[HN Gopher] Zildjian, a 400-year-old cymbal-making company in Ma...
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Zildjian, a 400-year-old cymbal-making company in Massachusetts
Author : arbesman
Score : 169 points
Date : 2024-12-31 17:12 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wbur.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wbur.org)
| cf100clunk wrote:
| A family dispute led to the founding of Sabian Cymbals in New
| Brunswick, Canada, in 1981. The products of both companies are
| considered amongst the best by percussionists.
| EvanAnderson wrote:
| Came here to say this. The origin of Sabian is a neat story. It
| also makes me thing of the Dassler brothers and Adidas / Puma:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassler_brothers_feud
| twalla wrote:
| I was about to comment this so instead I'll comment that Aldi
| (Trader Joes) and Lidl also arose out of a familial dispute
| over whether or not to sell alcohol.
| jeroen wrote:
| I think you mean Aldi Nord and Aldi Sud, _reportedly_ split
| over a dispute about selling cigarettes. Lidl is not
| related.
| szvsw wrote:
| Don't forget the Russian and Turkish Baths in the east
| village (NYC) - my favorite instance of a familial dispute
| resulting in a business splitting. Now it is two businesses
| occupying the same physical location, but different
| temporal locations: when you get a pass it's only valid for
| certain days of the week depending on which brother's
| business you purchased it for.
| throw0101c wrote:
| > _Sabian is a Canadian cymbal manufacturing company based in
| New Brunswick. It was established in 1981 in the village of
| Meductic, which is now part of Lakeland Ridges, where the
| company is still headquartered. Sabian is considered one of the
| big four manufacturers of cymbals, along with Zildjian, Meinl
| and Paiste.[2]_
|
| * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabian_Cymbals
| lanstein wrote:
| Yup - short for SAlly BIlly ANdy Zildjian
| jasode wrote:
| _> Sabian Cymbals in New Brunswick, Canada, in 1981._
|
| Based on various interviews about the history of Zildjian &
| Sabian brothers splitting up, the Sabian Canada factory was
| _originally a Zildjian 2nd site_ purposely placed outside of
| the USA.
|
| The brothers felt the Zildjian Canada factory solved 2
| problems:
|
| 1) contingency factory that wasn't affected by unionizing labor
| in Boston MA.
|
| 2) easier (cheaper?) export logistics to Europe market from
| Canada. Don't remember the exact details.
|
| Deep link to Robert Zildjian interview talking in "polite
| language" about the union labor unrest as one motivation for
| creating the Canada factory:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv30TRytOk4&t=13m28s
|
| Another interview talked about the Europe market but I can't
| find that video.
|
| That Sabian interview always stuck with me because it isn't
| just the big companies like Amazon, Tesla, Starbucks, etc
| avoiding unionization. It's also the small family companies
| like Zildjian that worked around unions. Another video
| somewhere had the other Zildjian brother (Armand) talk about
| the unions but he wasn't as polite.
|
| EDIT to add another interview from Paul Francis (podcast mp3)
| about Zildjian opening the Canada factory in 1968 in response
| to the Teamsters unionization efforts in the USA. Relevant
| section starts at 45m20s :
| https://www.discussionsinpercussion.com/home/2020/2/5/162-pa...
| Cumpiler69 wrote:
| _> It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that
| worked around unions. _
|
| It's surprising to you that no businesses of any size like
| unions? It's like finding out mice don't like cats regardless
| of size.
| mydriasis wrote:
| Is the implication that the employees of the company are
| the cats and not the mice?
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Well, the _unions_ are the cats. The individual
| employees... not so much.
| bee_rider wrote:
| The employees are the grain I guess.
| fakedang wrote:
| In their defence, the implementation of unions in the US is
| a bastardization of the concept. Just a bunch of fat cats
| making bank at the top while looking out for their own
| interests. Look at the Teamsters or the dockworkers union
| currently for example.
| bluGill wrote:
| There are companies that get along just fine with their
| unions. There are a number of advantages to the company of
| having a good union.
|
| Most unions think their job is to fight management though
| and so are full of anti-management propaganda and so
| workers who are well treated convince themselves they need
| to stick it to the evil management. Thus ensuring
| management and the union cannot get along.
|
| Don't read the above as saying that management is all good.
| Only that unions often needless make things worse.
| kjellsbells wrote:
| > It's also the small family companies like Zildjian that
| worked around unions
|
| Employers dont like instability, period. They want
| continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause
| instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate
| matter.) So...
|
| Of course, unions in the US are an extremely weird beast, and
| for all the good that some of them do, there are or were many
| that simply took the dues and bought nice houses for the
| leadership. When anti-union legislators started poking about
| in the 1970s there were plenty of workers all too happy to
| give the union the middle finger, based on their own
| experiences of being ignored, mistreated, or horrified by the
| local union. (That's not to imply that the legislators had
| workers' interests at heart, of course.)
| poulsbohemian wrote:
| >Employers dont like instability, period. They want
| continuous, headache-free production. Unions can cause
| instability. (Whether it's justified or not is a separate
| matter.) So...
|
| Which is an interesting perspective in its own way, as for
| example when Volkswagen came to the US, they demanded that
| employees unionize as they felt it would allow greater
| stability by having content employees and a single entity
| to negotiate with.
| bboygravity wrote:
| If I'm not mistaking the maffia also had a big part in
| unions?
| skissane wrote:
| > Of course, unions in the US are an extremely weird beast,
| and for all the good that some of them do, there are or
| were many that simply took the dues and bought nice houses
| for the leadership.
|
| It isn't just in the US there are weird beasts. In
| Australia, there is this union called the Shop,
| Distributive and Allied Employees' Association (SDA). They
| are the main union for retail and fast food employees. The
| employers like them because they are rather moderate and
| keen to reach "understandings", plus they will fight hard
| to keep more radical unions off their turf. Employers would
| even encourage their employees to join it. For many years
| they were controlled by socially conservative Roman
| Catholics, who used the union as a political and financial
| base to oppose same-sex marriage, abortion, IVF, etc,
| despite the fact those most of their members (who skew
| younger and the clear majority of whom aren't Catholic)
| didn't share those views and didn't realise their union
| dues were paying for views they probably didn't share. It
| is only in the last decade or so that the tension between
| the leadership and the membership over social issues got to
| the point that the leadership realised they had to move to
| neutrality or risk losing control of the union, so they did
| what they had to do
| jerikmangs wrote:
| What happened with Paul Francis? There must have been some
| sort of shakeup in the company. He was the front person and
| lead cymbal maker for so long --practically his entire life
| -- and all of a sudden he was gone without any official word.
| davexunit wrote:
| I'm a long time fan of Sabian cymbals but good lord their new
| logo is so awful. The old one was way better and it's
| especially bad when compared to Zildjian's iconic logo.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| Fun fact: Sabian avoids the use of the name "Zildjian", even to
| refer to family members. They usually only write "Z". Robert
| Zildjian was routinely referred to as "RZ" and his son Andy as
| AZ.
| zeristor wrote:
| How hard would it be to work out the metallurgy of the cymbals,
| but I think the Zildjian name is so cool, why bother.
| darth_avocado wrote:
| Someone had a similar thought and that's why Soultone exists.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| One would imagine pretty hard, given that the company hasn't
| been overrun by competitors. Not to say it's impossible, but
| generally when something isn't commonplace that is a good sign
| it's hard.
| saghm wrote:
| One of my childhood friends works at Zildjian and has been
| involved in their metallurgy stuff lately (his picture is
| actually in the article!). From what he's alluded to, it
| sounds like they consider their trade secrets around their
| processes to be the main reason for their competitive
| advantage, and they're extremely careful about who they're
| shared with even internally, and the number of people who
| know some of them probably number only in the single digits.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Silver is one of the other major metals in the alloy. Odd that
| this is not mentioned.
| kube-system wrote:
| Not an expert in this field, but I would guess you could use
| spectrometry/spectroscopy tools to tell you what the elemental
| composition is, maybe a SEM to work out the crystallization?
|
| Either way, cloning an established leader isn't always a good
| strategy for success. You might just end up making a name for
| yourself as a cheap clone.
| toss1 wrote:
| Apparently it's not just the mix of metals, but the process.
|
| At college I was acquainted with one of the family and I asked
| him just that question. He said it is actually very difficult
| and some MIT people had gotten closer than others to figuring
| it out (but not very close), and gave up after the
| mixes/processes kept exploding on them.
| facialwipe wrote:
| A (very) mildly interesting tidbit...
|
| I used to do IT for a vendor that injection-molded low durometer
| plastic washers for Zildjian. They placed a single large PO
| annually.
|
| 99% of the population would identify these as 'rubber' washers.
| Nope, they're polyurethane.
| bluGill wrote:
| I'm surprised. Most companies are moving to Just In time. A
| contract to supply for a year, and often secret insight into
| order books so the supplier can work with their supplier when
| they need things. You still need some buffer because
| interruptions will happen, but storing a years worth of use
| means you pay for space to store all that. (it gets worse if
| someone invents a better washer and now your inventory is
| obsolete)
| lysace wrote:
| A version of the full history is here:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company
|
| It's not easy to summarize. I really recommend reading the whole
| thing.
|
| > The company was founded in Constantinople in 1623 by Avedis
| Zildjian, an Armenian metalsmith and alchemist.
|
| ...
|
| > After the death of Avedis, the business, and the secret for
| producing the metal, was handed down to several generations of
| male heirs.
|
| ...
|
| > In 1850, Avedis II built a 25-foot schooner, in order to sail
| cymbals produced in Constantinople to trade exhibitions such as
| the Great Exhibition in London, and to supply musicians in
| Europe.
|
| ...
|
| > Haroutune II's son Avedis III had left Armenia for the United
| States in 1909, and settled in Boston, where he established a
| family and a confectionary business. In 1927, he received a
| letter from his uncle Aram, informing him that he was to become
| heir to the family business, and Aram came to the US.
|
| ...
|
| > Avedis III sought out jazz drummers like Gene Krupa to
| understand their needs.
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| Has anyone synthesized the sound of a Zildjian cymbal from
| scratch?
|
| ie impulse response hit depending on intensity scaled 0 to 1 >
| makes the sound
| szvsw wrote:
| Percussion synthesis is a deep and wonderful practice within
| electronic music, especially techno and especially in its more
| experimental manifestations. I've never encountered anything
| specifically claiming to emulate specific cymbals but I'm sure
| it's out there galore. In any case, cymbal and hihat synthesis
| is a classic task in techno production.
| sctb wrote:
| Cymbals aren't like speakers, microphones, or rooms, whose
| inputs are audio and can therefore be modelled with IR via an
| impulse input. (Well, you can model a cymbal with IR and use it
| as a reverberator, like a speaker.)
|
| AFAIK, what you're talking about would probably fall into the
| category of physical modelling, and there's quite a bit of
| development happening there currently.
| datavirtue wrote:
| Yeah, there is so much more than just hitting these cymbals.
| How and where and how hard. Anyone who strikes one is not
| likely to ever forget the experience and it takes quite a
| while to even scratch the surface of how many different
| sounds can be produced with each model using various
| techniques.
|
| I used to crawl around drum sets when I was a baby as my
| father was a professional musician. I mounted the set as soon
| as I could and it was the only instrument I was was ever
| really interested in. Alas, I was heavily discouraged from
| pursuing music as a child by my mother. She blamed our shit
| life on my father and his obsession with music and he
| basically quit after the divorce and went into
| entrepreneurship (funded by my grandfather's GE stock) to pay
| our child support. I digress.
| phkahler wrote:
| >> She blamed our shit life on my father and his obsession
| with music and he basically quit after the divorce and went
| into entrepreneurship (funded by my grandfather's GE stock)
| to pay our child support.
|
| Sounds like there was some truth in what your mom said?
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| Was child support funded by dividends or stock sales?
| jdietrich wrote:
| Yes, Roland use physical modelling on their flagship V-Drum
| modules, but it's a harder problem than you might think. High-
| quality sensors for electronic drum kits sense not only impact
| velocity, but position - a cymbal will sound radically
| different depending on where you hit it. Every part of a drum
| kit will sympathetically resonate with every other part. It's
| all massively complicated to model and it only has to be
| slightly off to feel wrong to a good drummer. Despite decades
| of serious technical effort, there's still a big gap between
| the real deal and digital, particularly for drummers with a
| delicate style who make use of brushes, rutes or soft mallets.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8bihSwnnyc
| davexunit wrote:
| Yeah, electronic cymbals just don't feel right at all. The
| price to pay for being able to practice somewhat quietly, I
| suppose.
| exprofmaddy wrote:
| Agreed. Drummer and programmer here. I consider electronic
| drums to be a different instrument from acoustic drums---
| especially cymbals---with somewhat comparable musical
| functions. The advantage of e-drums is that the sound guy can
| turn the volume down to zero no matter how hard I'm hitting,
| and that's helpful in places like churches or my apartment.
| The other advantage is that toms (i.e., the tom samples) are
| always perfectly and consistently tuned. Apart from those
| advantages, there's far less traditional drum expressiveness
| in e-drums (for traditional genres like jazz and rock). The
| flip side is: with e-drums I can hit the cymbal and make a
| laser noise.
| brcmthrowaway wrote:
| If we can barely model a drumkit, how can we model a brain
| RajT88 wrote:
| > At the time jazz was exploding, so Avedis III travelled to New
| York City so he could develop new sounds with pioneers, including
| Gene Krupa. "Not only was he a fabulous drummer," Debbie said,
| "he was also very flamboyant in his style." This made Krupa an
| ideal ambassador for Zildjian.
|
| Yeah wow, they have some of the world's absolute best drummers
| using their symbols.
|
| > Lars Ulrich of Metallica
|
| Also some so-so ones.
| jcalabro wrote:
| I grew up in the town next door to Norwell and I play the drums.
| I drove by many times and would have loved to have gone in and
| seen if they might have given a high school student a quick tour
| of the less-secret parts of the factory, but I never did.
|
| There was definitely a strong drumming community in the area;
| there were some fantastic players and teachers around (i.e. Steve
| Smith from Journey was born in Whitman). Not sure if that's
| because of Zildjian, but it was a fun place to grow up and play
| music. It might just be that there are so many strong music
| universities in the area.
| kibwen wrote:
| I'd be interested in the history of the Zildjian trademark, which
| is an iconic masterpiece of design by this point. It looks like
| it was intended to evoke the flowing calligraphy of the older
| Arabic trademark (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedis_Zildjian_Company#/media...
| ), though in truth it looks like a fairly ordinary application of
| Latin Uncial script (the "d" and especially the "a" are a dead
| giveaway).
| fakedang wrote:
| The Turks would be very displeased with you calling it "their
| Arabic trademark".
| neonnoodle wrote:
| The Armenian Zildjians might be displeased to be called
| Turks.
| jimmydddd wrote:
| Yeah, something about 1915 or such.
| mardifoufs wrote:
| The Ottoman Turkish alphabet (which I assume the logo in the
| linked article uses) uses the Arabic script, so the letters
| are the same. I don't think a British person would be
| offended to know that the English alphabet is based on the
| Latin script, even if they aren't Romans themselves.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Every 15yo boy wore a Zildjian shirt in my high school. I still
| strongly associate it with being 15 wannabe. Kinda killed the
| brand for me.
| urronglol wrote:
| Get over yourself
| actionfromafar wrote:
| Still, that school must have been comparatively awesome.
| jameshart wrote:
| While some kids adopt symbols to signal ingroup membership, at
| your school they chose cymbals.
| hombre_fatal wrote:
| Yeah, just a low effort drive by comment of mine driven by
| nostalgia. Was feelin a little mischievous.
| quesera wrote:
| I try to be charitable with 15 year old wannabes.
|
| Because 15 year olds who _don 't_ wannabe something, generally
| don't turn out interesting. And most 15 year olds who already
| have their life figured out are either wrong or boring.
|
| But these are perspectives from a few decades later. At the
| time, I too had strong opinions about people who wore their
| aspirations on (or between) their sleeves. We called them
| poseurs. Because we had more opinions than knowledge. Like 15
| year olds. :)
|
| (Aside: you have to admit though: The Zildjian logotype is
| pretty great. Also, because you'd often get a free t-shirt with
| purchase, it was hard to tell the legit from the poseur without
| getting them to sit at the kit.)
| zem wrote:
| zildjian cymbal cases are popular in the tournament scrabble
| community for carrying round boards, though less so these days
| since foldable boards took over from the rigid ones.
| lc3sim wrote:
| As a drummer, I believe the title of this article is a little
| misleading. Such a title better represent cymbal factories that
| are located in Istanbul that use centuries old manufacturing
| processes.
|
| Although Zildjian is undeniably iconic, the same could be said
| about Bosphorus Cymbals and a few other companies I won't name.
| saghm wrote:
| Has the title changed since you posted this comment? It's not
| clear to me why "a 400-year-old cymbal-making company in
| Massachusetts" would have to imply that the processes are 400
| years old, or that the company was always located in
| Massachusetts, or that there aren't any other old cymbal
| companies elsewhere.
| kasabali wrote:
| Missing context in the comment you replied to is that hand
| made cymbal companies in Istanbul can all be traced back to
| the old Zildjian factory there
|
| Here I found a news story in English summarizing the
| situation [1]:
|
| > The Zildjian company moved to the United States in 1929,
| while Avedis III moved the Zildjian factory to Quincy,
| Massachusetts, and then to its current location in nearby
| Norwell for Zildjian's 350th anniversary.
|
| > ... As one arm of the Zildjian family was building a huge
| brand in the U.S., those who remained in Turkey continued
| making cymbals until 1978, when Mikael Zildjian died.
|
| > Tamdeger said he felt desperate after his master's death.
| Following two years of jewelry business in Kuwait, he re-
| founded the old business with his former colleague, Agop
| Tomurcuk, another Turkish-Armenian.
|
| 1. https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/zildjian-family-
| apprentice...
| Aardwolf wrote:
| Now I really wonder: what did the company and the equipment used
| look like 400 years ago. And what music style were cymbals used
| for 400 years ago?
| bluGill wrote:
| Drums of various sorts have been a constant in music since long
| before recorded history.
| sedatk wrote:
| "Zildjian" is an Armenian last name, but "Zildji" (zilci) means
| "cymbalist"/"cymbal-maker", or more generically, "bell-maker" in
| Turkish. "-ian" is the Armenian patronymic suffix. The whole word
| means something like "Cymbalistson" which makes it the most
| fitting company name to produce cymbals.
| nkurz wrote:
| From the article, the cymbal-making came first, and then the
| name followed:
|
| _The company's proprietary alloy was alchemized 13 generations
| ago in Constantinople (now Istanbul) by Debbie Zildjian's
| ancestor, Avedis I. He was trying to make gold, she said, but
| he ended up concocting a combination of copper and tin. "The
| mixing of those metals produced a very loud, resonant,
| beautiful sound," she said._
|
| _Debbie explained that in 1618 the Ottoman sultan summoned
| Avedis to the Topkapi Palace to make cymbals for elite military
| bands. The metalsmith's work pleased the ruler, who gave him
| permission to found his own business in 1623. The sultan also
| bestowed Avedis the family name "Zildjian" which actually means
| cymbal maker. He went on to craft cymbals that were widely
| used, including in churches and by belly dancers._
| sedatk wrote:
| It makes sense though as "-ian" implies there was a "Zildji"
| before the brand existed. :)
| sdwr wrote:
| Sounds like the word came first, then the cymbals, then the
| word-as-name.
|
| It's not a Crapper situation where cymbals are named after
| this guy
| nimish wrote:
| I wonder if anyone's bothered to assay their alloy to reverse
| engineer it.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| _it ain 't me, it ain't me, I ain't no cymbalistson, no, no*_
| the__alchemist wrote:
| This is heartening to see; Much of what I read about business
| here are driven by selling the company after a few years as the
| explicit goal from the start.
| josefritzishere wrote:
| If you get interested in early cymbal makers, Zildjian can trace
| it's origins back to the 1600s... that's hard to beat. But there
| are many from the turn of the century that are just as good but
| less well known like XE Ajaha. We're also in a bit of a "Golden
| Age" for young independent cymbal smiths. So there are fabulous,
| hand-made cymbals being made every day now. It's all about the
| bronze.
| inanutshellus wrote:
| > cymbals ... > that's hard to beat.
|
| :cough: I mean, they're not... that hard to beat... :cough:
| don-code wrote:
| I lived down the street from the old Zildjian plant in Quincy.
| It's amazing how much product they were able to produce in such a
| small space.
|
| Sometime within the last ten years, it was knocked down and
| replaced with an apartment building even bigger than the plant.
| disillusioned wrote:
| Funny to see this here today. I just bought a K Sweet cymbal pack
| yesterday from Guitar Center because I'm finally getting my drums
| back out after nearly a decade and my cymbal case (of Sabians)
| was stolen a few years ago from my storage unit. They sound
| amazing and hit the perfect balance for me.
| dosco189 wrote:
| There's a 1500 year old company -
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kong%C5%8D_Gumi
| hammock wrote:
| Zildjian have long been the best cymbals for the "trashy" sound
| and Sabian for the "clean" sound. Great company
| y-c-o-m-b wrote:
| I'm a relatively new drummer (<2 yrs as a hobby), but I'm not
| impressed with Zildjian so far. The cymbals have never sounded
| good to me - sounds "dirty" - and they feel fragile like they'd
| break easily. Guitar Center highly recommended their drumsticks,
| but after using them, I found they break easily and don't feel
| "right" (not sure how to pinpoint the exact issue) compared to
| Vic Firth sticks I have (which are excellent).
|
| I'm not sure if this is an atypical experience with the brand or
| not.
| zzzeek wrote:
| sticks are super personal and the breakage you'll find has a
| lot to do with things like thickness but also the wood, Vic
| Firth are hickory sticks which last a lot longer than a maple
| stick for example. (it also depends on how you are hitting
| things, what volume level, where you're hitting the stick,
| etc). but if a stick doesn't feel "right" that's not usually a
| stick quality issue it's just a weight balance that isn't your
| fit.
|
| that said I've not seen too many people using zildjian
| drumsticks, vic firth, pro mark tend to be the two big names.
|
| the cymbal thing is a whole different ballgame. if you're
| whacking the cymbals really hard and you're looking for a clean
| sound, you'd want to get thicker cymbals with less hammering
| that are more oriented towards hard rock playing. because yes
| if you have a pricey zildjian crash and you're slamming it all
| the time, it will crack eventually (sooner for a thinner
| cymbal) and that is not too abnormal of an incident. you might
| get more bang for your buck with a Paiste Rude cymbal.
| myheadasplode wrote:
| as a recording studio engineer and drummer, a secret about
| Zildjians is that while they may not sound the best in the
| room, their recorded sound still has something special that
| others don't. whether it's the right sound for the song is a
| different question, but when you need it, you'll be hard
| pressed to find it with another company.
| freedomben wrote:
| Interesting. I'm a pretty bad drummer due to difficulty keeping
| time (pretty damn important for a drummer :-D), but I love to
| play, and I've always loved Zildjian. Until the last few years
| I wasn't really able to afford them so frequently bought them
| used, but the crash especially just has a great sound to me. I
| am a big rock and metal type of person so that's probably a big
| factor.
| SpikedCola wrote:
| What cymbal line have you used?
|
| The "ZBT" cymbals I started on were not great (cheap, meant for
| beginners), but over time I've switched to the "A" series which
| sound comparatively great.
|
| The "K" dry sound is even more impressive, albeit with an
| accompanying price tag.
| tibbon wrote:
| My kit is all K special dry customs and I love them. I
| haven't cracked or damaged them in 5+ years.
| the_mitsuhiko wrote:
| > Vic Firth
|
| Fun fact, Vic Firth nowadays is part of Zildjian.
| myheadasplode wrote:
| additional fun fact, they used to make pepper shakers and
| rolling pins, too. if you've got a mill, why not?
| gamache wrote:
| Zildjian cymbals are not any more prone to breaking than other
| manufacturers'. Whether they sound good to you is another
| story. :) It's hard to make that judgment about a product line
| so big and varied anyway.
|
| These days I'm playing Sabians, mostly AAX. Not out of brand
| loyalty, just cause they all sound pretty good for what I do
| (loud, fast rock). But I've had a handful of Zildjians that I
| really enjoyed (wish I still had the 24" A Ping Ride that I
| broke in high school), some Paistes, a Meinl here, a Byzance
| there...
| TheLegace wrote:
| You have to consider that when you are a new drummer you won't
| have good control of your power. So you will tend to hit things
| a lot harder just to keep up. This means you will break sticks
| and cymbals more often.
|
| I have been playing for 10+ years that was a huge problem for
| me, but eventually your mind will adapt to dynamic nature of
| keeping time. I feel most people think keeping time as a
| singular action, but its mostly managing dynamics and spacing
| of music. Cymbals are fundamental to accomplish that.
|
| I will say that I personally prefer Sabian since I am a
| rock/metal drummer. But Zildjian cymbals are thinner and softer
| they will have less volume but a brighter and more lush sound.
| Most of their products are designed for softer Jazz and Pop
| playing. If you want something in between Paiste and Meinl try
| to fill that gap.
| nine_k wrote:
| What impressed me is not just the secret of the alloy and
| processing that stays for 400 years, but the fact that they have
| six hundred models of cymbals! Say, Fender offers about a dozen
| models of guitars, and guitars arguably have more tweakable parts
| that affect the sound, the manner of play, and just the exterior.
| michaelmior wrote:
| Cymbals have a surprising amount of things that can be tweaked
| on them. I'd also imagine it's far cheaper to manufacture a new
| model of cymbal than it is a new model of guitar.
|
| That said, Fender lists hundreds of guitar models available on
| their website.
| bluGill wrote:
| There is a lot you can change on guitar. The wood species
| (including plywood) can get you 50 different models from
| otherwise the same patterns (there are hundreds of different
| wood possible, but not all of them will be compatible with
| your patterns - either not strong enough for the thickness,
| are known to sound bad and so not tried - Luther books have
| charts of pros and cons of different woods). You can put
| several different pickups in it (including none) Then you can
| put a few different styles of truss rod in, tuners, cover
| with one of a dozen different finishes - it is easy to get
| over a thousand possible combinations then select however
| many.
|
| That is for just one pattern, but there are many different
| patterns. Then we get into acoustic vs electric.
|
| Of course it isn't hard to create a new alloy for your
| cymbals either. The real question is how many different
| models is it worth putting into your catalog. There is a cost
| to each one - even if it never sells you have to be ready to
| make it which means keeping anything specific to that around
| (or at least have suppliers that commits to making whatever
| you would need on-demand)
| nine_k wrote:
| This is correct, but AFAIK if you buy, say, a Stratocaster,
| it can come in a number of different colors / finishes,
| maybe with a couple different options of wood for the
| fretboard, possibly a couple different options for the
| pickups, but this is still the same model.
|
| I suppose that the cymbals makers just cut their models
| more thinly.
| toss1 wrote:
| At college I was acquainted with one of the family who told me a
| story about when one of his uncles was in Egypt and on a tour of
| the pyramids or some ancient site. The guide said they had
| unearthed some bronze chisels used for stonecutting and their
| scientists had no idea how the alloy had been made that hard and
| tough. The uncle thought to himself "I know...", and smiled. He
| said they keep it _very_ closely guarded, and have for centuries.
| bluGill wrote:
| I'm sure any competent chemist could figure it out (though it
| may be some destructive tests and it will cost more money than
| they are likely willing to spend. For that matter any competent
| metallurgist can give you a modern alloy that is likely better
| (alloys are of course a compromise so better in one area may be
| worse in a different one). Not that is matters as anyone today
| who wants to cut stone will use modern steel not bronze (unless
| they are trying to reproduce the old methods which can
| sometimes be valuable for understanding)
| ericcumbee wrote:
| >Since the 1970s, the Avedis Zildjian Co. has operated under the
| radar in Norwell, Massachusetts.
|
| under the radar? maybe its because I'm a former Marching band kid
| that played the cymbals. but Zildjian is THE brand when it comes
| to cymbals.
| wrigby wrote:
| Right? If you spend time around drummers at all, you almost
| definitely know the name Zildjian (the same way drummers know
| the names Fender and Gibson).
| I_AM_A_SMURF wrote:
| I think here under the radar means that locals didn't know the
| factory was there, not that Zildjian is an unknown brand, it
| even goes on to say
|
| > Even in Massachusetts many people have no idea an industrial
| factory outside of Boston designs, casts, blasts, rolls,
| hammers, buffs and tests at least a million Zildjian cymbals
| each year.
| mbloom1915 wrote:
| Zildjian's history and global reach is truly exceptional. I've
| tried many cymbals over the years but Zildjian has a nailed a
| specific deep resonating sound others can't compete with. Heres
| to another 400 years!
| ge96 wrote:
| A buddy of mine is an antique guy and I went to an auction with
| him one time. I saw a drum set and he said something like "oh
| yeah that's worth liker $400" only thing he bought was the
| cymbal.
| h14h wrote:
| I played percussion in High School and Zildjian is lodged in my
| brain as the "best" quality cymbals.
|
| I have no idea how accurate that is, but it's a testament to
| their brand recognition just how firmly they grabbed a hold of my
| impressionable young mind.
| havefunbesafe wrote:
| I thought the same and nearly was the purchaser of a Zildjian
| back tattoo. That would have been a top tier blunder year move.
| xivzgrev wrote:
| This was fun. Personally I liked sabian more, the cymbals sounded
| brighter and bolder to me. Zildjians were more dull - maybe the
| ones I used in school band / drum instructors were so old!
| havefunbesafe wrote:
| Ahh nothing like the sound of a heavy wet rag over a 14"
| Zildjian hi hat. I do agree, and I prefer Paiste for the exact
| same reasons.
| Gimpei wrote:
| Looks like he moved to the US only five years before the Armenian
| Genocide and I'm guessing it was because he could see the writing
| on the wall. Goes to show that massacring your citizens has an
| economic cost.
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