[HN Gopher] Siyuan: Privacy-first, self-hosted personal knowledg...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Siyuan: Privacy-first, self-hosted personal knowledge management
       software
        
       Author : thunderbong
       Score  : 237 points
       Date   : 2024-12-26 02:26 UTC (20 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | gwelson wrote:
       | This looks nice but nearly identical to Obsidian. How does it
       | differ from Obsidian's features?
        
         | alwayslikethis wrote:
         | It seems to be open source, which is a big plus compared to
         | obsidian
        
           | kelsolaar wrote:
           | Why is it a big plus, genuine question? You do not need
           | Obsidian to use your Markdown written content and are not
           | vendor locked in as such.
        
             | adhamsalama wrote:
             | The same reason it is a plus for any other open source
             | software. You can modify it and fork it if it's
             | discontinued.
        
             | jraph wrote:
             | Open source / Free software comes with all the usual
             | benefits:
             | 
             | - you can fork and adapt to your needs
             | 
             | - should the original authors stop developing it or take a
             | direction you don't like but your started depending on it,
             | someone can take over the development of a fork
             | 
             | - you can study how it works
             | 
             | - you can reuse some of the code to build an alternative
             | product
             | 
             | - you can contribute patches if the project accepts them
             | 
             | - if you have to migrate, even if the format is specific,
             | you can at least check how it works
             | 
             | That thing being open source is a big plus, and Obsidian
             | using a standard format is a big plus.
        
             | colordrops wrote:
             | That's like saying "you do not need oracle to use your
             | bytes on disk". I may be mistaken but doesn't obsidian
             | provide a ton of functionality on top of markdown?
        
               | veidr wrote:
               | No, just a little bit. Your docs remain 98% compatible
               | with other Markdown editors. The functionality is mainly
               | around a.) better UI for editing Markdown, b.) plugin
               | ecosystem (optional), c.) paid sync (optional, and
               | achievable otherwise e.g. SyncThing, your own rsync
               | script, etc), and d.) optional (and very bad) "publish-
               | as-a-website" feature.
        
               | Tomte wrote:
               | If you only use standard Markdown. But the advocacy often
               | focuses on DataView and a thousand other features that
               | are simply not available without Obsidian.
        
               | veidr wrote:
               | True, but it seems very obvious that if you add a bunch
               | of plugin dependencies (or even one), you are
               | deliberately choosing to forego "standard" Markdown
               | (there's actually no such thing, but roughly speaking).
               | 
               | That's why they're plugins.
               | 
               | I do use the Excalidraw plugin, but nothing much else,
               | and that is why I have an easy time making my Obsidian
               | notes web-accessible (currently, via SilverBullet, but
               | any tool that makes markdown web-editable will work -- as
               | long as you don't go nuts with plugins, that is).
               | 
               | Having said that, I think the reason Obsidian "failed" --
               | to the extent that Notion and some others have massively
               | more adoption amongst organizations larger than me and my
               | gray beard - is that they failed to _combine_ their
               | (super awesome) files-and-folders approach with a web
               | _editable_ solution.
               | 
               | They thought - obviously wrongly, in hindsight -- that
               | _web accessible_ would be enough.
               | 
               | It's not. It's the 10%, Notion etc cover the 90% (but
               | with fairly bad tradeoffs, they have export and it works,
               | but you can't easily interop with your data where it
               | lives).
               | 
               | But I've had such an easy time making my Obsidian web-
               | editable that I suspect in a few minutes (or months)
               | Obsidian will be like _heyyyyy... edit yo vault via web
               | yo -- and for free!_ and then we will all be like _woo
               | Obsidian boo Notion_!!
               | 
               | But we'll see
        
               | SamPatt wrote:
               | The plugins are no small thing though. I replaced Anki
               | with a spaced repetition plugin, now my notes can be
               | flashcards and I don't need to maintain two separate
               | apps.
               | 
               | Also the UI for search and navigation is much better than
               | just a collection of Markdown files. I rolled my own note
               | system using Markdown before this. Obsidian is way
               | better.
        
               | colordrops wrote:
               | So not much of a value proposition then is what you are
               | saying? Why use it at all?
        
           | brunoqc wrote:
           | Not fully open source. It seems you need to pay to get the
           | privilege to "Export PDF/Image with watermark".
           | 
           | https://b3log.org/siyuan/en/pricing.html
        
             | elashri wrote:
             | It doesn't have to be free everything to qualify for open
             | source. The source and licence are available. You can
             | actually bypass payment if you want to do that as the
             | source ia there.
        
               | brunoqc wrote:
               | Right but it's a bit unusual. I was expecting the "pro"
               | features to be in a separate repo or something.
               | 
               | I don't think I would even bother to update a local patch
               | on every releases. I'll just use another foss app without
               | silly "pro" features.
        
             | oefrha wrote:
             | The code is indeed entirely AGPL, I looked at license
             | headers in the specific files implementing paid features. I
             | wonder if it's an oversight. See my other comment
             | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42514304 for details.
        
         | skaragianis wrote:
         | The file format isn't markdown, instead a proprietary format in
         | JSON
        
           | adhamsalama wrote:
           | Is it not open source?
        
             | skaragianis wrote:
             | It locks your efforts to the vendor/project which is
             | different to Obsidian
        
               | adhamsalama wrote:
               | It is still open source, not proprietary, and you can
               | export files to Markdown anyway.
        
           | Pooge wrote:
           | I'm not an Obsidian user, but I agree with their "file over
           | app" philosophy.[1]
           | 
           | If SiYuan stops being developed, are the files still
           | readable/parse-able?
           | 
           | [1]: https://stephango.com/file-over-app
        
             | pg999w wrote:
             | Yes, if SiYuan stops being developed, you can still get
             | your notes exported as markdown files. Since SiYuan is
             | open-source, you can also use the internal code to parse
             | the JSON format notes.
        
             | adhamsalama wrote:
             | It's open source, so yes, and you can export files to
             | Markdown anyway.
        
             | princevegeta89 wrote:
             | Yes, your existing installations on your devices, whatever
             | they are, can read your data as long as you use the correct
             | Repo keys that are used to encrypt stuff. In the worst
             | case, you can deploy the docker instance with older images
             | to keep going on.
        
         | adhamsalama wrote:
         | Isn't Obsidian limited to markdown files? This uses a different
         | format so it can add more features like databases.
        
           | rlupi wrote:
           | No, Obsidian is quite more powerful.
           | 
           | Obsidian has built-in support for markdown, images, PDFs,
           | canvas (via JSON Canvas which they developed and open sourced
           | https://obsidian.md/canvas), and others.
           | 
           | For databases, you can add fields/properties both in the
           | markdown frontmatter or in the text and query it via very
           | popular plugins:
           | 
           | https://github.com/blacksmithgu/obsidian-dataview
           | 
           | There are tons of community plugins that support all kind of
           | stuff: tasks, kanban, LLM/Copilot, graph analysis of links,
           | charts.
           | 
           | It can also be extended in JS, both writing your own plugins
           | or via a few plugins that allow limited JS support.
           | 
           | ---
           | 
           | Obsidian is actually quite good as a NoCode prototyping
           | platform for personal apps :-)
           | 
           | E.g. CRUD:
           | 
           | - Use templates, via Templater: to define the content of your
           | data
           | 
           | - Use links and tags to define relations and connections
           | 
           | - Use dataview or graphs for views
           | 
           | - There are even plugins to define buttons and the actions
           | they perform, if you need commands
        
         | tcper wrote:
         | Obsidian sync feature is paid service, this project you can
         | setup your own service
        
           | hxii wrote:
           | There are free alternatives, e.g
           | https://github.com/vrtmrz/obsidian-livesync
        
           | shim__ wrote:
           | You can just sync Obsidian with nextcloud, Dropbox or
           | whatever
        
           | number6 wrote:
           | Also you need a license for anything work related. Since I
           | code in my work time and my free time I can't separate this
           | clearly. To be compliant I would need a license
        
           | SamPatt wrote:
           | I use Syncthing with Obsidian. Free and open source.
        
           | echelon wrote:
           | Obsidian has a free git plugin.
        
         | TnS-hun wrote:
         | Its editor is fully WYSIWYG, so it does not switch to raw
         | Markdown when you want to modify something.
        
       | cyberax wrote:
       | Notion.so, but free. Nice!
        
         | k_bx wrote:
         | I can't find how their multi-user collaboration looks like. Do
         | they even have one?
        
           | Ey7NFZ3P0nzAe wrote:
           | Apparently it's on their roadmap:
           | https://github.com/orgs/siyuan-note/projects/1/views/1
        
       | adhamsalama wrote:
       | I absolutely love this program and recommended it multiple times
       | on HN.
        
       | eddywebs wrote:
       | Not bad ! Is there way to migrate existing evernote
       | notebooks/notes to this ?
        
       | la_fayette wrote:
       | I am using markdown files in a private GitHub repo for personal
       | knowledge management. For me this works just fine... Is there any
       | feature you think I might miss from tools like these?
        
         | adhamsalama wrote:
         | Graph view, backlinks and databases.
        
           | mxuribe wrote:
           | I see the value in backlinks (I assume you mean backlinks
           | between said markdown files, right?), and graphview might
           | come in handy once in a while...but am not seeing the value
           | brought by databases here? Unless the db becomes part of a
           | top/management layer for said files, which adds other things
           | like maybe possibly faster search or easier query of content
           | (that is, easier than find/grep, etc.)? Not knocking if DBs
           | can be used, with all apologies, am genuinely curious how DBs
           | could help here? (Context is that if this person is using
           | simple markdown files in folders/repos, then they probably
           | don't need/want more than that and typical file management
           | tools)
        
             | rmnclmnt wrote:
             | When people mean DBs in these note taking tools, they are
             | usually referring to the Notion like databases: a
             | lightweight Airtable-like table allowing a few data
             | manipulations and analysis. Basically a CSV file with a
             | nice UI on top if you will
        
               | mxuribe wrote:
               | Ah-ah, Ok, i can see that something like that could help.
               | Thanks for the clarification!
        
         | pglevy wrote:
         | This is what I do with my Obsidian repo. Feels like best of
         | both worlds to me. I have my files in open format in my repo.
         | And I use Obsidian primarily for the editing experience. If I
         | want to quickly capture a thought on my phone, I use the GitHub
         | app to create an issue in that repo and process it later.
        
       | praptak wrote:
       | It seems AGPL but also has a paid tier which makes me wonder what
       | their business model is.
       | 
       | Is it only the hassle of self hosting that stops potential
       | customers from having the paid features for free?
        
         | SuperShibe wrote:
         | Welp it appears from what I could find on their website that
         | the Pro tier is needed to use all features even for selfhosted
         | instances.
         | 
         | Am I missing something here or couldn't people just fork this
         | and pull off a vaultwarden?
        
         | phforms wrote:
         | I believe convenience and actually wanting to give something
         | back to the creators would have many people pay for pro
         | features, since it's actually "Pay once, use for life", which
         | is a rare and welcome sight in this subscription-flooded world.
         | And it still leaves people with low income the option to
         | (legally?) circumvent payment. Not sure how sustainable this is
         | as a business model, but I think it's pretty nice compared to
         | being forced into continuous payment.
        
       | mano78 wrote:
       | I've been self-hosting it for three months now, and I am happy. I
       | came from Joplin; I lost the offline access, but it's much more
       | "expressive" and nice, so to speak. I don't miss any other
       | feature, even in the pro version. Doesn't depend on other docker
       | containers, I just used authelia for auth, and while it uses its
       | own file format I backup the data volume and it's possible to
       | export manually in simple markdown. The web UI is responsive for
       | mobile use and yes, I am happy. Fits my case better than the
       | others.
        
         | princevegeta89 wrote:
         | Same here. I am self-hosting it on the web on my VPS instance
         | so I can access it from any device and anywhere in the world.
         | And then, I use a self-hosted S3 instance to sync all my
         | installations on devices, including OSX and Android/iPhone.
         | Sync has worked wonderfully well.
         | 
         | I felt with the number of features it has, this program simply
         | knocks out Obsidian in comparison. I would say it is more of a
         | Notion equivalent. I am currently working on a small self-
         | hosted companion for Siyuan that lets users share notes
         | publicly.
        
       | r3verse wrote:
       | I tried to give it a shot a few months back, but the lack of vim
       | bindings were a blocker for me, and seems like it isn't planned
       | yet. Hope to try it sometime in the future.
        
       | coldblues wrote:
       | I keep seeing these note-taking tools pop up again and again. I
       | am heavily invested into Logseq already and the new database
       | version is coming out soon. Unless these tools provide import and
       | export utilities to convert your notes between the most popular
       | applications like Logseq and Obsidian, only new users will use
       | them and people with very few notes who can put in the time to
       | move.
        
         | janwillemb wrote:
         | Creating a note taking, personal productivity app is an
         | elaborate but common procrastination technique for developers.
        
           | K0balt wrote:
           | I feel exposed lol
        
           | sbt567 wrote:
           | After forcing myself to learn and adapt to some note-taking
           | system, I too didn't find it useful for me _yet_. But i keep
           | pushing myself through because I still believe that there
           | must be some value that I could take from taking notes. Just
           | I didn 't find a system that suits me well...? One thing that
           | i find the real benefit/value from all this learn and adapt
           | is "writing as a way to think" (is it by feynmann?). When
           | doing complicated work, writing really help to ease your
           | cognitive load and help you find the gaps in your line of
           | thought. But, I couldn't find a suitable method when dealing
           | with general/every day note-taking. I still have that
           | "graveyard for thought" problem when writing general notes
        
           | randomcatuser wrote:
           | right up there with creating your own personal website
        
         | 3eb7988a1663 wrote:
         | What is the benefit of the database version? I like that the
         | backend is in text files. I guess there could be some
         | performance/compression benefits to be had, but given the
         | amount of writing a mortal is likely to do over a lifetime, I
         | am not immediately sold on the idea.
        
       | ahmedfromtunis wrote:
       | What I miss from this type of apps, including notion, is the
       | ability to "inherit" properties from databases.
       | 
       | I would like, for example, to create a superdb with basic task
       | properties (title, deadline) and then create subdatabases that
       | add more project-specific properties.
       | 
       | This, I'll be able to create a single view with all my tasks for
       | the day in a single place, but also add all the info I need for
       | individual tasks.
       | 
       | Unfortunately, for some reason, nobody (that I know of) built
       | something like this into their apps.
        
         | Dyac wrote:
         | I think Tana can do this with the "supertags" feature.
         | 
         | https://tana.inc/docs/supertags
        
         | neodymiumphish wrote:
         | Tana has had this for a long time with super tags, and Logseq
         | has it (at least in the test builds of their DB version; I
         | can't speak to the traditional MD-based version) in their sub-
         | tagging functionality.
         | 
         | I agree that it would be great across the board, though!
        
         | int0x29 wrote:
         | Trilium has attribute inheritance and is scriptable. The
         | default task implementation uses templates though, not
         | inheritance. So you would need to script it.
        
       | sourraspberry wrote:
       | I've been using this for a couple of years on my home-server.
       | 
       | It's an Obsidian knock-off. It's pretty janky and the
       | documentation is lacking. It's open-source which is nice... But
       | the company behind it is ??? I don't know. They are Chinese but I
       | couldn't find much about them.
       | 
       | I use it because I can self-host it, it has most of the features
       | Obsidian has, and I can use it in a web-browser from anywhere -
       | which is the biggest feature for me that Obsidian lacks.
        
         | rukshn wrote:
         | I also installed it on my computer to give it a try, but then
         | as you mentioned I could not find who are behind it other than
         | it's based in China. So decided to just keep with Obsidian
        
           | oefrha wrote:
           | Took me like a minute to find out who are behind it.
           | Committers on GitHub project point to two profiles:
           | 
           | - https://github.com/88250
           | 
           | - https://github.com/Vanessa219
           | 
           | The first profile has a README (zh-CN, easily translated)
           | introducing themselves as a married couple as well as their
           | career trajectory leading to their current company. Googling
           | the company name leads me to
           | https://www.tianyancha.com/company/3153162387 showing the
           | company's legal structure, the legal names of the couple,
           | their address, etc. (again, zh-CN but easily translated).
           | Looks like I can view their financial reports too if I have a
           | subscription.
           | 
           | The profiles also link to their social media accounts (on
           | their own dev-focused community).
           | 
           | What more is there to know? At least it's more than the
           | average ShowHN asking for your email and sometimes credit
           | card. I don't understand these "couldn't find much about
           | them" claims.
        
             | bflesch wrote:
             | The link you posted gives me "According to relevant legal
             | regulations, access is temporarily not supported in your
             | current location." and "If your device or the Wi-Fi
             | environment you are in is using a VPN service, please
             | disable it and try again."
             | 
             | I'm not using any VPN. Normal internet from Germany
        
               | TheGeminon wrote:
               | It is also unavailable from Canada.
        
               | wumeow wrote:
               | Same in the US.
        
               | Sabinus wrote:
               | And Australia.
        
               | pessimizer wrote:
               | I vaguely recall this being part of a tit-for-tat thing
               | between China and the anti-Chinese. There have been
               | movements to restrict Chinese access to FOSS, because
               | forking FOSS lowers Chinese dependence on the West, along
               | with (ironic) accusations that the "authoritarian"
               | Chinese are limiting access to Western tech products. I
               | thought there was some sort of legislative or judicial
               | outcome that came out of it, but no luck with a quick
               | google.
               | 
               | -----
               | 
               |  _U.S. restriction on Chinese use of open-source
               | microchip tech would be hard to enforce_ - October 13,
               | 2023
               | 
               | > U.S. lawmakers are pressuring the administration of
               | President Joseph Biden to place restrictions on RISC-V to
               | prevent China from benefiting from the technology as it
               | attempts to develop its semiconductor industry.
               | 
               | https://thechinaproject.com/2023/10/13/u-s-bar-on-
               | chinese-us...
               | 
               | -----
               | 
               |  _China's Use of Foreign Open-Source Software, and How to
               | Counter It_ - April 2, 2024
               | 
               | > Democratic governments also need to reassess which
               | products should not be made open-source because they're
               | at risk of being weaponized by malign actors.
               | 
               | https://chinaobservers.eu/chinas-use-of-foreign-open-
               | source-...
               | 
               | -----
               | 
               | Whatever the US did, Europe would do. Anybody in the US
               | or Europe working on a FOSS project with Chinese
               | contributors that they're friendly with? Has anything
               | happened recently?
        
           | hajimuz wrote:
           | They open sourced it and you can self hosted. I mean, does it
           | even matter where they are from? Why it's automatically
           | suspicious when you know the authors are Chinese.
        
             | rukshn wrote:
             | True the origin does not matter, but it would be better to
             | have more transparency about the contributors even if it's
             | an open source tool. Because you can still get injected
             | with a malicious code when an update is pushed.
             | 
             | But I agree we should not categorize according to
             | geolocation, but more transparency would be better
             | irrespective of the location in any project.
        
               | number6 wrote:
               | It's this D and Vanessa - I think this might be
               | Nicknames. But I don't see how they should be more
               | transparent.
               | 
               | They also have a forum and they answer quite quickly
        
         | dammaj wrote:
         | I assume you want to self host in order to sync locally, right?
         | If that's the case, you can use Obsidian with git plugin and
         | you get sync + versioning (all what git offers).
        
           | number6 wrote:
           | Sync is premium since some versions. Before it was free, you
           | had only to provide a S3 bucket or a webdav location
        
           | Terretta wrote:
           | Which git plugin do you like? And have you used the plugin
           | from more than one machine to a repo more than one machine
           | also syncs with?
        
         | asdf147 wrote:
         | Why are you not using Obsidian itself? Anything wrong with it?
        
         | jazzyjackson wrote:
         | Logseq is floss(gnu license, closurescript) and almost perfect
         | for me but it's totally mysterious to me what's stopping it
         | from serving a web interface that serves files on the web
         | server. It's an electron app with an HTTP API but for some
         | reason the web demo only opens files clientside with filesystem
         | API
         | 
         | Anyway, one of these days I'll fork it and make it work for me.
         | I also have a perverted desire to change the serialization
         | format from markdown to XML so I can manipulate the graph with
         | other tools that talk xpath, xquery, basex.
        
         | phforms wrote:
         | It seems like they borrowed heavily from Notion, Obsidian and
         | RemNote, as far as I can tell (wouldn't call it a knock-off
         | though, since there are sooo many apps in this space that you
         | don't really know who came up with what anymore). But the app
         | doesn't feel janky to me at first glance, it definitely feels
         | more responsive than Notion and less "slippy" than RemNote.
         | Although it is quite noisy with all the tooltips popping up
         | immediately.
         | 
         | My first impression is that they really wanted to include
         | everything (even RemNote-like spaced-repetition flashcards,
         | Notion-like Databases and of course there has to be AI too) and
         | it seems like they did a pretty decent job at that. I also
         | appreciate that there are so many export options, even for Org-
         | Mode (preserving internal links, images, code-blocks, etc.).
         | 
         | I like that it provides a solid, feature-rich alternative to
         | all the cloud-first, closed-source apps in this space. But it
         | may be too distracting/overwhelming for my use-cases with all
         | the advanced layout capabilities and features though. Tana is a
         | similar all-in-one solution that is really well done (and more
         | innovative than this one), but I always seem to gravitate
         | toward more focussed apps.
        
       | oefrha wrote:
       | The licensing is kind of strange. Self-hosted syncing is
       | supposedly a paid feature, and there are indeed license checks in
       | the code, but unlike your typical open core product with a
       | separately licensed ee/ directory, this one including license
       | checking code is entirely under AGPL, and FAQ specifically
       | stresses "SiYuan is completely open source". As such one can
       | patch out the license check (literally a one line change if I'm
       | not mistaken, I only scanned the code) and still completely
       | license-compliant, and one can even distribute binaries of the
       | patched out version, though that would be a major jerk move. So,
       | is that intended? Only selling convenience of prebuilt images?
        
         | jraph wrote:
         | My company does exactly this intentionally for everything we
         | sell at our extension store. Everything under LGPL, license
         | checks that you could bypass with not much effort.
         | 
         | It allows selling actually free software and can work well if
         | you do this well.
        
           | oefrha wrote:
           | Yeah I know this is a fairly well-trodden model recommended
           | by FSF (okay, maybe I shouldn't have called it kinda
           | strange). I'm not confident it works out in most cases,
           | though. So I'm wondering if it's intentional in this case.
        
             | jraph wrote:
             | > I know this is a fairly well-trodden model
             | 
             | Actually, if you have other examples of this happening in
             | the wild, I'd be quite interested.
             | 
             | The other widespread example I have in mind (which seems to
             | work well) is WordPress extensions with premium features,
             | but I've not encountered this too often neither.
             | 
             | Edit: thanks all for your examples :-)
        
               | aldonius wrote:
               | The Ardour DAW is kinda like this. Downloads of prebuilt
               | images through the website are paid, but you can download
               | and build yourself from source. (Most Linux users
               | probably have free access via distro package manager
               | anyway.)
        
               | rmnclmnt wrote:
               | If I remember correctly, other examples of OSS code with
               | premium addons and license check, on the top of my head:
               | Bitwarden, Metabase, EmailEngine
        
               | elashri wrote:
               | I want to add a niche example. The famous Thunderbird
               | addon owl for exchange
               | (https://addons.thunderbird.net/en-
               | US/thunderbird/addon/owl-f...) where you can open the
               | source of the addon and change the licence checks to
               | always return true.
        
               | jraph wrote:
               | I believe making paid open source code to handle
               | interoperability with something inherently closed / paid
               | (if not outright expensive) is a good approach. Would be
               | users are already used to pay for a related provider
               | anyway, and it's not like the features are so useful
               | without the functionalities of the other provider.
        
         | brunoqc wrote:
         | > though that would be a major jerk move
         | 
         | Would it? If they don't want people to do it they could just
         | use a proprietary license.
        
       | ghgr wrote:
       | I can also recommend Trilium Notes [1], which I have been happily
       | using for years. It's currently in "maintenance mode", which I
       | personally see as a feature (no risk of bloatware).
       | 
       | Self-hosted, great webapp, optional native clients and works
       | offline.
       | 
       | https://github.com/zadam/trilium
        
         | McSido wrote:
         | As another fan of Trilium Notes for years, I just want to add
         | that there is now also an active community fork continuing the
         | work on the tool.
         | 
         | https://github.com/TriliumNext/Notes
        
       | sunshine-o wrote:
       | Looks cool, but as I have been on this knowledge management /
       | productivity journey like everybody. Here are my findings:
       | 
       | If you are reasonably comfortable with computers / Unix.
       | 
       | - You need to first rely on a directory structures, filenames,
       | plaintext, lists and maybe markdown. Stick with a "File over
       | app", Unix approach.
       | 
       | - Try to sort things with universal concepts: locations, things,
       | people, events, metrics, howtos. A bit like the 5Ws approach.
       | 
       | - Leverage good Unix tools: unix commands, make/justfiles,
       | (rip)grep, git, fzf, etc.
       | 
       | - Do not try to solve the problem through the Web. Because you
       | will end up trying to solve web problems instead of basic
       | knowledge management and productivity issues.
       | 
       | - The smartphone/touchscreen is a major problem, but as with the
       | Web do not try to solve it. Use your file manager or even fzf in
       | termux can be adapted to be reasonably usable on a touchscreen.
       | 
       | Something I have been wondering about is the "backlink" feature.
       | It would be cool to link items/notes together through references.
       | What I would be looking for is a Unix tools that can scan my text
       | files for references to other files in the hierarchy.
        
         | echelon wrote:
         | Obsidian lets you live on top of the filesystem structure using
         | markdown files, and it gives you links, tags, topic clouds, and
         | more.
         | 
         | If you use it with reasonable conventions, you can compile and
         | deploy a web version with ghost or zola or something
         | automatically run in CI.
         | 
         | It's backed up, synced, and comes with desktop and mobile apps.
         | It has vim key bindings and git plugins.
         | 
         | It's a pretty sweet system that works nicely with Unix, and it
         | adapts to multiple navigational and organizational paradigms.
         | 
         | I've tried a lot of things, and nothing has ever come close to
         | Obsidian.
        
         | skeeter2020 wrote:
         | I've been experimenting with Flatnotes
         | (https://github.com/Dullage/flatnotes) for a while and really
         | like the design. No notebooks or even folders, just a single
         | directory with markdown files and decent search & tagging. It
         | feels a lot like what happened to email when we gave up all the
         | up-front structuring with deep hierarchies and just said index
         | it and we'll find it when we need to.
         | 
         | The project is just "good enough" for what I need, and aside
         | from tiny bugs whenever I find a gap I can either work around
         | it or live without. Constraints are a powerful motivator for
         | both creativity and getting stuff done.
        
           | zelphirkalt wrote:
           | Tagging is a strictly more powerful tool than hierarchies, at
           | least with same amount tags vs directories/categories,
           | because an item can be tagged using multiple different tags,
           | but can only be in one directory, unless you create
           | duplicates or symlinks or whatever.
        
             | cal85 wrote:
             | I find the opposite. Being forced to consider hierarchical
             | categorisation leads to a more powerful system in practice.
             | It helps me create a mental reference to the item being
             | stored. And it often causes me to see a better way to form
             | an item in the first place -- eg maybe this note is really
             | two notes, maybe this idea can actually just be discarded,
             | etc. Or, on rare occasions, a new item doesn't fit anywhere
             | (but is important) so I need to tweak the hierarchy itself
             | -- and that's a good thing, once in a while, as it can lead
             | to creative insights about the domain as a whole.
             | 
             | I've found tagging systems usually become a kind of dark
             | swamp where things go never to be seen again. The lack of
             | structure means I have little memory of what's gone into
             | the system, so I end up with too much duplication of ideas
             | and inconsistency of style (mess). All this makes it
             | uninviting and difficult to 'explore', so I don't use it
             | much except as a dumping ground, and the swampiness
             | compounds over time.
        
               | kortilla wrote:
               | Hierarchy doesn't make sense if you care about multiple
               | dimensions, which I often do with notes.
               | 
               | Sometimes I want to look at all notes relating to c++,
               | sometimes everything related to a personal project.
               | Directories don't support that without symlinking
               | everything that mentions c++ into a folder for that.
        
             | sunshine-o wrote:
             | I really like tagging but somehow the concept could never
             | become central to any filesystem:
             | 
             | - I believe BeOS tried,
             | 
             | - MS tried with WinFS but cancelled it in Windows Vista,
             | 
             | - I am sure some cloud storage service bet on it but can't
             | cite any.
             | 
             | Actually tagging is probably mainly successful in cases
             | where we can reliably automate the tagging such as email or
             | photos.
        
         | WillAdams wrote:
         | For a long while I was trying to keep text notes in a
         | structured set of directories, Tombo.exe made that a lot
         | easier/nicer to use:
         | 
         | https://openhub.net/p/p_7697
         | 
         | sadly, it looks to have dropped off the 'net.
        
         | ruthmarx wrote:
         | I just use TexStudio. I don't use proper tex files, but it
         | never complains unless I were to try and compile. But their
         | navigation tree and tabbed interface for multiple files makes
         | organizing things really nice.
         | 
         | I can have multiple instances at once, and it's all managed via
         | files and my filesystem.
         | 
         | Eventually I want to build a web frontend to index and
         | reference my data, but for now the above approach is working
         | well.
         | 
         | Unlike Obsidian, TexStudio is open-source, which I consider a
         | plus.
        
         | heavensteeth wrote:
         | I'll leave my imcomplete mind dump below for posterity but I'll
         | make it known that while writing it, I did realise that what
         | I've invented is a text editor.
         | 
         | ----------------------------------
         | 
         | I had an idea for a deeply unix-y note taking software a while
         | ago and I've continued to think it would actually work very
         | well.
         | 
         | Notes could either be an sqlite database (nets you compression,
         | performance, easy backups, etc.) or just text files on the
         | filesystem (easy searching, less lock-in, whatever). The
         | "editor" just creates a new temporary file and opens it in
         | `$EDITOR`. You can optionally name it after, otherwise it's
         | named the current date.
         | 
         | Want linking? Use a filesystem-aware editor. Want syntax
         | highlighting? Use an editor with syntax highlighting. Want to
         | sync your notes? Combine it with Syncthing. Want to search your
         | notes? fzf.
        
           | packetlost wrote:
           | I do this except with git, fzf, and a simple CLI tool:
           | 
           | https://codeberg.org/ngp/tsk
           | 
           | Contributions welcome :)
        
         | exe34 wrote:
         | org-roam gives you backlinks. directory of text files.
        
         | skydhash wrote:
         | After using Bear.app and Things.app for a while, I've moved
         | firmly in the file over app camp. Apps can be enjoyable to use
         | until you don't have access to the app anymore (platform,
         | longevity,...). Now I'm using Emacs with org files, but could
         | just as well use any tools that favors files. Any novel use
         | case I want, I can script it out in a moment, while still
         | enjoying the benefits of viewing my information on most
         | platforms.
         | 
         | > _Something I have been wondering about is the "backlink"
         | feature. It would be cool to link items/notes together through
         | references. What I would be looking for is a Unix tools that
         | can scan my text files for references to other files in the
         | hierarchy_
         | 
         | The only thing you need is some kind of structure, like the
         | wiki link format or org link format, and you could 'rgrep' the
         | notes directory for a particular link (vim and emacs can put
         | the result in a buffer).
        
         | packetlost wrote:
         | This is _exactly_ the conclusion I came to. I still use
         | Obsidian for a lot of things, but I 've developed my own task
         | management software that uses plain text files and fzf for
         | everything: https://codeberg.org/ngp/tsk
         | 
         | It has worked great for me! That being said, sync and mobile
         | usage is still a bit of a sore spot with it. It works
         | beautifully with Termux, but I wish there was some way to slap
         | a basic UI on top of a CLI application for mobile. Tk/Tcl is
         | the closest but there's only options on Android (I'm mostly an
         | iOS user) and even then it's not really ideal. For sync, I at
         | least have a reasonable plan: IMAP4 or git-based sync. The
         | roadmap and tasks for the project are tracked in-repo with
         | itself, so it definitely works.
        
           | withinboredom wrote:
           | If you want some windows-forms-esq app development, I highly
           | recommend checking out Flutter Flow. It isn't exactly cheap,
           | but I've used it for some basic personal apps.
        
             | packetlost wrote:
             | I kinda doubt FlutterFlow would meet my needs, it looks
             | like it's primarily build on web technologies which is a
             | nonstarter for this.
        
               | vopi wrote:
               | As far as I know, it's the opposite (using Skia to
               | render). Flutter for the web is a second-class citizen,
               | whereas for mobile apps, it's quite productive.
        
               | withinboredom wrote:
               | FlutterFlow is just the UI to build Flutter apps, which
               | yes, is built on web-tech. However, Flutter runs natively
               | on mobile devices.
        
         | ankitrgadiya wrote:
         | I have gone through the whole journey similar to you as well.
         | It is so frustrating to keep searching for that perfect app
         | only to find that every other app lacks something or the other.
         | For the last year or so, I've settled on just plain markdown
         | and the directory structure for hierarchy just like you.
         | 
         | I use my preferred editor (Emacs) to modify the files. I get to
         | use all the functionality like key-bindings, search, version
         | control. I push my notes to my self-hosted Forgejo instance
         | (but it can be Github). Forgejo already has a web-interface the
         | notes and links just work there.
         | 
         | On my laptop, I have mdbook configured to watch the directory
         | and build the notes into static website. So if I just want to
         | go through by notes or read something I can use that as well.
         | 
         | I tried finding solutions to take notes on my phone. But I
         | realised that if its longer than a few lines than I prefer
         | using my laptop anyways. I only ever read my notes on the
         | phone. I've setup the same mdbook behind VPN so I can access it
         | on my phone as well. If I ever want to modify notes on-the-go
         | then I can use the Forgejo web interface as well.
        
       | Beijinger wrote:
       | I use folders for my data. a-z. This is the basic directory
       | structure. b->books->management for example.
       | 
       | Does not solve the fundamental problem of a file system that you
       | also could file this under m->management->books
       | 
       | I use recoll to index and find things. https://www.recoll.org/
       | And yes, I have a 20 TB HDD. Quite a bit of data and media. If
       | someone knows how to make an encrypte mirror of my drive with
       | https://www.opendrive.com/ I would be interested. No incremental
       | backups, if possible I would like to access it like a drive.
       | 
       | For my notes I just use light speed fast nvpy with simplenote.com
       | to synchronized with several computes.
       | https://github.com/cpbotha/nvpy
       | 
       | My notes don't follow the a-z approach but have regular
       | headlines. I use nvpy as a mixture between a to do list and a
       | knowledge database. For to do I have recently thought of using
       | paper cards for kanban, but I am not sure. Suggestions welcome.
        
         | ninalanyon wrote:
         | > Does not solve the fundamental problem of a file system that
         | you also could file this under m->management->books
         | 
         | You can use symbolic links to connect directories and file to
         | multiple parents.
        
           | Beijinger wrote:
           | I know. But this is asking and would get messy very fast. And
           | what if an item has 10 attributes?
           | 
           | John Doe has Birthday on December 12th would have at least 5
           | already.
        
       | dmje wrote:
       | Obsidian. That is all.
        
       | sigmonsays wrote:
       | I can second the recommendations i've read here.
       | 
       | My approach to knowledge management has been super simple.
       | Everything is in git, in a big directory structure i've
       | organically grown over time. I have so many notes.. 7 to 8
       | thousands of them.
       | 
       | Keeping it in git has allowed me flexibility to use it how i see
       | fit. Sometimes i'm in emacs/nevom. Most the time i'm in sublime
       | text because I have workspaces per project/concept.
       | 
       | Finally, for mobile, I push them all to my own gitea instance. I
       | rarely need access to my notes on mobile but it's been something
       | i've been thinking about more.
       | 
       | If anyone has any recommendations on how to read a directory of
       | text files on android, i'm all ears.
        
       | sroerick wrote:
       | org-roam is pretty good. I came from Obsidian and wanted to build
       | out some extra personal features for Bible notes.
       | 
       | I made the switch to org-roam because i wanted to use elisp to
       | develop instead of JS obsidian plugins.
       | 
       | It took me a while to get over the learning curve but I'm very
       | happy with it
        
       | syngrog66 wrote:
       | notes.txt
       | 
       | add choice of encryption, vcs, backup. solved for many decades
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2024-12-26 23:00 UTC)