[HN Gopher] Guide to mechanical keyboards
___________________________________________________________________
Guide to mechanical keyboards
Author : Bluestein
Score : 205 points
Date : 2024-12-25 09:47 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
| bloopernova wrote:
| (2022)
| ethbr1 wrote:
| I was wondering why it was a useful article on Ars...
| imp0cat wrote:
| Oh, is that why Hall-effect keyboards got no mention?
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| They do, as "analog" - but it's more of a brush off than any
| real discussion. What they didn't really talk about at all is
| firmware, which seems like a big omission...
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| I guess it's a matter of habit, but after so many years of laptop
| keyboards everything else feels weird/wrong. I've tried
| mechanical keyboards (for about half ayear) .. and it always felt
| like using some antique typewriter b/c of the key travel
|
| If I need a detached keyboard then the only one that feels normal
| is the Apple Magickeyboard b/c it's exactly like a laptop and
| clicky (the logitech equivalents are very mushy). Wish there was
| one with standard/Windows keys
| Groxx wrote:
| I definitely prefer the lower travel distance. Personally I
| find it much less tiring / RSI-inducing than a normal
| mechanical keyboard / cherry MX switches. I'm not heavily
| bottoming out or anything that are frequent "have you
| tried...", and "just don't bottom out lol" doesn't work for me
| - I've experimented for nearly a decade now, I'm pretty
| confident. Long travel distances are definitely not for me.
|
| I've got a custom keyboard with choc low-profile switches, and
| I like it _a lot_ better. It 's about mid-way between an Apple
| and a cherry MX, and I'm not sure I notice or care to get any
| lower distance since these are so easy to find. Unfortunately
| I'll have to go a lot more custom to get that in a Kinesis
| Advantage/Dactyl-like setup, and I haven't done that yet.
|
| I do prefer MX key _caps_ though (DSA profile, or roughly), the
| smaller center and deeper curve seems to help me calibrate
| better. Choc caps often lean hard into the low-profile thing
| and are very flat, and I 'm not super fond of that.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| If you like those kind of keycaps try MT3 MiTO keycaps, I
| have the same preference - sculpted keycaps with smaller
| centers center and those are my endgame
| Groxx wrote:
| Do they have choc versions? All I'm seeing is MX... though
| google's fu has grown weak so it might just be that it's
| being drowned out by Drop at the moment.
| plagiarist wrote:
| Even the low profile switches? I, too, have acquired the taste
| for laptop keyboards, but I think the LP switches are nice.
| eknkc wrote:
| I got into the hype and bought multiple mechanical keyboards a
| couple years ago. Finally went back to Apple's magic keyboard.
| Touch id was a large factor but apparently I love those chiclet
| keyboards.
| AnthonBerg wrote:
| Apple keyboards: yes. I so rarely see a preference stated
| that matches my own that I am compelled to spend a full
| comment in agreement.
|
| I think part of it is that the keyboard itself is thin.
| There's less of a physical object to raise forearms and
| contort wrists over.
| patrickkidger wrote:
| Likewise, spending another comment just to agree. Both on
| the low profile and the low travel distance.
|
| I've tried low-profile chocs and they still have too much
| travel! But I'm stuck with them as split keyboards are
| important for me just for the usual collection of wrist
| health reasons.
|
| So I'm just waiting for Apple to make a split keyboard I
| guess :)
| maratc wrote:
| M1242 but it has too much travel by modern standards.
| AnthonBerg wrote:
| I have sincerely been considering a bandsaw and a
| soldering iron! To find out how hard it is to split a
| keyboard that's already in one piece and have it remain
| working.
| wildrhythms wrote:
| Every few years I try a mech keyboard, but I always come back
| to the Magic Keyboard. It's just way more comfortable, quiet,
| and I feel like my fingers are more nimble and less strained
| when I use it.
| SparkyMcUnicorn wrote:
| If you wanted to try again, take a look at the Nuphy Air75 v2.
| Maybe with the Aloe or Cowberry switches.
|
| I feel like you can always find a mechanical that you like, no
| matter how particular you are. It's just whether or not you
| want to go down the rabbit hole.
| mmphosis wrote:
| It's a very preferential opinion because keyboards can be
| such a personal thing. I used the Nuphy Air75 v2 for a week,
| and it is the best keyboard that I've ever used. I really
| like that particular layout: Ctrl Opt Cmd,the arrow keys
| tucked into the right Shift key and the Del key just to the
| right of the Backspace key.
| https://nuphy.com/products/air75-v2?variant=40635218133101
| maratc wrote:
| Stuffing things to the right of the Enter key? So the Enter
| key is not "in the vertical middle of the right-most area"
| anymore? This would mean I can't position my finger
| _reliably_ over the Enter key anymore, and would need to
| either _guess_ or _look_?
|
| That would be a hard "No" for me (with an addition of "Why
| would _anyone ever_ want to use that? ", but I understand
| that tastes differ).
|
| P.S. And don't even get me started on the arrow keys
| smashed into the rest so not only Enter/Backspace/Right
| Shift positioning is gone for me but the arrow keys
| positioning is gone too.
|
| P.P.S. If people like it it's fine, not everything in the
| world should be conforming to my personal taste, but that
| picture where they have the keyboard positioned over the
| MacBook keyboard and the top of the trackpad (and a mouse
| to the side) just leaves me completely flabbergasted.
| mplewis wrote:
| Why are you picking your hands up to hit the enter key?
| Use your pinkie. It doesn't move.
| maratc wrote:
| My pinkie is what I use for Backspace, Enter, and Right
| Shift. It resides half on the aluminum, half on plastic.
| Plastic is a bit taller, and aluminum is a bit cooler --
| if I feel that, I know it's in the right spot
| horizontally. When I move it for an occasional apostrophe
| (e.g. a moment ago for typing "it's"), I need to put it
| back in the right position. With an additional set of
| keys on the right, I can't position it properly without
| looking at the keyboard.
| ako wrote:
| I also use an Nuphy air 75, it's really nice. Would upgrade
| to a mechanical, 75%, low profile, split, Hall effect,
| wireless, kmq-via keyboard but haven't found it yet...
| SparkyMcUnicorn wrote:
| Indeed, that does not appear to exist. NuPhy Air75 HE is
| probably closest, but it's not split.
|
| https://keeb-
| finder.com/keyboards?ms_layoutSize=75%25%2COthe...
| Tempest1981 wrote:
| > Wish there was one with standard/Windows keys
|
| Same. Anyone find a low-travel non-mushy keyboard for Windows?
| Ideally with spacing between every 4 function keys?
| analog31 wrote:
| I'm quite happy with Dell wireless keyboards, that I got as
| cast-offs. One is a KM7321W. A drawback is that their
| peripheral manager (which allows you to do things like
| reassign keyboards and mice to the little dongles) only seems
| to run on Dell machines. They've also got Bluetooth.
|
| If nothing else, they come with Dell machines, so if you're
| in a typical corporate environment, somebody might have one
| and let you try it.
| cuanim wrote:
| I recommend trying out Redragon Horus K261, it took a while to
| get used to but I like it a lot now. It's a low profile keyb.
| nerdjon wrote:
| I agree with this... mostly.
|
| A couple times I have tried doing some engineering related task
| on my desktop with a mechanical keyboard and it just felt
| wrong. It felt like I was moving my fingers too much. Kinda the
| same if I do any amount of serious typing.
|
| On the flip side though, the couple of times I have tried
| gaming on a laptop it also felt wrong.
|
| So I have come to view keyboards the same way I view gaming
| controllers, it all depends on what I am doing and I will use
| the best input method for a particular task/game/etc.
| maratc wrote:
| Agreed 100%. The best keyboard for me is the one on my MacBook.
| It adds a grand total of 0 dollars to the cost of my system,
| and a grand total of 0 grams to the weight of my backpack. It's
| there for me when I stand, when I sit on a sofa, or when I
| check something on an occasional train. It needs no cables, and
| its batteries are never empty. The distance between the
| keyboard and the pointing device control area is so short that
| I don't need to move much when switching between the keyboard
| and the pointing device; I can also position the hand in a
| manner where some fingers can type at the same time that other
| fingers can control the pointing device.
|
| It doesn't help that most mechanical keyboards also start by
| tinkering with the layout, for reasons I can't even begin to
| understand. For example, I don't _look_ at my keyboard much,
| relying on fingers to position themselves, and on some tactile
| feedback from the keyboard. Arrow keys, for instance, are these
| with some _negative space_ above them, so my fingers can use
| that negative space to nail the position. Most mechanical
| keyboards just slam the arrow keys into the bulk of all the
| others, so if I use that I need to look at the keyboard every
| time I want to use the arrow keys. (There was some unfortunate
| period in Apple 's history where they made the left and right
| arrow keys full-size and eliminated the negative space,
| rendering that keyboards harder to use for me; I skipped these
| machines until they got back to sanity.)
| maeil wrote:
| > the Apple Magickeyboard b/c it's exactly like a laptop and
| clicky
|
| I'm being super pedantic, but it's not, the switches and
| especially keycaps are different from what they use in e.g. a
| Macbook Air (and not just in size). For 99% they'll be close
| enough, but for me this makes the magic keyboard a no-go.
|
| I'm still looking for the holy grail, an external keyboard
| that's a near copy of the Macbook keyboard. I'd be willing to
| spend $500+ on it, but haven't found anything. Or, similarly, a
| keyboard that is even softer and lower travel than the Macbook
| keyboard. Nothing seems to have a similar actuation profile. I
| once found a website that showed actuation profiles through
| graphs, where you could pick from dozens of switches - none of
| them had a similar profile. Wonder why, is it hard to make? Is
| there really no market? Patents?
| 972811 wrote:
| have you tried the logitech mx keys mini? it's really similar
| for me
| casenmgreen wrote:
| I hear insanely positive reviews of Hall effect, on the basis of
| being able to have different key behaviours _depending how far
| down you press the key_.
|
| So simple example, in a game, walk is a half press and run is a
| full press.
|
| You could imagine also semi-colon a half press and full colon
| from a full press.
| jsheard wrote:
| While you _can_ assign multiple actions to one key with hall
| effect, the biggest benefit (for gaming at least) is what they
| call rapid trigger actuation. The idea is that instead of the
| key triggering and releasing at a specific point in its travel,
| it reacts to a _change in direction_ so you can instantly
| switch from pressed to released or vice versa at any point in
| the keys travel.
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| I've been eyeing a Hall effect board, but having used
| Swiftpoint Z mouse which has that pressure-based activation on
| several buttons, I must admit it's the kind of feature that's
| good on paper.
|
| At least for me, it's pretty hard to consistent reproduce "half
| press" and "full press" and if I wanted to do a "long press" I
| can easily set it up in QMK for any mechanical keyboard
| minimaxir wrote:
| With hall effect keyboards you can set the starting actuation
| of a "half press".
|
| e.g. a start actuation of 0.5mm and full press of 3.0mm gives
| enough room to avoid false positive full presses.
| AnthonBerg wrote:
| I just want one to use as a MIDI keyboard.
|
| I'm a tracker kid. Jeskola Buzz ftw. Give me velocity-sensitive
| QWERTY and I will finally be complete.
| Bluestein wrote:
| > velocity-sensitive QWERTY
|
| Gosh. Would have never considered such a thing ...
|
| PS. Also, perhaps, coupled with some sort of OSD-autocomplete
| based on key press velocity ...
|
| ... could be interesting just for typing. Messy, but
| interesting ...
| d12345m wrote:
| Yes! Also, if I could use a rotary encoder knob to input midi
| cc information, I'd be happy.
| __turbobrew__ wrote:
| > velocity-sensitive QWERTY
|
| I would love to have a keyboard where if you hit the switches
| hard it automatically capitalizes the character. Then those
| late night nerd rages will be naturally in all caps as the
| switches are slammed in fury.
| minimaxir wrote:
| I am extremely happy with the new Keychron K2 HE
| (https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-k2-he-wireless-
| ma...) and am surprised hall effect keyboards didn't get
| mentioned in the original post. Even if the advantages are more
| gamer-oriented, setting low actuation distances and getting
| immediate keypress response is also a productivity plus, after
| getting practice to avoid making typos when you'd normally lay
| your fingers on other keys.
|
| The one-key-multiple-actions is useful but also does require
| some muscle memory tweaks.
| casenmgreen wrote:
| Ah, Keychron.
|
| I looked at getting one of theirs.
|
| The web-site is insanely confusing and completely fails to
| explain the differences between keyboards. It took _two days_
| of work to figure out what was going on and how keyboards
| varies and so which model I actually wanted.
|
| I also found their site condescending and annoying - stupid
| banners which were permanently present on product pages on
| every little keyboard image saying I can't remember what now
| - something like "selling quickly so buy now". They're not
| there any more, far as I can see, so I can't check. Maybe
| someone else remembers them?
| minimaxir wrote:
| Granted, you can get it at Best Buy/Amazon if you're not a
| fan of the Keychron site:
| https://www.bestbuy.com/site/keychron-k2-he-75-custom-
| wirele...
|
| Unfortunately the world of mechanical keyboards is indeed
| that nuanced.
| tmtvl wrote:
| I dunno, I bought a KeyChron K10 Pro a couple of months ago
| and I found it pretty easy to look for the things I wanted
| (2 super keys, 100% layout).
| drillsteps5 wrote:
| Keychron keyboard was the only one I decided to return when
| I had this hobby (I bought maybe 4 or 5 total). I believe
| it was Q-series from about 2020/2021. It was either full or
| slightly smaller but did not work well with Linux, and was
| inexplicably missing ScrollLock button (which incidentally
| is a hotkey used to switch devices on my KVM). I mean, the
| button was there, but had a different function and I wasn't
| able to make it work.
|
| Looks like the ones listed currently are compatible with
| Linux (still missing the ScrollLock though), just take your
| time to review before buying something that might not work
| with your setup.
| vunderba wrote:
| Whenever I think about buying one, I can't find one that's got
| a simple way to have it detect as a game controller so that I
| can easily read the actuation force or a velocity when a user
| presses a key.
|
| If there was a simple way to do this, it would make a really
| fun experimental input peripheral tool.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| Analog pushbuttons tend not to have much success. The original
| Street Fighter for instance could select between
| light/medium/heavy attacks based on how hard you pushed
| buttons. It didn't last long before they got back to the
| familiar 6 button layout with simple switches.
|
| The Playstation 2 had analog pushbuttons, essentially no one
| used them. Even analog triggers are mostly used as simple
| switches. Apple discontinued force touch too.
|
| There is an advantage to Hall effect sensors for gaming
| keyboards though. It is that they don't have a set actuation
| point and it allows for a feature called "rapid trigger",
| greatly improving reactivity and tapping speed. It is
| particularly important for games like OSU!
| moondev wrote:
| My dream is for the following:
|
| - low profile hall effect switch - mx stems - tactile - quiet
| or almost silent - adjusting the actuation actually adjusts the
| travel
|
| So the last item you could set up an ultra "short throw" switch
|
| I have gotten close by making a frakenswitch of multiple
| switches, but would be amazing to programmatically create this
| hummerbliss wrote:
| I use split keyboards and finding a mechanical split keyboard
| without the ortho linear configuration seem to be hard. I just
| want a mechanical split keyboard with hot swappable keys with
| staggered (normal) keyboard.
| baumy wrote:
| I bit the bullet and got used to column staggered layouts but I
| feel your pain. Some options that I found when I was down this
| rabbit hole:
|
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/ (my personal favorite)
|
| https://keeb.io/products/cepstrum-keyboard-pre-built
|
| https://keeb.io/products/quefrency-keyboard-pre-built
|
| https://keeb.io/products/sinc-keyboard-pre-built
|
| https://dygma.com/pages/dygma-raise-2
|
| https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q11-qmk-custom-me...
| jsheard wrote:
| Another one if you're up for a project to put it together:
| https://nullbits.co/snap/
| Forricide wrote:
| I use a Cepstrum (bought a kit + switches + keycaps and put
| it together; there's no soldering required, so it's quite
| easy). I never 3D printed tenting, so it's not quite perfect
| for normal typing, but for gaming it's fantastic - I don't
| think I can go back to non low-profile switches.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Does the ultimate hacking keyboard have some kind of
| encryption to provide security/privacy for wireless
| connections? I've not used a wireless keyboard before.
| wlesieutre wrote:
| Give the UHK a look
|
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Does the ultimate hacking keyboard have some kind of
| encryption to provide security/privacy for wireless
| connections? I've not used a wireless keyboard before.
| mondalaci wrote:
| Yes, the UHK 80 uses BLE security level 4.
| Symbiote wrote:
| I reformatted an existing list of split keyboards into a
| gallery some time ago: https://aposymbiont.github.io/split-
| keyboards/ -- you can filter for "traditional" layout.
|
| I've not been actively keeping the site up-to-date. I merge PRs
| every so often, but I'm not following Reddit/Discord/etc to add
| new keyboards.
| sockbot wrote:
| Kinesis makes regular layout split keyboards.
| muststopmyths wrote:
| I own a freestyle RGB split keyboard and it's the best I've
| used since the OG Microsoft Natural kyboards for ergonomics.
|
| They're also comparatively better priced than others of its
| kind.
| snozolli wrote:
| _best I 've used since the OG Microsoft Natural kyboards_
|
| The Microsoft Natural keyboards were an ergonomic
| nightmare. The cheap, sliding post keys would have varying
| resistance depending on how close to the center your finger
| landed, and how vertically you applied pressure.
|
| Also, the keys were arranged over a hump. The dished design
| of a Kinesis has much better ergonomics.
| Groxx wrote:
| Kinesis generally makes good stuff, and this one has normal
| cherry MX switches so you've got access to nearly any keycap
| you want: https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/freestyle-pro/
| wellthisisgreat wrote:
| keeb.io keyboards are the best for that kind of thing. I ended
| up going the ortho route and designed my own keyboard (I needed
| extra columns as all the ergo split orthos end at ; key)
|
| But before that I bought all the non-ortho splits (Kinesis,
| Goldtouch, etc.)and keeb.io were by far the most versatile. I
| recommend Quefrency for compact layout (my fav is V3 where you
| could still customize the bottom row) and Sinc for regular
| size. I used Quefrency when traveling and Sinc in the office.
| Happy to answer any questions!
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| Any reason to not go with column-stagger? It felt good
| immediately after a decade on traditional row-stagger
| keyboards.
| ashton314 wrote:
| The most important thing to look for (imo) is _programmability_.
| You want a board that supports QMK or ZMK firmware. This lets you
| set up stuff like mod-tap, macros, mouse keys, etc. Mod tap is my
| favorite thing ergonomics-wise: v and m act as shift when held,
| normal letters when tapped. Really takes the strain off my
| pinkies. I also like having a navigation layer: hjkl in this
| layer act like vim-layout arrow keys.
|
| I use a ZSA Moonlander. Best investment ever.
| mikae1 wrote:
| _> The most important thing to look for (imo) is
| programmability._
|
| This. In Plasma I swap some keys, but when I switch to TTY the
| keys are not swapped. Frustrating. This should clearly be done
| at hardware/firmware level.
| wongogue wrote:
| Have you tried Kmonad?
| KetoManx64 wrote:
| Check out keymapper, it let's you rebind keys and intercepts
| keystrokes before the application receives them:
| https://github.com/houmain/keymapper
| Klathmon wrote:
| As someone who switches between macos and windows on a daily
| basis, custom keyboard firmware has been such a game changer!
|
| QMK can auto detect the OS and can easily remap some keys
| based on it, and since it's baked in the firmware it'll work
| with any program on any machine I plug it into!
| eviks wrote:
| I think physical ergonomics is still way more important (so
| staggered splits with thumb cluster or even gloves)
|
| So even with bad firmware you could move shift to a thumb key,
| which is better than V
|
| But even with all the programmability you wouldn't be able to
| overcome the rsi-inducing design of the regular block when
| typing regular letters
| XorNot wrote:
| The Logitech K740 is hands down my favourite keyboard ever, but
| it's out of production.
|
| The problem is the replacement is wireless and much thicker to
| accommodate that.
|
| I tried the Logitech G915 but I like a full-size keyboard, they
| put the stupid "G" keys on it and it completely ruins the
| ergonomics for me.
| throwup238 wrote:
| I hate the G915. I didn't realize it before I bought one but
| my left hand indexes off of left CTRL and that extra column
| of G keys destroys my ability to use the keyboard because I'm
| always one column off.
| tuffff wrote:
| Oh hi, another Moonlander connoisseur!
|
| I love mine. The layout, the adjustments, the thumb cluster,
| the firmware. I put the navigation onto asdf to have a
| numblock-layer under my right hand.
|
| Only negative is my cat managed to break the rather flimsy
| plastic around the thumb cluster screw and I had to lay it flat
| until I put something more solid under it to stabilize.
| jwr wrote:
| Another good option is one of the UHK (Ultimate Hacking
| Keyboard) keyboards -- I've been using them for years now and
| I'm very happy with them. The huge customizability is a big
| plus for me, especially as I use multiple operating systems:
| the ability to quickly switch the keyboard to generate Linux-
| friendly sequences (for things such as moving windows or
| switching between workspaces) makes life much easier.
|
| https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com
| Findecanor wrote:
| In addition, get QMK with Via[0] or Vial[1] support compiled
| in! Then you could edit the keyboard configuration in a web
| browser (that supports WebUSB and WebAssembly), and you don't
| have to compile and flash the firmware every time you want to
| make a change.
|
| 0: https://www.caniusevia.com/
|
| 1: https://get.vial.today/
| yosef123 wrote:
| That is true, however, one thing to keep in mind, is that
| these tools like Via / Vial, will always be limited compared
| to a fully fledged programming language like C with and its
| QMK framework. Something that I only realized after the fact.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| The moonlander looks a bit intimidating. How long did it take
| to transition from a standard kb?
| sbrother wrote:
| I'm sure plenty of people had no trouble -- but personally I
| bought one after a shoulder surgery hoping I could use it to
| type without having to move my hands together, and I failed
| to ever get to the point where I could comfortably type with
| it. After trying for a couple weeks, I bought a Keychron Q11
| QMK -- this is also split but with an otherwise standard
| layout -- and had no issues learning it. I actually still use
| it on my primary workstation even though I can physically use
| a normal keyboard.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Yeah, staggered rows of keys is what my muscle memory knows
| and whay I wouldn't mess with it. Maybe for new generations
| who don't want to wear our baggage but are these
| standardized yet?
| randmeerkat wrote:
| It's a disservice to have a guide to mechanical keyboards that
| doesn't mention the ErgoDox EZ: https://ergodox-ez.com/
| jszymborski wrote:
| Idk if I agree as split keyboards is likely not what folks have
| in mind, but I will say that I absolutely love my ErgoDox EZ.
| randmeerkat wrote:
| > Idk if I agree as split keyboards is likely not what folks
| have in mind...
|
| The article literally mentions a mechanical split keyboard,
| without mentioning the ErgoDox.
| jszymborski wrote:
| That's fair! That said it was a fairly accessible one that
| could turn into a (mostly) normal keyboard, which feels
| like the more relevant option to the audience this article
| was geared to.
| balls187 wrote:
| I had to switch to the ergodox after my RSI came back. I had
| been using regular keyboards for quite some time.
|
| Once you get the customizations dialed in, it's fantastic.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| I have used several inexpensive Apple-keyed mechanical keyboards.
| My random observations:
|
| Buckley Springs (e.g. IBM Model M -type, Unicomp) are absolutely
| the best _keyfeel_ , but they just won't last longer than the
| keyboard's warranty (probably nowhere near as long, YMMV). They
| are obnoxiously loud (similar to my electric Smith Corona Coronet
| typewriter). Simple keystrikes above 100wpm often result in
| blown-out springs -- I have thrown away my last Unicomp keyboard
| (after spring/warranty failures).
|
| _das_ keyboard (brown>blue>red) is heavenly, my daily-drivers (I
| own three, identical). Just a little bit louder than an OEM Apple
| keyboard, and always responds as depressed.
|
| The worst tactile keyboard I've ever used (non-mechanical, but
| physical buttons): mid 2010's Apple Laptop "butterfly" keys,
| which fail spectacularly (to crickets from Apple).
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I had a model M that was built in 1993 that I used until 2016.
| The main thing you need to do is clean it once in a while. I
| have a newer Model M today that I got last year and I doubt it
| will last as long.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| Thanks for sharing your experience, very similar to mine.
|
| My IBM Selectric II has buckling springs, but the ball/strike
| isn't fast enough to keep up with my typing... so the keys
| don't get abused nearly as much (never had a keyspring break
| on this typewriter).
|
| My honest assessment of Unicomp's newer buckling springs: you
| need to use a more-durable metal [see 80's/90's versions, for
| comparison). The springs seems to fail more from fatique than
| force... which is almost-certainly a _materials science_
| deficiency.
| ink_13 wrote:
| I dunno about that, my Model M from 1989 is still going strong.
| I've been waiting for it to fail for a decade at this point so
| I can upgrade to something more modern, but I find I'm not
| interested in giving it up prematurely.
| ProllyInfamous wrote:
| These original IBM models were much more durable than current
| Unicomp output. I suspect it comes down to the modern metal
| composition of the spring [being different than 80's
| versions].
|
| See somebody else's similar experience, below.
|
| >I've been waiting for it to fail for a decade at this point
| so I can upgrade
|
| Yours must have been _one of the good ones_ =D
| NotYourLawyer wrote:
| You got a lemon of a Model M. They generally last a very long
| time.
| thangalin wrote:
| No mention of Unicomp.
|
| https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/UB4041A
|
| They stopped selling quiet touch rubber membrane versions.
| Perhaps the Clickety-M buckling springs just aren't the same
| without the click?
|
| https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/QTRD
| Uvix wrote:
| The rubber dome ones didn't have buckling springs. They were
| "traditional" mass-market keyboard tech in the Model M form
| factor.
| 3pm wrote:
| I think that Model M (Unicomp/Lexmark) was a cost cut for Model
| F. Just recently, a company resurrected true Model F:
| https://www.modelfkeyboards.com/
| ridgeguy wrote:
| As I've aged, I've developed kinetic tremor. In typing, this
| shows up as missing my intended target key. The error most
| commonly presents as hitting two keys at once because my ability
| to hit only within a defined x,y envelope at the keyboard plane
| has declined. Analyzing my typos, my intended key gets most of my
| finger, with adjacent keys getting tripped by ~10% - 20%, i.e.,
| by the edge of my finger.
|
| I would love to find a keyboard that has keys at the usual pitch
| (I'm usually on Apple products), but that are smaller targets. I
| think this would result in fewer "out-of-bounds" adjacent key
| strikes. I've searched for such, no results so far. Any
| recommendations gladly received, thanks.
| seltzered_ wrote:
| Perhaps designing some smaller keycaps could help?
| jsheard wrote:
| Maybe you'd benefit from a different keycap profile? There's a
| bunch of options for the standard MX-type mechanical switches,
| some of which are "spherical" where the contact area is concave
| and relatively small.
|
| https://i.imgur.com/f8EJnC7.png
|
| Cherry and OEM are the default keycap style, while SA, XDA and
| DSA are examples of spherical. There aren't many keyboards
| which come with spherical keycaps out of the box, but you can
| easily buy a keycap set separately and install it on any MX
| keyboard.
| thereisnospork wrote:
| Could also go full psycho and go keycap-less for the truly
| minimal target. Costs nothing but time to try anyway.
| ridgeguy wrote:
| Thanks for this. You and speerer have given me the idea to
| get clear plastic near-hemispheres to glue onto my keycaps.
| KB illumination will still show, and the key target area will
| be less than half its current value. Much obliged!
| MetaWhirledPeas wrote:
| Some tiny rubber dome feet from your local hardware store
| would do this but would probably slip off. Might be worth a
| try.
|
| Anecdote: I have MT3 key caps and they have a more distinct
| concavity than my SA key caps.
| cenamus wrote:
| Would be great as a first try, and you can always
| superglue them on securely
| speerer wrote:
| Just a thought - Circular keycaps exist, and by definiton have
| more space between them. They presumably have the same
| _minimum_ gap at the left and right, though, so might not work.
|
| https://keycapsnation.com/products/round-keycaps
| bb88 wrote:
| There's a recent trend of people designing custom keyboards for
| their own accessibility needs. So this is a random thought, no
| idea if it would work.
|
| A couple of popular keyboard firmwares are open source. I'm
| thinking it could be possible to reject two neighbor keys which
| are struck within the same 10 millisecond window.
|
| IOW, if you're on a qwerty keyboard, if R and T are both hit at
| the same time, don't send the keystrokes to the computer.
|
| QMK and KMK are popular keyboard firmwares. QMK is C based, and
| KMK is CircuitPython based.
| 0xDEADFED5 wrote:
| A few fancy keyboards with magnetic switches (I'm using a
| SteelSeries one) let you set the activation distance. Maybe
| trying one and maxing out the activation distance would work
| for you?
| nikau wrote:
| Likely best to get old 80s style narrow top key caps and high
| force switches.
|
| Ibm Model m or a keyboard with mx green switches.
| lawn wrote:
| You might have success with choc switches as they can be placed
| closer together than MX style switches.
| Findecanor wrote:
| I think you've missed the point. The poster wants the pitch
| to stay the same, but have more gaps between key surfaces.
| lawn wrote:
| Ah, my bad.
|
| I guess the best way would be to design your own keyboard
| and add extra spacing. It may sound daunting but it's not
| too difficult honestly.
| breckenedge wrote:
| Choc switches (18mm x 17mm) will give you 2mm-4mm more gap
| if used in a standard MX layout (19mm x 19mm). Some custom
| keyboards (ex: Lily58 Pro) accommodate both switches.
| n0n0n4t0r wrote:
| For some time I could only type correctly with the Logitech
| k740, but it's discontinued now. I don't know why, but I can
| type on another (french) mechanical keyboard.
|
| Maybe the successors line the MX master have what made magic
| for me: an important bevel. I invite you to try it out
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| All that and a single paragraph about ergonomic split keyboards?
| What a shame. Imo, the main reasons to get into mech keyboards
| are customization and programmability. This subreddit is a good
| starting point: https://www.reddit.com/r/ErgoMechKeyboards/
| mlloyd wrote:
| Thanks for this! I use a Perrix 835 and I'm quite happy with it
| except that the keys are rubbing raw and I need new key caps.
| But I'm always looking to trade up if possible.
| pabloescobyte wrote:
| There's a whole world of custom split keyboard options out
| there that use switches where it's super easy to buy
| replacement keycaps. You can get keycaps made of PBT which
| are long-lasting and have a very high "rub" factor so you
| shouldn't have to worry about rubbing them raw for a very
| long time.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| Yes! I don't really understand the appeal of mechanical
| keyboards. I mean sure, they're a step up from cheap-ass
| rubber-dome defaults, so it's worth people discovering there
| are _options_.
|
| But for me, most mechanical keyboards are downright painful to
| use. The standard rectangular layout is bad for my wrists, the
| keypress depth is bad for my fingers, clicks are just plain
| annoying.
|
| Perhaps decades of keyboard use has worn my wrists and fingers
| down or helped me define what I wanted, but it's split low-
| profile or bust.
|
| And there's a dearth of such options on the market. Slowly
| rising, but a paltry fraction of the overall
| "mechanical"/custom keyboard market, especially as it comes to
| keycaps!
|
| Maybe I should just grab the bull by the horns and mod a
| Microsoft Sculpt to be wired, whose only downside is unreliable
| wireless.
|
| /rant
| eviks wrote:
| There are non-clicky keys!
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| oh yeah, in fact I find it hilarious that clicky keys just
| have an extra lever just for the click sound. It's not part
| of the actuation mechanism! I have a Giant Kailh from
| Novelkeys which is interesting to see the construction of a
| switch.
| eviks wrote:
| indeed, of all the things to preserve from the bad
| designs of the past...
| fernmyth wrote:
| I'm quite happy with my Perixx Periboard 335 replacing the
| Microsoft Ergo Sculpt. Standard layout, semi-split, tented,
| low (-ish) profile, mechanical switches, wired.
|
| Took me a lot of searches to find something meeting my
| requirements
| motorest wrote:
| > But for me, most mechanical keyboards are downright painful
| to use. The standard rectangular layout is bad for my wrists,
| the keypress depth is bad for my fingers, clicks are just
| plain annoying.
|
| I think you're conflating things. The "mechanical" in
| "mechanical keyboard" refers to the key switches. That's it.
| Then you have unrelated traits such as customization,which
| can express in using fancy/functional keycaps, feel/keypress
| experience, and whatever you can imagine and throw at a
| keyboard. None of your complains refer to mechanical
| keyboards in particular.
| AceJohnny2 wrote:
| My point is that the majority of the mechanical keyboard
| scene/market is occupied by very traditional (if cut down,
| in the case of the Any% ones) layout and key types.
|
| For a scene that is so into customization, it's
| disappointing how much it sticks to bad choices.
| pabloescobyte wrote:
| It's an article written by a mainstream site so I wasn't really
| expecting them to talk about split keyboards at all but I agree
| wholeheartedly.
|
| I went from a full size to a 40% keyboard to an ortholinear and
| now use a low-profile split keyboard as a daily driver.
|
| IME it's so much better for ergonomics with a proper desk setup
| and seating/posture with the split halves shoulder width apart.
| Wireless is a great benefit as well if you swap between
| desktops and laptops.
|
| Open source firmware like ZMK and QMK make it trivial to use
| splits with Linux, mac OS and Windows and for any environments
| where the OS is locked down and software installation is
| required.
| mastazi wrote:
| Are there split keyboards that preserve the standard layout of
| the home/end/pgup/pgdown cluster? Due to my usage patterns, not
| having that is a deal breaker for me. As an example, with
| rectangular keyboards my only choices are tenkeyless or full
| size, because they preserve the home cluster. Are there
| equivalents in the split keyboard world? All I'm seeing in that
| subreddit are smaller keyboards that lack the home cluster,
| that's why I ask.
| WesleyLivesay wrote:
| I think the Ergodox ez does those keys better than a standard
| keyboard because they are split between the two thumb
| clusters in the standard layout. Don't even have to move my
| hands to hit any of the four keys. It was one of the things I
| was looking for in a keyboard.
| 3eb7988a1663 wrote:
| Does seem like a white whale. Nearly all of the split
| keyboards want to do _something_ different. I just want to
| stop scrunching my shoulders and space out my arms. Give me a
| fully traditional keyboard with all of the keys, just with a
| split down the middle.
|
| My non-QMK keyboard has a horrendous home+end location, which
| I only realized after I acquired the thing. I did not realize
| how much I rely on those keys in normal programming.
| adrian_b wrote:
| For a very long time and until now, there have been models
| of Microsoft Ergonomic Keyboards, with all the classic PC
| keys, just with a split layout of the keys.
|
| I have used such keyboards for many years and I have been
| content with them, even if a couple of years ago I have
| switched to a more compact completely split keyboard,
| without a separate digit pad (for 2 reasons, a closer
| position of the pointing device and easier transport in my
| luggage, due to its smaller total size, to be able to also
| use it instead of the non-ergonomic laptop keyboard).
| eviks wrote:
| Why not have home/end near home row with a right thumb
| modifier instead?
| beacon294 wrote:
| The Q14 preserves some similar placement but not all. The Q13
| has 4 configurable keys in the top right.
|
| https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q14-max-alice-
| lay...
| delecti wrote:
| I can't vouch for its quality, but this has the full standard
| layout of those buttons (plus insert/delete).
| https://www.amazon.com/EPOMAKER-Mechanical-Swappable-
| Program...
|
| I've also really enjoyed my Keychron Q11. It only has 5 of
| those keys (I remapped them a bit because I find "end" more
| useful than "insert"), and have adjusted quite easily.
| Relative to the default, I've got Home/End where Ins/Del are,
| Del for PgUp, and PgUp/Dn where it has PgDn/Home. That was
| all painless to change in the mapping tool.
| https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q11-qmk-custom-
| me...
| lelanthran wrote:
| > Are there split keyboards that preserve the standard layout
| of the home/end/pgup/pgdown cluster?
|
| There used to be. I have a Microsoft keyboard[1] that works
| just fine using a PS2 <-> USB connector. Unfortunately I lost
| the PS2 <-> USB connector (which, IIRC, was an active
| converter, not a passive one) so I don't use it any more.
|
| I use a standard mechanical keyboard with the standard US
| layout, and have not noticed any discomfort after 25 years or
| daily driving the standard layout.
|
| [1] This particular one - first gen model: https://en.wikiped
| ia.org/wiki/Microsoft_ergonomic_keyboards#... - although if
| you browse that entire page you'll see that there are newer
| models.
| lawn wrote:
| Why not create a "navigation layer" where you can have your
| home/end/pup/pgdown and arrow keys, right below your fingers?
|
| That's the usual way people use these smaller keyboards, and
| it's way superior in my opinion.
| peterbecich wrote:
| Two thumbs up for the Iris keyboard, typically purchased as a
| kit: https://keeb.io/collections/iris-split-ergonomic-keyboard
| user_7832 wrote:
| I'd also add r/olkb for ortholinear keyboards and
| r/ergomechcomputers for those pushing ergo keyboards to their
| logical conclusion.
|
| Side note, the BFO-9000 looks _glorious_.
| bsnnkv wrote:
| I'm still just waiting for someone to make a higher quality
| version of the Logitech Ergo K860.
| Epa095 wrote:
| PERIBOARD-835?
| m1keil wrote:
| I don't know if it's higher quality, but kinesis recently
| released the mWave https://kinesis-ergo.com/shop/mwave/
| ilc wrote:
| I use a Svalboard now-a-days. For those looking for the modern
| Datahand... That's where it is. Same switch type, and much the
| same feel :)
|
| Disclaimer: I do volunteer firmware work on Svalboard. (vial-qmk)
| Epa095 wrote:
| Ohhh I have been low-key thinking of getting that one, but it's
| a bit expensive:-/ How do you find it? Was it hard to get
| going? Comfortable? Fast?
| jasoneckert wrote:
| Much like musicians that have dozens of musical keyboards in
| their collection, I've collected/built dozens of mechanical
| keyboards over the years. I've got ones with nearly every general
| type of switch (including Topre).
|
| I like to tell people that - as a developer - I'll spend $400+ on
| a mechanical keyboard that makes the sound I like, and then use
| it alongside $500+ noise-cancelling headphones.
|
| But all of my mechanical keyboards sit on a display shelf unused
| today as I prefer to use the Lenovo TrackPoint II keyboard for
| all of my work (including coding). It's just the best keyboard
| ever made in my opinion, and I love using it.
| sgarman wrote:
| Ten years ago I used to be really into all the mech keyboard
| stuff. Then I bought a topre realforce and have been using it
| ever since. The hobby part of the keyboards is neat but as far
| as "good" keyboard I haven't seen anything that would cause me
| to switch.
| amatecha wrote:
| same. finally got realforce R2 and I'm good. There might be
| something better for me, but I've spent enough time and money
| searching for the perfect combination of form-factor,
| switches, keycaps, materials, etc.
| danielheath wrote:
| I have broad shoulders, and find a split keyboard is
| absolutely essential to avoid scapula pain after longer
| sessions.
| KetoManx64 wrote:
| I'm not the only one!!
| SirHumphrey wrote:
| The only reason i bother with custom keyboards hobby is
| because this is the only way to get a split keyboard that
| doesn't cost 400$.
|
| They are great but very expensive- this I think is one of
| the main reasons why they are so niche.
| christophilus wrote:
| For me, it was the Vermillo in the same form factor. I love
| it.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| The sound of the keystroke is much less important than the
| feeling. The return power on stroke is also important for
| stamina reasons. That being said, I'm happy with a Model M, no
| need for fancy customizations.
| aranaur wrote:
| Ha! My Track point II hangs above my desk as a quick-to-grab
| keyboard whenever I (frequently) need to plug into a computer I
| don't normally use. Absolutely perfect for that.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| Are mechanical keyboards good for ergonomics and carpal tunnel
| and all that? Do different switches make a difference for that
| sort of thing? I've been hearing a lot about Hall effect switches
| recently - wasn't sure if that can help.
| pabloescobyte wrote:
| They can be but they are only a small part of the overall
| setup. You still need to have proper posture and pay particular
| attention to your habits.
|
| Different switches can also help depending on your typing
| habits and usecase.
|
| For me personally having less keys means less movement leading
| to significantly reduced possibility of RSI. With just 42 keys
| on my keyboard literally everything is one key away from each
| finger on home row so I can spend more time typing and mousing
| around than a traditional full size keyboard+mouse setup.
| blackeyeblitzar wrote:
| I've invested in a good table and chair. I'm now looking to
| figure out my keyboard and mouse. I've not tried the small
| keyboards because I thought the cramped space may be worse.
| But maybe that's wrong? Any specific recommendations for a
| keyboard or mouse?
| argentinian wrote:
| Vertical mouses. Like Logitech MX vertical.
| Symbiote wrote:
| From my experience and going from most to least important,
| I use:
|
| The Dvorak keyboard layout,
|
| A split keyboard (two separate halves)
|
| A tented keyboard (center raised up)
|
| A vertical mouse
|
| I haven't tried a tiny keyboard, I didn't like the idea - I
| want to press F5 or PgDn with one hand, for example.
| snozolli wrote:
| It's all very personal. Partly because _you_ will like
| certain key switches and layouts, and partly because any
| problems you may be having may not be solved by the same
| things that fixed _my_ problems.
|
| Personally, having tried a wide variety of keyboards and
| layouts (both key pattern and physical keyboard design), I
| think the biggest improvement is switching to _any_
| mechanical keyboard. Anything with Cherry MX switches will
| be a huge improvement over some cheap, sliding plastic
| keyboard from an OEM. After that, the particular type of
| switch might matter to you. Cherry Red, for example, only
| requires really light pressure. Topre switches are buttery
| smooth.
|
| For physical configuration, I personally like either an 87
| key, or I go all out with a Kinesis Advantage. The Kinesis
| saved my early career when I developed bilateral De
| Quervain's syndrome, which is tendinitis in the wrist that
| starts with the thumb. After years of this, I finally
| returned to traditional QWERTY 87 key configurations and
| haven't had a flare-up. I still think the Kinesis
| configuration (arrow keys accessible without moving the
| hands, thumbs are used for delete, enter, home/end and
| PgUp/PgDn) is ergonomically superior, but it's nice being
| able to jump on any normal QWERTY keyboard without fighting
| muscle memory.
|
| My personal favorite mouse is the Microsoft Intellimouse
| Explorer. I've heard good things about vertical mice for
| carpal tunnel.
| christophilus wrote:
| I had a bit of wrist pain a few years (5?) ago, and my
| solution was a small 10kl mechanical keyboard (from
| Vermillo) with a good wrist pad (a wooden one) and a
| vertical mouse. Haven't had a problem since. Everyone is
| different.
| kstrauser wrote:
| BTW, every ergonomics person I've talked to suggested I
| ditch all wrist pads because they but more pressure on an
| already inflamed wrist.
|
| I also got a vertical mouse a while back on a friend's
| recommendation and couldn't believe the different it
| made. My wrist was starting to hurt a lot. After a few
| days with the mouse, I was complete pain free. _For me_
| it was an instant and complete relief. I never would've
| believed it.
| lawn wrote:
| No I don't think mechanical keyboards in general are better. I
| think heavy switches (which is very common) are worse than
| regular keyboards.
|
| Light switches (Choc has some nice very light switches) is
| probably better, and of course you'd want to look at split
| keyboards, column-stagger instead of row-stagger, and tenting.
| mberning wrote:
| I do not understand the hobby around mech keyboards at all. It
| reminds me a lot of other activities/sports where the gear
| becomes more of a focus than the activity itself. Reminds me of
| photography or paintball. Dudes will have thousands of dollars of
| gear and use it 3 times a year.
| CharlieDigital wrote:
| For me, it has very practical reasons.
|
| If you work in software, you'll spend 6-10+ hours a day
| interfacing with the machine via your hands.
|
| So of course, the quality of that experience matters. Each
| person's fingers and typing styles are different to degrees so
| finding the right fit requires sampling. You often require a
| few days or even weeks to adjust and get a feel if a keyboard
| is right for you. I've had keyboards that only surfaced fatigue
| after a month of use.
|
| I've accumulated keyboards mostly in search of the perfect one
| that can prevent fatigue, pain, and injury for a job that
| requires 1/3 of my day to be attached to a keyboard.
| phito wrote:
| I do not understand my coworkers who spend 8 hours a day typing
| on a shitty membrane keyboard. It's they job and their main
| interface to the computer and they are totally oblivious to it.
| They also use no shortcuts at all. I've seen some use the mouse
| to copy/paste...
| mberning wrote:
| I don't know, unless the keyboard was truly awful I probably
| wouldn't complain and just get to work on the task at hand.
| Then again, I started typing when I was a small child, used
| what was available, and at the time there wasn't the level of
| keyboard choice there is today. Nor did I have the money to
| indulge in it if there were. I can definitely see the logic
| people employ to justify it. It's the same logic used to
| justify a nice bed, shoes, etc.
| cthalupa wrote:
| I'm up to roughly 40 boards at this point. I use two of them
| basically daily - my desktop and laptop dock.
|
| I tend to rotate them a few times a month. The hobby is about
| the gear, but the people that get really deep into it tend to
| be building them to fit a specific aesthetic - people make
| custom keycap sets, complete with graphic novelty keys, etc.,
| for all sorts of themes, from food, to anime, to space, and
| everything in between. And people design the keyboard cases for
| just as many themes. Mine sit on stands in my office as
| decoration - I enjoy looking at them the same as I enjoy using
| them.
| breckenedge wrote:
| The hobby is a spectrum. Compare r/ErgoMechKeyboards vs
| r/MechanicalKeyboards. You can easily avoid the "look how much
| I spent" part of the community.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| Me, I was forced to use a model M for several years and threw
| it to the trash the moment I realized I could plug any shitty
| membrane keyboard bought in random stores. These "vintage"
| fashions usually come and go for either unexplainable reasons
| or just flimsy warmness/feeling arguments. Like vinyl, instant
| cameras or the like. Notice in all of these one almost always
| spends thousands of dollars and yet end up with objectively
| worse sound/image reproduction. It is not nostalgia, since it
| often involves people who never used them back in the day. Or
| maybe that actually explains why they buy them.
| pnathan wrote:
| I am at the keyboard 40-80hr per week.
|
| I want a keyboard that is ergonomic and pleasant to use.
| __turbobrew__ wrote:
| Yea, there is a large portion of the MKB population which is
| engaging in consumerism as a hobby.
|
| I do think ergo keyboards can help a lot when you have RSIs or
| other physical constraints, but I think 90+% of the people who
| are MKB enthusiasts could be just as productive interfacing
| with a computer using a $20 Microsoft OEM keyboard.
|
| I use an Apple magic keyboard for work and I don't think it
| really slows me down. I could maybe see if you are a writer and
| you are outputting thousands of lines a day a good keyboard
| could make a difference, but if you are writing that many lines
| of code you should be concerned that LLMs are going to take
| your job writing boilerplate.
|
| Just give me two monitors, a stock install of Ubuntu, and any
| $20 keyboard and I can do anything.
| breakingcups wrote:
| I see soooo many recommendations online in every discussions
| about mechanical keyboards. However, what I would really need is
| a physical place, a store, a showroom, to be able to try them out
| myself. A wide range of brands and options, preferably.
|
| I'm a keyboard pleb, after originally using a Model M I just
| moved on to other regular office keyboards. I like the _idea_ of
| mechanical keyboards but I don 't know if I would actually enjoy
| them, and there's so many variations that for every complaint you
| might have about a keyboard a friend might have that you can try,
| you'll get three people saying that I should really try keyboard
| X from brand Y instead because it will change my life.
| kstrauser wrote:
| You and me both. I've had a few nice keyboards with various
| switches, but I'd love to get my hands on the ones people are
| talking about here to see how they feel _to me_. Bonus points
| of they were connected to a computer so I could gauge the whole
| experience.
| drillsteps5 wrote:
| BestBuy has _some_ on display (and you can type and try them
| out yourself), but in my area their stores have been shrinking
| in size and there's fewer and fewer things on display.
|
| Your best bet would be MicroCenter, the one near me has 10+
| various ones on display. I know not everybody is fortunate
| enough to live near MicroCenter though :(
|
| BTW none of them will change your life, it's just hobby for
| those with extra time and disposable income :)
| Bluestein wrote:
| Here's wishing one-handed _chorded_ keyboards were mainstream -
| or, at least, viable ...
| motorest wrote:
| Mechanical keyboards are nice, but what stumps me is the lack of
| support for USB hubs embedded in the keyboard. Anyone who uses
| yubikeys know the importance of having those a key stretch away,
| not to mention the convenience of being able to plug headphones
| and USB pens ok what you're already holding.
| supercoffee wrote:
| Some of the Drop branded keyboards like the Alt have a USB
| passthrough. I used to own one and I used it to plug in my
| headset dongle.
| Findecanor wrote:
| The Drop keyboards merely have two upstream ports, so you can
| select to have the cable on the left or on the right.
|
| There is no hub. If it was passthrough, the cable would be
| fixed (or use a non-standard connector), with two USB plugs
| at the host end: one for the keyboard and one for the
| passthrough. Some older gaming keyboards have such
| passthrough for USB ... and audio jacks!
| m463 wrote:
| I have a steelseries apex pro with an additional USB port. It
| doesn't have a hub, it is a separate port and the keyboard
| cable has two usb-a male plugs on the end.
|
| I remember years ago having an apple keyboard that had a usb-a
| female on the side for the mouse. It wouldn't boot up with my
| mouse though, I suspect keyboard+mouse drew too much power. I
| had to run the mouse separate.
| motorest wrote:
| The steelseries apex pro is awfully pricy for that kind of
| keyboard. For budget-minded fans, as far as I can tell so far
| the Royal Kludge RK84 is the only decent keyboard with a
| usable USB hub, but it's cheap plastic chassis and keycaps
| are quite the turnoff.
|
| Hopefully something decent shows up in the market that mixes
| the best of mechanical keyboards with the very basic user
| experience of using a laptop.
| zamadatix wrote:
| For most the "USB passthrough" section at the end covers the
| need of plugging a device and/or a headset in without needing a
| full hubs worth of devices sticking out of the keyboard.
|
| In general though the more functionally useful a keyboard would
| be the fewer options you'll find. I think a large part of it is
| many buyers are more worried about maximizing the aesthetics of
| the keyboard rather than creating a swiss army knife of a
| keyboard so that's what is easier to find.
| adrian_b wrote:
| I prefer USB ports on the monitor, which can have a higher
| speed without creating problems.
|
| Most keyboards are designed for low speed USB links, not even
| for USB 2.0. Having to replace the cheap cable normally used by
| keyboards with an expensive cable, at the great cable length
| that is desirable for a keyboard, would raise the cost with
| negligible benefits.
|
| Many PCs have additional USB 2.0 ports for slow peripherals,
| i.e. mainly for keyboards, mice or graphic tablets. A keyboard
| with a USB hub suitable for a USB memory would need to use a
| USB 3 port on the PC, occupying a port that might have been
| better used for other peripherals, while leaving unused the
| slow USB ports.
| nanook wrote:
| Why do they never make these with 4 modifier keys on the left
| side like Mac keyboards(Ctrl, Fn, Alt, Cmd)? Hate not being able
| to use muscle memory switching between my MBP and an external
| keyboard.
| zamadatix wrote:
| The standard first 3 R4 keys (control, option/alt, command/win)
| are 1.25x width while the "true" Mac layout has those at 1x
| width to prevent the spacebar from having to migrate too far to
| the right (even though it's still a bit farther right than
| normal). This means to serve the niche of fn muscle memory
| users of the niche of Mac keyboard users you not only need the
| create the custom positional layout but custom keycaps (and the
| board/firmware you build it with must support layers to do fn
| in the first place). Then when you do all of this these people
| will still probably be uninterested because it's not some
| additional niche design criteria (70% vs 100%, low profile vs
| full size, split vs not, yadda yadda) anyways. All that is to
| say, there's a lot more going against it than just
| repositioning 1 key would seem.
|
| I had a coworker who liked
| https://mechanicalkeyboards.com/products/mk-lowkey70-black.
| Basically "an external version of the MacBook keyboard with
| hotswap switches, RGB, and caps". Dunno that I've seen any full
| sized variants of the Mac layout though.
| gtani wrote:
| For anybody that's at some stage of keeb curious but overwhelmed
| by info, look up keyboard meetups in reddit subs
| /r/MechanicalKeyboards/ and /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/
|
| It's just a lot easier to ask a live human
| gtani wrote:
| you can also try a decent number at best buy and maybe other
| specialty retailers but:
|
| with the gaming oriented brands you often have to turn down RGB
| effects to make them tolerable, certain brands have switches
| that actuate high in the range of motion and it's often not
| easy to tell if the switches are soldered or have swappable
| sockets
|
| ____________________________________________
|
| also the latest/greatest in split ergos seem to be the
| svalboards, ordered a 1 finger cluster to try but have no info
| about them yet
| rifling9798 wrote:
| In our relentless pursuit of the perfect interface between mind
| and machine, we build monuments to our own discontent. Each
| click, each tactile response, each millimeter of travel becomes a
| meditation on what we seek but cannot name. We spend fortunes to
| recreate the feeling of something we've never felt, chase echoes
| of satisfaction that fade with each new acquisition, and find
| ourselves surrounded by shrines to our own restlessness. In this
| symphony of springs and switches, we are all apprentices to an
| art that has no master.
| all2 wrote:
| That's very poetic. Is there a source? From your head?
| onemoresoop wrote:
| It's an LLM generated text.
| gpi wrote:
| I have a master. Logitech MX Master
| yard2010 wrote:
| I have been addicted to using my mechanical keyboard for years
| now. It doesn't get old, I can feel the dopamine rush with
| every key stroke. It's magical.
| Y_Y wrote:
| If only Keats had had a Model M.
| Bluestein wrote:
| If only Keats had an LLM! :)
| Bluestein wrote:
| Ode on a Neural Network
|
| Thou still unraveled shape of silicon, Thou child of data
| and electric thought, Digital historian, who canst thus
| express A mathematical tale more sweetly than our prose:
| What leaf-fringed legend haunts thy tensored depths Of
| vectors or of nodes, or of both, In virtual space or
| clouded matrices? What parameters dance in what hidden
| layers? What mad pursuit? What struggle to compute? What
| matrices of backpropagation?
|
| How cold are those cold gradients, how sparse The lonely
| nodes that never can decode Their ancient patterns; and how
| blank the space Where each new epoch brings a fresh cascade
| Of weights adjusting to some distant truth That floats
| beyond our human comprehension's reach!
|
| O atrous convolution! fair display Of mathematical beauty
| born anew With every forward pass - yet still we gaze In
| wonder at thy deep complexity.
|
| Heard algorithms are sweet, but those unheard Are sweeter;
| therefore, ye soft transformers, play on; Not to the
| sensual ear, but, more endeared, Pipe to the spirit ditties
| of backprop: Fair function, beneath the nodes, thou canst
| not leave Thy gradients, nor ever can those trees
|
| Be pruned; bold Optimizer, never, never canst Thou kiss thy
| target, though thou draw'st so near! Yet do not grieve; she
| cannot fade, thy love Frozen in checkpoints time cannot
| destroy.
|
| When old age shall this generation waste, Thou shalt
| remain, in midst of other woe Than ours, a friend to human-
| kind, to whom thou say'st, "Beauty is truth, truth beauty,"
| - that is all Ye know on earth, and all ye need to know Of
| deep learning's vast and boundless dream.
| Y_Y wrote:
| Here lies one whose name was writ in VRAM
| exceptione wrote:
| Hello LLM!
| quaintdev wrote:
| This. You just can't trust anything anymore. Internet is done
| guys. Let's go back to real world.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| Or, you know, some just fucking feel better than others. But
| that's hard to comprehend for a LLM.
| singleshot_ wrote:
| > something we've never felt
|
| Speak for yourself; I had an IBM 5150 (with an external CDROM
| and the original Encarta disc) and it was lovely. The junk we
| type on today is lousy.
| ndiddy wrote:
| You can use a 5150 keyboard on a modern computer fairly
| easily, all you need is a relatively inexpensive adapter like
| this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/385607912016 . Overall I think
| the 5150 keyboard feels a lot better to type on than the
| Cherry switches and Chinese clones that the article covers.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| Adding adapters increases the delay, it won't feel the same
| singleshot_ wrote:
| I just remembered that it was actually a Collier's
| encyclopedia that we had, for full historical accuracy.
| bpye wrote:
| I've ended up settling on an old Apple Extended Keyboard II.
| I've had several modern keyboards end up dying - failing to
| register some keystrokes, whilst this thing has has been
| working for longer than my lifetime...
| BenFranklin100 wrote:
| I've been very happy with the Tex Shinobi keyboard.
| https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi
|
| The integrated TrackPoint and retro Thinkpad styling makes typing
| a breeze without ever having to lift your hand off the keyboard
| for the mouse.
| breckenedge wrote:
| I like it but not the proprietary configuration tool.
| ldjkfkdsjnv wrote:
| hhkb
| sagarpatil wrote:
| My only gripe with mechanical keyboards is there's no version
| with apple touch ID (I know the technical constraints).
| Findecanor wrote:
| There is a guy who is modding his Magic Keyboard 2 with Touch
| ID into a mechanical keyboard, with preserved touch ID
| functionality: <https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=120964.0>
| sagarpatil wrote:
| As someone who recently moved from a mechanical keyboard to apple
| keyboard, the closest thing that can imitate the mechanical key
| sound is through this macos app: https://tryklack.com/
| tehnub wrote:
| - Miryoku
|
| - BastardKB keyboard
|
| - Asymplex DES key caps
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| _I 'm sitting in my bunker, on the far side of the moon.
|
| Typing on this old clunker, ready to fire my death-rays soon!
|
| Alle Jahre wieder mach ich den neumodischen Kram nieder!_
|
| http://xahlee.info/kbd/marquardt_mini_ergo_keyboard.html
|
| https://deskthority.net/wiki/Marquardt_Mini-Ergo
|
| (Yes Yes, it has been modded meanwhile, electronically only, not
| mechanically. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector to
| PS/2 to USB, via modded early QMK. As did the others which I've
| gotten in reserve meanwhile :))
| NotYourLawyer wrote:
| Not a word about Model M or Model F keyboards. Weird, they're so
| much better than any of the stuff in this article.
| crimsoneer wrote:
| I just upgraded from my ZSA Moonlander to a Voyager for
| Christmas, and I am _so excited_.
| gsliepen wrote:
| I got my first mechanical keyboard many years ago when playing a
| game where I had to do some complicated maneuver involving
| multiple keys which I just couldn't seem to pull off, until I
| realized that my then keyboard suffered from ghosting. Seems like
| mechanical keys and N-Key Rollover just go hand in hand.
|
| I have a few now at work and home, my favorites are the Das
| Keyboard 6 Pro and the Wobkey Crush 80.
| qwerty456127 wrote:
| > Want a mechanical keyboard but don't know where to start?
|
| Not really. I enjoy membrane keyboards and want everything as
| silent as possible. Yet I want a hackable controller firmware and
| it seems these are only available with mechanical keyboards.
| mdnxjdnen wrote:
| Opti electrical are much more silent then membrane
| Klathmon wrote:
| If you do ever want to dive into the keeb firmware hacking
| world, you absolutely can build very silent mechanical
| keyboards.
|
| Between linear switches, quiet mounting options, and even
| o-rings if you have a tendency to press keys harder, you can
| get them to being only slightly louder than a MacBook keyboard
| (or maybe not louder, just different sounding)
| phito wrote:
| Mechanical keyboards are not inherently noisy
| balls187 wrote:
| I switched to EPO Sea Salt. The tactile feel without the loud
| clacky sound.
|
| My fashion designer, on the other hand, loves both the
| tactile feel and clacky sound of Kalih White Box switches.
| urxvtcd wrote:
| You might want to look into Topre switches. They are
| electrocapacitive rubber dome switches. They feel like typing
| on a cloud. I own a Leopold FC660C modded to be silent and to
| support QMK. I sometimes think about getting an ortholinear or
| split keyboard, but that rules out Topre so I'm not going to
| bother, it's just too good.
| amelius wrote:
| Is there also a guide somewhere for making your own high quality
| key caps?
| rpastuszak wrote:
| To anyone using Voyager or Moonlander on a Mac: do you have any
| tips on how to configure it? I'm messing with the default layout
| but after months of training still find it hard to use.
|
| That said, the ZSA support is just on another level compared to
| any hardware I've bought in the past decade. Incredibly
| responsive, thoughtful, and helpful. My only issue is my own
| analysis paralysis when messing with layouts, not the product
| itself.
| tmvphil wrote:
| I did some major customization for my moonlander that I use
| with Mac.
|
| https://configure.zsa.io/moonlander/layouts/ZKdVJ/latest/0
|
| I don't like using the red thumb button or the third thumb
| button, so I try to cram what I need on the first two on each
| side. That was facilitated by using "home row modifiers"
| meaning shift/Ctrl/alt/Mac keys are accessed by holding keys on
| home row.
| cthalupa wrote:
| There's a bit wrong on the keycap material side of things. You
| can't directly compare ABS to PBT in a vacuum - different
| specific blends of both are used in keycaps, for various price
| points/purposes/etc. There's also nothing preventing ABS keycaps
| from having texture.
|
| In fact, on the high end side of things, ABS doubleshot keycaps
| from manufacturers such as GMK are considered to be the gold
| standard, and PBT is often seen as the more "value" option.
| Though, I don't think this is accurate for the same reasons that
| I think the reverse is inaccurate, because you can get plenty of
| high quality PBT sets.
|
| It's a fun hobby, and the amount of customization you can get
| into to suite whatever your specific desires are is insane. I had
| never thought I would get into any sort of physical product
| design, but it's a unique enough niche that it is fairly common
| for people to design keycap sets, keyboards, etc., and get them
| built in low (300-2kish unit for keycaps, sometimes even as low
| to 10-100ish for keyboards) MOQs, and I've ended up designing 3
| different keycap sets with a friend of mine.
| rr808 wrote:
| Anyone have mechanical keyboards banned at work because of
| security risk? technically we aren't allowed to use them, but I
| can't use the $5 junk they provide us with. Its a real risk
| though I wonder how many offices enforce rules like this.
| bigp3t3 wrote:
| Custom firmware and USB hubs? Valid threat. I would allow
| reputable vendors though.
|
| I help define the policies at my current workplace and we block
| anything that isn't an hid device or purely charging (headsets,
| phones are blocked from mounting storage) . Also no non-
| computing related accessories, so no usb flash drives, mug
| warmers, or deskfans-sorry.
| zamadatix wrote:
| Most places I've worked at have at least limited USB and
| bluetooth access. On certain (typically shared or special
| purpose) machines many of the more accessible USB ports were
| even glued shut for "oh yeah, it's not going to work"
| convenience.
|
| Never had trouble getting approval for a keyboard ordered by
| the company though. Took several months one time but eventually
| it was ordered, reviewed by security, and sent to me.
| alexwasserman wrote:
| Get a doctors note explaining you have RSI and need a
| mechanical keyboard for the ergonomics. Pick the specific
| switches you need for your RSI/ergo reasons.
| jksmith wrote:
| I use the Model M for both writing beauty code and as a home
| defense weapon. Requires a conference table. Drive cubemates
| nuts.
| kstrauser wrote:
| You can get arrested for walking around with a baseball bat.
| You can carry a Model M to walk to your car on a dark night and
| no one will raise an eyebrow.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| It's not mechanical switches, but I wish the fancy keyboard folks
| would get more interested in high quality scissor switches.
| Apple's A1243, the classic wired external keyboard, is nearly
| perfect for me. I finally gave up on mechanical keyboards and
| bought a few new-old-stock Apple keyboards to last me for the
| next decade or more.
|
| The unique thing about Apple keyboards is the very low profile
| keycaps and a tiny 0.9mm travel. Matias makes some very nice
| scissor keyboards but their 2.0mm travel feels different. Also
| they don't register quite as accurately, I have a lot of miskeys
| on them.
| a12k wrote:
| This is a good article to familiarize yourself with the concepts,
| but would be great if they just listed a few keyboards that are
| top notch or popular for people to get started. Regardless, this
| is a lot of words to day that people should own either:
|
| 1. An IBM Model M keyboard, or 2. An HHKB Type S in charcoal with
| Topre switches and blank keycaps.
| pnathan wrote:
| My thoughts, as someone who focuses on tools a _lot_ -
|
| Ergonomic is a must. Anything not ergonomic should be gently
| removed from your approach.
|
| Mechanical is nice, but relates to how your personal interaction
| with your tools is. I use Cherry Blue or similar. I personally
| want to feel that click. I also learned to type on a 1940s Royal
| typewriter. Cherry Red aka Linear feels _awful_. Connect any dots
| you like there.
|
| TKL designs with f keys and arrows are ideal for emacs users imo.
| Anything less feels either for non programmers or for people who
| use keychords a good deal less. The really cranked down designs
| seem more for writers than coders- special characters are in
| layers.
|
| I have used Kinesis keyboards for a few years now. Their Edge RGB
| is _very_ nice. After an RSI episode earlier this year, I moved
| to an Advantage 360 SmartSet. I consider their SmartSet system to
| be ideal in terms of a very good meet point of configurability,
| ease of use, and reliability.
|
| Re the 360, I am not as convinced of the Ortho layout or lack of
| f-keys. The thumb keys work well.
|
| I would recommend Kinesis as a professional keyboard vendor.
|
| In any case, this becomes a personal geometry problem where your
| hands, arms, shoulders will all combine to make a physical
| keyboard better or worse. This is further fit +/- by the tools we
| use. So it's very individual. Hope my experience shared here help
| someone.
| bloopernova wrote:
| I use an Alice layout Keychron Q10 and it fits well with Emacs.
|
| https://www.keychron.com/products/keychron-q10-pro-alice-lay...
|
| I have several of the left side macro keys set to M-x, C-g and
| others. Via is very easy to use to program your keyboard, and
| full QMK is almost infinitely capable.
| drillsteps5 wrote:
| Picked up this hobby a few years ago (during Covid) and bought 3
| or 4 of these, either full-size (nostalgic for the Original from
| my youth) or TCL (when we got back to the office I wanted a
| keyboard that would fit in my backpack that was not my laptop's).
|
| Then I bought DasKeyboard 4 Pro (tactile switches) and that
| pretty much ended the hobby. It has everything, it's heavy,
| doesn't move on the desk (rubber feet), it's sturdy (its top is
| either aluminum or even steel), has 2 USB-A, very thick twisted
| USB cable, it's full size, has volume control wheel, even
| dedicated audio mute button, works with all my Windows and Linux
| boxes and the KVM. 3 years later it still looks and works like
| new. I'm a bit sad for my lost hobby but that's life I guess :)
| variadix wrote:
| For programming, I really enjoy the Corne (crkbd). Having all
| symbols and numbers on easily reachable keys is much more
| ergonomic, and the tenting helps a lot with wrist strain. I also
| have macros for stuff like moving lines around, jumping
| forward/backward, deleting entire lines, etc.
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