[HN Gopher] A Tricycle of the Mind
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A Tricycle of the Mind
Author : walterbell
Score : 25 points
Date : 2024-12-30 18:37 UTC (4 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (marcusb.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (marcusb.org)
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I sort of disagree with the example of the Python code and the
| BASIC code - if you have a pretty smart kid who knows the English
| language who decides to think about things when looking at these
| two bits of code the one looking at the python code might think
| "I bet I can learn how to do this" the one reading the BASIC code
| will not think that intuitively from looking at the code and
| knowing nothing else.
| mrob wrote:
| You need reference materials to learn both of them. The Python
| example looks more like English, but anybody who assumes it
| works like English and tries to modify it will quickly find it
| doesn't work like that. The experience could be more
| discouraging than seeing a mysterious BASIC keyword. BASIC has
| the advantage that you don't need to read so much reference
| material because it's a simpler language. Well-written printed
| manuals for BASIC were widely available.
| bryanrasmussen wrote:
| I suppose I did not explain that I know all that, but be
| reassured - I too am an old person.
|
| However assuming an intelligent youngster familiar with
| English I don't think such a hypothetical person would assume
| it works like English because some things might remind them
| of English - given that there is quite a bit that is
| obviously different than English.
|
| It would take a very strange intelligence to look at their
| first programming language and say, huh this thing that makes
| a computer draw a line has some words like English uses but
| it is obviously not English, I will try to modify it like
| English. After all - Python is not Cobol.
|
| I suppose someone with a desire to learn might do so quicker
| with BASIC, but I am only supposing that seeing the Python
| code might make them think I CAN LEARN - and sometimes the
| idea I can learn is the parent of the desire to learn.
| marcus0x62 wrote:
| Hi, author of the original post here. I think I mostly
| agree with this. My frame of mind when writing this was
| about starting from scratch, without an existing mental
| model of computers, or much outside help. Despite the odd
| syntax (by modern standards,) I just think there was less
| cognitive load to get started with the old 8 bit BASICs,
| and they all had the sorts of things kids like to
| experiment with (sound, graphics) built in.
|
| I also wasn't thinking about this from the perspective of
| the tooling discouraging someone from wanting to learn -
| that just wasn't a problem my friends and I had, but I can
| see how the modern tools could be more likely to inspire
| someone on the fence to continue.
|
| Anyway, thanks for the comment.
| rahimnathwani wrote:
| A smart 8yo with a 10 wpm typing soeed could type in the BASIC
| program without a problem.
|
| That same smart 8yo would probably make at least one typo
| trying to type in the Python program. And they would need to
| read the error message and figure out where in the file they
| made a mistake.
|
| I'm considering having my son try this Python MOOC:
| https://programming-24.mooc.fi/ The exercises can be completed
| inline. I wouldn't just hand him a python book and a computer.
| Whereas I could totally imagine him learning something with the
| Acorn Electron and book I had at 10yo or 11yo.
| fernly wrote:
| I would think that if you couldn't set up a modern computer so
| that it launched a BASIC interpreter immediately on completing
| boot-up, you could at least have the BASIC ready as an obvious
| icon on the desktop and taskbar/dock, so that a double-click
| would get it going. Microsoft 365 BASIC is a thing for Win11, and
| on the Apple App Store there is BestBASIC with an example of it
| drawing the Mandelbrot set. There are also LOGO interpreters for
| Win and Mac.
| marcus0x62 wrote:
| Of course. That's all possible. When I wrote this I was
| thinking about defaults, and what I could do and did do out of
| the box with nobody knowledgeable around to guide me.
| block_dagger wrote:
| I also grew up with an Apple IIe and made dungeon games and text
| adventures in BASIC. But I was limited to a single manual and
| lived in a rural area with no nerd friends. The Internet, phones,
| and LLMs fill in all the gaps now, so the added complexity of
| today's hardware and software is much more manageable. They are
| the third wheel on the tricycle or, if you prefer, training
| wheels on the bike.
| theoa wrote:
| Not short but almost understandable. Given a text editor, save
| the following text as drawline.html: <canvas
| id="myCanvas" width="500" height="300"></canvas>
| <script> const ctx = myCanvas.getContext( "2d" );
| // Draw the line ctx.beginPath(); ctx.moveTo( 50, 50
| ); // Starting point ctx.lineTo( 200, 150 ); // Ending
| point ctx.stroke(); document.write( "Hello
| World" ); </script>
|
| JavaScript is quite forgiving. No need for the HTML preambles.
| "document.getElementById" is a nicety that can also be ignored.
|
| Nonetheless, I (born 1947) too miss the simplicity of BASIC, the
| plethora of magazines for beginners, the many shelves of "for
| dummies books". And, especially, that we were _all_ beginners.
|
| These days, full stack developers and AI are priestly classes
| that that, currently, do not facilitate the investigation by
| newbs of the black boxes they create.
|
| Nonetheless, I look forward to AI being able to read aloud
| Python, Rust, Cobal, Euler notation, Greek or whatever in ways
| that I may understand.
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