
               | ? I think you misunderstood something, but yes this works
               | now also with usb-c alt modes on newer laptops on linux,
               | hence the "go back a couple of years" part of my post.
        
               | scarface_74 wrote:
               | > Truly this sounds to really complicated that a phone
               | which is indeed a computer cannot do computer things
               | 
               | An iPhone with USB C supports most of the standard
               | protocols you would expect - video, Ethernet, audio,
               | external storage (USB 2 speeds on non Pro models and
               | 10Gbps on pro models), and wired keyboards and mice.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | > Android is a Linux.
         | 
         | Can you run unmodified LibreOffice or Wine on it? I can on my
         | Librem 5.
        
         | nine_k wrote:
         | I suppose you cannot watch Netflix on anything not having a
         | certified DRM-supporting display tract, up to the encrypted
         | HDMI interface. Were it not so, you could _PIRATE_ a movie for
         | free! (Now you need to pay for a $30 HDMI splitter, or
         | something.)
         | 
         | I don't do Netflix, so I don't care. Youtube works fine.
        
           | p0w3n3d wrote:
           | Yeah all I think about when I connect a device to a monitor
           | is PIRATING ARRR!
        
         | mmmlinux wrote:
         | Does android actually support USB CD drives?
        
           | dotancohen wrote:
           | Reading, yes. Writing, I have not tried.
        
             | p0w3n3d wrote:
             | I believe I have seen an external CD drive for android, but
             | not sure. It was quite expensive, but maybe because it was
             | having some middleware
        
       | jsmith45 wrote:
       | In my experience not many OTG devices actually used
       | (mini-/micro-)AB ports, instead using just normal (mini-/micro-)B
       | ports. The adapters generally just used a (mini-/micro-)B plug
       | with the id pin wired like an OTG A plug. This does mean you can
       | technically connect these adapters to non OTG products, which the
       | spec writers wanted to avoid, but this simply meant the adapter
       | didn't work.
       | 
       | I also have some peripheral devices with a captive micro-B cable
       | (with ID pin configured like like micro-A) that were specifically
       | intended to be used with OTG compatible phones.
        
       | DidYaWipe wrote:
       | Man, I hate that name. Why not just call it "host mode," which
       | actually conveys information?
        
       | lxgr wrote:
       | Back in the day when cameras still took better photos than
       | phones, I've always wanted to backup vacation photos without
       | bringing a computer.
       | 
       | I still remember getting so close with the Google Nexus 4 to
       | being able to connect an SD card reader. It supported OTG, but
       | did not have the required charge pump to supply 5V of VBUS.
       | (Supposedly you could hack together something using a 9V battery,
       | some resistors, and a kernel patch, but that was a bit more than
       | I was willing to risk for the convenience.)
       | 
       | Finally, the Nexus 7 and Nexus 5 supported it out of the box, and
       | while Android didn't offer a FAT32 implementation back then,
       | there was (is?) a USB host API which let apps supply that
       | instead, and I think somebody actually ended up implementing
       | FAT32 in userspace to make it all work!
        
         | netsharc wrote:
         | I went on a long trip with a mirrorless camera and a SanDisk
         | 500GB portable disk. My "computer-less" backup solution was a
         | Pi-esque machine with USB3 (a RockPi), a powerbank, a card
         | reader, and connecting my phone over USB and tethering it. This
         | gave the RockPi an IP I could ssh into, and I'd ssh from the
         | phone and ran rsync to copy the images from the SD card in the
         | reader to the SanDisk portable drive.
         | 
         | I should make a custom Linux image for the Pi4+ (the whole
         | process is probably too slow without USB3) and some automation
         | (Jenkins?) to do this, I'm sure there's photographers who'd
         | find it useful.
        
       | nfriedly wrote:
       | > _[1] My first smartphone was the HTC Thunderbolt. No one, not
       | even me, will speak of that thing with nostalgia. It was pretty
       | cool owning one of the first LTE devices on the market, though.
       | There was no contention at all in areas with LTE service and I
       | was getting 75+Mbps mobile tethering in 2011. Then everyone else
       | had LTE too and the good times ended._
       | 
       | I also had the HTC Thunderbolt and remember getting ~75Mbps
       | initially. My wife's family lived way out in the countryside in
       | Illinois and had something like 2Mbps DSL internet. But on one
       | visit, I realized that if I walked down the road a short distance
       | to the top of a hill where I had line of sight to what turned out
       | to be a Verizon tower, I could still get ~75Mbps! I took
       | advantage of that once or twice to get things downloaded in a
       | more reasonable amount of time.
        
       | qwertox wrote:
       | > for most of the '90s RS-232-ish serial and its awkward sibling
       | the parallel port were the norm for external peripheral
       | 
       | The parallel port was a nice way to have GPIOs in a computer back
       | then. A bit like the GPIOs in today's SBCs, but more rudimentary.
        
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