[HN Gopher] In Maine, remote jobs give prisoners a lifeline
___________________________________________________________________
In Maine, remote jobs give prisoners a lifeline
Author : dvektor
Score : 61 points
Date : 2024-12-24 17:16 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.bostonglobe.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.bostonglobe.com)
| sokoloff wrote:
| https://archive.is/4ZOzU
| jmclnx wrote:
| Let's hope this expands to other states.
| csallen wrote:
| _> Some crime victims would rather have their perpetrators "rot
| in hell" than see them have these kinds of privileges, said
| Randall Liberty, commissioner of the Maine Department of
| Corrections, and victims are notified, and their concerns
| considered, when offenders line up remote jobs._
|
| I can understand those very human feelings. But the state justice
| system should not be retributive, no matter how much victims want
| it to be.
|
| It should focus on protection (keeping criminals off the streets
| and the rest of us safe), deterrence, rehabilitation, and
| restitution. And its constraints should be fairness,
| transparency, and speed/efficiency.
| baggy_trough wrote:
| Retribution contributes to deterrence, as well as benefiting
| the society as a whole by promoting justice.
| soperj wrote:
| That's why you have no recidivism in the US?
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| > Retribution contributes to deterrence,
|
| the actual data on this refutes that. rehabilitation focused
| countries overhelmingly have less recidivism.
|
| increasing access and quality of education, early
| intervention like head start, wicc and other "wellfare"
| programs as well as free healthcare are much more likely to
| reduce crime rates by a significant amount.
| RiverCrochet wrote:
| Only if a leading entity emerges and keeps power, but history
| doesn't show that a single entity can keep power for very
| long in the grand timeline of humanity.
|
| And that fact--constant threat/change of power--makes the
| following difficult:
|
| - Having an idea of societal benefit or justice that does not
| align with a person's feelings (leader of the ruling party)
|
| - Owning land or real property with conveniences like
| electricity or water - your territory is always under threat
| and unless you have large numbers of allies you will
| eventually get swallowed or forced to obey directives of the
| ruling party.
|
| Furthermore:
|
| - Having large numbers of allies, or being part of or
| strongly affiliated with the ruling entity just puts you in
| the same situation as ruling entity which is causing the
| first 2 things so it can survive.
| Tronno wrote:
| Satisfying the desire for retribution has to be one of the
| system's goals, otherwise people would take matters into their
| own hands. However, you are correct that it shouldn't be the
| main goal, or even a major one.
| vidarh wrote:
| Many things make people want to take justice into their hands
| without us yielding to those who are prepared to commit
| crimes to punish others.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| > But the state justice system should not be retributive, no
| matter how much victims want it to be.
|
| Perhaps you're looking for a form of government other than
| democracy?
| sonofhans wrote:
| It blows my mind to see you downvoted for this most simple and
| straightforward ethical statement -- justice and retribution
| are not the same, and the state should be in the business of
| justice.
|
| From Plato to the Tao, Christianity and Buddhism, Reverend King
| and Gandhi, most careful thinkers about ethics, philosophy, and
| government over thousands of years have come to the same
| conclusion. The purposes of punishment are to remove a
| dangerous person from circulation, to make amends to victims,
| and to deter other potential offenders. Revenge does not enter
| into it.
|
| Replies here are talking about how good revenge feels, and
| threatening mob violence if revenge isn't granted, but consider
| that those responses are in a context where there is little
| justice already. We know in our society that injustice is not
| often punished, and that revenge (e.g., shooting a healthcare
| CEO) feels great. That is further proof of the importance of
| justice, not an argument for retribution.
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| The official US Federal Government position (and sentencing
| law) is that promoting correction and rehabilitation are
| prohibited from sentencing considerations when it comes to
| imprisonment (and any imprisonment sentence that includes such
| considerations will be challenged and reversed for
| resentencing). A prison sentence is a punishment, not a means
| for correction and/or rehabilitation:
|
| 18 U.S. Code SS 3582 - Imposition of a sentence of
| imprisonment....
|
| (a)Factors To Be Considered in Imposing a Term of
| Imprisonment.-- The court, in determining whether to impose a
| term of imprisonment, and, if a term of imprisonment is to be
| imposed, in determining the length of the term, shall consider
| the factors set forth in section 3553(a) to the extent that
| they are applicable, recognizing that imprisonment is not an
| appropriate means of promoting correction and rehabilitation
| vidarh wrote:
| Yet another reason why, if I somehow magically found myself
| on a US jury (given I'm not American, that's not an actual
| concern), would find it morally impossible to vote to convict
| anyone.
| maxerickson wrote:
| That's about the term, not the conditions and resulting
| impact on the prisoner.
|
| Of course, people seem to prefer inhumane, brutal conditions,
| regardless of the impact.
| tiahura wrote:
| There is too much emphasis on incarceration. It seems like a fair
| amount of correctional system bureaucracy could be replaced by
| public horsewhipping. Send a message and send 'em on their way.
| deadbabe wrote:
| Are there any software engineers here working from prison?
| dvektor wrote:
| Yeah there are two of us in the Maine system working as
| developers, both for [0]Unlocked Labs.
|
| [0] https://unlockedlabs.org
| i_love_retros wrote:
| They mentioned in the article that LinkedIn got blocked
| because of the chat feature. Do they quite heavily restrict
| what sites you can access then?
| dvektor wrote:
| Yeah it's essentially on a case by case basis. All the
| remote workers at this point have earned considerable trust
| and have more access than a typical college student does. I
| think I am one of only a couple that weren't required to be
| a post-graduate to apply, so there is at the very least a
| few years worth of opportunities to mess up the privilege
| before that trust is given. But yes, all the typical things
| you would imagine still obviously blocked (social media,
| adult content, etc)
| i_love_retros wrote:
| Interesting, thanks for the info.
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| Objectively good policy. Helps better distinguish violent vs
| nonviolent crimes as far as rehabilitation
| _DeadFred_ wrote:
| Fun fact, a lot of those new joyless McDonalds remodels had their
| CAD work done by UNICOR.
|
| Remember, prison guards get special bonus' for managing inmates
| that make the prison money. Now imagine that you are
| constitutionally a slave (according to the Thirteenth Amendment)
| and that your prison guard's bonus is tied to your work. You
| don't get to say no to extra shifts. You don't get to take sick
| days. You don't get to stop the line (for those making physical
| products). You don't get to challenge the safety of your
| workstation (for those making physical products).
|
| I'm not saying these programs shouldn't exist, but you need
| actual safeguards to prevent the current rampant abuse of
| prisoners (at least on the UNICOR side). Guards should never be
| 'special UNICOR employees' tied to the program (they really start
| to see inmates as slaves, their job only exists as long as their
| facility's UNICOR program is 'successful') and should never have
| bonus' tied to inmate work output. Currently both of these things
| occur.
| nickff wrote:
| The Thirteenth Amendment does not say that prisoners are
| slaves. The text (of section one) is: "Neither slavery nor
| involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof
| the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within
| the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."
|
| This means that someone _could_ be sentenced to slavery or
| indentured servitude. _Federal_ prisons require able inmates to
| work; this is a form of indentured servitude, but it does not
| necessarily extend to state prisons (or municipal jails).
|
| Slaves are property of others (until their death or a decision
| by their owner to free them), and can be traded or sold.
| Indentured servants are engaged for a specified period of time,
| usually to one specific employer.
| codazoda wrote:
| I don't believe they argued that the 13th amendment says
| prisoners are slaves. They only asked you to imagine that you
| are and they pointed out that it's allowed "according to the
| Thirteenth amendment". At least, that was my interpretation.
| nickff wrote:
| My read is that they were asking the reader to imagine they
| (the reader) are a prisoner, and thus a slave according to
| the thirteenth amendment. Even under your reading, that
| comment is a pure hypothetical, because federal prisoners
| are _not_ slaves. I happen to believe that the federal
| government has enslaved people in a different context, very
| recently, _conscripts_.
| jmholla wrote:
| The very amendment you've been quoting explicitly calls
| it slavery.
|
| What would this system look like if slavery wasn't
| excused for incarceration?
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| > Slaves are property of others (until their death or a
| decision by their owner to free them)
|
| That is chattel slavery. There are other forms of slavery,
| indentured servitude being one of them. De facto slavery is
| the term of art for what is going on here.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| The term of art that I'm familiar with is "unfree labor" or
| "modern slavery", both of which are widely used. Either
| way, every country has agreed it's at least nominally a
| human rights issue via the Forced Labor Convention ratified
| by all diplomatically significant nations except the US.
| mckn1ght wrote:
| Indentured servitude was a contract one would enter into
| voluntarily with a perceived benefit on the other side. I
| think you'd have to squint pretty hard to argue that every
| criminal doing labor today voluntarily signed up for it to
| brighten their futures.
| nickff wrote:
| Well, supporters of state authority could argue that the
| contract was a prior one, the 'social contract'. As it
| happens, I am a philosophical anarchist, so that doesn't
| work for me, but most discussants here probably believe in
| political authority of some sort.
| mckn1ght wrote:
| Equating "the social contract" with the type of legal
| construction involved with actual indentured servitude is
| some real "a taco is a hotdog" thinking.
| nickff wrote:
| Nobody currently alive actually voted on anything related
| to the US Constitution, any of the first fifteen
| amendments, or many important laws, because they weren't
| alive. I don't see how the Thirteenth Amendment is any
| different from the many laws which were enacted and last
| amended before you or I was alive. Either the populace
| has consented to all of that body of law, or none of it.
| a12k wrote:
| I think that they're saying that the concept of a social
| contract does not refer to a literal contract or legal
| document, or document of any kind, but rather simply a
| way of treating each other implicit in society.
|
| Notably neither the Constitution nor its Amendments is
| the "social contract."
| dyauspitr wrote:
| Dream frontline engineering manager situation
| mistrial9 wrote:
| UNICOR tried to get into electronics recycling here in California
| under SB20.. while Google and MSFT and Apple ran away as fast as
| possible! not just the management either, lots of ordinary
| employees in those huge companies knew that electronics recycling
| is a liability, not "maximizing revenue" .. meanwhile UNICOR
| looks for more hooks for more contracts.. UNICOR has no concern
| about the outcome of electronics recycling .. they would make
| guranteed trash throw-away anything if it meant a new prison
| labor contract.
|
| real
|
| _edit_ Walmart uses prison labor to assemble bicycles for kids..
| source: eyewitness at a store in California
| itronitron wrote:
| This just reflects that the parole system is broken, among other
| things.
|
| This wouldn't bother me if the USA had universal basic income,
| public healthcare, free university education, and lower homeless
| rates.
| i_love_retros wrote:
| > This wouldn't bother me if the USA had universal basic
| income, public healthcare, free university education, and lower
| homeless rates.
|
| So sad that I don't see just one of those happening in America
| let alone all
| yyyyz wrote:
| Comes with free healthcare benefits too.
| dvektor wrote:
| I really hope this doesn't devolve into just demonizing everyone
| who is incarcerated, and acting like making bad choices as a
| teenager means you deserve to be broke and unsuccessful for the
| rest of your life.
|
| I would hope that society would rather me work and pay taxes,
| offsetting the cost of keeping me here, and giving me hope,
| responsibilities, discipline and a reason to continue making good
| life decisions when I am released.
|
| 95+% of those incarcerated are getting released one day.. People
| who have nothing to lose, no sense of self worth, or any feelings
| of identity with the rest of society are likely not people you
| want moving in next door to you.
|
| I might be in prison but I lead a team of developers and
| contribute to open source regularly. I found my passion and I am
| now a contributing, tax paying member of society and no longer
| identify with the prison subculture at all.
|
| It's difficult to see how this outcome could be viewed in any way
| as negative. I know that I made poor decisions, and I am not
| proud of them, or who I was at the time at all. I wanted to
| change my life and Maine gave me an opportunity to do that
| through hard work and I am extremely grateful for it.
| grayfaced wrote:
| I think most of the criticism comes from those worried it will
| lead to worse conditions. As long as the primary goal is
| education and reintegration, then it's great. If it becomes a
| program of squeezing unwilling prisoners to undercut
| competition then I have big problems with it. I fear the
| natural course will be cutting prison funding and putting
| pressure on these programs to bring in money to fund prison
| necessities.
| willis936 wrote:
| Indeed. If I have to ask myself questions like "was this
| product made with forced labor?", "what about coerced?", and
| "where is the line drawn?" then the right answer is to just
| walk away.
| dvektor wrote:
| I see what you're saying for sure. but at the end of the day,
| allowing inmates to have jobs both takes pressure off of the
| cost/budget for their incarceration, and simultaneously is
| drastically lowering the likelihood that those inmates will
| return (and cost more taxpayer $).
|
| I guess what I mean is, they can't end up squeezing prisoners
| any more than they already are: in many places 8 hour prison
| jobs paying less than 50 cents a day, when a phone call costs
| $3.00+ an hour and a single ramen noodle costs $2.00+.
|
| That stuff significantly contributes to the prison mentality
| and group-think mindset of 'the authorities are your enemy'.
| Even if you don't come in with that mentality, after being
| surrounded by it in conditions like that, you'll very likely
| be brainwashed by the time you leave and the cycle
| unfortunately begins.
| jmholla wrote:
| > allowing inmates to have jobs both takes pressure off of
| the cost/budget for their incarceration
|
| No. This CANNOT be part of the argument for prisoner's
| having jobs. If we as a society have decided that the only
| route to protecting society is to strip people of their
| rights and freedom, the we MUST be the one's to fund it. I
| don't have a problem with prisoners having jobs, in fact I
| definitely agree that it needs to be a part of
| rehabilitation. But a system that depends on abusing others
| to prop itself up should not exist. And this system cannot
| exist and deliver the actual results we want of correction
| and rehabilitation if there is a monetary incentive because
| there will always be someone that will come along and
| selfishly twist the system for their own gain.
|
| I think all proceeds of prisoner work should remain solely
| that of the prisoners (potentially garnishable depending on
| their crimes).
| dvektor wrote:
| I see where you are coming from, and I am not saying you
| are fundamentally wrong at all.
|
| What I can say, is that at this point in my life, I am
| genuinely happy to be able to not only pay taxes, but
| additionally offset some of the taxpayer money that my
| decisions cost. Regardless of whether or not I feel like
| I still belong here at this point, I made those decisions
| and I knew the consequences. I am just grateful to be in
| a position where that is even an option, because so many
| are not.
| throwup238 wrote:
| _> I think all proceeds of prisoner work should remain
| solely that of the prisoners (potentially garnishable
| depending on their crimes)._
|
| 80-90% of the after tax salary should go to a fund that
| the prisoner receives the day they're released, with the
| rest going to commissary. Maybe a monthly disbursement if
| voters want to be paternalistic about it.
|
| When convicts are released on probation to a halfway
| home, it should be with a pocket full of change so they
| can start rebuilding their life - buy a beater car to be
| able to commute, put a down payment on their own place,
| and so on.
| itronitron wrote:
| If a prisoner's work offsets the cost of them being in prison,
| then there is an incentive for the system to have prisoners.
| spc476 wrote:
| "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a
| punishment for crime whereof the party have been duly
| convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place
| subject to their jurisdiction." -- U.S. Constitution,
| Amendment 13.
| mulmen wrote:
| The 13th Amendment doesn't change incentives. The existence
| of amendments proves that the Constitution can evolve.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| Enforce paying prisoners fair-market wages. That, in addition
| to providing prisoners with funds so they can start with at
| least _some_ amount of money when they 're released (many
| will face many months if not years searching for a job that
| will take them!), also prevents the government from using
| slave labor to undercut prices of, say, fire prevention
| crews.
|
| And from these fair wages, deduct the rent of an average
| single-bedroom apartment.
| PittleyDunkin wrote:
| How about we treat prisoners as humans having value to begin
| with? Americans should start with the fundamentals before moving
| on to exploitation.
| jimbob45 wrote:
| Remote jobs because of the altruism of these Maine corporations?
| Or because prisoners come cheap and don't have access to 99% of
| the job market?
|
| I don't want prisoners to be eligible for any jobs. They distort
| market wages heavily and take away jobs that other, more
| deserving, individuals could have. If you want to argue that they
| should be job eligible, then they should just be free in the
| first place at that point.
| matt3210 wrote:
| How can I compete with a prisoner that works for ramen?
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2024-12-24 23:00 UTC)