[HN Gopher] The trap of "I am not an extrovert"
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The trap of "I am not an extrovert"
Author : orkohunter
Score : 51 points
Date : 2024-12-26 09:29 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (orkohunter.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (orkohunter.net)
| Vampiero wrote:
| Well too bad ADHD makes me a fast thinker that talks over
| everyone else and writes code at 6x speed, but only sometimes,
| when I'm not procrastinating for hours at a time and when I'm not
| too mentally drained to engage with other people. It makes me an
| extrovert at work, but only sometimes, and a great team player,
| but only sometimes.
|
| These blog posts feel so dumb to me because they always assume
| that you're a neurotypical and that everyone around you also is a
| neurotypical. That if you just put in the effort, you too can do
| it!
|
| Well guess what? No, it's not like that. In fact, this mode of
| thinking is exactly the problem that makes my life hell. Fuck
| this. If I'm working remotely it's because idgaf about other
| people - not any more than strictly necessary to complete my
| tasks. Stop trying to gaslight me into thinking I'm wrong, stop
| trying to force me to go on trips and to delegate and to talk to
| other people - this is an adaptation for my own survival. I went
| into programming because I like writing code. That's literally
| the start and the end of it. It's not my fault the industry is
| 99% web development and 1% fun stuff for people on [a] spectrum.
| I'm here because if I weren't I would starve, not because I care
| about your company or the people you hired. Even though I'll
| gladly chit-chat with them from time to time, and even form
| friendships if I deem it worth it.
| kkoncevicius wrote:
| I think you are taking yourself too seriously.
| mnky9800n wrote:
| Can't imagine this attitude makes work easier for you nor does
| it make working with you easier. People keep making these "I'm
| on the spectrum" arguments as if it's a legitimate excuse for
| bad behaviour. Perhaps life is more difficult for you in some
| ways. Life isn't fair, learning to accept this is much more
| rewarding than hiding behind some spectrum definition. ADHD
| doesn't make you do anything. You choose your life.
| zenethian wrote:
| I mean, it literally does make you do things. That's why it's
| a mental disorder.
| erinaceousjones wrote:
| What, in the post you are replying to, would you consider
| "bad behaviour"? Seriously, give us some examples!
| creaktive wrote:
| Heyyy, take it easy :) Would you call it "bad behavior" when
| a mute person refuses to speak? Well, A(u)DHD kind of makes
| one deaf, mute and blind to the standard communication style.
| That's why the afflicted prefer to WFH, and text instead of
| face-to-face. Some are always impaired so, while others, only
| when tired.
| mnky9800n wrote:
| I know. I'm diagnosed. I found that when I stopped using it
| as an excuse and started engaging my career and life in the
| ways I assumed adhd made them worse, I started succeeding
| in ways I thought I wouldn't. My message is don't become a
| person who identifies as a person with adhd. It will only
| hold you back in my experience.
| creaktive wrote:
| I understand your point better now, thanks for
| elaborating! I do relate to the experience of stopping
| using my diagnosis as an excuse for pushing people away.
| My life is so much better now. Yet, for me, a pair
| programming session (for instance) is something I prefer
| doing, like, once a month, or less. But I certainly do
| enjoy it, a lot!
| int_19h wrote:
| > ADHD doesn't make you do anything.
|
| It literally does.
| delichon wrote:
| I was a fat little kid with a skinny friend who told me the
| secret to losing weight (which he had never had the need to
| do): just don't eat so much. He was not gas lighting me in any
| way. He was just communicating his internal experience that
| this thing that I found tremendously difficult was in fact
| trivially easy and I just had to try it. He wasn't lying, just
| telling me his truth which happened to be false. Don't
| attribute malice to obliviousness.
| drowsspa wrote:
| I'd attribute malice when this advice comes from supposedly
| grown-ups.
| seba_dos1 wrote:
| Exactly. At some point, obliviousness itself becomes
| malicious.
| creaktive wrote:
| Was going to write approximately this, thanks for beating me to
| it. Just a bit of sparkling from my own (mostly miserable)
| experience: the disdain for "normies" comes from them,
| "normies", forcing a square peg (me, atypical) into a round
| hole. There's zero intention for accommodating for the
| differences. Predictably, as a result you get an extremely
| antisocial introvert. But guess what! If you just LEAVE ME BE,
| respect my silence and self-isolation... I will reach out and
| try to connect, on my own terms. Usually, by written text,
| since I don't parse voices well, and don't read facial
| expressions at all.
| knorker wrote:
| > What they don't realize is - everyone is an introvert and
| everyone is an extrovert.
|
| Citation needed.
|
| > I looked into his eyes and saw the disgust for everyone in the
| room.
|
| That's not how human interaction or theory of mind works.
|
| This article is "not even wrong". It's just subjective bullshit
| (in the technical definition of the word bullshit).
|
| It's probably the most ill informed post I've ever seen on the
| front page of HN.
| SecretDreams wrote:
| > It's probably the most ill informed post I've ever seen on
| the front page of HN.
|
| Ever seen _so far_
| zenethian wrote:
| This is a terrible article that reads like an AI generated
| LinkedIn post.
|
| Nevermind the fact that the author isn't using the terms
| introvert and extrovert correctly; the message is quite ableist.
| Not everyone can achieve this level of communication in a
| productive manner. Telling people that management will "prefer"
| one over the other when it's "budget time" is also dead wrong.
| I've fired more extroverts than introverts in my career, and it's
| likely only a coincidence.
|
| The author sounds like one of those "proud extroverts" that they
| made up into existence.
| erinaceousjones wrote:
| I think you have good points in your middle paragraph, but I
| disagree with your first sentence. I can see a growing trend of
| dismissive "this reads like it's AI-generated" when I frankly
| think it _has_ been written like that. Author has a similar
| tone to me. That 's my writing style.
|
| > Not everyone can achieve this level of communication in a
| productive manner.
|
| Correct, and it sucks. I feel like it's ableist at times too.
| 9-to-5 days of small-talk are so strangely exhausting t me.
| It's very frustrating I feel it's a mandatory part of my career
| if I don't want to be forgotten about.
|
| But? I don't disagree with the author. In my interpretation,
| they aren't saying "I'm an extrovert and I'm great", they're
| saying "hey, this is a thing you can choose to do or be, and
| you may find it benefits you, and the introvert/extrovert thing
| is a stupid distinction, but being extrovert in the right way
| is a means of making yourself visible".
|
| Because, let's face it, it _is_. There _is_ some entrenched
| ableism, in a way. Last I checked like 10-20% of western
| population is some form of neurodiverse and a proportion of
| that just do not click with the predominant communication
| styles used by the majority population. It sucks and we are
| left feeling like we are not accommodated for and can easily
| fall into that exhausted feeling of resentment.
|
| But? So what? You can help make things incrementally better for
| yourself in the system whilst still "playing the game", if you
| consider it as something you are _choosing_ to expend your
| energy on.
| knorker wrote:
| I held back a similar comment about AI-generated. I think the
| "AI-generated" accusation is overused. This article was
| incoherent nonsense, but not all incoherent nonsense
| hallucinations are AI-generated.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| People underestimate how old incoherent writing is. For
| that matter they underestimate how hard it is to write
| coherently.
| int_19h wrote:
| The author straight up says that being an introvert or an
| extrovert is a choice.
|
| They clearly have no idea what it actually feels like being an
| introvert.
| card_zero wrote:
| > No matter what role you play, you will always have to
| communicate and collaborate with others. If this is something you
| disagree with, you should go back to the drawing board and think
| deeply.
|
| Sounds good, that's what I wanted.
|
| > you should check out Thinking Fast and Slow.
|
| I checked it out:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow#Replic...
|
| _It was discovered many prominent research findings were
| difficult or impossible for others to replicate, and thus the
| original findings were called into question. An analysis of the
| studies cited in chapter 4, "The Associative Machine", found that
| their replicability index (R-index) is 14, indicating essentially
| low to no reliability._
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| One thing to me is fairly obvious: people who are introverts
| _can_ be social, but only for limited amounts of time.
|
| For example, I like talking a lot, but I can only do it for
| limited amounts of time. Maybe only a few hours a week. If I'm
| pushed past that point, I just don't want to chat any more. It's
| like I'm full of food, but with socialization. After that I find
| socialization immensely distasteful and irritating.
|
| That's why a 9-5 workplace environment never worked for me. It
| was forced socialization past my limit. Maybe that's what
| happened to the guy in this article: they go into defensive mode
| because they are pushed past their limit.
|
| Extroverts don't understand this concept of limited capacity for
| socialization.
| fnord77 wrote:
| > people who are introverts can be social
|
| not if they have social anxiety or are not NT
|
| > but only for limited amounts of time.
|
| but yes, this is true. And it is not something you can build up
| like a muscle or long distance running. In fact I think trying
| to build up the amount of time you socialize actually
| diminishes it
| zimpenfish wrote:
| > not if they have social anxiety
|
| I have (frequent) crippling social anxiety, am definitely an
| introvert, and I can be social -in the right
| circumstances-[0] (albeit for a limited period of time[1].)
|
| [0] eg. small group of people I know well, familiar
| surroundings, ideally without a lot of external noise.
|
| [1] 3-4 hours tends to be my limit even under the best
| circumstances.
| michaelcampbell wrote:
| Everything is true except for the edge cases where it's not;
| pointing this out I think is unnecessary.
| fnord77 wrote:
| if something is true everywhere except the edge cases, it
| is not true everywhere.
| SecretDreams wrote:
| > Extroverts don't understand this concept of limited capacity
| for socialization.
|
| I think there's gotta be a middle ground where someverts are
| more tolerant of socializing for long periods of time. It still
| becomes draining, but they don't have some terrible allergic
| reaction. More like just mild sneezing!
| neofrommatrix wrote:
| It's a spectrum - most of us are ambiverts.
| amelius wrote:
| I also find that switching between introvert and extrovert mode
| takes effort. If you like being in an introvert mode, then in
| social environments you move a lot of times between both modes
| (because you fall back into introvert mode, until someone
| starts talking to you), and this can be tiring.
| inciampati wrote:
| Yes, extroverts do understand this limited capacity. It's like
| when you live an ultra sedentary lifestyle, and one day you
| realize you can't catch your breath after walking up four
| flights of stairs. Like any capacity, socializing requires
| exercise. We are all descended from a long line of people who
| lived extremely social lives. It's only in the last decade or
| two that it became possible to live a productive live by text,
| alone, without the intense realtime, full mind and full body
| experience of being with other people. Use it or lose it. And
| don't assume socialization is easy for some class of
| "extroverts" who are dominating "introverts" into being full
| members of the organizations which they work for. It's hard,
| worthwhile work for everyone. Socialization capacity is like
| any trait. You have to use it or you'll lose it. I say this
| because I think modern life is depopulating as people decide
| they have a condition that's some kind of innate disability. I
| wish y'all would accept that it's just hard, but worth it.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| Good counterpoint but I think there's definitely a variance
| in ease amongst the population. Don't get me wrong, I agree
| with you. I am the kind of person that will socialize because
| I know it's a good thing in general. But I do think some
| people can perform "socialization feats" just in the same way
| the best bodybuilders can get super jacked whereas there is
| no way I'm lookin' like Arnold. haha.
| jrs235 wrote:
| Extroverts also need to work on sitting in silence, IMO...
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42517790
| ACow_Adonis wrote:
| So what you're saying is that extroversion is curable with a
| bit of a change of social behaviours and environment, and
| with a bit of practice, discipline and repetition we can turn
| them into mathematicians, farmers, hunters, philosophers,
| scientists, monks, priests and witch doctors and negate this
| artificial always networking and hustling environment that's
| only been created in the last 200 years with the industrial
| revolution, communication revolution and growth obsessed
| capitalism :)
|
| This gives me hope: there's no silver bullet, but one day we
| can find a cure for our modern curse of excessive
| extroversion :)
| blueflow wrote:
| Or maybe "I'm introverted" i just the nice form for "You are
| annoying and i don't enjoy being around you".
| halfcat wrote:
| Yes. I always thought this captured it well:
|
| _"I used to think I was introverted because I really liked
| being alone but it turns out I just like being at peace and
| I am very extroverted when I'm around people who bring me
| peace."_
| Dalewyn wrote:
| >We are all descended from a long line of people who lived
| extremely social lives.
|
| Just because something was a _necessity_ for a greater cause
| in ye olde days does not mean that it is also a _good_ thing
| in itself. Now that it 's not a strict necessity, a not
| insignificant number of people are admitting they don't like
| it.
|
| Personally I consider myself more intro- than extrovert. I
| find people dishonest (even the most honest ones) and dealing
| with that reality is extremely tiring.
| lolinder wrote:
| > We are all descended from a long line of people who lived
| extremely social lives. It's only in the last decade or two
| that it became possible to live a productive live by text,
| alone, without the intense realtime, full mind and full body
| experience of being with other people.
|
| Most of us are descended from people who lived in small
| communities and rarely interacted with people who lived
| outside of them. It's only in the last 200 years (an instant
| on evolutionary timescales) that the majority of humanity
| ended up in a position where we have to constantly deal with
| more than ~30 people on a regular basis.
|
| Sure, we spent a lot of time with those 30 people in the
| past, but calling that "extremely social" is pretty
| misleading in the modern context--today that kind of wording
| evokes a very different image than the small-scale village
| life that dominated our ancestors' lives.
|
| I'm a hardcore introvert by modern standards, but for me that
| doesn't mean that I don't enjoy spending time with my small
| circle of friends and family, it means that when I branch out
| beyond that small circle socialization is actively draining.
| I'd have done just fine in village life, it's the completely
| unnatural modern world that is overwhelming to my social
| limits, and I get rather tired of extroverts telling me that
| it's just because I don't try hard enough to "exercise".
| siva7 wrote:
| So you seriously think that humans two, three decades ago
| were extroverted because they couldn't live a productive life
| by not being extremely sociable and introverted is an
| unnatural condition where you just need more social
| excercise? Is this the intellectual level of this community
| now?
| yabatopia wrote:
| Socializing is a skill and requires exercise, but everyone
| has its own unique limitations and skill levels. Not everyone
| throughout history has led an exceptionally social life
| filled with constant conversation. There are plenty of
| references to quiet and seclusive people in the bible, for
| instance. In the Middle Ages, you could join a monastery or
| convent, which provided a community more suited for
| introverts. Right now, I wouldn't be surprised if many
| introverts feel there is no escape from the extrovert modern
| life.
| lolinder wrote:
| Yep.
|
| It's notable to me every time this topic comes up on HN
| that an extrovert invariably comes on and straight up tries
| to argue that introverts are just people who don't try hard
| enough. When that happens to people with other biological
| differences it's immediately and rightly decried--even
| other mental differences have become increasingly
| recognized and protected from that kind of condescending
| judgement--but the combination of the hidden-ness of the
| difference and the fact that those with this difference are
| less prone to speak up to defend themselves means that it's
| okay to tell a whole class of people that the difference
| between them and the average case is that average people
| try harder.
| theshrike79 wrote:
| > We are all descended from a long line of people who lived
| extremely social lives
|
| Do you think the hunters who were huntering kept chatting all
| the time? Or the gatherers looking for berries/mushrooms just
| talked and talked and talked and judged anyone who went by
| themselves?
|
| Did the goat herder have people walk up the hill with them to
| prattle on about their family life or could they perhaps be
| alone in there? Or any craftsman for that matter. The cobbler
| could just spend time making shoes, they didn't need to talk
| to customers for 12 hours a day constantly.
| SpicyLemonZest wrote:
| > And don't assume socialization is easy for some class of
| "extroverts" who are dominating "introverts" into being full
| members of the organizations which they work for.
|
| I don't assume that - people tell me as much! I have close
| friends who assure me that socializing is _not_ hard work for
| them, and they'd yap all day if they didn't control
| themselves the same way that I would read or play games all
| day if I didn't control myself.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| None of that jives with any of my observations.
|
| In my immediate circle alone - my sister is a strong
| extrovert and always has been. She thrives on large groups.
| If she's stressed and wants to relax she'll go to a party or
| downtown dance club or hang out with a dozen acquaintances.
| She's been that way since tween. I bring her up because she's
| very upfront, and I trust and bekieve her, that social
| engagements alone are NOT, and never have been, hard work or
| effort. They're natural to her, she gains energy from them,
| she enjoys them tremendously, and gets recharged through
| them. This is not my external observation but her convincing
| expression. I know others like that.
|
| Then there's me :-). Lot of that, such as parties and dance
| clubs and even large groups of friends, sounds awful to me.
| Easy on assumptions though : As per my parallel comment, I've
| been a client-facing consultant for 20 years. I practice and
| teach soft skills and emotional intelligence at fairly high
| level at work. Having started as a hands-on techie for the
| first decade of my career, I haven't written a line of code
| since 2018 - ALL I do now is talk to and manage and coach and
| mentor people, meet with clients, etc. I spend about 7 hrs a
| day actively engaging people professionally.
|
| And it's still as draining as it is rewarding and enjoyable.
| 20 years of active practice and daily high level
| socialization has not meaningfully moved the needle on
| whether I gain energy from people, like my sister always has,
| or drain energy even with people I enjoy doing activity I
| like.
|
| Absolutely there's detail and granularity to this - I love
| teaching and have been a visiting professor for 3 years at
| local college. I love mentoring and coaching and do it daily.
| But at the end do the day I strongly crave alone time to
| recharge after social activities (which is what I call "being
| an introvert"), whereas I know people (I call them extrovert)
| who simply don't need that, at all. The notion that simply
| practice can change that, hasn't been the case for anybody I
| know.
|
| You can gain _skills_ and that 's indeed worthwhile! But that
| does not automatically alter the energy management situation.
|
| So my apologies, but your post is the most literal proof that
| some extroverts _don 't_ understand this, at all, and like
| Freud, make wild assumptions based on limited internal
| experience :-/. It's less of a capacity thing, which I'll
| agree may get expanded, and more of what does activity do and
| how does it draw on that capacity.
| kubb wrote:
| It's quite treacherous to identify yourself with labels:
| introvert, extrovert, conscientious, conservative, liberal,
| empathetic, neurodivergent, etc.
|
| The act of putting a name on some traits that you have can seem
| liberating: I finally know what I am, and why I'm different from
| others, and that's fine.
|
| On the flipside, once you commit to a label, you lock yourself
| inside it, and instead of describing, it begins shaping what you
| are.
|
| It doesn't help that other people often try very hard to pin us
| down and assign labels to us forcefully, without considering if
| we're OK with that.
|
| The trick is to describe your behavior and separate that from
| yourself. Instead of being an introvert you can just say that my
| behavior was introverted, and that was a function of my internal
| psychological state.
|
| Also, be open to experimenting with what affects that state, and
| reflect on it. That will remind you that _you're not a constant,
| you're a function_ :)
| hgomersall wrote:
| Neurodivergence is a really useful concept in that it
| recognises that "typical" just means a certain cognitive
| profile. The problem I expect is that in certain fields (STEM?)
| it's actually more normal to be divergent from the mainstream.
| If you understand how your particular neural profile makes you
| understand and experience the world, you are in a good position
| to understand how it might be different to others.
|
| In a sense, attaching a special label to a particular
| neurodivergent profile is as problematic as assigning special
| significance to the "neurotypical" profile.
| rors wrote:
| I was diagnosed with dyslexia in my 40s. It's helped me
| understand why I struggle with certain tasks. Overall having a
| label has been a net positive.
|
| I'm hesitant to share my diagnosis with colleagues. I've been
| able to develop coping mechanisms and I feel like it doesn't
| impact my day-to-day. I don't want to cause disruption for
| those around me. I do have a friend with much more severe
| dyslexia and she does get the help she needs to be productive.
|
| I wish we could discuss these labels at work without baggage.
| It's all about consideration. Forcing everyone around you to
| change their behaviour around you to make yourself feel more
| comfortable is not being considerate. On the flip side
| enforcing strict working policies that prevent people from
| participating in the workplace is also not considerate.
| teddyh wrote:
| Regarding labels:
| <https://www.egscomics.com/comic/2015-05-23>
| SecretDreams wrote:
| Absolutely! The labels some may seek to feel a deeper sense of
| community and understanding end up becoming shackles.
|
| People don't need to just be one thing. We are fluid. And can
| and should have opinions and stances that wane over time.
| satisfice wrote:
| That's like saying it's treacherous to lock a door. After all,
| you might lose the key!
|
| I label myself in many ways. These labels are heuristics that
| define me to myself as well as others. These labels simplify
| the management of my life in a way similar to choosing a
| particular type of computer or a particular email client does.
|
| I am free to change my labels, but there is a cost to that.
| There is also a cost to avoiding labels.
|
| I wouldn't say it is a treacherous matter at all. It's a matter
| of personal economy and finding a comfortable way to relate to
| the world.
|
| I have sometimes used your heuristic of labeling behavior
| rather than identity. That can be useful, too. But however you
| try to do that, an implication hangs in the air: "You are
| obviously the kind of person who does things like that."
| mrweasel wrote:
| I think that one of the major issues is that people will use
| certain labels to help justifying behaving in a certain way, or
| avoid specific tasks and situations. E.g. a ton of people hate
| talking on the phone, for reasons that are beyond me, and they
| will justify this is being introvert or having some sort of
| social anxiety, while at the same time being outgoing and
| extroverted in pretty much every other situation.
|
| As I grow old I've stopped trying to put labels on my behavior.
| They rarely fit and society expects that I act or believe in
| certain ways depending on how those labels are generally
| perceived.
| polishdude20 wrote:
| As I've grown older I realize I'm all of the labels at
| different times of the day, different days, with different
| people etc. The more I take this to heart the more I grow and
| allow myself to have new experiences that a self label would
| have stopped me from doing because I'm not "that" kind of
| person.
| reedf1 wrote:
| These labels are quite obviously overused. Like most social
| characteristics, there is a spectrum. I can, and have, gone
| without seeing another person for months - and I've barely
| noticed. Now, I go into work five times a week. I do think I come
| off as odd to people; but I don't mind, I'm not proud of it, but
| I'm not embarrassed by it either. I am what I am. Earlier in life
| I put great effort into being "normal" socially, but with great
| effort also came enormous stress.
|
| I've not struggled with work or partners. There are lots of
| people who don't seem to mind the occasional oddity or silence in
| a group. Although, I do occasionally run into some self-righteous
| lot who try to "fix" me; but I find this condescending. There are
| lots of ways to be a person, and I am truly fulfilled with the
| way I am. Most friction this has ever caused is by someone
| wanting me to be some other way, usually theirs.
| impoppy wrote:
| Introverts, fight me.
|
| What's up with "you extroverts don't understand we have very
| limited capacity for socialization?" I simply cannot comprehend
| how something as enjoyable as spending time with people you like
| can be so mentally taxing?
|
| I tend to think that it's because of the attitude that implies
| that the one has to waste mental energy on having a good time.
| zenethian wrote:
| I love talking to people. Unfortunately it's exhausting for me.
| I have no such attitude about it being a "waste [of] mental
| energy." I don't know any introverts that do.
|
| I would recommend taking a deep breath and just consider for a
| second that some people are just different than you.
| reedf1 wrote:
| I love to waste mental energy on having a good time - chess,
| puzzles, board games, crosswords, programming. But spending
| time with people isn't like that. Talking to a group of people
| I half-know is like someone has slipped a hobby-knife under my
| fingernail and is slowly extending it. I can feasibly have a
| good conversation, or even notionally a good time; but it's
| hard to ignore the knife.
| MattPalmer1086 wrote:
| You find it enjoyable to be with people you like all the time.
| Other people don't and reach a point where it becomes
| uncomfortable to continue.
|
| It's not because of some weird attitude about wasting energy on
| having a good time. Quite the opposite; once you reach your
| limit, it becomes wasting mental energy on _not_ having a good
| time.
| creaktive wrote:
| Consider this: you can't read facial expressions, nor the tone
| of the voice. Moreover, most people you interact with
| misinterpret your face/voice, assuming you're joking when
| you're dead serious (and vice versa). So, you come up with
| strategies to cope with your deficiencies. Basically, playbooks
| of what to say if you hear/see so and so, filling the gaps in
| your sensorium. What's handled by an "autopilot" for most, is a
| very complicated manual procedure for you. I'm oversimplifying
| here, of course. There are nuances, but it always boils down to
| this switch to manual controls when one is tired, and then
| becoming even more tired and overwhelmed. Hope this helps!
| impoppy wrote:
| This was the best explanation. I forgot I used to be this
| awkward as well for many years and the autopilot/manual
| analogy is just great. I did get much better at this though
| through lots of practice and patiently wasting my mental
| energy and having many awkward interactions, now it's all
| just natural to me. I'll be called an ableist and downvoted,
| however, I don't really understand what's stopping others
| from suffering through discomfort to get used to it and not
| see it as discomfort anymore. Although I did get lucky with
| my friends groups at the university and first companies I
| worked for.
| knorker wrote:
| > This was the best explanation.
|
| It's the only one you choose to believe.
|
| > I don't really understand what's stopping others from
| suffering through discomfort to get used to it and not see
| it as discomfort anymore
|
| I wouldn't call it ableist to assume that everybody is just
| like you. People are different. You wouldn't say "if only
| everyone suffered through reading this physics book, they'd
| surely understand the glory of physics, and become
| physicists".
|
| Or "if only someone would just read my religion's book,
| then obviously they'd instantly become a devout follower of
| my particular god?".
|
| It all seems profoundly ignorant, naive, lacking both
| empathy and theory of mind.
| creaktive wrote:
| Thank you! I'm glad this metaphor works. As for me,
| practice did bring many improvements, too. I did stop
| aiming for "becoming a natural", however. Good enough, is,
| well, good enough. I'm always trying to improve, of course!
| Yet, at least for me, it is so easy to accidentally end up
| just masking, instead of being myself. And masking is a
| path that brought me to the darkest places. Hence, I
| strongly believe that there is a hardwired ceiling, that
| manifests as discomfort. See, some people train hard and
| benchpress the weight of a small car. Other people get
| seriously injured before hitting 100kg. I see no reason for
| brain being any different.
| knorker wrote:
| > Introverts, fight me.
|
| Unhelpful.
|
| > I simply cannot comprehend how something as enjoyable as
| spending time with people you like can be so mentally taxing?
|
| It's not a perfect analogy, but you might as well blame people
| for eventually needing to sleep.
|
| It's super enjoyable to be awake. What could possibly make you
| want to stop what you're doing, only to go into a dark room and
| do NOTHING for eight whole hours?!
|
| Some people are also tortured by silence, and they simply MUST
| talk non stop. To other people, never just having a quiet
| moment is torture. Are you the former? If you never again in
| your life had two awake seconds without someone talking, would
| that be heaven or hell?
|
| > I tend to think that it's because of the attitude that
| implies that the one has to waste mental energy on having a
| good time.
|
| You said "I simply cannot comprehend[...]". How about you stick
| to that, instead of baselessly saying introverts must simply
| have an attitude problem?
| dqv wrote:
| Most introverts are totally fine with spending time with people
| (albeit in smaller intimate settings). They are just (a lot)
| more comfortable with "awkward silence" than extraverts are.
| Spending time with someone shouldn't mean the entire occasion
| is filled with talking amongst eachother. Honestly I'm glad I
| can appreciate both.
|
| Introvert social recipe, mileage may vary
|
| 1. Cozy room, moody lighting
|
| 2. Nice vinyl (harder to pause ). You'll probably want a print
| out of the lyrics if applicable
|
| 3. Maybe some projected visualizations or visualizations on a
| TV
|
| 4. Vibe
|
| 5. Discussion time at the end will vary, but idk, it's still
| fun to me to sit around cool people and have a mutual
| experience that doesn't require talking, so that's enough for
| me. It's also an opportunity to have them suggest a new album
| to listen to next time, but you also have to accept you might
| not get immediate feedback because they want to spend more time
| thinking about it.
|
| Think of basically anything else that doesn't require talking
| and you can spend time with an introvert doing that. Part of
| what makes them uncomfortable in social situations is feeling
| pressure to say something when they have nothing to say. Allow
| the silence to happen.
|
| You do have to have introvert break out rooms at parties. A
| sound machine drowns out the noise. No extraverted behavior in
| the break out room! Extraverts who can't respect the boundary
| don't get another invitation.
|
| Oh and of course extraverts should know better than anyone that
| sometimes people just don't like you and that's ok. That's one
| downside of hanging out with some extraverts... extravert-on-
| extravert violence is pretty exhausting.
|
| The best thing you can do for comprehending an introvert is
| realize that not all social interactions have to fit your
| preconceived notion of what a social interaction is.
| lljk_kennedy wrote:
| My intersect of "people I like" and "people I have to spend
| time with" is likely smaller than yours.
| zb3 wrote:
| Well, you've answered your own question - "you cannot
| comprehend", but others can. This should inspire you to
| question your own views first, then look for the answers in a
| more humble way.
| int_19h wrote:
| > I simply cannot comprehend how something as enjoyable as
| spending time with people you like can be so mentally taxing?
|
| Similarly, I simply cannot comprehend how something as tedious
| as partying with dozens of people you hardly even know can
| _not_ be so mentally taxing.
|
| But that's fine. We don't need to comprehend how it works in
| others. We just need to accept that it does indeed work in
| different ways for different people, and treat them
| accordingly, as we ourselves wish to be treated by those who
| can't comprehend how it works for us.
| jasdi wrote:
| Try framing it in terms of what you Need from people. Avoiding
| using "should" so much. It will help you become conscious of what
| your needs are. Confusing your needs with others needs is also a
| trap.
|
| We can only talk in terms of our Needs and why those needs are
| important to us. Anything else sounds like passing judgement and
| the reaction will be negative.
| BeetleB wrote:
| > Avoiding using "should" so much.
|
| I have two phrases I use often:
|
| "Should is not in my vocabulary"
|
| "Should is a lazy word"
|
| People use words like "should" and "must" to get around
| explaining their perspectives.
|
| I remember early in my career, I made a request for a feature
| to an employee in another team. Their SW was allowing users to
| specify parameters that made the whole model unphysical, and it
| was a burden on us users to always double check that parameter
| "X" was not negative. The SW wouldn't fail. It would simply not
| give correct results (and they wouldn't be wildly wrong that
| you'll quickly realize it).
|
| I requested that they simply not allow a negative value. We
| didn't always put one there - sometimes it was the output of
| another process, and I didn't want to continually check that
| our automation wasn't putting in unphysical values.
|
| The response? "The engineer should be diligent in making sure
| the value is not negative".
|
| Should is a lazy word. He didn't explain at all why he's
| rejecting the feature request. I would have preferred "Low
| priority - we simply don't have the time."
|
| Start counting how often someone uses the word as a way to
| avoid explaining him/herself.
| HPsquared wrote:
| For me the "energy gain" / "energy drain" question depends
| MASSIVELY on who I happen to be spending time with. So much so
| that recently I'm doubting if I even am an introvert. With the
| right people it's all good.
| ambicapter wrote:
| Yup, I've never bought into the intro/extrovert spectrum
| because it doesn't really seem to cover some pretty common
| cases.
| jghn wrote:
| This is me as well. For me it's not "socializing = energy
| drain" or the opposite. It's more about situations. In most
| situations I find talking with people, being in crowds, etc to
| be draining. But plop me into what is a relatively small list
| of "right circumstances" and it's the exact opposite.
| Jensson wrote:
| > In most situations I find talking with people, being in
| crowds, etc to be draining
|
| Then you are an introvert. They are talking about most
| situations, if there are some cliques you feel comfortable
| around then you are still an introvert.
|
| Extroverts has a small set of situations where they get
| drained instead. It isn't like anyone loves all human
| contact, its just some have an issue with most contact and
| others like it most of the time.
| happytoexplain wrote:
| I've always assumed people are largely the same, socially. I.e.
| we enjoy being with people we mesh with, and don't enjoy being
| with people we don't mesh with. The thing is, you can like
| people you don't mesh with. You might not have a single bad
| thing to say of a person, yet still have no interest in hanging
| out with them.
|
| And then, surprise, being forced to do things you don't enjoy
| is draining. Especially when it involves long periods of
| politely choosing your words and facial expressions to pretend
| you're not bored/frustrated.
|
| The only thing that makes an "introvert" is when the genre of
| person they mesh with happens to be more numerically rare.
| There is a ton of variety in humans. It doesn't mean anything
| significant that your "group" is small.
| spzb wrote:
| That's a very long post to say "I don't understand
| extraversion/introversion"
| noduerme wrote:
| Like so many things, introversion can now be both medicalized as
| a disorder _and_ celebrated as a lifestyle choice. This allows
| some people to pick whichever is psychologically soothing to them
| at the moment and use it to justify a lack of effort, as if
| socializing were not a skill that many people actually have to
| work on.
| zb3 wrote:
| How about "shutting up and leaving people alone" as a skill
| that many people should have to work on? Let's distribute the
| effort.
| jmyeet wrote:
| Articles like this are (IMHO) ableist and come from an extremely
| neurotypical perspective. "Just practice social skills" to me is
| like teling depressed people "just go outside and touch grass".
|
| There's not a single mention of ADHD or autism in here. My own
| understanding of this has evolved over the years.
|
| The first stage is to understand introversion / extroversion as
| simply to not like / like socializing, people, large groups or
| whatever. This is a shallow and pretty inaccurate understanding,
| one many people such as myself chafe against. I consider myself
| an introvert but like certain social activities so these labels
| never seem to quite fit.
|
| The next stage is the "social battery" understanding of
| introversion / extroversion. That is, social activities will
| either drain or charge your "social battery".
|
| After this you start to ask questions like "why does X drain my
| social battery?" and "what does draining a social battery really
| mean?" and you start to realize you're still describing symptoms,
| not causes.
|
| The key insight is that something drains your social battery
| because you're _masking_ [1]. So-called extroverts don 't need to
| mask. So-called introverts do.
|
| Yes, you can get better at following social norms and develop
| coping strategies for large groups, socializing with strangers,
| etc but all you're really doing is getting better at masking.
| That can be useful because it can change how other people respond
| to you but it's a bit like telling a depressed person to "just
| smile".
|
| [1]: https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-
| guidance/topics/behavio...
| rors wrote:
| I feel like a lot of these debates boil down dealing with
| discomfort. We seem to be creating a society where everyone feels
| they have the right to not feeling stressed and uncomfortable.
| The danger to never feeling challenged is that you don't grow.
| You get stuck in a rut and everyone passes you by.
|
| Part of dealing with discomfort is learning what your limits are.
| No one should put themselves in a situation with you have a
| breakdown. I find that a small amount of stress in my life is
| good and results in growth. But a huge amount is overwhelming
| which leads to burnout.
| jrs235 wrote:
| I agree. While some people are uncomfortable in social settings
| and/or talking alot, especially "small talk", other people are
| uncomfortable sitting in silence. BOTH types of people need to
| work on be more comfortable being uncomfortable. However, it's
| seen as rude to tell overs to just "be quiet for a bit and
| enjoy the silence" vs "you're socially awkward because you
| refuse to talk to me"...
|
| My father in law seems unable to sit queitly in group settings.
| He performs too much small talk in my opinion. And it seems
| merely to fill the silence since they are often the same
| questions day in and day out. Either his memory is very bad, or
| he's not actually listening, just wanting to make noise. I've
| given up wasting my breath (re)answering the same questions. It
| seems he doesn't truly care about what others think, say, or
| feel... otherwise he might work on committing answers to
| memory. And even when folks start talking, he interrupts a
| lot... I truly hope it's not poor memory.
| niam wrote:
| I mostly don't see the point in these terms anymore. They were
| presumably created to categorize people but suck at it because
| nobody agrees where the boundaries of the category are, and the
| resolution on the term is so low for how many domains of
| personality it touches.
| blueflow wrote:
| This is a general problem with language.
| j_crick wrote:
| > They use introversion as an excuse to not grow.
|
| As if people who the author accuses of this sin have the same
| definition of, or feel the same about "growing" as the author...
| josefritzishere wrote:
| Perhaps it has been said but can we agree that it's ok to be
| introverted?
| bravetraveler wrote:
| Conversely, being too open/productive may also lead to burn out.
| The trap of participation
| nuancebydefault wrote:
| To introverts I would say: just now and then try to get out of
| your comfort zone. Most of the time, it will feel liberating and
| next time it becomes much easier.
|
| Step 1. Regularly talk to strangers. Most easily it can be done
| at public transport or at a shop. Start with places where you are
| waiting for a short time. Just ask a silly question or say
| something about the weather.
|
| Step 2 speak up in small groups. Just say something funny in
| between. Or ask a really curious question about what someone is
| saying.
|
| Step 3 take the lead in organizing a Teams call that anyways need
| scheduling. Be the MC or host. Just state what the meeting is
| about, what is to be accomplished and listen and note some things
| for in the summary.
|
| Step 4 do a talk in front of an audience. That will need some
| prep and some rehearsal, this one is quite difficult for myself
| as well.
|
| Everyting worth the effort, takes effort.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| All of your advice is for shy people, not introverts
|
| Being an introvert is not the same as being shy, and it is long
| past time that people stop conflating the two concepts
|
| You cannot "fix" being an introvert by practicing being social
| nothrabannosir wrote:
| could you humor me and exPlain why you think this? I'm
| neither shy nor introverted and I have only a casual
| understanding of either. If I take their comment literally, I
| guess the only part I would see being different is "it will
| feel liberating." But aside from that I do support the advice
| of people going out of their comfort zone, even if they hate
| it.
|
| I read GPs advice as "go to the social gym." For some people
| the gym ends up feeling good, others will hate it no matter
| what, but the advice is sound regardless.
|
| What do you think though?
| edgarvaldes wrote:
| I am an introvert. I can talk to strangers, but prefer not to.
| I speak in small groups of friends or collegues, I am the lead
| in lots of calls, I even do training to big audiences. When in
| the moment, I can do it without hesitation, but in the end its
| always draining.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Good advice but we need to change its scope: All of that works
| if your problem is shyness or being self conscious. And indeed
| there's a strong Venn diagram between shyness, quietness, self
| consciousness, awkwardness, and introvertness. But it's not the
| same.
|
| I'm inherently all of those things. After 20 years in
| consulting though, including dedicated training and experience,
| nobody believes me anymore - I've built strong social skills
| and come off cheerfully comfortable at work and random social
| situations. I've been formally mentoring people emotional
| intelligence and soft skills for at least 6-8 years.
|
| But they are _exhausting_ , even those that have become second
| nature / automatic. And that issue is not becoming lesser with
| age or skills or experience. And the more people in a group,
| the more exponentially exhausting every experience is :-/
| bdangubic wrote:
| what you do - even if ALL the love for it is there in you -
| sounds absolutely exhausting to me (especially after as many
| years as you have been doing it) and I am about as extrovert
| as it gets, much like you are described your sister in the
| other comment.
|
| is it plausible that your feels are not as closely related to
| you being introvert and just nature of the career itself?
| kstrauser wrote:
| I regularly say yes to work dinners and such that I don't
| personally want to attend. That sort of thing is far outside my
| comfort zone, and that's exactly why I do it.
|
| It's good exercise to pretend to be outgoing and chatty for an
| evening. Like any other skill, you get better at it with
| practice! And the author here is _so_ right: almost everyone else
| at these things besides the salespeople are probably also
| introverts. I can promise you that you won't be the only one
| there. I never am.
| jancsika wrote:
| > While the reality is, it takes effort to communicate and drains
| energy for everyone.
|
| This is a low effort take that depends on the ambiguity of
| language to sound true.
|
| "Drain" for the author apparently means literally using up a
| finite amount of human energy, concentration, and willpower.
| That's a truism.
|
| "Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a muscle
| tension clock that will eventually cause a headache to a
| straight-up panic attack that could take hours/days to recover
| from.
|
| It's probably even worse for young people who are introverts and
| haven't been taught how to say no or set boundaries. (I remember
| explaining to some college-age people that saying no is a skill,
| and they looked at me like I had just revealed to them that, with
| enough practice, humans can actually fly.)
| xvector wrote:
| > "Drain" for an introvert can mean anything from starting a
| muscle tension clock that will eventually cause a headache to a
| straight-up panic attack that could take hours/days to recover
| from.
|
| Unless you are being hyperbolic with your usage of the word
| "panic attack", having one during social events is not "being
| an introvert," it's a medical condition.
|
| I am an introvert and have also had unrelated panic attacks.
| Panic attacks effectively paralyze you, you feel a deep and
| uncontrollable sense of doom, often accompanied by
| palpitations. Sometimes you feel like you can't breathe.
|
| If caused by social interaction, that's not a normal thing to
| experience, even for introverts. That is in the territory of
| actual medical issues: panic disorder, social anxiety disorder,
| etc.
| sabellito wrote:
| Absolutely bizarre that you're being downvoted. Having panic
| attacks is not a normal reaction to any normal human
| situation, gp absolutely should look for medical and
| psychological help.
| xvector wrote:
| > Ram learns about Shyam's promotion and feels a bit
| disappointed. He goes back home and says to himself "I am not an
| extrovert", consoles himself and moves on with life.
|
| I have seen this play out time and time again at nearly every
| company I've worked at and even every team I've TL'd.
|
| I used to be a "proud introvert" myself. The "proud introverts"
| often feel wronged in these situations, struggling to understand
| that communication is just as valid and critical of a skill as
| writing code.
|
| Accepting that I didn't need to make "being an introvert" my
| identity, and learning how to communicate, _skyrocketed_ my
| career.
| cvoss wrote:
| > "Hey man, what's up? Why don't you approach and talk to a few
| here? They are friendly, you know. You like Open Source, so maybe
| talk to that guy (pointing to a senior of mine) and ask him how
| he got started."
|
| This is completely wrong-headed on the part of the host of this
| gathering. The correct move is "Hey, man, it looks like you don't
| have a lot of connections in this room. Let me introduce you to a
| friend of mine... [Friend], this is Aditya. [Say something
| interesting about Aditya to justify Friend's attention.] You two
| have [X] in common. Aditya, I have known Friend for [Y] years.
| Ask him about [Z]. etc." The host mediates the introduction for a
| respectful amount of time, and then walks away.
|
| That is the function and, truthfully, the responsibility, of a
| host at a gathering where not everybody knows everybody.
|
| Whereas, some people would find it impertinent for a stranger to
| barge in on a conversation and introduce themselves as if they
| were important enough to deserve attention. Maybe they are, but
| they may be supposed to let somebody else do that for them. And
| likewise, many people feel slimy going around putting on an air
| of self-importance. It is hardly fair to characterize this kind
| of sensibility as "pride" or a feeling of "disgust" toward other
| guests.
|
| Read some Jane Austen for more.
| BeetleB wrote:
| Fully agree. I read that intro section and closed the page. I
| didn't want advice from someone who could be so poor at this,
| _and not even realize it_. Instead of introspecting about his
| own contribution to the problematic interaction, he went ahead
| and made it the other guy 's fault.
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