[HN Gopher] Are PC hardware companies driving technology into re...
___________________________________________________________________
Are PC hardware companies driving technology into restricted closed
ecosystems?
Author : trinsic2
Score : 135 points
Date : 2024-12-29 19:11 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.scottrlarson.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.scottrlarson.com)
| Terr_ wrote:
| That reminds me of how Dell was (still?) used different
| PSU/motherboard power connections, and at one point the
| physically matching connectors with different pinouts meant Dell
| PSUs would fry regular motherboards or vice-versa.
|
| This sounds like more of the same, a kind of uncaring that shades
| into hostility.
| userbinator wrote:
| _and at one point the physically matching connectors with
| different pinouts meant Dell PSUs would fry regular
| motherboards or vice-versa._
|
| I think it's more than "uncaring" - since they just shifted the
| pinout 3 pins over from standard ATX, got rid of the 3.3V and
| added another 2 5V lines:
| https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=59959
| barrkel wrote:
| Compaq was always worse in this regard, making almost PC but
| not quite PCs.
| ocdtrekkie wrote:
| A lot of Dell design is slightly more proprietary. At their
| scale the slight cost or efficiency gains they pick up are
| probably worth the extra design changes. At work we use all
| Dells and generally speaking the changes generally lead to a
| nicer technician experience. And sometimes standards suck: Dell
| E-series docks were drastically more reliable and less fragile
| than USB-C and I miss them terribly.
|
| For what it's worth, I'm not sure the consumer is hurt too bad
| either: Because of their sheer scale, aftermarket Dell parts
| and clone parts are extremely cheap. Any Dell part number turns
| ip tons off off-brand replacements on Amazon and eBay.
|
| The biggest downside to Dell's approach is e-waste. When they
| change a design, otherwise serviceable hardware isn't useful
| when working with newer models. Speaking of those wonderful old
| E-series docks, we had to replace them all simply because they
| don't sell laptops with the connector anymore.
| hinkley wrote:
| DOS ain't done 'til Lotus won't run.
| K0balt wrote:
| [flagged]
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Who do you buy from when they're all bad. I don't think buying
| a Linux laptop is a serious option even for most enthusiasts.
| The software, hardware, and battery life just aren't there.
| shmerl wrote:
| I think it's just some lingering propaganda of those who
| oppose adoption of Linux. Things are pretty usable and are
| there for those who want to use them. Not necessarily Dell
| though - haven't used them in a long time.
| goda90 wrote:
| Framework seems pretty Linux friendly. System76 is dedicated
| to Linux hardware.
| jay_kyburz wrote:
| I thought you could buy Dells with Linux on them instead of
| Windows. Software is better, hardware is the same.
|
| I think its just a battery life issue, and as far as I know
| its not much worse than windows.
|
| If you are going to carry the power brick around with you
| anyway, might as well just plug in it a little earlier.
| gostsamo wrote:
| Dell were those who put drm on the power supply. I doubt
| that I'll buy from them ever again.
| johnbellone wrote:
| They sold a few specific models with Linux as an option.
| IIRC they were mostly developer centric marketing.
| int_19h wrote:
| It is quite a bit worse in practice depending on what you
| do.
|
| For example, with web browsers, most Linux ones (including
| Chrome and Firefox) disable much of hardware accelerated
| graphics on Linux by default because of "unstable graphics
| drivers". If I remember correctly, Chrome just disables it
| across the board, while Firefox has a whitelist of drivers
| considered stable which is basically just Intel.
|
| In my testing, unless you muck around with these settings,
| you're can easily lose something like an _hour_ of battery
| life compared to Windows if all you do is just browse
| websites (and I 'm not even talking about anything fancy
| here; my automated test was literally just scrolling the
| main Reddit feed).
| gostsamo wrote:
| I'm thinking either Framework or Lenovo. It might be
| interesting to see what good arm laptops will be available
| next year when I might finally decide to upgrade my current
| machine.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Dell will sell you an XPS 13 with linux preloaded, but you'll
| pay extra. It's ludicrous that you can't just choose it for
| any laptop.
|
| https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/laptops/intel-core-ultra-
| ser...
|
| I had one of the early Project Sputnik laptops (XPS 13 with
| Ubuntu preloaded) and loved it. Now I use a Framework which
| is fine, but not anything amazing.
| alexjplant wrote:
| > Who do you buy from when they're all bad. I don't think
| buying a Linux laptop is a serious option even for most
| enthusiasts. The software, hardware, and battery life just
| aren't there.
|
| I'm writing to you from a $250 laptop running Mint (with 11
| hours of charge remaining) that this is is pure,
| unadulterated FUD from 20 years ago.
|
| Lenovo certifies their systems for use with both RHEL and
| Ubuntu [1] which means that most mainstream distros will work
| contemporary, high-end business ultrabooks that are widely
| regarded as some of the best in their class. Arch has a lush,
| green compatibility matrix [2] for these laptops too. Once a
| year on average I buy a four-year-old T series and throw Mint
| on it for a friend or relative and everything works out of
| the box. This has been the case for at least a decade. If you
| don't want to buy a Thinkpad then the acclaimed XPS 13 is one
| of many [3] Dell laptops that comes pre-loaded with Ubuntu.
| Others in this thread have also pointed out the numerous
| vendors that ship Linux on rebadged barebones hardware.
|
| We need to cut it out with the "desktop Linux is hard" meme.
| It's a counterproductive mind virus. It hasn't been true
| since the Bush administration and almost always amounts to
| some hand-wavey comment like the above. The hoops you have to
| jump through with modern Windows a la Group Policy hacks, TPM
| requirement bypass, selecting the exactly-correct LTSC
| version, etc. are consistently greater than anything you have
| to deal with on modern desktop Linux in my experience.
|
| [1]
| https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/solutions/pd031426-linux-
| fo...
|
| [2] https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/Laptop/Lenovo
|
| [3] https://www.dell.com/en-us/shop/dell-
| laptops/scr/laptops/app...
| mhluongo wrote:
| > The software, hardware, and battery life just aren't there.
|
| Writing this from a Framework 13. I've been using Linux
| laptops for the past 15 years, and this is the first time a
| Linux-friendly machine has checked all my boxes (including
| excellent battery life).
| Rygian wrote:
| > Don't buy shitty products, or soon there will be no non-
| shitty products
|
| The only way to fight enshitification is government regulation.
|
| Otherwise, for the 0.1% of market population able to make an
| informed choice, there remains a 99.9% of consumers ready to
| buy the cheapest thing and then shrug up or whine.
| aleph_minus_one wrote:
| > The only way to fight enshitification is government
| regulation.
|
| A good friend of me decided to stop (as far as possible)
| having any further contact to people who use "spying devices"
| in his presence.
|
| A good idea.
| numbsafari wrote:
| Counter example: TVs
| alexchamberlain wrote:
| I think we need more details: do you mean TVs aren't getting
| worse, or are? Why? What examples do you have?
|
| I think LG's webOS is nice - its consumer friendly, but as a
| developer, you can whip something up and install it on your
| TV easily in an afternoon. OTOH, I believe not all the APIs
| are documented, as some of the interfaces provided to/from
| Netflix/Prime Video/Dinsey+ don't appear to be possible with
| documented APIs, and ofc, from a hardware perspective, they
| are completely locked in.
| rakoo wrote:
| Capitalism.
|
| We should call it out loud and clear where ever we see it.
|
| Don't buy from for-profit entities, or soon there will be no
| non-for-profit entities.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| counterpoint:
|
| Its a security feature to limit the amount of rootkits that are
| installed.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| I agree there's need for a consortium or organization. If only to
| wage a marketing campaign that hurts these harmful companies.
| Ologn wrote:
| Last week there was a "Switched Back to Windows After over 10
| Years on Linux" thread (
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42496032 ), and this story
| shows one of the reasons I prefer Linux to Windows.
| rbanffy wrote:
| Or, at least, get a computer that's also offered with Linux.
| duskwuff wrote:
| The complaint here seems a little misguided.
|
| The AHCI / RAID switch the author is describing is only relevant
| to drive controllers which support SATA disks - AHCI is the
| protocol that's used to interact with a SATA controller. This
| switch has no effect on NVMe drives, and never has; the fact that
| the BIOS control for it even mentioned NVMe is odd.
|
| The "RST storage driver" (i.e. Intel Rapid Storage Technology) is
| only required for systems which support SATA RAID using an Intel
| integrated RAID controller. It is not required to use NVMe
| devices. I wouldn't expect Dell to provide this driver for
| systems which don't use SATA disks, since it wouldn't do
| anything.
|
| It certainly wouldn't surprise me if there were some weird trick
| required to perform a clean install of Windows on these machines.
| But I don't think the author has identified it correctly, and I
| find their theory that this is a deliberate effort to "control
| the user experience" unconvincing.
| trinsic2 wrote:
| You can switch into ACHI mode for NVME drives. The point is you
| cannot install windows clean without either having the RST
| driver, if your storage device is set to a RAID configuration
| in the BIOS, or switching into AHCI mode which my article
| describes. Since the Dell Laptop model I described did not have
| an option to switch from RAID into ACHI I was unable to install
| windows clean without the RST Driver. And that driver is not
| included on Dell's Website.
|
| Please tell me where this is misguided..
| Hizonner wrote:
| I'm a bit lost in all this, except for kind of thinking that
| it shows X86 is a giant mess.
|
| First, doesn't Windows knows how to use NVME drives _as NVME
| drives_ , without going through some weird SATA compatibility
| layer? Second, if I'm reading you right, Windows also has
| bundled drivers for RST. It's just that the installer
| doesn't.
|
| Is that right? Are you saying that the Windows _installer_
| doesn 't know how to use storage interfaces that the final
| installed Windows _system_ would know how to use, and
| furthermore that those include storage interfaces that might
| be used for the _boot drive_? So in order to install, you
| have to get an RST driver and somehow load it into the
| installer, but after that the system will work?
|
| Because that sounds like a Windows problem more than a BIOS
| problem. You're installing your OS on reasonably vanilla
| storage[^1]. Why would you expect to have to download a
| driver from Dell at all?
|
| [^1]: Sort of vanilla. I don't know about this "RST" nonsense
| and am suspicious of anything that might make it hard to move
| a drive, or indeed an entire RAID array, to another computer
| or controller intact.
| wmf wrote:
| _Are you saying that the Windows installer doesn 't know
| how to use storage interfaces that the final installed
| Windows system would know how to use, and furthermore that
| those include storage interfaces that might be used for the
| boot drive? So in order to install, you have to get an RST
| driver and somehow load it into the installer, but after
| that the system will work?_
|
| After reading the Dell documentation... yeah, that's
| exactly the situation. A laptop only has one drive BTW.
| saxonww wrote:
| IDK about misguided, but I just went to the Dell website,
| went to support, looked up the Inspiron 16 Plus model 7640,
| and promptly found an Intel RST driver [0].
|
| I am not disputing your experience at all, but it is weird to
| me that we'd need an RST driver to install Windows with an
| NVMe device; RST is a SATA/AHCI RAID tech, and while it does
| also do something with the 'optane memory' accelerators that
| Intel used to sell, I wouldn't have expected it to also make
| NVMe drives visible to the installer. My own experience is
| not current at this point, though.
|
| [0] https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-
| us/drivers/driversdetai...
| aspenmayer wrote:
| I was also able to find that driver and posted it in
| another thread. I can fully believe that it wasn't
| available when OP searched for it, but maybe they just
| didn't find it due to Dell's support site being somewhat
| difficult to navigate for people who aren't used to
| troubleshooting Dell computers and especially clean
| installing or dual booting them.
|
| One workaround is to install in AHCI mode and then use the
| safe mode method to switch the storage mode out from under
| Windows, install missing drivers for the desired boot mode
| under safe mode if they aren't installed automatically by
| Windows, then reboot to exit safe mode.
|
| https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22631-enable-ahci-
| window...
|
| https://www.tenforums.com/drivers-hardware/15006-attn-ssd-
| ow...
|
| However, OP doesn't seem to have the option to switch to
| anything other than RST, which could be due to BIOS
| settings and/or Windows settings, as well as flags on your
| partitions that cause Windows to boot in read only mode.
| You might need to toggle some settings for legacy/uefi
| compatibility mode, reset BIOS/EFI to ( _un_ optimized for
| Windows 8 /10/11) default settings, disable secure boot
| temporarily, etc to let the EFI allow you to toggle the
| boot mode on some Dell BIOSes, however, especially in OP's
| case where they appear to not have any alternate drive
| modes besides RST in BIOS/EFI. In especially bad cases, you
| might even need to update the BIOS to enable these modes
| and/or wipe the EFI partitions and possibly the entire boot
| drive, as sometimes the BIOS/EFI is inserting itself in the
| boot process via "dirty bits" and/or Fast Startup mode.
|
| https://superuser.com/questions/1554458/how-does-windows-
| loc...
| emn13 wrote:
| Presumably the author really is missing a driver; I doubt he'd
| have missed being able to install without it. If he really does
| need such a driver; then the exact name of it or the details of
| Dell's BIOS options and whether they help sound fairly
| incidental to the underlying story.
|
| Your criticism may be reasonable; but does it really cut at the
| heart of the issue? Also; some of these options are
| occasionally oddly named, so let's not ignore the possibility
| that the article's author is right on this.
| duskwuff wrote:
| > Your criticism may be reasonable; but does it really cut at
| the heart of the issue?
|
| The article hardly provides any support for its "closed
| ecosystems" thesis beyond this anecdote. Whatever the
| situation is on this hardware (and wmf's sibling comment
| points out that there might indeed be something odd going
| on), it seems far more likely that it's the result of sloppy
| engineering by Dell and/or Microsoft, rather than a
| deliberate plan to restrict user choice (or something).
| wmf wrote:
| I think there is a newer version of RST based on NVMe and it
| has the same problem: if the system is in RST mode the SSDs
| aren't visible. Dell even has a recent article about this exact
| problem: https://www.dell.com/support/kbdoc/en-
| us/000188116/intel-11t...
| aspenmayer wrote:
| Nice spot for that article.
|
| I'm not sure what to make of OP's issues tbh, as I was able
| to find the RST driver for their model here:
|
| https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-
| us/drivers/driversdetai...
|
| via
|
| https://www.dell.com/support/home/en-us/product-
| support/prod...
|
| Also, you can reboot into safe mode on Windows 10/11 and even
| 8/8.1, and before it reaches Windows initialization, enter
| the BIOS/EFI, toggle the AHCI/RAID/RST mode flag, save and
| exit BIOS/EFI, continue booting Windows to safe mode, install
| drivers if they aren't automatically installed by Windows,
| then reboot to exit safe mode. Apparently safe mode re-
| initializes the HAL similarly to the first install reboot
| OOBE mode, but normally HAL doesn't like you doing this in
| normal boot mode.
|
| https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/22631-enable-ahci-
| window...
|
| https://www.tenforums.com/drivers-hardware/15006-attn-ssd-
| ow...
| wmf wrote:
| _enter the BIOS /EFI, toggle the AHCI/RAID/RST mode flag_
|
| He said (with screenshots) that flag doesn't exist. Maybe
| he didn't look hard enough for the flag and didn't look
| hard enough for the driver though. I got a "I don't want to
| fix my laptop; I want to complain" vibe from the blog post.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| I suspect that Fast Startup and/or dirty bits on
| partitions are causing the EFI to disable those modes,
| and/or secure boot and/or Windows 8/10/11 "optimized
| settings" checkboxes causing the mode to not display or
| otherwise not be available, as I allude to in another
| thread on this post. Dell is not the only offender in
| this, as I've seen even more locked-down EFIs than Dell's
| that won't even allow you to disable secure boot.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42543721
| wmf wrote:
| This is ridiculously confusing!
| aspenmayer wrote:
| Yes, I would agree! I also agree with you that OP didn't
| seem to be troubleshooting as much as venting, but from
| the Reddit thread that someone else posted, OP seems
| sympathetic and responsive to helpful commenters, so I
| hope that they see this HN post if they still need it,
| which was unclear from the Reddit thread.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42543714
| numbsafari wrote:
| I haven't used a dell computer in over 15 years at this point and
| I don't miss them even one little bit.
|
| If you want open, buy open. Options exist.
| siltcakes wrote:
| Do you just use your phone? I can't stand "typing" on it (maybe
| I'm old). It's literally painful vs my 100+ wpm on a real
| keyboard.
| E39M5S62 wrote:
| They specified a brand of computer - I imagine they're just
| using equipment from another company.
| codr7 wrote:
| Dell makes crap computers, period.
| calmbonsai wrote:
| Dell has been crap in the server, "blade", desktop, and laptop
| space for over 20 years.
|
| They couldn't even get their touch-pads consistent
| (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41992784).
|
| I have very few generic vendor sourcing advice when it comes to
| computing hardware, but "Nobody ever got fired for NOT buying
| Dell." is one of them.
|
| Just don't.
| virtualwhys wrote:
| Counterpoint, running Dell R430 rack server for nearly ten
| years -- in that time a single SSD in raid 10, 8 disk array,
| has failed.
|
| Maybe I got lucky?
|
| Similarly, my last three laptops have all been Dell Precision
| -- only issue until I switched to Intel integrated gpu was
| Nvidia on Linux (black screens, laptop attempting liftoff due
| to gpu heating issues) causing periodic grief.
|
| Also, for the author, Dell Precision provides advanced BIOS
| options out of the box, something that their consumer line of
| laptops probably doesn't offer.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Dell's rack servers are one of the rare servers which refused
| to die under continuous heavy load (HPC).
|
| Their R815s after eliminating the early failures (leading edge
| of the bathtub curve) just trucked on. I used to run an
| OpenStack cluster on top of them till last April or so. At the
| end, either the CPU power regulators died, or their RAID cards
| just called quits. No other errors after 10+ years of service.
|
| We also have their newer CPU and GPU servers. They just work.
| Scream occasionally due to high load, but not overheating or
| dying.
|
| They're built like a tank, from our experience.
| rbanffy wrote:
| They also have the MI300A-based servers. I'd love to misuse
| one as a workstation.
| wongarsu wrote:
| Dell's business laptops are pretty solid, as are their tiny
| form factor PCs. I'd advise against Dell in regards to anything
| geared towards consumers, but there are many good things in
| their business offerings.
| codr7 wrote:
| They look and feel cheap, and I've never come across one that
| isn't broken.
| rbanffy wrote:
| Business laptops are designed to last one refresh cycle
| while not being loved or well cared for. They don't look
| great, but they keep working.
| hjgjhyuhy wrote:
| Previous gen Dell laptops at my workplace had issues with
| expanding batteries. Newer ones don't, but are made from
| really cheap plastic, and have bad battery life.
|
| I would definitely avoid their laptops and get Thinkpads
| instead.
| catkitcourt wrote:
| Maybe consider prevent Intel and RST. They are nightmare out of
| factory.
| userbinator wrote:
| _Normally, you would see this screen that allows you to switch
| storage modes_
|
| And back when PCs were far more open, good old IDE was always an
| option too.
|
| Ever since BIOS became EFI, and flash ROMs started getting _much_
| bigger, it seems they 've not been adding functionality but
| removing it slowly. The excuse is often "security" ( _against_
| the user), and "legacy" (the oldest interfaces are also the most
| widely understood and stable).
|
| That said, I'd stay away from the "prebuilt" manufacturers like
| Dell, Lenovo, HP, etc. if you want configurability. They've
| always had far less options in their BIOS than equivalent
| offerings from "enthusiast" or "gamer" oriented companies,
| although in the laptop space it's more difficult to do that.
| JJMcJ wrote:
| If you're lucky enough to live in an area that still has small
| computer shops you can also get made to order if you aren't up
| to making one yourself.
|
| In Silicon Valley you can go to Central Computer, though they
| aren't a tiny neighborhood shop by any means.
|
| For laptops you might buy a Linux laptop.
| distortedsignal wrote:
| When you say "made to order" - you're talking about desktops,
| ya? Not laptops? If there are made to order laptops, I need
| to see that.
|
| I'm planning on using Central for a PC build in a month or so
| - definitely going to try to stretch my dollars.
| mattnewton wrote:
| This used to be a thing- I remember my father excitedly
| configuring a made-to-order laptop from ZipZoomFly[0] back
| in the day. I think that the market wasn't kind to them
| though, the ecosystem about replaceable laptop parts never
| matured to the point where it was competitive with the
| proprietary designs, and standards constantly changed
| because of the form factor' constraints, so the dream of
| just replacing a single part never materialized.
|
| Closest thing to that dream now is the framework laptop,
| which does have replaceable parts.
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZipZoomfly]
| Aurornis wrote:
| > And back when PCs were far more open, good old IDE was always
| an option too.
|
| IDE is extremely slow, the connectors occupy a lot of precious
| space, and it hasn't been used for modern drives for a very,
| very long time.
|
| If anyone really needs IDE then they should get a USB IDE
| adapter for their use case.
|
| Faulting motherboard manufacturers for removing ancient
| connectors is just grasping at straws.
| userbinator wrote:
| I'm referring to the software interface.
| hinkley wrote:
| I still hope to some day see Postgres ported to run directly on
| a RAID controller. EBPF already exists running on NICs but we
| need more things of that sort. I suppose Synology has a bit of
| an analog of this in that their NASes can run docker images on
| their end which makes better use of their gigabit ethernet
| connection. But that's basically a whole second computer.
| bboygravity wrote:
| I really really want to want Framework 16 for example.
|
| But 2,5 kg versus 1,8 kg for a Lenovo with way better specs
| (I'm a traveller, weight is everything)... tough...
| nrp wrote:
| Framework Laptop 16 without a dGPU is 2.1kg.
| SomeHacker44 wrote:
| Microcenter's pre built PowerSpec PCs are great. They are all
| basically OTS components so easy to upgrade, yet get pre built
| convenience.
| walterbell wrote:
| _> We are slowly being boiled to the point of no return. We need
| some kind of consortium for users to represent our interests
| otherwise in 10 or 20 years we will have very limited choice when
| it comes to computer technology._
|
| For servers purchased in bulk by hyperscalers, OpenCompute has
| done a great job of coordinating owner requirements for hardware
| and firmware delivered by ODMs and silicon vendors in the server
| supply chain. Founded by Facebook, OCP built on the ethos of
| whitebox servers at early Google.
|
| To create a similar organization for clients, one would need to
| pool enough buying power to influence the supply chain for "PC"
| (x86/Arm) client devices. OCP bypassed Tier 1 OEMs and worked
| directly with Taiwan ODMs. This worked because hyperscalers could
| implement custom firmware and do their own support. The closest
| existing client vendor might be Framework, which has not yet
| managed open-source firmware. Plus Clevo (coreboot) OEMs.
|
| A possible baby step towards open clients would be an OCP
| reference design for a "privileged access workstation" that is
| used exclusively to access security-sensitive administrator web
| consoles for hyperscaler clouds. Include both a discrete TPM and
| an open silicon root of trust (OCP MS Caliptra or Google
| OpenTitan are both open firmware). AMD OpenSIL has promised OSS
| client firmware by 2026 and AMD mini-PC boards are everywhere.
| The building blocks are present for a high-integrity reference
| client with open firmware, under control of the client-owning
| cloud customer.
|
| With suitable licensing, anyone from Tier1 PC OEMs or small
| vendors could create custom derivatives of the OCP reference
| client IF they retain mandatory core properties like open
| firmware and open silicon RoT. We could intentionally reboot the
| accidentally-open IBM PC ecosystem, at least for the small niche
| of secure cloud administration.
|
| [1] https://www.opencompute.org
| jsheard wrote:
| Although on the subject of hyperscaler hardware and restricted
| closed ecosystems, AMD EPYC processors have that nice feature
| which allows OEMs to permanently vendor-lock the processor to
| their hardware on first boot, so you can't take a chip from a
| Dell server and stick it in a non-Dell server for example. If
| you're buying a random surplus EPYC processor you might not
| even be able to know which vendor it's bound to until you try
| it.
| walterbell wrote:
| At some point, EU "circular economy" rules will need to look
| at secure mechanisms for transfer of decommissioned hardware
| ownership for sale on secondary markets. This also applies to
| hyperscaler server recycling, and even old Apple hardware
| that could be made to work with alternate operating systems.
|
| If AMD EPYC CPU policy is enforced by PSP firmware, then it
| can be negotiated by customers in a large enough, non-OEM,
| buying pool.
| wmf wrote:
| The immediate solution is to not remove the CPU from the
| motherboard. Sell them as a unit.
| prettyStandard wrote:
| I agree and I know you're being helpful, but as soon as
| that's normalized they're going to start locking the ram.
| biando wrote:
| I consider myself a mediocre geek and a big fan of the look and
| feel of the DELL Optiplex 7020 SFF. Without diving into too many
| details, I typically buy around 3-4 of them yearly (i5 CPU, 16 GB
| RAM, 256 GB disk) and add an additional 1 TB drive. I always
| replace the OS with Ubuntu.
|
| Do you have any recommendations for an alternative machine? I'm
| looking for a solid, reliable workhorse that could serve for
| years. My current DELL setup has never failed or let me down, and
| I'd like to find something within a similar budget that I can
| rely on for constant use for years.
| yencabulator wrote:
| You said SFF -> I recently got a
| https://store.minisforum.com/products/minisforum-um890pro and
| it's been great in the small computer category.
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| The whole point is that used business machines are way
| cheaper... like 50/60 each maybe 100-120 max.
| yencabulator wrote:
| Ah, used changes the game. I optimized for compilation
| speed (in the tiny box category), so a used Dell would not
| have helped me.
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| Companies sell these off after just a few years as
| warranty goes out. You can pick up 2019/2020 machines on
| ebay. Fast enough for most things.
| yencabulator wrote:
| There's no such thing as "fast enough" for Rust
| compilation. I'm putting the AMD CPU, 96 GB RAM, and a
| fast NVMe all to good use and still have time for a sword
| fight..
| shwouchk wrote:
| Im curious, what do you use so many "low power desktop" devices
| for?
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| Lenovo Thinkcentre and HP Elitedesk. Same type of small
| business machines.
| amluto wrote:
| This issue goes back a long way, and the blame goes to a
| combination of OEMs and Intel (and AMD) wanting to sell RAID
| solutions without needing real RAID hardware, and the Intel CPU
| and chipset teams playing along in ways that they really should
| not have.
|
| In the AHCI era (and earlier), drives connected to a SATA
| controller, and there were three ways this could work:
|
| a) The controller was just a controller. Perhaps it appeared as
| an AHCI device over PCI. No funny business, and the OS could talk
| to the drive more or less directly via the controller.
|
| b) Hardware, at at least hardware-ish, RAID. A RAID controller
| speaks SATA to the drives, and the OS speaks some protocol to the
| controller. It's possible for the protocol to be obnoxious and to
| require obnoxious drivers and/or management software, but at
| least it makes sense.
|
| c) Software "RAID" that pretends to be hardware. The CPU really
| does speak AHCI to the drive, but the vendor has decided to make
| it pretend to be a high end vendor thing and to integrate it with
| BIOS. But this is a mess, since the controller really is AHCI. So
| some hack is done to prevent the OS's native driver from noticing
| the AHCI devices and instead let a (generally very bad) vendor
| "driver" that is actually a full RAID stack claim the devices.
| This could be as simple as firmware asking the AHCI controller
| not to report AHCI compatibility. Intel has also enabled this
| through multiple generations of disgusting kludges.
|
| Enter NVMe. Unlike SATA, there is no controller. NVMe drives are
| PCIe devices. So the choices are different:
|
| a) Vendor does nothing except boot support. NVMe drives show up
| on PCIe just like anything else would.
|
| b) Vendor has an actual RAID controller. It's a device that
| speaks PCIe to the NVMe devices and, itself, acts as an NVMe (or
| AHCI) device as seen by the OS. This could work fine, but it's
| unlikely to be as fast as the drives themselves (NVMe is fast).
|
| c) A truly atrocious hack, again enabled by Intel, in which
| firmware can ask the Intel PCIe hardware to straight up lie to
| the OS about what devices are connected. The hardware will try to
| identify NVMe drives that it's supposed to hide (which is itself
| a mess -- these drives are all actually just PCIe devices, and
| there is no reliable way in general to figure out which devices
| are supposed to be hidden). Then some magic "RAID" driver will do
| some other kludge to talk to the NVMe devices behind the OS's
| back and pretend to be a disk itself. Of course it works poorly.
|
| In any case, I wonder if the OP's machine is actually an example
| of (b), where the NVMe drives, presumably connected to a fancy
| backplane, are genuinely connected via PCIe to an actual RAID
| controller, not the CPU or chipset. If so, a firmware option for
| "native NVMe" would make no sense, and the actual correct
| solution is for the OP to arrange for the Windows installer to
| use the right driver. This has been officially supported, usually
| in some annoying way, since at least Windows NT 4.0 and probably
| for quite a bit longer.
| krinchan wrote:
| The article pretty clearly lays out it's at least functionally
| B. The problem is Dell doesn't publish the drivers necessary
| for the Windows installer on it's website. You can only
| reinstall windows from the recovery partition or via online
| download via an EFI program, similar to Apple Recovery's online
| re-installation. Those install methods include all the Dell
| bloatware and telemetry settings cranked up to 11.
| Avlin67 wrote:
| AHCI with typo... oh boy
| detourdog wrote:
| This is only true for very sophisticated computing. From my point
| of view general purpose computing is alive and and every bit as
| free as the good old days. The only barriers are points of view.
|
| Here is just one example of computing that has no limits on
| problem solving. The only limits are scale and what good is scale
| anyway. Problems solved at scale are too general and over complex
| for most individuals problems.
|
| https://hackaday.com/2019/09/09/everything-you-wanted-to-kno...
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| >This is only true for very sophisticated computing
|
| Like a bog-standard Dell??
| detourdog wrote:
| Not familiar with bog-standards. The form-factor and
| footprint of most desktop computers is simple inertia of the
| current tooling and mindset.
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| Reddit sysadmin sub discussing this
|
| https://old.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/1hp3sst/pc_hardwa...
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Blame Microsoft.
|
| Across multiple laptops the Win 11 iso doesn't have Wifi drivers.
| And since we're in hell, you can't finish the setup process and
| actually use your computer without an Internet connection. Since
| then you'd be able to run an installer for the WiFi drivers.
|
| Luckily you can use an Android phone to create an Internet bridge
| which will allow you to proceed.
|
| However, The OEMs will automatically install CrapWare( we should
| start calling it this) even on vanilla Windows installs.
|
| Compared to my last few CachyOS installs where everything just
| works out of the box. I don't need to provide my email address to
| use my computer.
|
| Honestly as long as I can disable secureboot and install Linux
| it's ok. The moment I can't do this I'll be using legacy hardware
| ( or import a laptop from the EU where this is banned).
|
| Edit: Hopefully the EU will make secure boot an option we can
| disable...
|
| To be fair normal people don't care. My friend needed a new
| laptop, and since she's not too worried about the latest specs I
| just picked up what I could find at target for 300$. She is never
| going to reinstall. When Windows messes itself up in a year or
| two she'll probably just buy another 300$ laptop.
| nrp wrote:
| We've taken to recommending Rufus in our setup guides rather
| than the Windows installation media tool due to the lack of
| recent Wi-Fi drivers in vanilla Windows.
| LtWorf wrote:
| Good thing that now the regular debian image includes non free
| firmwares so wifi cards work during the setup!
| userbinator wrote:
| _However, The OEMs will automatically install CrapWare( we
| should start calling it this) even on vanilla Windows
| installs._
|
| MS itself started doing that in Win10.
| gnopgnip wrote:
| You can finish win 11 setup without internet by pressing shift
| f10 and entering OOBE\BYPASSNRO, it will reboot, then select
| continue without internet.
| Sparkyte wrote:
| Everyone wants to be the next Apple.
| bpye wrote:
| You could probably export the drivers from the OEM media and then
| use those with stock install media [0].
|
| [0] - https://learn.microsoft.com/en-
| us/powershell/module/dism/exp...
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