[HN Gopher] Carlsen disqualified from World Rapid and Blitz cham...
___________________________________________________________________
Carlsen disqualified from World Rapid and Blitz championship for
wearing jeans
Author : throwup238
Score : 179 points
Date : 2024-12-28 00:54 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.timesnownews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.timesnownews.com)
| hilux wrote:
| I was out for lunch with some friends. Came back, saw this, and
| thought "OK obviously some Onion copycat. Why is this being
| posted to Hacker News?".
|
| Apparently it's true!??
| pella wrote:
| > Apparently it's true!??
|
| 1.) "Saturday, 28 Dec 2024 00:33 FIDE statement regarding
| Magnus Carlsen's dress code breach"
| https://www.fide.com/news/3363
|
| 2.) _" Chess: Carlsen disqualified in New York after refusing
| to change out of jeans The world No 1 was defaulted from the
| World Rapid Championship and has also chosen to withdraw from
| the World Blitz saying 'it became a matter of principle'"_
|
| https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2024/dec/27/chess-carlsen-...
| ogogmad wrote:
| I think he meant that as a rhetorical question. It's
| commentary because he thinks it's Onion-worthy.
| pella wrote:
| If chess is a sport, then the mind deserves its own professional
| chess shoes
|
| _" Earlier in the day, another participant, Mr. Ian
| Nepomniachtchi, was also fined for breaching the dress code by
| wearing sports shoes. However, Mr. Nepomniachtchi complied,
| changed into approved attire, and continued to play in the
| tournament," the statement added."_
| daxfohl wrote:
| Though "Air Magnus" rolls off the tongue better than "Air
| Nepomniachtchi".
| pm2222 wrote:
| Technically he withdrew and was not forced out.
| shkkmo wrote:
| Technically he was disqualified from the rapid event and
| withdrew from the blitz event.
| searealist wrote:
| He was not. He was unmatched from round 10. He could continue
| to play after that if he corrected his attire.
| geor9e wrote:
| So the only possible way for him to be disqualified is if
| he hung around for the rest of the tournament repeating the
| same thing over and over again? Sounds like newspeak logic.
| Maxatar wrote:
| It looks like he was disqualified from one event and then
| withdrew for the other related event. He said he would change
| his pants for tomorrow but was told that he had to change
| before the start of the next game which was scheduled for
| today. When he indicated that he would not do so he was
| disqualified, ie. FIDE removed him from the schedule.
| shevis wrote:
| The dress code is pretty outdated and doesn't add anything of
| substance. Let the players be comfortable, we just want to see
| good chess!
| julianeon wrote:
| Yeah, jeans should qualify as dressy enough for a chess
| championship in 2024. It's presentable and not insulting. We
| left the 50's a long time ago.
| spoonfeeder006 wrote:
| I like watching chess videos of this guy doing online chess. I
| appreciate his being extremely down to earth and not arrogant by
| any means. Great vibes
| adamtaylor_13 wrote:
| This is dumb. But so is golf attire in my opinion.
|
| Admittedly I'm not into show for show's sake.
| molticrystal wrote:
| I think that is why some people enjoy John Daly in golfing. For
| those unfamiliar, look up him up on google images. He is known
| for usually wearing some sweat pants and smoking a cigar in
| tournament play.
| ffitch wrote:
| World Rapid and Blitz Championship downgraded itself to the World
| Rapid and Blitz Candidates Tournament. Hope sponsors are not too
| pissed.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| Maybe the World Blitz Candidates Tournament but Magnus was
| practically eliminated from contention in Rapid before this.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| The submitted article does not mention that Carlsen has a feud[1]
| with FIDE over Freestyle Chess.
|
| Reportedly he was not sure he'd even bother to show up to this
| event[2].
|
| [1]: https://www.chess.com/blog/Eternal-Pawn/chess-at-the-
| crossro...
|
| [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErKi4NcLlOc
| searealist wrote:
| Yep. He was also performing extremely poorly in this
| tournament.
| hilux wrote:
| The dress code calls for "smart business attire."
|
| The title sponsor is Google, a well-known tech company.
|
| Here's Google CEO Sundar Pichai in GQ: https://www.gq-
| magazine.co.uk/lifestyle/article/sundar-picha...
| robotresearcher wrote:
| And here he is arriving at an event with a dress code.
|
| https://static01.nyt.com/images/2023/05/04/multimedia/04even...
|
| Another event, another dress code.
|
| https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQfQwah...
|
| Edit: removed extraneous arguments. Point here is that Pichai
| observes event-specific dress codes rather than assuming that
| Google's code applies.
| hilux wrote:
| What's your point? I'm not suggesting that Sundar ALWAYS
| wears jeans and NEVER wears suits.
|
| I'm saying that it is ACCEPTABLE to wear jeans, even in a
| professional setting. Jeans are "smart business attire." (If
| the dress code were "formal," that would be something else.
| But it isn't.)
| kevinventullo wrote:
| I work at Google. I would not describe Google's dress code
| as "smart business attire".
| robotresearcher wrote:
| Jeans are not smart business attire. Google's code is
| casual, not smart business.
| searealist wrote:
| What's your point? If you find a photo of Larry Page in
| pajamas then you should be able to wear that to any Google
| event?
| hilux wrote:
| Does Larry Page regularly do business events in pajamas?
| robotresearcher wrote:
| The point is that Pichai observes the dress code
| requested by the event host.
|
| Did I make it so obscurely?
| ensignavenger wrote:
| To counter, the dress code was vague and imprecise. See
| my other comment here-
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42528218
|
| EDIT: Actually, the poster above was not accurate. The
| dress code is found here- https://www.fide.com/docs/regul
| ations/wrbc_regulations_2024_...
|
| And it was much more precise than "smart business
| attire.".
| searealist wrote:
| Nope. It explicitly disallowed jeans.
| ensignavenger wrote:
| You are correct, I have edited my comment.
| searealist wrote:
| I was not responding to you.
| dullcrisp wrote:
| Yes, obviously.
| ensignavenger wrote:
| Had a friend who sold boats for a living. One day he was at a
| business meeting where the attire was listed as "business
| attire". When one of his buddies, another salesman, showed up
| wearing shorts, a t-shirt and sunglasses, my friend made a
| snarky remark about him not getting the memo about the attire.
| His buddy responds, "I don't know what business you're in, but
| I am in the boat business."
| pm2222 wrote:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNTD_R8Scbk
|
| he chose to withdraw. he's not happy with fide anyway.
| benatkin wrote:
| He won't let the man get him down.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5ZUshzhMtc
| 7e wrote:
| Probably having an off day and intentionally disqualified
| himself.
| foobarian wrote:
| I wonder if this guy is slowly going off the deep end like a
| number of other past chess masters. He's been such a great
| example for aspiring players for a while now but I can't help but
| worry.
| JadeNB wrote:
| > I wonder if this guy is slowly going off the deep end like a
| number of other past chess masters. He's been such a great
| example for aspiring players for a while now but I can't help
| but worry.
|
| I don't know much else about him, but nothing in this story
| reads to me like someone going off the deep end. It sounds like
| someone who picked a perhaps-unfortunate hill to die on, though
| if you aren't willing to take risks to argue against silly
| rules when you're at the top of your game then when will you,
| but not someone losing his faculties.
| jhghikvhu wrote:
| Well there are other circumstances too. He didn't defend his
| classical chess champion title. He likes his alcohol.
|
| He hasn't gone off the deep end (past tense). But is it a
| process currently in progress? Only possible to say in
| hindsight but does certainly seem possible.
| devit wrote:
| Probably just burned out from chess, especially training
| the whole day for competitions.
|
| We are animals and eventually the brain will rebel against
| extreme repetitive mental effort that is perceived to be at
| least partially useless (and given he's already been the
| world champion, it's easy for part of him to think there's
| no point in training).
| iambateman wrote:
| He's fine.
| cool_dude85 wrote:
| He's one of a few extremely high profile players to publicly
| support (and maybe financially back / have a stake in?)
| Freestyle Chess, which may or may not be a venture capital-
| backed attempt to force a schism in the FIDE World Chess
| Championship.
| RandomThoughts3 wrote:
| He is shareholders of chess.com since they bought out Play
| Magnus. He is not losing it. He has competing economic
| interests to FIDE and very little interest into being
| cooperative with them more than is strictly necessary.
| iambateman wrote:
| It's a great day for the law-abiding contestants who would never
| stoop to such sloven. Justice! /s
|
| FIDE is lost in the 80's, and someone else is going to figure out
| how to make chess an entertainment sport and make a truly
| enormous amount of money.
| nomilk wrote:
| Amusing response from Carlsen:
|
| https://x.com/MagnusCarlsen/status/1872819038554148882
|
| FYI 'OOTD' == 'outfit of the day'
| Modified3019 wrote:
| I love a new anarchy chess meta
| fuzzythinker wrote:
| That's decent dress jeans too, not like some baggy, hole-y or
| sloppy jeans.
| matsemann wrote:
| Some other guy interviewed by Norwegian television also came
| out from the arbiter room, but he didn't get fined. His pants
| looked like worn jeans, but since it wasn't denim material
| (only made to look like ugly jeans) it was ok. Highlights how
| weird the rules are.
| TacticalCoder wrote:
| I used to frequent fancy private parties with people who
| mostly all had money and nobility titles (EU). Unless it was
| a ball (which I used to go to do) that had a strict dress
| code, most men had nice cars, nice shoes and... Dress jeans.
| beyondCritics wrote:
| Tasteful and elegant, but somewhat thought provoking at the
| same time.
| kevinventullo wrote:
| I wonder if there is even a single player in the tournament who
| cares about the dress code. It is hard to imagine anyone who was
| serious about chess caring about the material a player's pants
| are made of. No, I think this falls squarely in the realm of
| bureaucratic administrators who have nothing better to do than
| assert their power and maintain the illusion of a connection
| between talent (great chess players) and the trivial signaling
| games of the upper class (the style of pants one is wearing).
| JellyBeanThief wrote:
| > I think this falls squarely in the realm of bureaucratic
| administrators who have nothing better to do than assert their
| power and maintain the illusion of a connection between talent
| (great chess players) and the trivial signaling games of the
| upper class (the style of pants one is wearing).
|
| I concur except about the bureaucratic administrators. I think
| they do this because the upper class will replace them if they
| don't do the work of asserting the _upper class 's_ power.
| Modified3019 wrote:
| I'm sure there are some Type 1's present:
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SorkIX_ABCo (LocalScriptMan -
| Writing with the Enneagram: Type 1)
| ttyprintk wrote:
| The title of the dress code PDF is helpful---something like
| "proposal of Ms B Marinello".
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20200925160442id_/https://www.fi...
|
| But I wonder if another player complained to the
| administrators.
| oofabz wrote:
| Beatriz Marinello is a professional chess player who was
| Chilean Women's Chess Champion in 1980 and was vice president
| of FIDE until 2018.
| glaugh wrote:
| Possibly this is not the actual dress code? Or I'm missing
| something.
|
| 3.a. The following is acceptable for men players, captains,
| head of delegation. -- Suits, ties, dressy pants, trousers,
| jeans...
|
| 3.b. The following is NOT acceptable for men players,
| captains, head of delegation. -- Beach-wear slips, profanity
| and nude or semi-nude pictures printed on shirts, torn pants
| or jeans...
| geor9e wrote:
| Not paired for round 9, meaning he was following the dress code
| for the earlier rounds. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. Ok Magnus.
| ergonaught wrote:
| I was pretty happy he didn't cave in to this demand. He accepted
| the fine and agreed to change for the next game day.
|
| They were being belligerent.
| Brian_K_White wrote:
| A simple question. Why do people watch chess tournaments?
|
| A: To see administrators administrate.
|
| B: To see chess players play chess.
|
| Someone somewhere has lost sight of a most basic fundamental that
| everything else they may care about rests on.
| linsomniac wrote:
| C: To see well dressed people play chess.
| llm_nerd wrote:
| "At the time of his default, Carlsen had scored 5/8 and was a
| point and a half behind the leaders, with little chance of
| retaining his title."
|
| EDIT: I find it hilarious that this is downvoted. It's incredibly
| cogent to the point. If Magnus was leading the event I guarantee
| he wouldn't have pursued this distraction.
| thatswrong0 wrote:
| I've see Magnus come back from behind before. A lot.
|
| He's been fed up with FIDE for a while if you've been paying
| attention. There's a lot more to this than just his pants.
| llm_nerd wrote:
| It's an odds thing. He was unlikely to win. There are some
| very strong opponents. Could he have won? Sure. But note that
| he didn't protest the dress code at the _beginning_ of the
| event.
|
| And sure, he's "fed up" with FIDE (in the sense that everyone
| who thinks they are bigger than a league does). So why did he
| participate? If he had the purported principles, he should
| just withdraw from FIDE sanctioned events, no?
| OJFord wrote:
| > [Carlsen] it became a point of principle
|
| I think if anybody's to be commended for their principle it's
| probably the organisers? They have their dress code, he violated
| it, was warned, continued to violate it, and they enforced the
| rule despite his name.
| llm_nerd wrote:
| Precisely this. The dress code was not a secret. Once Carlsen
| had little chance of winning the event he decided to make it
| about himself with this display. No one should commend this
| selfish arrogance, and in no universe is it "principle" to
| exhibit such prima donna behaviour for attention (and to
| conveniently exit from a likely loss).
|
| Magnus is a tremendous chess player. He's also, by all
| evidence, a massive asshole, and continuously shows boorish
| behaviour and terrible sportsmanship.
| Erikun wrote:
| '[...]Carlsen said: "I said I'll change tomorrow ... but they
| said you have to change now it became a matter of principle for
| me so here we are. [...]'
|
| I can't even figure out what the principle was.
| adastra22 wrote:
| They fined/censored him. He accepted the consequence and said
| "ok, I'll change as soon as I'm back at my hotel." They then
| hit him with a second infraction, for still being out of
| dress code.
|
| I'm not a chess dress code rules lawyer, but I think the
| principle here is that the judge was power tripping and hit
| him twice for a single dress code violation.
| PokemonNoGo wrote:
| I'm sorry but now we surely have lost the meaning of the
| word censored. Now it means not getting to play chess in a
| tournament?
| chucksmash wrote:
| Perhaps they meant censure instead of censor.
| o11c wrote:
| Note especially that in many languages "censor" and
| "censure" are the same word.
| adastra22 wrote:
| I did indeed.
| astura wrote:
| >I'm sorry but now we surely have lost the meaning of the
| word censored. Now it means not getting to play chess in
| a tournament?
|
| Yes, we have. That ship has sailed long ago.
|
| But, in this context, specifically, the GP might have
| meant 'censured' instead of 'censored' and it was
| autocorrect or mental confusion.
| PokemonNoGo wrote:
| That makes more sense. Sorry about that.
| throw9383838 wrote:
| In my experience "dress code" is very selectively enforced. Men
| are expected to wear very formal dress, that may limit their
| breathing and body cooling! While women get away with tshirts,
| sweat pants and flip flops!
|
| This is sport event after all, and he is an athlete!
|
| It is like asking female athletes to wear corset and long
| dress, because that was traditional dress in Victorian England!
| sammy2255 wrote:
| Disagree. FIDE's dress code has double standards, there was a
| dude in chinos made to look like jeans and they were allowed.
| To me it seems like a very antiquated rule that needs to be
| reworked/abolished to keep up with the times.
| sapiogram wrote:
| This rule is new, by the way. There used to be no dress code
| at all, and it's become increasingly strict in the last few
| years.
| astura wrote:
| Was there a reason for implementing it?
| beyondCritics wrote:
| >This rule is new, by the way.
|
| You can't call a rule new, which is nagging them for nearly
| a decade now:
|
| https://www.chess.com/news/view/dress-code-incident-at-
| world...
| OJFord wrote:
| It's not that I think the dress code is great, I just think
| it is what it is, and the one's who can say 'it's a matter of
| principle' (and get my sympathy anyway) are the ones that
| uphold that written code of the event, and don't waive it for
| a famous participant; not the famous participant who.. just
| wants to violate it basically.
| more_corn wrote:
| The principal is "I should be allowed to wear reasonable
| everyday attire" Standing by the principle was when faced with
| an ultimatum: "Change now or else." He chose "Naw, I'll just
| leave."
| OJFord wrote:
| I understand that, and I'm saying the organisers also have
| the dress code principle, and stood by it when faced with 'oh
| but the violator is a very famous player, and this might make
| the news tomorrow'.
|
| I think they come off better, personally. I'm not saying that
| should be the dress code, he shouldn't be allowed to wear
| jeans or whatever, or even that it's bad of him to decide not
| to play rather than to play in jeans. I just don't think 'it
| became a matter of principle' is a great argument for him,
| because it just makes me think better of the organisers for
| similarly standing by theirs.
| jstanley wrote:
| If two people have conflicting principles and both choose
| to stand by their principles then they'll be in conflict,
| but you're not obliged to pick a winner.
| lenkite wrote:
| Also, this is a world rapid blitz tournament - not a
| "classical" chess tournament. Full length jeans is
| effectively business casual by today's standards. If a player
| said they made a mistake because they were late and confirmed
| that they would change their attire the next day, they should
| be fined but permitted to play with a warning.
| judofyr wrote:
| The principle here isn't about the dress code per se (Carlsen
| hasn't made much fuss about it earlier[1]), but the fact that a
| minor mistake on his part (he chose the wrong pants) is being
| punished severely. What would would be wrong with giving him a
| $200 fine and warning him he would be disqualified if he didn't
| abide by it next day? Why is it so important to change
| immediately when you're still very much dressed acceptable?
| Stressing about your clothing is not what you want to do when
| you're focused on making a come back.
|
| The reason is (according to Carlsen) of course that FIDE is
| driven by a strict adherence of <<rules>> which are defined by
| a small set of people in power. Whenever something happens they
| always say <<oh, but these are the rules>>, but the process for
| changing the rules is very one-sided and power driven. This was
| the straw that broke the camel's back. Yet another example of a
| silly unnecessary rule.
|
| [1]: In an earlier WC he got stuck in traffic and arrived in
| ski clothing, but changed after the first round.
| cjbprime wrote:
| The hotel is three minutes away. He wasn't asked to change
| immediately, but he was asked to change on the same day.
| wavemode wrote:
| He didn't protest being fined. Rather, he (and many other
| pundits) think being forfeited for a dress code violation is
| outrageous. (And it doesn't even follow the letter of the law -
| nowhere is it explicitly stated that violating the dress code
| can lead to forfeiting a round.)
| ttyprintk wrote:
| Not explicitly, but you're "not allowed to play".
| deskr wrote:
| What kind of a savage plays competitive chess in jeans!?
| rf15 wrote:
| I know right? You need a helmet and knee protection at least,
| it's a rough sport.
| ssl-3 wrote:
| I understand the necessity for the knee pads, as they clearly
| help with performing under-the-table negotiations.
|
| But what function does the helmet serve?
| miceareacrutch wrote:
| Ballistic protection in particularly violent captures.
| deskr wrote:
| I seem to remember stories back in the day about
| threatening ashtrays and flipped chessboards. Helmets might
| not be a bad idea.
| pmontra wrote:
| Ensure that no AI can beam moves to players brains. Tinfoil
| helmets, of course.
| OJFord wrote:
| Clearly you haven't seen _House_!
| nottorp wrote:
| How about chess boxing?
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Certainly not the King!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2DaDziImgY
| bmacho wrote:
| There is a random puzzle at the middle of the article as the
| illustration, and the solution at the bottom of the article.
| fredoralive wrote:
| This appears to be a weekly chess column in the newspaper, and
| they all seem to have a chess puzzle in them[1]. I suspect in
| the paper it would be at the end of the column, with the answer
| on another page. It's perhaps a bit of an inelegant way to
| present it on the web version, but that's probably some sort of
| tradeoff with how the Guardian's website works, and if it's
| worth adding some sort of special case presentation for the
| chess column, which probably isn't exactly the most read bit of
| the site.
|
| [1] https://www.theguardian.com/sport/series/leonard-barden-
| ches...
| david-gpu wrote:
| The context in which this happened matters a lot.
|
| There have been tensions between the FIDE organization and top
| players like Carlsen since the latter have been promoting an
| alternative chess organization around Freestyle chess (aka
| Chesss960), which has slightly different rules.
|
| I.e. this is less about _" dress code enforcement"_ and it is
| more about _" Carlsen is fed up with the FIDE organization in
| general"_.
| SlonBog wrote:
| Also the context is Magnus wasn't best at this tournament. He
| was somewhere in middle in table and had less chances of
| converting. He has history of throwing tantrums when on tilt
| (Seinqfield 2022)
| david-gpu wrote:
| It is also his first Christmas after his mother's passing, so
| I think it is fair to say that he's under a lot of stress
| already.
|
| We will see how other players react today. Will they wear
| jeans in protest?
| tromp wrote:
| Why would you protest against enforcement of the rules that
| everyone was aware of and agreed to by participating?
|
| I agree that rules against jeans make limited sense. It
| makes more sense to forbid worn down or shabby looking
| attire. But one should abide by the rules one signs up to.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| > _But one should abide by the rules one signs up to._
|
| If it's the only competition in town, and the rules are
| unjust, and the organisation in question considers you #1
| chess player in the world... I can hardly imagine better
| circumstances for civil disobedience.
| sadeshmukh wrote:
| I thought this only happened 9 or so games in?
| delroth wrote:
| He was 2.5/3 the day he was fined (then forbidden to play)
| for his dress code violation, and was around rank 25 after
| game 8, one point behind first place. Not a winning
| performance but not particularly bad either.
| stavros wrote:
| How come? I thought he was the best in the world by a fair
| margin.
| n2d4 wrote:
| In classical chess, yes; in Blitz and Rapid he's still one
| of the best, but there's lots of good competition.
| stavros wrote:
| Ahh I missed that this wasn't classical, thank you.
| fastasucan wrote:
| He is both the current rapid (5 times) and blitz (7
| times) world champion. He is more than one of the best.
| elif wrote:
| And his freestyle performance was clearly shoulders ahead
| his peers
| n2d4 wrote:
| Sure, but he's not invincible like in Classic; those 7
| wins aren't consecutive (he lost in 2021 and won 22 &
| 23), meanwhile he's won every classical championship
| since 2013 (until he stopped playing in 2023).
| ANewFormation wrote:
| His edge in rapid/blitz is generally seen as much larger
| than in classical.
|
| One of the biggest examples of this was in his title
| defense against Caruana. Every game of that match had
| been drawn, and in the final game Magnus had a very
| promising position where he could squeeze with basically
| no risk.
|
| Instead he offered a draw which was immediately accepted.
| That sent the game to rapid tie breaks where he casually
| butchered Caruana 3-0.
| n2d4 wrote:
| That's because Caruana was a bad Blitz player though; on
| the elo rankings, Carlsen's lead is (and usually tends to
| be) smaller in Blitz.
| bluecalm wrote:
| He is by far the best in all formats but there is some luck
| in chess and the best player doesn't always win - like in
| most competitive games/sports.
| elif wrote:
| Luck is an interesting way of phrasing what can be simply
| described as pure neurological deficiencies. Your
| opponents brain forgot to go down a crazy sacrifice line
| which was actually M6. Is that luck?
|
| Or is it a comparative grey matter evaluation in time and
| pressure constraints?
| ANewFormation wrote:
| Exactly, many top players (probably all of them, but some only
| speak on such issues indirectly) feel FIDE is increasingly
| power tripping and somewhat out of touch with both the game and
| the interests of the players.
|
| During Kasparov's era sentiment was similar and ultimately an
| entirely new players' association with their own world
| championship cycle was created. In the end they reunified with
| FIDE, but we're back on the trajectory for something like that
| to happen again.
|
| I would wager alot that chess.com is strategizing behind the
| scenes about ways to become that replacement.
| Someone wrote:
| Chances are there also is a commercial angle to it. Magnus has
| commercial interests in https://playmagnusgroup.com/, which is
| somewhat at competition with the FIDE.
| soegaard wrote:
| If I understand correctly Play Magnus Group was acquired by
| chess.com in 2022.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Play_Magnus_Group
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| Sure. Beef with an organization.
|
| But if you are going to bother signing up, is 'jeans' really
| the hill to die on?
|
| If the beef is with the organization, just boycott altogether.
|
| Otherwise, just put on some pants.
|
| EDIT:
|
| Perhaps the downvotes are because of disagreement with methods
| of protest?
|
| What brings greater attention to your cause?
|
| 1. A boycott, you just don't go to the event? And make a press
| statement about it, that probably doesn't get any headlines.
|
| or
|
| 2. Sign up, go, then angrily get disqualified, based on some
| stupid rule, which gets a lot of headlines, and attention
| focused on silly rules of the organization?
|
| Guess, if the goal was to effect change, then maybe this was
| the correct move. But if it was just being pissi, then why
| bother signing up, you know the rules, so just don't go.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _Otherwise, just put on some pants._
|
| I agree. This isn't high school rebellion. Is the real world.
|
| Adults dress appropriately for different places and different
| times. You can be denied admission to a restaurant, a
| business, an office meeting, or even a concert for not
| dressing appropriately. This is no different.
|
| Grow up and put on some pants. Be sloppy in your own home.
| ruthmarx wrote:
| Jeans are pants and wearing them isn't sloppy.
| SoftTalker wrote:
| I've had jobs where I'd absolutely be sent home if I
| turned up wearing jeans. Might be a little less likely
| these days but there are many jobs and situations where
| this still applies.
|
| It's also about showing respect to the host, you dress
| nicely. Would you wear jeans to church or to a wedding?
| jncfhnb wrote:
| You, as chump trying to get a a job, are not similar to
| Magnus, the greatest chess player of all time, trying to
| play in a chess tournament. FIDE is well within their
| rights to demand he not wear jeans. Magnus is well within
| his rights to tell them to fuck off. FIDE loses more
| here.
| BoxFour wrote:
| I was a groomsman at a wedding where someone showed up in
| jeans.
|
| Japes abounded and some of the more conservative family
| members were giving severe side-eye, but at no point was
| it suggested that he be sent home. He showed up in jeans
| (offense), we gave him a lot of ribbing that he took in
| good stride (punishment).
|
| The appropriate response to offenses like this doesn't
| have to be banishment.
| voidfunc wrote:
| It's been twenty years since I went to church... but yes
| I wore jeans.
| MrDrMcCoy wrote:
| > Would you wear jeans to church or a wedding?
|
| Where I'm from, this is normal. There are even
| theological cases to be made against dress codes in
| church, beyond "don't show up naked" and similar basics.
|
| If your "host" has unreasonable expectations, then it is
| on some level unreasonable to follow them.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| Similarly, is a stupid rule about the type of fabric of a
| players pants really the hill to die on enforcement-wise?
| Discretion is a thing. Jeans has NOTHING to do with playing
| chess.
| thatswrong0 wrote:
| Especially when others are wearing chinos that look like
| jeans.
|
| Discretion should be a thing.
|
| This being a thing at all certainly proves Magnus' point.
| Its not 1970.
| vikingerik wrote:
| Just to clarify on the facts, as gathered from reddit threads:
|
| He wasn't trying to protest the dress code or make a scene, it
| wasn't on his mind at all. He had been out for an appearance
| with a sponsor during a break, then came back to the venue for
| the next round, and didn't notice that he was wearing jeans and
| it didn't cross his mind that that would be a violation.
|
| Then he was told to change, and there wasn't enough time for
| him to go do that before the upcoming round. He thought he was
| told he could do it either after that round or for the next
| day, but then was told he would be excluded from that round,
| and at that point he said f--- it and withdrew entirely.
|
| The controversy was about exactly how the penalty is imposed.
| The rule is a fine for the first violation and disqualification
| for multiple. It wasn't clear if his appearance for the day
| would count as one violation (so he could just incur the fine
| and wear correct clothing tomorrow), or if each round would be
| a separate violation. It also wasn't clear if he could play
| while in violation or would be excluded from each round until
| he changed. Precedent from other events wasn't clear for either
| of these.
|
| The headline of "disqualified" is wrong and did not happen - he
| chose to withdraw.
| ngcc_hk wrote:
| Based on what you said, IMHO may I say this is just a way to
| disqualifying hime, as he cannot enter into the round in
| time. That is effective disqualifying. Do not know details
| but losing a whole round ... can he recover even. Hence, I
| still ok with disqualifying.
|
| I am not sure knowing the rule but really have jean ... it is
| crazy rule in any case.
| cjbprime wrote:
| There was no time shortage -- he was asked to change with
| hours to do it and a hotel that was three minutes away. He
| said he was refusing "as a matter of principle", not that
| he didn't have enough time to change.
| epgui wrote:
| The only part of this that is totally implausible is the
| notion that Magnus wouldn't be super familiar with the rules.
|
| I'm not saying I agree with the rule or the specific way it
| was applied... But Magnus definitely knows the rules.
|
| Edit: for people downvoting... Can you please explain how the
| world's best chess player of all times wouldn't be familiar
| with FIDE rules? How is that even plausible? All of the
| players who compete at these events know the rules.
| wirrbel wrote:
| He knows the rules, IMHO it's his way of pulling out of
| FIDE competitions without a face loss.
|
| Not very sportsmanlike behaviour, I must say (and I am
| saying this as someone who admires MC).
| beepbopboopp wrote:
| How are you going to invent his intentions and then judge
| him for your inventions? This message board deserves
| better, the people deserve better.
| epgui wrote:
| While I don't think it's fair to presume anything about
| his intentions, it's totally fair to presume he is aware
| of the rules. He's the world's best chess player of all
| time, and it's not his first FIDE event.
| codr7 wrote:
| I think it's totally fair to ask the question, given that
| he seems to be involved in starting a competing
| organization.
| bbarnett wrote:
| I don't think the prior was a valid tact, but aren't
| people here inventing reasons for the jeans ban, and then
| judging the org for that too?
| monkey_monkey wrote:
| Given that he removed himself from the World Chess
| Championship, the thought that he needs a pretext to pull
| out of lesser competitions is ludicrous.
| cjbprime wrote:
| Given the other ways he's currently in conflict in FIDE,
| the idea is that he finds being disqualified in this way
| strategically useful, and a way to garner public
| sentiment that delegitimizes them.
| david-gpu wrote:
| Magnus didn't make FIDE enforce a particularly asinine
| interpretation of their own rules. If they wanted to,
| they could have issued a clarification or rectification
| in the 24 hours after the event, but they haven't.
|
| Both parties could have handled this much better.
| epgui wrote:
| > "a particularly asinine interpretation of their own
| rules"
|
| It's pretty black and white. 4.10.1.3.
| No players with t-shirts, jeans, shorts,
| sneakers, baseball caps or inappropriate dress are
| allowed in the playing area. Any requests to wear
| national or traditional dress shall be approved
| by FIDE Supervisor.
|
| Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_reg
| ulations_2024_...
| david-gpu wrote:
| Thank you! I stand corrected. I had missed that portion
| of your quote.
| epgui wrote:
| I apologize for twisting the knife but-- the proper thing
| to do would have been to research the rules at the
| source, not to make up stuff or repeat things from third
| parties.
|
| Wish I had found that section earlier, but I'm less
| familiar with the chess regulations so it took me a bit
| to assemble all of the essential parts.
| david-gpu wrote:
| _> I apologize for twisting the knife but-- the proper
| thing to do would have been to research the rules at the
| source, not to make up stuff or repeat things from third
| parties._
|
| Well, you are the one who posted the quote, which I used
| as the basis for my comment. I thought I had read it
| twice over, and saw no reference to jeans, hence my
| question. Not statement, _question_. I did not make
| anything up.
|
| Did you by any chance add the relevant section of the
| rules to your comment after I asked a question? The
| _proper thing to do_ would have been to quote the
| relevant portion of the rules, instead of adding that
| later.
|
| So, no. Apologies not accepted. Sorry.
| elif wrote:
| This is fully unsubstantiated and very unlikely
| supposition for anyone following the chess scene
| elif wrote:
| The rules themselves aren't clear. In fact the rules say
| that jeans themselves are allowed. The rule is about having
| frayed worn, or light portions on jeans.
|
| Magnus pants were fine. He is absolutely correct that they
| were singling him out and you can look back to many recent
| tournaments to see the clear double standard.
| epgui wrote:
| The rules say no such thing, and seem pretty clear to me.
| 4.10.1. The dress code is strictly observed for the
| tournament and all the official events and press
| conferences. 4.10.1.1. Dress code for men.
| Shoes: Oxfords, loafers, leather shoes or boots, classic
| suite shoes. Dark-coloured pants: black,
| navy, grey, beige, brown, in any case
| unicoloured. No bright colours. Long-
| sleeved light-coloured (white, light blue, beige,
| brown, etc.), blue or black shirt, in any case
| unicoloured. No bright colours. Dark-
| coloured jacket, waistcoat or cardigan with
| buttons: black, navy, grey, beige, brown, in any case
| unicoloured. No bright colours. Jacket,
| waistcoat or cardigan may be taken off during
| play. Tie is not mandatory.
| [...] 4.10.1.3. No players with t-shirts,
| jeans, shorts, sneakers, baseball caps or
| inappropriate dress are allowed in the playing
| area. Any requests to wear national or
| traditional dress shall be approved by FIDE Supervisor.
| [...] 4.10.9. If a player fails to fulfil
| his/her duties listed in Articles 4.10.1, 4.10.4
| - 4.10.8, he/she can be penalised by FIDE Council
| as follows: 5% of his/her prize money shall be
| forfeited to the Organiser and a further 5% to
| FIDE for each breach. In cases of serious misconduct,
| the player may be disqualified from the event.
|
| Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_reg
| ulations_2024_...
| david-gpu wrote:
| So it says nothing about jeans at all? Magnus was wearing
| unicoloured navy jeans at the time, which fall within the
| rules you quoted.
|
| Refusing to match him with a competitor because of this,
| effectively preventing him to compete, was
| disproportionate regardless.
|
| Edit: I see you added a section that specifically
| disallows jeans after I posted my comment. We could have
| saved some time.
| epgui wrote:
| I thought it was clear from the context and phrasing that
| "dark-coloured pants" excluded jeans, but in case there
| was any doubt: 4.10.1.3. No players
| with t-shirts, jeans, shorts, sneakers, baseball
| caps or inappropriate dress are allowed in the
| playing area. Any requests to wear national or
| traditional dress shall be approved by FIDE Supervisor.
|
| Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_reg
| ulations_2024_...
| david-gpu wrote:
| Thank you, I had missed the section about jeans. I stand
| corrected.
| munch117 wrote:
| To a Norwegian reader, blue jeans are definitely included
| in "pants".
|
| It's entirely possible to read 4.10.1.1, conclude that
| blue jeans are fine, and then skim over 4.10.1.3.
|
| However the Carlsens read it, after reading it, years
| will have passed. Carlsen didn't dress like he did after
| a studious read of the rules. He just put on some nice
| clothes that were no different from what he usually wears
| at tournaments.
|
| Except he forgot a belt. A proper organiser would have
| offered to lend him one.
| epgui wrote:
| I would assume (but can't know for sure, of course) that
| Magnus receives the rules before every event, and that he
| probably has people to help prepare/brief him on anything
| he needs to know.
|
| He's not a regular participant, Magnus is almost an
| institution of his own.
|
| Either way, it's literally his job to follow the FIDE
| rules (which is unusual but true), and he's the best in
| the world at his job.
|
| ---
|
| > "It's entirely possible to read 4.10.1.1, conclude that
| blue jeans are fine, and then skim over 4.10.1.3."
|
| In all fairness I originally did the same, so I hear ya.
| But I'm not a pro at this.
| RandomThoughts3 wrote:
| > He's not a regular participant, Magnus is almost an
| institution of his own.
|
| He is also very much no in agreement with FIDE (a
| tradition for chess champions - see Fischer, Kasparov).
| And to be honest FIDE is on FIFA level when it comes to
| being dodgy as an organisation so it's hardly surprising.
| stevage wrote:
| Not true at all. I've seen Hikaru talk about how he doesn't
| usually read the rules of tournaments and has been
| surprised by them.
| epgui wrote:
| I would find that a bit surprising. Do you happen to
| remember where you heard him say this?
| michaelt wrote:
| Sounds plausible enough to me.
|
| I don't read the license agreement of every bit of
| software or the privacy policy of every website, after
| all.
| epgui wrote:
| I think this is more akin to reading the rules of a
| formal assembly before participating (eg.: a senate or a
| formal committee). These guys do chess events for a
| living. :shrug:
| afro88 wrote:
| This is silly. Surely a GM knows the rules. You can't say the
| facts are he wasn't doing it in protest or wasn't trying to
| make a scene.
|
| The facts are he violated the dress code rule and then
| withdrew when it was enforced. He then mentioned his FIDE
| alternative in the ensuing press coverage.
|
| Edit: also, on paper, him attending a sponsor event and then
| violating a rule at the competition because he "didn't have
| time to change" speaks volumes about his priorities.
| mvdtnz wrote:
| What's "silly" is that such a dress code exists at all in
| 2024. What a bunch of uptight dorkwads.
| conception wrote:
| Dress-codes can be about more than morality. In a game of
| intense concentration having distracting clothing could
| be a distraction. It's not like every professional sport
| doesn't have a dress code.
| barbazoo wrote:
| > It is important to promote a good and positive image of
| chess. Attire worn during all phases of the championships
| and events should be in good taste and appropriate to
| such a prestigious chess event.
|
| That's the "objective" according to https://www.fide.com/
| images/stories/NEWS_2013/FIDE/Proposal_....
| wordofx wrote:
| What a load of crap. If someone is distracted by a
| persons attire then they probably are going to be
| distracted by other players playing, people walking
| around, noise.
|
| This is nothing more than a dumb outdated rule. He wore
| jeans. Not a fluorescent jump suit.
| rudiksz wrote:
| Yes, a resourceful chess player could gain an upper hand
| over any opponent who might have a jeans fetish. And we
| can't have that, can we.
| qq66 wrote:
| The other piece of context that's worth noting is that Carlsen
| is not as good as he used to be (he's still the best player in
| the world, but not by as big of a margin as he was 5-10 years
| ago) and that he seems to getting increasingly exasperated with
| chess itself. Every GOAT eventually retires in a different type
| of way (Kasparov, Anand, Karpov, all did it a bit differently)
| and Carlsen's might be coming up soon.
| Maxatar wrote:
| This doesn't hold up to a cursory analysis of Carlsen's
| rating. You can see Carlsen's historical ELO score on FIDE's
| website and look at it year over year and the difference
| between Carlsen and the #2, #3, #4, etc... is pretty
| consistent and very impressive. Usually the difference
| between a player ranked N and a player ranked N + 1 is about
| 5-10 ELO points, but Carlsen's is consistently 30+ including
| at this moment.
|
| https://ratings.fide.com/top_lists.phtml
| cjbprime wrote:
| Even Gukesh, crowned world champion recently, says Carlsen is
| the best player in the world.
| elif wrote:
| While it's true that chess is a young man's game, Magnus has
| not lost his ability to flow absolute dookie positions into
| mate like no one else under any controls.
| epolanski wrote:
| Anand is still active.
| oreilles wrote:
| Chesss960 doesn't have "slightly different rules" than chess,
| it's a variant where all the pieces are randomnly positioned at
| the start of each match... It's basically playing a completely
| different game, and one the FIDE has absolutely zero interest
| in. Freestyle and FIDE organization are not in competition.
| david-gpu wrote:
| _> Chesss960 doesn 't have "slightly different rules" than
| chess, it's a variant where all the pieces are randomnly
| positioned at the start of each match_
|
| For the 99% people who don't know what it is, I figured than
| _" slightly different rules"_ was a reasonable summary.
|
| _> Freestyle and FIDE organization are not in competition._
|
| You may want to ask yourself why FIDE is acting like they are
| indeed in competition. Perhaps they see something that you
| don't? Several top players getting behind Freestyle chess
| probably has something to do with it.
| sobriquet9 wrote:
| If it is a completely different game, why are all strongest
| players the same?
| 14 wrote:
| Couldn't it also be worded - I.e this is less about "dress code
| enforcement " and is more about FIDE fed up that Carlson is
| promoting alternative chess organizations - ?
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| I think the dress code is stupid. But if he were against it, he
| should not have attended at all. To attend and make a scene is
| just about publicity. It touches the superficial thread of
| rebellion without being respectable or commendable.
| enkid wrote:
| Seems like publicity is the point. Getting headlines is a lot
| more likely to change something then just skipping the
| tournament.
| cbg0 wrote:
| On the other hand, this is the most impactful way to change
| antiquated rules.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| That is true.
| viraptor wrote:
| Rules don't get changed due to people quietly saying "I don't
| like this rule" while staying at home. Public rebellion is what
| gets the job done. Protests that don't inconvenience anyone are
| irrelevant.
| Aachen wrote:
| Would it have been quiet if the defending champion decides to
| stay at home and when someone asks him he says it's because
| of a disagreement about the event's rules? Wouldn't that have
| gone around and raised the issue/discussion?
|
| I'm still undecided who's right here or who should have done
| what: I'm not for stupid dress codes, but it also seems silly
| to get hung up over if you can easily comply at no detriment
| to your performance or anything, so idk, just saying that it
| does seem like an option to stay home if you disagree when
| you're someone whose absence would be very conspicuous
| cwillu wrote:
| We wouldn't be talking about it here, and I suggest that
| the same is true across many other forums that aren't
| specifically focused on chess.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| That is true, I won't argue there.
| unsupp0rted wrote:
| Chess is supposed to be a game for smart people.
|
| Why would smart people care about denim vs. trousers?
|
| Let competitors wear pajamas- it makes no difference.
| booleandilemma wrote:
| It's a game of concentration, and what you wear could affect
| people's concentration. Better to just stick to a dress code.
| jfengel wrote:
| Man, it would be weird if they showed up covered in patches
| like a NASCAR driver or pro poker player.
|
| I'm usually not one to stand on formality but that does feel
| kinda gross.
| menotyou wrote:
| > Why would smart people care about denim vs. trousers?
|
| Mostly it's about the sponsors. It's much more difficult to get
| sponsors for an event if the participants are dressed like they
| slept in their clothes. That's why organizers try to impose
| minimal standards on dresscodes.
|
| Jeans and sneakers are maybe debatable, but players showed up
| with cargo pants, shorts or tank tops on other events.
|
| In the FIDE regulation for that event jeans were explicitly
| mentioned as not allowed. FIDE would have made a fool out of
| themselves when allowing Magnus to wear the jeans.
| pixelatedindex wrote:
| > Mostly it's about the sponsors. It's much more difficult to
| get sponsors for an event if the participants are dressed
| like they slept in their clothes.
|
| Would be interesting if they can get mattress companies or
| apparel companies that have good comfy clothes as sponsors.
| Why not play chess on a firm mattress?
| elif wrote:
| My brother was wearing a formal shirt and suit jacket.
| trollied wrote:
| Not sure I agree. Chess has moved towards a much younger
| audience over the last 5 years, and is incredibly popular
| now. Gets 10s of thousands of viewers on Twitch, for example
| & there are many players that could be seen as modern day
| celebrities in their own right.
|
| FIDE needs to embrace the younger generation that think the
| game is cool. Ancient dress codes are a distraction.
| dist-epoch wrote:
| Where do you draw the line though. Is dressing in a swim
| suit allowable?
| foldr wrote:
| Other environments manage more casual dress codes without
| too much difficulty. I can't wear a swimsuit to the
| office but I can wear jeans. No-one seems especially
| confused about where the line is.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| There's quite a difference between casual clothes and
| dressing indecently. IMO jeans are fine as long as
| they're inconspicuous (such as raggy jeans with holes in
| them or worn in such a way that the buttocks are showing)
| for such an event. Swimsuits are for a different type of
| event where if you're showing up in trousers they would
| disqualify you.
| motorest wrote:
| > Where do you draw the line though. Is dressing in a
| swim suit allowable?
|
| Textbook slippery slope fallacy.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| You've stated this as a matter of fact, but do you have a
| source, or are you speculating?
| Modified3019 wrote:
| They'd made a fool out of themselves by disallowing jeans
| jncfhnb wrote:
| FIDE looks a lot more foolish having the greatest and most
| famous chess player reject them over a dispute about
| clothing.
|
| Also, he looked very sharp in his outfit with the jeans.
| Frankly it was a better ensemble than I'd look in one of my
| suits.
| gpm wrote:
| It seems rather harder to get sponsors when you can no longer
| attract the best player in the world to your tournaments.
| That they made much more of a fool out of themselves by
| holding "world championships" without attracting the
| undisputed best player in the world to them.
|
| This looks to me like a case where FIDE got greedy and forgot
| to balance the talents interests with the sponsors.
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| Because smart people realize that all associations and
| organizations have rules and showing strangers that you follow
| the rules is an easy way to signal across languages and
| cultures that you are all there for the same reason
| jfengel wrote:
| Chess itself is a collection of very arbitrary rules.
|
| They happen to be rules that people decided are fun, or
| interesting, or something. If the dress code isn't fun they
| should change it.
|
| And for that matter... this tournament is a blitz game,
| itself a change of rules. Perhaps it would be well suited to
| a change in dress code. Formal clothes for classic chess.
| Show up in your PJs for a game that takes as long as brushing
| your teeth.
| kybernetyk wrote:
| >Chess is supposed to be a game for smart people.
|
| Rather for people with a really good memory. Which, to me,
| makes the game extremely boring and bland.
| paulcole wrote:
| I agree with you in a way.
|
| Chess to me is boring because the better player should
| win/draw unless they blunder. And we (generally) know who the
| better player is because of ratings.
|
| I've always much preferred games that in the short run have a
| luck component that can create massive swings (poker,
| backgammon, Scrabble) and inequality.
| thatswrong0 wrote:
| It's funny because that's partly what this a LOT about. FIDE,
| the defacto governing body of chess, wants freestyle chess
| (aka 960 aka Fischer random, which does lot to fix the memory
| issue you're talking about) to not be allowed to have a
| "world championship".
|
| And that attitude led us to these honestly inane events.
| nottorp wrote:
| Something like that. I was interested in chess until i
| realized you have to memorize all those openings to play with
| the 'serious' people.
|
| I'd play some Go but I have almost no one to play with
| casually. And since I play for fun, online isn't so good.
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| > Chess is supposed to be a game for smart people.
|
| Chess is for everyone, my 5 year old plays chess. Being world
| class is another thing.
| ilbeeper wrote:
| Basketball is a game for tall people. Lifting is a sport for
| strong people. Chess is a game for smart people. Is that
| controversial or incompatible with 5 year old kids playing
| chess?
| PUSH_AX wrote:
| It's false is what it is.
| ilbeeper wrote:
| All three sentences or only the one about chess?
| ttyprintk wrote:
| On the womens' side, the biggest FIDE sponsor is breast
| enhancement surgery. That makes women's choice of shirts
| important for the sponsor's marketing. Maybe these rules are
| trying to signal that the attention is spread across men as
| well.
| gradus_ad wrote:
| Why wouldn't smart people care about appearances? If the
| organization and participants desire to present themselves as
| dignified and worthy of respect, a certain standard of dress is
| appropriate.
|
| More generally, appearances are important because they are
| clear signs of attention and care. Something worth our respect
| is worth dressing up for, and a collective dressing up
| reinforces the importance and elevation of a given event or
| moment over other events or moments of lesser import.
| trollied wrote:
| Times have changed. Offices used to be full of people in full
| suits, with trousers. Now it is common for CEOs to wear
| jeans, and offices are much more tailored to working
| comfortably, rather than having a "posh" facade.
| notfed wrote:
| Are jeans undignified or disrespectful?
| epgui wrote:
| It doesn't really matter, regardless of whether or not we
| agree with the rules, jeans are clearly prohibited in the
| tournament: 4.10.1.3. No players with
| t-shirts, jeans, shorts, sneakers, baseball caps or
| inappropriate dress are allowed in the playing
| area. Any requests to wear national or traditional
| dress shall be approved by FIDE Supervisor.
|
| Reference: https://www.fide.com/docs/regulations/wrbc_regul
| ations_2024_...
| nottorp wrote:
| > More generally, appearances are important because they are
| clear signs of attention and care.
|
| Attention and care for appearances, not for the job to be
| done.
|
| One could interpret it that the sharp looks are there as a
| cover for ... less than stellar competence.
|
| You cannot win with statements like that.
| frou_dh wrote:
| > Let competitors wear pajamas- it makes no difference.
|
| Ah yes the wonderful "everything is equally valid"
| postmodernism. Why don't the organisers subscribe to that? They
| must be dumb-dumbs.
| mrweasel wrote:
| Most sports have dress codes. Some for obvious reasons, such as
| team sports where the players need to be able to identify each
| other, but others because they want things to look professional
| and more organised.
|
| Take a sport like rowing. Technically there's no reason why all
| the rowers in a boat needs to be dressed identically, but it
| looks more professional.
| DrewADesign wrote:
| > Why would smart people care about denim vs. trousers?
|
| Prescriptive contest rules suck, but I don't like the attitude
| endemic to nerds that _truly_ smart people don't care about
| personal aesthetic. There's no more honor in not caring how you
| look than there is in not caring about food or fine art. I have
| friends that are smart, capable professionals that look like
| they only get new clothes when their mom notices their shirts
| exceed the totinos pizza roll stain threshold and drags them to
| Bob's-- whether it's at home, work, wedding, date night, court,
| the gym, the club, a con, etc. You'd expect them to reject
| people's tendency to judge people on their looks, but
| ironically, they deem anyone that puts any effort into their
| appearance (a.k.a. doesn't solely _dress for comfort_ )
| shallow, unintelligent, and boring. Predictably, gender
| expectations play a huge part.
| jncfhnb wrote:
| https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/ace/ws/800/cpsprodpb/db4b/live/61d6.
| ..
|
| His outfit is sharp as hell Fwiw
| Invictus0 wrote:
| It's a shibboleth for ugly people; since they can't "win" on
| their looks, they opt not to play that game at all and need
| to loudly brag about their superiority over the vapid
| "fashion police".
| viraptor wrote:
| Reminds me of Ronnie O'Sullivan offending the snooker association
| by taking off shoes
| https://www.espn.co.uk/snooker/story/_/id/12736342/ronnie-os... I
| hope silly enforcement like that dies out.
| propter_hoc wrote:
| Or similarly, how he was accused of 'bringing the game of
| snooker into disrepute' by taking a shot with his left hand
| (and then playing three perfect games left-handed)
| http://en.espn.co.uk/snooker/sport/player/1241.html
| ivanjermakov wrote:
| Ironically he himself inspired thousands to watch and play
| snooker, myself included.
| dist-epoch wrote:
| There was similar drama exactly a year ago recently about a woman
| chess player wearing "sport shoes":
| https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/28/world/asia/chess-fine-sho...
| boothby wrote:
| The rules specifically said "dress to impress" and she wore
| thousand dollar shoes. Ridiculous. Good for Magnus, somebody
| needs to take a stand and he's got the clout to do so.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _The rules specifically said "dress to impress" and she wore
| thousand dollar shoes._
|
| Maybe not everyone is impressed by money?
| tremon wrote:
| Then the rules should have been more specific?
| boothby wrote:
| That's an abuse of quantifiers, and an interesting one. You
| suggest that the judges become literal fashion police, each
| individual with the authority to remove a contestant whose
| clothes are not impressive in their personal opinion. That
| should indeed be protested against; it's a chess tournament
| and not a fashion show.
|
| The word "to" is commonly interpreted to mean "for the
| purpose of" in this context. That is, the contestant should
| put effort into making their appearance impressive. Which,
| I also find offensive, but to a lesser degree.
|
| I'd propose that they certainly aren't "sport" sneakers,
| which is what she got dinged for. Unless you're a multi-
| millionaire playing tennis in a country club, I guess --
| but the only reason a person would wear those particular
| shoes in sport would be to impress their peers.
|
| And if you're not personally impressed by money, how would
| you interpret the "dress to impress" guideline? Would you
| find _any_ shoes to be impressive? Perhaps no shoes at all?
| I 'd lean towards 6" platforms, myself, as some people find
| tallness impressive.
| reaperducer wrote:
| _You suggest that the judges become literal fashion
| police, each individual with the authority to remove a
| contestant whose clothes are not impressive in their
| personal opinion._
|
| See also: Tennis. Schools. Restaurants. Courtrooms.
| Offices. Stores. Even public sidewalks.
|
| Welcome to society.
| astura wrote:
| For God's sake, no pictures of the shoes in that article, just
| a link to a long ass video where she allegedly holds them up.
| Im not watching a 20 minute video to see shoes.
|
| At least the Daily Fail has pictures -
| https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12908497/Chess-kaza...
| 3eb7988a1663 wrote:
| Doing a real service to humanity.
|
| Also - those shoes are ugly. Yet, I would not think twice
| about appropriateness. Would seem fine to wear to work, a
| funeral, or a state function.
| 23B1 wrote:
| I love watching institutions cling to silly little rules to the
| point where it actually hurts them. It's a perfect demonstration
| of the problems with groupthink.
| roelschroeven wrote:
| I think it's not so much groupthink, but rather that those
| institutions feel the need to make themselves look important
| and essential to the sport, instead of being there to
| facilitate the sport.
| 23B1 wrote:
| I would argue that groupthink is an umbrella term for what
| you describe; another might be 'bureaucracy' when used
| pejoratively, heh.
| blagie wrote:
| Kudos to Magnus for taking the high ground in such a low way :)
|
| Western dress codes are obnoxious. People shouldn't be evaluated
| for how they look or what they wear, at least in a competitive
| event like this one, but rather on how they play. He's absolutely
| right to be principled about this.
|
| At the same time, how he did it has such a touch of rebellious
| style.
| motorest wrote:
| > Western dress codes are obnoxious.
|
| I don't know why you feel this is relevant. The issue is
| clearly not about dress codes, let alone "western dress codes".
| Your comment reads like a desperate attempt to take a cheap
| stab at "western" things.
| mam2 wrote:
| I'm the opposite of woke but he's not wrong that suits are a
| western thing and and enforcing it as if it's universal is a
| bit pushy
| motorest wrote:
| > suits are a western thing
|
| I think you're commenting out of ignorance. FIDE's dress
| code does accepts "national costumes", on par with suits
| and Bermuda shorts.
|
| https://www.fide.com/images/stories/NEWS_2013/FIDE/Proposal
| _...
|
| It's an arbitrary list of clothing items that is supposedly
| put together to "promote a good and positive image of
| chess", regardless of where you come from.
| lowbloodsugar wrote:
| So a USA player can wear blue jeans?
| seattle_spring wrote:
| > I'm the opposite of woke
|
| What exactly do you think that word means?
| griomnib wrote:
| I find people who use it in a derogatory don't do much
| actual thinking to start with.
|
| The literal origin of its use in social justice realms
| was to put an emphasis and value on critical thinking.
|
| By pondering the nature of society one can be "awoken" to
| the deeper sociological forces which shape individual
| lives.
|
| I'll freely admit the term has been perverted by a range
| of actors with motivations I disagree with.
|
| But the original meaning and intent is valuable: all of
| us live in a world of hidden boundaries and power
| structures, but seeing that requires thought.
|
| Many people don't want to think for themselves, and they
| hate those that do.
| krapp wrote:
| You aren't wrong, but to be _entirely_ fair, the original
| meaning of "woke" came from the black activist community
| and referred to the hidden boundaries and power
| structures of systemic white supremacy, ignorance of
| which could directly threaten their lives.
|
| I think it's important to remember that specific context
| when talking about where "woke" as a concept comes from,
| its general acceptance within the leftist community has,
| unfortunately (and maybe inevitably,) come with a bit of
| whitewashing.
| griomnib wrote:
| Totally agree.
| codr7 wrote:
| That's far from the whole story though.
|
| Part of being woke is usually seeing others as asleep and
| not as enlightened, which means it's ok to lecture them
| to hell and back. There's a difference between thinking
| critically and looking for problems to feel superior.
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| FWIW blue jeans are about as western (literally!) as you
| get.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| > I'm the opposite of woke
|
| English already has a word for that- asleep
| Arch485 wrote:
| No, "asleep" is the opposite of "awake". Woke is a
| different construct.
|
| Maybe an antonym to "woke" could be "slept"?
| SideQuark wrote:
| "Woke" in this context is literally a synonym for "awake"
| [1].
|
| It's best to learn nuances of word usage before
| "correcting" others.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
| tedunangst wrote:
| Who said anything about requiring suits?
| John23832 wrote:
| It would probably be cooler seeing people dressed in the pride
| of their home cultures while competing.
|
| Though I'm sure the old guard would say some dress is too
| distracting.
| 7734128 wrote:
| Yes, he should have put on a bunad.
| robocat wrote:
| > bunad
|
| Traditional Norwegian dress for women and men.
|
| https://thespurtrail.com/the-bunad-norways-traditional-
| folk-...
| robocat wrote:
| Jeans are "Western".
| laserlight wrote:
| You can listen to Magnus's own account, including his
| acknowledgment of his lower-than-expected performance and
| tensions with FIDE:
|
| Magnus Carlsen Got KICKED OUT Of World Championship (5 min)
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNTD_R8Scbk
| chirau wrote:
| A dumb rule is still a rule.
|
| No one should be exempted from rules otherwise chaos will ensue.
|
| If he has a problem with the rule, he should make an official
| petition rather than resort to civil disobedience.
| threatofrain wrote:
| There are exemptions to all legal systems in the world, and
| you're using words like "official petition" and "civil
| disobedience" for a game.
| gverrilla wrote:
| Dress codes like these have a function which was not mentioned
| here: they prevent poor/broke people from participating.
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Do they _really_? I have some black slacks that are 10 year old
| hand-me-downs from a relative and they look fine. My dress
| shirt for multiple years was a $5 second hand purchase - and I
| got more compliments on that shirt than on the ones that I got
| new.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| Most such things are more about insider cultural knowledge
| than actual money. Most "upper class" activities and styles
| can be done cheap or free, but you need to know how.
| DonHopkins wrote:
| Imagine what a fuss they would have made if he wasn't wearing
| pants.
|
| You just can't win...
| moomin wrote:
| I remember in the late 80s there was a bar called "Lennon's" in
| Liverpool. The dress code banned jeans. Pretty sure John Lennon
| would have despised the place.
| causality0 wrote:
| _This applies equally to everyone_ is always the rallying cry
| when a rule applies to everyone while not being equally onerous
| to everyone. It 's like dress codes in schools that are much
| easier for girls to violate than boys, or office hairstyle bans
| that seem to only target styles used by black people.
| greatgib wrote:
| Something funny related to the topic of this news in my opinion:
| in the picture selected by the newspaper, the sponsor of the
| event looks like to be the "Freedom Holding corp"...
| rurban wrote:
| Coincidence. The world best table tennis player, Fan Zen-Dong
| also just resigned, as well as two times world champion Chen
| Meng, from the sleazy organization called WTT. Which decides on
| WC and Olympics.
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