[HN Gopher] Ads chew through half of mobile data
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Ads chew through half of mobile data
        
       Author : mahirsaid
       Score  : 191 points
       Date   : 2025-01-05 16:06 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nextpit.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nextpit.com)
        
       | isoprophlex wrote:
       | Well, nextpit.com, you're really no better than the rest of them.
       | 
       | This could have been a few kilobytes of static html...
        
         | nerflad wrote:
         | Blogspam singularity is imminent. Also: this 'article' is from
         | 2016.
        
         | lelandfe wrote:
         | This is desktop, not mobile, but: I turned off ad blockers,
         | scrolled to the bottom, and waited.
         | 
         | 60.9MB transferred https://imgur.com/a/ftGkR3m. They are in
         | fact worse than the rest of them. It is still going up as the
         | ads rotate. I count 11 ad placements.
        
           | ndriscoll wrote:
           | Saving the article text locally and gzipping it (which lacks
           | html tags, but should be approximately right), it's ~1.5 kB.
           | So 2kB for the article and say 5kB for a cacheable site-wide
           | template is what things "ought" to be.
           | 
           | My 1GB mobile data plan should be enough to read at least 10s
           | of thousands of pages in a month. Instead at 60MB, I could
           | read... 16. Naturally I never use mobile data, and my only
           | real use for a phone plan at all at this point is being
           | forced to have SMS for banking.
        
             | benreesman wrote:
             | I'm due for a new phone and I'm strongly considering going
             | to a dumb phone with a tablet around the house for
             | browsing. I can carry a Kindle or something to kill time
             | waiting for a train.
        
               | dleeftink wrote:
               | Question for the thread*: are we at a point where we
               | build apps that chew through ad/user data, but put
               | ourselves in a position to not have our data chewed on?
               | 
               | *Mostly asking because I have come across this sentiment
               | before, not because I think op(s) are engaged in this
        
               | fn-mote wrote:
               | All of the people posting about adblockers have certainly
               | done something about their rate of data use.
               | 
               | Is the question "how many of you Adblock users also work
               | in advertising tech?"
        
               | jkestner wrote:
               | I'd do that but a smartphone is unfortunately a great
               | pocket camera. The sweet spot for me would be something
               | like a modern version of the Nokia N95 -- great camera,
               | unrestricted OS that lets me write apps in Python or
               | whatever, and terrible web browsing experience.
        
           | cjs_ac wrote:
           | > 60.9MB transferred
           | 
           | Opening this page 6 and a half times would exceed the monthly
           | download limit on the first broadband internet plan my family
           | had about twenty years ago in Australia.
        
         | wiether wrote:
         | Yeah I thought the same.
         | 
         | Even though I use an adblocker, I got a huge table showing
         | three Amazon products that took more space screen than any of
         | the text block of the actual article.
         | 
         | I can't even imagine how the site looks like without an
         | adblocker...
        
           | readthenotes1 wrote:
           | I saw no ads with Firefox/ublock origin.
        
         | mattmcknight wrote:
         | uBlock counter got up to 26 before I was done skimming the
         | article.
        
         | troupo wrote:
         | On top of that they kindly share all your data with 383
         | "partners", and you have to click "no" one by one to opt-out
        
       | Biologist123 wrote:
       | Fantastic example of a negative externality. Question: if the
       | data costs were internalised, would an advertising-based revenue
       | model be sustainable?
        
         | noprocrasted wrote:
         | Advertising doesn't inherently imply wastefulness or even being
         | spyware or a malware & scam vector.
         | 
         | If all the negative externalities were properly priced in, a
         | lot of bottom-feeding crap at all layers of the stack will die
         | off, but advertising itself will remain and would actually
         | become _better_ as a result for all parties involved.
        
           | tomrod wrote:
           | Perhaps not inherently, but it certainly exists this way now.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | The biggest negative externality of advertising is the fact
         | that it drives mass overconsumption.
        
           | Biologist123 wrote:
           | If all the externalities were priced in, the model would
           | certainly cease to exist. Several years ago I found a UN
           | report saying the same about business more generally. I've
           | recently tried to find it again, but it seems to have been
           | removed.
        
         | soared wrote:
         | Yes - advertising is very profitable. Increasing the cost would
         | lead to a short term reduction in spend by advertisers, which
         | would squeeze the adtech industry. They'd respond with
         | improvements to their specs which reduce bandwidth and return
         | levels closer to normal. Totally fixable problem with the
         | correct incentives.
         | 
         | Interesting note, the privacy sandbox apis that google (was) is
         | pushing were extremely bad for bandwidth to the point that in
         | early tests our servers often did not respond in time to
         | successfully bid in an auction. This occurred in many steps
         | different steps of the auction (ssps as well). Google of course
         | kind of moved away from this set up before fixes were
         | implemented. (If the time between a user loading a page and the
         | result of a programmatic auction is too long, ads may not be
         | served)
        
       | RegnisGnaw wrote:
       | I question the methodology of this: Enders used a browser that
       | mimicked an iPhone 6 and accessed a total of eight "popular" news
       | sites (though they didn't confirm what these were)."
       | 
       | 'iPhone 6', an phone that's 10 years old. A sample size of 8 and
       | undisclosed.
        
         | malfist wrote:
         | Article is 8 years old, so a 10 year old phone makes sense
        
           | RegnisGnaw wrote:
           | Sample size, undisclosed, of 8 websites?
        
       | didgetmaster wrote:
       | It's not just ads. It's websites like nextpit that make you
       | navigate through pop-ups and links just to get some basic info.
        
       | quantumquetzal wrote:
       | Aren't browser-extension ad blockers (uBlock Origin, AdBlock,
       | etc.) not helpful for solving this problem? As far as I'm aware,
       | by the time the ad can be blocked by such programs, you have
       | already consumed the data.
       | 
       | Wouldn't a better solution be DNS sinkholing, like PiHole or
       | AdGuard Home?
        
         | ndriscoll wrote:
         | Ad blockers intercept the request and cancel it before it's
         | actually made. It's wise to use both methods.
        
       | GuestFAUniverse wrote:
       | (Video portals aside) The text you want to read: a few kilobytes.
       | The (oeconomical, an economical) cost of the ads surrounding it:
       | several dozen to a hundred megabytes. You cannot convince me that
       | this _isn't_ unsustainable quackery that got out of hands really,
       | really bad.
        
         | jiveturkey wrote:
         | html email was the start of a slippery slope. i remember
         | complaining about data consumption of non-text email BITD. that
         | was when the state of the art for email servers was to dedup
         | list email so that the server would save only one copy and just
         | reference it for all recipients.
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | > The (oeconomical, an economical)
         | 
         | "oeconomical" is just an extremely archaic spelling of
         | "economical", since the root word from Greek is "oikos", which
         | Latinizes as "oecus".
         | 
         | Why did you mention it? Do you see it as a separate word?
        
         | hsbauauvhabzb wrote:
         | Unsustainable for who? The websites use CDNs for dirt cheap
         | bandwidth, mobile providers love that 20gb doesn't go as far as
         | it used to. It inevitably creates a synergy, between stuff like
         | news websites and local telcos, and YouTube love it too. hell,
         | it's not like all bandwidth cost the same, especially when
         | major orgs will cache + colocate or peer to your isps.
         | 
         | If you're a consumer you might be right, but your opinions and
         | feelings aren't of importance to those in power.
        
           | schiffern wrote:
           | >Unsustainable for who?
           | 
           | People who live on Earth?
           | 
           | Bandwidth is never free from environmental impact, and given
           | the same server/CDN/whatever the environmental impact will
           | increase monotonously with increasing bandwidth use.
           | 
           | Besides the FBI recommending it for security, running a good
           | adblocker is one of the most "green" ways to reduce your
           | footprint from internet usage.
           | 
           | Regardless of how efficient the CDN, it still has a lower
           | footprint to not connect to it at all.                 >hell,
           | it's not like all bandwidth cost the same
           | 
           | I don't see where anybody says that, nor where that claim
           | would be necessary to support the thesis.
        
             | tokioyoyo wrote:
             | I've been long enough on HN to hear this argument since
             | early 2010s, yet the market keeps proving everyone
             | (including me!) wrong. Nobody cares if your website loads
             | 20kb of text with a side of 1mb of ads. Most people are
             | just swiping through megabytes of videos on TikTok and IG
             | anyways.
        
       | wiseowise wrote:
       | "B-b-but this is necessary, because reasons"
       | 
       | Also add security and privacy costs to this.
        
       | hagbard_c wrote:
       | Ads? Which ads? None on my devices at least. Block the filth
       | already, there is no reason to subject yourself or your family to
       | it. Get a device which is under your own control - nothing made
       | by Apple, get an Android device on which you install something
       | like LineageOS or GrapheneOS or another similar AOSP-derived
       | distribution, do not use unmodified stock Android distributions -
       | and install several layers of content blocking. Use a VPN with an
       | endpoint at your own router on which you have more content
       | blocking, that way you can safely use public WiFi hotspots. I
       | never see advertising and would not accept anything else.
        
         | amanaplanacanal wrote:
         | Even an i-device can use adguard plus and get rid of most of
         | the ads.
        
           | hagbard_c wrote:
           | Most of the ads, except for those which Apple wants you to
           | see, except for those in Apple applications, except for the
           | fact that certain applications can not be changed because
           | Apple controls which applications the device will use for
           | given purposes, etcetera. Apple products remain under Apple
           | control whether you like it or not unless they are
           | 'jailbroken'. No, if you want as much control as possible
           | Apple is not your friend.
        
       | comprev wrote:
       | Needs (2016)
        
       | mikae1 wrote:
       | GrapheneOS, Firefox/Mull and uBlock Origin. Nope. :)
        
         | tomsmeding wrote:
         | GrapheneOS unnecessary. Plain Android with Firefox and uBlock
         | Origin suffices.
        
       | nox101 wrote:
       | ads aren't chewing though my mobile data. I generally don't go to
       | any sites with ads. The few times I open a link and it's covered
       | in ads I close the link.
        
         | staplar wrote:
         | I'm going to take a wild guess that most of the world ain't
         | you?
        
           | recursive wrote:
           | Trivially true for all individuals. But also, anyone can use
           | this solution.
        
         | Taylor_OD wrote:
         | You might not be seeing visible ads but you're going to plenty
         | of sites that are using tons of tracking pixels and making a
         | lot of requests with and about various data you are providing.
         | That might not be as data intensive as auto playing a video ad
         | but it certainly makes a big impact overall.
        
           | hombre_fatal wrote:
           | Dunno, I have a 15gb/month through Mint and just use 1Blocker
           | on iOS. I watch Youtube on 5G and use my phone like anyone
           | else yet have data left over. So it doesn't seem like there's
           | a lot of hidden data drain once you have a basic ad blocker.
           | 
           | Overtly consuming rich media from Youtube, Music, and Twitter
           | dwarfs the data consumption of Safari.
           | 
           | Even your example of a tracking pixel is only going to be a
           | handful of bytes.
        
         | carlosjobim wrote:
         | The article was not written specifically about you as an
         | individual. You might be confusing this discussion board with
         | your e-mail inbox?
        
       | theideaofcoffee wrote:
       | I've solved this by mostly not even using most sites on mobile
       | anyway. The vast majority of whatever dreck is served up is
       | purely worthless anyway, social network-powered chum, listicle
       | nonsense, or whatever does load up reflows eleventy times and
       | crashes the tab. This link included. What little is left beyond
       | that is just shallow information that you can mostly get from the
       | original sources (this link included).
        
       | andrefuchs wrote:
       | I'm using DNS66 on Android to block ads at the DNS level. I
       | wouldn't browse on mobile without it.
        
         | blacksmith_tb wrote:
         | Same, with NextDNS. I used to deal with rooting and Magisk to
         | use a hosts file based approach (Adaware) but as Android has
         | become more locked down, DNS blocking has become the much less
         | invasive solution.
        
         | overhead4075 wrote:
         | This and Firefox on Android with uBlock Origin
        
       | ziofill wrote:
       | I love that the mobile version of the brave browser tells you how
       | much data it saved you and how much time too.
        
         | TechDebtDevin wrote:
         | Despite all their crypto bullshit and internal ad networks
         | (which you can ignore/turn off), Brave mobile is great at
         | blocking ads.
         | 
         | For instance ive never paid for YouTube premium to get rid of
         | ads on mobile and allow background audio (yes they charge for
         | background audio). On Brave mobile you can turn on background
         | audio for all media and ive never seen/heard a YouTube ad.
        
           | erinaceousjones wrote:
           | Firefox mobile is great for this too. uBlock + sponsorblock +
           | the fact that FF continues playing media when it's
           | backgrounded make listening to long videos (like publicly
           | recorded university lectures etc) a real breeze, it's a
           | godsend if you like to listen to lectures while on long
           | drives etc
           | 
           | Edit: ironically my post in this thread about how ads are
           | partially enshittifying the internet, reads a bit like a
           | sponsored endorsement for FF :-) ah well. It's still good.
        
         | 0xpgm wrote:
         | I agree, that is a pretty good feature. You start feeling good
         | when the data saved is in the gigabytes and time saved viewing
         | ads is in the hours
        
         | smoovb wrote:
         | I wish Brave had succeeded with their YouTube Premium model of
         | web browsing. Let me pay one single provider to remove all web
         | ads and paywalls, and that provider pays creators. Still a
         | great mobile browser.
        
         | theandrewbailey wrote:
         | Desktop Brave does, too.
        
       | metabagel wrote:
       | A lot of web pages only work for me on my iPhone if I use reader
       | mode. Otherwise, the page keeps resetting over and over again.
       | Firefox, but I assume Safari is probably the same, since Apple
       | mandates they all be based on WebKit.
        
         | forgotacc240419 wrote:
         | Same for me with Firefox, every video and ad coated site
         | basically. iPhone 12 Mini
         | 
         | Tbh it's probably been a net positive, I just instantly bail
         | after the first refresh
        
         | Bancakes wrote:
         | You can try adguard on iOS. It's an app that you buy as an
         | extension for safari but the block lists are very good and you
         | can enable DoH systemwide as well.
        
           | samtheprogram wrote:
           | I was trying to figure out why this doesn't happen to me, and
           | it's probably AdGuard. Highly recommended.
        
           | encom wrote:
           | As someone who switched from Iphone to Android, Adguard is
           | very poor compared to uBlock, and it was in fact one major
           | reason (of several) why I switched. But now that Google is
           | killing adblockers, I might just stop browsing the internet
           | entirely.
        
             | bcraven wrote:
             | Firefox on Android supports extensions so I have uBlock
             | running.
        
             | nine_k wrote:
             | Firefox on Android does work and does run uBlock Origin all
             | right.
             | 
             | I only start Chrome if some very stubborn (usually
             | financial) site fails to work with Firefox + ad blocking;
             | this happens maybe 3-4 times a year.
        
               | encom wrote:
               | But how long is manifest v2 going to survive on Firefox?
        
               | Vinnl wrote:
               | Firefox's v3 implementation still supports the necessary
               | APIs, and there's a public commitment to keep them.
        
               | kivle wrote:
               | Hopefully Firefox will keep support for manifest 2 for
               | the foreseeable future since they also have their own
               | extension "store". In Chromes extension store new
               | downloads of Ublock Origin have already been disabled and
               | existing installations are slowly being disabled as they
               | roll out the changes. I'm still on Vivaldi, but will be
               | switching to Firefox very soon.
        
               | encom wrote:
               | What's the last Chrome release that's going to support
               | it? I'm going to pin that version for as long as
               | possible.
        
             | nosioptar wrote:
             | I tried to switch from android to ios earlier this year.
             | The browsing experience was so awful that I didn't make it
             | a day due to the lack of ublock.
        
             | grues-dinner wrote:
             | The fact that Firefox has had a near-perfect ad blocker for
             | years and years, and the internet has only got less usable
             | without an ad blocker and it's still struggling to break 1%
             | on mobile is just so strange to me. It should be marketing
             | open goal. Especially as the biggest competition has a
             | conflict of interest that prevents them ever doing ad block
             | well, so they can't lose out to a pivot by Chrome.
        
           | Mistletoe wrote:
           | To anyone reading this, the free version works well also.
        
         | hiimshort wrote:
         | The same is true for me on Safari. I've tried with and without
         | AdGuard and the experience on plenty of sites that I just want
         | to get a quick tidbit from is awfully painful.
        
           | cluckindan wrote:
           | Those sites and their 2974 partners only want to serve your
           | best interests by providing those quick tidbits.
        
         | croes wrote:
         | >since Apple mandates they all be based on WebKit.
         | 
         | Unless you're a EU citizen
        
           | Cumpiler69 wrote:
           | Based EU
        
           | gibspaulding wrote:
           | I haven't seen anything about this in a while. Do EU builds
           | of Firefox actually exist yet? (Running on gecko)
        
             | eptcyka wrote:
             | Nothing is published yet. Whatever gecko build might be
             | there might be whithering away on the vine, I don't believe
             | Mozilla cares for supporting it just for the EU.
        
         | nytesky wrote:
         | What web pages are you seeking out? I feel like I read hacker
         | news, the New York Times and some local Reddit channels more or
         | less. Search is so squirrelly and the passion GeoCities pages
         | or Uni home pages are long gone, and blogs are corrupted by
         | insidious sponsor endorsements, let alone ads?
        
           | dingnuts wrote:
           | What do you mean? Reddit and Hacker News are link aggregators
           | -- aren't you clicking the links? or are you only reading the
           | comments?
           | 
           | There's a long tail of random websites linked to by sites
           | like this one -- like the one in the OP!
        
             | nytesky wrote:
             | Haha, true. But I think ad heavy pages are not promoted on
             | HN at least.
             | 
             | And yeah, I do come for the comments.
        
           | mahirsaid wrote:
           | I would prefer you to put hacker news in another category
           | this site has quality information and comments unlike many
           | other sites. This site also is not riddled with ads, which is
           | a plus for all of us here. What makes you see that any other
           | way?
        
         | adriancr wrote:
         | sucks to not have ublock origin.
        
           | hombre_fatal wrote:
           | I suppose, but Safari/Webkit shows that you can get what
           | feels like 95% of the way there with static block lists which
           | are ideal when they are sufficient.
           | 
           | They're faster and they're trustless. The only attack surface
           | of a block list is that someone removes their site from the
           | list.
        
             | adriancr wrote:
             | you wouldnt have auto playing videos with ublock origin.
             | 95% might be nice but theres a lot missing.
             | 
             | The static blocklists can be defeated easily by having ads
             | served by the same domain.
             | 
             | In that case you are stuck due to apple's decisions.
        
           | freehorse wrote:
           | Orion browser in iOS (by Kagi) supports ublock origin.
           | 
           | This is the main reason it has become my default browser
           | there.
        
         | bluedino wrote:
         | Safari has been garbage in recent years on the iPhone.
         | 
         | Pages are often unresponsive or don't fully load. Zooming
         | breaks so many sites. I'm always closing Safari and re-loading
         | pages.
         | 
         | Are the web developers ignoring Safari? They can't be.
        
           | Mistletoe wrote:
           | iOS 18 really screwed up my phone. Never had this issue with
           | safari before then.
        
       | vrc wrote:
       | This is the #1 reason for ad blocking in Eastern Europe and Asia
       | (eg dolphin browser). It's also why the current "solutions" big
       | tech is providing viz. privacy and non-annoying ads doesn't move
       | the needle there.
        
       | nonrandomstring wrote:
       | This reminds me of the very first prosecution against "Hackers"
       | according to the lore of Bruce Stirling [0].
       | 
       | Since there were no cyber-laws to charge trespassers on digital
       | estate the intruders were charged with "stealing electricity".
       | 
       | Perhaps we forget that ads are also a crime of resource
       | misappropriation. Advertisers are not like vampires that are off
       | the hook if you invite them in.
       | 
       | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hacker_Crackdown
        
       | freitasm wrote:
       | I think ads on mobile apps is a much bigger problem for these
       | users.
        
       | RiverCrochet wrote:
       | "Don't worry. Now that net neutrality is certainly no longer a
       | thing, arrangements can be made for adtech companies to pay ISPs
       | directly to zero-rate their traffic. You won't benefit from this
       | with any less ads or tracking, but your Internet bill may
       | increase slightly less over time, at least until it's as high as
       | your cable bill used to be."
       | 
       | Ridiculous thoughts from my grandmother. I disagree. People still
       | watch TV even though there are ad breaks, ads on top of the show
       | you are watching, and product placement within the TV shows.
       | People clearly want ads otherwise they would use alternate means
       | to get the information, such as DVDs, books, libraries, non-
       | online classes, or seminars. If mobile data pricing goes up and
       | the cost of ads to the end user is too high, the free market can
       | sort it out. Honestly it's hard for me not to believe that
       | blocking ads is anti-capitalist and against the free speech
       | rights of advertising companies.
        
         | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
         | Good one!
        
       | __rito__ wrote:
       | I just turn on Ultimate Data Saving mode, and then I add some
       | apps to the exception list. I always also have Power Saving mode
       | on, and that restricts background data usage significantly.
        
       | staplar wrote:
       | Ads are ok if they're fixated on a page and aren't intrusive but
       | holy crap, some sites just takes to other sites when you click
       | something and then when you come back it's not the same page so
       | you got to go back again and the cycle resets. I can't imagine
       | places where internet is super expensive and you deal with daily
        
       | stalfosknight wrote:
       | Some people still don't have unlimited data?
        
         | foobarchu wrote:
         | Correct. And scoffing at them won't change anything.
         | 
         | Even if they didn't, the amount of data ads use massively slows
         | down the experience of using the internet, especially when
         | outside of a tower-dense area.
        
       | corysama wrote:
       | AFAIK, a lot of mobile ad blockers work by proxying your traffic
       | through their servers.
       | 
       | There may be more, but the only one I know works totally local is
       | Firefox Focus.
       | 
       | You can install it, set it as the ad blocker for iOS Safari and
       | never actually use it as a browser.
       | 
       | It's not 100.0% effective. But, it makes a big difference with
       | minimal hassle.
        
         | david_allison wrote:
         | uBlock Origin is supported by Firefox on Android:
         | https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/android/addon/ublock-origin...
        
         | ghostly_s wrote:
         | > AFAIK, a lot of mobile ad blockers work by proxying your
         | traffic through their servers.
         | 
         | I don't know what your basis is for this claim. Mobile Safari
         | had an API for content filter lists, and every ad blocker I've
         | tried required me to enable several of these filters through
         | the system settings. I don't think there's any way an iOS
         | extension even could configure a proxy without user
         | confirmation.
        
         | redwall_hp wrote:
         | iOS ad blockers primarily work through the content blocker API,
         | since several years ago. An app gives Safari a blocklist (which
         | it's responsible for updating) and Safari applies that to any
         | URIs it's asked to load.
         | 
         | I've been using Wipr for a few years now. It's basically set
         | and forget.
        
         | CubsFan1060 wrote:
         | 1Blocker works quite well as well.
        
         | the_snooze wrote:
         | My solution is a PiHole instance at home, combined with a split
         | tunnel WireGuard connection to route my phone's DNS queries
         | through it while I'm on the go. It's completely app- and
         | platform-agnostic.
        
           | dc3k wrote:
           | i've been doing the same for a few years now. wireguard's "on
           | demand" feature is perfect for this. the odd time i'll have
           | to shut it off to get through a captive wifi portal, but
           | otherwise it (along with browser ad blockers) has made mobile
           | browsing significantly less terrible
        
       | modeless wrote:
       | Be sure to read my follow up article, "How ads are funding the
       | services you request the other half of your mobile data from, so
       | you can use them without paying except with some mobile data and
       | some pixels on your screen."
        
         | potsandpans wrote:
         | I think I'll pass.
        
         | techsupporter wrote:
         | Does it have an in-frame modal that pops up immediately after
         | page load to beg me for my email address?
         | 
         | What about an embedded video window that covers the bottom
         | 2/3rds of the content and follows with scroll?
         | 
         | Oh and I hope you've not left out the absolutely mandatory
         | "Read More" button that spawns a user interaction and auto-
         | plays everything on the page.
         | 
         | Those are all of my favourite things on the web and I really
         | enjoy seeing them all over the place!!
        
           | jl6 wrote:
           | Popups onmouseout, recaptcha handwritten
           | 
           | Newsletter signup, location permission
           | 
           | Video covering every thing
           | 
           | These are my favorite adtech offsprings
        
           | modeless wrote:
           | I hate intrusive ads as much as the next guy, but denying
           | that ads have benefits and people overwhelmingly choose ad-
           | supported services over paid ones is simply sticking your
           | head in the sand.
        
             | ndriscoll wrote:
             | Saying people overwhelmingly choose ads is conceptualizing
             | things wrong. Take this blog: it just copied a BI snippet
             | about a study some other party did. No one even linked to
             | the original study.
             | 
             | People correctly value this at $0. This post is noise, and
             | things like it just make web crawling/search harder to
             | scale.
        
         | thfuran wrote:
         | Paying with money is better.
        
           | modeless wrote:
           | People's revealed preferences are very clear, however much
           | they deny it.
        
             | kergonath wrote:
             | "People" are actually more than one entity and can have
             | different opinions about things.
        
               | modeless wrote:
               | Sure, and the vast majority choose ad-supported services
               | over paid ones. Even many of the ones who claim to want
               | to pay don't actually put their money where their mouth
               | is when given the chance.
        
             | 1propionyl wrote:
             | Revealed preferences are not reliable in situations where
             | individuals make choices based on factors other than their
             | true preferences, such as... limited information, social
             | pressure, financial pressure (!!), impulsive behavior,
             | addiction, lack of technical knowledge to pursue
             | alternatives (!!), or when their preferences change
             | significantly over time or moment to moment.
             | 
             | Recourse to "people have revealed their preferences" is the
             | last refuge of the defenders of the status quo of deeply
             | corrupted "markets".
        
         | gotoeleven wrote:
         | I would love to have a way to pay for most websites but
         | experience shows that the genius MBAs get your subscription fee
         | and then start tacking on ads and tracking anyway. So fuck
         | them. ad blockers, proxies, pihole, vpns, whatever you have to
         | do.
        
           | modeless wrote:
           | Google gave people that but ~nobody used it (it was called
           | Google Contributor). Many similar stories over the years.
           | People overwhelmingly choose ad-supported services over paid
           | ones. Even when "MBAs" don't add extra ads on top or whatever
           | other objection you have, it's all been tried before and
           | failed every time.
        
         | ndriscoll wrote:
         | Those sites should consider sending surreptitious crypto miners
         | instead, which would be more ethical. Then they'd only be using
         | energy instead of using energy and bandwidth and also spying on
         | and manipulating people.
         | 
         | Users should of course block all malware.
         | 
         | The other obvious thing to consider is that if you're going to
         | write an article to convince people of your opinion, I'm not
         | going to pay you for that. You're the one trying to influence
         | me!
        
       | jcoletti wrote:
       | Wipr has been pretty reliable for me on iOS. I know digital
       | advertising has helped support many web innovations but it's just
       | getting brutal out there.
        
       | apples_oranges wrote:
       | Install Brave browser. You probably won't go back if you try it.
        
       | pier25 wrote:
       | It's immoral that you cannot turn off videos in a browser and/or
       | that this isn't the default option on phones.
        
         | drukenemo wrote:
         | I use Stopthemadness to stop video autoplay
        
           | musicale wrote:
           | The fact that we need a "stop the madness" app for Safari is
           | proof of Safari's insanity.
           | 
           | If Stopthemadness actually works reliably, it is also an
           | existence proof that blocking video autoplay is possible, and
           | that Apple is simply not fixing the "never auto-play" setting
           | in Safari.
           | 
           | Perhaps Apple and Mozilla should just remove the "never auto-
           | play" settings in Safari and Firefox and say that they are
           | doing so in order to empower web sites and adtech companies
           | (including Google/youtube, who pays them a lot of money) to
           | force you to view unwanted video advertisements.
        
         | musicale wrote:
         | I agree. It's insanely user-hostile that the "never auto-play"
         | setting in Safari (for example) doesn't work and hasn't worked
         | for years. To be honest, I have no recollection of it ever
         | working reliably.
         | 
         | Although it is an arms race and obnoxious web pages can have
         | javascript/webassembly video players that render into a canvas,
         | etc., I still blame Apple for not sorting this out, and even
         | backtracking on click/tap-to-play.
         | 
         | IIRC, at some point Apple did roll out default click/tap-to-
         | play on iPhones, and there was a huge outcry from web
         | developers (probably including Google/youtube) that it broke
         | their sites. I expect the real complaint was that it interfered
         | with pushing unwanted video advertisements.
        
         | carlosjobim wrote:
         | You can do that easily on iOS.
        
         | catlikesshrimp wrote:
         | You probably mean "iphones" Android firefox does have an option
         | to turn off autoplay (video and sound)
         | 
         | It can't be set as default because most people are used to spam
         | ads. Heck, most people seek them on tictok
        
         | readthenotes1 wrote:
         | It's easy enough in some browsers
        
         | agilob wrote:
         | > cannot turn off videos in a browser
         | 
         | But ublock, VPN and DNS blockers are available on mobile
        
       | aschla wrote:
       | A solution:
       | 
       | AdGuardHome and WireGuard running at home. WireGuard connects on-
       | demand when I leave home.
       | 
       | I choose to run it at home because there are cases where services
       | and/or sites block datacenter IPs, and I have complete control
       | over what and how I block, no proxying through any blocking
       | service.
        
         | pavel_lishin wrote:
         | A solution for you and some other tech savvy individuals; not a
         | great solution for the rest of my family. Plus, it ignores the
         | systemic problem in exchange for personal one-off bandaids.
        
           | aschla wrote:
           | A one-off solution like this is really the only type of
           | solution we have in the face of a massive ad tech industry
           | that largely piggybacks on top of, and inserts itself into,
           | foundational network and web protocols.
           | 
           | Fixing the problem itself would likely require legislation
           | and regulation to get ad tech companies (or the companies
           | that use the ad tech) to pay attention to the data use.
        
             | pavel_lishin wrote:
             | So, there are two solutions - one-off bandaids, and
             | legislation.
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | Many homes can run whole their route.
           | 
           | Im curious how much time or money you'd be willing to invest
           | and spend monthly to have this solved simply?
        
             | pavel_lishin wrote:
             | Homes, sure - what about mobile devices? What about the
             | rest of my family who's not at home? What about the
             | sysadmin work I'll have to put in to support this?
        
         | sadeshmukh wrote:
         | How do you set this up? I have no experience but would like to
         | do something similar.
        
           | aschla wrote:
           | You can either set each up yourself, or there are a variety
           | of containers available. A chatbot of your choice can likely
           | guide you through it, since it'll depend on your specific
           | network setup and how exactly you'd like it configured.
           | 
           | AdGuardHome is fairly straightforward:
           | https://github.com/AdguardTeam/AdGuardHome?tab=readme-ov-
           | fil...
           | 
           | And here is a nice script to install wireguard:
           | https://github.com/angristan/wireguard-install
           | 
           | And you'll likely need to forward the WireGuard port.
        
       | linsomniac wrote:
       | Only half? The number of pages I load that have a video playing
       | in them would make me think it's way, way higher than that.
        
       | znpy wrote:
       | I assume the worst offender in this is youtube. It's awful
       | because ads ALWAYS load immediately, but the actual media i want
       | to watch always lags or is buffering.
       | 
       | When i'm on mobile data advertisements are always super clear and
       | in super high resolution, but i often get pushed low-res versions
       | of the media.
       | 
       | I really hope some better company comes and dismantles YouTube as
       | a business.
       | 
       | Edit: i'm using plain YouTube on plain iOS, so it's all on
       | google/YouTube.
        
       | everdrive wrote:
       | Honestly, just stop using your phone most of the time. You can
       | try to keep up with the adblocking arms race, but it is
       | ultimately a losing battle. It's not actually difficult (in
       | principle) to avoid mobile ads: don't use your phone in the first
       | place, don't browse to web pages, and don't install apps. For
       | anyone who says "but what if I'm out and I need to?" -- that's a
       | fine exception if you're not actually using your phone the other
       | 99% of the time.
        
         | blueboo wrote:
         | Considering we have 25 years of adtech and we presently have
         | multiple effective solutions for adblocking on mobile and
         | desktop, I'd need some additional evidence to be sure that is
         | "ultimately a losing battle".
        
           | everdrive wrote:
           | So I consider myself to be pretty aggressive compared to the
           | normal user when it comes to adblocking. I use Pihole,
           | pfsense (just some blocking IP lists), ublock origin + custom
           | filters & lists, noscript, and also just have a firm
           | household policy about unavoidable ads. (companies have a "1
           | strike you're out" policy in my household for anything
           | egregious. Spotify earned a lifetime ban probably over a
           | decade ago. It's likely the original offense has not been
           | relevant for years, but I don't care. They're out of the
           | running permanently.)
           | 
           | That said, there's a lot of time and energy keeping up with
           | what works, and what does not in the ecosystem. From the
           | pfsense (ie, IP blocking) side of things I'm wholly dependent
           | on filter list authors -- and of course IP blocking ads is
           | marginally effective at best. From the pihole side of things,
           | you have similar problems: dependency on domain lists, and
           | the ever-looming threat of server-side ads. The only reason
           | pihole (or any DNS-based blocking in general) is not wholly
           | useless is because it represents a minority of users. If the
           | technique were even marginally popular, the industry would
           | move on and render it almost totally useless. uBlock origin
           | suffers similar problems, and of course Google has moved to
           | neuter it via Manifest v3. They are also in something of a
           | tug of way with Youtube, and I get the sense that if they
           | really wanted to, they could easily circumvent the plugin. As
           | could any other website. I'm not really worried about losing
           | Youtube, mind you, but it feels pretty clearly that the door
           | is closing on the ad-free internet. And worse, the time when
           | the users on the internet had more power than corporations is
           | dying with it.
        
             | hombre_fatal wrote:
             | Well, I couldn't even tell you off the top of my head where
             | I see ads these days on mobile outside of the odd news site
             | that takes up <1% of my browsing.
             | 
             | So I can't relate to this battle you paint that's so dire
             | that we should stop using our phones.
        
         | bmicraft wrote:
         | > You can try to keep up with the adblocking arms race, but it
         | is ultimately a losing battle
         | 
         | I've never felt that way with uBlock in Firefox for Android.
         | Installed it years ago and don't even need to give it a second
         | thought.
        
       | ausaus wrote:
       | On Android I use Firefox with uBlock Origin and adguard DNS as a
       | private DNS.
        
       | kivle wrote:
       | Worst example I've seen is an app called Foodora here in Norway
       | (like Uber Eats, Door Dash, etc). On the order confirmation page
       | where you're following your order status, following the driver on
       | the map, etc, they would have video ads playing _uncached_. It
       | was literally using like 1 MB/s of traffic continuously while you
       | were checking the order page.
        
       | crazygringo wrote:
       | Surprising they don't mention what I imagine has to be the
       | obvious culprit: video ads.
       | 
       | It's not even about advertising for me -- static ads don't bother
       | me that much. But whenever there's autoplaying video in the
       | corner of a page, I hate it so much. Whether it's an ad, or a
       | news site that inexplicably thinks I want to multitask and watch
       | their news channel at the same time I read their article. It's
       | genuinely hard to read the article when there's constant motion
       | an inch or two away at all times!
        
         | catlikesshrimp wrote:
         | Firefox has an option to turn autoplay (sound and video) off
         | for those ads that get past ublock origin.
        
           | schiffern wrote:
           | uBlock Origin can also block media elements larger than X MB
           | (I use 8 MB so it still loads large images), preventing the
           | video from loading in the first place. Disabling autoplay
           | prevents it from playing, but the video is still downloaded.
        
           | pornel wrote:
           | Ads work around lack of autoplay by loading massive image
           | filmstrips containing video frames (often split across
           | hundreds of image files), and animating that in JS or CSS.
           | This has all the annoyance of autoplay, with even worse
           | bandwidth and memory usage.
        
         | alden5 wrote:
         | That's your monkey brain hard at work making sure you notice
         | movement that could mean danger in your peripheral vision,
         | funny how much technology is built off of manipulating primal
         | parts of our brains
        
       | ngcazz wrote:
       | If we're losing net neutrality then ad traffic should be entirely
       | financed by ISPs
        
       | syntaxing wrote:
       | Paying $20 a year for NextDNS is easily my top value purchase.
       | Makes browsing on iOS a sane experience.
        
       | nytesky wrote:
       | Let's take the moment to hat tip Hacker News for no ads!
        
       | imoreno wrote:
       | Maybe the ISP should start charging the ad network instead of the
       | user for ad traffic. Then they can start blocking the ads of
       | people who don't pay.
       | 
       | The user, who pays for the service, is getting no value out of
       | the ads and the advertiser is freeloading the ISP's technical
       | infrastructure and userbase.
        
         | Workaccount2 wrote:
         | The internet as you know it is the value you get out of ads.
         | 
         | You may hate ads, we all do, but at least recognize the hand
         | that feeds you. The alternative is subscriptions for
         | everything, and as far as I can tell that is far less popular
         | than the ad model we have.
        
           | rlpb wrote:
           | > The internet as you know it is the value you get out of
           | ads.
           | 
           | I disagree. The value I get from the Internet is almost
           | entirely from non-ad-driven sources. The ad-driven stuff is
           | very low value to me.
        
             | Uehreka wrote:
             | If the most of the websites you visit aren't ad supported,
             | then this article likely doesn't apply to you. It does
             | apply to most people however.
        
             | deadmutex wrote:
             | Sure, and someone else can say otherwise. Comparing
             | anecdotes doesn't provide a global view, IMO, and can lead
             | to incorrect conclusions.
             | 
             | Maybe better to look at data instead, e.g. Netflix ad-
             | supported plans vs ad-free plans, or YouTube Premium vs YT
             | ad-supported, etc.
        
             | bdangubic wrote:
             | you never used google search? if not you should check it
             | out - it is not bad - https://www.google.com
        
               | xigoi wrote:
               | I prefer Kagi, which does not have ads.
        
               | lukan wrote:
               | Or chrome, or gmail, or firefox, or ... sadly most of the
               | internet is financed by ads. Only some parts remain free
               | of them. Wikipedia for example. And even HN here ... you
               | can argue it is payed for by the occasional ads, or
               | rather all of it is an ad for the VC ycombinator.
        
               | JoshuaRogers wrote:
               | Even Wikipedia feels like each page has a prominent "Plea
               | from Jimmy Wales" ad at the top of every page (even after
               | donating), even if it isn't billed as such.
        
             | renewiltord wrote:
             | Then you aren't visiting ads-loaded sites and they aren't
             | using your data. Seems fine.
        
             | sethops1 wrote:
             | Ironic you're posting this on Hacker News, which is
             | fundamentally an ad for YCombinator.
        
               | mahirsaid wrote:
               | Are you not benefiting from this site. I come here to
               | read things and shelter with like minded peoples. I don't
               | see ads.
        
               | nickff wrote:
               | Many of the YCombinator companies advertise jobs on this
               | forum, and some also post 'demos', which are often
               | advertising to potential investors, clients, and
               | partners.
        
           | HWR_14 wrote:
           | They could serve non-targeted text ads. Those are very cheap
           | to deliver and seem to work fine.
        
             | freehorse wrote:
             | If the ads were just text-based and related to the content
             | I visit at the time rather than "me" I would have much less
             | hate towards them.
             | 
             | If I visit a webpage about CPUs I am probably interested in
             | CPUs, maybe I am building a PC, send me ads about that
             | which I may actually find useful. Why would you send me
             | irrelevant ads about gardening just because I am into that
             | also? If I am looking to buy a CPU I am not gonna click on
             | something irrelevant like that.
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | Speak for yourself. Some of us were on the internet before
           | the ads.
        
           | lolinder wrote:
           | The valuable parts of the internet are, with few exceptions,
           | ad-free. Forums like HN, personal blogs and sites, paid
           | services--these are the places where real value is to be
           | found on the internet.
           | 
           | The ad-funded content and services are almost universally low
           | quality and designed exclusively to hack brains to keep them
           | scrolling, not provide real value. What few exceptions there
           | are to this rule are not worth the enormous drain on society
           | that the ad-funded model has been.
           | 
           | > and as far as I can tell that is far less popular than the
           | ad model we have.
           | 
           | This is a classic market failure. Corporations have figured
           | out how to manipulate people into pursuing the corporation's
           | interest (scroll indefinitely through pages and pages of ads
           | and spend money on the things so advertised) at the expense
           | of the consumer's interest (do anything else with their time
           | and money). Popularity is irrelevant when it's clearly
           | achieved by exploitative design, not value delivered.
        
             | dgrin91 wrote:
             | Is this really true? Virtually all news sites, regardless
             | what side you agree with, have ads. Basically all
             | entertainment has ads (or subscriptions). Productivity
             | stuff is either full of sales or upsells, aka ads, or
             | alternatively sell your data (for future ads).
             | 
             | Those are all valuable things. The ad free ones are the
             | exceptions. More over they only exist ad free because the
             | money comes from elsewhere.
        
               | lolinder wrote:
               | > Virtually all news sites, regardless what side you
               | agree with, have ads.
               | 
               | Virtually all news sites, regardless of what side you
               | agree with, are composed mostly of garbage designed to
               | draw your attention, not inform you about things that
               | really matter. They may provide some value _in addition_
               | to that, but the advertising model ensures that they
               | _must_ hack your attention as their primary goal.
               | 
               | > Basically all entertainment has ads (or subscriptions).
               | 
               | Similarly, our entertainment options were better before
               | they had to be designed to keep you on a specific
               | streaming platform for a certain length of time.
               | 
               | > Productivity stuff is either full of sales or upsells,
               | aka ads, or alternatively sell your data (for future
               | ads).
               | 
               | Depends on who you're buying productivity stuff from. My
               | Fastmail account does just fine with no ads and no data
               | sales, and covers basically everything I need. Most other
               | "productivity" tools I've tried have felt palpably
               | exploitative.
               | 
               | > More over they only exist ad free because the money
               | comes from elsewhere.
               | 
               | Ad-funded products are a civilization-wide trap like
               | credit card rewards. They create an illusion that things
               | are coming for free, but companies don't do this out of
               | charity--they pay for ads because they have good data
               | that strongly suggests that the people who see them will,
               | on average, pay them back and more.
               | 
               | I'd rather make the cost of a service explicit than hide
               | it behind hard-to-quantify behavioral hacks.
        
               | withinboredom wrote:
               | Reminds me of the days when ads were 5 or so minutes
               | long, not just to convince you to buy it, but inform you
               | why you should buy it. It wasn't a dopamine laden 30s
               | that tells you nothing about the product.
        
               | mahirsaid wrote:
               | Fast forward to now where essentially every YT ad is some
               | guy convincing you his trading and market strategy is
               | better than anyone else's.
        
               | eesmith wrote:
               | When was this time?
               | 
               | I listened to "The Shadow" radio episodes from the 1940s,
               | sponsored by "Blue Coal". At 0:45 of
               | https://www.beyondthebreaker.com/the-shadow-of-blue-coal/
               | "All signs point to a severe winter. Be prepared! If you
               | want to be sure of even, dependable, helpful heat in any
               | kind of weather, insist on Blue Coal. America's finest
               | anthracite mined from the fields of northern
               | Pennsylvania. The coal that is colored a harmless blue at
               | the mine for your protection."
               | 
               | That's about 20 seconds, and the blue color was 'a
               | marketing ploy to distinguish its coal from that of its
               | competitors. But the company took it one step further by
               | actually promoting its product as being superior, longer
               | burning, and even more "healthful" than other coal. No
               | wonder the PR "spin" profession was so poorly regarded in
               | that era!'
               | 
               | Also, 1971's "I'd Like to Buy the World a Coke", was 1
               | minute long, and did not inform.
        
               | icehawk wrote:
               | Not really sure how you come to the conclusion those are
               | all valuable things.
        
               | ndriscoll wrote:
               | News (especially national or global) is largely idle
               | entertainment for middle class people, and comes with
               | large servings of propaganda. Subscriptions/commerce are
               | fine. Productivity stuff IME is almost all FOSS or paid
               | for. Ads tend to optimize for the opposite of
               | productivity: engagement.
               | 
               | Existing ad-free because the money comes from somewhere
               | is the point. That somewhere is more ethical and prevents
               | the conflicts of interest that make ad-based services
               | inevitably worth their nominal price.
               | 
               | Some obvious very high value parts of the Internet with
               | no monetization: government services and information,
               | free educational materials from pre-school through
               | graduate university and research level, basically all
               | software I use, creative commons music, art, and CAD
               | designs, forums and blogs where world experts like
               | Terence Tao post, forums and blogs where hobbyists post.
               | 
               | If you look to the Internet for ways to improve your
               | life, you'll find the associated resources (which I'd
               | characterize as the high value parts of the Internet)
               | generally have no ads. It should be obvious why.
        
             | beepbopboopp wrote:
             | My brother in code, Hackernews is a blatant ad for YC, look
             | at title bar. They just decided they could afford the
             | subsidy to run it enough to be the sole supporter.
             | 
             | In general, its easiest to charge the wealthiest group with
             | the greatest motivation to spend and that combination means
             | in almost all cases corporations are better customers than
             | individuals. Hence, advertising replacing subscription.
             | 
             | Additionally this why consumer internet is so hard to
             | standup and SaaS feels so much easier to take from 0 to 1.
        
               | imoreno wrote:
               | The term is "content marketing", and yes, ads are ads but
               | ultimately people trying to release quality content for
               | free to shill their brand is not very high on the list of
               | worst things about advertising, I'm sure you'll agree.
        
           | 5evOX5hTZ9mYa9E wrote:
           | The internet as we know it is a dystopian hellscape. As
           | somebody who has been around long enough to remember the
           | internet before every interaction on it was monetised, all I
           | want is for the ad industry to die.
        
           | AlotOfReading wrote:
           | As far as I can tell, subscriptions aren't a reliable way to
           | opt out of ads and ad tracking. Look at cars, cable, Uber,
           | Spotify, Amazon prime, newspapers, telecoms, ISPs, etc. They
           | all show sponsored content and upsell services to
           | subscribers.
           | 
           | I've tried putting my money where my mouth is by switching to
           | subscription services for everything and I _still_ have to go
           | out of my way to avoid advertising with adblockers.
        
             | drawkward wrote:
             | Advertising is a virus. It infiltrates all ecosystems.
        
               | imoreno wrote:
               | I wonder if advertising really is a waste of time and
               | money for the most part, and it's just that the
               | advertisers are really good at convincing people
               | otherwise.
        
           | freehorse wrote:
           | I do not get this argument at all. We all eventually bear the
           | cost of ads by them adding cost to the products being
           | advertised that we buy. Nothing is free.
        
             | acchow wrote:
             | There's value ad with ads targeting. Otherwise we go back
             | to the Television days when everyone watched the same ads
        
               | freehorse wrote:
               | Value added for whom? And what's wrong with ads depending
               | on the content of a webpage rather than the user as
               | profiled over other webpages?
        
             | lolinder wrote:
             | Not to mention that treating ad-funded as equivalent to
             | free arrogantly assumes that I, personally, am somehow
             | immune to the manipulation inherent in advertising.
             | 
             | Companies pay for ads because they have good reason to
             | believe that some significant percentage of people who see
             | them will buy something _that they otherwise would not have
             | bought_. They spend enormous sums setting up the
             | infrastructure to attribute sales to specific ads.
             | Meanwhile we, the consumers, have no really good way to
             | quantify how much drains from our bank accounts each year
             | due to the ads we see.
             | 
             | Might I be the exception to the rule and be un-
             | manipulatable? Possibly. But I don't have a strong reason
             | to bet on it, and I'd rather see the price of the service
             | listed outright as a subscription than simply hope that the
             | ad-funded version will net to a lower cost for me.
        
           | inglor_cz wrote:
           | I have zero ads on my blog and instead I ask my readers to
           | buy my books on my e-shop.
           | 
           | Works well, last year I sold 5000 books this way.
        
           | karaterobot wrote:
           | You've got to say more about what you mean by that,
           | especially how you know what everyone else finds valuable on
           | the internet.
        
           | icehawk wrote:
           | The internet as I know it is the value I get out of
           | interacting with other people.
           | 
           | I've never had a moment where I've said "Oh, I'm glad that ad
           | was there!"
           | 
           | If a service can't be run unless it's through ads?
           | 
           | Then perish.
        
             | nickff wrote:
             | HN exists to advertise yCombinator stuff! You seem to like
             | this forum, yet you wish for it to perish?
        
           | swayvil wrote:
           | There is a feast. You get a crumb. The problem isn't that
           | part of that the internet needs part of that crumb to
           | function. The problem is that you get only a crumb. Let's not
           | pretend otherwise.
        
           | amluto wrote:
           | Even assuming you're right in principle, there's a basic
           | problem here: ads have value (to the advertiser, to the
           | network, to the site showing them, and potentially to the
           | user). And ads have costs paid by the parties other than the
           | user (lots of money changes hands and some compute may be
           | incurred, too), and that's fine, and the parties in control
           | are strongly motivated to control those costs. But there are
           | also costs that are effectively externalities as far as the
           | companies involved are concerned, and those are bandwidth,
           | battery usage, and degradation of the user experience.
           | 
           | So if anyone wants to seriously call the modern ad system a
           | benefit to the user, then those externalities should be
           | controlled. Either the actual bandwidth costs should be
           | accounted as losses to the user, or the advertiser should be
           | forced to pay those costs. And I bet that ads would start
           | using far less bandwidth with no change in appearance if the
           | advertisers started caring.
        
           | kleiba wrote:
           | The way I see it: if your service forces me to watch ads or
           | pay for a subscription, then I have two choices: either I
           | watch the ads (probably not) or pay for the subscription
           | (slightly more likely but it really depends), or I simply
           | don't use your service. For the most part, I have gone with
           | option #2 in the majority of cases so far.
           | 
           | I have no bad conscience whatsoever to use an adblocker.
           | Heck, I get eye cancer every time I have sit in front of
           | somebody's webbrowser who does not have an adblocker
           | installed.
           | 
           | Even though I use the internet quite a bit as we all do, if
           | the free internet were to go away tomorrow, I'd probably find
           | something else to do with my time.
        
           | wao0uuno wrote:
           | The alternative is hobby sites, sites that make money from
           | sales like Steam and paid content. I'm honestly fine with
           | that. Fuck ads. If I could remove all ad and data mining
           | supported content from the web I'd do it without hesitation.
        
           | imoreno wrote:
           | I get what you're saying, but you're disregarding the point
           | of my (admittedly tongue in cheek) proposal. I'm not saying
           | there shouldn't be ads. Currently, the ad industry is
           | subsidized by consumers because they pay for the traffic.
           | Instead, the advertiser should pay, since they get the most
           | of it.
           | 
           | Besides, this argument that without ads content can't exist
           | is bogus. Firstly people have been creating art and knowledge
           | without thought for pay since time immemorial, it's a basic
           | human instinct. Were there ads paying for the paintings in
           | Lascaux? In the early days of the internet there was little
           | money to be made online, and yet the quality of the content
           | was excellent - and yes there were banners and tracking
           | cookies but it's interesting how the best sites had little or
           | none of that, and when they did have ads the quality of the
           | ads was very high too - relevant to the audience and not some
           | worthless crap that is much worse than competitors.
           | 
           | To this day people freely publish quality content with 0
           | monetization, just because they want to. That type of content
           | gets shared on this site daily. Technology has advanced
           | greatly and simply putting a website up is very cheap now,
           | and people have a decent number of hours to put into their
           | hobby.
        
           | southernplaces7 wrote:
           | Bullshit. I guarantee you that if tomorrow, by some
           | regulatory or technological magic, the vast majority of
           | invasive ads were eliminated from online content and
           | platforms, creators of content would still find ways to
           | deliver the goods, simple because the interest would be
           | there. This would happen even if people showed an enormously
           | strong tendency of not paying for subscription offers.
           | 
           | Before ads and ad "partners" became as pervasively parasitic
           | as they are today, there was still plenty of fine content
           | available online, much of it free of charge, and even now,
           | many platforms exist that offer the same, or at least keep
           | their ad systems unobtrusive to users.
           | 
           | Also, as another comment below mentions, even when you do
           | pay, many platforms still bombard you with ad garbage, or
           | create frankly abusive bullshit like paid tiers in which you
           | still can't opt out of ads. Looking at you and many others
           | Netflix.
        
         | SkiFire13 wrote:
         | ISPs are likely happy about it, since it means users will have
         | to spend more.
         | 
         | Ads can also be easily hosted on CDNs, so their cost for ISPs
         | can be decreased significantly compared to other more dynamic
         | content.
        
           | imoreno wrote:
           | But it's a marketing win. Imagine an ISP that blocks most ads
           | automatically, and what it doesn't block is excluded from
           | your data cap. Shut up and take my money!
        
         | Tarball10 wrote:
         | That sets a terrible precedent. You do not want ISPs picking
         | and choosing what content to deliver, or forcing content
         | providers to pay extra to deliver content to their customers.
        
           | agilob wrote:
           | precedent? This is already a common practice. Since early
           | 2010s ISPs were doing it in USA [1] and trying to lower net
           | neutrality standards in Europe to do it [2]. That's how the
           | whole net neutrality debate started in US https://en.wikipedi
           | a.org/wiki/Ajit_Pai#Net_neutrality_in_the...
           | 
           | [1] https://www.nexttv.com/news/netflix-ceo-some-big-isps-
           | extrac...
           | 
           | [2] https://epicenter.works/en/content/data-toll-deutsche-
           | teleko...
        
             | Tarball10 wrote:
             | OP was suggesting an outright block of traffic from ad
             | providers. I don't believe any US ISPs have gone to that
             | extreme, at least not yet. They allowed peering points to
             | become congested which affected Netflix traffic, but
             | weren't blocking it.
        
           | mahirsaid wrote:
           | It will result in a more poor experience online. You want the
           | people providing the service act on their own behalf. Not a
           | more controlling entity to do so. I agree
        
         | bowsamic wrote:
         | Isn't this against net neutrality?
        
           | agilob wrote:
           | https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/02/technology/net-
           | neutrality...
        
             | bowsamic wrote:
             | I'm not American so that's irrelevant to me anyway, I just
             | think it's a moral good
        
         | mannyv wrote:
         | That would be against the whole idea of 'net neutrality.'
         | 
         | Which is why I agree. The user is paying for those ads, and the
         | infrastructure is being upgraded to serve those ads. Why do ads
         | get subsidies?
        
       | papavancato wrote:
       | Got attacked by two ads immediately at opening the page
        
       | dawnerd wrote:
       | Ad people also don't even care about best practices. Many times
       | years ago we'd see multi meg static banner ads. The situation
       | isn't better today, massive gifs are still used in place of
       | video.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | Few things are more soul crushing than having a VP of CTO
         | mandate a bunch of metrics for page size and load time and then
         | to have someone load up all your hard work with trackers,
         | analytics and ads. Like what was the point of us doing all this
         | now the page loads in five seconds so you can be nosey?
        
       | hinkley wrote:
       | iOS Safari has a setting that can use another app to do privacy
       | controls and you can set Firefox Focus to be that app. It's very
       | nice. I got tired of how slow pages were loading on my phone, and
       | got fed up one day and turned it on.
       | 
       | That and ads that resize and push down the content you're about
       | to click on to make you misclick were the final straws.
        
       | maxwellg wrote:
       | I finally took the time this weekend to get the family switched
       | over to using NextDNS. I use uBlock Origin on my laptop but it's
       | nice to have something for mobile too. I've been getting heated
       | when my partner hands me her phone to show me a recipe and it's
       | completely covered in ads.
        
         | ifdefdebug wrote:
         | > but it's nice to have something for mobile too
         | 
         | what's wrong with uBlock Origin on mobile? (available in
         | Firefox)
        
           | ornornor wrote:
           | iOS and ad-blocking in apps that aren't Firefox on android
        
       | zzo38computer wrote:
       | It is not only the data amount but also power. Those who display
       | ads on your computer are stealing these things from you, so they
       | are the thieves. However, it is not only the ads, but also other
       | stuff, such as spyware, inefficient programming, excessive
       | animations and fancy effects, etc.
        
       | gwern wrote:
       | Original is https://www.endersanalysis.com/reports/blocking-free-
       | world-t... but paywalled.
        
       | ornornor wrote:
       | If you have an iPhone, NextDNS is free/very cheap and blocks all
       | ads everywhere (except in the YT app, for this you need to route
       | the YT traffic over to Albania, they get no YT ads there for some
       | reason)
        
       | pvtmert wrote:
       | I think the title needs 2016 since nowadays many ads transitioned
       | from just pictures to even videos. Consisting much more than the
       | text I read...
       | 
       | I would even argue this is a larger issue than the JS bloat
       | websites are having...
        
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