[HN Gopher] Uncut Currency
___________________________________________________________________
Uncut Currency
Author : nxobject
Score : 181 points
Date : 2025-01-06 06:12 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.usmint.gov)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.usmint.gov)
| percentcer wrote:
| Why do these sell for so much more than the value of the note?
| buryat wrote:
| You cannot join multiple bank notes into a single sheet of
| paper, that's why it's valued more than separate bank notes.
| Aloha wrote:
| I mean thats how're they're printed as large sheets - these
| are just uncut.
| buryat wrote:
| yes, but the only place where to buy the sheets of $2 bills
| is at the US Mint so they can set any price. It's another
| form of Seignorage
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seigniorage, where the
| government gets to keep the difference between the cost of
| producing these coins and/or notes and keeps the difference
| as this money is unlikely to be back in circulation. Same
| thing happened with the 50 states collectible 25c, it's
| estimated that the US got $6B because people remove them
| from circulation.
| eru wrote:
| Btw, I wonder what strategy would lead to maximisation of
| Seignorage (in inflation adjusted terms).
|
| Ignoring collectors items for a moment, I suspect keeping
| inflation low will lead to higher absolute monetary
| balance held by the public, more than making up for not
| raking in much in 'inflation tax'.
|
| See eg how the Bank of Japan could pump out lots and lots
| of money to be held by the general public, when their
| inflation rates were low or negative.
| buryat wrote:
| I doubt that we have a huge paper notes mass being
| hoarded in the US, most of it should be circulating
| pretty constantly. I see it important for exports as the
| US gets to produce paper that we send over to other
| countries in exchange for goods. They store it and we
| never pay back as long as our economy, technological
| progress, science, higher education, cutting-edge
| healthcare, entertainment, army stay ahead of others then
| we never ever going to pay back. And Nixon shock where
| the US dollar stopped being pegged to gold showed that
| power to others since no one in the world would stop
| using the US dollar just because it's value now is
| measured how the US can dictate
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock).
|
| Most Americans shouldn't keep their money in savings and
| should invest into the stock market because it's a
| reflection of our collective economical input. And if you
| just keep it in Savings then it'll keep up with the
| interest rate which doesn't change the stored value, so
| what's the point? While in big indices there always going
| to be winners because that's just the nature of the game,
| so by betting on winners you are going to outrun the
| interest rate by capturing this additional value that is
| being created. And people working for these winning
| companies and startups are very interested in beating the
| interest rate, they're mostly shareholder aligned as they
| themselves are equity holders. If you don't have equity
| you're working in, it still makes sense to bet on winning
| companies since those people are vey much equity aligned
| and just want to capture the market share.
|
| Pension funds, 401k are all tight to various investments,
| indices, etc. that are all reflection of the total
| economy. And I see it as my participation in the broader
| economy as I spend money that creates jobs and creates
| new economic exchanges further, and as a shareholder I
| capture that value back anyway. People should keep their
| spending at their social level if they want to keep the
| economy going smoothly.
| Aloha wrote:
| Because its a novelty gift item.
| golem14 wrote:
| You can sign up to be on the waiting list for a lucky Panda $2
| note, with a nice red envelope and a serial number starting
| with '888'.
|
| I mean, it's a nice gesture, and maybe annoying the heck out of
| certain Presidents.
|
| The price for this $2 note + red envelope is >$10.
| bn-l wrote:
| $10 is taking advantage.
| ndileas wrote:
| Yes, and? Fools and their money, etc. No one is forcing
| people to pay these rates. If someone wants to buy one
| that's their business.
| kube-system wrote:
| Blowing $10 on entertainment hardly makes anyone a fool,
| though. It's $10 worth of novelty for $10.
| xbmcuser wrote:
| If I recall correctly this is because someone found an infinite
| money glitch and used a credit card that had a big cash back.
| So he would buy the bills then deposit into his bank account
| and pay of his credit cards. So now they increased the price to
| more than the face value.
| _alex_ wrote:
| That was with the dollar coins
| Scoundreller wrote:
| I miss Fatwallet
| sureIy wrote:
| But that's just stupidity of the seller. You must account for
| credit card fees when you sell _anything_.
|
| Here the issue is that they're several times more expensive
| than their printed value, hardly the same issue.
| sureIy wrote:
| Collectors.
|
| Basically the mint found a way to make more money than they
| print.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| Because that's what people are willing to pay for them.
| BobAliceInATree wrote:
| 1) They're novelty collector's items.
|
| 2) Selling individual sheets has a lot more overhead per
| sheet/bill than selling fresh stacks of bills to banks.
| ziofill wrote:
| Would it be legal to use a sheet like that as currency?
| kxrm wrote:
| Yes. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/steve-wozniak-2-dollar-
| bil...
| buryat wrote:
| It's not considered legal tender since it's not a note, it
| doesn't have to be accepted. The cut out notes don't have to be
| accepted either as it's difficult to determine the authenticity
| of the sheet itself.
| em500 wrote:
| Sellers are largely free to choose what form of payment to
| accept or refuse, regardless of "legal tender" laws. The
| concept is much more narrow than commonly assumed:
| https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12772.htm
| buryat wrote:
| Yes, I wasn't sure about the exact legal code around it,
| hence I said "it doesn't have to be accepted" and provided
| a potential explanation that the counterparty can present.
|
| In the cited Section 31 U.S.C. 5103 it says:
|
| > Federal Reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal
| Reserve Banks and national banks
|
| What would be the legal definition of a note sheet? Is it a
| note or not? A collection of bank notes? The bank notes
| have pretty specific definitions down to the specific
| measurements up to a certain precision. Would a music note
| sheet fall under this definition as well? I don't see what
| the US mint sells as a legal tender given the strict
| definition of bank notes themselves.
| eesmith wrote:
| US Mint FAQ at https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-
| currency-and-e...
|
| > Is uncut currency legal tender?
|
| > Yes. The individual notes on uncut currency sheets are
| legal tender.
| buryat wrote:
| > The individual notes on uncut currency sheets are legal
| tender.
|
| It doesn't say that the whole sheet would be considered as
| a collection of legal tender. So far I see that the
| individual notes are legal tender, it doesn't say what
| happens if you cut it. Everything it says is about uncut
| currency sheets.
| kxrm wrote:
| > it doesn't say what happens if you cut it.
|
| It does though?
|
| > Can I cut uncut currency sheets? What happens if the
| notes on my sheet were cut apart?
|
| > Because the individual notes on uncut currency sheets
| are legal tender, they may be cut apart and spent. Were
| you to do this, they would only be valued at their face
| value, even though you would have paid more than their
| cumulative value for the uncut currency sheet.
| buryat wrote:
| Interesting up to what section they can be cut out, can
| it just be the two serial numbers and the denomination?
| Then the back of the notes becomes just "In God We Trust"
| AngryData wrote:
| In the case of damaged bills, if you have over half of it
| it is generally still considered legal tender and banks
| will accept it as-is. However if over 50% of the bill is
| damaged or missing, it has to be turned into the Bureau
| of Engraving and Printing, which is basically the paper
| money half of the US Mint, and investigated/examined to
| determine if it is valid for replacement or
| reimbursement.
|
| So I would assume as long as you have over half after
| cutting it, it would still be good, although businesses
| and banks can turn it down if they are unsure of it's
| legality or legitimacy, and not having a full serial
| number would likely get it rejected nearly everywhere.
| buryat wrote:
| Is this an infinite paper glitch?
|
| If banks have to accept if over 50% of the bill is
| missing, then you can keep the other paper and use it.
| Using it productively seems difficult but $1M in $1 bills
| (one bill is roughly 1 gram) would be 1000kg, 490kg of
| paper, let's say it would be considered residential
| papers then at $100 per ton, we're looking at $49 in
| yield out of air. 0.0049bbps + infinite time on doing the
| process.
| eesmith wrote:
| They do not have to accept it.
| https://www.bep.gov/services/mutilated-currency-
| redemption
|
| > Lawful holders of mutilated currency may receive a
| redemption at full value when: ...
|
| > 1. Clearly more than 50% of a note identifiable as
| United States currency is present, along with sufficient
| remnants of any relevant security feature; or
|
| > 2. 50% or less of a note identifiable as United States
| currency is present and the method of mutilation and
| supporting evidence demonstrate to the satisfaction of
| the [Bureau of Engraving & Printing] that the missing
| portions have been totally destroyed.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| Legally speaking, yes. Practically, I'd reject someone
| handing me uncut currency as change.
| eru wrote:
| I'd gladly accept a whole sheet of uncut currency,
| because they sell for more than face value.
| buryat wrote:
| Who are you going to resell it to? You've just become the
| sucker while they recouped some of the losses.
| throwaway8153 wrote:
| Quote from Woz:
|
| "They meet the specs of the U.S. government, so by law, these
| are legal tender. I have been spending them. You can get
| arrested for them, you cannot get convicted because you're in
| the right."
|
| It is probably not something you should do unless you are
| prepared to pay for a good lawyer, and don't mind the risk of
| getting arrested
| eru wrote:
| I don't think you need a good lawyer, because the case is
| pretty clear. But you do run the risk of annoying people and
| getting into some temporary legal trouble.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| >They meet the specs of the U.S. government, so by law, these
| are legal tender.
|
| That's not how it works. North Korea is great at producing
| dollars that "meet the specs" but they are still counterfeit.
|
| The US dollar is not an open standard. Valid US currency is
| only produced by the mint. If you do something to a valid US
| dollar, it might still stay a valid US dollar, but that's not
| because they still "meet the specs".
|
| Meanwhile the law says
|
| >"whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or
| perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any other
| thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of
| debt issued by any national banking association, or Federal
| Reserve bank, or the Federal Reserve System, with intent to
| render such bank bill, draft, note, or other evidence of debt
| unfit to be reissued, shall be fined under this title or
| imprisoned not more than six months, or both." 18 U.S.C. SS
| 333.
| throwaway8153 wrote:
| > That's not how it works. North Korea is great at
| producing dollars that "meet the specs" but they are still
| counterfeit
|
| The quote from Steve Wozniak refers to an official sheet of
| dollar bills, purchased from the official source. I'm sure
| that he considers the source as part of the "specs", and is
| not referring to only the physical aspects.
|
| >"whoever mutilates, cuts, defaces, disfigures, or
| perforates, or unites or cements together, or does any
| other thing to any bank bill, draft, note, or other
| evidence of debt issued by any national banking
| association, or Federal Reserve bank, or the Federal
| Reserve System, with intent to render such bank bill,
| draft, note, or other evidence of debt unfit to be
| reissued, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not
| more than six months,
|
| This doesn't apply here
|
| https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/faqs/paper-currency-
| and-e...
|
| "Can I cut uncut currency sheets? What happens if the notes
| on my sheet were cut apart?
|
| Because the individual notes on uncut currency sheets are
| legal tender, they may be cut apart and spent. Were you to
| do this, they would only be valued at their face value,
| even though you would have paid more than their cumulative
| value for the uncut currency sheet."
| WarOnPrivacy wrote:
| I've been looking to decorate with stock certificates but bill
| sheets are cool too.
|
| https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=50+stock+certificates
| senkora wrote:
| They'd make awesome wallpaer.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Grab that 1960 American Express share certificate!
|
| Up until 1965, it was an unlimited liability corporation.
| neilv wrote:
| Steve Wozniak (the Apple cofounder) famously bought sheets of $2
| bills, and had a printer perforate and gum them into pads.
|
| So he could literally tear off $2 bills, in front of people who
| might not even know it was real currency, to pay them.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20180311084811/http://archive.wo...
| skunkworker wrote:
| Some banks also do this. I've gotten a wad of $2 bills from a
| local branch of a major bank before.
| achow wrote:
| The video where he is showcasing it..
|
| https://www.instagram.com/reel/DDHTkowSkUM/
| firen777 wrote:
| reading the comments gave me a headache...
| eru wrote:
| It's instagram.
|
| Slight tangent: the YouTube comments used to be famous for
| being a vile cesspit. Then Google changed something, and
| now they are full of positivity. Often too full.
| normie3000 wrote:
| And for songs, often (fake?) testimonies to people's
| emotional attachments to the song.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| It's not just me / the music videos I look up then, is
| it? I can't help but wonder if it's some kind of YT hive
| mind, bots, or Google's own algorithms pushing those
| comments to the top.
| ferguu_ wrote:
| Seems like they just put the comments with the most likes
| at the top... stands to reason that more likes = nicer
| comment.
| eru wrote:
| I'm not sure. I would have assumed that this naive
| algorithm is what they had at first, and what gave us the
| cesspool?
| fnordian_slip wrote:
| I'm not convinced that the current trend of positivity is
| not caused by bots, but I wouldn't be surprised if the
| old system was just based on engagement. Meaning that
| upvotes and downvotes would both push the comment up.
| This is not intuitive, but would fit with what we've been
| seeing for the last decade or so.
| auc wrote:
| First part of your comment is right, but your reasoning
| is wrong. A couple years ago, YouTube changed the
| visibility of negative comments, such that positive
| comments are prioritized (can't like a comment if you
| don't even see it).
|
| This was also around the time they removed the thumbs
| up/down count.
|
| This was to prevent creator burnout; imagine if every
| video you put out had some snarky diss against you in the
| comments.
| yowzadave wrote:
| My favorite ones are the comment threads for sentimental
| songs from the 80's--you just get a flood of
| heartbreaking stories from older folks talking about
| their first loves, now passed on.
| t-3 wrote:
| moji moji moji who still bangin this in 2022? moji moji
| avidiax wrote:
| The explanation I've heard for these is it's a low-effort
| bot comment that builds activity on the commenting
| account.
|
| Whether that actually increases the value of an account
| or not, I'm not sure. But it's enough that spammers seem
| to think that having comments & replies on an account.
|
| It may also be purchased comments to improve "engagement"
| metrics on videos for the creator.
| dartos wrote:
| Idk YouTube comments are still a cesspit, but now there
| are lobotomized bots saying nice things.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| >Often too full.
|
| Eh. Yeah. I posted a comment on a urban design video
| questioning the cost they gave for car ownership and the
| fact that they did not value the extra time it takes to
| use transit. Bam. Comment removed. Apparently the channel
| is able to moderate comments that don't fit their
| mentality
| Modified3019 wrote:
| It may have been the channel owner, or more likely it may
| have been YouTube itself.
|
| There have been a few discussions over at level1techs
| where people thought they thought the channel was
| moderating them for some strange reason, only to turn out
| it's YouTube:
| https://forum.level1techs.com/t/l1t-youtube-shadowban-
| shadow...
|
| More than once I've made a comment, went to edit a
| spelling mistake, and got an error on save because my
| completely unobjectionable comment was removed 10 seconds
| after posting.
|
| YouTube has a horrible comment automation wordfilter/AI
| that will silently steamroll comments in a way that makes
| Reddit and 4chan mods seem rational. The channel owners
| don't even see the comments (and last I checked, they
| don't show up in your comment history either)
|
| YouTube comments are vapid, in part because anything high
| effort/quality is likely to get deleted.
| Arnavion wrote:
| Yes, you can confirm if this is the case by going to
| "Your data in Youtube" and seeing if your comment still
| shows up there. If you click the direct link there it'll
| even take you to the video and highlight your comment.
| But if you reload the video without the querystring part
| that identifies your comment, you won't see it. It's
| happened to a bunch of mine too on and off over the
| years, and it's not because of negativity or anything.
|
| You can even see it happening to other people - if you
| see a comment tree that says it has N replies, but then
| you expand it and it shows less than N replies, the same
| thing happened to the people who posted those missing
| replies too.
|
| The same thing happens with my Google Maps reviews too.
| Google is too lazy and high on their farts about letting
| automation do their moderation to care.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| I prefer it so much more. If you told me I would be a
| proponent of censorship in my 20s I would have laughed at
| you.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| Because they're doing what people do here so often -
| responding to the headline, not the 'article.' The headline
| and first sentence are outright lies. "...known for
| printing his own unique currency--$2 bills that he
| personally designs." Uh ... no? He doesn't print it, he
| didn't design it.
|
| "He doesn't actually print official U.S. currency, which
| would be illegal. Instead, [he] purchases uncut sheets of
| $2 bills from the U.S. Treasury..."
|
| Well, yeah - that's why it makes sense. But you have to
| read past the outright fabrications to get to the truth of
| the matter.
| lupire wrote:
| You don't have to. You could be a sane, intelligent
| person and not look at Instagram at all.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| I didn't say it had to be done on instagram.
| amatecha wrote:
| "Apple co-founder Steve Wozniak prints his own money" --
| closed the window. Dunno what I expected, clicking an
| Instagram link. Turns out there's no way to report content
| for misinformation, as I've just discovered, so that's cool.
| Definitely reaffirms my aversion to the platform.
| buryat wrote:
| In the video interview
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJ1TIYxm1vM he never
| demonstrates how he tears them apart after mentioning that
| they're perforated. To me, it all looks like a 4x1 sheet of $2
| bills that you can buy off the US mint. The video interview all
| sounds like a joke, and he says at some point "No, no it's all
| a joke". Unless it's a deposition, it's all based on trusting
| his character and given his latest speaker appearances, I have
| doubts about his character.
| Stratoscope wrote:
| Wait, what? You have doubts about Steve Wozniak's character?
|
| Anyone who knows Woz can assure you that he is quite a
| character!
| tejtm wrote:
| and a laser safety officer
|
| https://www.geekculture.com/mt2/archives/2018/02/wozs_laser
| _...
| extraduder_ire wrote:
| The eyepatch in his photo is a nice touch.
| neom wrote:
| The sheet on the mints site looks very flat, it doesn't look
| like it would fold in this manner, this looks like it's been
| perforated: https://www.instagram.com/starworldlab/p/C-vzStay
| 1yx/?img_in...
|
| Curious though, what speaking appearance are you talking
| about? He always just seems like a jolly old man to me who is
| a bit out of touch but quite sweet.
| buryat wrote:
| The one that irked me the most was his cameo for a dubious
| crypto startup
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38855645
|
| He does a lot of public speaking the quality can be gauged
| by searching "Steve Wozniak conference", and his attendance
| can be bought https://www.aurumbureau.com/speaker/steve-
| wozniak/ What kind of message a person who is getting paid
| by the platform is going to have?
|
| I'm overall not very trusting of his opinion on the current
| tech. Yes, he had cofounded Apple, and created the first
| machines but I don't see anything significant that he
| created after that. He did start a company in 2020 that was
| backed by the WOZX token
| (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/04/apple-co-founder-steve-
| wozni...).
| neom wrote:
| Fair enough, I agree he's super out of touch, just wanted
| to make sure he wasn't speaking at something really
| really bad.
|
| To save anyone else a google: he is indeed behind a
| crypto project properly it seems, and the token looks
| very much like a rug[1], and the cameo thing is real and
| it seems odd he's not savvy enough to do some background
| on it/know not to shill NFTs[2]. Speaking fee thing
| doesn't bother me personally, even I'm on one of those
| stupid things, they give pretty huge retainers and the
| money is great. Saw Woz is charging 100k an event, ha!
|
| [1]https://www.coinbase.com/price/efforce
| [2]https://behindmlm.com/companies/hyperfund/steve-
| wozniak-2nd-...
| mixmastamyk wrote:
| Good for him--don't think he got the _big_ money aapl
| generated as he got out quite early.
| varjag wrote:
| Took me a while to connect your username to the IRC nick.
| Cheers!
| neom wrote:
| You remember that from... 25 years ago? Impressive. Hi
| varjag, Cheers! <3
| neilv wrote:
| My reaction to that video: Teasing restaurant employees like
| that, and letting it escalate, isn't my personal style,
| but... Not only is he a more accomplished hacker than I am,
| he's even a better talk show guest.
| lupire wrote:
| Per influencer rules, if you screws around neither
| someone's head for lolz, you should pay them combat wages
| for their time afterward.
| switchbak wrote:
| "if you screws around neither someone's head for lolz"
| ... are you having a stroke right now? What is that
| supposed to mean?
| yellowapple wrote:
| Maybe someone screwsed around neither his head for lolz?
| Abfrage wrote:
| The talk show host demonstrates that you can tear them.
| amatecha wrote:
| Dude he gave a fake ID to a Secret Service agent? Dang.
| magic_smoke_ee wrote:
| In today's stupefied America, it wouldn't be safe because the
| police will be called and the police escalate things into
| unnecessary violence. In the 60's through 80's it would've been
| fine, but not now.
| lupire wrote:
| Steve Wozniak is white and soft looking.
| Aunche wrote:
| There wasn't any standardized data on police violence in the
| US in the 60s through 80s, but I doubt that it was any less
| significant.
| 0_____0 wrote:
| Come on people, there was a civil rights movement in swing
| in the 60s in the US.
|
| Richard Pryor in 1979 on policing:
|
| https://youtu.be/ZWulvchFpYs
|
| > RP: Police got chokehold on you out here though, they
| choke n--- to death! I mean you be dead when they through!
| Did you know that?
|
| > [Audience indistinctly yelling back "Yeah!"]
|
| > RP: The n--- going "Yeah we know!," white people going
| "no, I had no idea!"
| mmcgaha wrote:
| I have too many family stories of the things police used to
| do to believe that it was better back then. My gut tells me
| things are better now but maybe I am just not in the know.
| Animats wrote:
| The original guy who famously did that was the publicity
| director for Palisades Park Amusement Park in New Jersey, some
| time in the 1950s and 1960s. He had a checkbook cover with a
| pad of bills he could tear off.
| frankthedog wrote:
| I once found a pad of tear off $2 on the ground of the
| departures drop off at O'hare airport. I thought it was a
| novelty initially but after closer inspection found the bills
| to be real. It's been a 20 year mystery to me how that came to
| be since I've never seen anything like it since. Now I'm
| wondering if I found Woz's pad.
|
| That would be quite interesting because when I was very young I
| crank called him after finding his number online. He collects
| phone numbers with repeating digits and mine has 6 repeated
| numbers. I guess he found my number peculiar and picked up! In
| my young and starstruck state I panicked and hung up. How
| coincidental to have potentially two obscure path crossings
| with the Woz.
| divbzero wrote:
| Chances seem small that it was his, but chances also seem
| small of another quirky guy making tear-off $2 pads.
|
| 6 repeating digits is quite impressive: maybe you could call
| again and ask if he was in Chicago around a certain date.
| pontifk8r wrote:
| Make your own with padding cement. Put the stack of bills in
| a vice and coat one edge a few times with the cement. I did
| this for a nephew as a unique gift. Some people being paid
| with these are suspicious.
| georgecmu wrote:
| I replicated this 5-6 years back: got a sheet of $2 bills and
| perforated it myself.
|
| Then I separated the large sheet into strips and gave them out
| as souvenirs to friends.
|
| This is what a complete sheet folded up looked like:
| https://imgur.com/a/uCS5930
| petesergeant wrote:
| gotta be someone somewhere with more money than sense using these
| as wallpaper
| omoikane wrote:
| Maybe not a wallpaper, but I have been at an office that has a
| sheet that was framed and hung on the wall. You know, where
| people might have hung a painting or something else, this guy
| has a framed sheet of dollar bills.
|
| It felt like a novelty at the time, but that feeling wore off
| quickly.
| hidroto wrote:
| https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/banknotes-german-hyperinfla...
| WorldMaker wrote:
| I love the story that a French building recently (2010s, I
| think) renovated and discovered back rooms wallpapered in
| _very_ early American money and plenty more stuffed inside
| various walls as essentially insulation. There was no surprise
| as to why that might be because most of the bills had the
| obvious signature of Benjamin Franklin and there was one
| notorious French bordello in his diplomat days that he had been
| alleged to spend a lot of self-invented money at. It was mostly
| only good for wallpaper and insulation, but being a diplomat he
| certainly implied it was good American currency at the time.
| There 's something to weirdly admire about Ben Franklin paying
| for apparently a lot of French services with money he just kind
| of made up himself, and they mostly accepted it because it did
| make interesting wallpaper and decent building insulation.
| defaultcompany wrote:
| This reminded me of that classic Eric and Tim Show episode
| "Prices" [1]. "Fine European prices! Buy $35.50... for forty
| dollars."
|
| 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJ9yBgTp9UQ
| nxobject wrote:
| I only wish they sold something practical like non-commemorative
| quarter rolls, even at a slight upcharge... banks are cracking
| down on who they allow to redeem cash for equivalently-valued
| quarter rolls.
| nofunsir wrote:
| Why?
| neilv wrote:
| It costs them money. Also, for years there was a problem with
| people who'd sift through quarters for rare 1964-and-earlier
| ones that had silver content, and then return most of the
| quarters to a bank. And some people would do this in high
| volume, using coin-sorting machinery, and traveling around
| the region, to hit many banks. So, a bank branch would lose
| money on providing the coins and/or lose even more on taking
| back all the non-silver ones.
|
| After my condo building's laundry room vendor recently
| swapped out the card readers for some dodgy IoT app thing,
| I've started using quarters again, and finding quarters at
| all is difficult. Most store customer service counters and
| checkouts have a rule against trading quarters at all, though
| one did offer to trade up to $2 worth (like for parking
| meter). All the laundromats that still use quarters have
| threatening signs on their quarters changers, that it's only
| for customers. My bank branch limits to 4 rolls per customer
| (after verifying that you have an account there), and you can
| often sense that the counter person enjoys the transaction
| even less than some of the other money-losing services they
| provide.
| WalterBright wrote:
| It's been a very very long time since I've seen a silver
| quarter in circulation.
| neilv wrote:
| There were enough to make searching worthwhile. Then
| people switched to half-dollars. I assume the supply is
| cleaned out now, though.
|
| I did get a silver quarter in circulation maybe a decade
| ago, in change at a pop-up farmer's market stand. I
| recognized it immediately: it's a whiter, more satiny
| look.
| wpm wrote:
| Their sound is also subtly different that you can pick up
| if you pay attention. I used to swap silver quarters out
| of the till when I worked a cash register and I could
| tell without even looking that someone was about to hand
| me a silver quarter or dime.
| forgetfreeman wrote:
| When was the last time you changed a $5 bill at a
| carwash?
| WalterBright wrote:
| I have a jar of quarters from throwing my change in it.
| No silver quarters, ever. And yah, I can spot a silver
| one immediately. The color and feel is different, and the
| edge of course is the dead giveaway.
| sschueller wrote:
| Why is the US one of the few countries that can't keep a
| consistent design across their bills and still does not have a
| way for blind people to identify which note they have. They are
| all the same size and have no embossed markings.
| ternnoburn wrote:
| In the U.S., disability is treated as a personal failing. It
| might not be consciously done so, but the culture here is
| largely to pity or demean people with disabilities, not to aid
| them.
| saturn8601 wrote:
| But the US has some of the best disability friendly
| infrastructure. The whole ADA compliance is taken very
| seriously here.
| ternnoburn wrote:
| I work in accessibility. The ADA is barely acknowledged.
| Every automatic door, curb cut, and accommodation is still
| a tough fight.
| kube-system wrote:
| ADA compliance is always a struggle in the US, but if you
| travel around the world, the US is leaps and bounds ahead
| of many places that don't even have the equivalent of the
| ADA to fight for.
| ternnoburn wrote:
| Does "other people do it worse" mean we do it well?
|
| Because I only put forward the claim that the US does it
| poorly. Whether others do it worse seems to have no
| bearing on whether we should strive to improve or not...
| kube-system wrote:
| Of course, disability rights and accessibility is a
| struggle for people all around the planet.
| toast0 wrote:
| _If_ the US is the best at accommodating mobility
| impairments, that 's got to count for something. Maybe
| it's not handling it well, but if it's the best than
| anywhere is doing, keep asking for better, but set
| reasonable expectations.
|
| IMHO, there's a lot more room to improve accommodations
| for non-mobility impairments however, and there's
| examples of other countries doing better in some aspects
| to compare to. On-topic, accessibility of currency is
| clearly a US weakness, although the upcoming bill designs
| are supposed to address this, although we'll have to wait
| and feel if it works as announced.
| khazhoux wrote:
| Please cite some examples of how the U.S. treats disabilities
| as personal failings, compared to specific other countries.
| Freedom2 wrote:
| Pre-existing conditions, which as far as I'm aware, is a
| US-only concept. I'm happy to be corrected for that,
| though.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _Pre-existing conditions, which as far as I 'm aware,
| is a US-only concept_
|
| Most of the world's population has no concept of
| socialised heath insurance. Pre-existing or novel.
| Someone in a wheelchair, or who is blind or mute, is much
| better accomodated in America than in most of Europe. (In
| part because the former is richer.)
| Freedom2 wrote:
| If we're comparing the United States against third-world
| countries and not against their peers, then this isn't
| really a discussion worth having.
|
| > Someone in a wheelchair, or who is blind or mute, is
| much better accomodated in America than in most of
| Europe.
|
| I find that hard to believe given the lack of public
| transport, lack of funding for widespread public
| facilities, lack of empathy from insurers, lack of
| governmental social safety nets for those who come under
| unexpected hard times.
| atq2119 wrote:
| As a European, I can confirm that wheelchair
| accessibility is traditionally better in the US than in
| Europe.
|
| I suspect it's a combination of getting relevant laws
| earlier (don't know that, just guessing), having less old
| infrastructure (building new with accessibility is easier
| than upgrading existing buildings), and having more space
| (so adding a wheelchair ramp is less of a deal).
|
| Europe is generally catching up, but I'd say it's still
| behind the US. At least the places I know.
|
| But of course, that's not the whole story, as another
| commenter illustrates with some concrete examples for the
| cost of wheelchairs and wheelchair maintenance.
| serf wrote:
| >Someone in a wheelchair, or who is blind or mute, is
| much better accomodated in America than in most of
| Europe. (In part because the former is richer.)
|
| I guess it just depends on who you talk to and their
| particular values.
|
| I love my country, but to give a bit of a counter point :
| I am paralyzed due to a cervical spine injury.
|
| Medicare will pay 80% of the cost of a new chair after
| payment of deductible once every 5 years. They do not
| cover maintenance and repair in most cases.
|
| A decent mid-range power-chair with posture and
| repositioning aids costs between 15k-25k. The air cushion
| for this chair to prevent pressure sores costs
| 400-800usd.
|
| So, essentially, that means that a permanently disabled
| person making the _high_ SSDI income of 18k a year is
| going to be asked to pay 4.5k USD out of pocket every 5
| years just in order to take advantage of the offers from
| Medicare -- and this isn 't including repair, wear and
| replacement of items, or the short 1-2 year life span of
| most air cushions. By the time the chair hits the next
| replacement window it will have gone through 2-3
| 500-800usd cushions and numerous other repairs.
|
| To contrast : My friends with similar injuries who are
| insured under the British NHS receive a voucher for a new
| chair every 3-5 years. They receive vouchers for repair
| at local shops. Cushion replacement is deemed necessary
| during the repair process and they are replaced w/
| vouchers as needed, not on a schedule.
|
| It's all grass-is-always-greener thinking. The NHS has
| huge problems, too. But as a wheelchair user I can't
| wholly agree with the take that we're better accommodated
| over in the U.S. in any absolute sense.
| eru wrote:
| Europe is a big place. Switzerland is pretty rich,
| Rumania is pretty poor.
|
| But you are right that on average the US is richer than
| most of Europe.
| eru wrote:
| You mean 'pre-existing conditions' in the context of
| buying health insurance?
|
| That concept pretty well known in other parts of the
| world. See eg https://www.moh.gov.sg/managing-
| expenses/schemes-and-subsidi... for a random example. Or
| https://globmed.co.uk/blog/pre-existing-health-condition-
| exp... or just ask Google for more.
|
| What research did you do before making your statement?
| Freedom2 wrote:
| > What research did you do before making your statement?
|
| I clearly stated "as far as I'm aware" and that I am
| happy to be corrected. I appreciate the extra
| information, but the tone here is not appreciated and is
| skirting close to breaching the HN guidelines.
| ImPostingOnHN wrote:
| I did not see anything with their tone.
|
| There was nothing wrong with you making a statement
| qualified with _" as far as I know"_. You're good.
|
| Likewise, there was nothing wrong with another person
| asking for details regarding what effort went into _" as
| far as I know"_. They're good.
|
| Someone who is in any given field and has researched it
| for decades might have more related knowledge included in
| _" as far as I know"_, than someone who didn't. So it's
| totally reasonable to ask them how they came to know _'
| as far as they know'_, because that information is
| critical for everyone else to judge how much credence to
| lend to that someone's posts.
| Leherenn wrote:
| Switzerland has them for supplementary health insurances.
|
| In a nutshell, Switzerland has two types of health
| insurances. The basic one, which is mandatory, and whose
| coverage and price is set by the government. It covers
| more or less everything that endangers your health.
| Pretty close to ACA in the US if I'm not mistaken, but a
| lot more regulated.
|
| And then you can add supplementary insurances, for stuff
| like dental, private rooms in hospitals, experimental
| treatments, ... It's common to be denied coverage there,
| especially as you get older.
| lotsofpulp wrote:
| The context "pre-existing conditions" is most commonly
| used in the USA used to be for underwriting health
| insurance, but since 2010, the Affordable Care Act
| prohibits health insurance businesses from using pre
| existing conditions to underwrite health insurance:
|
| https://www.healthcare.gov/coverage/pre-existing-
| conditions/
|
| Everyone is eligible to purchase health insurance, and
| pricing can only be based on
|
| 1) age (loosely, old people are heavily subsidized by
| young because highest premium is capped at 3x lowest
| premium)
|
| 2) tobacco use (tobacco users didn't have the political
| power to prevent this habit from being an underwriting
| factor, as opposed to alcohol and sugar and excess
| carbohydrate users)
|
| 3) location
|
| https://www.healthcare.gov/how-plans-set-your-premiums/
|
| Hence, health insurance premiums in the US are more akin
| to a tax than insurance.
| mminer237 wrote:
| What about pre-existing conditions? Like, for buying
| health insurance? That stopped being a thing like 15
| years ago.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| This hasn't been a problem since the ACA.
|
| I was caught up in the pre ACA health care system trying
| to find insurance outside of working for a company.
|
| I have very mild Cerebral Palsy and back then, I was in
| great shape - a part time fitness instructor, had just
| run two half marathons in an average time, I could pass
| any of the standard fitness tests for my age etc.
|
| I had one surgery in my entire life - four surgery at 21
| 12 years prior. I could not get insurance at any price
| even though they could have given me any fitness test
| including running on a treadmill with flying colors.
|
| I was making more than enough as a contractor to pay for
| it.
|
| I looked on the open market last year when I briefly
| thought about going independent and I could have
| definitely made the numbers work.
| ternnoburn wrote:
| I made no claims about other countries. I forwarded only
| the claim that the U.S. treats disability as a failing.
|
| Let's start with various cognitive disabilities --
| depression, for instance, is heavily stigmatized. Seeking
| medication and therapy, and especially talking about
| medication and therapy, is considered awkward and
| uncomfortable in most circles.
|
| Or ADHD, which causes a whole range of executive
| functioning failures - inability to focus, manage
| schedules, etc. Yet we make access to diagnosis and
| medication very difficult, and workplaces often fail to
| accommodate people.
|
| On the physical disability front, one of the easiest and
| fastest things we can do is add alt text to images, yet
| even "progressive" places struggle to do this. In fact, a
| coffee company just sued for the right to not have to
| provide an accessible website, trying to undermine the
| ADA's protections of digital spaces.
|
| But don't take my words for it, there are many resources
| online that are worth reading:
|
| Disability and access to health care:
| https://fisafoundation.org/wp-
| content/uploads/2024/09/Access...
|
| People with disabilities experience higher rates of
| exclusion: https://www.urban.org/research/publication/four-
| ten-adults-d...
|
| Countless examples of care being inadequate:
| https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-
| reports/2...
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Absolutely no political party in the US is railing against
| the disabled. The ADA was championed by Bush - a Republican
| candidate.
|
| Especially seeing how many people in "rural America" are
| claiming disability benefits that could work. But don't have
| the necessary skills to get the jobs available are a
| willingness to move to where the jobs are.
|
| Yes I realize that moving somewhere without the extended
| family support system is an issue and it's failing of the
| government and job training services
|
| https://projecte3.com/rural-americans/
|
| Edit: I see I just got accused of being "ablist" in a now
| dead comment.
|
| I have cerebral palsy
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42611512
| ternnoburn wrote:
| I'd argue neither political party is helping people with
| disabilities, and both are pretty strongly neglecting them.
| I don't think any of the current slate of politicians care
| at all. Bush I was a generation ago.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| What exactly should the government be doing that it isn't
| doing? I'm speaking as someone with a slight disability
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42611326
|
| More details, it's more of an irritation for me than a
| life altering issue - my CP is such that I can only grab
| things with my left hand and I have a slight limp because
| of weakness in my left foot. But properly conditioned, I
| can run a 10 minute mile (not great. But not bad).
|
| So this is an honest question, I (or my parents) really
| haven't needed much government help even though I did go
| through various therapies until I was 12 when my
| "therapy" became lifting weights.
| ternnoburn wrote:
| Read some of the items here:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42611374
| mrguyorama wrote:
| > The ADA was championed by Bush - a Republican candidate.
|
| No it fucking wasn't. What are you smoking?
|
| >n 1986, the National Council on Disability had recommended
| the enactment of an Americans with Disabilities Act and
| drafted the first version of the bill which was introduced
| in the House and Senate in 1988.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| It was signed into law in 1990.
|
| https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/americans-
| with-d...
|
| > Despite pressure from some church groups, who felt the
| ADA unfairly burdened them, the bill passed the House by
| unanimous voice vote and the Senate 76-6, paving the way
| for its signing on July 26 by President Bush, who said,
| "Let the shameful wall of exclusion finally come tumbling
| down."
| supernova87a wrote:
| It is already big a deal to change the images on currency (no
| matter what country). Given the US dollar is viewed as somewhat
| of a standard, you can imagine that to change its size/shape
| would be quite difficult to generate enough political
| enthusiasm for.
| H8crilA wrote:
| The US has last partially defaulted on its currency in 1971,
| surely a change of the design is possible too.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _surely a change of the design is possible too_
|
| It's changed plenty of times [1].
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_Sta
| tes_d...
| rtkwe wrote:
| The printed design has remained the same but the form
| factor has been pretty static for the last century or so.
| Things like bill readers are a big reason for that once
| they appeared it became a lot harder to swap around bill
| shapes.
| supernova87a wrote:
| I remember hearing that the Susan B Anthony dollar coin
| failed because there was no extra position in the coin
| drawer of cash registers to put it in. Can you image if
| every cash drawer now has to be redesigned to have
| different sized bills?
|
| (I know, I know, it's not actually that big a deal. The
| drawers have removable inserts, but you get the point of
| it.)
|
| (actually, on second though, automatic bill readers in
| vending machines, etc. would need a big retrofitting,
| that's probably much more a big deal).
| eru wrote:
| 1971 wasn't such a big deal. Between the 1930s and 1971
| only foreign central banks could redeem their dollars in
| gold. So I would put the 'partial default' in 1933, if you
| care about gold.
|
| But they had suspended convertibility of dollars into gold
| every so often before that. (And, of course, the dollar
| wasn't always about gold. They also experimented with
| silver and bimetalism.)
| timewizard wrote:
| > But they had suspended convertibility of dollars into
| gold every so often before that.
|
| They suspended redemptions of the certificated amount.
| You could not own gold until 1933 from 1974, but
| excluding of that, you can always convert your money into
| gold outside of the government if you want.
| sschueller wrote:
| IMO the primary issue is that the US still has people on it.
|
| In a democracy it should be the values of the country that
| should be represented not individuals.
|
| Everyone from left to right should be able to agree on what
| the US stands for. How one gets there is what people argue
| about.
| JumpCrisscross wrote:
| > _the primary issue is that the US still has people on it_
|
| This is hardly unique.
|
| > _In a democracy it should be the values of the country
| that should be represented not individuals_
|
| The world's oldest (Britain, Iceland) and largest (India,
| America) democracies have people on their currencies.
|
| Democracies are a human institution. It's dangerous to
| forget that.
| bmitc wrote:
| And people seem to forget that the U.S. is not a pure
| democracy. It's a democratic republic that is becoming
| more and more republic-like than democratic-like.
| kasey_junk wrote:
| More and more compared to when?
|
| Since the founding we've changed to direct elections in
| the senate.
|
| Many states have passed faithless elector laws for the
| electoral college and 17 states (or 209 electoral votes)
| have passed the national popular vote law.
| encomiast wrote:
| It's a feature (or bug)of US democracy that one of its
| primary values, its reason for existing, is to support
| individuals and their freedom. Individuals are the values.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| The insistence on cotton paper money is part of the problem.
|
| Canada's banknotes are all the same size but because they're
| polymer, have a brail punch in them.
|
| Edit: not braille but a system of raised dots nonetheless:
| https://www.bankofcanada.ca/banknotes/audience-specific-
| reso...
| mike_d wrote:
| There is one private company that either directly
| manufactures or leases the machines out to produce every
| polymer banknote in the world. In theory Romania already
| has 80% of what they need to produce Australian bank notes
| and vice versa.
|
| There isn't anything other than US bills you can use to get
| the raw materials for US currency.
| sschueller wrote:
| The Swiss company Orell Fussli prints the Swiss currency
| as well as currencies for 16 other central banks.
| popcalc wrote:
| >There isn't anything other than US bills you can use to
| get the raw materials for US currency.
|
| You are very confident when you have no idea what you're
| talking about.
|
| https://darknetdiaries.com/transcript/102/
|
| All you need is the cotton blend of paper. There's no
| secret ingredient. Either find a paper pulp manufacturer
| who sells the blend like this guy from Quebec or build
| your own processes like North Korea. Many developing
| world currencies are more secure than the USD.
| AngryData wrote:
| I personally far prefer the cotton paper money over any
| polymer notes or coins and hope we keep using it despite
| any other potential changes to the sizes or designs or
| whatever.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Why?
| fweimer wrote:
| The last iteration of German paper money was cotton-based
| and had raised markers, so it's not an either-or. Example:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deutsche_Mark#/media/File:5_M
| a... (the : in the bottom left area, next to the 5)
| gmueckl wrote:
| These bills also had sizs that increased with their
| denomination.
| fweimer wrote:
| True, but is that unusual? I know that U.S. notes are
| same size, but that seems to be the exception to me?
| Scoundreller wrote:
| I wish it was the reverse. I'd prefer to have the
| smallest denominations within easiest reach by being the
| biggest and the largest denoms tucked away and hard to
| get to.
|
| But retailers would protest I'm sure: it's not the
| psychology they want.
| Keyframe wrote:
| I still keep a 5 DM coin in my wallet. DM was the best!
| Aeolun wrote:
| The thing I cannot fathom is why quarters are so huge,
| considering they're nearly valueless. Then you need whole
| stacks of $1 bills to pay anything relevant. I find both
| constantly cluttering up my wallet.
| bmitc wrote:
| They weren't always valueless. That's the reason.
| encomiast wrote:
| I think I've had the same $23 in my wallet for four years.
| Can't remember the last time I carried a coin around.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| Nah, you need a credit card to pay anything relevant, and
| have done so for decades.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| The question is why are you using cash? Even my 82 year old
| dad is now using Apple Pay and both of my parents mostly use
| credit cards/debit cards.
|
| The only time I keep cash is for tipping, my wife and I
| travel a lot.
| inetknght wrote:
| > _The question is why are you using cash?_
|
| I use cash because it contributes to the local neighborhood
| economy more than not using cash.
|
| I use cash because I do not want to risk a banking app
| being broken by a non-banking app.
|
| I use cash because I do not trust banking apps to keep to
| themselves instead of infecting the whole device with
| spyware to "verify who you are".
|
| I use cash because not using cash charges extra (often-
| hidden) fees while using cash often comes with extra
| discounts.
|
| I use cash because the modern economy is a give-business-
| money-for-nothing-because-fuck-you economy and I don't want
| to contribute to that.
|
| There are many reasons to use cash. Pick one or many but
| stop thinking that cash is worse than a tech solution.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > I use cash because it contributes to the local
| neighborhood economy more than not using cash.
|
| The merchant gets all except for a 2% fee when you don't
| use cash. Cash handling also has cost - theft both from
| employees and outside actors - too.
|
| > I use cash because I do not want to risk a banking app
| being broken by a non-banking app.
|
| When has Apple Pay or Google pay ever been "broken"? Do
| you not use a bank at all or not use any banking apps or
| websites?
|
| > I use cash because not using cash charges extra (often-
| hidden) fees while using cash often comes with extra
| discounts.
|
| There are very few places in the US that up charge for
| credit card transactions. Mostly gas stations and then
| mostly only for gas.
|
| > I use cash because the modern economy is a give-
| business-money-for-nothing-because-fuck-you economy and I
| don't want to contribute to that.
|
| You don't think the merchant network does anything? Even
| if you are opposed to credit card transaction fees are
| you also opposed to debit transaction fees which are much
| lower and where there is a legsl cap?
| coldpie wrote:
| > There are very few places in the US that up charge for
| credit card transactions
|
| I actually see it quite often here in the Twin Cities at
| small stores, bars, restaurants. A 1~3% discount for
| cash.
|
| > The merchant gets all except for a 2% fee when you
| don't use cash. Cash handling also has cost - theft both
| from employees and outside actors - too.
|
| I've asked quite a few merchants that take both whether
| they have a preference for cash vs card. Most (~90%) say
| they don't care either way. The remainder all say they
| prefer cash. I've never had one reply they prefer a card
| to cash. Also, when making large (like four- or five-
| figure) transactions with people like home contractors,
| they all request payment via personal check, to avoid the
| card fees eating a huge chunk of the transaction.
|
| I also dislike the idea of all transactions being
| trackable/identifiable. I think there's value in being
| able to perform anonymous transactions.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > I actually see it quite often here in the Twin Cities
| at small stores, bars, restaurants. A 1~3% discount for
| cash.
|
| For reference, I have a card that gives me 3 points back
| for all restaurants and another card that gives me 2
| points back for all other purchases.
|
| Doing the simplest thing possible and transferring those
| points to Delta for flights nets me 1.3% for each point
| meaning I will at least get 2.6% back on general
| purchases or almost 4% back worse case on restaurants.
|
| If they have to accept cash or credit cards, yes they
| will prefer cash. But there are reasons that some places
| don't accept cash at all. It's because of employee theft.
| But it's harder to steal cash at restaurants and bars
| because everyone gets receipts.
|
| The usual theft from bars come from bartenders pouring
| more expensive liquors and charging for cheaper liquor
| and then accepting larger tips.
| marxisttemp wrote:
| Congratulations on enriching credit card companies. Those
| credit card perks are directly subsidized by the handling
| fees they charge your local businesses
| scarface_74 wrote:
| https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-
| cards...
|
| People spend more money and tip higher when they use
| credit cards than cash....
| inetknght wrote:
| > _People spend more money and tip higher when they use
| credit cards than cash...._
|
| And you think that's a good thing?
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I'm saying it doesn't "hurt" the merchant
| inetknght wrote:
| Indeed? I'm saying it likely does hurt the customer and
| in ways that the customer often doesn't realize. That
| doesn't make it bad per se, but it would be great if more
| people would realize and address the risks involved.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > Those credit card perks are directly subsidized by the
| handling fees they charge your local businesses
|
| The "local business" more than makes up for credit card
| fees via increased spending. They know their margins and
| the minimum amount needed to make a credit card
| transaction worthwhile. That's why many have minimum
| transaction amount to use a credit card.
| inetknght wrote:
| > _The "local business" more than makes up for credit
| card fees via increased spending._
|
| Sure thing bud. Keep cherry-picking the business side of
| things.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| This is literally the topic I was responding to "the
| business side of things"
|
| > Those credit card perks are directly subsidized by the
| handling fees they charge your local businesses
| coldpie wrote:
| Those points don't come from nowhere, they come from the
| business you're buying from. For local businesses, I'd
| rather I keep 1% and the business keeps 2%, than Visa
| takes 3% from the business and gives me 1.5% back.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| And people spend more when using credit cards than paying
| cash...
|
| https://www.nerdwallet.com/article/credit-cards/credit-
| cards...
| coldpie wrote:
| I'm not really sure what you're trying to do in this
| thread. You asked why people like to use cash, and we're
| answering your question. You don't have to agree with us,
| it's OK for people to have different opinions about
| stuff.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| People are concerned with it hurting local businesses.
|
| > they come from the business you're buying from. For
| local businesses
|
| Which is not true.
|
| And some of the reasons - like security and losing money
| - is tin foil hat territory.
| coldpie wrote:
| > Which is not true.
|
| Oh. Where does it come from then?
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Retailers don't "lose money" by accepting credit cards
| because on average consumers spend more when they use
| credit cards than they do when using cash.
| coldpie wrote:
| So, you agree that the points do come from the
| transaction fees after all?
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Yes, I'm saying that the merchants aren't "losing money"
| by paying transaction fees if they make more by accepting
| credit cards than not accepting credit cards.
| coldpie wrote:
| I don't think anyone suggested they should not accept
| credit cards. You asked why I like to use cash, and I
| answered that one reason is it gives more money to the
| vendor than if I used a card.
| krunck wrote:
| People get benefits back from their cards because of the
| transaction fees. Thats where the money comes from, not
| from the bank accounts of Visa and Mastercard's CEOs.
|
| Merchants are prevented by their contract from charging
| the transaction fee to the customer using the card.
| Therefore all customers pay the fees though increased
| merchant prices, even those using cash.
|
| I resent paying for peoples credit card "benefits" -
| actually they're payoffs - every time I use cash.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > Merchants are prevented by their contract from charging
| the transaction fee to the customer using the card.
| Therefore all customers pay the fees though increased
| merchant prices, even those using cash.
|
| This hasn't been true for over a decade
|
| https://usa.visa.com/dam/VCOM/download/merchants/surcharg
| ing...
|
| > Can I add a surcharge to card transactions?
|
| > As a result of a legal settlement to resolve claims
| brought by a group of U.S. merchants, merchants in the
| U.S. and U.S. territories may add a surcharge to certain
| credit card transactions, starting January 27, 2013.
| Merchants who choose to surcharge must follow
|
| > I resent paying for peoples credit card "benefits" -
| actually they're payoffs - every time I use cash.
|
| You really think retailers would reduce their prices by
| the amount of credit card fees if they didn't pay them?
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| > You really think retailers would reduce their prices by
| the amount of credit card fees if they didn't pay them?
|
| What kind of question is that? You were literally given
| an example, in this thread, about how some retailers do
| just that.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| In aggregate, if all credit card fees were eliminated
| tomorrow, would all prices get 2% cheaper?
| aftbit wrote:
| I use cash because it doesn't require batteries, and
| because my cell phone won't let me use Google Pay, as
| it's running a custom OS (before that, was rooted) so I'm
| obviously untrustworthy.
|
| I do use a credit card pretty often too, but I always
| have a little cash on me and I use it at least weekly.
| trey-jones wrote:
| To pile on the battery issue, we had some very severe
| storms in my area that took down power for days and
| internet for weeks. Credit card processing was not
| possible for gas stations during that time period, but
| the pumps worked when the power came back on. The only
| way you could fill up at those stations was with cash. It
| doesn't happen every day, but it does happen, and perhaps
| more importantly _could be made to happen_.
|
| Not that cash is necessarily a lot better. I can't
| remember what sci-fi character made the observation that
| "all currency is mutual delusion", but I observe the
| truth of that. I've thought it was in Hyperion, but have
| not been able to find it.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| And during the severe thunderstorms in Florida when
| everyone was coming to Orlando, places ran out of gas. We
| had an EV and charged at home.
|
| Are you going to get an EV too? Yes we keep some cash
| because we travel a lot and use cash for tips.
| inetknght wrote:
| > _And during the severe thunderstorms in Florida when
| everyone was coming to Orlando, places ran out of gas. We
| had an EV and charged at home._
|
| Having an electric vehicle is NOT the benefit you think
| it is here.
|
| You could just as easily have an internal combustion
| engine and spare fuel tanks. My car holds about 12
| gallons of fuel and I have three 5-gallon fuel jugs ready
| to do. I use the fuel jugs for my lawnmower to keep the
| fuel fresh, but the jugs serve just as well during an
| emergency. And the benefit over an electric vehicle: I
| can put the fuel jugs into the tank or the trunk and just
| go.
|
| If your EV is drained... good luck getting it charged
| when you're given an evacuation order.
|
| Places running out of gas? That's a consequence of poor
| planning or a just-in-time economy (take your pick) on
| the gas stations, and a consequence of poor planning or a
| just-in-time economy on the people buying fuel from gas
| stations when they should have fueled up before the
| emergency.
|
| Not everyone can buy fuel jugs. Good luck storing fuel
| jugs anywhere safe when you're living in an urban
| environment. It's the same for EV batteries too.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Operative word is "had" which fairly enough could be
| interpreted as the storm was in the past tense or the car
| was in the past tense. I meant the latter.
|
| We only had it for six months (SixT month to month car
| subscription) while trying to decide what our next move
| was. We didn't know whether we were going to stay in
| Florida all year or travel half the year and rent our
| place out and stay at home half the year or not.
|
| We had just come off of a year of doing the digital nomad
| thing and flying one way across the country.
| inetknght wrote:
| > _Operative word is "had" which fairly enough could be
| interpreted as the storm was in the past tense or the car
| was in the past tense. I meant the latter._
|
| OK fair enough
| inetknght wrote:
| > _I use cash because it doesn 't require batteries_
|
| > _my cell phone ... running a custom OS_
|
| Both very good points. Thank you for speaking up :)
| scarface_74 wrote:
| A credit card or debit card doesn't require batteries
| either...
| inetknght wrote:
| k
| toast0 wrote:
| Imprint machines are dead; most of my cards don't have
| raised numbers, possibly none of them have them. Where I
| live, most of the terminals are either on batteries
| directly or via a UPS.
|
| If someone is anti-battery, they shouldn't use credit
| cards here. Although, cash registers are usually on a UPS
| too.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I meant credit cards don't require the user to have a
| charged device.
| inetknght wrote:
| > _When has Apple Pay or Google pay ever been "broken"?_
|
| Dunno, don't care. I'm not going to mix my banking stuff
| with my non-banking stuff.
|
| Not being "broken" publicly doesn't mean it's bug-free.
| You and I both know that Apple Pay and Google Pay are
| both written with software and enabled via hardware. That
| doesn't mean it's bug-free. That doesn't mean it can't be
| broken.
|
| Why risk it? It's not worth losing your livelihood over a
| very slight convenience.
|
| Would you put a needle into your eye if everyone around
| you, except for your doctor, told you that you'll see
| better afterward? No of course not, you're not stupid.
| Would you put a needle into your eye if your doctor told
| you to? No, of course not, you are not trained for it. So
| why would you install a banking app which grants access
| to your finances, and which cannot be proven to be secure
| against other apps running on the same device? Of course
| that's _your_ choice, and _I_ choose to not put that risk
| in my life.
|
| At least with cash or a debit/credit card, the risk is
| physically separated.
|
| > _Do you not use a bank at all or not use any banking
| apps or websites?_
|
| I wish that were the case. Alas, banks are practically a
| requirement even for local communities. You'd be stupid
| to put all of your cash under your mattress or in your
| home. You'd be stupid to walk around all day every day
| with a significant chunk of cash/change. Keep excess cash
| in the bank or investments keeps it separated from the
| risk that your house is broken into or burns down, and
| separated from the risk of being mugged.
|
| Banks are regulated (in all countries I can think of) and
| federally insured in the US (I dunno about other
| countries' monetary insurances or policies). So if it's a
| separation of risk, then why undo all of that by walking
| around with all of your money in your phone? It's exactly
| the same problem but now in a brand-new electronic domain
| with little or no regulation at all. That's a stupid
| thing to do.
|
| So no, I do not use banking apps. Just as I don't put
| work shit on my phone, I also do not put banking shit on
| my phone. My phone is where non-technical people talk to
| me, and is high risk for incoming malware. Your employer
| doesn't want that, your bank doesn't want that.
|
| For the same reasons, I only open banking websites on a
| dedicated computer for the same reason.
|
| > _There are very few places in the US that up charge for
| credit card transactions_
|
| You already stated that "the merchant gets all except for
| a 2% fee". So (unless you want to argue that places take
| the fee at a loss) all places charge it, but many simply
| don't include that charge as a line-item on your receipt.
|
| It is therefore "often-hidden", which you quoted but
| ignored.
|
| > _You don't think the merchant network does anything?_
|
| I didn't say that at all. The merchant network does help
| prevent fraud and I use my CC for items that I worry
| could be fraudulent. I simply _don 't_ buy from Amazon
| because fraudulent activity is too high and it's not
| worth the hassle. But on the other hand: medical costs,
| computers, digital services, and even local vendors can
| be shady as fuck.
|
| But there are plenty of places where you can build trust
| with your community. Your grocery store with perishable
| foods is in my experience much less likely to defraud
| you, specifically because you're able to look at and
| inspect items before purchase.
|
| > _are you also opposed to debit transaction fees which
| are much lower and where there is a legsl cap?_
|
| That's twice now that you're putting words in my message
| that weren't there. Maybe you should read my message
| again in a few hours after your next meal.
|
| You're stuck thinking about fees. No, the fees themselves
| aren't what I'm worried about. I'm worried about shit
| companies like Amazon who have no moral qualms about
| mixing fraudulent items with authentic items. I'm hateful
| of companies like Google who have absolutely no interest
| in providing help or support to the real people that they
| harm. I'm resentful of "businesses" who steal your data
| and get you addicted to stupid shit, just so they can
| make a profit off of you. I'm distrustful of any
| "business" who only takes sales online, sends spam,
| steals or abuses data about you, uses dark patterns for
| "engagement" to get people to do what the business wants
| them to...
|
| It's not all doom and gloom. I use a lot of cash, but I
| don't use exclusively cash. I have debit cards and credit
| cards and they definitely serve their purposes too. But
| cash is way more useful than some people on Hacker News
| want you to believe: if someone is talking against cash
| then there's a high likelihood that person either has an
| agenda that won't benefit you or is naive enough to
| advance someone else's agenda that won't benefit you.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > Dunno, don't care. I'm not going to mix my banking
| stuff with my non-banking stuff.
|
| If you are really concerned with security, you should
| also be concerned with the security of your bank. Do you
| keep all of your money under your mattress?
|
| > Why risk it? It's not worth losing your livelihood over
| a very slight convenience.
|
| You realize that no one has ever lost money in an FDIC
| insured bank account because of either fraud or a bug in
| client software.
|
| Do you also never use credit cards or debit cards? There
| have also been security issues with POS terminals and
| large retailers.
|
| > Would you put a needle into your eye if your doctor
| told you to? No, of course not, you are not trained for
| it. So why would you install a banking app which grants
| access to your finances, and which cannot be proven to be
| secure against other apps running on the same device?
|
| So do you fly when no one has proven with a 100%
| certainty that the plane won't crash? Do you get in a
| car? Take medicines that haven't proven not to have side
| effects? Would you go to the hospital knowing there is a
| chance you can get an infection that antibiotics can't
| cure?
| inetknght wrote:
| > _If you are really concerned with security, you should
| also be concerned with the security of your bank._
|
| Yes, of course. There are reasons I don't bank with every
| bank under the sun.
|
| > _Do you keep all of your money under your mattress?_
|
| No. Do you?
|
| I'm starting to think you're not having this conversation
| in good faith.
|
| > _You realize that no one has ever lost money in an FDIC
| insured bank account because of either fraud or a bug in
| client software._
|
| You can claim that all you want.
|
| Meanwhile time is money and dealing with banking issues
| takes time out of my day. Meanwhile FDIC is insured via
| taxpayer money and so my taxes absolutely cover the fraud
| perpetuated by whoever.
|
| Nice trolling in the thread.
|
| > _So do you..._
|
| I fly because flying is regulated.
|
| I drive because driving is regulated.
|
| I take medicines that are regulated.
|
| I don't go to hospitals in the U.S. Fuck that noise.
|
| I'm done talking to a troll.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > Yes, of course. There are reasons I don't bank with
| every bank under the sun.
|
| But you have an issue with the security of Apple and
| Google but you don't have an issue with the security of
| your bank?
|
| You haven't seen the quality of software developers at
| the typical bank have you?
|
| > I'm starting to think you're not having this
| conversation in good faith.
|
| Your threat model is not backed up by any evidence
|
| > You can claim that all you want.
|
| Is my claim false?
|
| > Meanwhile time is money and dealing with banking issues
| takes time out of my day.
|
| And which banking issues have you had to deal with
| because the supposed insecurity of Apple and Android with
| respect to the banking apps?
|
| > Meanwhile FDIC is insured via taxpayer money and so my
| taxes absolutely cover the fraud perpetuated by whoever.
|
| Your funds aren't insured by taxpayer money. Banks pay
| into the system based on the deposits they have.
|
| And if you trust the fraud protection of your bank? Why
| are you worried about supposedly insecure phones that
| would cause fraud even though that hasn't happen since
| the modern phone?
|
| > I fly because flying is regulated. >I drive because
| driving is regulated. > I take medicines that are
| regulated.
|
| And banks aren't regulated? What is the threat model you
| are guarding against?
|
| > I don't go to hospitals in the U.S. Fuck that noise.
|
| You mentioned the FDIC which only governs the US. If you
| are in a car accident or have an illness, you are going
| to get treated outside of the US?
| fragmede wrote:
| it's way easier (for some people) to go to the ATM once a
| month and then have a physical pile of money you're
| using, ams physically see how much you're spending and
| adjust habits. A digital card that looks the same all
| month when you pull it out of your wallet has no such
| quality and is a basically scam on certain kinds of
| people to get them to spend more money.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| When you use a debit card, the amount is immediately
| deducted from your checking account and you can check to
| see how much you have left by logging into your account.
| egypturnash wrote:
| Yes, but do you do this every time you take the card out?
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I do this once per day. I have been doing it since the
| mid 90s before my bank had a website and you used a
| propriety money management program (forgot the name of
| it) that would dial into the bank and download posted
| transactions.
|
| Back then, there was a two to three day delay.
| fragmede wrote:
| That's true, but totally dismissive of what works and
| doesn't work for some people. A number in some app (that
| I annoyingly have to 2fa into) which I have to check on a
| debit card balance isn't at all helpful if you don't
| actually check it. For the obsessive smartphone app
| checker, I'm sure it works, but ask all your (close)
| friends what their current credit card balance is. I bet
| no one is closer than $100 and some probably aren't even
| within $500.
|
| By the time the card fails a transaction and is getting
| denied because the card, I'm already at the whatever
| store and have to give up the purchase in a hugely
| embarrassing way. A physical bit of cash that you have in
| your wallet and at home is, well, physically present and
| simply feels light when you're running low. A debit or
| credit card with a number in some app does not do that.
|
| 2fa is a large blocker here, and while it's
| understandable from a security practice (so I'm not any
| to turn that off), it's enough friction to not be
| convenient, and that's assuming you configure the banking
| app on your phone because you're not scared of attacks to
| your phone SMS (which you should be).
| scarface_74 wrote:
| My 2FA is my face...
|
| So the people who are too lazy to check their app are
| okay with going to an ATM?
|
| If I start overspending, I get alerts both when my
| balance gets low and when money is deducted from my
| savings account used as overdraft.
|
| I rarely get to that point and even when I do, I catch it
| before the offending transaction posts.
| fragmede wrote:
| > My 2FA is my face...
|
| You have your threat model and I have mine.
|
| https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254303493?sortBy=ran
| k
|
| Not enabling biometrics in the banking app means adding
| FaceID isn't enough.
|
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
|
| > So the people who are too lazy to check their app are
| okay with going to an ATM?
|
| If we're at the point we're calling people names I'm not
| sure further discussion will be productive. The ATM is on
| the way to the subway (which has poor reception), and
| we're talking about once a month here. It also uses a
| different part of my brain because I physically walk past
| to jog my brain (and walking does it in a way that
| driving past the freeway exit does not).
|
| Again, what's a number that's on a phone, even if it's
| being texted to you, going to do for physically altering
| the size and weight and feel of a debit/credit card?
| That's just another text that gets recieved and
| disappears from my brain until it's too late.
|
| I'm glad you've got a system that works for you, but the
| only thing that works about debit/credit card money is I
| end up spending more money than I would with cash.
| Changing habits to spend less money works by using cash
| works in a way that I couldn't get to work with a
| debit/credit card. (There are some places that don't take
| cash so I need to use debit/credit, but, for now at
| least, that's not the norm.)
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > You have your threat model and I have mine.
|
| Apple mitigated that issue last year.
|
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/120340
|
| > The ATM is on the way to the subway (which has poor
| reception), and we're talking about once a month here.
|
| And my phone is always on my person. You don't need
| "reception" to use your debit card.
|
| > Changing habits to spend less money works by using cash
| works in a way that I couldn't get to work with a
| debit/credit card
|
| And yet my 80 year old mom can as far as debit cards and
| my 82 year old dad just started using Apple Pay. He had a
| really old Android before that couldn't use Google Pay
| fragmede wrote:
| > Apple mitigated that issue last year.
|
| That much is useful, thanks!
| 9dev wrote:
| That is far too generalised for my taste. There are just
| as many people which tend to spend all the cash they have
| in their wallet because it isn't on their account
| anymore, so it's "spent already anyway", and vastly
| prefer keeping the tabs on their banking app, which
| provides a proper overview of their finances--no
| calculations and counting necessary. Maybe it's just an
| age thing?
| fragmede wrote:
| Okay. I added "for some people" to my original comment.
| Hope that helps.
|
| Taking the amount budgeted for petty cash means you only
| spend that much "that's spent already", which makes it
| easier to stick to a budget (because you can't spend cash
| you're not holding). if the problem is overspending, and
| there's a budget, there's not generally a problem with
| underspending that amount, so the idea that it forces
| more spending isn't a problem (for some people).
|
| Given news reports that (some people in) GenZ has trouble
| after joining the workforce with computer skills later
| generations take for granted, and other reports on how
| much GenZ is unable to save, I doubt it's an age thing.
| Some people are just better with physical objects vs
| digital. (Some people do just deal with it just fine,
| mind you.)
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > Given news reports that (some people in) GenZ has
| trouble after joining the workforce with computer skills
| later generations take for granted, and other reports on
| how much GenZ is unable to save, I doubt it's an age
| thing. Some people are just better with physical objects
| vs digital. (Some people do just deal with it just fine,
| mind you.)
|
| My (step)son has had his own bank account - joint with
| myself and my wife since he was 9 years old. I
| transferred his allowance to it. Before he was 12, he had
| to ask us for his balance - which he did frequently -
| because he couldn't get his own sign in.
|
| Since then, he has had his own sign in. He is 22 now and
| we still have the same joint account with him.
|
| It has overdraft protection to a savings account with
| $500 in it that we all use for overdraft protection.
|
| I know he checks his account often because when it does
| slightly overdraft and things are pending. He transfers
| money from his own savings account that is separate from
| ours to catch it.
|
| I taught him good money habits from the day that we
| became a family.
| furyofantares wrote:
| Because you get to do promiscuous arithmetic with
| strangers.
| Edman274 wrote:
| Quarters and dimes used to be made out of silver so a quarter
| had to be 2.5x the volume of a quarter so their metal values
| matched their face values ratios.
|
| > I find both constantly cluttering up my wallet.
|
| The majority of Americans do not have an ongoing problem of
| having too much cash in their wallet, even if you consider
| single dollars to be practically irrelevant. Most people
| would rather have their money in aggregate take up an
| inconvenient amount of space rather than having there be a
| risk of losing it because it's so physically small.
| mindslight wrote:
| I'm guessing you've never experienced a New York train ticket
| machine giving change for a $20 bill in $1 coins.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Annoying (a $2 coin would help) but at least feeding those
| coins back into the machine for tomorrow's ticket is
| reliable, unlike with paper bills.
| bityard wrote:
| I mean, feel free to send me all your worthless dollars and
| quarters if they bother you that much.
| ahazred8ta wrote:
| $20 of quarters, and $20 of dimes, both weigh exactly one
| pound.
| bradley13 wrote:
| The US is so weird about its currency. The repeated attempts to
| get rid of the dollar bill (dollar coins, two-dollar bill,
| etc.) have all "failed".
|
| I put "failed" in quotes, because all it requires is for the
| government to _do_ it. Take the one-dollar bills out of
| circulation, no discussion, done. At this point, take the two-
| dollar bills (no one will notice) and the penny as well.
| chii wrote:
| The metal producers for those pennies cry foul at the US
| gov't taking away jobs!
| OutOfHere wrote:
| A lot of people rely on the bills. You are completely out of
| touch with the people with your attempt to sabotage the
| printed currency.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Rely on what that couldn't be better served by $1 coins?
| api wrote:
| Coins are horribly inconvenient compared to bills.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Do you have any experience in countries with large
| denomination coins? Anything smaller than a quarter is
| super annoying, even the quarter is borderline. It says
| something when a countries largest coin is too small to
| be useful. A 500 Yen (~$4) coin OTOH, is super nice.
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| I'm in the UK which has PS1 and PS2 coins and the
| smallest note is PS5
|
| I'd much rather have PS1/PS2 notes instead
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > It says something when a countries largest coin is too
| small to be useful.
|
| Specifically, it says "we haven't redenominated our
| currency in a while".
| soap- wrote:
| Coins are simply worse than bills. They're too thick for
| something you'd be keeping mainly in your wallet or
| pocket.
| jltsiren wrote:
| Coins are easier to count than bills. They are thick
| enough that you never confuse two coins for one, even
| when they are stuck together. And they are also more
| convenient in your pocket, because you don't have to fold
| or otherwise organize them.
| packtreefly wrote:
| Dollar bills are usually in terrible condition. Folded
| corners, creases, dirt. Ten singles take up more space in
| my wallet than just about anything else I'd put in there.
|
| I'd rather have ten coins. They'll easily fit in the
| bottom of my pocket, and when I pull out change there's
| likely to be a useful amount of money in it.
| mmooss wrote:
| > Dollar bills are usually in terrible condition
|
| Do you get yours from selling drugs? Mine are usually
| fine, very rarely in 'terrible' condition.
| packtreefly wrote:
| Unfortunately, yes. Drugs are well-known to be the only
| product for which cash is an acceptable form of payment.
| The utility of hard currency really took a hit when all
| the hookers moved to Venmo.
| t-3 wrote:
| What in the world would a $1 coin be better than a bill
| for? Making a blackjack to ease the handover of $1 bills?
| trey-jones wrote:
| Well, about 25 years ago the EU issued 1 and 2 Euro coins
| (no bills for those denominations) and as far as I know
| still do. So it's working for them. When I lived over
| there (2005ish) I didn't care much for carrying a coin
| purse in addition to my wallet, but I think that's just a
| cultural/personal preference. Likely same as you.
| Symbiote wrote:
| A wallet sold in Europe would typically include a small
| pocket for coins.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Coins last much longer in circulation than bills, a coin
| can last decades while a bill only lasts a few years so
| some estimates put the yearly savings at 500-700 million
| a year in printing, paper, etc costs saved. It's worked
| just fine in other places they just had the courage to
| phase out printing of paper bills to force the issue.
| People would adapt quickly given no option but the soft
| handed approach basically guarantees people won't
| encounter the new coins regularly.
| mercutio2 wrote:
| US notes are much more durable than most other
| countries', and last much longer in circulation.
|
| The fed has calculated that the seignorage vs. printing
| costs of switching to coins about balance out for
| dollars.
|
| Pennies however: we keep them just for nostalgia.
| rtkwe wrote:
| That was the savings estimates at the time from sources
| in the government iirc so I think they would have
| included the relative durability of the cotton bank note
| in the calculations. [0] Of course that's just the
| savings not the costs but a lot of those are one time as
| different coin op mechanisms get updated to accept dollar
| coins.
|
| [0] The $1 notes also go through a lot more use in their
| life so they degrade much quicker iirc and a bit over 40%
| of the bills in circulation are $1 bills too so switching
| over to a coin that lasts decades instead of 6-7 years
| (https://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/how-long-is-the-
| life-spa...) would really cut down on printing costs.
| mercutio2 wrote:
| Printing is just not very expensive, relative to the size
| of the US economy. People like the $1 note. I just don't
| think it's going to happen for another 2x-4x reduction in
| the value of the note.
|
| Give it 15-40 years and we'll think about it again!
|
| Of course, by then, so much of commerce will be
| electronic that I don't think anyone will care about what
| notes still circulate, other than the $100, which is used
| more outside the US than inside.
| brookst wrote:
| Three problems:
|
| 1. Switching costs. There are a ton of vending machines
| and other automated stuff that takes dollar bills but not
| coins. You can say "oh they'd switch", and maybe, but
| they don't want to because it's expense and complexity
| for little/no benefit.
|
| 2. Critical mass. Similar problem: nobody will invest in
| supporting dollar coins as long as their customers don't
| use dollar coins. Customers won't use them because they
| won't accept them from banks and stores. And they won't
| accept them because they know lots of infra doesn't
| support them.
|
| 3. US psychology sees coins as "change", not money. If
| you see someone buying lunch with change, the assumption
| is they're homeless or something. It's irrational, but so
| what? And it would change... if we ever got over the
| hump.
|
| Don't think of the problem like a technocrat, where any
| 5% improvement is obviously worth it. Think of it like a
| marketer, where you have to change customer behavior, and
| that needs a 10x value prop.
|
| Or I guess we can think like autocrats: we know what's
| good for 'em and they'll just have to accept it.
| 9dev wrote:
| With that mindset, you're not going to accomplish
| anything at all. The same stagnation occurs with the
| switch from imperial units to metric.
|
| If modernising things is so scary you better not do it,
| other people will force the change on you, for better or
| worse, but you're out of the loop.
| sjsdaiuasgdia wrote:
| For many classes of vending machines, dollar bill support
| is going away without government intervention. For a
| while it's been very common in the US to see vending
| machines that have bill, maybe coin, and card options.
| It's increasingly common to find machines that only have
| card options, no cash. Products are more expensive and
| people use less cash generally...how many customers
| actually carry enough $1 bills to buy themselves a $3.75
| bottle of soda?
|
| They're already switching because it allows them to
| charge higher prices with less friction. You'll likely
| grumble a bit while you're feeding the 4th dollar bill
| into the machine but a card swipe or tap is the same
| level of customer effort regardless of cost.
|
| Vending machines will continue to move towards electronic
| payment as the preferred and eventually only widely
| available option, and will no longer have relevance to
| what a physical dollar looks like.
| kube-system wrote:
| Yes, it is happening over the course of many decades,
| naturally, as machines are updated/replaced as a matter
| of normal business.
|
| That's a very different thing in terms of switching costs
| than an immediate switch that demands replacement all at
| one time.
| toast0 wrote:
| All the novelty $1 coins since the Sacagawea offer the
| potential for a gradual shift too. Modern multi-
| denomination coin mechs are likely to accept them, unlike
| the Susan B Anthony's that were too close to quarters
| [1]. Some of them even have a sticker near the coin slot
| advertising the feature. So if someone has given you a
| dollar coin in change (probably a government cashier or
| machine), you might be able to use it in a machine. I
| couldn't find a well reported number on dollar coin
| acceptance --- just an undated claim of 30% of machines
| accepting them according to Vending Market Watch but no
| link to an article or anything. I did see an article on
| VMW from 2011 about cash recyclers that allow a machine
| to take a larger bill and issue change with smaller bills
| rather than only coins, that featured a quote that
| resonates with me:
|
| > "Customers have told me firsthand how thrilled they are
| to receive bills as change instead of dollar coins," said
| Mike Gallagher, service manager for Coca-Cola Bottling
| Co. "Sales on those machines have increased, and the
| technology has been extremely reliable." [2]
|
| [1] I did see one coin mech in the wild that took Anthony
| dollars; but it was a spendy arcade game and had a
| dispenser next to it to get the dollar coins you needed
| from bills or quarters. And there were big signs about
| it, at the Disneyland StarCade in the 90s.
|
| [2] https://www.vendingmarketwatch.com/technology/article
| /102518...
| kube-system wrote:
| There was always a potential, but without a plurality of
| momentum, they're not going to replace their
| predecessors. The early 00s was the best chance for this,
| in the wake of the Susan B Anthony reissuance and the new
| Sacagawea dollar, when there was a decent amount of
| public interest, but as it turns out, anything less than
| 100% acceptance is just not as good as the 100%
| acceptance of quarters in coin machines, or dollar bills
| in bill readers. People won't use them if they aren't
| accepted, and retailers won't accept them if they aren't
| used.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| That's more of an issue with the US financial
| infrastructure. There are plenty of poorer countries where
| mobile payments are more the norm than in the US.
| mindslight wrote:
| Great idea. We should endeavor to be a poorer country
| with even less ability to escape corporate surveillance.
| </s>
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Yes, I'm really worried about what exactly? The places
| where cash are feasible to be used - in person
| transactions - aren't the places where I would worry
| about government funding out what I'm doing.
|
| Yes I know about regressive states and tracking women who
| might be pregnant to "protect the unborn".
| mindslight wrote:
| Denial is a common coping mechanism about the ever
| growing corporate surveillance state and all the ways its
| power may (and thus eventually will) be wielded to
| further economically disenfranchise most people.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| So yes big corp is going to go out of its way to make it
| harder for people to give it money?
| mindslight wrote:
| I have no idea what you're alluding to. Perhaps you need
| to increase the scope of your analysis?
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > be wielded to further economically disenfranchise most
| people
|
| Is Big Corp really going out of its way to
| "disenfranchise" consumers to make it harder to give them
| money?
| mindslight wrote:
| First, yes companies make it directly harder for
| customers to give them money all the time with repeating
| high-discount sales, bespoke proprietary web/mobile store
| apps, captchas, loyalty/sunk cost programs, etc. These
| all frustrate market efficiency, so the company can then
| capture some of the surplus value accumulating due to
| friction. "Creating a moat" (aka market inefficiency) is
| like business school 101.
|
| But the longer term disenfranchisement trend I see is
| making the numeric value of money itself ever more
| depreciated in favor of fine grained price
| discrimination. So it's not that it will be "harder to
| give them money", but rather that you will be paying
| twice as much (ie not receiving coupons/vouchers to
| obtain the real competitive price) based on them knowing
| that you personally will still buy.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > it's not that it will be "harder to give them money",
| but rather that you will be paying twice as much (ie not
| receiving coupons/vouchers to obtain the real competitive
| price) based on them knowing that you personally will
| still buy.
|
| JCPenney has been doing that for decades. When Ron
| Johnson - the former CEO of Apple retail - came in as CEO
| and tried to get rid of the constant coupons and "sales"
| and implement everyday low prices, consumers rebelled and
| he was rapidly fired.
|
| Even with cash, stores have loyalty programs that
| consumers gladly sign up for. In the mid 90s, I worked at
| Radio Shack which was infamous for tracking how often
| employees asked for names and addresses just to buy
| batteries
| mindslight wrote:
| I don't see how that addresses what I said. Sure, similar
| dynamics have existed for a while. And sure, many
| consumers are happy with simulated achievement. That
| doesn't mean they aren't getting taken advantage of, or
| that the dynamic won't continue to get ever worse as the
| corporate surveillance machine gains more capabilities.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| How much "worse" can they get? Radio Shack for instance
| has your information about your sales patterns since the
| 1990s even when using cash.
|
| Credit cards vs cash is the least of your problems and on
| a meta level, users have been willing to give their
| information to retailers and been doing couponimg for
| decades.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| > Is Big Corp really going out of its way to
| "disenfranchise" consumers to make it harder to give them
| money?
|
| This happens _all the time_ for various reasons.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Please explain the "various reasons" that companies want
| to make less money?
| mmooss wrote:
| > all it requires is for the government to do it. Take the
| one-dollar bills out of circulation, no discussion, done.
|
| It turns out that democratically elected officials are
| compelled to be responsive to the voters, and don't want to
| anger them unnecessarily or waste time and political capital
| on low-value issues.
| toast0 wrote:
| > The US is so weird about its currency. The repeated
| attempts to get rid of the dollar bill (dollar coins, two-
| dollar bill, etc.) have all "failed".
|
| > I put "failed" in quotes, because all it requires is for
| the government to do it. Take the one-dollar bills out of
| circulation, no discussion, done. At this point, take the
| two-dollar bills (no one will notice) and the penny as well.
|
| The US electorate is no stranger to single issue voting. If
| one party spearheads the elimination of the dollar bill,
| expect them to lose the next several rounds of elections and
| the other party to reinstate dollar bills. If it's
| bipartisan, expect a dollar bill party to surface and
| reinstate dollar bills.
|
| Also, I don't think the $2 bill has anything to do with
| trying to get rid of the $1 bill? They've been produced most
| years since 1862, just a 10 year hiatus between 1966 and
| 1976.
| mike_d wrote:
| LOL. The lack of a consistent design is a core accessibility
| feature.
|
| Most "blind" people have some amount of vision. So starting in
| 1997 they began adding the very large numerals on the back and
| visual inconsistencies to the front so you can tell them apart
| with limited sight. Have a look at the bills side by side and
| you can see how they vary the background gradients and layout
| for easier identification:
| https://www.uscurrency.gov/denominations/100
|
| With the 2020s series refresh (Catalyst) all the denominations
| will get a tactile area to assist the completely blind.
|
| The government also provides free of charge to any legally
| blind person a small device that reads special markings on the
| bill and will audibly announce or vibrate the denomination.
| They also funded iOS and Android apps that use the camera.
| jdietrich wrote:
| The accessibility of USD notes is notoriously poor. EUR, AUD
| or CHF banknotes have a consistent visual theme, but each
| denomination is a different size, has a bright and distinct
| predominant colour and they've had tactile features for
| decades. Sure, they look like monopoly money, but that's a
| good thing.
|
| https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/visually/html/index.en.html
| Symbiote wrote:
| The US dollar notes are 7 different shades of nothing much,
| with a man's face in the middle, a near-identical fancy
| border, and a circular stamp on each side in black and dark
| green. The numbers are in a decorative font, and merged into
| the border.
|
| On the reverse, there's a building and a similar decorative
| border.
|
| Your link even describes the "subtle background colors"!
|
| Only the $5 and $100 have a bold, contrasting number.
|
| All the banknotes are the same size.
|
| I challenge you to find a circulating currency with worse
| accessibility.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Learn more about US politics, and how hard it is to change
| simple things. You can start by looking up how hard it is to
| discontinue the penny.
| BobAliceInATree wrote:
| apropos:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/01/magazine/worthless-
| pennie...
| Kon-Peki wrote:
| > I hoped to watch the birth of a new cohort of pennies in
| person, but a Mint press representative insisted to me that
| he and other Mint professionals had "no idea" when or where
| the Mint would ever be making pennies -- that these people
| could not narrow it down by day, or even week, at either
| facility. Did this mean, I asked, that it was standard
| procedure at the largest coin-making operation on Earth
| (Philadelphia), which last year minted more than two
| billion pennies, to decide "day of" which of six possible
| denominations it was going to produce? "Yeah," he said --
| though, to be fair, there is vanishingly little proof he
| was paying attention to what either of us was saying.
|
| Dear me.
| NoMoreNicksLeft wrote:
| There's no need to go to the trouble of making these changes.
| Cash money has been illegal in the United States since before
| most here were even born. If they discover you have cash, it
| can be confiscated (and charged with a crime... not you, but
| the cash can be charged). If you deposit more than $10,000 at a
| bank, the banks are deputized to snitch on you. If you deposit
| exactly $10,000, they snitch on you. And, because some
| criminals might deposit less than $10,000 to try to avoid
| consequences, if you deposit _less_ than $10,000. Not just
| banks, if you bought a new car (or new RV, or new tractor, etc)
| at a dealership with cash, they 'd have to report that too.
| Social norms have been subtly manipulated to convince you that
| people who have cash or pay with cash are shady.
| toast0 wrote:
| When was the last time the $1 bill changed meaningfully? You
| can't get more consistent than that.
|
| The $20 changed significantly in 1998 and had a refresh in
| 2004. 20 years of consistent design since then though.
|
| And all the bills are the same shape, size, and color, other
| than war issues. Can't get more consistent than that.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| To actually answer the question:
|
| The redesigns were mainly about preventing counterfeiting.
| That's also the reason for continuing to change them
| periodically. In some places outside the US money shops and
| banks won't exchange the old style notes after a certain time.
| Changing the design resets counterfeit operations back to
| square one. Then they added the embedded strip. Color doubles
| or quadruples the number of printing plates and steps needed
| and truly large (or state-sponsored) operations may have to
| start over when that happens.
|
| However someone in Congress got a bee in their bonnet about the
| changes and passed a law that prohibits Treasury from
| redesigning the $1 bill so it will continue to remain
| disjointed. That irks me tremendously. There never were any
| plans to redesign the $2 which also irks me.
|
| As for bill size Treasury/Fed has this philosophy not to stray
| too far for the appearance of stability. The US doesn't
| demonetize currency unlike many governments so your grandma can
| redeem an ancient $20 for a modern one without question. The
| cotton rag paper, identical size, etc is part of that
| stability. Also why the color changes were so subtle. The
| secondary reason is the huge chaos it would create as millions
| of bill acceptors will not or even cannot take a firmware
| update and would need complete replacement to handle a new
| size.
|
| You might not _agree_ with the reasons. They may not be _good_
| reasons. But stability/tradition, Congress being idiots, and
| expense are the reasons the bills don't change much (or at all
| for $1/$2).
| jjwatt wrote:
| Is there anyway to order new bills like this but cut? It doesn't
| seem like banks are offering anything uncirculated nowadays.
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| Banks certainly receive packs of new notes (from the Fed) all
| the time, so try asking nicely, or ask them to order it if its
| something like $2 bills that they don't normally have. I've
| read comments on collector forums of others getting new notes
| from the bank like this.
| a12k wrote:
| When I get cash from the bank teller, as rare as that is
| nowadays, it is regularly brand new and uncirculated. I bet you
| could just withdraw cash and ask for uncirculated and they
| would oblige. They're hard to count because they stick
| together.
| rkagerer wrote:
| TIL there are $100,000 bills and they are illegal to possess
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_one-hundred-th...
| cmckn wrote:
| Similarly, the Bank of England uses PS100,000,000 notes
| internally:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bank_of_England_%C2%A3100,000,...
| Eavolution wrote:
| Somewhat vaguely related to this, not all bank notes in the
| UK are made equal. Good luck getting someone in England to
| accept an Ulster Bank, Danske bank, or Bank of Ireland note,
| despite them all being pound sterling notes issued in the UK
| worth the exact same amount.
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| That's not really them not being made equal, that's just
| people being ignorant of them
|
| you have the same problem spending $2 bills in the US
| gsck wrote:
| Ulster Bank notes are some of the few notes in the world
| that are portrait in orientation, probably doesnt help with
| the acceptance of them elsewhere in the UK
| bitdivision wrote:
| Danske bank? Isn't that Danish?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banknotes_of_the_pound_sterli
| n...
|
| Looks as though it's just Ulster, Scotland and the Crown
| Dependencies nowadays
|
| Edit: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danske_Bank_(Northern_I
| reland) Danske bank is a Northern Irish bank (I had never
| heard of this)
| nxobject wrote:
| I wonder: if these are essentially just a "paper trail" for
| deposits made at the BoD by issuing banks, why bother with a
| physical banknote at all? In the case of an insolvency of a
| bank, the bank's notes would still continue circulating,
| after all.
| trogdor wrote:
| Wikipedia claims that they are illegal to possess, but their
| source for that claim is an Investopedia article that doesn't
| cite any law or other source. I'm skeptical.
| nlh wrote:
| (Professional coin & currency nerd here)
|
| They're illegal not because of a law but because they were
| never issued for public use. They were used (briefly) for
| internal treasury / fed transfers. (Sort of like the mythical
| trillion-dollar coin that gets talked about every time the
| debt ceiling conversation comes up).
|
| Because they were never issued privately or meant for use
| outside of the treasury system, if an individual were to own
| one it's because it was stolen or otherwise improperly taken
| from the treasury.
|
| There are rumors that a few exist in private collections (and
| I've heard of one a single degree away from me), but I've
| never seen it or confirmed that it's anything more than a
| rumor.
|
| There is one in the Smithsonian national collection however,
| and if you get an appointment to view the collection you can
| see and hold it. Pretty cool.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| Only illegal because they'd have to be stolen. Unlike the
| 500/1000/5000/10000 notes the $100,000 notes were never issued
| to the public. They were a relic of the days of physical
| currency transfer between banks.
|
| Not that many 500/1000/5000/10000 notes were used in practice
| either. Less than a thousand of the big ones and a few hundred
| thousand of the "smaller" ones even exist. They're all in
| collections now as the Fed requires banks to return them for
| shredding if deposited. Collectors will pay a lot more than
| face value for them so you'd be nuts to try to spend one.
| kleiba wrote:
| Gift-wrapping an otherwise empty box with one of these could make
| for a fun gift.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Looks like they make a nice vig on it. Maybe 100% profit.
| indiantinker wrote:
| Oh! Nice wallpaper.
| anonu wrote:
| 50 $1s for $86 - thats highway robbery
| lupire wrote:
| Wait till you find out what paintings cost and what paint
| coats.
| rybosworld wrote:
| There was a time when the mint would sell coins and bills at
| face value. The problem is, people started using that for
| manufactured spending to rack up credit card points. They added
| a premium to prevent this.
| valarauko wrote:
| That seems reasonable, but why would the US Mint care about
| manufactured spend for credit card companies?
| scintill76 wrote:
| I believe in some cases there was no premium at all, not
| even shipping, so widespread manufactured spending was
| losing the Mint much more money than they were prepared for
| when they started the program.
| valarauko wrote:
| I don't follow. Why would Manufactured Spend
| _specifically_ cost the Mint money? It 's not great for
| the credit card company, sure, but why the Mint? If the
| Mint was previously eating the interchange fees &
| shipping, ok, but that's not a manufactured spend
| specific issue.
| rybosworld wrote:
| It's not free for the Mint. Also, credit card companies
| aggressively shut down manufactured spending when they
| notice it.
| valarauko wrote:
| > credit card companies aggressively shut down
| manufactured spending when they notice it.
|
| I'm familiar with the concept of manufactured spend, and
| why credit card companies would try to clamp down on it.
| What I don't get is why the US Mint would care one way or
| the other for the concerns of credit card companies. The
| usual way to eliminate manufactured spend would be to add
| a credit card specific transaction fee that cancels out
| the spend points. By the Mint increasing the base price
| for everybody, this affects even people who might be
| paying with a debit card, or an ACH transaction (not sure
| if they're options, just positing).
| kube-system wrote:
| > The usual way to eliminate manufactured spend would be
| to add a credit card specific transaction fee that
| cancels out the spend points.
|
| Before 2013, this likely would have violated their credit
| card processing agreement.
|
| And also, it would be illegal in some states.
| valarauko wrote:
| That seems ... odd. I can pay my apartment rent with a
| debit card with a fixed transaction fee (eg, $999.99 and
| up to $1,999.99 the service fee is $4.95), while covering
| it with a credit card has a different fee structure of a
| flat 2.95%. This is with Rent Cafe in NYC, and from what
| I can tell, it's a very widespread platform across the
| country. The 2.95% fee specific to credit cards will wipe
| out the points earned for a credit card under almost all
| circumstances.
| kube-system wrote:
| Platforms like RentCafe are highly configurable to
| support local laws, because the nature of landlord/tenant
| law is that it is highly variable by state.
|
| Going though that same effort is a waste of time and
| implementation budget for something like selling novelty
| bills.
| valarauko wrote:
| Fair enough - in which case the Mint just needs to pad
| the sale price a bit to cover interchange fees, and make
| a little extra on top, and shipping can be extra. 10% on
| top of the face value should be more than enough, and
| would have the side effect of sapping any would be
| manufactured spend. Yet the prices on the Mint are way
| above that - it looks like more than 50%. Sure, if the
| novelty or collector market values it at that premium,
| great. What I struggle to understand is that this is
| _primarily_ to combat manufactured spend. I still don 't
| see why manufactured spend is a problem for the Mint to
| solve, rather than the credit card companies.
| kube-system wrote:
| > What I struggle to understand is that this is primarily
| to combat manufactured spend.
|
| I agree with you, it is well known that these collector
| products are intended to generate revenue.
|
| Also, they literally have their pricing rationale in
| their FAQs:
|
| https://www.usmint.gov/help-center/most-popular-
| questions.ht...
|
| > We cannot use any tax dollars to fund our numismatic
| operations.
|
| > The United States Mint's numismatic programs are self-
| sustaining and operate at no cost to the taxpayer. Any
| excess funds are returned to the Treasury General Fund to
| reduce the annual budget deficit of the federal
| government.
| aaronharnly wrote:
| I calculated the "cost per dollar" of all of the offerings on
| the website at the moment.
|
| The best "deal" is the most expensive - $100 x 16 for $1,860,
| at $1.16 per dollar. The worst deal is the cheapest - $1 x 5
| for $18.50, at $3.70 per dollar.
|
| Sheet here - corrections welcome:
|
| https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Nb_WLW_WxOYSUS12fslf...
| kube-system wrote:
| 72% markup is quite reasonable for a novelty product. I worked
| in a small specialty store as a kid and our standard markup was
| 100%.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| Heck of a markup on these things. $2, eight-note sheet, that's
| $16 before shipping and whatever else. Add $20 ... because
| they're in demand? idk...
| kubb wrote:
| Printing money costs money too.
| lolinder wrote:
| But these notes stop the printing process early--the
| purchaser is on the hook to cut them out. So these should
| cost _less_ than the fully printed and cut bills if we 're
| going by pure cost of creation.
|
| Do banks pay upwards of $1.50 on the dollar for new bills?
| HarHarVeryFunny wrote:
| No, but the US mint pays 3c to make each 1c coin, so
| there's that!
| shawabawa3 wrote:
| they only sell them as a novelty, and as a novelty they can
| charge a premium
| lolinder wrote:
| Right, I think that's the actual answer.
| jongjong wrote:
| They should also make them in a small roll format...
| nlh wrote:
| (Professional coin & currency nerd here)
|
| Fun fact about these -- when the treasury first issued these,
| many people decided to cut them into odd off-center pieces and
| sell the resulting notes as miscut errors.
|
| Once that started happening, the treasury (BEP to be specific)
| very quickly changed the serial numbers so they're all very
| recognizable as having come from an uncut sheet. I didn't check
| the latest for all denominations, but I know for $1 bills they
| all start with 99.
|
| So if you see a "miscut dollar error" for sale on eBay or the
| like, always check the serial. If it starts with 99 then it's
| just someone who had some fun with a pair of scissors and it's
| not a real error.
|
| For example, to wit:
|
| https://www.ebay.com/itm/135364285098
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| Maybe that's a way to recoup paying $86 for $50?
| rufugee wrote:
| I'm shocked someone would pay $500 for an erroneously cut $1
| bill.
| bdcravens wrote:
| People will pay extra for currency that has zero errors, and
| only an interesting serial number.
| nxobject wrote:
| To wit: the Mint will also sell you in line with Chinese
| numerology collectible bills with "777"s or "888"s in their
| SNs with a decorative envelope. Bless the marketing exec
| who's finding nontraditional markets for collectible
| currency.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > the Mint will also sell you in line with Chinese
| numerology collectible bills with "777"s or "888"s in
| their SNs
|
| For Chinese numerology, you'd want 666.
| indrora wrote:
| Sevens are a massive number in Chinese numerology: The 7
| parts (yin/yang/metals), the 7 steps, 7 captures, etc.
|
| Eights are symbols of prosperity, wealth, generosity,
| good fortune in business, etc.
|
| Six is a kinda useless number for money -- Smoothness and
| whatnot are less for money and more for one's tongue.
| You'd name a wine after a six (I've seen "Dice Wine"
| referring to 6-sided dice) but not look for it in bills
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| Just because it's listed at $500, doesn't mean someone will
| pay that.
| tartoran wrote:
| You underestimate what people pay for. I fall into the same
| trap though.
| bityard wrote:
| The sold listings for "miscut dollar bill" would beg to
| differ.
|
| I am _always_ and _continually_ surprised at what people
| will pay for things. Literally _nobody_ scaled back their
| consumption or purchasing during post-COVID inflation. Home
| prices are sky-high but it's still a sellers market because
| buyers are scared that prices will jump again and instead
| of simply being a difficult purchase, maybe next year it
| will be an impossible one. Must be easy money being a
| realtor right now.
|
| Every time I have sold something on Craigslist or FB
| Marketplace in the last few years, I list it 25% higher
| than what I'd actually pay if I were buying it myself and
| expect to be negotiated down to something sensible. So far,
| excluding the low-effort moronic "what's your lowest price"
| texts, exactly ZERO buyers have tried to negotiate down.
|
| I have come to the conclusion that most people simply have
| no upper limit to what they will pay for something they
| want. A few will scoff and turn away. Some will complain
| about it on the Internet, but most will buy it anyway. I
| don't run a business but if I did, this would be my golden
| rule of pricing.
| gosub100 wrote:
| People have such a fascination with anything "rare". It's
| such a meme on ebay how often the word "RARE" is used.
| uneekname wrote:
| ...and now that Ebay listing says "477 viewed in the last 24
| hours!"
| nlh wrote:
| Hahah up to 721 now. That guy must think he hit the jackpot!
| :)
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| It said 1800 now for me. :)
| nlh wrote:
| 2200 now! New business idea -- use eBay listings for HN
| post analytics.
|
| I'm....not sure....how any of that would work. But hey!
| Business!
| black_puppydog wrote:
| nice touch that the ruler is inscribed "do unto others..." :D
| muhammadusman wrote:
| kinda off topic but since you're an expert here: what do people
| do with these uncut sheets? Is it mainly for collectors?
|
| also, my favorite form of getting currency is $2 bills in a 100
| stack (so $200) from the bank. I used to use these for gift
| money on holidays :) but unfortunately my credit union doesn't
| order new stacks anymore, just jumbled up old $2 bills now.
| nlh wrote:
| A great question - it's something the BEP offers to
| collectors basically for the cool factor. People frame them,
| give them as gifts, etc. It's just kind of fun to see real
| money as it comes off the press (and, thankfully, it inspires
| lots of collectors!)
|
| $2 bills are SUPER fun. 99.9% are not worth more than $2, but
| they still bring a smile to peoples' faces when you leave
| them as tips, etc. I always keep a stack in my cash box at
| coin shows to give out as change to kids, tips to the pages,
| etc.
| j7ake wrote:
| Is there a market to buy 2 dollar bills for less than two?
| You say they're worth less so maybe it's an arbitrage
| opportunity
| furyofantares wrote:
| > You say they're worth less
|
| They said they're (mostly) not worth _more_ than $2.
|
| They aren't worth less than $2 either. They are worth $2.
| TrainedMonkey wrote:
| $2 bills are somewhat rare and are considered lucky. We
| could use math to prove that on average $2 dollar bill is
| worth more than $2. 1 - There exist collectable $2 dollar
| bills which are worth significantly more than $2. 2 -
| there are no $2 dollar bills which are worth less than $2
| due to being legal tender. From 1 and 2 - average value
| of all $2 bills is above $2.
| sangnoir wrote:
| Counterpoint: there are places in the world where people
| will not accept a $2 bill due to unfamiliarity - it may
| as well be a $7 bill. Therefore, there exists a $2 that's
| worth nothing as legal tender.
| toast0 wrote:
| All it takes is a cooperating bank teller, $200, and some
| patience and you can order a strap of $2's. Chances are
| large that 100 uncirculated $2 bills in sequential order
| will be ready for you to pick up in a few days.
|
| I don't expect there's much more value than $200 in
| there, but if you disagree, you're welcome to figure out
| what your local bank's limit on currency ordering is :P
| kibibyte wrote:
| I'm visiting Vietnam for Tet, and one cultural quirk of
| theirs that I've learned is that $2 bills are considered
| lucky money. So much so that kids there will hold onto
| those $2 bills as keepsakes (though they could spend them).
| And thus I made my first ever trip to the bank to special
| order a bunch of $2s.
|
| Something I wonder is if an uncut sheet of $2 bills would
| be considered extraordinarily lucky, because it's a bunch
| of $2s in nearly mint condition. Or if it would be
| considered incredibly unlucky because those kids would have
| no easy way of cutting them perfectly.
| cabirum wrote:
| Wallpaper?
| qingcharles wrote:
| I bought a sheet of $2 bills and tried to cut them myself
| with scissors first. My wife took one look at my handiwork
| and said "Well, you're going to jail."
| type_enthusiast wrote:
| Steve Wozniak famously would get a bunch of $2 uncut sheets,
| and have them perforated and bound into a tear-off book.
| Then, he would dramatically produce the book and tear out a
| sheet of them to pay for things, as a sort of gag. I think it
| got him investigated by the Secret Service at one point.
| bossyTeacher wrote:
| > I think it got him investigated by the Secret Service at
| one point.
|
| Is it illegal?
| tedunangst wrote:
| It is discouraged to well actually I didn't technically
| say that they were counterfeit although someone who is
| not as very smart as me may have incorrectly concluded
| that from my ambiguous statements.
| unregistereddev wrote:
| Woz pays a print shop to perforate them so that he can troll
| people by tearing perforated bills off a sheet and handing
| them out. If anyone asks where he got them, he says "Oh I
| have some friends at a print shop that do these up for me"
| and leaves out the part where they started as uncut sheets of
| legal currency.
|
| https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v18n36a40.html
|
| I wouldn't advise doing this. Story goes he's been pulled
| into a room by the secret service for questioning.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| Shame the link in the article to read the rest of the story
| doesn't work
|
| Edit: full story: https://web.archive.org/web/2018031108481
| 1/http://archive.wo...
| jabroni_salad wrote:
| Could just watch Mr woz explain it directly:
| https://youtu.be/LJ1TIYxm1vM?si=o2GHQaFirc9_alwe
|
| I will point out since this site is full of professional
| pedants, Woz plainly enjoys the art and craft of
| exaggerating stories and not correcting interviewers :)
| triyambakam wrote:
| Is it illegal to purposefully cut it that way?
| KETHERCORTEX wrote:
| If I recall correctly, as long as it has more than half of
| one bill in one piece, it's okay. Good luck trying to pay for
| stuff though.
| charlieyu1 wrote:
| People do the same with uncut sheets of MTG cards, but I doubt
| these will sell for high enough to be worthwhile
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Seems like the sheet of 50 $1 bills would look pretty framed.
| joering2 wrote:
| Interesting to see US Mint site on the HN. Few interesting facts
| from someone who is collecting US currency for 20 years:
|
| - these are great gift items for your rich friends or
| businessmen. The $1 sheet does come with only slight overcharge
| and everyone I gifted ended up hanging it in their office wall.
| Its a great conversation starter because majority of people do
| not know US dollars are produced in sheets nor that civilians can
| easily and legally purchase them off the US mint site.
|
| - on the downside I almost missed my international flight because
| TSA agent could not comprehend that this is not fake home-printed
| sheet of $100. The new $100s have the famous security strip
| engraved and I would imagine putting large number thru airport
| security machine will tip it as attempt to smuggle large amount
| of US currency (you supposed to report anything over $10,000 in
| cash (whichever currency) when you enter or leave US border). So
| the TSA got warning on their screen and his eyes almost popped
| out when he unroll a sheet of 16 x $100 bills on one sheet of
| paper. Other travelers had fun seeing it too. Its only that his
| supervisor let me through quickly because he said a month ago
| there was some money summit in NYC and he got plenty of people
| going back and forth with these sheets.
|
| - I think everyone should order a single $1 sheet to have on
| their wall as it is a great conversation starter.
| danielodievich wrote:
| I tip exclusively with $2 bills because bartenders/event
| staff/doormen/shuttle people then always remember me. I get them
| from the bank and they are invariably crisp and never been
| folded. They kind of stick together because of this, too.
| ellisd wrote:
| Same! Nothing speaks louder than having a wallet that's barely
| able to fold because it's full of $2 bills, and being 'that
| person' who pays exclusively with them. It immediately gives
| you a unique flair.
|
| Also, I've noticed that requesting $2 bills is an interesting
| test of your bank's ability to perform its job as a member bank
| of the Federal Reserve. I've had so many tellers tell me that
| $2 bills no longer exist, only to have their managers offer to
| call me when they arrive in about a week's time.
| virtualwhys wrote:
| Looking at the images and the price of eggs I can't help but
| think...
|
| expensive toilet paper
| lacoolj wrote:
| Are you allowed to use bills for purchase that you cut yourself
| (like, from one of these sheets)?
| yellowapple wrote:
| I'll have to keep these in mind for wrapping presents next
| Christmas.
| kridsdale1 wrote:
| I was thinking of taking a large roll to the tailor...
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