[HN Gopher] The trap of "I am not an extrovert"
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The trap of "I am not an extrovert"
Author : orkohunter
Score : 245 points
Date : 2024-12-26 09:29 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (orkohunter.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (orkohunter.net)
| Vampiero wrote:
| Well too bad ADHD makes me a fast thinker that talks over
| everyone else and writes code at 6x speed, but only sometimes,
| when I'm not procrastinating for hours at a time and when I'm not
| too mentally drained to engage with other people. It makes me an
| extrovert at work, but only sometimes, and a great team player,
| but only sometimes.
|
| These blog posts feel so dumb to me because they always assume
| that you're a neurotypical and that everyone around you also is a
| neurotypical. That if you just put in the effort, you too can do
| it!
|
| Well guess what? No, it's not like that. In fact, this mode of
| thinking is exactly the problem that makes my life hell. Fuck
| this. If I'm working remotely it's because idgaf about other
| people - not any more than strictly necessary to complete my
| tasks. Stop trying to gaslight me into thinking I'm wrong, stop
| trying to force me to go on trips and to delegate and to talk to
| other people - this is an adaptation for my own survival. I went
| into programming because I like writing code. That's literally
| the start and the end of it. It's not my fault the industry is
| 99% web development and 1% fun stuff for people on [a] spectrum.
| I'm here because if I weren't I would starve, not because I care
| about your company or the people you hired. Even though I'll
| gladly chit-chat with them from time to time, and even form
| friendships if I deem it worth it.
| kkoncevicius wrote:
| I think you are taking yourself too seriously.
| mnky9800n wrote:
| Can't imagine this attitude makes work easier for you nor does
| it make working with you easier. People keep making these "I'm
| on the spectrum" arguments as if it's a legitimate excuse for
| bad behaviour. Perhaps life is more difficult for you in some
| ways. Life isn't fair, learning to accept this is much more
| rewarding than hiding behind some spectrum definition. ADHD
| doesn't make you do anything. You choose your life.
| zenethian wrote:
| I mean, it literally does make you do things. That's why it's
| a mental disorder.
| erinaceousjones wrote:
| What, in the post you are replying to, would you consider
| "bad behaviour"? Seriously, give us some examples!
| creaktive wrote:
| Heyyy, take it easy :) Would you call it "bad behavior" when
| a mute person refuses to speak? Well, A(u)DHD kind of makes
| one deaf, mute and blind to the standard communication style.
| That's why the afflicted prefer to WFH, and text instead of
| face-to-face. Some are always impaired so, while others, only
| when tired.
| mnky9800n wrote:
| I know. I'm diagnosed. I found that when I stopped using it
| as an excuse and started engaging my career and life in the
| ways I assumed adhd made them worse, I started succeeding
| in ways I thought I wouldn't. My message is don't become a
| person who identifies as a person with adhd. It will only
| hold you back in my experience.
| creaktive wrote:
| I understand your point better now, thanks for
| elaborating! I do relate to the experience of stopping
| using my diagnosis as an excuse for pushing people away.
| My life is so much better now. Yet, for me, a pair
| programming session (for instance) is something I prefer
| doing, like, once a month, or less. But I certainly do
| enjoy it, a lot!
| int_19h wrote:
| > ADHD doesn't make you do anything.
|
| It literally does.
| delichon wrote:
| I was a fat little kid with a skinny friend who told me the
| secret to losing weight (which he had never had the need to
| do): just don't eat so much. He was not gas lighting me in any
| way. He was just communicating his internal experience that
| this thing that I found tremendously difficult was in fact
| trivially easy and I just had to try it. He wasn't lying, just
| telling me his truth which happened to be false. Don't
| attribute malice to obliviousness.
| drowsspa wrote:
| I'd attribute malice when this advice comes from supposedly
| grown-ups.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Exactly. At some point, obliviousness itself becomes
| malicious.
| creaktive wrote:
| Was going to write approximately this, thanks for beating me to
| it. Just a bit of sparkling from my own (mostly miserable)
| experience: the disdain for "normies" comes from them,
| "normies", forcing a square peg (me, atypical) into a round
| hole. There's zero intention for accommodating for the
| differences. Predictably, as a result you get an extremely
| antisocial introvert. But guess what! If you just LEAVE ME BE,
| respect my silence and self-isolation... I will reach out and
| try to connect, on my own terms. Usually, by written text,
| since I don't parse voices well, and don't read facial
| expressions at all.
| knorker wrote:
| > What they don't realize is - everyone is an introvert and
| everyone is an extrovert.
|
| Citation needed.
|
| > I looked into his eyes and saw the disgust for everyone in the
| room.
|
| That's not how human interaction or theory of mind works.
|
| This article is "not even wrong". It's just subjective bullshit
| (in the technical definition of the word bullshit).
|
| It's probably the most ill informed post I've ever seen on the
| front page of HN.
| SecretDreams wrote:
| > It's probably the most ill informed post I've ever seen on
| the front page of HN.
|
| Ever seen _so far_
| zenethian wrote:
| This is a terrible article that reads like an AI generated
| LinkedIn post.
|
| Nevermind the fact that the author isn't using the terms
| introvert and extrovert correctly; the message is quite ableist.
| Not everyone can achieve this level of communication in a
| productive manner. Telling people that management will "prefer"
| one over the other when it's "budget time" is also dead wrong.
| I've fired more extroverts than introverts in my career, and it's
| likely only a coincidence.
|
| The author sounds like one of those "proud extroverts" that they
| made up into existence.
| erinaceousjones wrote:
| I think you have good points in your middle paragraph, but I
| disagree with your first sentence. I can see a growing trend of
| dismissive "this reads like it's AI-generated" when I frankly
| think it _has_ been written like that. Author has a similar
| tone to me. That 's my writing style.
|
| > Not everyone can achieve this level of communication in a
| productive manner.
|
| Correct, and it sucks. I feel like it's ableist at times too.
| 9-to-5 days of small-talk are so strangely exhausting t me.
| It's very frustrating I feel it's a mandatory part of my career
| if I don't want to be forgotten about.
|
| But? I don't disagree with the author. In my interpretation,
| they aren't saying "I'm an extrovert and I'm great", they're
| saying "hey, this is a thing you can choose to do or be, and
| you may find it benefits you, and the introvert/extrovert thing
| is a stupid distinction, but being extrovert in the right way
| is a means of making yourself visible".
|
| Because, let's face it, it _is_. There _is_ some entrenched
| ableism, in a way. Last I checked like 10-20% of western
| population is some form of neurodiverse and a proportion of
| that just do not click with the predominant communication
| styles used by the majority population. It sucks and we are
| left feeling like we are not accommodated for and can easily
| fall into that exhausted feeling of resentment.
|
| But? So what? You can help make things incrementally better for
| yourself in the system whilst still "playing the game", if you
| consider it as something you are _choosing_ to expend your
| energy on.
| knorker wrote:
| I held back a similar comment about AI-generated. I think the
| "AI-generated" accusation is overused. This article was
| incoherent nonsense, but not all incoherent nonsense
| hallucinations are AI-generated.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| People underestimate how old incoherent writing is. For
| that matter they underestimate how hard it is to write
| coherently.
| Izkata wrote:
| Funnily enough, the part that made me suspicious is it
| didn't end with the last section titled "In Conclusion" -
| for a while now human bloggers have gotten so bad/lazy they
| don't seem to know how to tie together a long-form post at
| the end, and instead just use that title to repeat a couple
| of earlier points.
| jiscariot wrote:
| > He said, with a smirk, "I am not an extrovert".
|
| In this likely fabricated scenario, our initial
| introduction to the introvert has them also coming across
| as a dick.
| int_19h wrote:
| The author straight up says that being an introvert or an
| extrovert is a choice.
|
| They clearly have no idea what it actually feels like being an
| introvert.
| HKH2 wrote:
| There's a choice for an introvert to put on a front once they
| know how, but that's nowhere near becoming an extrovert.
| bawolff wrote:
| It also seems to assume that just because you don't want to
| socialize in some specific setting means you are an introvert
| or extrovert.
|
| Everyone has people they like and people they don't. I've had
| co-workers i don't particularly like. Of course i am
| professional and polite to them at work and can work with them
| fine, but would i specificly go up to them at a party and chat?
| Probably not (i'd still be polite of course, just not
| specificly seek them out).
| llm_nerd wrote:
| "Nevermind the fact that the author isn't using the terms
| introvert and extrovert correctly"
|
| Is there a correct use? The most social, outgoing people I know
| universally declare themselves introverts because they, like
| every human in history, occasionally likes some alone time to
| "recharge". It's similar to how everyone has OCD because they
| like a tidy desk.
|
| Make being an introvert a positive trait somehow and suddenly
| 100% of people are introverts.
|
| There are sort-of clinical definitions (e.g. "have a limited
| social bandwidth and need to recharge") but they're so broadly
| applicable they are worthless.
|
| There are other traits like social phobia or anxiety that often
| get intermixed with those, but they are very different
| qualities even if they manifest in a way that might get
| categorized.
|
| I do consider myself an introvert. At a young age I would see
| stories where someone broke the rules (in prison, military boot
| camp, etc) and would be relegated to solitary. They'd get
| outdoor time, books, often even craft materials, etc, but they
| were all alone all day long. I could never understand how this
| was a punishment. It seemed absolutely magical.
| card_zero wrote:
| > No matter what role you play, you will always have to
| communicate and collaborate with others. If this is something you
| disagree with, you should go back to the drawing board and think
| deeply.
|
| Sounds good, that's what I wanted.
|
| > you should check out Thinking Fast and Slow.
|
| I checked it out:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow#Replic...
|
| _It was discovered many prominent research findings were
| difficult or impossible for others to replicate, and thus the
| original findings were called into question. An analysis of the
| studies cited in chapter 4, "The Associative Machine", found that
| their replicability index (R-index) is 14, indicating essentially
| low to no reliability._
| brailsafe wrote:
| Seems like you just did the most cursory of searches, found a
| negative pull quote about some studies in one chapter, and
| called it day. Much like reading the negative google reviews
| for a bar you were invited to instead of actually accepting the
| invitation and going, I'm not sure this qualifies as "checking
| it out"
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| One thing to me is fairly obvious: people who are introverts
| _can_ be social, but only for limited amounts of time.
|
| For example, I like talking a lot, but I can only do it for
| limited amounts of time. Maybe only a few hours a week. If I'm
| pushed past that point, I just don't want to chat any more. It's
| like I'm full of food, but with socialization. After that I find
| socialization immensely distasteful and irritating.
|
| That's why a 9-5 workplace environment never worked for me. It
| was forced socialization past my limit. Maybe that's what
| happened to the guy in this article: they go into defensive mode
| because they are pushed past their limit.
|
| Extroverts don't understand this concept of limited capacity for
| socialization.
| fnord77 wrote:
| > people who are introverts can be social
|
| not if they have social anxiety or are not NT
|
| > but only for limited amounts of time.
|
| but yes, this is true. And it is not something you can build up
| like a muscle or long distance running. In fact I think trying
| to build up the amount of time you socialize actually
| diminishes it
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > not if they have social anxiety
|
| I have (frequent) crippling social anxiety, am definitely an
| introvert, and I can be social -in the right
| circumstances-[0] (albeit for a limited period of time[1].)
|
| [0] eg. small group of people I know well, familiar
| surroundings, ideally without a lot of external noise.
|
| [1] 3-4 hours tends to be my limit even under the best
| circumstances.
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| Everything is true except for the edge cases where it's not;
| pointing this out I think is unnecessary.
| fnord77 wrote:
| if something is true everywhere except the edge cases, it
| is not true everywhere.
| SecretDreams wrote:
| > Extroverts don't understand this concept of limited capacity
| for socialization.
|
| I think there's gotta be a middle ground where someverts are
| more tolerant of socializing for long periods of time. It still
| becomes draining, but they don't have some terrible allergic
| reaction. More like just mild sneezing!
| neofrommatrix wrote:
| It's a spectrum - most of us are ambiverts.
| jfengel wrote:
| I'm not convinced it's a single dimension, either. I
| suspect it's less a spectrum and more of a blotch.
| lupire wrote:
| People say "spectrum" when they mean "1-dimensional
| ranged value". But a real spectrum is a bitfield of
| attributes.
| pizza wrote:
| Considering we're talking about real people and the real
| conversations you have with them, definitely. The 5
| people I talk to and the patterns I've come to expect
| from socializing with them, and the way that those
| patterns interact with my own behavior, don't really have
| a neat apples-to-apples comparison with your 5 people and
| their patterns and how you interact with those patterns,
| etc. We could both be calling ourselves introverts and
| extrapolating wildly different chains of observations and
| predictions about how those hypothetical conversations
| would be affecting the other one's energy levels, etc.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| The whole concept of *verts is an early 20th century
| psychological concept from an era which produced practices
| and ideas which are now mostly antiquated.
|
| It has become pop psychology and never had much meaning.
| hollerith wrote:
| The field of personality psychology continues to believe
| it has meaning: extraversion is a factor in the five-
| factor model.
| fsckboy wrote:
| the five factor model suggests nothing about "gains
| energy/drains energy", it simply measures tendency toward
| extraversion and identifies it as a highly explanatory
| factor in personality. There are 5 factors because those
| 5 are the factors that when measured appear to be
| independent variables, and explanatory.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > There are 5 factors because those 5 are the factors
| that when measured appear to be independent variables
|
| This is not correct; they are not independent.
| fsckboy wrote:
| the goal is for them to be independent variables in the
| statistical sense. science is a process of refinement so
| there will undoubtedly be improvements, but they are as
| independent as they can be based on current knowledge,
| they can be measured separately, and people exist in
| every combination (the scales of each measure are not
| dependent on one another), and we can't describe what we
| know about personality without including all of them.
| Myers-Briggs comes to mind as a comparable metric which
| has more dependence among its variables, and essentially
| ignores neuroticism.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > the goal is for them to be independent variables in the
| statistical sense.
|
| No, it isn't. The goal is for them to have high
| explanatory power. They aren't independent variables, and
| the fact that they aren't is a frequent criticism of
| them. But it's not relevant to whether they are useful
| descriptors or predictors.
|
| Compare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personalit
| y_traits#Li... :
|
| > In many studies, the five factors are not fully
| orthogonal to one another; that is, the five factors are
| not independent. Orthogonality is viewed as desirable by
| some researchers because it minimizes redundancy between
| the dimensions.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| It seems relatively true that some people gain energy
| from socializing, while others expend energy to do so;
| extrovert vs introvert; which is what I been told is the
| difference between extroverts and introverts. It's not
| that introverts _can't_ socialize, it's just that they
| have a limited capacity to do so (with the caveat that
| there are people who have social anxiety that cannot
| socialize, who _also_ fall into the category of
| introvert).
|
| Given how obviously true it _appears_ to be when talking
| to people about their experiences, why do you say that?
| lolinder wrote:
| > with the caveat that there are people who have social
| anxiety that cannot socialize, who _also_ fall into the
| category of introvert
|
| Interestingly, I know people who say they are socially
| anxious extroverts--they need to be with people to draw
| energy but have high levels social anxiety. This usually
| means they need to spend a lot of time with people they
| know well and trust.
| RoyalHenOil wrote:
| Introversion level is really just a measure of how much
| social stimulation you require on average. Everyone has some
| level above which they feel exhausted and below which they
| feel lonely/bored.
| LouisSayers wrote:
| Most people would understand, some play dumb, and some people
| just have low IQ...
| amelius wrote:
| I also find that switching between introvert and extrovert mode
| takes effort. If you like being in an introvert mode, then in
| social environments you move a lot of times between both modes
| (because you fall back into introvert mode, until someone
| starts talking to you), and this can be tiring.
| inciampati wrote:
| Yes, extroverts do understand this limited capacity. It's like
| when you live an ultra sedentary lifestyle, and one day you
| realize you can't catch your breath after walking up four
| flights of stairs. Like any capacity, socializing requires
| exercise. We are all descended from a long line of people who
| lived extremely social lives. It's only in the last decade or
| two that it became possible to live a productive live by text,
| alone, without the intense realtime, full mind and full body
| experience of being with other people. Use it or lose it. And
| don't assume socialization is easy for some class of
| "extroverts" who are dominating "introverts" into being full
| members of the organizations which they work for. It's hard,
| worthwhile work for everyone. Socialization capacity is like
| any trait. You have to use it or you'll lose it. I say this
| because I think modern life is depopulating as people decide
| they have a condition that's some kind of innate disability. I
| wish y'all would accept that it's just hard, but worth it.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| Good counterpoint but I think there's definitely a variance
| in ease amongst the population. Don't get me wrong, I agree
| with you. I am the kind of person that will socialize because
| I know it's a good thing in general. But I do think some
| people can perform "socialization feats" just in the same way
| the best bodybuilders can get super jacked whereas there is
| no way I'm lookin' like Arnold. haha.
| jrs235 wrote:
| Extroverts also need to work on sitting in silence, IMO...
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42517790
| ACow_Adonis wrote:
| So what you're saying is that extroversion is curable with a
| bit of a change of social behaviours and environment, and
| with a bit of practice, discipline and repetition we can turn
| them into mathematicians, farmers, hunters, philosophers,
| scientists, monks, priests and witch doctors and negate this
| artificial always networking and hustling environment that's
| only been created in the last 200 years with the industrial
| revolution, communication revolution and growth obsessed
| capitalism :)
|
| This gives me hope: there's no silver bullet, but one day we
| can find a cure for our modern curse of excessive
| extroversion :)
| inciampati wrote:
| FWIW, I'm "extroverted" in the terms used in this thread,
| but I'm also all of these: mathemetician, farmer,
| scientist. We can work on monk or priest but those might be
| mutually exclusive!
| blueflow wrote:
| Or maybe "I'm introverted" i just the nice form for "You are
| annoying and i don't enjoy being around you".
| halfcat wrote:
| Yes. I always thought this captured it well:
|
| _"I used to think I was introverted because I really liked
| being alone but it turns out I just like being at peace and
| I am very extroverted when I'm around people who bring me
| peace."_
| MoreMoore wrote:
| As an introvert, no.
|
| Socializing is always draining. I enjoy being around
| other people and I enjoy socializing, I like going to
| parties and meeting people and whatever else, but it's
| extremely tiring for me. No matter how much I like the
| person it's with, I'll be exhausted afterwards and I'll
| need a lot of time in solitude and isolation to get all
| that energy back.
|
| It has nothing to do with how much peace a person brings
| me. Being social to any degree takes energy and I need to
| be alone to get that energy back.
|
| That's introversion. Not "I don't like people".
| inciampati wrote:
| Socializing is always draining. It's a physical fact that
| it simply takes a huge amount of energy to engage with
| other people, no matter what you think your personality
| type is. Dealing with socialization is a big part of why
| we have these huge energy-intensive brains.
|
| I think the discussion here suggests it's an issue of
| perspective. Is socialization a fact of life, or is it
| something you are allowed to opt out of?
|
| It's okay to be tired. A day that leaves you exhausted
| should be celebrated and followed up with rest to prepare
| for the next day!
| MoreMoore wrote:
| Having known plenty of extroverts, I don't see how this
| is true.
|
| The discussion here is wrong and at odds with the science
| I've seen and my anecdotal experience. You can't just
| decide we're all the same and that some of us just have
| an attitude problem. That's asinine and irritating.
| blueflow wrote:
| He is right, its a physical fact that talking and doing
| something takes more energy (not the emotional, but the
| Joules thing) than sitting around alone.
| Dalewyn wrote:
| >We are all descended from a long line of people who lived
| extremely social lives.
|
| Just because something was a _necessity_ for a greater cause
| in ye olde days does not mean that it is also a _good_ thing
| in itself. Now that it 's not a strict necessity, a not
| insignificant number of people are admitting they don't like
| it.
|
| Personally I consider myself more intro- than extrovert. I
| find people dishonest (even the most honest ones) and dealing
| with that reality is extremely tiring.
| lolinder wrote:
| > We are all descended from a long line of people who lived
| extremely social lives. It's only in the last decade or two
| that it became possible to live a productive live by text,
| alone, without the intense realtime, full mind and full body
| experience of being with other people.
|
| Most of us are descended from people who lived in small
| communities and rarely interacted with people who lived
| outside of them. It's only in the last 200 years (an instant
| on evolutionary timescales) that the majority of humanity
| ended up in a position where we have to constantly deal with
| more than ~30 people on a regular basis.
|
| Sure, we spent a lot of time with those 30 people in the
| past, but calling that "extremely social" is pretty
| misleading in the modern context--today that kind of wording
| evokes a very different image than the small-scale village
| life that dominated our ancestors' lives.
|
| I'm a hardcore introvert by modern standards, but for me that
| doesn't mean that I don't enjoy spending time with my small
| circle of friends and family, it means that when I branch out
| beyond that small circle socialization is actively draining.
| I'd have done just fine in village life, it's the completely
| unnatural modern world that is overwhelming to my social
| limits, and I get rather tired of extroverts telling me that
| it's just because I don't try hard enough to "exercise".
| tayo42 wrote:
| > Most of us are descended from people who lived in small
| communities and rarely interacted with people who lived
| outside of them. It's only in the last 200 years (an
| instant on evolutionary timescales) that the majority of
| humanity ended up in a position where we have to constantly
| deal with more than ~30 people on a regular basis.
|
| I would be surprised if this is true. Ancient civilizations
| were complex. When Pompeii erupted the population was
| around 10k just there. Having the chance to walk around
| part of it. Everything was dense and close and there were
| large city centers and markets. I'm sure the rest of Rome
| is just as big and same for the other cities and empires
| going back thousands of years.
| lolinder wrote:
| > When Pompeii erupted the population was around 10k just
| there.
|
| And Rome (the city) had a population of 1 million or
| more, but that doesn't change the fact that demographers
| estimate at most a 10-20% urbanization rate in the Roman
| empire--meaning at least 80% of the population lived
| outside of cities in rural areas. And that's Rome, which
| had a notably high urbanization rate compared to periods
| before or after, not matched in Europe until the
| industrial revolution.
|
| Compare that with an 80% urbanization rate in the US
| today and we're looking at almost exactly the inverse
| from where we were 2000 years ago in the Mediterranean.
| And it's even worse if we're just looking at the US,
| which had a 5% urbanization rate in the 1790 census and
| didn't even get to _20%_ until 1860. Where we 're at now
| is simply unparalleled in history, and there's ample
| evidence that we're not well adapted as a species to this
| kind of density.
| tayo42 wrote:
| Rural doesn't mean your living secluded away from the
| world though with two other families to talk to. There
| was still a society and economy to be part of,
| governments that rule, wars being fought, religion etc
| lolinder wrote:
| None of those things required social engagement with
| large numbers of people on an ongoing basis. Occasional
| contact with the broader world for business and religion
| is not the same thing as the intense, frequent, and
| large-scale social expectations that are a burden for
| most introverts.
|
| There's a huge difference between going to church on
| occasion (or even weekly, which was not always the norm)
| and living in a city with a population density measured
| in the thousands per square mile.
| tayo42 wrote:
| How else would you live?
|
| I think this idea of villages of 30 people where you
| don't talk to anyone is just a fantasy. Even the
| Mayflower had 130 people to just set up their new town.
| lolinder wrote:
| > idea of villages of 30 people where you don't talk to
| anyone is just a fantasy
|
| I didn't say that--I said you'd regularly interact with
| only ~30 people (give or take). You'd probably be on good
| terms with a few dozen more, and it's been demonstrated
| that we really lose the ability to have relationships
| entirely by about 100-300.
|
| The average city today has about _8x_ that number of
| people _per square mile_. That 's entirely unlike
| anything that evolution equipped us for, which is why I
| object to OP's assertion that we all descend from
| extremely social people. By modern standards we
| absolutely do not.
| tayo42 wrote:
| todays world gives you so many opportunities to not talk
| to anyone. if you needed to get something done in the
| past you need to talk with other people, people were
| specializing in their abilities. today you can get food
| delivered to your door, look up repairs on youtube, buy
| anything you want or need online, do your job remotely,
| get directions from an app.
|
| in what way do you feel like your expected to talk to
| anyone in our modern world? even here online, there's no
| expectation for you to respond to anything I said here
| siva7 wrote:
| So you seriously think that humans two, three decades ago
| were extroverted because they couldn't live a productive life
| by not being extremely sociable and introverted is an
| unnatural condition where you just need more social
| excercise? Is this the intellectual level of this community
| now?
| yabatopia wrote:
| Socializing is a skill and requires exercise, but everyone
| has its own unique limitations and skill levels. Not everyone
| throughout history has led an exceptionally social life
| filled with constant conversation. There are plenty of
| references to quiet and seclusive people in the bible, for
| instance. In the Middle Ages, you could join a monastery or
| convent, which provided a community more suited for
| introverts. Right now, I wouldn't be surprised if many
| introverts feel there is no escape from the extrovert modern
| life.
| lolinder wrote:
| Yep.
|
| It's notable to me every time this topic comes up on HN
| that an extrovert invariably comes on and straight up tries
| to argue that introverts are just people who don't try hard
| enough. When that happens to people with other biological
| differences it's immediately and rightly decried--even
| other mental differences have become increasingly
| recognized and protected from that kind of condescending
| judgement--but the combination of the hidden-ness of the
| difference and the fact that those with this difference are
| less prone to speak up to defend themselves means that it's
| okay to tell a whole class of people that the difference
| between them and the average case is that average people
| try harder.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| > We are all descended from a long line of people who lived
| extremely social lives
|
| Do you think the hunters who were huntering kept chatting all
| the time? Or the gatherers looking for berries/mushrooms just
| talked and talked and talked and judged anyone who went by
| themselves?
|
| Did the goat herder have people walk up the hill with them to
| prattle on about their family life or could they perhaps be
| alone in there? Or any craftsman for that matter. The cobbler
| could just spend time making shoes, they didn't need to talk
| to customers for 12 hours a day constantly.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| > And don't assume socialization is easy for some class of
| "extroverts" who are dominating "introverts" into being full
| members of the organizations which they work for.
|
| I don't assume that - people tell me as much! I have close
| friends who assure me that socializing is _not_ hard work for
| them, and they'd yap all day if they didn't control
| themselves the same way that I would read or play games all
| day if I didn't control myself.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| None of that jives with any of my observations.
|
| In my immediate circle alone - my sister is a strong
| extrovert and always has been. She thrives on large groups.
| If she's stressed and wants to relax she'll go to a party or
| downtown dance club or hang out with a dozen acquaintances.
| She's been that way since tween. I bring her up because she's
| very upfront, and I trust and believe her, that social
| engagements alone are NOT, and never have been, hard work or
| effort. They're natural to her, she gains energy from them,
| she enjoys them tremendously, and gets recharged through
| them. This is not my external observation but her convincing
| expression. I know others like that.
|
| Then there's me :-). Lot of that, such as parties and dance
| clubs and even large groups of friends, sounds awful to me.
| Easy on assumptions though : As per my parallel comment, I've
| been a client-facing consultant for 20 years. I practice and
| teach soft skills and emotional intelligence at fairly high
| level at work. Having started as a hands-on techie for the
| first decade of my career, I haven't written a line of code
| since 2018 - ALL I do now is talk to and manage and coach and
| mentor people, meet with clients, etc. I spend about 7 hrs a
| day actively engaging people professionally.
|
| And it's still as draining as it is rewarding and enjoyable.
| 20 years of active practice and daily high level
| socialization has not meaningfully moved the needle on
| whether I gain energy from people, like my sister always has,
| or drain energy even with people I enjoy doing activity I
| like.
|
| Absolutely there's detail and granularity to this - I love
| teaching and have been a visiting professor for 3 years at
| local college. I love mentoring and coaching and do it daily.
| But at the end do the day I strongly crave alone time to
| recharge after social activities (which is what I call "being
| an introvert"), whereas I know people (I call them extrovert)
| who simply don't need that, at all. The notion that simply
| practice can change that, hasn't been the case for anybody I
| know.
|
| You can gain _skills_ and that 's indeed worthwhile! But that
| does not automatically alter the energy management situation.
|
| So my apologies, but your post is the most literal proof that
| some extroverts _don 't_ understand this, at all, and like
| Freud, make wild assumptions based on limited internal
| experience :-/. It's less of a capacity thing, which I'll
| agree may get expanded, and more of what does activity do and
| how does it draw on that capacity.
| antonvs wrote:
| > We are all descended from a long line of people who lived
| extremely social lives.
|
| This is an incorrect rationalization of your own prejudices,
| nothing more.
|
| > I wish y'all would accept that it's just hard, but worth
| it.
|
| You need to accept that your personal experience is not
| universal. It's one of the most basic realizations a thinking
| human needs to have.
| irobeth wrote:
| Is anyone else like me? A little socializing goes a really
| long way for me. I don't hate it, it's not exhausting, I can
| do it well, and I'm generally seen as a fun person to talk
| with.
|
| I'm an introvert but not because my "social battery" is
| discharged by socializing, but instead because I need to
| discharge in solitude
|
| I have unlimited social stamina and can do it forever, if by
| forever you mean that if I'm left in socializing without that
| necessary solitude I will spin off into mania and eventually
| get in serious trouble
| x0 wrote:
| That's definitely me. I'm generally not social, but I love
| clubbing, dancing and raves. Not just the music (top
| reason) or the physical aspect, but all the chatting with
| randoms too. I love the bullshit we talk, the temporary
| friendships and the places you find yourself at 5am. (and
| if anyone's wondering, nope, just alcohol)
|
| But I can go once and be good for months. See friends a few
| times a year as well, and I'm sorted.
|
| This is hard to explain, but I think it's about "who you
| are/how you see yourself". As if there's a tension in my
| head, "am I my thoughts, or am I how other people see me?"
| When I have been more social recently, I ruminate less and
| am generally happier, but I feel I lose a bit of "depth" in
| my psyche. I just feel kind of "thin", like a minor
| character in a TV show. Though writing that, maybe that's
| just depression trying to pull me back in.
| markeroon wrote:
| > Extroverts don't understand this concept of limited capacity
| for socialization.
|
| Othering >50% of your audience isn't the best way to make a
| point, and plenty of extroverts understand this concept
| perfectly well (myself as an example).
| khendron wrote:
| You are right, but it doesn't take many extroverts not
| understanding this concept to make it feel like it's
| everybody :)
|
| My mother, for example, is a serious extrovert. When I
| explained to her that socializing seriously drains me and I
| need to, for example, spend time alone after attending a
| party, her response was to ask if I'd seen a therapist about
| it.
| boogieknite wrote:
| my own experience as someone who used to be very
| extroverted:
|
| extroversion was meeting a social expectation. i had good
| social skills and people relied on me to carry social
| situations. i could entertain, organize and predict needs.
| i earned that expectation to feed my ego and then became
| trapped in a vicious cycle.
|
| then i had a fresh start after moving to a new city for
| grad school and have done my best to avoid any vocal
| leadership for anything because i know what can happen.
| organizational, behind the scenes leadership is ok. i
| wonder how many extroverts would rather be introverts given
| the opportunity and some introspection
| Dracophoenix wrote:
| > i had good social skills and people relied on me to
| carry social situations. i could entertain, organize and
| predict needs.
|
| Exactly how were you doing so? Were you able to predict
| these needs with "tells" or some other reference point?
| Did you get assessments wrong?
|
| > i earned that expectation to feed my ego and then
| became trapped in a vicious cycle.
|
| What caused you to think it wasn't worth it anymore?
| boogieknite wrote:
| > Exactly how were you doing so? Were you able to predict
| these needs with "tells" or some other reference point?
| Did you get assessments wrong?
|
| tells is a good way to put it. had a close friend from my
| hometown who lived for manipulating people and hanging
| out with him for 4 years taught me a lot. if he pulled
| some slick move or long setup on someone (including me)
| hed discuss the chain of tells and decisions if i asked
| him. boiled down mostly to confidence, conditioning, in
| group/out group. ugly stuff. the hook was his ability to
| manufacture novel, cheap thrills. this was enough to keep
| everyone interested in sticking around. he liked having
| cronies and i could do a b- version of him.
|
| ive made many wrong assessments. i ignored the mistakes
| and focused on successes to keep feeding my ego. to abuse
| an analogy id burn a bridge without thinking of it
| because i was already making a new friend to fill that
| spot.
|
| > What caused you to think it wasn't worth it anymore?
|
| after leaving that environment i noticed how relaxing it
| was to hang out with my own thoughts. i realized how i
| was just playing part i had cast myself in for attention
| and no other real benefit. i happened to take an Excel
| VBA class my senior year and became obsessed with
| programming. became more interested in learning to code
| than anything else. i noticed the benefits of avoiding
| attention. introverts probably learn these lessons early
| but i learned them late.
| coldtea wrote:
| Saying what some outliers do doesn't refute a statement about
| what most in a group do...
| litenboll wrote:
| I agree that making an absolute statement like that is not
| great. But surely, if you understand the concept, you also
| know that it's way too common for extroverts having zero
| understanding that some people need to be alone to recharge.
| They'll call you boring when you don't want to go out after
| being at the office for 8 hours already, for example. "Come
| on, it will be so much fun! What will you do when you get
| home? Play games lol? Come on get out in the world and meet
| some people!!" It's also very common for extroverts to assume
| that just because you need to recharge by not being with
| people that introverts don't like being with people in the
| first place.
|
| Social energy for me is a bit like physical energy. I love
| working out, but then I get tired and need to rest. In this
| analogy the extroverts somehow gets more energy while working
| out. That part is very hard for me to understand.
|
| The pandemic was a total eye opener for me. I always thought
| that (ever since I started working) I didn't like to go to
| after works, nor parties in the weekend. What I realized was
| that I really love those things, but that my social battery
| drains completely at the office so I needed the evenings and
| most of the weekend to keep running. Hybrid work has complete
| changed my ability to socialize outside work.
| more_corn wrote:
| This is only true for shallow connections. Introverts can talk
| for hours in deeply interesting and satisfying conversations.
| People they love and trust or people with whom they share a
| deep connection. Your task is to define and identify your tribe
| and work to surround yourself with those people. (Check in on
| your emotions regularly, identify who you connect with,
| identify how to replicate that) And then actively grow your
| tribe. One trick you will learn is that changing the way you
| perceive others changes your ability to connect with them.
| forgotoldacc wrote:
| Or not just limited amounts of time, but limited types of
| people.
|
| I have some friends who I have no trouble talking with all day.
| But with the overwhelming majority of people I meet, even if we
| get along well, I feel exhausted after too much interaction.
|
| Dealing with some types of "extroverts" is particularly tiring
| due to not caring about the weird formalities and talking
| around things that a lot do to seem "friendly". It's like
| dealing with an MBA--using pointlessly fluffy language to say
| pointless "pleasant" things and being so afraid to step on any
| toes that their statements are just boring and void of any
| substance. But there are also some extroverts who know how to
| gauge your personality in an instant and know whether you're
| the type who likes the fluffy stuff, or you want to jump right
| into talking about specific subjects.
|
| Then there are fellow introverts, and unfortunately, it becomes
| obvious how bad my own personality and conversation skills are
| with them. Lots of super brief answers and not engaging in any
| discussion. But I guess when you're the one talking to an
| introvert, even as an introvert, it's easy to come across as
| one of the aforementioned annoying extroverts.
| pydry wrote:
| I've never been able to distinguish this from simply being
| shy. More shyness means more stress in certain social
| interactions and stress is tiring.
|
| Moreover, I'm pretty sure you could take the most extroverted
| person around and take them out of their social element and
| they too would tire out.
|
| And vice versa, some of the most introverted people don't get
| tired out by their spouse.
| RoyalHenOil wrote:
| The difference between introversion and shyness is the
| difference between exhaustion and fear. They can influence
| each other (being afraid all the time is exhausting, for
| example), but they are ultimately separate emotions that
| need not coexist or have any relationship to each other.
| LouisSayers wrote:
| Even as an extrovert you get people who just ramble.
|
| In a social setting you can just tune out or move on, but in
| a work setting... It's extremely tiring because you're trying
| to catch what's important and distinguish from the
| unnecessary fluff.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| My sister is fairly extrovert, she gets energy from being with
| others. I'm a fairly typical introvert.
|
| Before kids she used to have parties with her ever-increasing
| circle of friends. She'd invite me, and I'd often say yes but
| as the day approached I had to force myself to go.
|
| One day, after one of her parties, she told me "everyone really
| likes it when you come, you're so good at making people feel
| seen".
|
| I hadn't thought about it before, but realized that I do tend
| to chat with most people. And I do ask perhaps non-typical
| "party questions", as I love to learn about new stuff so I like
| to find out what others are interested in and talk about that.
|
| Almost always I enjoy these events. However after such an even
| I'm so exhausted, and need a day or three on my own. If I don't
| get that then things don't go well.
| brookst wrote:
| The best description I've heard is "introverts are recharged by
| being away from people, extroverts are recharged by being
| around people". As an ambivert, I experience both... sometimes
| I really need to be in big groups and talking to lots of
| people, sometimes that exhausts me I need time away.
| mattm wrote:
| This is me. I've noticed that I generally shut down after about
| 90 minutes of being at a social event.
| interludead wrote:
| It seems to me that everyone has a limit
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| It's a spectrum of multiple things here so I agree that this is
| too simplistic. You might even label some of these things as
| features, not bugs.
|
| But the flip side is that the ability to mingle and talk to
| people is something that doesn't come equally naturally to
| everyone and some people feel uncertain of themselves when put
| in situations where they have to mingle with a lot of
| especially those type of people that are really good at that.
| Avoiding such situations is a natural response to such negative
| feelings. I've worked with an autistic colleague who explained
| to me the notion of these situations being mentally,
| emotionally, and physically draining. You'd think they'd be
| hermits! But the opposite is actually true. As it turns out
| this person had a rich online life that also spilled over into
| a personal life.
|
| As it turns out, being autistic also means that these people
| are on the receiving end of a lot of care and training. And
| some of that stuff actually works. I'm not saying it's easy.
| But this was a hard working person that was one of the most
| coacheable people I worked with and in many ways a lot more
| senior and mature than other people I've worked with.
|
| Socializing is a skill, that's actually something that you can
| work on and something that can be useful in professional
| situations. Or even in your personal life. Once you get better
| at it, you get to talk to nice people, meat new friends, etc.
| And once you build a relationship with such people you can meet
| them on your terms as well.
|
| There's also the related trait that some people need to be
| talking to people all the time in order to feel comfortable.
| They become uncertain when having to spend time with themselves
| even. That's probably something that they could work on as
| well. A lot of these people might be equally unhappy as some
| lonely people are.
| kubb wrote:
| It's quite treacherous to identify yourself with labels:
| introvert, extrovert, conscientious, conservative, liberal,
| empathetic, neurodivergent, etc.
|
| The act of putting a name on some traits that you have can seem
| liberating: I finally know what I am, and why I'm different from
| others, and that's fine.
|
| On the flipside, once you commit to a label, you lock yourself
| inside it, and instead of describing, it begins shaping what you
| are.
|
| It doesn't help that other people often try very hard to pin us
| down and assign labels to us forcefully, without considering if
| we're OK with that.
|
| The trick is to describe your behavior and separate that from
| yourself. Instead of being an introvert you can just say that my
| behavior was introverted, and that was a function of my internal
| psychological state.
|
| Also, be open to experimenting with what affects that state, and
| reflect on it. That will remind you that _you're not a constant,
| you're a function_ :)
| hgomersall wrote:
| Neurodivergence is a really useful concept in that it
| recognises that "typical" just means a certain cognitive
| profile. The problem I expect is that in certain fields (STEM?)
| it's actually more normal to be divergent from the mainstream.
| If you understand how your particular neural profile makes you
| understand and experience the world, you are in a good position
| to understand how it might be different to others.
|
| In a sense, attaching a special label to a particular
| neurodivergent profile is as problematic as assigning special
| significance to the "neurotypical" profile.
| rors wrote:
| I was diagnosed with dyslexia in my 40s. It's helped me
| understand why I struggle with certain tasks. Overall having a
| label has been a net positive.
|
| I'm hesitant to share my diagnosis with colleagues. I've been
| able to develop coping mechanisms and I feel like it doesn't
| impact my day-to-day. I don't want to cause disruption for
| those around me. I do have a friend with much more severe
| dyslexia and she does get the help she needs to be productive.
|
| I wish we could discuss these labels at work without baggage.
| It's all about consideration. Forcing everyone around you to
| change their behaviour around you to make yourself feel more
| comfortable is not being considerate. On the flip side
| enforcing strict working policies that prevent people from
| participating in the workplace is also not considerate.
| teddyh wrote:
| Regarding labels:
| <https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2015-05-23>
| Izkata wrote:
| Didn't expect to see EGS used as a reference here...
|
| There's a kinda funny extra level to labels and
| preconceived notions in that one: "sister" is a cover story
| for his female duplicate who was created from a tech/magic
| mishap early in that comic.
| SecretDreams wrote:
| Absolutely! The labels some may seek to feel a deeper sense of
| community and understanding end up becoming shackles.
|
| People don't need to just be one thing. We are fluid. And can
| and should have opinions and stances that wane over time.
| satisfice wrote:
| That's like saying it's treacherous to lock a door. After all,
| you might lose the key!
|
| I label myself in many ways. These labels are heuristics that
| define me to myself as well as others. These labels simplify
| the management of my life in a way similar to choosing a
| particular type of computer or a particular email client does.
|
| I am free to change my labels, but there is a cost to that.
| There is also a cost to avoiding labels.
|
| I wouldn't say it is a treacherous matter at all. It's a matter
| of personal economy and finding a comfortable way to relate to
| the world.
|
| I have sometimes used your heuristic of labeling behavior
| rather than identity. That can be useful, too. But however you
| try to do that, an implication hangs in the air: "You are
| obviously the kind of person who does things like that."
| mrweasel wrote:
| I think that one of the major issues is that people will use
| certain labels to help justifying behaving in a certain way, or
| avoid specific tasks and situations. E.g. a ton of people hate
| talking on the phone, for reasons that are beyond me, and they
| will justify this is being introvert or having some sort of
| social anxiety, while at the same time being outgoing and
| extroverted in pretty much every other situation.
|
| As I grow old I've stopped trying to put labels on my behavior.
| They rarely fit and society expects that I act or believe in
| certain ways depending on how those labels are generally
| perceived.
| lukan wrote:
| I hate talking on the phone, because of the missing body
| language and often bad lossy connections/bad microphones.
|
| Video calls I also almost never enjoyed, but maybe also
| because of technical reasons.
| polishdude20 wrote:
| As I've grown older I realize I'm all of the labels at
| different times of the day, different days, with different
| people etc. The more I take this to heart the more I grow and
| allow myself to have new experiences that a self label would
| have stopped me from doing because I'm not "that" kind of
| person.
| someothherguyy wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeling_theory
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attribution_bias
| ternnoburn wrote:
| Or, labeling yourself helps identify communities and systems
| that enable you to develop and grow more efficiently.
|
| I'm autistic, I discovered this partway through my adult life.
| Labelling it has done incredible things to build support
| infrastructure. I have more energy and less stress now.
|
| I'm queer, I discovered this as a young adult. It's connected
| me with whole communities. And most importantly, it's helped me
| discover and embrace the concept of a found family.
|
| I'm a leftist. (Not a liberal, I don't vote Democrat). This
| label has helped me find opportunities to engage in mutual aid
| I genuinely find more rewarding than any charity work I've
| done.
|
| Every time I add a label, I discover wonderful communities who
| help me explore myself, help me figure out what it means to be
| that label, and whether it's one I want to keep or shed.
|
| There's nothing wrong with building an identity. You have to
| have introspection and periodically evaluate it, but labels are
| fine.
| kubb wrote:
| Hmm, maybe you're just a labeler and I'm noncommittal? Just
| kidding, I'm glad it works for you.
| reedf1 wrote:
| These labels are quite obviously overused. Like most social
| characteristics, there is a spectrum. I can, and have, gone
| without seeing another person for months - and I've barely
| noticed. Now, I go into work five times a week. I do think I come
| off as odd to people; but I don't mind, I'm not proud of it, but
| I'm not embarrassed by it either. I am what I am. Earlier in life
| I put great effort into being "normal" socially, but with great
| effort also came enormous stress.
|
| I've not struggled with work or partners. There are lots of
| people who don't seem to mind the occasional oddity or silence in
| a group. Although, I do occasionally run into some self-righteous
| lot who try to "fix" me; but I find this condescending. There are
| lots of ways to be a person, and I am truly fulfilled with the
| way I am. Most friction this has ever caused is by someone
| wanting me to be some other way, usually theirs.
| jasdi wrote:
| Try framing it in terms of what you Need from people. Avoiding
| using "should" so much. It will help you become conscious of what
| your needs are. Confusing your needs with others needs is also a
| trap.
|
| We can only talk in terms of our Needs and why those needs are
| important to us. Anything else sounds like passing judgement and
| the reaction will be negative.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > Avoiding using "should" so much.
|
| I have two phrases I use often:
|
| "Should is not in my vocabulary"
|
| "Should is a lazy word"
|
| People use words like "should" and "must" to get around
| explaining their perspectives.
|
| I remember early in my career, I made a request for a feature
| to an employee in another team. Their SW was allowing users to
| specify parameters that made the whole model unphysical, and it
| was a burden on us users to always double check that parameter
| "X" was not negative. The SW wouldn't fail. It would simply not
| give correct results (and they wouldn't be wildly wrong that
| you'll quickly realize it).
|
| I requested that they simply not allow a negative value. We
| didn't always put one there - sometimes it was the output of
| another process, and I didn't want to continually check that
| our automation wasn't putting in unphysical values.
|
| The response? "The engineer should be diligent in making sure
| the value is not negative".
|
| Should is a lazy word. He didn't explain at all why he's
| rejecting the feature request. I would have preferred "Low
| priority - we simply don't have the time."
|
| Start counting how often someone uses the word as a way to
| avoid explaining him/herself.
| jasdi wrote:
| I am going to borrow that "should is a lazy word" slogan.
| Thanks!
| HPsquared wrote:
| For me the "energy gain" / "energy drain" question depends
| MASSIVELY on who I happen to be spending time with. So much so
| that recently I'm doubting if I even am an introvert. With the
| right people it's all good.
| ambicapter wrote:
| Yup, I've never bought into the intro/extrovert spectrum
| because it doesn't really seem to cover some pretty common
| cases.
| jghn wrote:
| This is me as well. For me it's not "socializing = energy
| drain" or the opposite. It's more about situations. In most
| situations I find talking with people, being in crowds, etc to
| be draining. But plop me into what is a relatively small list
| of "right circumstances" and it's the exact opposite.
| Jensson wrote:
| > In most situations I find talking with people, being in
| crowds, etc to be draining
|
| Then you are an introvert. They are talking about most
| situations, if there are some cliques you feel comfortable
| around then you are still an introvert.
|
| Extroverts has a small set of situations where they get
| drained instead. It isn't like anyone loves all human
| contact, its just some have an issue with most contact and
| others like it most of the time.
| happytoexplain wrote:
| I've always assumed people are largely the same, socially. I.e.
| we enjoy being with people we mesh with, and don't enjoy being
| with people we don't mesh with. The thing is, you can like
| people you don't mesh with. You might not have a single bad
| thing to say of a person, yet still have no interest in hanging
| out with them.
|
| And then, surprise, being forced to do things you don't enjoy
| is draining. Especially when it involves long periods of
| politely choosing your words and facial expressions to pretend
| you're not bored/frustrated.
|
| The only thing that makes an "introvert" is when the genre of
| person they mesh with happens to be more numerically rare.
| There is a ton of variety in humans. It doesn't mean anything
| significant that your "group" is small.
| spzb wrote:
| That's a very long post to say "I don't understand
| extraversion/introversion"
| noduerme wrote:
| Like so many things, introversion can now be both medicalized as
| a disorder _and_ celebrated as a lifestyle choice. This allows
| some people to pick whichever is psychologically soothing to them
| at the moment and use it to justify a lack of effort, as if
| socializing were not a skill that many people actually have to
| work on.
| zb3 wrote:
| How about "shutting up and leaving people alone" as a skill
| that many people should have to work on? Let's distribute the
| effort.
| noduerme wrote:
| Ah yeah, I forgot. Being outraged that other people have
| opinions that offend you is a good fallback if soothing
| methods 1 and 2 fail.
| jmyeet wrote:
| Articles like this are (IMHO) ableist and come from an extremely
| neurotypical perspective. "Just practice social skills" to me is
| like teling depressed people "just go outside and touch grass".
|
| There's not a single mention of ADHD or autism in here. My own
| understanding of this has evolved over the years.
|
| The first stage is to understand introversion / extroversion as
| simply to not like / like socializing, people, large groups or
| whatever. This is a shallow and pretty inaccurate understanding,
| one many people such as myself chafe against. I consider myself
| an introvert but like certain social activities so these labels
| never seem to quite fit.
|
| The next stage is the "social battery" understanding of
| introversion / extroversion. That is, social activities will
| either drain or charge your "social battery".
|
| After this you start to ask questions like "why does X drain my
| social battery?" and "what does draining a social battery really
| mean?" and you start to realize you're still describing symptoms,
| not causes.
|
| The key insight is that something drains your social battery
| because you're _masking_ [1]. So-called extroverts don 't need to
| mask. So-called introverts do.
|
| Yes, you can get better at following social norms and develop
| coping strategies for large groups, socializing with strangers,
| etc but all you're really doing is getting better at masking.
| That can be useful because it can change how other people respond
| to you but it's a bit like telling a depressed person to "just
| smile".
|
| [1]: https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-
| guidance/topics/behavio...
| rors wrote:
| I feel like a lot of these debates boil down dealing with
| discomfort. We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels
| they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable.
| The danger to never feeling challenged is that you don't grow.
| You get stuck in a rut and everyone passes you by.
|
| Part of dealing with discomfort is learning what your limits are.
| No one should put themselves in a situation with you have a
| breakdown. I find that a small amount of stress in my life is
| good and results in growth. But a huge amount is overwhelming
| which leads to burnout.
| jrs235 wrote:
| I agree. While some people are uncomfortable in social settings
| and/or talking alot, especially "small talk", other people are
| uncomfortable sitting in silence. BOTH types of people need to
| work on be more comfortable being uncomfortable. However, it's
| seen as rude to tell overs to just "be quiet for a bit and
| enjoy the silence" vs "you're socially awkward because you
| refuse to talk to me"...
|
| My father in law seems unable to sit queitly in group settings.
| He performs too much small talk in my opinion. And it seems
| merely to fill the silence since they are often the same
| questions day in and day out. Either his memory is very bad, or
| he's not actually listening, just wanting to make noise. I've
| given up wasting my breath (re)answering the same questions. It
| seems he doesn't truly care about what others think, say, or
| feel... otherwise he might work on committing answers to
| memory. And even when folks start talking, he interrupts a
| lot... I truly hope it's not poor memory.
| robocat wrote:
| Maybe he's trying to "give" as per https://www.experimental-
| history.com/p/good-conversations-ha...
| XorNot wrote:
| This is the sort of take that just sounds entitled, because the
| person giving it is doing so from a position of not having
| discomfort created for them by the actions of someone else.
|
| Like let's put this in context: replace "being an introvert"
| for "your friend flies you out to the forest, and then happily
| announces we're going to be hiking 20 km back to town. You
| really need to challenge yourself!"
| fluoridation wrote:
| >We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels they
| have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable.
|
| Huh? What a strange thing to say. Yeah, sure, you can't have
| that right exactly, simply because life is too unpredictable
| and from time to time stressors will come up, but surely
| someone has the right to build for themselves the conditions
| that minimize their stress and discomfort. Not wanting to be
| purposefully stressed and discomforted by others seems
| perfectly reasonable.
|
| >The danger to never feeling challenged is that you don't grow.
| You get stuck in a rut and everyone passes you by.
|
| Perhaps, but surely the choice of whether to live like that is
| the prerogative of each person.
| purple-leafy wrote:
| But who are you (or anyone for that matter) to decide that
| everyone should "grow" in areas X,Y,Z? I hate blanket
| statements like "We seem to be creating a society where
| everyone feels they have the right to not feeling stressed and
| uncomfortable".
|
| For example - I hate the modern office workplace 9-5 in-office
| bullshit. I know exactly what I want. I don't need to "grow"
| any more in this area. Can I do 9-5 in an office? Yes - but I
| fucking hate it and no amount of growth will change that. Why
| should I be forced to come into an office, for a job I do
| better at home, because Bob from management needs to be around
| people? I say to this - fuck Bob, Bob can go shit bricks.
|
| Another example - I am very comfortable with living without any
| social media, or a smart phone, or a Tv, all at the same time.
| But, you don't see me going around forcing people into this way
| of being, and then when they find it
| horrible/stressful/uncomfortable saying "well maybe we are
| creating a society where everyone feels they have the right to
| not feeling stressed and uncomfortable, fuck your tv"
|
| Instead - We are creating a society of non-thinkers,
| conformists, average-results-for-all, and dumb opinions like
| "well, I can deal with it - why can't you? Are you
| lazy/introverted/mentally-handicapped?"
|
| I think challenging yourself is great, FOR SHIT THAT MATTERS.
| And only you can dictate what matters, fuck Bob or anyone else
| that tries to impose "what matters" on you.
|
| The problem is, your statement sounds generalised to "challenge
| yourself in everything". I don't care for that, I care about
| challenging myself in a select few things of my choosing, I am
| my own man. I forge my destiny, I plow my path where I want to,
| not where society or Bob tells me.
|
| ------
|
| And you know what the result will be for Bob and I?
|
| Bob will not really grow as a person at all, his life will be
| all soft smoothed edges, not unique in any sense. Bob will be
| the same as everyone else with slight variations here and
| there, Bob will be boring, and at the end of Bobs life, on his
| deathbed he will say, "well, at least I didn't rock the boat!"
|
| I, and others like me, will grow, in a unique sense, jagged
| edges, sharp incline and deep depressions. I will say when I
| die "I wish I leant even more into rocking the boat, capsizing
| it, just to see what would happen"
| mcdeltat wrote:
| A convenient take, when you consider that (generally)
| extraverts will be less outside their comfort zone day to day
| than introverts, because our modern Western society values
| extraversion more. The article is giving vibes of "extraverts
| are great and inherently good people, introverts are bad and
| need to grow up!"
| billy99k wrote:
| "extraverts will be less outside their comfort zone day to
| day than introverts"
|
| This is a grass is always greener take, and definitely not
| true.
|
| "because our modern Western society values extraversion more"
|
| Everybody throughout humanity has valued extraversion more.
| This isn't something new. Humans are social creatures and
| people that are more social will be more successful at life.
| This will never change.
|
| "introverts are bad and need to grow up"
|
| This isn't necessarily the case. However, introverts need to
| figure out how to navigate the world, even when they aren't
| interested in socializing.
|
| I've worked with lots of introverts (I am a mix of both
| introvert and extrovert) in tech and it usually goes along
| with passive aggressive behavior (because introverts usually
| don't like confrontation) and other behavior that makes
| collaboration (which is needed in almost all business
| settings) a nightmare.
| Tainnor wrote:
| > I've worked with lots of introverts (I am a mix of both
| introvert and extrovert) in tech and it usually goes along
| with passive aggressive behavior (because introverts
| usually don't like confrontation) and other behavior that
| makes collaboration (which is needed in almost all business
| settings) a nightmare.
|
| I could just as well say that extraversion goes along with
| overly assertive and aggressive behaviour and other
| behaviour that makes collaboration a nightmare - such as
| refusing to write documentation or write proper tickets
| because "we can have a meeting instead". But I don't -
| because everyone is different and you can't just generalise
| like that. Being an introvert doesn't mean you're bad at
| communication or avoid confrontation.
| billy99k wrote:
| "I could just as well say that extraversion goes along
| with overly assertive and aggressive behaviour and other
| behaviour that makes collaboration a nightmare"
|
| I don't really see this very often. If someone isn't
| writing documentation or writing proper tickets, I don't
| think it has anything to do with being an
| extrovert/introvert.
|
| "because everyone is different and you can't just
| generalise like that. Being an introvert doesn't mean
| you're bad at communication or avoid confrontation"
|
| I've worked with lots of introverts over the years and
| although you may see it as a generalization, it's just my
| experience. In another way, you could call it my truth.
| Tainnor wrote:
| "Your truth" is very condescending though. It may be that
| the reason you're having trouble with introverts is your
| attitude towards them.
|
| Also how do you reconcile what you're writing here with
| what you wrote less than a month ago:
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42341572 ?
| niam wrote:
| I mostly don't see the point in these terms anymore. They were
| presumably created to categorize people but suck at it because
| nobody agrees where the boundaries of the category are, and the
| resolution on the term is so low for how many domains of
| personality it touches.
| blueflow wrote:
| This is a general problem with language.
| cdrini wrote:
| Yes, but some terms have more trouble with it than others,
| and if the term cannot converge on a clear, repeatable
| definition over time, questioning the utility of the term
| seems reasonable.
|
| Eg the terms "red" and "green" have largely converged on
| specific, useful meanings over time. Even more abstract words
| like "freedom" have mostly clear definitions (although
| definitely also have variance!). Introvert/extrovert I would
| argue have a LOT of variance in meaning when people use the
| words. And if people using the words can't agree on what
| they're actually communicating about, that might suggest that
| other or new concepts/words might be more useful.
| blueflow wrote:
| Language is constructive, basically people make it up and
| the "definitions" are none, they are actually after-the-
| fact formalizations. Whatever humans do to the word
| "Introvert" now will be its "definition" in 20 years.
|
| Print out some rainbow and ask people to draw the line
| between "red" and "not-red". That would prove that
| convergence didn't happen and would nicely show why it
| probably never will.
| cdrini wrote:
| I would argue if you asked 100 random people to draw a
| red Vs not-red line in that experiment you described,
| short of colour blindness, you would not see very much
| variance in the position of the line. That is why I
| believe the terms have converged on a meaning.
|
| In fact, I think it would be very hard to construct an
| experiment where people did not use the term red in a
| consistent fashion.
|
| I agree with you that formal definitions of words come
| after the fact. But meaning of words are always present;
| everyone who uses a word uses it with some understanding
| if its meaning, that they want to convey. And as words
| converge on a shared meaning, they become effective for
| communicating meanings. I'm arguing introvert/extrovert
| have been around for a long time, and have not converged
| on a consistent meaning. The terms have too much variance
| in meaning to be useful at communicating. One person uses
| the word and means something very different from when
| someone else uses the word. In 20 years time this
| variance will likely still be a problem. If the
| definition of a word shifts over time, that's ok as long
| as the variance remains low; it just means it has a new
| definition. But if the variance is high, it means the
| word isn't very useful/effective for communication.
| blueflow wrote:
| My impression was that the variance is high enough that i
| have to learn / swap new vocabulary with every new person
| in my social circles. I don't see the convergence you are
| talking of.
| cdrini wrote:
| Fascinating, that has not been my experience. Can you
| give some examples?
|
| Although I will note there is always some variance, the
| issue happens when it's too great, and some people's
| definition of a word is barely even overlapping with
| another person's definition of a word.
| blueflow wrote:
| Right here, right now: Your use of "definition" is
| foreign to me. I do not have definitions of words in my
| head, but understandings or interpretations.
|
| A definition is something that would be in a dictionary
| book.
| cdrini wrote:
| Haha fair enough! I use definition to mean essentially
| "what one sees as the meaning of a word". That "one"
| could be Webster or another dictionary. Or an individual.
|
| Your definition, is "the meaning of a word as specified
| in a dictionary".
|
| There's definitely variance between these two
| definitions, but I think it's a small variance, and we
| can largely still understand each other despite the
| variance. I would say that word has converged on a
| meaning. We could, if we decided it was necessary, create
| separate words, one to mean an exact definition as
| defined by an authoritative source, and one to mean how
| every individual defines a word. But English society has
| decided that distinction isn't worth creating a new word
| at this time.
|
| My argument is that introvert/extrovert have much more
| variance. When some people use the term, they use it to
| describe a behaviour, a temporary state, a constant
| personality trait, a spectrum, two perpendicular
| dimensions, a label on a loose set of behaviours, social
| skills, energy levels -- it's got so many facets! And
| dictionaries follow human usage -- so how is a dictionary
| supposed to pin this down to one or two concise
| definitions? That's my argument for why the terms are too
| variant to be exceptionally useful/meaningful.
| niam wrote:
| Slowness is a general problem with cars.
| blueflow wrote:
| Yes, expecting your car to go at the speed of sound is as
| misplaced as expecting words to be accurate. Self-stab?
| niam wrote:
| I mostly want useful. Accurate and supersonic would be
| great.
|
| I've identified an issue with my car's starter and my
| mechanic, in his wisdom, tells me that cars in general do
| that sometimes. It's perhaps a cruel irony in a
| discussion about usefulness.
| j_crick wrote:
| > They use introversion as an excuse to not grow.
|
| As if people who the author accuses of this sin have the same
| definition of, or feel the same about "growing" as the author...
| josefritzishere wrote:
| Perhaps it has been said but can we agree that it's ok to be
| introverted?
| bravetraveler wrote:
| Conversely, being too open/productive may also lead to burn out.
| The trap of participation
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| To introverts I would say: just now and then try to get out of
| your comfort zone. Most of the time, it will feel liberating and
| next time it becomes much easier.
|
| Step 1. Regularly talk to strangers. Most easily it can be done
| at public transport or at a shop. Start with places where you are
| waiting for a short time. Just ask a silly question or say
| something about the weather.
|
| Step 2 speak up in small groups. Just say something funny in
| between. Or ask a really curious question about what someone is
| saying.
|
| Step 3 take the lead in organizing a Teams call that anyways need
| scheduling. Be the MC or host. Just state what the meeting is
| about, what is to be accomplished and listen and note some things
| for in the summary.
|
| Step 4 do a talk in front of an audience. That will need some
| prep and some rehearsal, this one is quite difficult for myself
| as well.
|
| Everyting worth the effort, takes effort.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| All of your advice is for shy people, not introverts
|
| Being an introvert is not the same as being shy, and it is long
| past time that people stop conflating the two concepts
|
| You cannot "fix" being an introvert by practicing being social
| nothrabannosir wrote:
| could you humor me and exPlain why you think this? I'm
| neither shy nor introverted and I have only a casual
| understanding of either. If I take their comment literally, I
| guess the only part I would see being different is "it will
| feel liberating." But aside from that I do support the advice
| of people going out of their comfort zone, even if they hate
| it.
|
| I read GPs advice as "go to the social gym." For some people
| the gym ends up feeling good, others will hate it no matter
| what, but the advice is sound regardless.
|
| What do you think though?
| rukuu001 wrote:
| Shy == social situations are scary
|
| Introvert == social situations are strenuous
| brailsafe wrote:
| I think people need to reconcile their level of interest in
| making new friends or finding success in innately social
| environments with their level of willingness to overcome
| fear or exhaustion. I see a lot of people in this thread
| basically saying approx. "you don't get it, it's
| exhausting", and that's fine enough if you've determined
| you get no value (after exploring that prospect valiantly)
| in doing the thing that exhausts you, but it's not fine if
| you do get value out of something and aren't willing to
| exhaust yourself.
|
| Exhaustion for me is often a key component in anything I
| do. The friends that do find social interaction exhaustion
| and can't overcome it, I end up seeing once a year, and
| that seems to be ok with them, but if they were hoping for
| more, they need to practice being exhausted.
|
| Lastly, if you're not practicing the exhausting things,
| you're practicing the comfortable things, imho. It seems
| more true in more cases that people aren't willing to do
| anything that exhausts them, so they never walk far, they
| never go to the gym, they get fat and isolate themselves
| socially... until they realize that they've suddenly become
| squishy, dull, and lonely, then look for a quick fix that
| doesn't cost them anything, and maybe post to Reddit "Any
| friends out there? I'm an avid reader and single player
| video gamer that will sometimes come out for 30 min if it
| doesn't conflict with my nightly 5 hour solo stationary
| leisure time. We could start a group chat!". There's
| nothing inherently wrong with that, it doesn't need to be
| fixed, but it services what it services and it's worh
| thinking deeply about whether that is or isn't worth
| practicing.
| stormking wrote:
| It's very simple: As an introvert, I'm neither afraid of
| nor bad at social situations. I'm just not (that)
| interested.
| billy99k wrote:
| If this is the case, then why should we change the way
| everything currently works around the fact that you are
| capable, but not interested in socializing?
| HKH2 wrote:
| Not GP, but who's asking for that? I think all the
| blather is inescapable. I can't make people write an
| email instead of them wasting my time while they try to
| make sense of their own thoughts in a meeting. That's
| just how it is.
| edgarvaldes wrote:
| I am an introvert. I can talk to strangers, but prefer not to.
| I speak in small groups of friends or collegues, I am the lead
| in lots of calls, I even do training to big audiences. When in
| the moment, I can do it without hesitation, but in the end its
| always draining.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Good advice but we need to change its scope: All of that works
| if your problem is shyness or being self conscious. And indeed
| there's a strong Venn diagram between shyness, quietness, self
| consciousness, awkwardness, and introvertness. But it's not the
| same.
|
| I'm inherently all of those things. After 20 years in
| consulting though, including dedicated training and experience,
| nobody believes me anymore - I've built strong social skills
| and come off cheerfully comfortable at work and random social
| situations. I've been formally mentoring people emotional
| intelligence and soft skills for at least 6-8 years.
|
| But they are _exhausting_ , even those that have become second
| nature / automatic. And that issue is not becoming lesser with
| age or skills or experience. And the more people in a group,
| the more exponentially exhausting every experience is :-/
| bdangubic wrote:
| what you do - even if ALL the love for it is there in you -
| sounds absolutely exhausting to me (especially after as many
| years as you have been doing it) and I am about as extrovert
| as it gets, much like you are described your sister in the
| other comment.
|
| is it plausible that your feels are not as closely related to
| you being introvert and just nature of the career itself?
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Plausible, but the draining is not just at work. I love one
| on one and can generally spend large amount of time with
| individuals whose company I enjoy. But groups (say 4+
| including myself) are "draining" no matter the enjoyment.
| It's not that I'm "not a people person", I love hanging out
| with my friends and family! It's just that, with several
| people hanging out especially, I'm likely the first one to
| leave and find a couch or bed or comfy chair somewhere to
| read a book or play an instrument or video game or whatever
| to "recharge".
|
| Some people misinterpret that as not enjoying hanging out
| with people but that's not it. It's more like, hanging our
| with people is as physical of an activity for me as biking
| or swimming or rock climbing. I love it... But I get tired
| eventually :-)
|
| (analogy breaks down quickly tough - per another thread
| here though, unlike the physical activities here,I haven't
| really been able to increase my "social stamina". Social
| skills, hugely! Social stamina, not really)
| bdangubic wrote:
| fascinating!
|
| I totally understand even though I don't actually
| understand (if that makes any sense :) )
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| Today I learned, being skilled at something does not mean it
| has to become less exhausting. Could it be that your acquired
| social skills somehow go against your 'nature'? I wonder if
| there is social research on this subject.
| iio7 wrote:
| You clearly don't know what it means to be introvert. It's not
| a choice, it's almost like a phobia.
| MoreMoore wrote:
| As an introvert, what does being an introvert have to do with
| phobias? If you have a phobia for being around other people,
| this is not being introverted.
| MoreMoore wrote:
| As an introvert, I have no idea what you're talking about.
|
| As an introvert, talking to strangers is in my comfort zone.
| Being an introvert has nothing to do with whether I'm able to
| talk to strangers.
|
| As an introvert, speaking up in small groups isn't a problem. I
| do it all the time when I feel like it or when I feel it's
| necessary. Again, what does being an introvert have to do with
| this?
|
| As an introvert, I regularly find myself leasing things because
| other people don't want to step up. This has nothing to do with
| introversion/extraversion.
|
| As an introvert, I do talks in front of an audience. Not a
| problem.
|
| Learning all this was valuable, but none of it solved my
| introversion. Because it's not something that can or needs to
| be fixed.
|
| What it did fix was my shyness, lack of confidence and
| insecurity around other people. But I'm still introverted
| because it still requires me to exert a lot of energy, which
| can only be regained if I'm alone.
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| After reading all that, I think I'm an introvert as well.
| Though people tend to label me extrovert.
|
| Even though getting downvotes, there's a lot to learn on HN,
| even about myself!
| whatevs2025 wrote:
| As an introvert I do these things - actually search for
| opportunities to do a talk or to do public presentation works.
| This works (and you can find me on YouTube in these situations)
| but it doesn't get easier with time. It actually feels like
| with time it gets harder to find the energy to do this again.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I regularly say yes to work dinners and such that I don't
| personally want to attend. That sort of thing is far outside my
| comfort zone, and that's exactly why I do it.
|
| It's good exercise to pretend to be outgoing and chatty for an
| evening. Like any other skill, you get better at it with
| practice! And the author here is _so_ right: almost everyone else
| at these things besides the salespeople are probably also
| introverts. I can promise you that you won't be the only one
| there. I never am.
| pizza234 wrote:
| As a person who was very introvert at social gatherings, and
| the polar opposite now, I'm now convinced that being extrovert
| is not a skill or an "area" (outside the comfort zone), but
| rather a state of mind.
|
| It's certainly an art and a science to be a good
| conversationalist, but being in that certain state of mind is
| "a lot %" of what's needed, and it actually takes no energy or
| comfort - although as other state, natural introverts enjoy
| this state for a certain amount of time. It can also take a lot
| to "get there", though.
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| The core problem is that introvert/extrovert has little or no
| bearings on someone's social ability.
|
| Introvert/extrovert is the method that people use to recharge
| their energy. It has nothing to do with social ability
| despite the terms getting hijacked for that.
|
| Signed, an extremely introverted person who talks and
| interacts a lot in social situations.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| I don't think it's so simple. Brains are complicated and
| everyone is different.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| That's fine but how people term introvert to be reclusive
| is inaccurate.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I strongly agree with that. I like being around people
| when I'm not expected to engage with them. I'll go to a
| ball game or a crowded holiday mall any time. I like the
| throngs busily enjoying themselves around me. I'm an
| introvert but I'm not even a little reclusive.
| bdangubic wrote:
| this is like saying you know all about how it is to be an
| orphan because you read _Oliver Twist_
| zdragnar wrote:
| When I first met one of my friends, I had assumed he was
| very extroverted from observing him at work. It was only
| when I really got to know him that he is, in fact, just
| as introverted as I am, if not more- something he even
| told me after we got to talking one night.
|
| The parent post is correct: extroversion and introversion
| is about how you feel being in groups, not how you act.
| buran77 wrote:
| > but being in that certain state of mind is "a lot %" of
| what's needed, and it actually takes no energy or comfort
|
| Your mileage may vary but it certainly takes energy to
| maintain a state of mind which doesn't come naturally to you.
| This is bound to affect your comfort eventually. Since there
| are degrees of intro/extroversion, it may be easier for some
| people to will themselves across that divide.
|
| It's like floating on water. Some do it naturally,
| effortlessly, they even rest and relax while doing it. Others
| have to flail around under the surface to do it, putting in
| effort and consuming energy.
| saghm wrote:
| This is an important point. Most people who I interact with
| would probably characterize me as an extrovert because I'm
| often super talkative and energetic, but the only reason I
| act like this is because I get time to "recharge" every day
| by spending time without interacting with anyone (other
| than my wife, who is the one person that doesn't take
| "energy" for me to spend time with). Even spending time
| with close friends and family members is something I need
| occasional breaks from to maintain my sanity.
|
| I often describe this concept to people as a social
| "battery"; I need time to charge it (almost) every day in
| order to have anything to spend the next day, but it also
| can ruin the capacity if I charge it for too long while
| it's at max. Figuring out the right balance is key,
| especially when other circumstances can affect how much
| energy it feels like is expended by socializing (e.g.
| ambient stress level from other parts of my life.
| boogieknite wrote:
| i treat it like exercise or eating salad. i do it because i
| know its good for me. also noticed that it seems like a lot of
| people there have the same idea.
|
| just like exercise, i dont push it too far. ill take a break.
| ill excuse myself and say, "i need to cool off" then go outside
| for a minute. most people seem to get it.
|
| maybe the nature of the people i hang out with, but the
| salespeople type stand out sore-thumb-style and their
| compliments and shallow conversation often come across as
| awkward compared to the genuine interest in listening and
| sharing what we have learned in work or personal life.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| Ever since I stopped doing this I've been much happier. Now
| that I'm old I don't feel pressure to conform to social norms,
| I just do whatever I want. If that means I don't see anyone
| else for weeks who cares. In my youth I felt so much pressure
| to be social and it's just not what I want to be doing.
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Pressure to be social is like pressure to stay fit. If you
| don't put any effort it atrophies.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| If you have a family already what's the payoff though. I
| never get any great feelings from social visits, I just do
| it to be an upstanding member of society and so my daughter
| has friends.
| semireg wrote:
| It might be nice to have a social safety net when you age
| and your children leave you.
| dgfitz wrote:
| Why? What would be nice about it?
| lupire wrote:
| Not being alone.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| But what if I don't mind being alone? Or even prefer it?
| dyauspitr wrote:
| Wife should still be around.
| Gigachad wrote:
| That's not guaranteed.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| It's not but very likely atleast in my case.
| bawolff wrote:
| if you're staying fit because you are being pressured, you
| probably aren't having any fun. Staying fit by doing
| something you enjoy (hiking, sports with friends, whatever)
| you are probably going to have more fun, and stick with it.
|
| If you only socialize with people you don't like because
| you are "forced"/"pressured" to, you aren't going to have a
| good time.
|
| Socializing is supposed to be fun, if you turn it into a
| job you hate, you aren't going to get the benefits of being
| social
| Barrin92 wrote:
| >if you're staying fit because you are being pressured,
| you probably aren't having any fun
|
| Not everything in life is about "having fun". Pushing
| yourself beyond your own comfort zone, or being pushed,
| is by definition not going to be enjoyable in some
| superficial sense, but it's the only way you'll ever
| actually engage with anything new or unfamiliar and grow.
|
| Nobody who is grossly out of shape enjoys showing up at
| the gym the first time, but even though they don't enjoy
| it, it will benefit them all the same and eventually they
| may very well come to like it. It's the same with
| education, decades of trying to make education "fun" have
| resulted in large amounts of people being unable to
| absorb anything that isn't in some trivial sense
| gratifying.
| kstrauser wrote:
| And further, you never know if you'll like something
| until you try it. That's kind of universally true. The
| idea of going to a gym isn't appealing at all if you
| describe it objectively: you're going to go to a large
| room filled with heavy hunks of metal and sweating
| strangers. You're going to lift them up and down until
| you can't do it anymore. Then you'll drive home. That's
| not exactly appealing. And yet, despite everything, I
| love the way I feel when I'm working out.
|
| It's perfectly A-OK not to like going to social outings
| with others. But until you've tried it, you don't
| actually know whether you like it or not.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| Unlike being fit, being social doesn't have any inherent
| benefit in terms of health. It's merely a preference.
| bawolff wrote:
| That's probably not true. Lonliness is linked to both
| physical and mental health issues.
|
| However being social and not being lonely is not the same
| thing.
| Izkata wrote:
| Loneliness and being alone aren't the same thing either.
| cdrini wrote:
| That's not quite true, social isolation has been shown to
| be correlated with an increased risk of dementia and
| cognitive impairment in older age. And I reckon there are
| other studies that show correlations with other health
| outcomes.
| swat535 wrote:
| I suppose it depends on the person but the older I get,
| the less patience I have for people and the more I rather
| focus on myself, hobbies and quiet time. I don't have
| time for fake social gatherings or pretending like parent
| does.
|
| If I meet someone genuine I will engage with them,
| otherwise I much rather to keep to my own devices..
| ethbr1 wrote:
| I'd hazard that's exactly why it's inportant: mental
| exposure to uncomfortable and novel situations.
| cdrini wrote:
| As a thought experiment, jumping back to the parallel
| with fitness, is your statement the same as saying "I
| suppose it depends on the person, but the older I get,
| the less patience I have for eating healthy and
| exercising, and the more I'd rather focus on eating food
| I like and spending time on my sedentary hobbies."? As
| in, it's 100% your choice to live your life that way, but
| you also have to accept that there are health
| repercussions associated with certain life styles.
|
| Side note: I'm not sure what you mean by a "fake" social
| gathering. But for me, I've been taking part in a debate
| society, and some French meetups lately to socialise
| more, and I've loved it. Everyone is genuine in that
| they're there for a specific shared interest. And I've
| found that my thoughts/ideas are greatly improved from
| the ability to debate with others. Sometimes I'll realise
| I have a huge blind spot, and need to reject an idea.
| Sometimes I'll realise my idea had a short coming and
| that it needs to be adapted. Either way it just improves
| my thinking.
| achierius wrote:
| I don't think this is true, unless perhaps if you use a
| very narrow definition of 'inherent'. e.g.
| https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3150158/
|
| Reduces mortality, increases happiness, cardiovascular
| health, etc.
| kstrauser wrote:
| FWIW, I feel no pressure at all to do this. I want to get
| better at it purely because I want to get better at it. One
| practical benefit is that non-work social settings get
| easier, too. When I'm around a bunch of my kids' friends'
| parents, who are perfectly nice people who probably have a
| lot in common with me and I'll probably enjoy being around,
| it's nice to have some practice making conversation with a
| roomful of strangers.
|
| I'm not doing this for work. I do it for me.
| fader wrote:
| You might be surprised at how many salespeople are also
| introverts. Through years of being an (introverted) sales
| engineer, I've learned that outgoing socialization can be tough
| even for salespeople. Some of the most successful sales people
| I've worked with need to go quietly recharge for a day after a
| ton of meetings, just like I do. The biggest differentiator
| there is that the ones who can't manage it with a smile don't
| last long.
|
| Relationship building in sales, like all skills, can be
| learned, even if it's draining.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| > _Like any other skill, you get better at it with practice!_
|
| Johnny Carson was an introvert. [0]
|
| If he could be a professional-calibre conversationalist, then I
| refuse to believe most introverted people can't at least reach
| the passable cocktail party level.
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Carson#Personal_life
| compiler-guy wrote:
| No one is claiming that it can't be done. Just that
| introverts don't like to do it and generally don't find it
| worth it.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| I did and do, and I have several introvert friends who also
| found it an incredibly useful and fulfilling life skill.
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| Introversion is not the same as shyness.
| ternnoburn wrote:
| It sounds like you want to attend them. You've clearly laid out
| the reasons why you find them valuable to you. That's something
| you "personally want to attend."
| skizm wrote:
| New jobs I accept all social invites for the first year to give
| off the impression that I'm friendly and outgoing and you
| should totally give me the benefit of the doubt when you're
| unconsciously evaluating me as a teammate! Then I start weening
| myself off social outings, and by end of year two I've always
| got something coming up. Darn! Wish I could make it!
|
| I have to keep my worksona turned on 40+ hours per week
| already, please no more...
| kstrauser wrote:
| That's just smart career management, is what that is.
| jancsika wrote:
| > While the reality is, it takes effort to communicate and drains
| energy for everyone.
|
| This is a low effort take that depends on the ambiguity of
| language to sound true.
|
| "Drain" for the author apparently means literally using up a
| finite amount of human energy, concentration, and willpower.
| That's a truism.
|
| "Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a muscle
| tension clock that will eventually cause a headache to a
| straight-up panic attack that could take hours/days to recover
| from.
|
| It's probably even worse for young people who are introverts and
| haven't been taught how to say no or set boundaries. (I remember
| explaining to some college-age people that saying no is a skill,
| and they looked at me like I had just revealed to them that, with
| enough practice, humans can actually fly.)
| xvector wrote:
| > "Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a
| muscle tension clock that will eventually cause a headache to a
| straight-up panic attack that could take hours/days to recover
| from.
|
| Unless you are being hyperbolic with your usage of the word
| "panic attack", having one during social events is not "being
| an introvert," it's a medical condition.
|
| I am an introvert and have also had unrelated panic attacks.
| Panic attacks effectively paralyze you, you feel a deep and
| uncontrollable sense of doom, often accompanied by
| palpitations. Sometimes you feel like you can't breathe.
|
| If caused by social interaction, that's not a normal thing to
| experience, even for introverts. That is in the territory of
| actual medical issues: panic disorder, social anxiety disorder,
| etc.
| sabellito wrote:
| Absolutely bizarre that you're being downvoted. Having panic
| attacks is not a normal reaction to any normal human
| situation, gp absolutely should look for medical and
| psychological help.
| tapland wrote:
| So if the person has, let's say, autism, and will not be
| able to endure this for longer than a few hours before
| becoming completely overwhelmed.
|
| What do you want these people to do, since they aren't
| allowed to respond how they might do? When and where are
| they welcome in society?
| ironhaven wrote:
| Hello, person with autism here. If I am tasked with
| social interaction for too many hours I may no longer be
| able to focus on people. I may zone out and in order to
| get into focus someone may have to bother me in an
| uncomfortable way. This could, depending on the person
| who is on the autism spectrum, escalate to physical
| violence in an extreme scenario.
|
| I don't think this describes "a panic attack". I think
| "completely overwhelmed" is a real thing to be
| accommodated and is separate from a social anxiety
| triggered panic attack
| tapland wrote:
| Absolutely. Just wanted to point out that having
| difficulty being in a social and potentialy rowdy and
| loud environment for hours can still remain after the
| "seek psych/medical help" advice that was thrown out!
| bravetraveler wrote:
| It's a normal reaction to trauma, a psychological condition
| - not medical. I'd guess that's where the strife is driven.
| You make a better point to cover the gamut
| ternnoburn wrote:
| I have them, I'm autistic. It happens and I have support
| infrastructure in place to make it less intrusive.
|
| It's a disability, but I sorta reject the framing that I'm
| "not normal". Mostly because it feels a bit more culturally
| loaded? I can't articulate it effectively, but like, what I
| experience may actually be extremely normal ... for folks
| with autism. So, maybe "not neurotypical", maybe?
| sabellito wrote:
| Sure, but I'm commenting on the fact that gp believes
| that having panic attacks in social interactions is just
| an introvert trait. Parent comment and I are arguing that
| it's not.
| robocat wrote:
| > haven't been taught how to say no or set boundaries
|
| For more than a few of my friends, assertiveness and
| confrontation are incredibly unnatural and stressful for them.
| For some people saying no and setting boundaries isn't easy for
| them to learn: I'm not sure I've ever seen it taught. One
| socially skilled friend got a swor serious panic attack from
| having to try and be assertive.
|
| You are implicitly accepting people can be introverted, but
| imply that people can just learn to say no.
| xvector wrote:
| > Ram learns about Shyam's promotion and feels a bit
| disappointed. He goes back home and says to himself "I am not an
| extrovert", consoles himself and moves on with life.
|
| I have seen this play out time and time again at nearly every
| company I've worked at and even every team I've TL'd.
|
| I used to be a "proud introvert" myself. The "proud introverts"
| often feel wronged in these situations, struggling to understand
| that communication is just as valid and critical of a skill as
| writing code.
|
| Accepting that I didn't need to make "being an introvert" my
| identity, and learning how to communicate, _skyrocketed_ my
| career.
| cvoss wrote:
| > "Hey man, what's up? Why don't you approach and talk to a few
| here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe
| talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how
| he got started."
|
| This is completely wrong-headed on the part of the host of this
| gathering. The correct move is "Hey, man, it looks like you don't
| have a lot of connections in this room. Let me introduce you to a
| friend of mine... [Friend], this is Aditya. [Say something
| interesting about Aditya to justify Friend's attention.] You two
| have [X] in common. Aditya, I have known Friend for [Y] years.
| Ask him about [Z]. etc." The host mediates the introduction for a
| respectful amount of time, and then walks away.
|
| That is the function and, truthfully, the responsibility, of a
| host at a gathering where not everybody knows everybody.
|
| Whereas, some people would find it impertinent for a stranger to
| barge in on a conversation and introduce themselves as if they
| were important enough to deserve attention. Maybe they are, but
| they may be supposed to let somebody else do that for them. And
| likewise, many people feel slimy going around putting on an air
| of self-importance. It is hardly fair to characterize this kind
| of sensibility as "pride" or a feeling of "disgust" toward other
| guests.
|
| Read some Jane Austen for more.
| BeetleB wrote:
| Fully agree. I read that intro section and closed the page. I
| didn't want advice from someone who could be so poor at this,
| _and not even realize it_. Instead of introspecting about his
| own contribution to the problematic interaction, he went ahead
| and made it the other guy 's fault.
| fluoridation wrote:
| Honestly, I'm trying to put myself in Aditya's shoes, and I
| can't help but feel instant rejection at both the OP's and your
| approach. If I'm sitting by myself at a gathering it's probably
| because I'm overwhelmed by all the strangers in the room and
| can't (or don't feel like) figure out how to start a
| conversation with someone. The last thing I want in such a
| scenario is for someone to come and thrust me into a
| conversation with someone else. I can't see either myself or
| the other poor sap you involve in this enjoying the
| interaction. Now, if _you_ want to come talk to me, _by
| yourself_ , so I can get into a social mood, that's a different
| story.
| some_furry wrote:
| As an introvert, I'd probably appreciate more of:
|
| "Psst, there's a quiet room with a coffee maker if you're
| feeling exhausted or overwhelmed. Want me to show you the way?"
| and then not another word.
|
| If I'm overwhelmed at a social event, I need at least half an
| hour of quiet time. Putting me on the spot _at all_ just makes
| things worse.
|
| (And if I'm not overwhelmed, I know how to play the part for
| _at most_ 3 hours in a day, so you probably won 't notice.)
| englishspot wrote:
| for me I've realized my problem isn't introversion/extroversion,
| my problem is just that I have trouble thinking on the fly. or
| even just speaking off-the-cuff.
| jexe wrote:
| These labels do as much to hurt ourselves as they do to try and
| help.
|
| The truth (for me at least) is that whether I'm comfortable and
| energized by others depends on my level of comfort with the
| people, my familiarity with the situation, my mood, the general
| vibe, etc.
|
| "Being" one or the other feels like a limiting belief that we can
| hide behind if we're not aware of what it's doing to us.
| BhavdeepSethi wrote:
| I often think about this post when people call themselves
| introverts. I wonder how much is this a function of who you are
| (genes, etc.) vs the environment a person was exposed to in
| formative years. I've never seen a study about this. (I've read
| Quiet, which is a book that gets quoted by introverts a lot)
|
| "A lot of you guys are not true introverts you were just
| expressive children who didn't get the attention you wanted or
| deserved so you got comfortable at keeping everything inside and
| entertaining your own thoughts"
|
| Source: https://x.com/SchrodingrsBrat/status/1834583804016484637
| lolinder wrote:
| For the record, we introverts get very tired of having to
| justify ourselves to extroverts who constantly question our
| existence. It seems to happen far more often with introversion
| than with other differences.
|
| People don't tell those who prefer cold to heat that it's just
| because of the way they were raised and that they should really
| build up their heat tolerance. People don't tell those who
| dislike cilantro that it's an acquired taste and they should
| really put in the effort. People who try to tell LGBT folks
| that they should just try to be straight get straight-up
| pilloried. But for some reason people feel that it's okay to
| tell introverts that they probably are just imagining that they
| have real differences from the average person that can't just
| be fixed by trying harder.
| ozim wrote:
| _Well, now, don 't you tell me to smile You stick around, I'll
| make it worth your while_.
|
| Sorry but fast thinking is needed for a lot of socialization. No
| one sticks around if you are not interesting and people judge
| harshly everyone who is taking time to build up response.
|
| I can throw in some jokes and in general be funny but with people
| that I am familiar with .
|
| Not so much meeting strangers.
| casey2 wrote:
| If someone believes that they have nothing to gain from
| interacting with a group then who are you to tell them that they
| should do it anyways for growth? You could make the same exact
| argument about any form of interaction. Don't want to interact
| with the node.js ecosystem? Why not? You will learn so much and
| grow as a person. Will I? Really? How about a book on group
| theory? Sure I will probably learn something, will it be useful?
| maybe, more so than the class I already took on it in college?
| who knows, certainly not you more than me.
|
| Also the idea that people just want to sit in front of the TV and
| not learn anything new or grow is completely insane and usually
| only comes up when they aren't learning the thing that you want
| them to know. If it appears like that it's only because they are
| stuck in some system, much like the one you propose, that wants
| them to learn unactionable knowledge
|
| What is the Appearance of Interaction? Just because it's very
| obvious that you are interacting with some group doesn't mean
| that you interact with that group more than some other group that
| you don't know about. If you go to a new website your browser
| runs some interesting scripts, much like a TV show this attracts
| your attention, eventually you decide JavaScript is important and
| you should learn about it. You have entered the JavaScript
| fandom, it doesn't matter to you if gravity acts on you
| constantly or a krebs cycle complete in your body (~10)^~21 times
| a second, JS is clearly more useful to know about, right?
| molochai wrote:
| At the risk of sounding like a jerk, the Ram/Shyam story -- it
| sounds like one of those people is good at getting their job done
| and works well to solve hard problems independently... and the
| other person over-relies on other people via collaboration, and
| compensates by making excessive "high visibility" noise. One of
| those people is solving critical bugs, the other one is... doing
| demos for other teams. It's sort of telling Shyam prefers work
| broken down into small, digestible, predictable chunks.
|
| It's a shame management (in my experience) seems to consistently
| value Shyam's style. Too much of either working style leads to
| problems. Excess in the first leads to overlap, duplicated work,
| and incogruent pieces that don't fit together. Excess in the
| second leads to a lot of people talking quite a bit about work
| while nothing tangible or truly difficult gets done.
| sega_sai wrote:
| I don't find this convincing as an introvert. Dealing with
| shyness or being an introvert required me reading a few books and
| techniques how to deal with it. In the end that helped, but it
| was not as easy as just 'try harder' and took a few years. I also
| wish I realised earlier that it was an issue that needed
| addressing, but no one told me that. Overall the article seems to
| trivialize the issue in my opinion.
| azan_ wrote:
| Can you recommend some books you've read? Struggling with the
| same thing
| molochai wrote:
| Not who you asked but:
|
| - Quiet - Susan Cain (introversion in general)
|
| - Cues and Captivate - Vanessa Van Edwards (business-focused
| social skills)
|
| - The Gentle Art of Verbal Self-Defense at Work - Suzette
| Haden Elgin (I actually didn't enjoy this one too much,
| didn't finish it, but I think that was a personal mismatch)
|
| - How to Win Friends and Influence People - Dave Carnegie (a
| lot of the techniques are very, very dated and transparent
| when used today... but it's pretty foundational and worth a
| glance anyway)
| sega_sai wrote:
| Overcoming social anxiety and shyness by Butler was one of
| the books that was pretty good.
| 65 wrote:
| Dear God please scale down the size of this website. Everything
| is too big!
| paulmooreparks wrote:
| > everyone should be an extrovert at work
|
| No, we shouldn't. I'm not an extravert, and I don't want to be an
| extravert. I don't ask extraverts to be introverted, so don't ask
| me to be what I am not. Being introverted doesn't mean that I'm
| anti-social or incapable of cooperating with others.
| joe_the_user wrote:
| Absolutely agreed. No one should be obligated to _be_ anything
| at work. At work, you should accomplish things. You should be
| able to work with others but you shouldn 't have any obligation
| for emotional or whatever other response.
| more_corn wrote:
| I'm not an extrovert, but behaving in an extroverted way is
| hugely rewarding. Talking to strangers, befriending fellow
| travelers, commiserating with colleagues.
|
| If you're a manager it's literally part of the job. Asking how
| people are doing isn't useless small talk, your job is to keep an
| eye out for things that might be hindering the effectiveness of
| your team so that you can catch problems early and respond to
| them. "How are you doing" suddenly becomes a serious and
| interesting question with real ramifications.
|
| Theres a common misconception that extroverts don't like people
| or are not interested in people. We do and we are. Just in a
| different way. Every introvert has had a best friend, maybe a
| lover, maybe someone they were just comfortable talking with. The
| problem is that most social interactions feel shallow, banal and
| pointless. But I think that's only before you look at it deeply.
|
| Buried deep in each stranger is the potential to be a best
| friend, a lover, a future colleague, a business partner, or just
| someone who teaches you something important about an interesting
| thing you've never thought to study.
|
| Your task as the introverted traveler is leave the door open
| enough to connect with each person enough to get at the deeply
| interesting stuff inside. Who are you and what makes you tick?
| What lights you up? What interest or knowledge do you have that I
| might find compelling?
|
| I assure you everyone has something even if they don't know it.
| Approaching each social interaction with the faith that something
| important can be discovered is the introverts path to benefits of
| extroverted behavior.
|
| You're welcome. You can thank me later when you meet me in
| person, but only if you're able to figure out through
| conversation that I was the one who provided you this gem.
| bawolff wrote:
| > On this one particular night, a lot of people were bonding, and
| it was amazing. But then I saw this young boy sitting in the
| corner by himself. Let's call him Aditya. It was a bit dark and
| Aditya was trying to just get by, unnoticed. He looked
| overwhelmed and disinterested. I went up to him with a big smile
| and a lot of kindness, and said - "Hey man, what's up? Why don't
| you approach and talk to a few here? They are friendly, you know.
| You like Open Source, so maybe talk to that guy (pointing to a
| senior of mine) and ask him how he got started.".
|
| > His response that day still echoes in my ear. It felt like a
| voice coming out of a closed heart. And my words had fallen flat
| on him. He said, with a smirk, "I am not an extrovert".
|
| Maybe i am reading into this, but the author comes across as an
| asshole to me. You can see the condescension dripping from the
| prose.
|
| To me it sounds like the author was being a busy-body and came
| off as rude. Introverted kid wanted him to mind his own business.
| mattlondon wrote:
| It always bothers me how people frame it as a binary either-or
| thing.
|
| I think the reality is way more subtle, with a wide spectrum that
| is highly context dependent.
|
| I don't think labelling someone/one self as one or the other or
| trying to "be an extrovert at work" or whatever is productive or
| healthy.
| thayne wrote:
| This feels like the author has made the assumption that since
| they are an introvert, all introverts are like them.
|
| However, I think that introversion, like most things is a
| continuum, not binary. Take the characterization of introverts in
| the article: "They would rather sit in front of the computer than
| go out during the yearly college social fest." For me it isn't
| just a matter of "I'd rather be in front of a computer", going to
| a big social encounter is _extremely_ stressful. And the idea of
| approaching and talking to someone I don 't know fills me with
| terror.
|
| That isn't to say that I never go to such activities, or try to
| go out of my comfort zone, but it is much, much more difficult
| for me than even other introverts.
|
| If I were Aditya in the introductory story, telling me I should
| go talk to people would not be helpful, ot would just reinforce
| my insecurities and anxiety. What _would_ be helpful is if
| someone, especially someone I at least knew a little came and
| said something like, "Hey, I hear you like Open Source, can I
| introduce you to <person>, I think they would like talking with
| you?" And then introduce me, and initiate the conversation.
|
| And there are also difference in how introversion manifests. One
| person might do fine in social interactions, but is terrified
| public speaking or giving presentations, and someone else is the
| other way around.
| mp05 wrote:
| > And the idea of approaching and talking to someone I don't
| know fills me with terror.
|
| I think this is social anxiety and not to be confused with
| introversion.
| thayne wrote:
| Sure, they aren't quite the same thing, but they are related.
|
| And I used an extreme example. In general, among introverts,
| some have a high tolerance for social interactions, some have
| a very low tolerance and there are people everywhere in
| between. Or to use the terminology of introverts having to
| expend energy to interact with other people, you could say
| different people have different fuel efficiencies.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| My SO and me are both introverts, and we've talked a fair
| bit about it. We both enjoy social events every now and
| then, but we do need to recharge afterwards.
|
| The common theme for us seems to be that we expend a lot of
| energy when talking with others. We analyze what they say,
| in order to come up with thought-through responses or
| follow-up questions. We don't do "chit chat" as such.
|
| Before such events I dread them, because I know it will
| feel exhausting. Yet when I'm at them I have a good time.
| Afterwards however it feels almost exactly like I've been
| programming hard for a whole day, my brain is spent.
|
| I, unlike my SO, also has some social anxiety. I'm very
| likely somewhere on the spectrum, as I often feel
| difficulty getting social interactions right. So I spend
| some extra energy thinking about what the right response is
| to this or that, or how to interpret body language.
| Especially if it's a new setting or a lot of new people
| this can cause a lot of extra mental work.
|
| This part however has gotten better with the years, mostly
| because I've stopped caring so much what others think and
| just let myself be myself more.
| bruce511 wrote:
| I think this is a root well worth understanding. Once I
| grasped the concept I found it much less stressful. I've
| even got into public speaking, which horrified me as a
| child.
|
| I came to realize that I'm really not that important.
| People aren't watching me. People aren't evaluating or
| judging me. They forget me when I move on. I'm not
| profound etc. They don't hang on my every word.
|
| All that are things I put on myself. Nobody really
| "cares" what I say though, I'm just not that important.
|
| Once I leave my ego out the equation, talking to people
| is a LOT simpler.
| maksimur wrote:
| I'm not sure about that. Friends and family members do
| happen to remember something I or someone else said or
| did even years ago. People DO watch and pay attention,
| and often judge.
| bruce511 wrote:
| yes, but that's people you know. Not random strangers at
| some random party. Talking to strangers is "easier" when
| you realize that what they think about you does not
| matter.
| sdiupIGPWEfh wrote:
| Which reminds me that verbal and emotional abuse from
| parents and close family can have a severe impact
| reaching far into adult-hood. You can't help having
| internalized behaviors build around trying to avoid
| abuse. You can rationally understand that maybe most
| people aren't judging you like that, but you're also
| keenly aware that the world is filled with enough who
| _are_ and with strangers you can never tell who 's who.
| pjerem wrote:
| I'll be nitpicking but I'm not sure they are really that
| related.
|
| I'm an introvert and my wife have SA. TBH it's pretty
| different : if I go to an event where I know nobody or
| where I don't feel like I have something to say, I'll just
| go and keep politely quiet. I'll get more bored and lost in
| my own thoughts or just listening without talking than
| stressed.
|
| My wife on the other hand is like you said, terrified and
| exhausted by such settings and even with familiar meetings.
| Moreover, the SA doesn't stops when you start interacting
| while introversion can disappear or become unnoticeable
| once you are integrated to the discussion.
|
| Also I feel like introversion can somehow be controlled as
| you age while social anxiety don't or can get worse.
|
| I'm In my 30's, I'm still an introvert but I learned how to
| interact with strangers politely without giving a fuck. My
| wife with SA clearly can't do that at all and is always
| asking herself if what she just said was appropriate.
| thayne wrote:
| > I'm not sure they are really that related.
|
| I would be very, very surprised if most people with
| social anxiety aren't also introverts.
| gardenhedge wrote:
| But why use the same words for both when they mean
| different things?
| atwrk wrote:
| There are actually many many people who are both socially
| anxious and extraverted. Really not uncommon. It doesn't
| look like that because introversion and social anxiety
| are so often mixed up - just like in this article. Keep
| in mind those psychological concepts are defined by the
| inner workings and motivations of people's minds, not by
| behavior observable from the outside.
|
| Introversion: This person gets energy from being alone or
| with close friends in a routine situation. (Not the same
| as being lonely, mind!). They feel attracted by
| situations and environments promising those situations.
|
| Extraversion: This person recharges by mingling with
| other people. From small talk at the water cooler to
| larger social gatherings. They feel attracted by social
| gatherings, and want to be part of them.
|
| Social Anxiety: This person is anxious in social
| gatherings (of people not being close friends or family).
| They have feelings of inadequacy about themselves as
| social beings, and fear being devalued for acting wrong
| or - worse - being wrong.
|
| Those concepts are related but not at all the same.
| Persons being both extraverted and socially anxious
| _long_ for social situations involving new people, but at
| the same time feel inadequate of being in them. Or
| ruminate about their behaviour afterwards. Or actively
| try to get comments of positive validation from their
| peers during or after the gathering.
|
| At the same time people can be introverted and not
| socially anxious at all. I have a colleague like that:
| loves working alone, doesn't need companions even for
| longer, more demanding projects, but at the same time has
| zero qualms leading a team, talking to customers, going
| in front of unknown audiences. It just exhausts them.
|
| Introversion and Extraversion are concepts involving
| motivations: What situations do people feel attracted to.
|
| Anxiety is essentially about fear of inadequacy, or
| perceived lack of agency about a situation. So not about
| motivation, but about a concept of self.
|
| There are, of course, feedback loops enabling
| correlations like the introversion + social anxiety one.
| Children (adults too, for that matter) have multiple
| avenues of gaining validation and positive experience in
| live, e.g. social competency (as colleague, parent,
| friend, community member,...), physical performance
| (sports, crafting, ...), intellectual performance and so
| on. If they learn that they are good at a thing, they
| tend to do that thing more often, because the experience
| of competency feels good. They will experience these
| kinds of situations more, and thus gain more competency
| in these kinds of situations.
|
| Now if a child is often ill, and can't go play outside
| with their peers, it won't do nothing inside, but instead
| probably be reading or drawing or crafting. So it will
| not learn social skills at that time, but will get better
| at drawing and crafting. If it already had a tendency to
| introversion, that tendency will probably get stronger.
|
| OTOH imagine a child that was very socially active in
| early childhood, but then , around 12 years old, the
| parents moved and the child had to change schools, and
| got bullied in the new school. This kid probably was
| extraverted and now gained strong feelings of social
| inadequacy, of not belonging, of being somehow different
| or wrong as a person. They will still feel attracted to
| social situations, but thanks to their experience of
| being bullied, this will feel very stressful to them.
| Extraverted and socially anxious.
| 542354234235 wrote:
| The most frustrating thing about this article and most of
| the comments is the refusal to separate
| introversion/extroversion from social anxiety. If you are
| an introvert, you will benefit from managing the amount
| of social interactions and to try to eliminate low value
| interactions so you can spend your limited energy on
| important ones, either in the workplace or with friends.
| If you have social anxiety, then you should probably talk
| to a therapist to try to reduce and manage your anxiety.
| thayne wrote:
| > If you have social anxiety, then you should probably
| talk to a therapist to try to reduce and manage your
| anxiety.
|
| One of the difficult things about Social Anxiety, at
| least for me, is that talking to a therapist is just
| about the most anxiety inducing thing I could do.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| There's clearly a high correlation though.
| xandrius wrote:
| I wouldn't say so: introversion is to feel recharged when
| being alone.
|
| So one could be really eager to socialise but find it
| terrifying to approach (social anxiety), especially if many
| unknown people are involved.
| mp05 wrote:
| I think that it seems that way because we're not trained to
| see outgoing people as having any anxiety about the matter.
| It's a funny thing for sure.
| smsm42 wrote:
| That's one thing I noticed - the author doesn't say "would you
| like me to introduce you to X who you could talk to about Y?".
| He says "hey, go talk to that guy" and thinks he's being kind.
| He's not. What Aditya could be hearing is "you're some kind of
| loser, there are so many obvious things any normal person would
| do, and you are doing none of them. Let me list some ways in
| which you are a loser. For example, you could be talking to
| that cool guy and you don't. And now that I told you that I'm
| going to leave you to soak in your loser-ness while I am going
| to have fun with my cool friends!". It's probably not what the
| author meant at all. But that's what it easily could become.
| Aditya clearly has some trouble connecting to strange people,
| for one reason or another. A kind thing would be to try to help
| him, not to label him "closed heart" and dismiss him. Of
| course, nobody owes him that, but if you proudly declare it's
| your job... If you think telling an introvert not having a good
| time "why don't you have a good time! go and have good time
| right now!" is going to work, you clearly don't understand how
| introverts work.
| robertlagrant wrote:
| This doesn't seem to relate much to the parent comment. The
| idea of someone introducing you to someone else at a party is
| them helping.
| logifail wrote:
| > The idea of someone introducing you to someone else at a
| party is them helping
|
| Umm ... along the lines of "helping" someone to learn to
| swim by pushing them into the deep end of a swimming pool?
| ptsneves wrote:
| This is also what stuck to me. The world is not as one
| wants and is up to the world to come to me with a fix. Self
| reliance replaced with self pity, will end up with sadness
| because the world will never be exactly as we want. I do
| find the idea of finding likeminded people good and you
| should do it. It is what I do and it is nice.
| asdf6969 wrote:
| This is mental illness not introversion. You don't get anxious
| about other things you don't like. You might not enjoy playing
| board games or Russian literature. Does it stress you out and
| make you anxious? Probably not. You just don't care.
| vector_spaces wrote:
| I'll suggest to you that the boundaries between introversion
| vs mental illness are probably quite blurred in some cases.
|
| And although it may seem ridiculous to you, there are people
| for whom board games and Russian literature are pretty
| stressful and anxiety inducing in the same way that public
| speaking is stressful for many people.
|
| If you had also included math in your list of frequently
| disliked subjects, then it might be less ridiculous an idea
| interludead wrote:
| It's important to remember that stress responses vary
| widely
| vasco wrote:
| They said talking to another human being fills them with
| terror.
|
| Blurry boundaries or not, either you're dedicidng to
| minimize what it means to feel terror, or I agree with who
| you're replying to. Bit weird to point the finger at
| someone and tell them they have mental illness, but it does
| look like it. Again, if you accept the description, I
| cannot see how terror would be an appropriate response to a
| conversation and would prevent someone from leading a
| normal life.
|
| It would be nearly impossible to have a job for example.
| delusional wrote:
| Please do not impose the "mental illness" label on people
| over the internet. One of the foundational requirements for
| any diagnosis of a mental illness is a negative effect on the
| person's capacity to function, and you just can't evaluate
| that over the internet.
|
| Its quite harmful to stigmatize peoples stories. Let people
| be different.
| Gigachad wrote:
| If someone is feeling deeply anxious over a social
| interaction, that's a pretty clear negative effect on their
| capacity to function.
| internet_points wrote:
| If someone never feels deeply anxious over a social
| interaction, that's a pretty clear negative effect on
| their capacity to function.
| thayne wrote:
| And how do you know that the Aditya from the story didn't
| have a mental illness?
| asdf6969 wrote:
| I don't know that. Why would it matter?
| brnt wrote:
| What I miss in these discussions is the "now what". OK, we are
| all born with different innate preferences, skills, interests,
| weaknesses.
|
| We live in a world. In that world certain interfaces are
| virtually required to be implemented. Sure, some advocacy for
| the different is OK too, but meanwhile self-isolation is just
| not going to work for most. Also, we all are already learning
| tons that are based on our instance of the world, nobody would
| solve or create businesses if it were for pure intrinsic
| motivation.
|
| How are we improving our weak spots? I sure as hell am going to
| put energy there, and not waste it all on moping, even further
| specialisation. Well, maybe those too, but after I spent some
| effort in addressing point I can identify are weaknesses for my
| functioning in the world I find myself in.
| m463 wrote:
| I've heard one way a parent can help a shy child is to have
| them look after much younger children. Even very shy children
| seem to be able to manage talking to less-experienced, less-
| intimidating, pipsqueaks.
|
| Wonder if there's a way to take that tack.
| TickleSteve wrote:
| shyness != introversion
| thrw42A8N wrote:
| What this guy describes is social anxiety, not
| introversion.
| 0xEF wrote:
| I mean, lets also avoid pretending there is zero overlap.
| I am an introvert largely because my brand of social
| anxiety causes me to function better in typically
| introverted ways. Introvertedness is a spectrum as
| opposed to something with clearly defined boundaries.
| AbstractH24 wrote:
| Would it be fair to say "You are an introvert by
| necessity rather than by choice"?
| 0xEF wrote:
| That's a strangely difficult question for me to answer,
| this being the first time I've been asked. What is your
| intention with it? You have me curious.
|
| Thinking briefly on my answer, I would argue (mostly with
| myself) that it is a mix of both. For example, I
| consciously make choices about how to conduct my day or a
| specific task that will fall within the boundaries of my
| best operational parameters...which I understand makes me
| sound like a robot, but I am anything but (nor do I
| understand enough about robotics to pretend otherwise).
| It's just a matter of having enough self-awareness to
| listen to what my brain and body tells me works and does
| not work for me, noting what does work, then trying to
| accommodate myself for best results. In another comment,
| an introvert mentioned they can get up on stage and talk
| to a room of 500 people if they had to. I can do the same
| thing...so long as I know I have nothing to do the next
| day, because that action will cost me a ton of processing
| power and I will need to rest for a long time compared
| to, say, an extrovert. So, there's a consequence to be
| consider when making that choice to get up and talk to
| that room of people.
|
| Alternatively, this also begs necessity. As someone who
| has actually been diagnosed and rediagnosed with anxiety
| and having tried different types of treatment to see what
| works and what does not work (choice, again?) I have
| learned one thing is for certain; this is not a thing
| that will just go away or be "cured" in the traditional
| meaning of the word, so it becomes necessary to learn to
| work around it.
|
| In my experience, our choices and necessities are often
| the same, so it's a blurry question with a blurry answer.
| thayne wrote:
| Being an introvert isn't a choice.
| thrw42A8N wrote:
| There is no overlap, it's two different traits, both of
| which are a spectrum. You can have full social anxiety
| while not having any introversion, and vice versa. I am
| introvert _very much_ and yet I have zero social anxiety.
| kidneystereotyp wrote:
| lol pipsqueaks funny word
| HPsquared wrote:
| Pets are another big one.
| interludead wrote:
| It seemed to me that social interactions cause anxiety not only
| because you are an introvert but also due to the situation in
| which the interaction takes place. It seems to me that even if
| you are an "extrovert," you would feel anxiety when speaking at
| some seminar. It all depends on the context. But I might be
| wrong.
| mvdtnz wrote:
| > the idea of approaching and talking to someone I don't know
| fills me with terror.
|
| It seems you have completely missed the point of the article:
| this is something you need to work on. If you don't, it will
| negatively impact you for your entire life.
| thayne wrote:
| My point is that if someone isn't as good at socializing as
| you are, instead of assuming that they are too lazy or
| "closed heart" to do better, acknowledge that it might be
| orders of magnitude more difficult for them than for you, and
| try to be understanding and helpful instead of dismissive.
| maccard wrote:
| One thing I'd mention is that just because someone is good
| at socialising in the outside doesn't mean that they don't
| have their own issues. Demonising people who can colour
| within the lines in this area when they make a mistake or
| are pushed out of their comfort zone can be exactly the
| same for us as it is for you guys to be told "just talk to
| the person".
| NegativeK wrote:
| I'll never assume that someone else doesn't have
| struggles that I don't know about.
|
| But when a self-labeled extrovert (or introvert or
| whatever) begins to tell me to just go do X to help with
| my introversion, it makes me want to stop talking about
| the issue to anyone.
| CoastalCoder wrote:
| I could be wrong, but I think you might be
| misunderstanding someone's point from above.
|
| They said "you need to work on this, or else ...", but
| they didn't use the word "just".
|
| I.e., they weren't implying it would be easy. Just that
| it wouldn't go away on its own, but that working on it
| would (in their estimation?) help.
|
| Kinda like when my doctor tells me I need to lose weight
| or else I'll have problems X Y, and Z. She knows it's not
| easy.
| atoav wrote:
| I am an introvert and I can (and if necessary will) take over
| the microphone and address a room with 500 people in it. I
| might even enjoy that a little.
|
| What makes me an introvert isn't that I am shy (I am not), what
| makes me an introvert is that I find all interaction with other
| people except a select few exhausting and draining. Don't get
| me wrong: That doesn't mean I am weird or bad at talking with
| people -- in fact I am quite the opposite. It just means it
| costs me a lot of energy, while extroverts appear to lose
| energy when they are alone, I lose it when there is a certain
| kind of social interaction needed around me.
|
| So people don't really see me as an introvert, because to them
| it is all about being shy and a little bit awkward. But that
| isn't what makes you an introvert, the energy part is.
| 1cool wrote:
| The presumption that introversion equals shyness still
| pervades even with what seems to be a cultural awareness
| amongst people on where they stand on that trait.
|
| I'm very much like you in that many people mistake me for an
| extrovert because of the opportune occasions where I display
| "extroverted" traits in social settings. However it's more of
| a decision (mostly based on energy) than a default mode I
| fall back on.
| steve1977 wrote:
| I'm very much like this. I often compare social gatherings to
| activities like hiking. I might go for a hike from time to
| time and I might even enjoy it, but it will be exhausting and
| I will need some time after the hike to recharge.
| HPsquared wrote:
| It's one of those "healthy chores". Unpleasant to think
| about, usually not as bad when you're actually doing it.
| Also like hiking (or lifting) there is an element of risk.
| 542354234235 wrote:
| I agree and most psychology articles I have read describes it
| as such, that introversion or extroversion is about what
| recharges you and what drains you. What the OP article and
| most of the comments are talking about is social anxiety. I
| am an introvert, but I love get togethers and social
| situations. I just know I have a very finite emotional budget
| for those things and plan accordingly.
| caeril wrote:
| > take over the microphone and address a room with 500 people
| in it
|
| I'm not sure this has anything to do with introversion.
|
| Speech and debate clubs are filled with introverts. The
| notion of "stage fright" is completely orthogonal to
| introversion. You're speaking _at_ people, with YOUR ideas,
| YOUR words - it 's not a dialogue, with shared feelings,
| mood, etc, which is where introverts generally get drained.
| atoav wrote:
| That was my point, precisely because the cliche in popular
| culture equates introverts with a kind of recluse who would
| rather die, than speak in front of an audience.
|
| The whole discussion here is about introverts and how the
| existing public perception of us is flawed, because it
| misses the point entirely. As playing musician I know many
| extrovert performers who are agued with stage fright,
| something which doesn't bother me as an introvert at all.
|
| Maybe it is because being seen in a bad light by people I
| wouldn't enjoy to meeting in the first place isn't a
| threat. When I play, my biggest fear is that we won't
| perform to our/my own standards and thats it. If the
| audience digs it that is great, but I am not afraid of them
| hating it, because I am aware of how good/bad what we do
| is.
| austin-cheney wrote:
| > However, I think that introversion, like most things is a
| continuum, not binary.
|
| It's a measurable scale from 1 to 100 in the big 5 model.
| scotty79 wrote:
| I'm routinely getting >95 in tests.
| asdasdsddd wrote:
| The whole concept of introversion is a regression in social
| skills which is only slightly genetic and largely environmental.
| The idea of burning social energy is mostly a skill issue,
| although it is worsened with new/weird people.
| tina_pen wrote:
| I'm not sure if I'm an extrovert or introvert, but I struggle
| with two things: small talk and being stuck in problem-solving
| mode.
|
| Small talk: I often don't know what to say and end up saying the
| wrong thing. Prolonged small talk makes my mind feel numb, like I
| need to retreat and recharge. So I try to avoid it if possible.
|
| Problem-solving mode: When I'm focused on solving a problem, I'm
| physically present but mentally somewhere else. I try to engage
| in the conversation but can't fully tune in, leading to goof ups
| which I regret later.
| wcfrobert wrote:
| I highly recommend the book "Quiet" by Susan Cain. It explores
| the trait of introversion in depth and makes many thought-
| provoking commentary about our cultural preference for
| extroversion. The poster can probably be described as an
| "ambivert".
|
| At the end of the day, none of these terminologies matter...
| These labels are just "models" of how we see ourselves. I agree
| with the sentiment that premature self-labeling is dangerous.
| Because they tend to become self-fulfilling prophecies. (e.g. I'm
| not good at math, I'm a nerd, I'm good at hockey, I'm INTJ, I'm
| an introvert).
| kstenerud wrote:
| This is why I hate the words "introvert" and "extrovert":
| everyone can just assume that their personal makeup is
| "introvert" or "extrovert".
|
| This of course makes for easy straw man arguments to the effect
| of "Everyone is the same at the core" and "Extroversion is a
| skill" and "Everyone feels drained". If you honestly think that,
| then these words are meaningless.
|
| I had a similar conversation with a friend the other night about
| smiling, where she said "you just pull up things in your mind
| that naturally make you happy, and then that makes you smile
| naturally." Once again, not for some of us. For some of us, our
| natural state LOOKS very unnatural to others. Every interaction
| requires putting on a facade, because for some reason our natural
| pose, facial movements, body movements, how we talk, how we smile
| - ALL of it must be done in a very artificial way in order to
| "look natural".
|
| And THAT is why it's so draining, akin to squatting on one leg.
| Sure, you can train it so that you could even do it for 20
| minutes instead of 4, but evenually it's just too much and you
| need to retreat to a safe place where you can relax your stiff
| muscles and behave normally for awhile (except for the small
| group of friends with whom you can just be normal).
|
| And if squatting on one leg were the only way you could
| emotionally reach those you talk to, you'd do it sparingly - only
| where it has the most impact.
| ternnoburn wrote:
| This author is deeply _deeply_ misunderstanding other humans.
| They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for
| all" mentality. And worse yet, coming to the wrong conclusions.
|
| You do not need to be an extrovert at work to get ahead. Full
| stop.
|
| Does it help in some ways? Sure, but you can be equally
| successful as an introvert as long as you are able to communicate
| clearly when needs demand it. Plenty of excellent engineers speak
| to almost no one, but write excellently.
|
| I've been in this industry for decades, I'm extremely introverted
| (autistic), I make 750k+ a year and run large projects. I never
| once "went extroverted at work".
| interludead wrote:
| Success is about the skills, contributions and value you bring
| to the table, not about how much you talk
| sweezyjeezy wrote:
| This sounds naive. Most companies have some degree of
| 'politics' which is essentially people working in their own
| interests over the company's. This is somewhat unrelated to
| skills and value.
|
| Also particularly in large organisations, work is not a
| perfect information game - there is no easy way to assign a
| fair / public a "value" to people to let you compare two
| employees. Most people will need to sell themselves or have
| other people sell them to get noticed, and some degree of
| social bonding can go a long way with this.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| > _Most companies have some degree of 'politics' which is
| essentially people working in their own interests over the
| company's. This is somewhat unrelated to skills and value._
|
| as someone else put it: there are sides in office politics,
| and by choosing not to play you are picking a side by
| default, which is often the losing side.
|
| "you can't be neutral on a moving train"
| bawolff wrote:
| I think that depends on the company and the circumstances
| it finds itself in. Office politics can be more complex
| than what you are describing.
| cardanome wrote:
| I think career success is purely whether people like you or
| not.
|
| Your skills and contributions don't matter at all as long as
| they are not so bad that people absolutely can not ignore it.
| Companies are mostly build on diffusing individual
| responsibility. Even if you majorly mess up as long as the
| right people like you you will be fine.
|
| Doesn't mean one needs to be an extrovert. Just have good
| social skills in general. It really depends on what your
| superiors prefer and the general company culture. Sometimes
| being quiet and not sticking out can be an asset as well.
| Sometimes people will like you because you have (or pretend
| to have) deep technical knowledge, sometimes they will hate
| you because you make them feel inferior and it is better to
| play dumb. Know your audience.
| bawolff wrote:
| I think this is wrong. Career success comes from providing
| value to people (who have power over you). Getting them to
| like you is the easiest but not only way.
| cardanome wrote:
| Isn't being liked by someone and providing value to
| someone basically the same? At least in a corporate
| context, a healthy way to think about this stuff this way
| in your private life.
|
| I only examples I can think of where you are valued but
| not liked is maybe when you are valued as a scapegoat or
| something, like abusive stuff but generally being liked
| and providing value should be ideally be the same.
|
| Of course you can be liked for different aspects, be it
| for performing well and so making your superiors look
| good to being a yes-man who validates their ideas or
| plainly being quiet and low maintenance. Depends on who
| is managing you.
| sweezyjeezy wrote:
| Are you not generalising in the same way? Because you are
| introverted and successful, does that mean extroversion is bad
| advice for all?
| dandellion wrote:
| He is providing a counter example, which is not the same as
| generalising.
| yzydserd wrote:
| I agree with you, but how do you know to use "he"?
| sweezyjeezy wrote:
| Apart from the line "does it help in some ways, sure" the
| overall message of their post is that the author is wrong
| and that you can be equally successful without being
| sociable, which is a general statement.
|
| It's not really supported by the anecdata that OP is a
| skilled, unsociable, successful person. That only tells us
| that this person, in their particular line of work, with
| their particular set of skills, can be successful. It also
| doesn't consider whether a version of them that was more
| sociable would be more successful.
| croes wrote:
| That an introvert can be successful is a generally true
| statement if at least one introvert is successful.
|
| Given parent is an introvert and succesful the statement
| is true.
| sweezyjeezy wrote:
| Yeah but the statement in question is (quote) "you can be
| EQUALLY successful as an introvert" - and we're talking
| about whether people should, generally, strive to be more
| extroverted at work. That there exists a successful
| introvert is not in question and isn't a good criticism
| of the article to me.
| croes wrote:
| Equally to what?
|
| The maximum success of extroverts or the average or the
| mean?
|
| What exactly is meant by succesful? What's the measure?
| sweezyjeezy wrote:
| Is it really not clear from context? "If introverts made
| an effort to be more extroverted, would it make them more
| successful?" Success I don't know what OP meant, but pay,
| seniority, I don't know that it changes the answer much.
| croes wrote:
| By that logic there exist introverts who are more
| successful than extroverts.
|
| If they become more successful if they act against their
| self is questionable, like asking straight people to
| become a little more gay or vice versa.
| Twirrim wrote:
| This whole introvert/extrovert label drives me a little crazy,
| just like almost anything that attempts to put people into
| boxes.
|
| Humanity really needs to get past this foolish notion that
| things are black and white instead of the real shades of grey.
|
| I probably straddle the line of introvert/extrovert. People
| tire me out, and I recharge in solitude like an introvert, but
| I'm also quite gregarious, and need to be around people getting
| a regular fix. I could never work solo on anything. I couldn't
| cope in a role that doesn't involve at least a handful of
| meetings a week (though they have to be legitimate, because I
| hate wasting my time in meetings and get easily bored in them).
|
| I'm probably close to what OP was talking about, and it has
| certainly been integral to my progression to staff engineer,
| but like you I disagree with the premise that you need to be
| particular ways to make progress in your career.
|
| While all of the staff engineers I work with operate at the
| same kind of level, I'm surrounded by staff and staff+
| engineers of every stripe. From extremely introverted
| specialists in particular fields, all the way to extreme
| extroverts focusing on cross org collaboration and consensus,
| and every possible combination of behavior in between. That
| diversity is _essential_ to our effectiveness.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| The introvert/extrovert concept was developed by Carl Jung
| and is both a continuum, and is logical and clearly defined.
| It also is just one dimension of limitless ones that can
| describe a persons personality. Yours and most other
| criticisms of the concept apply to popular misunderstandings
| of the idea, but not the original concept itself.
|
| Like you I am an introvert that is very social and friendly,
| enjoys social interaction, and does not have much social
| anxiety... but too much social interaction is exhausting to
| me, and requires me to recharge. People tend to confuse
| introversion with social anxiety and antisocial attitudes
| which are both distinctly different.
| d0liver wrote:
| If you don't mind my asking, what do you do?
| JasserInicide wrote:
| _They are applying a "it worked for me, therefore it works for
| all" mentality._
|
| And then you do the same thing in the next line...
| gosub100 wrote:
| no, they are applying the "I found one counterexample
| therefore the whole message must be incorrect for the general
| population". A distant relative of the semantic argument:
| "the sky is blue", "nuh-uh, not all skies are blue. once
| there was an atmospheric event, and the sky was a color other
| than blue. hence you are wrong..."
| hidelooktropic wrote:
| That's not what they did at all.
| anon-3988 wrote:
| What I learnt from this post is that no one else is going to wait
| for you. If you are introverted, doesn't speak up, doesn't
| volunteer for anything; why are you surprised that you are not
| growing?
| riversflow wrote:
| It's pretty shitty of you to not credit the creator of your image
| like they ask in their bio.
|
| > https://unsplash.com/@lighttouchedphotography
|
| > https://unsplash.com/photos/brown-wooden-bench-PWxcv9hKOQc
| xlii wrote:
| I don't find article interesting at all. I agree with others that
| it's full of gaps and ,,sound advice".
|
| Subject is interesting though and I, as person that naturally is
| introvert I can attest that avoidance doesn't help. Negative
| effects doesn't come suddenly, but after working remotely for 15+
| years and mentoring many in similar situation I am sure that
| sooner or later bliss of solitude develops into non fun, hard to
| fix conditions.
|
| But then what author describes at start isn't an
| introvert/extrovert/shy or anxious person. It's an
| obstructionist, a naysayer. Someone who always have an argument
| for not doing something.
|
| I avoid such people and either remove from or leave teams where
| it's impossible. Maybe they have reasons for being bad apples,
| but that's not my job to fix it.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| This is a profound misunderstanding of introversion. An introvert
| may choose to develop and use the skills of social connection
| that come naturally to an extrovert. But at what cost? If the
| situation demands extroverted behavior, then do it, fine. But the
| introvert pays a cost to recharge and come back to whatever
| equilibrium is normal for them. If the cost/benefit does not work
| out, an introvert can and should make the choice to exhibit
| introverted behaviors.
|
| Being an introvert who is capable of extroverted behaviors, I
| always felt confused about the question, "Are you an introvert or
| an extrovert?" It became clear to me when I read an explanation
| that went like this: After a dinner party where you meet some new
| people are you left energized or exhausted? If you're exhausted
| it is because you're an introvert.
| cdrini wrote:
| My issue is it just so greatly depends. Certain parties, if I
| have some sort of pressure on me, I leave tired. Other parties,
| I leave happy and contented. I might even be tired, but overall
| happy! When I'm going to a party, I might feel dread, or I
| might feel exhilarated! And that rarely has an impact on how I
| feel after the party/gathering.
|
| That's largely why I think the introvert/extrovert theory is
| not super accurate as a theory. In my experience, my energy
| after a party is not a constant that depends only on my
| personality. It depends almost entirely on external factors --
| what my day was like, where my head is, who I'm meeting, what
| they're like, what we're doing, etc.
|
| And: I can often place myself in a state of mind that makes me
| more or less amenable to a social gathering, and helps me enjoy
| it more; which will generally make me feel less tired/more
| satisfied when I leave.
| megamix wrote:
| Screw this. Guess my type.
| riffraff wrote:
| > The second challenge is the misconception that communication
| should be natural and effortless. While the reality is, it takes
| effort to communicate and drains energy for everyone.
|
| Yeah, no. It's 100% effortless for me to communicate with people
| I'm familiar with, and a massive effort to talk to people I don't
| know or are mere acquaintances. For my wife it is not only
| effortless but a massive energy boost to interact with a person
| whether they know them or not.
|
| I think the author says some right things but vastly over
| generalizes.
| interludead wrote:
| I think it's all about context and intention. We should embrace
| growth, not labels, and recognize the beauty in both
| collaboration and quiet connection
| Izkata wrote:
| I'm seeing a fundamental misunderstanding in both the article and
| a lot of the comments here, that to me seems closely related to
| the "some people have no inner voice" / "some people can't
| visualize things" findings: People making the assumption that how
| you act defines whether you're an introvert or an extrovert
| because only the external expression exists, not the internal
| state. And so all their examples reveal they think
| introvert/extrovert refer to how social a person is in the
| moment, instead of what it actually is - a measure of how
| draining (or not) social interactions are.
|
| You really can't tell if someone is an introvert or extrovert in
| one instance in a setting, only in what happens later - it's
| totally possible to be a social introvert, for example, it just
| means you need alone time later to recharge before you can go
| again. When not given a chance to recharge it can come off in
| various ways depending on the person - often people describe it
| as getting tired, I've also seen snippiness, and I tend to get a
| headache.
| entropyneur wrote:
| I'm not convinced introverts and extroverts even exist. All
| people have a need for company and a need for solitude. Depending
| on how well each of these needs is satisfied you may feel one or
| the other way. Most of the time I see people describe themselves
| as introverts they are describing shyness or social anxiety.
| Koshcheiushko wrote:
| I get the message of this article. I feel like someone wrote it
| for me. Thanks
| HellDunkel wrote:
| "Hey man, what's up? Why don't you approach and talk to a few
| here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe
| talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how
| he got started.".
|
| A very patronizing attempt at connecting people...
| vasco wrote:
| Most negative self labels have this property, not just
| introversion.
|
| I know people that say "they are always late haha", people that
| say "they aren't good at math", people that say "they don't like
| art" and many others, and they just serve to hold you back. In
| almost every time I hear this, I just hear "I decided I don't
| want to be or do this".
|
| And even if you were truly bad at something that is expected by
| society, thinking of yourself as bad at it won't really help
| much. It's much more useful to just recognize your skill level
| for what it is and just understand that everything improves the
| more you try to do it better.
| knorker wrote:
| Not sure I would say introversion is a negative self label.
|
| > people that say "they are always late haha"
|
| No, that just means "I don't respect other people or their
| time, haha".
|
| > people that say "they aren't good at math"
|
| There are people who say it as an excuse to not try. But you
| know, some people _are_ bad at math, so maybe let 's have
| someone else on the team do that part?
|
| But what's the difference to "I don't want to do/learn math"?
| You don't have to. There's no guard rails on life, you can go
| out and eat dirt right now if that makes you happy, nobody's
| going to stop you.
|
| > people that say "they don't like art"
|
| I've not encountered this. Art, like _any_ art? I think this is
| just not understanding just how much classifies as "art".
|
| > thinking of yourself as bad
|
| I'm not "bad" because I'm an introvert. I'm not "bad" as
| socializing. What makes you say introvert is some sort of
| insult?
|
| It's not "bad" of me to be perfectly happy not interacting with
| anybody for weeks. I don't actually do that, because research
| shows that this is bad for your long term health, but an
| extrovert would absolutely not like that one bit. I find it
| more "bad" if I'm in a waiting room or something and some
| stranger can't just STFU for 30 minutes while we're waiting.
|
| It says more about you than about introverts that you seem so
| hostile to it/them.
| vasco wrote:
| It is funny that you reply to a diatribe about not attaching
| yourself to labels to come across as very defensive of the
| label you've given yourself. My whole point is we're not
| anything, you're not an introvert is my point.
| kidneystereotyp wrote:
| when will our benevolent overlords drop mind reading tech
| qualitative psychology is so exhausting after a point
| Tainnor wrote:
| This article mixes up a bunch of different things.
|
| Being a good communicator doesn't mean you have to be an
| "extrovert at work". There are many different styles of
| communication. I tend to be the guy who prefers async
| communication, will write explanatory comments on my own PRs,
| documents the WIP state on my tickets (especially before weekends
| or vacations etc.). Others are the kinds of people that'll
| happily go over a PR in a call. You just have to find modes of
| working that sort of work for everyone.
| andhuman wrote:
| I'm not good with words, but I'm good at thinking. That leads me
| to listen more than I talk during gatherings. To listen is to
| concentrate, doubly so for crowded events. You need to think
| about what the person is saying, and you need to filter out the
| noise around you. No, try to talk instead of listen and see how
| that feels. Change the equation. Let others come up with good
| responses to your ramblings for once. Of course, this can feel a
| bit egotistic. The other way around it is to stop caring that
| much what the other person is saying. We're all here talking
| shit. At the end of the day, what matters is if you were seen, if
| the other person felt seen and validated. That's what's great
| about talking to another person. You got seen by an animal that
| can understand you the most: humans.
| solatic wrote:
| I really wish people could ditch the "introvert vs. extrovert"
| framing. As a label, it is not helpful for anyone's personal
| growth.
|
| People think salespeople are some kind of natural "extrovert". I
| hate to break it to you, but cold calling is draining for
| _everyone_. Salespeople may get particularly good at reducing the
| emotional expenditure involved in making cold calls, to be able
| to making a lot of them for long periods, but it is fundamentally
| a practice where one expends energy out into the world and gets
| absolutely nothing in return. I promise you, any salesperson
| making cold calls with no "nibbles on the line" eventually
| begins to doubt themselves and looks to make an exit. This is
| also why online dating is so draining for so many people, despite
| applications not inducing any "social interaction" like actual
| conversation - if you invest emotional energy into something that
| does not return emotional energy to you, then you _will_ drain
| yourself if you are not careful.
|
| On the other end of the spectrum, there are specific, individual
| people in our lives who fill us with energy and joy, who we love
| to spend time with. These are people we "vibe" with, who are on
| our wavelength, so to speak. When you have someone, maybe even
| more than one, such person in your life, I doubt you would like
| to spend less time with them.
|
| Social skills are about finding more people who give you energy
| and resisting people who drain your energy. Finding more people
| who give you energy is, yes, a cold-calling skill, one where you
| take the risk of investing, from time to time, a small and
| limited amount of energy in the universe in the hope of finding a
| social energy return. But it is also about resisting people who
| drain your energy. Sometimes we need to interact with people in
| our families or at work who we can't just cut out of our lives,
| for one reason or another, who drain us. One can hardly be
| faulted for not having the energy, at the end of the day, to go
| network at some social function when they're already drained. But
| it is also that person's responsibility to learn to manage their
| emotional energy so that they will have some for the cold-calling
| that is necessary to find the people we vibe with. You do not
| need to vibe with everyone, and framing people with really good
| cold-calling skills as "extroverts" avoids the fact that such
| people do not _actually_ vibe with everyone, they are just better
| at both the cold-calling skills involved as well as managing
| their emotional energy levels.
| gardenhedge wrote:
| The author misses the mark completely with this post. I not sure
| if they even know what introvert means. I recommend the book
| Quiet.
| andycowley wrote:
| Wow. This is an incredibly insular, and empathy devoid take. The
| author's binary assumption that introversion and introversion are
| choices are incredible.
|
| Go and do some research on neurodivergence, and then go and have
| a think about how harmful this advice is.
|
| The emotional toll that it must have taken on Aditya just to be
| there without some grinning goon come lolloping towards him
| telling him just because they can do a thing anyone can do a
| thing must have been incredible.
| 0xEF wrote:
| Sadly, the grinning goon is often the reality of the situation.
|
| I grew up being treated as weird because I hated crowds and
| needed to rest after interacting with people. Externally, this
| got treated as me hating people and noisy places, which is not
| really true at all. I like people and when I have enough
| bandwidth available, I'll gladly interact with them even
| knowing that it will cost me some shut-down time later. There's
| a,"spoons" analogy for this that people seem to like, but I
| tend to think of it more in terms of how a computer allocates
| resources to process information.
|
| The "noisy" bit is really more social noise, but some
| environments acoustically confound me. Coffee shops, for
| example, where the espresso machines make those god-awful
| noises at random intervals, only to bounce around in some
| idiotic open-ceiling aesthetic that has become fashionable for
| reasons I do not understand, since even extroverts like to hear
| who they are talking to. Thankfully, I have really nice
| earplugs.
|
| Anyway, it was not until my 20's that I was diagnosed with
| Anxiety, which made things click. People that do not experience
| this have no clue, but I can't really blame them. The
| advertising and entertainment media I grew up on always
| displayed social interaction as healthy or some kind of key to
| happiness, which got pigeon-holed as "normal behavior", so who
| would want to be unhealthy or unhappy? You were supposed to
| just get out there and it would get easier with time, right?
| These people mean well, but again, they have no clue.
|
| But the opposite is true. One of my best friends is a textbook
| extrovert, constantly needing social interaction and
| experiencing heavy mental and emotional distress when he's
| alone with just himself and his thoughts for too long. I have
| no clue what that's like, though I possess enough empathy to
| understand that's how he is wired, so his needs are different
| than mine (he also has enough empathy to return the same
| understanding toward my needs).
|
| Empathy, as you imply, bridges that gap but also takes
| tremendous effort, hence why Othering is such a pervasive
| social issue.
| tecleandor wrote:
| Yep. Calling it an excuse is terrible.
|
| Feeling comfortable to talk to an stranger depends on so many
| factors.
|
| You could do 'extrovert' things because you're masking another
| thing. Because you're forcing yourself (and that can be
| exhausting). Because you feel in a safe or comfortable place.
| Or because it feels part of a duty or something like that.
|
| A weird thing in my case is that it's quite difficult for me
| (although it doesn't like like that from the outside, I look
| quite outgoing) to go and talk to somebody that looks
| interesting to me, even when I'm on a place that is meant for
| that: a congress, workshop, whatever. I've been three years in
| a row going to PyConES, being part of Python Spain, knowing
| people there, and only this last year I've began to talk to
| some people. I can ask technical or specific questions, but I
| can't open a cold conversation.
|
| But in the other hand, I can easily do a talk to a big audience
| or appear on a nation-wide TV show, and I'd barely get nervous.
|
| Some people force themselves to do 'extrovert stuff' because
| social norms, or work needs, to fit somewhere, or because they
| want to get or do something very specific and 'that's the way
| to do it', but it's very taxing.
|
| Some people (overlapping with that previous group) have
| identified that 'going extrovert' is tiring and taxing for
| them, and they rather don't do it unless it's really necessary.
| And they say it. And I really respect that, because they take
| care of themselves, and also helps the others around them to
| not step on their limits.
|
| (I'm sleepy, haven't had my coffee, English is not my first
| language, please forgive my convoluted phrasing)
| coolio1232 wrote:
| My case is like this: I get no anxiety talking to people, I have
| nothing against talking to people, and I believe I can get my
| point across well enough and fluently when I need to get things
| done.
|
| However, whenever there is a social gathering and such that I
| have to attend, my default, standard set of activities unless
| someone approaches me is to just look around look at my
| surroundings, get lost in my headspace while taking a walk around
| the place while tuning out others and greeting anyone who I
| happen to know. If I happen to be interested in having a
| conversation with someone, I will have it. But I'm simply not
| interested in people by default, or meeting people for the sake
| of it.
|
| I have never spontaneously felt any inadequacy with myself when
| doing this. What inadequacies are there have almost exclusively
| have been pointed out to me by others, much in the same way the
| author does with Aditya here. I just don't ever feel a need to
| talk or force a conversation unless others (relatives and
| colleagues) are pressuring me to do so.
|
| The mannerisms of the Author are what I've often heard from the
| management people in the companies that I've worked for and in
| some Linkedin posts. I'm not trying to deny at all that effective
| communication and networking has its benefits, but the way they
| talk, including the Author's article often makes me feel like
| they're masking an insurmountable amount of annoyance and vitriol
| for those who just don't want to talk. It's as if they will not
| accept anything other than the status quo of constant chatter and
| networking.
| xandrius wrote:
| I'd imagine the keyword is "have to attend".
|
| If you truly have no choice then who's to blame you but if you
| decide to show up to a party and then proceed to walk around
| and look at the furniture all night then maybe you could have
| put a minimum amount of effort to engage with others who could
| have stayed at home that day?
|
| But if you are somewhere to listen to some nice talks and then
| they force you to "network" then I'd say it's totally ok to sit
| it out and avoid anything unwanted.
| yapyap wrote:
| " Hey man, what's up? Why don't you approach and talk to a few
| here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe
| talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how
| he got started "
|
| ah yes nothing says being a party host like whispering to someone
| the exact words they should say like they're a child learning to
| socialize.
|
| I agree with most of the other HN comments that this article,
| while hitting the nail on the head when talking about socialness
| and how that is linked to appreciation in the workplace, is not
| very kind to anyone who strays from this socializing.
|
| Kind of like the author got taught he had to socialize, as a
| rule. and feels a disdain towards people 'breaking' that rather
| unspoken social rule
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| Interesting article because it made me [1] think. But poor
| article because the author's apparent lack of awareness leads
| them to get so much wrong.
|
| I suspect that the author is a straight-up extravert who thinks
| that introversion is the same as shyness (its not), and that
| their claim to be an "introvert in friendship" allows them to
| claim to be "deep" (wrong again, introversion is not a virtue and
| extraversion is not the same as superficiality).
|
| Basically this reads like some think piece I'd expect to see on
| LinkedIn. Kind of like "How to Succeed as a Senior Staff
| Engineer", written by a 23 year old.
|
| I wonder how the author of this piece will feel about it later in
| their life - perhaps as their awareness of the limits of their
| awareness becomes clearer.
|
| [1] I identify as an introvert
| atleastoptimal wrote:
| I am an introvert not because I don't like socializing with
| people, but rather because I can't shake the impression that they
| don't like socializing with me (and I have been proven right in
| this notion).
|
| In order to become more likable I've had to adopt an extremely
| perceptive and self critical mental framework to analyze every
| thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend people. It has
| worked, and people seem to like me more, but the mental
| exhaustion it induces has led to me often yearning for alone
| time.
|
| I wonder if introverts like me are common: those who enjoy
| socializing very much when they feel socially safe, but rarely
| feel socially safe.
| zdc1 wrote:
| I do wonder how much is extraversion vs introversion, and much
| are other factors like shyness/social anxiety, or as another
| commenter mentioned, being non-neurotypical. I feel like these
| discussions are full of mislabelled terms and people who may
| not be fully self-aware of where they sit.
|
| In social media I often see terms like "Introverted Extrovert"
| get thrown around when sometimes they just mean that they're an
| introvert who's good at masking. On the other hand, my energy
| level goes up in a group, but I definitely need time to warm up
| to new people before I can be comfortable around them.
| HPsquared wrote:
| I see "introverted extrovert" as a kind of frustrated
| extrovert who doesn't have compatible people around to
| socialise with so feels the need to mask and work hard to
| socialise with incompatible people. Which is of course
| tiring.
| taskforcegemini wrote:
| what is an introvert then? because these arguments also
| apply on introverts
| zem wrote:
| someone who is drained by interacting even with
| compatible people whose company they enjoy
| lll-o-lll wrote:
| You might be a bit autistic, common enough in the software
| world. Lookup something called "autistic masking".
|
| Source: All the autistic people in my life. I really like
| autistic people! Find your people and you won't have to pretend
| around them.
| frognumber wrote:
| Right now, we increasingly like to stick labels on things,
| and I'm not sure it's helpful.
|
| Autism is a disorder, diagnosed in DSM V. Very few people in
| your life are likely to be autistic. As with many such
| things, it's a spectrum. Unless those cross a pathological
| threshold, it's not autism. Few SWEs are over that threshold.
|
| We used to call people "nerdy," "quirky," or other things
| (and it was okay to be that). That's in the natural spread of
| human personalities. If you're 5% of the way towards
| dyslexia, autism, obsessive-compulsive disorder, or whatever
| else, it's in the range of human personalities, not
| disorders.
|
| It's helpful to understand how different people work. Most
| SWEs and introverts share some characteristics with people
| with autism, and reading about autism can help understand
| oneself by interpolation. However, the label is not fair
| either people with actual autism, or to people without autism
| who believe they have it.
|
| Footnote: My experience is that extrovert versus introvert is
| mostly a function of whether you're invigorated by
| interacting with people or tired by it, and especially by
| people you don't know well. Yes, social skills are helpful, a
| skill one can develop, and important to one's career, but so
| are math or medicine. A good strategy for an introvert is to
| partner with an extrovert.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| > _Autism is a disorder, diagnosed in DSM V._ [...] _Unless
| those cross a pathological threshold, it 's not autism._
|
| There is a natural category in the world that shares many
| members with those-who-meet-diagnostic-criteria-
| for-"autism", completely unrelated to any "pathological
| threshold". It absolutely makes sense to describe people as
| "autistic" whose lives are not suffering.
|
| Beyond that, you _really_ shouldn 't be treating the DSM as
| some kind of authority: that's like treating a particularly
| unreliable dictionary written by a non-native speaker as an
| authority on a different language. See
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_the_DSM for
| more information.
|
| The idea that the APA's claims are any kind of
| authoritative is quite insulting. They're _systematically_
| wrong, in quite horrible ways, and probably always will be.
| The DSM-V is a tool for coordination among (American)
| practitioners, and should not be considered anything more
| than that: it _certainly_ shouldn 't be consulted or quoted
| by the laity, who do not know the caveats.
| mettamage wrote:
| Fairly solid take. And you haven't even mentioned the
| reproduction crisis and similar issues in the general
| field. That doesn't make the accumulation of knowledge in
| clinical psychology any easier either.
| hinkley wrote:
| The DSM is tragicomically bad for neurodiverse people. DSM
| III & IV were basically useless for most of the formative
| years of genX and millenials, and 5th edition is over a
| decade out of date. Citing the DSM V for psychology is like
| trying to win a philosophical debate by using Merriam and
| Webster's. The map is not the territory.
| Suppafly wrote:
| > Citing the DSM V for psychology is like trying to win a
| philosophical debate by using Merriam and Webster's.
|
| This, the whole _x_ is /isn't a disease because how the
| DSM describes it debate is basically worthless. I get
| that it's helpful for some people to finally have a
| diagnosis that's recognized, but ultimately it's a
| spectrum of symptoms and behaviors and needing a label
| isn't strictly necessary for treatment and can often come
| with additional baggage that is less helpful.
| bawolff wrote:
| > Right now, we increasingly like to stick labels on
| things, and I'm not sure it's helpful.
|
| All models are wrong, some are useful.
|
| I don't think OP is neccesarily saying the poster has
| autism, just that the thing they are describing is similar
| to something a lot of autistic people describe, so maybe
| reading about it would be helpful. That can be true for
| everyone. We can all learn from the experiences of others.
| exmadscientist wrote:
| Ironically, my experience with people close to me is that
| obsession with labels is actually a pretty decent hallmark
| of autism. One family member, upon receiving a new
| "diagnosis" (usually self-diagnosed) actually _changes_
| their affect to become more like the textbook examples for
| that label. (And has done this more than once.) It can be
| very frustrating to deal with. This person has been
| diagnosed as on the autism spectrum, and the best
| explanation I 've heard for their behavior is that it's
| masking gone rather wrong. This is an extreme example, but
| the general map-territory-label confusion is something I've
| seen a lot in people I know with a neurodivergence.
| caycep wrote:
| also, OP's experience also may be affected by the
| location/field/clique of people who are around you. For
| example - say, the fashion creative world in LA and NYC w/
| value based on exclusivity - people actually ARE opposed to
| befriending/hanging out with you. Also apparently the
| entertainment world, if all social connections are managed
| by PR as seen by the recent Baldoni/Lively broughaha and
| the respective millions being spent associated firms.
|
| I supposed the "find your people" recommendation above is
| apt
| hnbad wrote:
| Same with ADHD. People with ADHD often experience social
| friction because they may be perceived as rude or bad
| listeners. Plus of course there's significant overlap between
| people with ADHD and autistic people (as well as an overlap
| in symptoms). ADHD doesn't have to present as being fidgety
| and hyper either, inattentiveness (i.e. not being able to
| control your focus well) is another big aspect. If as a kid
| you kept hearing "you're so smart, if only you would apply
| yourself more" while already working yourself to exhaustion
| (especially if you have a high IQ and used that to compensate
| for "forgetfulness" or "procrastination"), that may have
| simply been inattentive type ADHD.
|
| I used to think I was very autistic until I underwent a
| thorough diagnostic process and learned that while I am
| indeed autistic, most of what I had been experiencing was
| actually crippling ADHD I was committing most of my mental
| capacity to compensate.
| Suppafly wrote:
| >Plus of course there's significant overlap between people
| with ADHD and autistic people (as well as an overlap in
| symptoms).
|
| I'm honestly surprised more people with ADHD and similar
| don't push to be considered as part of the autistic
| spectrum, it's seems somewhat obvious that there it too
| much overlap to pretend otherwise.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| Great description, my experience with inattentive ADHD was
| identical to what you describe.
| sans_souse wrote:
| Please don't try to diagnose people based on a couple
| paragraphs, on an internet forum, who didn't ask for a
| diagnosis in the first place.
| gosub100 wrote:
| why? because you don't think we're fully-capable adults
| here, able to weigh information and accept/reject it with
| full agency?
| caeril wrote:
| That's exactly correct. An IQ 130 HackerNewser with solid
| critical thinking and reasoning capability and access to
| the psychological literature is far less qualified than
| the (average) 105 IQ psychologist who has been "educated"
| on a pile of studies that consistently fail to replicate.
|
| Welcome to the world of gatekeeping.
| mettamage wrote:
| I think it is meant empathically and non-judgmentally.
|
| Depending on the person having it, autism isn't all bad,
| especially not high functioning autism. Some high
| functioning autistic people actually excel in society, but
| compared to other autistic people, they seem to be in the
| minority. The same seems true for high functioning ADHD
| (again a small minority).
|
| So I don't really see the stigma when someone on HN is
| called autistic. Given that they are undiagnosed, the
| likelihood of them falling into the small minority is
| really high as their problems are mild enough (also, one
| could be subclinical). At the level of being high
| functioning, it simply suggests that they process things in
| a different way.
|
| > In order to become more likable I've had to adopt an
| extremely perceptive and self critical mental framework to
| analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or
| offend people. It has worked, and people seem to like me
| more, but the mental exhaustion it induces has led to me
| often yearning for alone time.
|
| I get why he stated that he might be autistic. When I look
| at the autistic people I know that are socially well-liked,
| most of them would say a similar thing. The other route I
| know that some autistic people have taken is mindfulness
| meditation.
|
| If OP is autistic, I personally would recommend mindfulness
| meditation as there's a chance his insula is smaller [1].
| And mindfulness meditation targets it [2].
|
| Background: did a bachelor in psychology, have studied it
| informally way before that and I happen to know many
| autistic people. It's a biased sample, but it paints a
| picture nonetheless. I'm subclinical myself, according to
| my therapist I don't hit all the criteria but I have some
| of them. The biggest one I'm missing is that my life
| actually goes quite well (friends, married, healthy, I have
| a job, etc.). If it didn't, there'd probably enough reason
| to classify me as autistic (e.g. no friends or severe
| difficulties in finding a partner).
|
| [1] https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S
| 02785...
|
| [2] There are scientific sources of it, but I find the
| comment that Cheetah House has made to be more insightful.
| They research the adverse side effects of meditation and
| help people with it.
|
| They said: Britton explained to me that it's likely that my
| meditation practice, specifically the constant attention
| directed toward the sensations of the body, may have
| increased the activation and size of a part of the brain
| called the insula cortex. "Activation of the insula cortex
| is related to systemic arousal," she said. "If you keep
| amping up your body awareness, there is a point where it
| becomes too much and the body tries to limit excessive
| arousal by shutting down the limbic system. That's why you
| have an oscillation between intense fear and dissociation."
| - See also: https://danlawton.substack.com/p/when-buddhism-
| goes-bad
| electrondood wrote:
| > might
|
| I found their post helpful, and not an attempt to diagnose.
| hidelooktropic wrote:
| You might be autistic is an attempt to diagnose.
| xedrac wrote:
| This rings true for me. I have an autistic daughter and I'm
| not nearly as severe as she is. But social interactions
| stress me out, even though I enjoy interacting with people
| when I have the energy for it. Add to that my sensitivities
| to sound, light, taste, touch and smell, and it's pretty
| clear that I am at least on the spectrum. It may be just a
| label, but helps me make sense of many of my quirks.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| My suspicion is that many people who think they have autism
| or ADHD really have
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizotypy
|
| Myself I learned to outperform extroverts at their own game
| temporarily (can do cold calls all day with zero fear)
| although I use a lot of tricks based on dissociation (I have
| a fox that comes out when I need it, in fact it just told me
| I have to get in better physical shape to be a better host.)
| blueflow wrote:
| > analyze every thing I could be doing wrong to annoy or offend
| people
|
| Is this a "you" problem or a "they" problem?
| fairity wrote:
| Why would it matter? OP is experiencing an undesirable
| outcome, and assigning blame for the problem seems besides
| the point when the main goal is to change the outcome.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| If one can't figure out the causes of certain outcomes, how
| does one change the outcomes?
| blueflow wrote:
| Because you can reverse the situation and criticize them
| for being offended by everything and difficult for you to
| work with.
| gosub100 wrote:
| you can, only if you have the critical amount of self
| confidence, appetite for conflict, lack the fear of
| losing them, and/or have another group of people who you
| can substitute after their loss. Thats a big ask for all
| but the most socially endowed of us.
| jimkleiber wrote:
| I try to just adopt the perspective that people like me, often
| more than they might even think they do.
|
| It's not easy to do but when I do it, it makes it a lot easier
| for me to want to interact with them.
|
| And if you want, ive built tools and tricks to help me with
| this that I could share.
| mojifwisi wrote:
| I am not OP, but I am interested in those tools and tricks.
| gedy wrote:
| In the context of work outings and socializing, this is doubly
| so if you are older or unattractive. If you are at a company
| with a lot of young 20 somethings, they largely really have no
| interest in being around you, and attempts to socialize with
| opposite sex can easily be misconstrued (by them) as unwanted.
|
| So it's frankly not worth it, and not sure why I'd even want to
| put myself in those situations.
|
| And before you reply "well maybe _you_ are being creepy ", well
| QED
| scarface_74 wrote:
| The further up I get in my career and especially when I fell
| into consulting in 2020 and more so after Covid lifted, I've
| had to "act like I like people". I've studied how to talk to
| and deal with people a lot over the past few years. I'm good at
| it. But it is tiring.
|
| I was also an only child. While I have four friend groups
| including my cousins I grew up with, there are plenty of times
| I enjoy just being alone or even sitting alone in a crowd where
| I don't have to talk to people.
|
| My wife knows that about me and she can sense when I just need
| some me time.
| scotty79 wrote:
| There's also a thing called schizoid personality that about 1% of
| people have. Maybe "proud introverts" of this article are mostly
| that.
|
| The name schizoid sounds terrible but it's basically self
| sufficiency and reduced need for real world human contact. This
| enables evaluating opportunity of each one on its merits and for
| people who had prior bad experiences might result in avoidance of
| almost all human contact. Since there's no emotional cost of that
| such people can be pretty shameless about it. Hence connotation
| of "proud" and antipathy from non-schizoid people like the author
| of this article.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schizoid_personality_disorde...
| HPsquared wrote:
| I think it's 90% contextual and depends on who you happen to be
| with. Just like the whole "alpha male" idea, or even the economic
| concept of value of goods/services (subjective theory of value).
|
| People try and generalise too much to make these clunky mental
| models of the world and of people.
|
| With the internet it's increasingly common for a person's
| preferred social group to be somewhere online, and the people you
| meet in your daily life IRL are not of this group, they are not
| "your people" and it's tiring to deal with them. Even if you were
| to meet those people IRL the dynamics would be different IRL. The
| whole thing is kind of cursed.
| JackMorgan wrote:
| Some amount of social anxiety has to be a pre-modern survival
| trait. Strangers from another tribe or clan were often extremely
| dangerous. Even travel used to be fraught with bandits and
| highway robbery.
|
| Many modern activities will put someone in close proximity to
| lots of strangers. Airports, public transit, busy streets,
| college parties, even big grocery stores all have lots of
| strangers. A person who doesn't want to be surrounded by
| strangers is probably feeling an ancient survival instinct. Now,
| if that feeling prevents them from visiting family, living a
| happy life, or accomplishing their goals, it's a problem. But I
| don't think feeling uneasy in a location filled with strangers is
| inherently unhealthy.
|
| Likewise introversion isn't a bad thing. Some people would just
| prefer to be alone, and that's okay. Maybe it's a muscle they
| could strengthen, but I've known enough introverted folks who
| constantly practice social skills but never increase their
| inbuilt number of "social hours". They love people, love
| entertaining and meeting people, but as soon as that number is
| hit they go off into their room and don't come out for a few
| days. I don't think this is an issue, they've got a fixed amount
| of social energy and that's that.
| jl6 wrote:
| It's a modern survival trait too, particularly for women, from
| whom we are all descended.
| blueflow wrote:
| This is repeated often, but recently i found out that men
| _lead_ all categories (except sexual assault and domestic
| violence) of being the victims of crime. You are safer if you
| are a woman.
| jl6 wrote:
| That's a pretty big exception. And do your stats control
| for risk-taking behavior, which is higher in men? [0] For
| example, do we see a higher rate of violent crime against
| men because that rate includes gang violence and men are
| much more likely to be involved in gangs than women? Or
| because it includes car theft, when car ownership is higher
| amongst men than women? Or because men are more likely to
| be employed outside the home where crime is more likely?
|
| None of this helps women who have to decide whether to
| cross the street to avoid a group coming towards them. The
| GP point about a form of social anxiety being a survival
| instinct is absolutely plausible.
|
| [0] https://findanexpert.unimelb.edu.au/news/16315-men-are-
| more-...
| blueflow wrote:
| > risk-taking behavior, which is higher in men?
|
| My point, be a woman and you'll be safer. Being a woman
| helps because then you don't have the risk factors you
| just listed.
| jl6 wrote:
| My point is that when you normalize for risk-taking
| behavior, women will come out worse. When a woman goes
| out at 3am in her Chrysler 300 to sling dope through a
| bad neighborhood, she will face additional risks than the
| ones she chose.
| lolinder wrote:
| If you take all men and all women, that's probably true. By
| the same token, men are also more likely to die on the
| front lines of a war, but that doesn't mean that you're
| safer there as a woman, it means there are far fewer of
| them there!
|
| In order to come to your conclusion ("you are safer if you
| are a woman"), you'd have to control for where the crime
| takes place, who committed it, and why. For just one
| example: gang-related violence is a large category of crime
| that affects mostly men _because mostly men are involved in
| gangs_. But that category of violence does not contribute
| to the risk of most of us here falling victims to crimes
| because most of us here are not involved with gangs, so
| that falsely skews the numbers towards men as victims.
|
| The real question you have to answer to come to your
| conclusion is if the typical woman on HN is safer than the
| typical man on HN.
| blueflow wrote:
| > By the same token, men are also more likely to die on
| the front lines of a war, but that doesn't mean that
| you're safer there as a woman, it means there are far
| fewer of them there!
|
| And this is why? Women don't get drafted. Proving my
| point.
|
| The rest of your post is victim blaming.
| revskill wrote:
| No. It is not extrovert at work, it is about raising awareness to
| others about your concerns.
| Micral8022 wrote:
| 300+ comments so far, and no mention of the elephant in the
| Valley : Asperger and it's 666 shades of narcissism.
|
| I'm "on the spectrum", but conscious that narcissism in the bane
| of humankind.
|
| Halas, 8 of the 10 richest American individuals disagree with me,
| and the #1 just got in power ;-)
| mgh2 wrote:
| "The odds are good, but the goods are odd" - why is SV full of
| wierdos? Part of the answer lies in social isolation. Whether you
| like it or not and regardless of personality, humans are social
| creatures. This was evident from covid.
|
| To avoid interacting with others is not only a disservice to your
| own growth but also to society. It is much easier to live in your
| own world then go out there and learn - books and the web are not
| substitutes.
|
| You see this effect on today's generation who rely on internet
| bubbles, brainwashing and biases to inform their thinking, hardly
| having critical skills (ex: woke). You can only blame the system
| (big tech) to a certain extent, but the individual should
| ultimately take responsibility.
|
| Being born (disadvantaged) an introvert is no excuse as being
| born a foreigner (ex: H1Bs) or a sinner, you still have to do
| your best in becoming a better version of yourself.
| blueflow wrote:
| Implied in this: That learning about other people will make you
| like them more and not lead to increased wishes for isolation.
| mgh2 wrote:
| Sure people are not the best creatures, but it is part of the
| painful learning curve
| shreddit wrote:
| When you see me at social gatherings you would either label me as
| an introvert or an extrovert. It totally depends on the people i
| am around. Not like whether i know the people or not (i will
| happily socialize with strangers on the right topic), but rather
| what type of people and what the current topic is. I deeply
| dislike small talk, or people i know (or at least i think) don't
| share any common interests with me. That's why i am quite the
| talkative person at work but mostly quiet (and uninterested) in
| private.
| throw4847285 wrote:
| The amount of folk psychology in both that article and this
| thread is disappointing but expected. Introversion has become a
| fuzzy and basically useless term that gets folded into a number
| of unrelated concepts: neuroticism, openness to experience, and
| agreeableness.
|
| I think that people get attached to the introvert/extravert
| division because it's the most clearly defined by social
| relations. It takes less introspection to be able to look at
| social group and define one's self relative to one's peers in
| terms of how much others seem to enjoy spending time in shared
| company compared to one's self.
|
| The reality is that somebody might crave a lot of human contact
| but be paralyzed by social anxiety (that's me). Or maybe they
| don't want to leave their comfort zone but once out there can
| engage in long deep conversations with others, even strangers. We
| also mix into that stew social lubricants like alcohol, drugs,
| and board games that can warp a social situation and reward
| different social behaviors.
|
| Ultimately, I think people understand a lot less about themselves
| than they realize (and I include myself in that). We latch onto
| the simplest categories, and we especially love categories that
| depict us as victims of societal circumstance, or somehow
| superior to the people around us.
|
| The reality is that if you pick one dimension of psychological
| categorization like a diagnosis or a trait like introversion, and
| then look at all the people who share that, I think they share
| less in common than they might assume.
| mkl95 wrote:
| Being open with a select group of collaborators has gained me
| above average praise, promotions, etc. over the years. You don't
| need to be an extrovert to be an average or slightly above
| average engineer, you just have to pick your battles
| appropriately and understand the problems you are solving. OP is
| optimizing for a rat race that most people don't care about.
| red-iron-pine wrote:
| you don't have to play the game all of the time, just be social
| with the right people in the right places.
| FuriouslyAdrift wrote:
| If I spend a lot of time socializing in a group of people I do
| not closely know, I will experience intense depression and loss
| of energy for about a day or so.
|
| That's introversion.
|
| I love being around people but it sucks the life out of me. I get
| energized through working on projects and reading. Inherently
| private pursuits.
| andyjohnson0 wrote:
| My impression is that (a) extraverts and introverts both have
| some mutual incomprehension, but that (b) this is greater in
| extraverts.
|
| Am I just projecting my own introvert bias onto (b) here? Or is
| there something structural that is responsible for this? Or am i
| completely wrong about (a)? Thoughts?
| hidelooktropic wrote:
| I know the author is well meaning, but for some part of the
| population, this is just more of the same hurtful invalidation
| we've received our entire lives.
|
| Being neurodivergent involves others constantly encouraging us to
| set ourselves up for failure.
|
| They don't see the exhaustion so they expect us to push through.
| They don't have our limits so they expect us to overcome ours.
| They have will power to get them what we don't have so they think
| we aren't using ours.
|
| There's nothing in here that hasn't occurred to me before. And
| it's not necessarily that the conclusions are incorrect, but that
| for some people they come at an extreme cost to mental health and
| are not truly sustainable.
|
| I would love to hear people voicing acceptance instead of more of
| the same of telling us that we should try harder when we're
| already trying to the point of constant overwhelm.
| hinkley wrote:
| Nothing I love more than being lectured by neurotypicals.
| UniverseHacker wrote:
| This author does not seem to understand extroversion vs
| introversion - it relates entirely to your inner experience not
| your behaviors, and cannot be changed. An introvert can enjoy and
| be good at social interaction, and use it effectively at work-
| but they will still be an introvert, and as such will need to
| ration the energy social interaction uses. This is not "being an
| extrovert." Many very successful people that are skilled at
| networking and social interaction are introverted.
|
| I like to point out Captain Picard from Star Trek as an
| (obviously fictional but quite realistic) character that is
| introverted, yet renown for social and negotiation skills.
|
| When people talk about "becoming extroverted" they usually mean
| developing social skills, overcoming social anxiety, and/or
| overcoming antisocial attitudes. All of those things are
| completely orthogonal to introversion.
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