[HN Gopher] Simulating C. elegans brain, body and environment in...
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Simulating C. elegans brain, body and environment interactions
Author : lamename
Score : 59 points
Date : 2024-12-26 13:23 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| ruthmarx wrote:
| I have this simulation on my computer, it's really interesting to
| see. Limited inputs, and the same neurons light up every time for
| the same input.
|
| These animals are 'conscious' yet not capable of any kind of
| higher thought, basically just a early type of organic robot.
| Fascinating.
| dsjoerg wrote:
| Openworm looks interesting but also looks dead so.
| Palomides wrote:
| my bystander understanding: the problem is that openworm knows
| how the neurons are connected, but not how they're weighted and
| trigger each other, or how it adjusts them, and it seems like
| there hasn't been enough funding to take it to the next level
| in the past, like, 15 years
|
| it's unclear to me how much of the result from this paper is
| algorithmic rather than directly founded in measured data, but
| it's very cool to see more work in this area.
| verteu wrote:
| They claim their simulation moves in a "zigzag" pattern
| that's qualitatively similar to the real animal:
|
| > During locomotion, the input of sensory neurons exhibited
| fluctuations due to the zigzag movement of the body's head
| (Fig. 5c). The membrane potentials of each individual motor
| neuron also oscillated in response to the sensory input,
| especially the head motor neurons (Fig. 5d). The activation
| of muscle cells revealed traveling waves from the head to the
| tail (Supplementary Fig. 4), accompanied by alternating
| contractions and relaxations of dorsal and ventral muscle
| cells (Fig. 5e). These findings resemble observations in
| biological experiments
| RaftPeople wrote:
| > _They claim their simulation moves in a "zigzag" pattern
| that's qualitatively similar to the real animal:_
|
| It seems like they need to show it following chemical
| gradients the way c elegans does, I don't think any of
| these simulations has been successful at that.
| cyberax wrote:
| I remember reading a blog post saying that C. elegans is not a
| good example of neural networks, for the same reason demoscene
| is not a good example of computer programming. C. elegans
| connectome was tweaked and optimized by evolution to be as
| compact as possible.
|
| So just like with demoscene, untangling and simulating it will
| require deep knowledge of the underlying "physical" platform.
| More complex organisms might actually be _easier_ to simulate.
| ruthmarx wrote:
| > C. elegans connectome was tweaked and optimized by
| evolution to be as compact as possible.
|
| It's not like it's compressed or optimized or anything, it's
| just incredibly simple.
| cyberax wrote:
| It's not that simple.
|
| A third of the body of C.elegans consists of neural tissue,
| it's incredibly energy-expensive. So it was optimized a
| lot, and there are some hidden interactions between neurons
| that are not directly connected.
| ruthmarx wrote:
| > there are some hidden interactions between neurons that
| are not directly connected.
|
| How is that possible? What is the link, the method of
| communication? If that isn't known how is it known the
| interaction is taking place?
|
| Do you still have the link to the blog post?
| webnrrd2k wrote:
| Hormones, I think... I'm not sure exactly what the g.p.
| post is referring to, but in people there are a lot of
| non-direct interactions, too. The one's I'm (only
| slightly) familiar with are hormones. Maybe there are
| others?
| eli_gottlieb wrote:
| "Hidden interactions" in c. elegans typically refers to
| chemical signaling rather than electrical. Of course,
| chemical signaling is tolerated in all nervous systems
| whenever its slow speed doesn't bring down the cruel
| hammer of natural selection.
|
| https://www.jstor.org/stable/j.ctt17kk982
| cyberax wrote:
| > How is that possible?
|
| Chemical signals, including spillovers of
| neurotransmitters. I'm trying to find the post, but it
| was 20 years ago.
| ruthmarx wrote:
| No worries, thanks for looking! I'm still new to learning
| about a lot of this stuff, and didn't realize neurons in
| the body could use chemical signals to communicate with
| the brain.
|
| I still don't see how that indicates their brain is more
| advanced than we might think, though. What are the
| reasons to assume that?
| pests wrote:
| The open worm can die too!?
|
| /s
| fnordpiglet wrote:
| https://github.com/Jessie940611/BAAIWorm
| xt00 wrote:
| Reminds me of "Devs": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xEfyT3vLD2c
| sitkack wrote:
| The worm has entered the multiverse.
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