[HN Gopher] Telling Stories in Athenian Law [pdf] (2002)
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Telling Stories in Athenian Law [pdf] (2002)
Author : asimpletune
Score : 29 points
Date : 2024-12-22 11:49 UTC (11 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (classicalstudies.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (classicalstudies.org)
| tiahura wrote:
| See eg, David Ball - Theater Tips and Strategies for Jury Trials
|
| Theme and narrative are at the core of trying a case. HOWEVER,
| having tried jury trials, my experience is that jurors focus on
| the star witness for Plaintiff, the star witness for Defendant,
| and then decide which one they believe. Narrative definitely
| helps shape the approach, but all the psychodrama in the world
| won't make an unbelievable witness believable.
| A_D_E_P_T wrote:
| > _" Another approach to the speech would be to take its
| rhetorical and performative features as evidence for the view
| that Athenian trials are essentially rhetorical struggles between
| opposing litigants for a status-based supremacy, and are
| generally unconcerned with the strict applicability of the law to
| the relevant facts."_
|
| There are two things worth highlighting that the author doesn't
| really go into.
|
| First, as Richard Posner put it in The Problems of
| Jurisprudence," _" Natural Law had more bite in Greek thought
| than it has in ours."_ In other words, the law was primarily a
| manner of sublimating the instincts for revenge and for fair
| play. It would be quite correct to say that Greek law _was_
| Natural Law, and that they would not allow codes or precedents to
| twist the administration of the law into something unjust. This
| is a point in their favor.
|
| Second -- and this is seen throughout the Greek world, including
| very famously in the Iliad and in the trial of Socrates --
| passing judgment was an extension of the sovereign's right to
| govern, and virtually all sovereigns believed that the judgments
| they pass _should be popular with the people._ Even if a matter
| of Natural Law is clear, they might not prosecute it if it is
| unpopular -- or, conversely, they might use the sovereign right
| to administer the law to pursue unjust but popular ends. (Though
| this was uncommon and the practice of ostracism may have grown to
| soften this urge.) This is a point against the Greeks.
|
| So: A legal system not beholden to black-letter law, but very
| sensitive to popular sentiment. Of course stories had an awful
| lot of power. Much more than they have today.
|
| In the film Pirates of the Caribbean (2003) there is a "pirate
| code" -- but at certain points the pirates just break the code.
| The excuse Captain Hector Barbossa (Barbarossa) gives to his
| snooty and respectable prisoners is that "The code is more what
| you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules." That is the essence
| of Greek Law.
| asimpletune wrote:
| In the quote from the essay the author is actually paraphrasing
| some en vogue, literary type analyses that were happening then,
| around 2010 I think. He's not expressing support for this style
| of forensic literature in any way.
|
| Instead, the author argues pretty persuasively that ancient
| Athenian law is more similar to modern analogues than is
| frequently understood, precisely because people who argue
| otherwise fail to recognize the role of storytelling in our
| modern legal system. Later, in the essay's conclusion, he says
| that the use of story telling by ancient Athenians was more
| free wheeling, but he goes on to say that it's was often all
| they had to go off of in many situations. The death of
| Eratosthenes, in his example, lacked any kind of forensics so
| both sides basically had to tell a story that conformed to the
| same set of facts.
|
| Anyways, the natural law stuff and popular opinion also play a
| role of course. Antigone for example risks death to recover her
| dead brother's body even though it's been made illegal by the
| tyrant of Thebes. Clearly Sophocles is a pretty standup guy and
| Antigone is sympathetic, so it makes sense. Also there were all
| sorts of demagogues who hijacked their democracy, like Kleon
| who convinced the Athenians to reject the soartan peace
| proposal, which was probably something they regretted
| tremendously.
| atmosx wrote:
| > [...] should be popular with the people [...]
|
| IMO thee is some nuance here. Unlike the Judaic tradition,
| where intent shapes moral judgment, 5th-century BCE Greeks
| prioritised consequences over motivations. What mattered was
| the result, not the actor's internal disposition during or
| before the act.
|
| The Greek mythology, is philosophically relevant to the way
| they thought. In Hesiod's Theogony we find Dike. Dike, goddess
| of justice, renders decisions but relies on Zeus and his agents
| Kratos (strength) and Bia (force) to enforce them. Yet, even
| Zeus is bound by Themis, representing primordial institutions
| and order. This underscores that power must respect established
| customs and societal norms to endure. Disregarding these leads
| to downfall and replacement by a leader who upholds them.
| Should this bear any weight? Assuming humans are social animals
| - I don't see how it's something we should straight-up dismiss.
| Maybe there's a balance between making trials popularity
| contests and completely dismissing the public opinion.
|
| Socrates' trial reflects this principle. His judges, fearing
| unrest from his supporters, offered exile not out of personal
| sympathy, but to prevent revolt.
|
| The Greeks understood that governance depends on securing the
| support of key factions. No ruler, however autocratic, can
| disregard the foundational structures and collective will
| without risking collapse. IMO they were not wrong, this is true
| today as it was true back then.
| throw0101b wrote:
| I found the book _Ancient Greek law in the 21st century_ , edited
| by Paula Jean Perlman to be an interesting read as a layman:
|
| * https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/36708211-ancient-greek-l...
|
| Some interesting stuff on slaves having debt (is the debt
| transferred with the sale of a slave, or kept with the slave's
| master?) and owning things (like one of the largest banks in
| Athens, since finance was not an 'honourable' way to make money,
| so 'relegated' to less reputable people).
| kemitchell wrote:
| > In thinking about our own law, most people would acknowledge
| the existence of literary and rhetorical features but these are
| generally considered irrelevant to the true work of law, and in
| many cases are judged to conflict with that work.
|
| I found this unsupported assertion surprising.
|
| I haven't watched many legal dramas, but my secondhand impression
| of both TV and film is that they tend to make the US legal system
| seem a lot more dramatic, and a lot less procedural, than it
| really is.
|
| Professors and visiting lawyers explicitly acknowledge narrative
| building as a skill throughout my time in law school.
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